A plea for balance! [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Orthureon

04-26-2010, 07:24 PM

So after the nerf to Spell DPS output, or rather the fix to resists, I am nearly unstoppable 1v1 in PVP and I could easily kill the epic x4 level 95 guards in Qeynos if I had a bit more power regen. Point being I see this as imbalanced and also not very entertaining. I am not trying to be selfish to "bring more challenge to the class", but rather to tone down two classes which are obviously overpowered.My suggestions:Crusaders should have these abilities adjusted:<li style="padding-left: 30px;">Spells casting times should be slightly increased by 0.25s per spell. Spells went from 1s or longer cast times to 0.5 nearly across the board. </li><li style="padding-left: 30px;">Lower the base crit multiplier to 1.25/1.25 Spell/CAs. They are a hybrid after all.</li><li style="padding-left: 30px;">The Shadow AA ability that affects the damage on one-handed weapons should be changed to 25% accuracy.</li><li style="padding-left: 30px;">10% reduction to spell damage across the board for both Crusaders.</li>Shadowknight should have these abilities adjusted:<ul><li>Shadowknights Furor - Changed to a 15s parry, no riposte, no 20% increase to spell damage, no taunts and no immunity to interrupts. Just an ability to avoid damage. </li><li>Intelligence Line - One point in the Healing amount/resist passive ability automatically caps Reaver at 4% healing per spell in PVE and 2.6% healing in PVP. This needs to be fixed. </li><li>Lower the healing amount on these abilities in PVP and PVE: Tap Veins, Devour Vitae and Unholy Blessing. </li></ul>As for Paladins I am not sure, but their healing capabilities are far too high I know that much. I would have more input but I haven't played my Paladin much after dinging 90.

Nakash

04-27-2010, 03:58 AM

I smell a warrior in a crusader pelt.in short words:Alway same Method to try to get a class nerfed.Cry loud often and long for nerfs.

Phelon_Skellhound

04-27-2010, 05:13 AM

If this is in jest.... not funnyIf this is for real.... ummm o.O seriously?I dont do PVP but this is asking for a red name lock....

Hallowell

04-27-2010, 11:13 AM

Uhm..okay..lets see...SK's dont get root afaik. they dont get a specific heal / cure (not at mid lvls that is), cant run and cast (only 2 spells which I know of), the knockbacks knocks the target out of melee range, making it even worse if the SKs are rooted. What else...Wardens on the other hand.... well - take a look. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Mavrin

04-27-2010, 12:14 PM

I have over 30K hps my primary single target heal is 2k, sure my heals are way over powered. I'll have what this guys smoking plz and make mine a double. I smell whiner guard who doesn't know the class doing the chant.

Orthureon

04-27-2010, 12:56 PM

<cite>Azzaroth@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I smell a warrior in a crusader pelt.in short words:Alway same Method to try to get a class nerfed.Cry loud often and long for nerfs.</blockquote>Simply look up my name, any person that claims Crusaders are not overpowered are either kidding themselves or are really terrible at playing these easymode classes. Guess what folks I sitll play my SK all the time, I don't have any hidden agenda, I am just aware of what this class has become.

Orthureon

04-27-2010, 12:57 PM

<cite>Mavrin wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have over 30K hps my primary single target heal is 2k, sure my heals are way over powered. I'll have what this guys smoking plz and make mine a double. I smell whiner guard who doesn't know the class doing the chant.</blockquote>30k hp... nice number indeed. Funny thing is, my buddy that plays his Paladin (Valkorr) is specced completely offensive yet his lowest heal (not ward) is around 3.5-4kOh btw you guys like my new sig? Yeah I am def not an SK.

AziBam

04-27-2010, 04:38 PM

<cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote>So after the nerf to Spell DPS output, or rather the fix to resists, I am nearly unstoppable 1v1 in PVP and I could easily kill the epic x4 level 95 guards in Qeynos if I had a bit more power regen. Point being I see this as imbalanced and also not very entertaining. I am not trying to be selfish to "bring more challenge to the class", but rather to tone down two classes which are obviously overpowered.My suggestions:Crusaders should have these abilities adjusted:<li style="padding-left: 30px;">Spells casting times should be slightly increased by 0.25s per spell. Spells went from 1s or longer cast times to 0.5 nearly across the board. No, why would we want a permanent penalty in place compared to our tank counterparts? There is a reason why they were changed, it was imbalanced. Even with the shorter cast times we still can't cast a large number of our abilities on the move unlike others. I'm not complaining about it but it's just true. </li><li style="padding-left: 30px;">Lower the base crit multiplier to 1.25/1.25 Spell/CAs. They are a hybrid after all. NO, Crusaders are already behind 20% in this category so it would be stupid to nerf it further. </li><li style="padding-left: 30px;">The Shadow AA ability that affects the damage on one-handed weapons should be changed to 25% accuracy. No. I'd much rather see what Darkonx has proposed regarding two handers. In my opinion, the problem isn't total damage output...it's how much can be done when we are at our most defensive with shield equipped compared to warriors needing to DW. I certainly see zerks, and paladins putting out roughly comparable numbers to our own. Nothing that would show me that I think we are grossply OP in the total amount of dps. Just in how we can still do it with a shield on. Have you seen what well played zerks can do this expansion? It's nice. </li><li style="padding-left: 30px;">10% reduction to spell damage across the board for both Crusaders. Why? Hrm, up our melee/spell crit bonus to equal the other fighters and I might be talked into this. </li>Shadowknight should have these abilities adjusted:<ul><li>Shadowknights Furor - Changed to a 15s parry, no riposte, no 20% increase to spell damage, no taunts and no immunity to interrupts. Just an ability to avoid damage. In truth, I'd be ok with this other than the interrupts. Crusaders are far more interruptable than their counterpart tanks due to spells rather than CAs and I think it would still be in keeping with the nature of the ability. </li><li>Intelligence Line - One point in the Healing amount/resist passive ability automatically caps Reaver at 4% healing per spell in PVE and 2.6% healing in PVP. This needs to be fixed. If this is true, then I'd agree that this appears to be a bug. I wasn't aware that reaver went higher than it's stated value(s) from that ability. </li><li>Lower the healing amount on these abilities in PVP and PVE: Tap Veins, Devour Vitae and Unholy Blessing. Just, no. At least in PVE. I don't play on a pvp server and in fairness I haven't played the BGs much with my SK since the resist fix. (Been playing other toons.) Perhaps there is an argument to be made for the heal values being too great in PVP. I'd have to defer to others on that issue at this point. </li></ul>As for Paladins I am not sure, but their healing capabilities are far too high I know that much. I would have more input but I haven't played my Paladin much after dinging 90.</blockquote>In other words, pretty much revert the entire much-needed revamp? I think you have a few valid points. Collectively it's WAAAAY too much though. It doesn't seem like you are just trolling here but with the butchery you are proposing it's a bit hard to think otherwise.

TheGeneral

04-28-2010, 04:57 PM

I don't think people will be satisfied until SK's are nerfed back into being underpowered and unwanted in groups and raids. What needs to be done? Fix guardians.... thats what needs to happen. SK's and Zerkers are right where they need to be. The two hander thing sounds nice, but until they put two handers in the game worth a [Removed for Content]... and I dont mean one off Theer, then no.

Mychel

04-28-2010, 05:11 PM

I wonder if any of these people crying out for a nerf knew what it was like playing an SK For years before we got a little attention?was a time not very long ago when being an SK was more of a chore than anything else.

ZerkerDwarf

04-28-2010, 07:20 PM

<cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote> I don't have any hidden agenda, I am just aware of what this class has become.</blockquote>You mean played by dev and therefore [Removed for Content] from rubbish to godmode without any thought for balance?Balancing is not putting a heavyweight where once had been the leighter weight.Am I Envious? Yes.Jealous? Yes.Angry? Yes.Sad? Yes.

RafaelSmith

04-28-2010, 11:28 PM

<cite>Mychel@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote> before we got a little attention?</blockquote>a little? LOL

Orthureon

04-29-2010, 02:26 AM

I think most of you are overreactiing... I mean think about it, if they were to actually tone down the SK(Crusaders in general) they don't need to USE all of the things I suggested from the list. But some do deserve a much needed "toning down".There is no single thing that makes the SK overpowered it is the potent combination of abilities that does.

Nakash

04-29-2010, 03:44 AM

I am tired of people who dont play there class to the limit and cry nerf on classes.A mod should close this. This is a nerf cry. Nothing more.

Shareana

04-29-2010, 08:19 AM

Everyone is entitled to their opinion as long as it is posted within the rules of the forum guidelines. Let's keep it that way please <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

AziBam

04-29-2010, 09:33 AM

<cite>ZerkerDwarf wrote:</cite><blockquote>You mean played by dev and therefore [Removed for Content] from rubbish to godmode without any thought for balance?</blockquote>I know you aren't the only one saying this. Other than picking up comments from others (unsubstantiated?)where are you getting this idea?Xelgad posted in SF beta that he plays...dun dun DUN...a zerker. The only rumor...RUMOR...I've heard about SK and a dev connection is that the new producer plays one. You know, the brand, spankin new guy. Even if Aeralik or another dev had played an SK at some time (which we all know that he didn't) I still wouldn't buy into the dev godmode hotline theory. SKs, and to a lesser extent Paladins were due for a revamp. They got one. Nothing more, nothing less. They were neither the first class to receive this treatment nor the last.

Mychel

04-29-2010, 10:30 AM

Isn't it lovely that Shadowknights can't even have a discussion in our own forum with a bunch of Emo Tanks spraying their tears all over the place... Makes my Hateful little heart just sing!

Orthureon

04-29-2010, 11:14 AM

<cite>Azzaroth@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am tired of people who dont play there class to the limit and cry nerf on classes.A mod should close this. This is a nerf cry. Nothing more.</blockquote>I am not sure what you are saying honestly... I am sure better geared SK/Pallies than me can solo even more impressive stuff. However, I can solo 95 x4 Guards, I can pull multiple 3ups on me at once in the new instances and kill them pretty easily. I can also solo some of the named in these instances and that is with not so great of gear. I am not the best Crusader by far, but that is still a little over the top, especially since I am a "sub-par crusader" as you pointed out. I understand that a nerf to the class might limit some peoples ability to perform well, but the truly good players will not complain at all.

Vulkan_NTooki

04-29-2010, 11:58 AM

OP.. could u please explain why u feel crusaders are imbalanced?I mean.. u keep telling us how well u solo thing.. That doesnt warrant a nerf of an archetype..The secret to successfully solo is to work out working strategies, learn from others, get the right gear(not nescessarily raid gear), and try and try and try again untill u make progress and find strats that work. This can be done with any class if played solo right.

RafaelSmith

04-29-2010, 02:34 PM

<cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote>.There is no single thing that makes the SK overpowered it is the potent combination of abilities that does.</blockquote>This.What makes SKs OP when compared to other fighters is all the things the class is able to do without any sorta "penalty".You are correct its no single thing......Crazy DPS, etc... put Crazy DPS + high surviveability + ... ... together and you have a OP class.SOE went overboard in "fixing" the subclass.........they dont need to go overboard in correcting that....they need to tone some things down.......IMO it needs to be survivability while pumping out high DPS/aggro. If you put out DPS like a Mage or Scout then you should take DMG like one. The highest DPS fighter should be the hardest to heal and keep up. Thats currently not the case.........especially at the heroic and low tier raid level.The few times I play my Guard.........with is crap gear.......even in somwhat trivial instances the moment I put on all my DPS gear and duel wield the healer knows it........Most healers out there cannot tell the difference if a SK is being "defensive" or "offensive".

Orthureon

04-29-2010, 02:51 PM

<cite>Akuu@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>OP.. could u please explain why u feel crusaders are imbalanced?I mean.. u keep telling us how well u solo thing.. That doesnt warrant a nerf of an archetype..The secret to successfully solo is to work out working strategies, learn from others, get the right gear(not nescessarily raid gear), and try and try and try again untill u make progress and find strats that work. This can be done with any class if played solo right.</blockquote>Yes I can, it is very simple. They do too much DPS for a tank, they heal too much for a tank and to top it off they have decent utility to avoid/mitigate incoming damage; Shadowknight's Furor, Divine Aura, Myth clicky (which will absorb all physical attacks for 8s that do more than 60% of your HP), Blood Siphon, Bloodletter (has saved me countless times).Now lets go in-depth (these are numbers mainly that I see when I cast the spells, all ad3s except Unholy Blessing):<ul><li>Reaver: Heals the Sk for the listed amounts PER mob hit; Regular healing amount 2% in PVE, 1.6% in PVP, buffed via AA 4% in PVE and 2.6% in PVP.</li><li>Unholy Blessing: For me it heals for around 1700-1900 per trigger, 5 triggers, decent recast, fast casting time.</li><li>Tap Veins: Heals for around 3300-3800 PER target hit. Can be buffed up even further with an adorn.</li><li>Devour Vitae: Heals for 2600-3200, can have an adorn which will add smaller heals that trigger off of each mob in the linked encounter. Around 11s recast.</li><li>Grim Harbringer: Parses very well in the DPS catagory, heals for around 3-8% of an SKs average heal parse.</li><li>Caress Feedback Adorn: Heals for around 250 every incoming melee attack.</li><li>Add in all the various warding, healing proc gear.</li><li>Now add all this together!</li></ul>

Bruener

04-29-2010, 05:30 PM

<cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Akuu@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>OP.. could u please explain why u feel crusaders are imbalanced?I mean.. u keep telling us how well u solo thing.. That doesnt warrant a nerf of an archetype..The secret to successfully solo is to work out working strategies, learn from others, get the right gear(not nescessarily raid gear), and try and try and try again untill u make progress and find strats that work. This can be done with any class if played solo right.</blockquote>Yes I can, it is very simple. They do too much DPS for a tank, they heal too much for a tank and to top it off they have decent utility to avoid/mitigate incoming damage; Shadowknight's Furor, Divine Aura, Myth clicky (which will absorb all physical attacks for 8s that do more than 60% of your HP), Blood Siphon, Bloodletter (has saved me countless times).Now lets go in-depth (these are numbers mainly that I see when I cast the spells, all ad3s except Unholy Blessing):<ul><li>Reaver: Heals the Sk for the listed amounts PER mob hit; Regular healing amount 2% in PVE, 1.6% in PVP, buffed via AA 4% in PVE and 2.6% in PVP. Reaver does a whopping 80-150 hps in a raid situation when tanking. That is with the enhancements to make it 4%. Extremely weak.</li><li>Unholy Blessing: For me it heals for around 1700-1900 per trigger, 5 triggers, decent recast, fast casting time. Not worth the time to cast it. 1700 heals is a joke for the amount of time this thing takes to cast and for how much mobs are hitting. SKs are much better off leaving the healing to healers since they can heal everything easily without a lot of thought.</li><li>Tap Veins: Heals for around 3300-3800 PER target hit. Can be buffed up even further with an adorn. The adornment is not worth getting because the damage and heal from it are extremely low. Also like all the other lifetaps SKs get they are basically useless with a decent healer around. Sure TV CAN do that much in healing but most of the time your lucky to get a few hundred heals out of simply because your health is already green.</li><li>Devour Vitae: Heals for 2600-3200, can have an adorn which will add smaller heals that trigger off of each mob in the linked encounter. Around 11s recast. See above lifetap info. I think I am lucky to even get double digit hps from devour vitae in raids.</li><li>Grim Harbringer: Parses very well in the DPS catagory, heals for around 3-8% of an SKs average heal parse. You just seem to have this huge misconception about lifetaps. Grim harbringer is a nice DPS proc...the heal side of it again does practically nothing because healers are keeping your health green.</li><li>Caress Feedback Adorn: Heals for around 250 every incoming melee attack. Not sure I know any SK that actually uses this adorn because it is so weak. Maybe if all they did was BG, but even than there is much better choices.</li><li>Add in all the various warding, healing proc gear. Gear that is available to all other fighters. In fact I get more heals from Stonewill than all my lifetaps combined..../gasp.</li><li>Now add all this together!</li></ul></blockquote>What SKs do is absolutely no different than what other tanks do. What you forget to mention with Furor is extremely long recast, unlike the Paladin ability which has 1/3 of the recast. Or like Adrenaline that has a 1/4 of the recast time. Or like all the block abilities Guard have that they can basically cycle through regularly. Sorry some SK schools you...but really its not the class its you.

Phelon_Skellhound

04-29-2010, 08:41 PM

I am curious tho... just how tough are these 95 X4 guards? I havent tried em out? This is what u have based your assessment on right? So lets have a few folks here go and solo said guards... Qeynos I am assuming right? So which one are you talking about?Also, before this gets very far but we talking balance for classes in PVP? Game mechanics are a bit different for PVP and PVE as I understand it.

Uskeab

04-29-2010, 09:06 PM

Lots of people/classes can solo well. Not just shadowknights.especially the easier of the new content/scaled tso zones and lame city guards.Nerf every class that can solo!

Orthureon

04-29-2010, 09:22 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Akuu@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>OP.. could u please explain why u feel crusaders are imbalanced?I mean.. u keep telling us how well u solo thing.. That doesnt warrant a nerf of an archetype..The secret to successfully solo is to work out working strategies, learn from others, get the right gear(not nescessarily raid gear), and try and try and try again untill u make progress and find strats that work. This can be done with any class if played solo right.</blockquote>Yes I can, it is very simple. They do too much DPS for a tank, they heal too much for a tank and to top it off they have decent utility to avoid/mitigate incoming damage; Shadowknight's Furor, Divine Aura, Myth clicky (which will absorb all physical attacks for 8s that do more than 60% of your HP), Blood Siphon, Bloodletter (has saved me countless times).Now lets go in-depth (these are numbers mainly that I see when I cast the spells, all ad3s except Unholy Blessing):<ul><li>Reaver: Heals the Sk for the listed amounts PER mob hit; Regular healing amount 2% in PVE, 1.6% in PVP, buffed via AA 4% in PVE and 2.6% in PVP. Reaver does a whopping 80-150 hps in a raid situation when tanking. That is with the enhancements to make it 4%. Extremely weak.</li><li>Unholy Blessing: For me it heals for around 1700-1900 per trigger, 5 triggers, decent recast, fast casting time. Not worth the time to cast it. 1700 heals is a joke for the amount of time this thing takes to cast and for how much mobs are hitting. SKs are much better off leaving the healing to healers since they can heal everything easily without a lot of thought.</li><li>Tap Veins: Heals for around 3300-3800 PER target hit. Can be buffed up even further with an adorn. The adornment is not worth getting because the damage and heal from it are extremely low. Also like all the other lifetaps SKs get they are basically useless with a decent healer around. Sure TV CAN do that much in healing but most of the time your lucky to get a few hundred heals out of simply because your health is already green.</li><li>Devour Vitae: Heals for 2600-3200, can have an adorn which will add smaller heals that trigger off of each mob in the linked encounter. Around 11s recast. See above lifetap info. I think I am lucky to even get double digit hps from devour vitae in raids.</li><li>Grim Harbringer: Parses very well in the DPS catagory, heals for around 3-8% of an SKs average heal parse. You just seem to have this huge misconception about lifetaps. Grim harbringer is a nice DPS proc...the heal side of it again does practically nothing because healers are keeping your health green.</li><li>Caress Feedback Adorn: Heals for around 250 every incoming melee attack. Not sure I know any SK that actually uses this adorn because it is so weak. Maybe if all they did was BG, but even than there is much better choices.</li><li>Add in all the various warding, healing proc gear. Gear that is available to all other fighters. In fact I get more heals from Stonewill than all my lifetaps combined..../gasp.</li><li>Now add all this together!</li></ul></blockquote>What SKs do is absolutely no different than what other tanks do. What you forget to mention with Furor is extremely long recast, unlike the Paladin ability which has 1/3 of the recast. Or like Adrenaline that has a 1/4 of the recast time. Or like all the block abilities Guard have that they can basically cycle through regularly. Sorry some SK schools you...but really its not the class its you.</blockquote>So by your logic it wouldn't matter if they nerfed these abilities? I mean since they do nothing as you say.I guess most people are too short sighted to look at the whole picture. Ok so take for example Caress Feedback , 250 per melee hit is not much I agree, however now add on ward procs from gear and your blessing. So blessing crits for lets say 1900, you get hit by a melee attack; you get healed for 2150 from just feedback and your blessing. If you think that is not much I am not sure what to say. Now since most everyone has warding gear, lets say your "Stonewill III" procs, for 2000, now add those together 4150, that is a huge chunk off of incoming damage. I have honestly went into zones and the healer asks what I want him to do since he doesn't need to heal much. For the hell of it I will give you a list of what would happen if your procs went off at the same time.<ul><li>Stonewill III ------ 2000 point ward proc</li><li>Unholy Blessing -- 1900 per trigger</li><li>Caress Feedback - 250 per trigger</li><li>Grim Harbringer -- 900 point heal</li><li>Devour Vitae ----- 2900 point heal</li><li>Reaver ------------700 (4%) 350 (2%) (more or less depending on HP)</li><li>Fatal Lifetap ------ 1500</li><li>Blood Symphony - 1200</li></ul>Yes that can happen all at once. That is all I am going to say in this thread honestly. I posted my opinion on this thread, other Crusaders are afraid of getting nerfed because they could not play their class otherwise.

Orthureon

04-29-2010, 09:23 PM

<cite>Khatiru@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am curious tho... just how tough are these 95 X4 guards? I havent tried em out? This is what u have based your assessment on right? So lets have a few folks here go and solo said guards... Qeynos I am assuming right? So which one are you talking about?Also, before this gets very far but we talking balance for classes in PVP? Game mechanics are a bit different for PVP and PVE as I understand it.</blockquote>Lol no that is not what I base my whole argument off of, I can do that with crap gear, imagine what a [Removed for Content] out Sk could do.

Shade Slayer

04-29-2010, 10:01 PM

If you can't see how the Shadow Knight is overpowered, you're blind. No Warrior should outdamage a scout, heal better than a priest with skills like evac and feign death. Are you crazy?

ZerkerDwarf

04-30-2010, 06:33 AM

Instead of nerving one class they could [Removed for Content] other classes.What's the sense of a single class that is superior at once to ALL other tank classes in* single target dps* single target aggro* multiple target dps* multiple target aggro* at least same survivability* utility like fear immune (combat relevant), FD (cast one sb. else = combat relevant) and evac (not combat relevant)Or what's the sense of other classes then? Being class change potion customers?I repeat once more: balancing is not putting a heavyweight onto the side where once has been the leighter weight. It is putting the same weight on each side.

Landiin

04-30-2010, 01:18 PM

You SK should learn from the Guards of T5. You are all powerful now, you know it, we know it, you just don't want to admit it. When the nerf bat hits it will hurt and it will hurt bad. Do your selves a favor now and come up with ways that truly balances your class with the other fighters and maybe that bat will not hurt so bad. The ENTIRE EQ2 community knows the state of crusaders Sks in general. Suggest real idea's now or for ever hold you peace.

Bruener

04-30-2010, 02:51 PM

<cite>ZerkerDwarf wrote:</cite><blockquote>Instead of nerving one class they could [Removed for Content] other classes.What's the sense of a single class that is superior at once to ALL other tank classes in* single target dps Not the best. Brawlers parse better on ST and Warriors can parse just as good and also equal to Paladins.* single target aggro Not the best. Paladin has more agro on any type of encounter than any other tank. Brawler ST agro is far superior and Guards still keep reinforcement which makes their ST superior.* multiple target dps Equal to Paladins and Zerkers.* multiple target aggro Again Paladins have the best agro hands down, they have equal DPS + Amends which blows away anybody else.* at least same survivability Ha. This is where people really need to wake up. SKs have a few tools that can really help in a tanking situation but saying they have equal survivability is a joke. Guards are THE KING by a long shot in ST survivability with how much damage they can block. Zerkers take 50% less damage over half the time...people seem to forget that. And finally Paladins with their wards and heals are like a half healer, meanwhile their mitigation and avoidance levels are at the high end for plate tanks. Oh yeah and they have an 8 sec no damage ability on a short recast.* utility like fear immune (combat relevant), FD (cast one sb. else = combat relevant) and evac (not combat relevant) Seriously you are going to throw in utility? How many fear inducing mobs have you seen in SF? Or how about the fact every class in this game can have a FD. Or yeah evac for some reason is just so useful.... I mean I guess we can lay out all the garbage utility every other fighter class gets if you really want to stack it up, but honestly you need to get away from even talking about this junk.Or what's the sense of other classes then? Being class change potion customers?I repeat once more: balancing is not putting a heavyweight onto the side where once has been the leighter weight. It is putting the same weight on each side.</blockquote>What you see with SKs are a balanced, well-rounded class. Something that was the aim for the class all along but took this long to get into affect. They are not the best in any single situation but they are good in all of them. And they are way cooler than any other tank because who doesn't like the idea of an evil knight? Lore wise that has been one of the most popular classes anyways.

Rageincarnate

04-30-2010, 04:57 PM

my dirge and warden took out one of those guards. dirge tanked and warden meleed.. yea..../shrug nerf dirges and wardens!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Caitlynd

04-30-2010, 06:12 PM

<cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think most of you are overreactiing... I mean think about it, if they were to actually tone down the SK(Crusaders in general) they don't need to USE all of the things I suggested from the list. But some do deserve a much needed "toning down".There is no single thing that makes the SK overpowered it is the potent combination of abilities that does.</blockquote>There is a saying "The grass is always greener next door"....1: Do not in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM nerf a class due to PVP when the game is built around PVE. To even bring up PvP as a mean to *balance* a class is in all kinds of manners WRONG.2: I love when people who are NOT developers of a MAJOR MMO try and tell the rest of the people how a class should be fixed.3: The grass is always greener next door...

Phelon_Skellhound

04-30-2010, 07:44 PM

<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>You SK should learn from the Guards of T5. You are all powerful now, you know it, we know it, you just don't want to admit it. When the nerf bat hits it will hurt and it will hurt bad. Do your selves a favor now and come up with ways that truly balances your class with the other fighters and maybe that bat will not hurt so bad. The ENTIRE EQ2 community knows the state of crusaders Sks in general. Suggest real idea's now or for ever hold you peace.</blockquote>It should be the other way around... Learn from the SK's of T5, T6 & T7. Post constructive ideas on how to further balance your class in the appropriate forum/post of your choosing/creation. I'm sure by now you should have some idea of what you want after playing a bit in SF. Trying to be abrasive in this forum wont help your cause.

Bruener

04-30-2010, 11:41 PM

<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>You SK should learn from the Guards of T5. You are all powerful now, you know it, we know it, you just don't want to admit it. When the nerf bat hits it will hurt and it will hurt bad. Do your selves a favor now and come up with ways that truly balances your class with the other fighters and maybe that bat will not hurt so bad. The ENTIRE EQ2 community knows the state of crusaders Sks in general. Suggest real idea's now or for ever hold you peace.</blockquote>Ok so Guards got to have thier cake for what T5, T6, T7 and half of T8 over Crusaders. So Crusaders have been actually enjoying a slice for 1/2 a tier and now T9 so far. Guess we have a long ways to go before we have to worry. Maybe in EQ3.

DwarvesR

05-01-2010, 01:04 AM

<cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now lets go in-depth (these are numbers mainly that I see when I cast the spells, all ad3s except Unholy Blessing):<ul><li>Unholy Blessing: For me it heals for around 1700-1900 per trigger, 5 triggers, decent recast, fast casting time.</li><li>Tap Veins: Heals for around 3300-3800 PER target hit. Can be buffed up even further with an adorn.</li><li>Devour Vitae: Heals for 2600-3200, can have an adorn which will add smaller heals that trigger off of each mob in the linked encounter. Around 11s recast.</li><li>Grim Harbringer: Parses very well in the DPS catagory, heals for around 3-8% of an SKs average heal parse.</li><li>Caress Feedback Adorn: Heals for around 250 every incoming melee attack.</li></ul></blockquote>You say you have "crap gear" and AD3's and these are the numbers you get? I have all AD3's as well, and yet I get about 1/3 to maybe 1/2 of those.Most of my gear is SF legendary anymore and I've got a few "really good" pieces to boot, but I don't raid, so I'll never see those "you can adorn something to make this spell better" things either.Perhaps your "crap gear" is better than you think?

Landiin

05-01-2010, 03:53 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>You SK should learn from the Guards of T5. You are all powerful now, you know it, we know it, you just don't want to admit it. When the nerf bat hits it will hurt and it will hurt bad. Do your selves a favor now and come up with ways that truly balances your class with the other fighters and maybe that bat will not hurt so bad. The ENTIRE EQ2 community knows the state of crusaders Sks in general. Suggest real idea's now or for ever hold you peace.</blockquote>Ok so Guards got to have thier cake for what T5, T6, T7 and half of T8 over Crusaders. So Crusaders have been actually enjoying a slice for 1/2 a tier and now T9 so far. Guess we have a long ways to go before we have to worry. Maybe in EQ3.</blockquote>This is T9 not T5-8, is it so hard for you to understand that? Isn't that what you always say?

Uskeab

05-01-2010, 11:42 AM

<cite>Shade Slayer wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you can't see how the Shadow Knight is overpowered, you're blind. No Warrior should outdamage a scout, heal better than a priest with skills like evac and feign death. Are you crazy?</blockquote>Seriously, how bad do these scouts suck? Maybe a broken scout class cant out dps a sk or on an AOE fight with a AOE heavy tank.and Heals BETTER than a priest? lol ok im going to join the next group i see looking for a healer and see how that goes.a good healer can have an x2 on them and heal themselves, sk can prevent that for what 31 sec in total and maybe a good aoe lifetap then die.Single target fight i can out dps a SK on my dirge...

Orthureon

05-01-2010, 11:05 PM

<cite>Ashantie@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think most of you are overreactiing... I mean think about it, if they were to actually tone down the SK(Crusaders in general) they don't need to USE all of the things I suggested from the list. But some do deserve a much needed "toning down".There is no single thing that makes the SK overpowered it is the potent combination of abilities that does.</blockquote>There is a saying "The grass is always greener next door"....1: Do not in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM nerf a class due to PVP when the game is built around PVE. To even bring up PvP as a mean to *balance* a class is in all kinds of manners WRONG.2: I love when people who are NOT developers of a MAJOR MMO try and tell the rest of the people how a class should be fixed.3: The grass is always greener next door...</blockquote>Do you even realize your example of "the grass is always greener" is completely misused? I am not saying some other class is better that the SK, which would be saying the "grass is greener". I am stating the class that I play is completely overpowered and needs to be toned down. People can argue the fact all that they want, SKs will be balanced out.And to the poster that stated "you are not a developer of an MMO" is correct. However, just because I am not, it does not mean that I lack valid points or insight into what should/needs to be fixed. So what you are saying is that the developers are the only ones capable of coming up with the appropriate way of balancing things??? That must be why the game is perfect and never needs to be patched am I right?

Orthureon

05-01-2010, 11:08 PM

<cite>bluedego wrote:</cite><blockquote>my dirge and warden took out one of those guards. dirge tanked and warden meleed.. yea..../shrug nerf dirges and wardens!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</blockquote>Once you add a healer into the mix nearly anyone can DUO a mob... I clearly stated that I soloed it, so how is your comment even relevant?Did you solo it on your Dirge? I am sure you could solo it on your Warden, but I bet you the SK/Pally can do it faster.

Phelon_Skellhound

05-02-2010, 01:56 AM

By that notion.. because a paladin or a zerker class can do the same they too are overpowered hehe...You are entitled to your opinion, that is fine. It's like when warriors had their buckler line before they nerfed it. None of them said oh hey my class is overpowered please nerf me. In all my years EQ1/EQ2 have I ever seen anyone or anyclass say "I need a nerf" whether you are ernest in your class affinity or have seperate accounts to make such claims (sorry had to say it for arguments sake, but admittedly its just way out left field to be believable or understandable) I just cant figure it out. I guess it is possible tho as we have seen many pretenders in this forum and never has it been in ernest.Now I wish I was the kind of person who could spout numbers and detailed information on the drop of a hat, but I am not. As I have mentioned before you cant have balance without counter balance. Most of the things that happened was so we could be viable raid tanks. Cant fix something without breaking something else. If you reduce something you need to increase something else to make up for the loss.People will have opinions about instance grouping vs raiding or PvP vs PvE. They'll say please dont make changes cuz factor x will overpower factor y. Its just that fine a line for devs in balancing all the classes.On a different matter why the hell are X4 guards even able to be solo'd?

Orthureon

05-02-2010, 06:31 PM

<cite>Khatiru@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>By that notion.. because a paladin or a zerker class can do the same they too are overpowered hehe...You are entitled to your opinion, that is fine. It's like when warriors had their buckler line before they nerfed it. None of them said oh hey my class is overpowered please nerf me. In all my years EQ1/EQ2 have I ever seen anyone or anyclass say "I need a nerf" whether you are ernest in your class affinity or have seperate accounts to make such claims (sorry had to say it for arguments sake, but admittedly its just way out left field to be believable or understandable) I just cant figure it out. I guess it is possible tho as we have seen many pretenders in this forum and never has it been in ernest.Now I wish I was the kind of person who could spout numbers and detailed information on the drop of a hat, but I am not. As I have mentioned before you cant have balance without counter balance. Most of the things that happened was so we could be viable raid tanks. Cant fix something without breaking something else. If you reduce something you need to increase something else to make up for the loss.People will have opinions about instance grouping vs raiding or PvP vs PvE. They'll say please dont make changes cuz factor x will overpower factor y. Its just that fine a line for devs in balancing all the classes.On a different matter why the hell are X4 guards even able to be solo'd?</blockquote>I can definitely verify that I am not a pretender, you could simply send a tell to my toon on Nagafen on the Q side, or ask my guild. But that would be too much work, accusations are far more entertaining and easy! I am sorry that I want balance even if it means that the class I play is the one in question.

Caitlynd

05-02-2010, 10:51 PM

JoarAddam

05-03-2010, 11:58 AM

instead of whining for nerfs, if you've got a problem with YOUR class, you should ask for buffs for that class. You like my class and what it can do? EITHER PLAY ONE, OR GET YOURS FIXED.

Darkonx

05-03-2010, 04:08 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Akuu@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>OP.. could u please explain why u feel crusaders are imbalanced?I mean.. u keep telling us how well u solo thing.. That doesnt warrant a nerf of an archetype..The secret to successfully solo is to work out working strategies, learn from others, get the right gear(not nescessarily raid gear), and try and try and try again untill u make progress and find strats that work. This can be done with any class if played solo right.</blockquote>Yes I can, it is very simple. They do too much DPS for a tank, they heal too much for a tank and to top it off they have decent utility to avoid/mitigate incoming damage; Shadowknight's Furor, Divine Aura, Myth clicky (which will absorb all physical attacks for 8s that do more than 60% of your HP), Blood Siphon, Bloodletter (has saved me countless times).Now lets go in-depth (these are numbers mainly that I see when I cast the spells, all ad3s except Unholy Blessing):<ul><li>Reaver: Heals the Sk for the listed amounts PER mob hit; Regular healing amount 2% in PVE, 1.6% in PVP, buffed via AA 4% in PVE and 2.6% in PVP. Reaver does a whopping 80-150 hps in a raid situation when tanking. That is with the enhancements to make it 4%. Extremely weak.</li><li>Unholy Blessing: For me it heals for around 1700-1900 per trigger, 5 triggers, decent recast, fast casting time. Not worth the time to cast it. 1700 heals is a joke for the amount of time this thing takes to cast and for how much mobs are hitting. SKs are much better off leaving the healing to healers since they can heal everything easily without a lot of thought.</li><li>Tap Veins: Heals for around 3300-3800 PER target hit. Can be buffed up even further with an adorn. The adornment is not worth getting because the damage and heal from it are extremely low. Also like all the other lifetaps SKs get they are basically useless with a decent healer around. Sure TV CAN do that much in healing but most of the time your lucky to get a few hundred heals out of simply because your health is already green.</li><li>Devour Vitae: Heals for 2600-3200, can have an adorn which will add smaller heals that trigger off of each mob in the linked encounter. Around 11s recast. See above lifetap info. I think I am lucky to even get double digit hps from devour vitae in raids.</li><li>Grim Harbringer: Parses very well in the DPS catagory, heals for around 3-8% of an SKs average heal parse. You just seem to have this huge misconception about lifetaps. Grim harbringer is a nice DPS proc...the heal side of it again does practically nothing because healers are keeping your health green.</li><li>Caress Feedback Adorn: Heals for around 250 every incoming melee attack. Not sure I know any SK that actually uses this adorn because it is so weak. Maybe if all they did was BG, but even than there is much better choices.</li><li>Add in all the various warding, healing proc gear. Gear that is available to all other fighters. In fact I get more heals from Stonewill than all my lifetaps combined..../gasp.</li><li>Now add all this together!</li></ul></blockquote>What SKs do is absolutely no different than what other tanks do. What you forget to mention with Furor is extremely long recast, unlike the Paladin ability which has 1/3 of the recast. Or like Adrenaline that has a 1/4 of the recast time. Or like all the block abilities Guard have that they can basically cycle through regularly. Sorry some SK schools you...but really its not the class its you.</blockquote>What Bruenor said. Our lifetaps really are flavor, and not much more with a decent healer. You just sound like you want the class to be nerfed for no real reason. You list everything good about the class, and then call for a nerf. Crusaders, by class design, are some of the best soloers in game. Versatility>Specialization when it comes to soloability. I've seen berserkers solo 60 ^/^^/^^^ mobs at a time. It's mostly just gear.

Orthureon

05-03-2010, 05:08 PM

Orthureon

05-03-2010, 05:17 PM

<cite>Ashantie@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You did not even answer his question you skirted around it like a politician trying to get a vote....I have played many mmo's and I have seen people play specific classes and SOLO stuff that NO normal person can solo. Yet once the vid comes out or people learn HOW to do it they then can start to solo the same things.As such who are YOU to decide what is to much DPS for a tank class?Your problem is a simple one your JEALOUS that these 2 classes can solo things other classes have a hard time soloing or outright can't. Guess the saying life is not fair is the correct acronym to use here.Your mad we get it now get over it.</blockquote>Why would I be mad about the class I play being overpowered? I am simply aware that Crusaders are overpowered and need to be fixed. I have 2 Crusaders, one named Aviron a 90 Paladin on another account and my main Daemien a 90 Shadowknight.As for the examples, I gave them, with numbers and all. Do you want me to draw some pictures for you?

Caitlynd

05-03-2010, 06:19 PM

<cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ashantie@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You did not even answer his question you skirted around it like a politician trying to get a vote....I have played many mmo's and I have seen people play specific classes and SOLO stuff that NO normal person can solo. Yet once the vid comes out or people learn HOW to do it they then can start to solo the same things.As such who are YOU to decide what is to much DPS for a tank class?Your problem is a simple one your JEALOUS that these 2 classes can solo things other classes have a hard time soloing or outright can't. Guess the saying life is not fair is the correct acronym to use here.Your mad we get it now get over it.</blockquote>Why would I be mad about the class I play being overpowered? I am simply aware that Crusaders are overpowered and need to be fixed. I have 2 Crusaders, one named Aviron a 90 Paladin on another account and my main Daemien a 90 Shadowknight.As for the examples, I gave them, with numbers and all. Do you want me to draw some pictures for you?</blockquote>Your examples are ones set up to show only one side of the issue at hand, and its your *opinion* and not any real actual facts that you say Crusaders are OP.Perhaps the real problem is the other *tank* classes need to be buffed a little. Each tank type should have their specific role in regular groups and raids (don't care about PvP as pvp is but a small insignificant afterthought in this game).Should all tank classes be able to kill the same mobs in the same time frame? No they should not and anyone who says otherwise needs to go play Hello Kitty Online. I like having diverse classes that have specific roles.Some classes are harder to play then others and some are easy to play (which is not a reason to ask for nerfs or buffs)As such your prolly just some player who hates crusaders but knew that unless you came here with proof of at least 1 you would get shot down etc ect so you leveled one or both to hopefully get your point across yet as you can see you failed because everyone else knows something you don't..Nerfing does NOT fix a problem it only makes it worse.

Phelon_Skellhound

05-03-2010, 07:00 PM

<cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote>So after the nerf to Spell DPS output, or rather the fix to resists, I am nearly unstoppable 1v1 in PVP and I could easily kill the epic x4 level 95 guards in Qeynos if I had a bit more power regen. Point being I see this as imbalanced and also not very entertaining. I am not trying to be selfish to "bring more challenge to the class", but rather to tone down two classes which are obviously overpowered.My suggestions:Crusaders should have these abilities adjusted:<li style="padding-left: 30px;">Spells casting times should be slightly increased by 0.25s per spell. Spells went from 1s or longer cast times to 0.5 nearly across the board. </li><li style="padding-left: 30px;">Lower the base crit multiplier to 1.25/1.25 Spell/CAs. They are a hybrid after all.</li><li style="padding-left: 30px;">The Shadow AA ability that affects the damage on one-handed weapons should be changed to 25% accuracy.</li><li style="padding-left: 30px;">10% reduction to spell damage across the board for both Crusaders.</li>Shadowknight should have these abilities adjusted:<ul><li>Shadowknights Furor - Changed to a 15s parry, no riposte, no 20% increase to spell damage, no taunts and no immunity to interrupts. Just an ability to avoid damage. </li><li>Intelligence Line - One point in the Healing amount/resist passive ability automatically caps Reaver at 4% healing per spell in PVE and 2.6% healing in PVP. This needs to be fixed. </li><li>Lower the healing amount on these abilities in PVP and PVE: Tap Veins, Devour Vitae and Unholy Blessing. </li></ul>As for Paladins I am not sure, but their healing capabilities are far too high I know that much. I would have more input but I haven't played my Paladin much after dinging 90.</blockquote><cite>Khatiru@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now I wish I was the kind of person who could spout numbers and detailed information on the drop of a hat, but I am not. As I have mentioned before you cant have balance without counter balance. Most of the things that happened was so we could be viable raid tanks. Cant fix something without breaking something else. If you reduce something you need to increase something else to make up for the loss.People will have opinions about instance grouping vs raiding or PvP vs PvE. They'll say please dont make changes cuz factor x will overpower factor y. Its just that fine a line for devs in balancing all the classes.On a different matter why the hell are X4 guards even able to be solo'd?</blockquote>I don't do PVP... So I can only see that your suggestions are for PVP only servers? If that is what you are getting at then you have actually mislead the general public without inlcuding PVP only in the title of the post. I read it but may have raised the banner too soon here.You did not mention instancing or raiding so are we balanced then when dungeon crawling/raiding as that is the opinion I am reading? ... your suggestions are for PC to PC combat only? So far I have seen only nerfs... These reductions would actually hurt crusaders well in this case SK's as you went into that tree PVE and PVP servers on non PC to PC combat.... Where is the rebalance to validate for instance and raiding usage?

Orthureon

05-03-2010, 09:03 PM

<cite>Danifea@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>As such your prolly just some player who hates crusaders but knew that unless you came here with proof of at least 1 you would get shot down etc ect so you leveled one or both to hopefully get your point across yet as you can see you failed because everyone else knows something you don't..- Just see when I made my Crusader and how many days I have played, if that was motive that was one hell of a motive eh?Nerfing does NOT fix a problem it only makes it worse.- Incorrect, if you buff a class to the point where they can easily solo group content something is wrong and I think that warrants a nerf.</blockquote>On what golden beaches are you guys burying your heads in the sand? My suggestions were just that, suggestions. They would need to be tested and tweaked. As it stands now Crusaders are due for a nerf and it WILL come. I predict 50% of the people that play the class now will move on to another class when the day comes. Ah well I should have known better than to try and suggest ways to balance the SK in these forums. I will simply send my parses from my SK soloing epics and soloing heroic zones to the devs and let them decide what needs to be balanced. I have no hidden agenda here, I just want balance, thank you all for your posts it was entertaining, I will redirect all comments to the developers.Also just to prove a point (check my eq2 players profile):<ul><li>Daemien</li><li>Date Created: Oct 29, 2008</li><li>Time Played: 78 Days 19 Hours. (or 1,891 hours... this game owns your soul!)</li></ul>

Uskeab

05-04-2010, 01:25 AM

L O Llike i said MANY people can solo LAME city guards and t8 zones.go back a few years from your start date and try to play a sk and see how bad it was.

Macross_JR

05-04-2010, 07:27 AM

You guys just don't get it do you. Just because you were broke for so long doesn't mean you should be OP. There is a need for balance. But I guess you guys just think because you guys were [Removed for Content] for so long it's ok to be OP. It's not. What is going to happen is you are going to get use to being OP, they are going to fix you guys, and you guys are going to start QQ'ing because no one wants you again.

noobsauce01

05-04-2010, 11:32 AM

<cite>Githil@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>You guys just don't get it do you. Just because you were broke for so long doesn't mean you should be OP. There is a need for balance. But I guess you guys just think because you guys were [Removed for Content] for so long it's ok to be OP. It's not. What is going to happen is you are going to get use to being OP, they are going to fix you guys, and you guys are going to start QQ'ing because no one wants you again.</blockquote>Um, "they are going to fix you guys"....and then.... "no one wants you again".Nice idea of "fix" you have there. Ouch.

Orthureon

05-04-2010, 02:14 PM

<cite>noobsauce01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Githil@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>You guys just don't get it do you. Just because you were broke for so long doesn't mean you should be OP. There is a need for balance. But I guess you guys just think because you guys were [Removed for Content] for so long it's ok to be OP. It's not. What is going to happen is you are going to get use to being OP, they are going to fix you guys, and you guys are going to start QQ'ing because no one wants you again.</blockquote>Um, "they are going to fix you guys"....and then.... "no one wants you again".Nice idea of "fix" you have there. Ouch.</blockquote>I think he was getting more at the fact that not everyone will be able to dps and tank with ease and that is how it currently is. No matter who the player behind the screen is you can do well on a Crusader.

Orthureon

05-04-2010, 02:18 PM

<cite>Uskeab@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>L O Llike i said MANY people can solo LAME city guards and t8 zones.go back a few years from your start date and try to play a sk and see how bad it was.</blockquote>I was talking about the easier T9 zones. I would also love for you to post videos of all these different CLASSES (not people) that can solo x4 guards.

CHIMPNOODLE.

05-04-2010, 02:45 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ZerkerDwarf wrote:</cite><blockquote>Instead of nerving one class they could [Removed for Content] other classes.What's the sense of a single class that is superior at once to ALL other tank classes in* single target dps Not the best. Brawlers parse better on ST and Warriors can parse just as good and also equal to Paladins.* single target aggro Not the best. Paladin has more agro on any type of encounter than any other tank. Brawler ST agro is far superior and Guards still keep reinforcement which makes their ST superior.* multiple target dps Equal to Paladins and Zerkers.* multiple target aggro Again Paladins have the best agro hands down, they have equal DPS + Amends which blows away anybody else.* at least same survivability Ha. This is where people really need to wake up. SKs have a few tools that can really help in a tanking situation but saying they have equal survivability is a joke. Guards are THE KING by a long shot in ST survivability with how much damage they can block. Zerkers take 50% less damage over half the time...people seem to forget that. And finally Paladins with their wards and heals are like a half healer, meanwhile their mitigation and avoidance levels are at the high end for plate tanks. Oh yeah and they have an 8 sec no damage ability on a short recast.* utility like fear immune (combat relevant), FD (cast one sb. else = combat relevant) and evac (not combat relevant) Seriously you are going to throw in utility? How many fear inducing mobs have you seen in SF? Or how about the fact every class in this game can have a FD. Or yeah evac for some reason is just so useful.... I mean I guess we can lay out all the garbage utility every other fighter class gets if you really want to stack it up, but honestly you need to get away from even talking about this junk.Or what's the sense of other classes then? Being class change potion customers?I repeat once more: balancing is not putting a heavyweight onto the side where once has been the leighter weight. It is putting the same weight on each side.</blockquote>What you see with SKs are a balanced, well-rounded class. Something that was the aim for the class all along but took this long to get into affect. They are not the best in any single situation but they are good in all of them. And they are way cooler than any other tank because who doesn't like the idea of an evil knight? Lore wise that has been one of the most popular classes anyways.</blockquote>That pretty much sums it up for me too. I don't see the need or use for any of the original suggestions (in PVE anyway). If some other classes feel they are struggling, they may need some boosts or tweaks. If mobs are overconned (aka soloable Epics), then the mobs need to be boosted. That's about it imo.

JoarAddam

05-04-2010, 02:55 PM

<cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Date Created: Oct 29, 2008</blockquote>there's your problem. Jumped on the SK bandwagon after we spent 4 years fixing the broken axle, so you never had it tough.

Uskeab

05-04-2010, 08:49 PM

<cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uskeab@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>L O Llike i said MANY people can solo LAME city guards and t8 zones.go back a few years from your start date and try to play a sk and see how bad it was.</blockquote>I was talking about the easier T9 zones. I would also love for you to post videos of all these different CLASSES (not people) that can solo x4 guards.</blockquote>i would also love to see YOUR video of YOU soloing a t9 zone.

Orthureon

05-05-2010, 01:02 PM

<cite>JoarAddam wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Date Created: Oct 29, 2008</blockquote>there's your problem. Jumped on the SK bandwagon after we spent 4 years fixing the broken axle, so you never had it tough.</blockquote>Not really because my original SK (also named Daemien) was on Vox. He was a blast then aswell, though I did not raid on him he was my main and I could solo a lot of things. I ended up selling him once I switched to Nagafen and yes I agree SKs needed a boost, but they got far too much of one.I figured this comment would come up from someone hehe, good try though.

Wasuna

05-06-2010, 03:34 PM

<cite>JoarAddam wrote:</cite><blockquote>instead of whining for nerfs, if you've got a problem with YOUR class, you should ask for buffs for that class. You like my class and what it can do? EITHER PLAY ONE, OR GET YOURS FIXED.</blockquote>We do exactly that and Breuner comes and derails the whole thing. Please suggest something that isn't exactly what SK's do. I don't know the Original Poster but he 100% claimes to be a SK and if you don't believe him you can look him up.I don't know the SK abilities. I just know I run a parse and I check it after I run instances and the SK's are doing serious DPS and a real nice amount of healing. Heck, when on my Troubador the other night the SK was in an on-going DPS contect with the Warlock and I had UT on the Warlock! They were in the same raid guild so I assume they had basically equal tear gear. Just so you know, the SK was wearing plate and the Warlock was wearing cloth. Also, just so you know, the SK had the highest DPS for about 30% of the fights in that instance.As for Breauners comments, a balanced well-rounded class means you can do whatever. It's like the Old EQ1 Druid. Raid heal? Sure. Solo? Like a champ. Tank? Yep, I did that for anthing but raids. Teleport? Where do you want to go? Utility? Wow.. just tell me what you need and I'll cast it on you. I really enjoyed my druid! I suspect the current SK's really enjoy their class. it doesn't mean your should have everything you do.

Bruener

05-06-2010, 03:59 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JoarAddam wrote:</cite><blockquote>instead of whining for nerfs, if you've got a problem with YOUR class, you should ask for buffs for that class. You like my class and what it can do? EITHER PLAY ONE, OR GET YOURS FIXED.</blockquote>We do exactly that and Breuner comes and derails the whole thing. Please suggest something that isn't exactly what SK's do. I don't know the Original Poster but he 100% claimes to be a SK and if you don't believe him you can look him up.I don't know the SK abilities. I just know I run a parse and I check it after I run instances and the SK's are doing serious DPS and a real nice amount of healing. Heck, when on my Troubador the other night the SK was in an on-going DPS contect with the Warlock and I had UT on the Warlock! They were in the same raid guild so I assume they had basically equal tear gear. Just so you know, the SK was wearing plate and the Warlock was wearing cloth. Also, just so you know, the SK had the highest DPS for about 30% of the fights in that instance.As for Breauners comments, a balanced well-rounded class means you can do whatever. It's like the Old EQ1 Druid. Raid heal? Sure. Solo? Like a champ. Tank? Yep, I did that for anthing but raids. Teleport? Where do you want to go? Utility? Wow.. just tell me what you need and I'll cast it on you. I really enjoyed my druid! I suspect the current SK's really enjoy their class. it doesn't mean your should have everything you do.</blockquote>Funny that you mention EQ1 druids...because they too were a fun great class to play because of their extreme versatility...but in no way were OP'd. People just need to realize that some class are the best as some things and other class are just really good at a lot of things. Being mediocre good at a lot of things never works and was the problem with SKs the first 4 years or so. So you have to be pretty good at a lot of things (Hybrid classes basically...Crusaders/bards/druids) or be specialized into best in a certain category (Guard, Templar, Sorcerors, Predators) in order to be a desired class. Please list me one single category that SKs are the BEST at. One thing. Survivability we know for a fact the other 3 plate tanks can take hits better than SKs in both ST and AE. Agro...well we know the king of Agro is Paladins, Guards have better ST agro control, Brawlers have better ST agro and with proper positional using just as good at AE, and even Zerkers have more AE positionals. DPS....well we know for a fact that every fighter when going full offensive has close to the same DPS potential. So please tell me what category is it that SKs are the BEST in....Oh wait, it is the category of being real good in all the categories not necessarily the best. Guilty as charged, seeing how that is how the class is meant to be. In fact SOE has recognized this as a preferred play style and is moving more classes to be like that. You should see the DPS our priests and bards can put out on raids....20k+ on named mobs easy, and its not like they are getting all the buffs like some classes.And the only time I address crap in the Guards section is when they are completely down-playing the ability of their class and asking for ridiculous buffs to basically make them the BEST in every situation instead of being happy with their intended role of BEST MT. You know like trying to give Guards a 5 positional blue AE increaser with a big amount of threat on a very short recast. So the over-the-top junk that people come up with because they rolled a class and expect it to be something it is not. Its like going out and rolling a bard expecting to do DPS like an Assassin.

JoarAddam

05-06-2010, 06:56 PM

Wasuna

05-07-2010, 11:43 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Funny that you mention EQ1 druids...because they too were a fun great class to play because of their extreme versatility...but in no way were OP'd. People just need to realize that some class are the best as some things and other class are just really good at a lot of things. Being mediocre good at a lot of things never works and was the problem with SKs the first 4 years or so. So you have to be pretty good at a lot of things (Hybrid classes basically...Crusaders/bards/druids) or be specialized into best in a certain category (Guard, Templar, Sorcerors, Predators) in order to be a desired class. Please list me one single category that SKs are the BEST at. One thing. Survivability we know for a fact the other 3 plate tanks can take hits better than SKs in both ST and AE. Agro...well we know the king of Agro is Paladins, Guards have better ST agro control, Brawlers have better ST agro and with proper positional using just as good at AE, and even Zerkers have more AE positionals. DPS....well we know for a fact that every fighter when going full offensive has close to the same DPS potential. So please tell me what category is it that SKs are the BEST in....Oh wait, it is the category of being real good in all the categories not necessarily the best. Guilty as charged, seeing how that is how the class is meant to be. In fact SOE has recognized this as a preferred play style and is moving more classes to be like that. You should see the DPS our priests and bards can put out on raids....20k+ on named mobs easy, and its not like they are getting all the buffs like some classes.And the only time I address crap in the Guards section is when they are completely down-playing the ability of their class and asking for ridiculous buffs to basically make them the BEST in every situation instead of being happy with their intended role of BEST MT. You know like trying to give Guards a 5 positional blue AE increaser with a big amount of threat on a very short recast. So the over-the-top junk that people come up with because they rolled a class and expect it to be something it is not. Its like going out and rolling a bard expecting to do DPS like an Assassin.</blockquote>First, I don't think you have seen me screaming for crazy stuff. I just want true balance. I have said Guardians are better off in the current expansion than in TSO but, as I have said many times, that in no way means the current unbalanced system is acceptable. All of those people screaming that they were red headed stepchildren in previous expansions can take a long walk. I asked for balance when it meant my class needed to be nerfed so point your fingers elsewhere.The EQ1 druid was over powered if given the proper gear. The gear I had on my druid was the best on the server since I raided 6 days a week. Calling that well balanced is completenly wrong. I could do stuff nobody else could do and I could make up the exp debt in minutes to make up for my exploring and testing things. If I had normal gear then I would have had limitations like everybody else and then I would have been balanced.The SK class in EQ2 is basically the oppsite. If everybody has high end gear then everybody is basically balanced (I don't raid so I accept the comments posted on that). If the classes are in even slightly lesser gear, the SK excells in every way. That is not balanced at all. That needs to be fixed. You can't honestly argue that.

Wasuna

05-07-2010, 11:48 AM

<cite>JoarAddam wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite>You assume they had equal gear just because they were in the same guild as though you'd never heard of alts.. How many AA's did they each have? It's like you're just stabbing in the dark and then saying SK must be OP because you have no idea what they're doing, but less than 1/3 of the time, they had the highest parse in the group... not saying how much higher, or what the situation was, but they gotta be OP cos you say so.Next time one of you cries nerf, back it up with some facts. Screenshots, or it didn't happen.</blockquote>Blah blah blah... both were doing 15-30K DPS but it varied per fight. I don't think I needed to look at their gear and you'll notice nobody here but you screamed about the comment. They all know it's not far fetched in the slightest.People have posted parses, examed those parses, posted rebuttles. In the end, it's a known fact. Argue all you want but it won't change.

JoarAddam

05-07-2010, 02:04 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JoarAddam wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite>You assume they had equal gear just because they were in the same guild as though you'd never heard of alts.. How many AA's did they each have? It's like you're just stabbing in the dark and then saying SK must be OP because you have no idea what they're doing, but less than 1/3 of the time, they had the highest parse in the group... not saying how much higher, or what the situation was, but they gotta be OP cos you say so.Next time one of you cries nerf, back it up with some facts. Screenshots, or it didn't happen.</blockquote>Blah blah blah... both were doing 15-30K DPS but it varied per fight. I don't think I needed to look at their gear and you'll notice nobody here but you screamed about the comment. They all know it's not far fetched in the slightest.People have posted parses, examed those parses, posted rebuttles. In the end, it's a known fact. Argue all you want but it won't change.</blockquote>I just ground through 5 pages of this thread and there isn't one parse.

Fluffiee

05-08-2010, 02:48 PM

I think the main problem lies with the proc gear that some ShadowKnights use - Some items proc an AOE dd spell that hit very hard and have chances to proc with every melee or spell hit. Now if you have 3-6 pieces of this stuff well you start having some insane parses. Add three blasting adorns to the mix and you start seeing the big picture.I do not think your average SK will be topping parses against certain scouts and zerkers, paladins and even casters without this type gear. Just asking for a nerf on ShadowKnights (your main class) seems a bit premature. Balance comes in many forms and nerfing is just asking for Sony to screw things up even worse.Consider the proc gear used - research the shadowsknight parsing super high and you will see they are using some nice proc jewelry/gear.I personally feel sony needs to adjust gear/item proc effects/rates.

Darkonx

05-08-2010, 02:53 PM

<cite>Fluffiee wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the main problem lies with the proc gear that some ShadowKnights use - Some items proc an AOE dd spell that hit very hard and have chances to proc with every melee or spell hit. Now if you have 3-6 pieces of this stuff well you start having some insane parses. Add three blasting adorns to the mix and you start seeing the big picture.I do not think your average SK will be topping parses against certain scouts and zerkers, paladins and even casters without this type gear. Just asking for a nerf on ShadowKnights (your main class) seems a bit premature. Balance comes in many forms and nerfing is just asking for Sony to screw things up even worse.Consider the proc gear used - research the shadowsknight parsing super high and you will see they are using some nice proc jewelry/gear.I personally feel sony needs to adjust gear/item proc effects/rates.</blockquote>Blasting adorns aren't that good now, that they are un-modifiable. Proc gear allows everyone to get the same returns from the gear, so more than anything, it just levels the playing field between all classes.

BChizzle

05-08-2010, 08:15 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Proc gear allows everyone to get the same returns from the gear, so more than anything, it just levels the playing field between all classes.</blockquote>Incorrect since classes with more AE capability have the potential to create more proc opportunities thus creating an imbalance not an even playing field.

Wasuna

05-11-2010, 02:16 PM

<cite>JoarAddam wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite>I just ground through 5 pages of this thread and there isn't one parse. </blockquote>Try 5,000 pages. This thread isn't the sum total of this agrument and I'm not going to work to convence you of something you already know. Keep arguing all you want. It's not going to change the fact that SK's are overpowered.Please note that this is being said by somebody that hasn't asked for crazy upgrades to Guardians or what not. I just ask for some form of balance which means that my Troubador will someday actually pick up group with some tank other than a Shadowknight.

Bruener

05-11-2010, 04:56 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JoarAddam wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite>I just ground through 5 pages of this thread and there isn't one parse. </blockquote>Try 5,000 pages. This thread isn't the sum total of this agrument and I'm not going to work to convence you of something you already know. Keep arguing all you want. It's not going to change the fact that SK's are overpowered.Please note that this is being said by somebody that hasn't asked for crazy upgrades to Guardians or what not. I just ask for some form of balance which means that my Troubador will someday actually pick up group with some tank other than a Shadowknight.</blockquote>I see Bruisers, Monks, Paladins, Zerkers and Guards pick-up group all the time.But keep up the incorrect info as usual. Just like your other thread about "popular" classes. As long as a Shadowknight type class has been in RPGs they have been one of the more popular classes to play.....why such the suprise?

Wasuna

05-11-2010, 06:36 PM

Sorry you don't like it Breuner. The fact is that I want my choosen class to be a well rounded, fun class to play. Surely you can't argue with that. The numbers I'll be updating in the other thread you mention are a simple qualitative analysis of how well rounded and fun the Guardian class is compared to the SK class.You (Breuner) set the defination for a balanced class; well rounded and fun. I'm using the only reasonable data available to compare the Guardian and SK classes. How can that hurt anything? Everybody wants to pull out parses, gear, type of instances.. etc. I'm going to look at the heart of the matter. The most well rounded, fun class to play will have more people playing it. If more people play SK's than Guardians then I will ask that the Guardian, my choosen class, be made more well rounded and fun to play.Simple eh?

Bruener

05-11-2010, 07:11 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry you don't like it Breuner. The fact is that I want my choosen class to be a well rounded, fun class to play. Surely you can't argue with that. The numbers I'll be updating in the other thread you mention are a simple qualitative analysis of how well rounded and fun the Guardian class is compared to the SK class.You (Breuner) set the defination for a balanced class; well rounded and fun. I'm using the only reasonable data available to compare the Guardian and SK classes. How can that hurt anything? Everybody wants to pull out parses, gear, type of instances.. etc. I'm going to look at the heart of the matter. The most well rounded, fun class to play will have more people playing it. If more people play SK's than Guardians then I will ask that the Guardian, my choosen class, be made more well rounded and fun to play.Simple eh?</blockquote>Well its obvious that the well rounded type of class is what most people prefer to play. And since there is only 1 MT they have moved the other fighter classes to fit into that category...tanks that can tank very well, bring utility, and bring good DPS. In order to compete for each other in the couple of other fighter spots they need to be able to contribute to those areas well. SOE has moved Zerkers, Paladins, and Brawlers towards that category for that very reason. However, the 1 class that still dominates the MT spot is Guards. Now if you add the same utility and DPS capabilities to Guards than with their superior survivability (and yes you are extremely daft if you can't see their advantage in this category) not only will they most definitely secure the spot of MT but they will also be a leading contender for OT.That being said I am one of the few non-Guard people that have put forth ideas to make their Heroic game-play much more enjoyable. Long before SF I talked about a group Moderate and increase Guards threat (with threat crit'ing Guard threat has went up a lot). I also brought up the idea of changing Recapture to an AE ability that lower the hate positions of the Guards group by a few for all engaged mobs.There are plenty of things that can be done to increase a Guards fun-factor in heroic without making them the be all end all in raids.

Phelon_Skellhound

05-11-2010, 08:55 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry you don't like it Breuner. The fact is that I want my choosen class to be a well rounded, fun class to play. Surely you can't argue with that. The numbers I'll be updating in the other thread you mention are a simple qualitative analysis of how well rounded and fun the Guardian class is compared to the SK class.You (Breuner) set the defination for a balanced class; well rounded and fun. I'm using the only reasonable data available to compare the Guardian and SK classes. How can that hurt anything? Everybody wants to pull out parses, gear, type of instances.. etc. I'm going to look at the heart of the matter. The most well rounded, fun class to play will have more people playing it. If more people play SK's than Guardians then I will ask that the Guardian, my choosen class, be made more well rounded and fun to play.Simple eh?</blockquote>Really no need to compare to just one plate class without also including the other plate tanks to have your analysis... how does Fox News put it?? make it "Fair and unbaised" Recomend a fresh new posting to start with as all tanks i am sure will want to chime in of course... It has always been since I can remember (Been playing an SK and I have zero alts since the game first opened its servers) our stance that we shall never compare ourselves to other tanks... We have always put up improvements and tweaks threads... and when a few step out to compare have reminded them that we arent here to be jealous of other tanks but too think of ways to improve upon ourselves.... We dont want to be like other tanks.. we want to do what they do in our own way...I am all for improving Guards a bit in the ae catagory... improving the guard's fun factor.. improving utility without stepping on other classes toes.. whatever you suggest, its gotta be something the guard can specialize and make it its own and not some version of somebody else's.. my 2cpQuote's from SOE's website on their vission of the classes.."Guardians are the anchor of any group of adventurers, providing leadership and protection for their allies. Combining durable armor with an impressive array of defensive skills, Guardians can remain standing after absorbing substantial amounts of physical damage from their enemies. ""The Berserker is the personification of unbridled aggression and fury. They are fearsome opponents, especially when facing many foes at once. Berserkers stand at the forefront of battle, unleashing their devastating rage upon the enemy while keeping unwanted attention away from their allies. ""Shadowknights are malevolent crusaders who wreak fear, hate and despair upon all who would oppose them. In addition to their formidable martial art skills, Shadowknights conjure dark magic with which they can enhance their abilities and drain away the life force of their enemies.""The epitome of honor and valor, Paladins excel in martial combat while employing divine magic to enhance their abilities and strike down their enemies. By invoking both protective and healing magic, the Paladin can often survive battles that would crumble those of lesser resolve."

Blaqjack

05-11-2010, 11:23 PM

I would just like to pose the question...Is there a reason that there are suddenly so many shadowknights throughout Norrath since T8 and now T9?Is it because SK's are just so mysterious and everyone is drawn to the mystical nature of them? Or is it something else?The pendulum shall swing, it's the nature of the game.

Macross_JR

05-12-2010, 01:04 AM

<cite>Khatiru@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry you don't like it Breuner. The fact is that I want my choosen class to be a well rounded, fun class to play. Surely you can't argue with that. The numbers I'll be updating in the other thread you mention are a simple qualitative analysis of how well rounded and fun the Guardian class is compared to the SK class.You (Breuner) set the defination for a balanced class; well rounded and fun. I'm using the only reasonable data available to compare the Guardian and SK classes. How can that hurt anything? Everybody wants to pull out parses, gear, type of instances.. etc. I'm going to look at the heart of the matter. The most well rounded, fun class to play will have more people playing it. If more people play SK's than Guardians then I will ask that the Guardian, my choosen class, be made more well rounded and fun to play.Simple eh?</blockquote>Really no need to compare to just one plate class without also including the other plate tanks to have your analysis... how does Fox News put it?? make it "Fair and unbaised" Recomend a fresh new posting to start with as all tanks i am sure will want to chime in of course... It has always been since I can remember (Been playing an SK and I have zero alts since the game first opened its servers) our stance that we shall never compare ourselves to other tanks... We have always put up improvements and tweaks threads... and when a few step out to compare have reminded them that we arent here to be jealous of other tanks but too think of ways to improve upon ourselves.... We dont want to be like other tanks.. we want to do what they do in our own way...I am all for improving Guards a bit in the ae catagory... improving the guard's fun factor.. improving utility without stepping on other classes toes.. whatever you suggest, its gotta be something the guard can specialize and make it its own and not some version of somebody else's.. my 2cpQuote's from SOE's website on their vission of the classes.."Guardians are the anchor of any group of adventurers, providing leadership and protection for their allies. Combining durable armor with an impressive array of defensive skills, Guardians can remain standing after absorbing substantial amounts of physical damage from their enemies. ""The Berserker is the personification of unbridled aggression and fury. They are fearsome opponents, especially when facing many foes at once. Berserkers stand at the forefront of battle, unleashing their devastating rage upon the enemy while keeping unwanted attention away from their allies. ""Shadowknights are malevolent crusaders who wreak fear, hate and despair upon all who would oppose them. In addition to their formidable martial art skills, Shadowknights conjure dark magic with which they can enhance their abilities and drain away the life force of their enemies.""The epitome of honor and valor, Paladins excel in martial combat while employing divine magic to enhance their abilities and strike down their enemies. By invoking both protective and healing magic, the Paladin can often survive battles that would crumble those of lesser resolve."</blockquote>Are you effing serious? You pulled information that was for the initial release of this game to back up your statements? You say you don't want to step on Guardians toes? Yet it seems SK's want all the fun with out the downside of what Guardians have to do to "attempt" to have the same amount of fun. Get real.

Phelon_Skellhound

05-12-2010, 03:02 AM

<cite>Githil@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Khatiru@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry you don't like it Breuner. The fact is that I want my choosen class to be a well rounded, fun class to play. Surely you can't argue with that. The numbers I'll be updating in the other thread you mention are a simple qualitative analysis of how well rounded and fun the Guardian class is compared to the SK class.You (Breuner) set the defination for a balanced class; well rounded and fun. I'm using the only reasonable data available to compare the Guardian and SK classes. How can that hurt anything? Everybody wants to pull out parses, gear, type of instances.. etc. I'm going to look at the heart of the matter. The most well rounded, fun class to play will have more people playing it. If more people play SK's than Guardians then I will ask that the Guardian, my choosen class, be made more well rounded and fun to play.Simple eh?</blockquote>Really no need to compare to just one plate class without also including the other plate tanks to have your analysis... how does Fox News put it?? make it "Fair and unbaised" Recomend a fresh new posting to start with as all tanks i am sure will want to chime in of course... It has always been since I can remember (Been playing an SK and I have zero alts since the game first opened its servers) our stance that we shall never compare ourselves to other tanks... We have always put up improvements and tweaks threads... and when a few step out to compare have reminded them that we arent here to be jealous of other tanks but too think of ways to improve upon ourselves.... We dont want to be like other tanks.. we want to do what they do in our own way...I am all for improving Guards a bit in the ae catagory... improving the guard's fun factor.. improving utility without stepping on other classes toes.. whatever you suggest, its gotta be something the guard can specialize and make it its own and not some version of somebody else's.. my 2cpQuote's from SOE's website on their vission of the classes.."Guardians are the anchor of any group of adventurers, providing leadership and protection for their allies. Combining durable armor with an impressive array of defensive skills, Guardians can remain standing after absorbing substantial amounts of physical damage from their enemies. ""The Berserker is the personification of unbridled aggression and fury. They are fearsome opponents, especially when facing many foes at once. Berserkers stand at the forefront of battle, unleashing their devastating rage upon the enemy while keeping unwanted attention away from their allies. ""Shadowknights are malevolent crusaders who wreak fear, hate and despair upon all who would oppose them. In addition to their formidable martial art skills, Shadowknights conjure dark magic with which they can enhance their abilities and drain away the life force of their enemies.""The epitome of honor and valor, Paladins excel in martial combat while employing divine magic to enhance their abilities and strike down their enemies. By invoking both protective and healing magic, the Paladin can often survive battles that would crumble those of lesser resolve."</blockquote>Are you effing serious? You pulled information that was for the initial release of this game to back up your statements? You say you don't want to step on Guardians toes? Yet it seems SK's want all the fun with out the downside of what Guardians have to do to "attempt" to have the same amount of fun. Get real.</blockquote>Their have been many definitions and vissions in the past.. btw, those that I posted from the website are not from the initial release... these are..."Guardians can don the heaviest of armors to protect themselves in combat and aid in the defense of their allies. They stand firm against any threat and bear the brunt of attacks while felling opponents with any of a variety of weapons.""Berzerkers are chaotic warriors who inflict heavy damage with all manner of weapons. They protect themselves by wearing heavy platemail armor. Their furious attacks overwhelm their opponants, to whom they show no mercy.""Shadowknights are insidious dark crusaders who use the power of evil to advance their causes. They live to inflict fear, hate, and despair on all who cross their paths""Paladins are crusaders for all things good and right. Wearing heavy armor, these valiant defenders of truth fight for honor, virtue, and nobility."Nothing wrong with being passionate as long as its channeled into what can be done to improve whatever class is maligned during the current xpansion. Its too easy to pick the current flavor of the month and pick it apart... its just an easy out for frustration as can be seen over and over again with any arch type vs arch type or class vs class... pretty sure the devs are watching and planning their next plan of action for an upcoming GU, hotfix or xpansion... they are gonna do what they are gonna do...Ohhh trust me Crusaders (SK's in particular) "had their turn in attempting to have the same amount of fun as the others did"... Guess its kind of a moot point to say that cuz its common knowledge... statistics proved that gaurds were the most played tank in game followed by zerks then pallies followed by SK's.. Now its most likely flipped with SK's at the head now I can only guess and we can blame TSO for that... Heck we have in our own ranks of vets vs new blood of folks who rolled a toon to play during that time... Crusaders and zerks have the obvious advantage currently... I dont know where the confusion is where i say that guards need a bit of TLC to bring them in line with the other plate tanks.... They arent far behind but a lot closer than before and need a little oomph to push up and over to get there...The devs follow the design dictated by what SOE's vission of the class is.. Each class has thier own way of doing things in accordance to that vission... not to play copy cat but to do what others do in the only way that that class inparticular can do... Every so often lines get blurred where it was ae vs st tanks to who knows whatever it is now... I quoted those in case people forgot what SOE's vission was and what it used to be... what it was that brought them to play and be passionate about their class so much. A bit idealstic?? perhaps..

Wasuna

05-12-2010, 11:56 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite>Well its obvious that the well rounded type of class is what most people prefer to play. And since there is only 1 MT they have moved the other fighter classes to fit into that category...tanks that can tank very well, bring utility, and bring good DPS. In order to compete for each other in the couple of other fighter spots they need to be able to contribute to those areas well. SOE has moved Zerkers, Paladins, and Brawlers towards that category for that very reason. However, the 1 class that still dominates the MT spot is Guards. Now if you add the same utility and DPS capabilities to Guards than with their superior survivability (and yes you are extremely daft if you can't see their advantage in this category) not only will they most definitely secure the spot of MT but they will also be a leading contender for OT.That being said I am one of the few non-Guard people that have put forth ideas to make their Heroic game-play much more enjoyable. Long before SF I talked about a group Moderate and increase Guards threat (with threat crit'ing Guard threat has went up a lot). I also brought up the idea of changing Recapture to an AE ability that lower the hate positions of the Guards group by a few for all engaged mobs.There are plenty of things that can be done to increase a Guards fun-factor in heroic without making them the be all end all in raids.</blockquote>As I have said before, the leading raid group on my server uses a SK. The raid forces I have done a few raids with on my Troubador have a SK MT. I raid very little but every time I do raid it's with a SK MT. Your impression of the advantage of Guardian survivability vs SK survivability is wrong. Also, the ability of Crusaders to do maximum DPS without making the survivability choice that all other fighters have to make is wrong.You can keep saying that your raid force MUST use a Guardian due to his extra survivability so therefore EVERYBODY else has to also. You can keep saying your a Guardian champion and that all Guardians need now is another agro snap (I have 5 already and I lose agro left and right on any long fight without proper transfers even if I had them all up at the beginning of the fight). In the end, people play what is the most effective. The classes that don't get played are less effective (remmember coercers?). I'll continue to post on my class count thread and continue to display that there is imbalance that needs to be fixed.SOE can fix it however they deem necessary. They can buff Guardians or they can smack crusaders. There is an inbalance that needs to be fixed.

Bruener

05-12-2010, 12:41 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite>Well its obvious that the well rounded type of class is what most people prefer to play. And since there is only 1 MT they have moved the other fighter classes to fit into that category...tanks that can tank very well, bring utility, and bring good DPS. In order to compete for each other in the couple of other fighter spots they need to be able to contribute to those areas well. SOE has moved Zerkers, Paladins, and Brawlers towards that category for that very reason. However, the 1 class that still dominates the MT spot is Guards. Now if you add the same utility and DPS capabilities to Guards than with their superior survivability (and yes you are extremely daft if you can't see their advantage in this category) not only will they most definitely secure the spot of MT but they will also be a leading contender for OT.That being said I am one of the few non-Guard people that have put forth ideas to make their Heroic game-play much more enjoyable. Long before SF I talked about a group Moderate and increase Guards threat (with threat crit'ing Guard threat has went up a lot). I also brought up the idea of changing Recapture to an AE ability that lower the hate positions of the Guards group by a few for all engaged mobs.There are plenty of things that can be done to increase a Guards fun-factor in heroic without making them the be all end all in raids.</blockquote>As I have said before, the leading raid group on my server uses a SK. The raid forces I have done a few raids with on my Troubador have a SK MT. I raid very little but every time I do raid it's with a SK MT. Your impression of the advantage of Guardian survivability vs SK survivability is wrong. Also, the ability of Crusaders to do maximum DPS without making the survivability choice that all other fighters have to make is wrong.You can keep saying that your raid force MUST use a Guardian due to his extra survivability so therefore EVERYBODY else has to also. You can keep saying your a Guardian champion and that all Guardians need now is another agro snap (I have 5 already and I lose agro left and right on any long fight without proper transfers even if I had them all up at the beginning of the fight). In the end, people play what is the most effective. The classes that don't get played are less effective (remmember coercers?). I'll continue to post on my class count thread and continue to display that there is imbalance that needs to be fixed.SOE can fix it however they deem necessary. They can buff Guardians or they can smack crusaders. There is an inbalance that needs to be fixed.</blockquote>So wait, lets just back up a little. You said you were making this from the stand-point of a troub....but obviously it is all about your Guard. Ok, glad we cleared that up.

Phelon_Skellhound

05-12-2010, 07:00 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite>Well its obvious that the well rounded type of class is what most people prefer to play. And since there is only 1 MT they have moved the other fighter classes to fit into that category...tanks that can tank very well, bring utility, and bring good DPS. In order to compete for each other in the couple of other fighter spots they need to be able to contribute to those areas well. SOE has moved Zerkers, Paladins, and Brawlers towards that category for that very reason. However, the 1 class that still dominates the MT spot is Guards. Now if you add the same utility and DPS capabilities to Guards than with their superior survivability (and yes you are extremely daft if you can't see their advantage in this category) not only will they most definitely secure the spot of MT but they will also be a leading contender for OT.That being said I am one of the few non-Guard people that have put forth ideas to make their Heroic game-play much more enjoyable. Long before SF I talked about a group Moderate and increase Guards threat (with threat crit'ing Guard threat has went up a lot). I also brought up the idea of changing Recapture to an AE ability that lower the hate positions of the Guards group by a few for all engaged mobs.There are plenty of things that can be done to increase a Guards fun-factor in heroic without making them the be all end all in raids.</blockquote>As I have said before, the leading raid group on my server uses a SK. The raid forces I have done a few raids with on my Troubador have a SK MT. I raid very little but every time I do raid it's with a SK MT. Your impression of the advantage of Guardian survivability vs SK survivability is wrong. Also, the ability of Crusaders to do maximum DPS without making the survivability choice that all other fighters have to make is wrong.You can keep saying that your raid force MUST use a Guardian due to his extra survivability so therefore EVERYBODY else has to also. You can keep saying your a Guardian champion and that all Guardians need now is another agro snap (I have 5 already and I lose agro left and right on any long fight without proper transfers even if I had them all up at the beginning of the fight). In the end, people play what is the most effective. The classes that don't get played are less effective (remmember coercers?). I'll continue to post on my class count thread and continue to display that there is imbalance that needs to be fixed.SOE can fix it however they deem necessary. They can buff Guardians or they can smack crusaders. There is an inbalance that needs to be fixed.</blockquote>Have been raiding with the same guild since DoF and can tell you that MT choices are decided not only by skill but by chance, by RL events and by the ever changing game mechanics as each xpansion is introduced... Its an evolution, pauper one day king the next... I was lucky to join a raid guild early on as an SK, others were not *shrug*(MT/OT) SK = me of courseDoF - guild forms Pally/GuardEoF - gave Vanguard a shot... that was a mistakeRoK - Guard/Zerker or another Guard later we lost our warriors to RL did Pally/SK... Pally took a break... SK/any tank we had on..TSO - SK/Zerker or sometimes PallySF - Zerker/SKA majority do play flavor of the month classes and its been proven over and over again, but there are those scant few that refuse and swim up the current against trends because that is what they want to play... There is a gap currently and guards in my opinion need the attention... they arent broken just a bit of touching up is needed aye... Just how the devs handle it? I dunno...

Shorcon

05-18-2010, 08:42 PM

I love how the SK's on this board act as if they dont see thier class as having advantage over every single other tank. The gap between the crusaders is lessening by the day. Crusaders are now both the hybrid and pure tanks. Gaurdians are now the if you got skill enough try this class. SK=0 Skill to tankGaurdian=Skill just might not be enough to tank. Crusaders are overpowered. PERIOD. I can't wait to hear it. Come on easy button no skill [Removed for Content]. Let me have the what for. Edited to add: Raaaaaaaaage

Kaarim

05-19-2010, 07:04 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote> I run instances and the SK's are doing serious DPS and a real nice amount of healing. Heck, when on my Troubador the other night the SK was in an on-going DPS contect with the Warlock and I had UT on the Warlock! They were in the same raid guild so I assume they had basically equal tear gear. Just so you know, the SK was wearing plate and the Warlock was wearing cloth. Also, just so you know, the SK had the highest DPS for about 30% of the fights in that instance.</blockquote><div>No warlock should ever be outparse by an SK in an AoE fight or even a Single target fight specially with UT. UNLESS it's a group instance. (In your case it's a group instance..)Instance parses..okay sorcerers are the slowest casting mages out there...instance mobs don't have much HP at all. A Crusader..or any tank for that matter casts way faster than a mage. I think any other class besides healers cast faster than a sorcerer lol. When you have a crusader vs. Wiz/Lock in a single group instance they'll parse higher or if they suck just under the mage. Mainly because the mobs just don't live long enough to acumulate damage over time. In instance AOE fights mobs HP is even lesser..so...that mage might get maybe 3 or 4 spells off lol. I have noticed a trend though..people complain more about classes in regular instance oppose to raids. Classes shine different under different circumstances and levels of play. IE Group vs. Raid. <div></div><cite>JoarAddam wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just ground through 5 pages of this thread and there isn't one parse. </blockquote>Here's an example of my last raidsAoE fight and Single target encounter. Oh and my HPS ZW is between 300-400 so I know the healing thing is just...a joke. My grp setup for this night: SK (dark), Wiz (hevenly), Illy, Inq, Mystic, Brig (flingin) (we were down a bard) AOE fight before Azaar the seer in PalaceWarlock, Conj, SK, Wiz, Coercer, Swash, Necro, Fury, Assassin, Troub, Brig, Coercer, Dirge, Guard, Paladin, Dirge<img src="http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb177/AKM_album/parser.jpg?t=1274306749" width="914" height="264" />Single Target fightAzaar the seerWarlock, Brig, SK, Coercer, Assassin, Swash, Wiz, Con, Necro, Guard, Coercer, Dirge, Paladin, Troub, Dirge.I don't joust these fights so my single target matches + or - similar to single target classes. If I jousted would obviously have dropped. Fortunately I'm mainly T2 geared. <img src="http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb177/AKM_album/parser2.jpg?t=1274306779" width="859" height="248" />Usually our ZW look like this:Assassin-Warlock-Wizard-Conj-SK-Swash-Brig-Necro-followed by whatever else..utility and healers. Our MT guard holds hate fine against us sure his DPS isn't like everyone elses..but who cares he's holding hate against classes doing 20-50k+ on single targets. *edit* fixed broken links.</div>

Shorcon

05-19-2010, 07:27 PM

<cite>Darkerwarrior@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote> I run instances and the SK's are doing serious DPS and a real nice amount of healing. Heck, when on my Troubador the other night the SK was in an on-going DPS contect with the Warlock and I had UT on the Warlock! They were in the same raid guild so I assume they had basically equal tear gear. Just so you know, the SK was wearing plate and the Warlock was wearing cloth. Also, just so you know, the SK had the highest DPS for about 30% of the fights in that instance.</blockquote><div>No warlock should ever be outparse by an SK in an AoE fight or even a Single target fight specially with UT. UNLESS it's a group instance. (In your case it's a group instance..)Instance parses..okay sorcerers are the slowest casting mages out there...instance mobs don't have much HP at all. A Crusader..or any tank for that matter casts way faster than a mage. I think any other class besides healers cast faster than a sorcerer lol. When you have a crusader vs. Wiz/Lock in a single group instance they'll parse higher or if they suck just under the mage. Mainly because the mobs just don't live long enough to acumulate damage over time. In instance AOE fights mobs HP is even lesser..so...that mage might get maybe 3 or 4 spells off lol. I have noticed a trend though..people complain more about classes in regular instance oppose to raids. Classes shine different under different circumstances and levels of play. IE Group vs. Raid. <div>Are you trying to convince us that it is absolutely right that an SK will parse with a mage of any kind? That a now pure tank will parse with any dps?</div><cite>JoarAddam wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just ground through 5 pages of this thread and there isn't one parse. </blockquote>Here's an example of my last raidsAoE fight and Single target encounter. Oh and my HPS ZW is between 300-400 so I know the healing thing is just...a joke. My grp setup for this night: SK (dark), Wiz (hevenly), Illy, Inq, Mystic, Brig (flingin) (we were down a bard) AOE fight before Azaar the seer in PalaceWarlock, Conj, SK, Wiz, Coercer, Swash, Necro, Fury, Assassin, Troub, Brig, Coercer, Dirge, Guard, Paladin, Dirge<img src="http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb177/AKM_album/parser.jpg?t=1274306749" width="914" height="264" />Single Target fightAzaar the seerWarlock, Brig, SK, Coercer, Assassin, Swash, Wiz, Con, Necro, Guard, Coercer, Dirge, Paladin, Troub, Dirge.I don't joust these fights so my single target matches + or - similar to single target classes. If I jousted would obviously have dropped. Fortunately I'm mainly T2 geared. <img src="http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb177/AKM_album/parser2.jpg?t=1274306779" width="859" height="248" />Usually our ZW look like this:Assassin-Warlock-Wizard-Conj-SK-Swash-Brig-Necro-followed by whatever else..utility and healers. Our MT guard holds hate fine against us sure his DPS isn't like everyone elses..but who cares he's holding hate against classes doing 20-50k+ on single targets. All this parse says to me is SK is broken. You could be top of parse with cross raid buffs O stance in MT grp main tanking. You would also be in the middle of the heal parse somewere. With 3 deathsaves I would say SK is still way overpowered. They are doing 3 jobs. They are doing 2 jobs better than anyone; Hate/DPS, in the tanking comunity. They are also equal in survivability to the warriors. This parse is going against any claim that SK is not overpowered. It shows there OP in the DPS situation as no tank but the dps tanks brawlers should parse higher than any sum/sorc rogue/pred and this should be in very dependant situations. SK's in thier present state have it all. *edit* fixed broken links.</div></blockquote>I'm the red text.

Kaarim

05-19-2010, 08:10 PM

<cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><div> All this parse says to me is SK is broken. You could be top of parse with cross raid buffs O stance in MT grp main tanking. You would also be in the middle of the heal parse somewere. With 3 deathsaves I would say SK is still way overpowered. They are doing 3 jobs. They are doing 2 jobs better than anyone; Hate/DPS, in the tanking comunity. They are also equal in survivability to the warriors. This parse is going against any claim that SK is not overpowered. It shows there OP in the DPS situation as no tank but the dps tanks brawlers should parse higher than any sum/sorc rogue/pred and this should be in very dependant situations. SK's in thier present state have it all. *edit* fixed broken links.</div></blockquote></blockquote>Well to refer to your "could be". I've MT'd a few of our raids..and I've never topped the parse. Yeah my DPS would be higher but..not high enough to be topped. I never out DPS our T1 DPS classes ZW. If TC/UT can be put on more than one mage I would guarntee all our mages would be above me. The ones with the buffs are above me which is obvious. As for the healing..I can post the heal parse for those same fights. Or you can trust when I say I was only 1% of the healing done. Again my ZW heals are only between 300-400HPS on a regular basis.... You're saying brawlers are the only DPS tanks. It's now become Crusaders and Zerkers. The only one that cannot compete with DPS is a Guardian...because they're primary structure is to hold hate and take the hit. They do need to make brawlers more appealing some how though..I think they need to give em more utility IMO and tweak their abilities..Guardians...IDK seem fine. I mean our guard holds aggro..and doesn't die. What else do you need a Guardian for? Our Pally..and our previous zerk seem fine with DPS aggro and taking hits. Hell zerkers don't even need to use shields anymore to DPS and tank. The difference between the 3 of us though is that the other 2 wear the tank set. I wear the DPS set. Only time I switch is if I have to tank a named...but that's really rare since we have a Guard...and Paladin is back up. If I wore my tank set those numbers would be a lot less. I don't have to wear it though so..why not help the raid out by killing stuff quicker. Usually on ZW I'm anywhere between 4-6th place. Which is..normal I think since we only have roughly 7 DPS classes (that are not tanks). *edit*Should add to the longer the fight the more in favor it is for a Shadowknight or any type of DoT class like a Lock or Necro.The shorter the fight the less beneficial our DoTs are since they don't cycle quick or tick fast enough. The primary source of our DPS is auto attack. Now I know someone is going to say you got the knight stance AA that increase the 1hander dmg with shield. Wanna know a secret though? I use a 2H. The one from X2. So most of the time Knight Stance is personally useless to me. I dunno about other crusaders they most likely do not have a good 2H weapon. There's no one hander out there that can do the damage that this 2H is capable of even with that knight stance AA.

asaron

05-19-2010, 08:33 PM

All this QQ what about zerkers they are insane atm?

Orthureon

05-20-2010, 01:32 PM

<cite>asaron wrote:</cite><blockquote>All this QQ what about zerkers they are insane atm?</blockquote>Zerkers OP ability has already been nerfed on Test, move along.

Kaarim

05-20-2010, 04:26 PM

<cite>asaron wrote:</cite><blockquote>All this QQ what about zerkers they are insane atm?</blockquote>Our old zerk does the same amount of DPS I do on aoe fights and single targets..and can tank better for some reason..while using a 2h or DWing. I have to use a shield or I get owned while tanking lol. I got parses of those too if anyone is interested...lol Only tank that sucks for DPS is a guardian and they're not even meant to do DPS at all. Yet you still have guards doing 20ks in raid on top of their hate. I dunno plate tanks all seem fine to me. Brawlers IMO seriously could use some utility to make em more appealing for a group/raid.

Macross_JR

05-20-2010, 05:16 PM

<cite>Darkerwarrior@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>asaron wrote:</cite><blockquote>All this QQ what about zerkers they are insane atm?</blockquote>Our old zerk does the same amount of DPS I do on aoe fights and single targets..and can tank better for some reason..while using a 2h or DWing. I have to use a shield or I get owned while tanking lol. I got parses of those too if anyone is interested...lol Only tank that sucks for DPS is a guardian and they're not even meant to do DPS at all. Yet you still have guards doing 20ks in raid on top of their hate. I dunno plate tanks all seem fine to me. Brawlers IMO seriously could use some utility to make em more appealing for a group/raid. </blockquote>Guardians are not complaining about our dps, we know for the most part we are not meant to be dps machines, the problem is total threat. That right there is what is making SK's OP. They have way too many ways to generate hate compared to any other tank in the game at the moment(I would say Pally is right up there with them with HG). That is what needs to be looked into.

Kaarim

05-20-2010, 08:01 PM

<cite>Githil@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guardians are not complaining about our dps, we know for the most part we are not meant to be dps machines, the problem is total threat. That right there is what is making SK's OP. They have way too many ways to generate hate compared to any other tank in the game at the moment(I would say Pally is right up there with them with HG). That is what needs to be looked into.</blockquote>Crusaders always held aggro by DPS anyway. I've been doing it that way since I started raiding in KoS. Yeah but what about zerkers..they are capable of doing the same DPS as a crusader..without giving up survivability and also hold hate and have several tools for snap and positional hate. Guards hold fine with hate specially with this expansion...An SK has a total of: 3 or 4 ways of generating hate by abilities. With the exception of Caress Feedback and Amends.These are the hate tools a SK has. You got your generic AoE taunt then you got your generic single target taunt. AoE taunt on a 30s timer single on a 10s timer. The AoE taunt is also a debuff, the single target taunt has a small dot component on it. Then you have Grave Sacrament 2min30s recast 2min with adornment it's an aoe rescue to put in short with a hate tick and dot to the component. Thats probably about it for hate..unless you wanna count the generic shield bash ability on a 30s timer. Death March is waaay to weak to even be used as a "taunt". If you take a look at the Crusader hate parse in the previous page compared to a guardians you'll see we don't have much abilities to go on. The hate on Grave Sacrament and Holy Ground has been nerfed for this expansion. Might as well just strip the hate component on it then if it's some how an issue... Which I know really it's not..me and our pally use those two abilities primairly for DPS not hate..our guard seems to do fine taking the mob back after positional swaps. What exactly is there to be nerfed? Can't even say heals. A pallies ZW heal is like 400-600 if in decent gear. Mine are personally from 200-400 and I'm in T2 raid gear. Hell we have an assassin healing for 100-200 because of their weapon and item procs. lol Believe it or not a berzerker out heals a crusader ...well at least an SK ZW lol. Shocking right? 4 Plate fighters are living up to what their class is design to do. Maybe just make Guardians handle AoE's too..but then they would just be called a berzerker.. Guarderker

Dreadpatch

05-20-2010, 08:43 PM

I find it LOL that the only class that defends Crusader especially SK l33tness are pretty much SK's. Like I said before, I'm on a PVE server, so having OP tanks is fine. But from an independent stand point, the OP ness of it all is blantantly obvious.

Phelon_Skellhound

05-21-2010, 02:02 AM

<cite>Elusion@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>I find it LOL that the only class that defends Crusader especially SK l33tness are pretty much SK's. Like I said before, I'm on a PVE server, so having OP tanks is fine. But from an independent stand point, the OP ness of it all is blantantly obvious.</blockquote>Not true.. we also defend pallies, zerkers, brawlers and guards...

Macross_JR

05-21-2010, 07:15 AM

<cite>Darkerwarrior@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Githil@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guardians are not complaining about our dps, we know for the most part we are not meant to be dps machines, the problem is total threat. That right there is what is making SK's OP. They have way too many ways to generate hate compared to any other tank in the game at the moment(I would say Pally is right up there with them with HG). That is what needs to be looked into.</blockquote>Crusaders always held aggro by DPS anyway. I've been doing it that way since I started raiding in KoS. Yeah but what about zerkers..they are capable of doing the same DPS as a crusader..without giving up survivability and also hold hate and have several tools for snap and positional hate. Guards hold fine with hate specially with this expansion...An SK has a total of: 3 or 4 ways of generating hate by abilities. With the exception of Caress Feedback and Amends.These are the hate tools a SK has. You got your generic AoE taunt then you got your generic single target taunt. AoE taunt on a 30s timer single on a 10s timer. The AoE taunt is also a debuff, the single target taunt has a small dot component on it. Then you have Grave Sacrament 2min30s recast 2min with adornment it's an aoe rescue to put in short with a hate tick and dot to the component. Thats probably about it for hate..unless you wanna count the generic shield bash ability on a 30s timer. Death March is waaay to weak to even be used as a "taunt". If you take a look at the Crusader hate parse in the previous page compared to a guardians you'll see we don't have much abilities to go on. The hate on Grave Sacrament and Holy Ground has been nerfed for this expansion. Might as well just strip the hate component on it then if it's some how an issue... Which I know really it's not..me and our pally use those two abilities primairly for DPS not hate..our guard seems to do fine taking the mob back after positional swaps. What exactly is there to be nerfed? Can't even say heals. A pallies ZW heal is like 400-600 if in decent gear. Mine are personally from 200-400 and I'm in T2 raid gear. Hell we have an assassin healing for 100-200 because of their weapon and item procs. lol Believe it or not a berzerker out heals a crusader ...well at least an SK ZW lol. Shocking right? 4 Plate fighters are living up to what their class is design to do. Maybe just make Guardians handle AoE's too..but then they would just be called a berzerker.. Guarderker</blockquote>You must not count the huge proc from your epic then huh? the 300% of the amount of lifetaps getting added to hate, oh and all the aa's that add lifetap effects...oh, but that doesn't count for sk's? Do you honestly think Holy Ground was nerfed? Sure part of it did, but you must not have seen the huge amount of dps it does added with hate each time a pally hits...oh, but that doesn't count either does it? Point being, a SK or Pally going full out has so much hate going to them it's crazy. Now like I said, I'm not worried about how much DPS those classes do, I'm talking about how much hate those classes create. Oh, and zerkers sure do have to lose survivability to get the amount of dps Crusaders do. They have to DW to generate the amount of DPS Crusaders do while using a shield. So unless you can debunc my points stated here, you don't know what you are talking about.

Bruener

05-21-2010, 11:20 AM

Kaarim

05-21-2010, 05:28 PM

<cite>Githil@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>You must not count the huge proc from your epic then huh? the 300% of the amount of lifetaps getting added to hate, oh and all the aa's that add lifetap effects...oh, but that doesn't count for sk's? Do you honestly think Holy Ground was nerfed? Sure part of it did, but you must not have seen the huge amount of dps it does added with hate each time a pally hits...oh, but that doesn't count either does it? Point being, a SK or Pally going full out has so much hate going to them it's crazy. Now like I said, I'm not worried about how much DPS those classes do, I'm talking about how much hate those classes create. Oh, and zerkers sure do have to lose survivability to get the amount of dps Crusaders do. They have to DW to generate the amount of DPS Crusaders do while using a shield. So unless you can debunc my points stated here, you don't know what you are talking about.</blockquote>K I'll debunk and yes I do know what I'm talking about. Since I've played a Crusader for the last 2 EverQuest games..loland been a solo/group/raid player.1.) That mythical proc you're talking about only works on lifetaps if you're green HP the whole time that's 0. If I was like yellow constantly I would give you a +1 for that...if you're in a horrible raiding guild or group for instances the proc would benefit. If you are with healers who well..heal and keep you alive. Then the hate on it is redundant. As I said...as an SK MY HPS ZW IS 200-400 lol...**God no one can read.*** Again ZW HPS is anywhere between 200-400. lol2.) Holy Grounds threat was nerf so not sure what you're getting at. They got rid of the super hate on it and tossed a damage proc and threat. That's even if they attack lands to proc it.3.) I'm an experienced SK..our Pally is an experienced player yeah we go all out and use those abilities we don't believe in hindering ourselves because someone else can't do their job; fortunately we have a great Guardian who maintains hate...the issue is what? Get a new MT. Only time he can't compete with us is on AoE fights..and that's not what his job is meant for..it's ours. 4.) Do you seriously know any zerkers that tank right now with a shield? I don't..lol they don't have to. Any smart Crusader would drop their shield and sword for the X2 two hander that out DPS any one handed game with shield and knight stance AA. Crusaders have less ways of creating hate than warriors but we make it up with DPS..with the exception of a zerker. Look at it this way; we're berzerkers that can heal. Ironic thing is that Zerkers out heal crusaders (particularly SK) ZW.....maybe they should nerf Zerkers? I wouldn't cry nerf on them..they're doing their jobs we're doing ours and guardians are doing theirs. Plate tanks are on nearly even field to what their primary roles are meant to be. Brawlers I feel soon would gain quiet a bit utility and boost to DPS from their utility.*edit*lol Sorry to laugh I do like how you added the 300% hate to lifetap. But unfortunately if you're HP is green zoned you won't be generating barely anything. Unless an SK intentionally says "hey healer wait till my HP is about 45% then heal so I can lifetap to get hate." Healer says "uhhh sure?" (thinks the sk is a noob). Sk is all like "YEAAAH I'M GONNA PWN ON THE HATE NOW GO GO LIFETAPS!" SK gets one shotted because the healer stopped. Healer says to guild leader "can we boot him now?". . What the SK didn't know is that...it's on a 2.4 min proc rate and more than likely didn't have the lifetap hate proc even up.

Phelon_Skellhound

05-21-2010, 07:28 PM

I have heard that some abilities were reduced on test.. if they get pushed to live... then its another game of wait and see... but until it does its how it is now... I dont know the full scale of the balance changes but we (tanks) all got hit... question is... will they fully disclose all nerfs? or only tell us about the ones worth mentioning? hmmm *shrug*

Boucu

05-21-2010, 10:16 PM

Ok... I only read the first 2 pages, didnt feel like reading the rest since this topic comes up on a weekly if not daily basis. I have a 90/250 SK. Can i solo 95x4 epic? Pffft hell no, id get my butt handed to me, can i go to a new instance and solo multiple heroics? More than likely not, perhaps 1? it might be a close fight if i survive it. No i dont have any new raid gear or BG gear (never did BG.. not interested) Still have some T3 shard armor and some of the new Leg armor. My dps has increasesed alot, TSO i was doing 3-7k dps, SF im doing 9-20k dps. Some sweet increase to my dps BUT that doesnt really make me more of a tank in this expansion. I have more aggro issues now than i ever had in TSO, even with Dirge and hate transfer from other dps, i still cannot hold aggro 100% of the time, prob more around 80-85%. So as someone who has been playing an SK for 1-2 years i have to so SK's are NOT OP. I beleive Berzerkers are now the top tank, since i have seen them parse higher and take damage better than i can. Guards... idk, i dont group with many guards if any at all since they all have seem to /emo quit. It all comes down to Gear.. if you have the gear, then you can do almost anything.

Macross_JR

05-22-2010, 08:42 AM

Shorcon

05-24-2010, 04:45 PM

<cite>Boucuka wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok... I only read the first 2 pages, didnt feel like reading the rest since this topic comes up on a weekly if not daily basis. I have a 90/250 SK. Can i solo 95x4 epic? Pffft hell no, id get my butt handed to me, can i go to a new instance and solo multiple heroics? More than likely not, perhaps 1? it might be a close fight if i survive it. No i dont have any new raid gear or BG gear (never did BG.. not interested) Still have some T3 shard armor and some of the new Leg armor. My dps has increasesed alot, TSO i was doing 3-7k dps, SF im doing 9-20k dps. Some sweet increase to my dps BUT that doesnt really make me more of a tank in this expansion. I have more aggro issues now than i ever had in TSO, even with Dirge and hate transfer from other dps, i still cannot hold aggro 100% of the time, prob more around 80-85%. So as someone who has been playing an SK for 1-2 years i have to so SK's are NOT OP. I beleive Berzerkers are now the top tank, since i have seen them parse higher and take damage better than i can. Guards... idk, i dont group with many guards if any at all since they all have seem to /emo quit. It all comes down to Gear.. if you have the gear, then you can do almost anything.</blockquote>Your opinion is that SK's are not OP. 2 years into the game and testing on a very undergeared underskilled SK is your situation. I have many sk friends who freely admit the SK is OP and not just OP but godlike in many situations. Hopefully GU56 see's some changes.I MT in a top 2 raid guild on my server with a guardian. This isn't something alot of gaurdians get the honor to do. A poorly played SK with decent gear can do with easy button what a very skilled Guardian can do. guardians have very little room for error. They are the opposite of the SK. They are WAY underpowered. I love the /emo quit statement though. You make it sound like they just ran to easybutton SK or another class with no forethought or reason. No this has been a looooong on going situation for guardians. Many guardians who leveled through EQ2 original to 50 or 60 through DOF paid a heafty fee to have the ability to MT raids better than any class. That was taken away by moving the hybrids into the pure tanks.

Bruener

05-24-2010, 04:55 PM

<cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boucuka wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok... I only read the first 2 pages, didnt feel like reading the rest since this topic comes up on a weekly if not daily basis. I have a 90/250 SK. Can i solo 95x4 epic? Pffft hell no, id get my butt handed to me, can i go to a new instance and solo multiple heroics? More than likely not, perhaps 1? it might be a close fight if i survive it. No i dont have any new raid gear or BG gear (never did BG.. not interested) Still have some T3 shard armor and some of the new Leg armor. My dps has increasesed alot, TSO i was doing 3-7k dps, SF im doing 9-20k dps. Some sweet increase to my dps BUT that doesnt really make me more of a tank in this expansion. I have more aggro issues now than i ever had in TSO, even with Dirge and hate transfer from other dps, i still cannot hold aggro 100% of the time, prob more around 80-85%. So as someone who has been playing an SK for 1-2 years i have to so SK's are NOT OP. I beleive Berzerkers are now the top tank, since i have seen them parse higher and take damage better than i can. Guards... idk, i dont group with many guards if any at all since they all have seem to /emo quit. It all comes down to Gear.. if you have the gear, then you can do almost anything.</blockquote>Your opinion is that SK's are not OP. 2 years into the game and testing on a very undergeared underskilled SK is your situation. I have many sk friends who freely admit the SK is OP and not just OP but godlike in many situations. Hopefully GU56 see's some changes.I MT in a top 2 raid guild on my server with a guardian. This isn't something alot of gaurdians get the honor to do. A poorly played SK with decent gear can do with easy button what a very skilled Guardian can do. guardians have very little room for error. They are the opposite of the SK. They are WAY underpowered. I love the /emo quit statement though. You make it sound like they just ran to easybutton SK or another class with no forethought or reason. No this has been a looooong on going situation for guardians. Many guardians who leveled through EQ2 original to 50 or 60 through DOF paid a heafty fee to have the ability to MT raids better than any class. That was taken away by moving the hybrids into the pure tanks.</blockquote>Good thing that Hybrid doesn't mean "less tank". Hybrid has always meant the use of both spell and melee to do the same job as other that might use pure one way or another.Guards may have paid a "hefty" price in DoF, but it was no more of a price that SKs had to pay with their stupid ToT changes. Not to mention that it was just 1 xpac later that Guards saw the completely OP'd Buckler line that lasted thru RoK for their reign of dominating all other fighters.Niether here nor there though because this is SF. The xpac where almost everybody is having a great time playing their fighter. SOE, like other games, has acknowledged that people want to have fun playing fighters...not be some taunt bot. Brawlers/Crusaders/Zerks are all fitting the bill now and Guards need a couple of tweaks to get them back on the right page. People can pretend otherwise but balance is extremely close now.

Prestissimo

05-28-2010, 05:49 AM

Put all the tanks into the exact same mastercrafted 82 gear with all expert spells and the "average" AA spec for the class with about 200 AAs to use.THEN compare them and try to honestly say that the paladins are as OP as SKs.As for what bruener wrote, I have to agree that guards got their cake, cookies, and ice cream several fold over and that the crusaders deserved to have their cookie. Just like SKs desperately deserved to have their cookie after being borked for pretty much LU13 and on. Does that mean I agree with making the SK disgustingly OP for almost all of TSO? No. Does it mean that I think there is absolutely nothing that a paladin can beat another tank at? Of course not, paladins have their niche, BUT it keeps getting whittled away at and nothing is getting put back into our arsenal to replace our effective loss of the one thing we did better than anyone else. Crying that the guards got a taste of what the other fighters felt for years is not without justice in it's own right.Back in RoK, do you have any idea how annoying it was to see people say "you're a paladin, heal yourself." when our heals were 400-600 hp per and cost about 200 power each, 2-3 second cast per, and got interrupted like crazy? Do you have any idea how rediculously hard it was to try to hold hate as a shadowknight in kos? It's about the same as putting a guard up against a warlock and swashy in B:CoA and telling the guard to stop sucking.Paladins got much needed love to their heals, and it was a LITTLE bit more than needed and really nothing else was directly improved, but to outright call paladins across the board OP is completely wrong.

Netty

05-29-2010, 11:38 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Githil@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>You must not count the huge proc from your epic then huh? the 300% of the amount of lifetaps getting added to hate, oh and all the aa's that add lifetap effects...oh, but that doesn't count for sk's? Do you honestly think Holy Ground was nerfed? Sure part of it did, but you must not have seen the huge amount of dps it does added with hate each time a pally hits...oh, but that doesn't count either does it? Point being, a SK or Pally going full out has so much hate going to them it's crazy. Now like I said, I'm not worried about how much DPS those classes do, I'm talking about how much hate those classes create. Oh, and zerkers sure do have to lose survivability to get the amount of dps Crusaders do. They have to DW to generate the amount of DPS Crusaders do while using a shield. So unless you can debunc my points stated here, you don't know what you are talking about.</blockquote>Well yes Zerkers do give up some survivability. But when you can take 50% less damage than any other tank for more than half the time its not a loss compared to all the other fighters.Everybody keeps mentioning the SK mythical with 300% hate from lifetaps. Do you people even realize how small of an amount lifetaps actually heal. I can look at parses while tanking raids and my lifetaps will do less than 100hps. It is tiny, sometimes not even close to that.Really Crusaders, Zerkers, and Brawlers are very pleased with their classes this x-pac. That leaves just Guards to get a couple tweaks to make them just as happy. The few people that would just love to see other classes get nerfed into uselessness really need to just enjoy the game and the fixes they saw to their classes that make them awesome.</blockquote>50% half of the time? have you ever played a zerk? you know how long AD last every time you push it? everytime you go berserk again it cancel the buff. Its not even near half of the time. Im not complain about zerks this expansion since they are in nice shape imo. Crusaders are however OP all know this.All you say is that guards where OP in rok.. And many can agree that the guard myth in rok was OP. But how long did it last befor it got nerfed? It dident last long at all.To end it. To fix it they dont need to give guards a boost. Sure they need to do that tho. but they still have to put crusaders where they should be at. Then we can start talking about balance.

Maamadex

05-30-2010, 11:42 AM

Still seems like to me, guards need some tweaks more than crusaders need nerfs. We can talk about taking crusaders down a peg or two and all that, but to be perfectly honest I've never seen the fighters so close to being balanced in all the years I've played this game.

Bruener

05-30-2010, 06:27 PM

<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Githil@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>You must not count the huge proc from your epic then huh? the 300% of the amount of lifetaps getting added to hate, oh and all the aa's that add lifetap effects...oh, but that doesn't count for sk's? Do you honestly think Holy Ground was nerfed? Sure part of it did, but you must not have seen the huge amount of dps it does added with hate each time a pally hits...oh, but that doesn't count either does it? Point being, a SK or Pally going full out has so much hate going to them it's crazy. Now like I said, I'm not worried about how much DPS those classes do, I'm talking about how much hate those classes create. Oh, and zerkers sure do have to lose survivability to get the amount of dps Crusaders do. They have to DW to generate the amount of DPS Crusaders do while using a shield. So unless you can debunc my points stated here, you don't know what you are talking about.</blockquote>Well yes Zerkers do give up some survivability. But when you can take 50% less damage than any other tank for more than half the time its not a loss compared to all the other fighters.Everybody keeps mentioning the SK mythical with 300% hate from lifetaps. Do you people even realize how small of an amount lifetaps actually heal. I can look at parses while tanking raids and my lifetaps will do less than 100hps. It is tiny, sometimes not even close to that.Really Crusaders, Zerkers, and Brawlers are very pleased with their classes this x-pac. That leaves just Guards to get a couple tweaks to make them just as happy. The few people that would just love to see other classes get nerfed into uselessness really need to just enjoy the game and the fixes they saw to their classes that make them awesome.</blockquote>50% half of the time? have you ever played a zerk? you know how long AD last every time you push it? everytime you go berserk again it cancel the buff. Its not even near half of the time. Im not complain about zerks this expansion since they are in nice shape imo. Crusaders are however OP all know this.All you say is that guards where OP in rok.. And many can agree that the guard myth in rok was OP. But how long did it last befor it got nerfed? It dident last long at all.To end it. To fix it they dont need to give guards a boost. Sure they need to do that tho. but they still have to put crusaders where they should be at. Then we can start talking about balance.</blockquote>I am talking about Adrenaline. You know the ability that lasts 32 seconds on a 1 min recast. Reduces all incoming damage by 50%. Yes you have to be Bezerk to have the ability working but a tanking Zerker will be in constant Bezerk since they are procing both on doing damage and on taking damage.So to "end it" Zerks are laying low while Crusaders are taking a lot of heat even though they are in just as good of shape. Brawlers got a ton of luving and as it is starting to show are probably the most survival tanks out there being able to get a lot higher avoid and still being able to hit mit cap. That leaves Guards needing a little luv.

Netty

05-30-2010, 08:08 PM

Yes? and what did i talk about? get your facts right... I have never ever had AD up for max duration... its mostly cancel after a few secs. So no this 50% less damage all the time is BS.

Bruener

05-30-2010, 11:13 PM

<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes? and what did i talk about? get your facts right... I have never ever had AD up for max duration... its mostly cancel after a few secs. So no this 50% less damage all the time is BS.</blockquote>Lol, I started an alt Zerker for giggles and even at level 25 without mods or anything Bezerk is up almost all the time solo.Great try though. The fact is the class is a great class to play and on the level with Crusaders easily.

Netty

05-31-2010, 12:47 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes? and what did i talk about? get your facts right... I have never ever had AD up for max duration... its mostly cancel after a few secs. So no this 50% less damage all the time is BS.</blockquote>Lol, I started an alt Zerker for giggles and even at level 25 without mods or anything Bezerk is up almost all the time solo.Great try though. The fact is the class is a great class to play and on the level with Crusaders easily.</blockquote>Great try? about to write stuff you cant on this forum. As i stated it doesent matter if you feel berserk is up 100 of the time. as soon as berserk cancel AD does aswell. We are not talking about what state the zerk class is in. We are talking about your claim that zerks take 50% less damge half of the time. Drag you zerk to 90 do some groups/raids check how long and how often you have it up.

Orthureon

05-31-2010, 01:44 PM

<cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Put all the tanks into the exact same mastercrafted 82 gear with all expert spells and the "average" AA spec for the class with about 200 AAs to use.THEN compare them and try to honestly say that the paladins are as OP as SKs.As for what bruener wrote, I have to agree that guards got their cake, cookies, and ice cream several fold over and that the crusaders deserved to have their cookie. Just like SKs desperately deserved to have their cookie after being borked for pretty much LU13 and on. Does that mean I agree with making the SK disgustingly OP for almost all of TSO? No. Does it mean that I think there is absolutely nothing that a paladin can beat another tank at? Of course not, paladins have their niche, BUT it keeps getting whittled away at and nothing is getting put back into our arsenal to replace our effective loss of the one thing we did better than anyone else. Crying that the guards got a taste of what the other fighters felt for years is not without justice in it's own right.Back in RoK, do you have any idea how annoying it was to see people say "you're a paladin, heal yourself." when our heals were 400-600 hp per and cost about 200 power each, 2-3 second cast per, and got interrupted like crazy? Do you have any idea how rediculously hard it was to try to hold hate as a shadowknight in kos? It's about the same as putting a guard up against a warlock and swashy in B:CoA and telling the guard to stop sucking.Paladins got much needed love to their heals, and it was a LITTLE bit more than needed and really nothing else was directly improved, but to outright call paladins across the board OP is completely wrong.</blockquote>Man oh man... it is a sad day when someone is so blind they cannot see the truth. Both Crusaders are equally as overpowered. I have both at 90, this is not a selective oh nerf Sks or nerf Paladins, or even nerf SKs less than Paladins etc. It is a simple request for the devs to take a hard look at these classes. They ARE out of whack. Lets compare!<ol><li>A Paladin can hold top rank or close to top rank on the hate list while afk if the person they put Amends on is any good.<ul><li>An Sk needs to be at the keyboard to hold aggro, unless they pop GS in which case they will hold aggro for a little bit.</li></ul></li><li>A Paladin can heal for 2-5k HPS.<ul><li>A SK can heal for 1-2k HPS</li></ul></li><li>A Paladins cast time on nearly all of their heals are 0.75s if specced for it<ul><li>A Sks innate cast time on most of their lifetaps is 0.5s</li></ul></li><li>A Paladins heals range from medium to very large heals<ul><li>A Sks heals range from low to very high (Tap Veins)</li></ul></li><li>A Paladins heals cannot be resisted<ul><li>A Sks heals can be resisted.</li></ul></li><li>A Paladin can heal to full instantly with the presence of one mob<ul><li>A Sk can only heal to full instantly with the presence of multiple mobs. This is not counting BL in which case the SK died.</li></ul></li><li>A Paladin can use his deathsave while solo, but it does not heal for that much<ul><li>A SK can use his deathsave only while grouped, it will heal him to full hp.</li></ul></li><li>A Paladin can put out very good dps<ul><li>A Sk can put out very good dps</li></ul></li><li>A Paladin gets stonewall<ul><li>A Sk gets shadowknights furor which is a longer duration better version of stonewall</li></ul></li></ol>I could go on and on, comparing Apples to Apples. In the end they both have their strengths and weaknesses (when compared to eachother), but when compared to other classes they only seem to have strengths.

EQ2Player

06-01-2010, 11:46 AM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote>.There is no single thing that makes the SK overpowered it is the potent combination of abilities that does.</blockquote>...IMO it needs to be survivability while pumping out high DPS/aggro. If you put out DPS like a Mage or Scout then you should take DMG like one. The highest DPS fighter should be the hardest to heal and keep up. Thats currently not the case.........especially at the heroic and low tier raid level.The few times I play my Guard.........with is crap gear.......even in somwhat trivial instances the moment I put on all my DPS gear and duel wield the healer knows it........Most healers out there cannot tell the difference if a SK is being "defensive" or "offensive".</blockquote>I've activated some old games recently such as DAOC due to frustrations with EQ2, which include among other things class balance issues and PVP. No other PVP game I've ever played has had such an OP class as the SK and Paladin. Anyone seriously playing these classes and defending their DPS/Survivability simply enjoys dominating without much of a challenge. I have one of each, and play other classes...They're too easy.But, I think it boils down to what the guy posted above. The SK is like a souped-up mega-wizard in full plate and Heals.This is a head-shaker... Lousy OP classes just run subsribers off. Most folks appreciate balance and the SK waters down other classes role in the game.

Bruener

06-01-2010, 05:47 PM

<cite>EQ2Player wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote>.There is no single thing that makes the SK overpowered it is the potent combination of abilities that does.</blockquote>...IMO it needs to be survivability while pumping out high DPS/aggro. If you put out DPS like a Mage or Scout then you should take DMG like one. The highest DPS fighter should be the hardest to heal and keep up. Thats currently not the case.........especially at the heroic and low tier raid level.The few times I play my Guard.........with is crap gear.......even in somwhat trivial instances the moment I put on all my DPS gear and duel wield the healer knows it........Most healers out there cannot tell the difference if a SK is being "defensive" or "offensive".</blockquote>I've activated some old games recently such as DAOC due to frustrations with EQ2, which include among other things class balance issues and PVP. No other PVP game I've ever played has had such an OP class as the SK and Paladin. Anyone seriously playing these classes and defending their DPS/Survivability simply enjoys dominating without much of a challenge. I have one of each, and play other classes...They're too easy.But, I think it boils down to what the guy posted above. The SK is like a souped-up mega-wizard in full plate and Heals.This is a head-shaker... Lousy OP classes just run subsribers off. Most folks appreciate balance and the SK waters down other classes role in the game.</blockquote>EQ2 was not made to be a PvP game and the majority of the subscribers could care less about it. Balancing against PvP causes way more trouble than its worth in PvE.

Maamadex

06-01-2010, 06:37 PM

Yeah, I honestly have to say if you want to play a good pvp game with oodles of balance this isn't the one for you heh. Pvp was added as an afterthought and never will be perfect. SKs and Paladins are, I suppose, overpowered. Almost every issue that made us suck pre-TSO (and make no mistake we did suck in many departments, sk in particular) were addressed and addressed conclusively. Maybe too much, but it was needed and I won't deny it made my chosen class incredibly fun. One could only hope the same could happen for other classes.

Phelon_Skellhound

06-01-2010, 07:50 PM

Every class will have their 15min of fame... the devs I hope have an idea on where to focus their attention as far as fighters are concerned.. the only thing that people are QQing about is when... Soon(TM)? Next GU? Next expansion? *shrug*

Bruener

06-01-2010, 07:52 PM

<cite>Khatiru@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Every class will have their 15min of fame... the devs I hope have an idea on where to focus their attention as far as fighters are concerned.. the only thing that people are QQing about is when... Soon(TM)? Next GU? Next expansion? *shrug*</blockquote>Don't worry I am sure Brawlers and Zerkers are going to have their day real soon....if they aren't already, although none will admit it.

Xanrn

06-02-2010, 09:08 AM

No Brawler will admit what exactly? That Sk are broken and the Brawler has been ignored for another expansion?That our utility is crap and oudated?That our dps edge over Plate Fighters has disappeared completely? But low and behold we are still wearing leather.That our Aggro output is half of a SK on single targets?That yet again we got shafted on AAs?That the Monk mythical buff is the worst mythical buff coming from the worst mythical?Oh wow I can use mitigation items to increase my mitigation to bad plate levels, but wait my dps is now half of plate tanks and my threat has taken a big hit too...

BChizzle

06-02-2010, 09:29 AM

<cite>Ummudien@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>No Brawler will admit what exactly? That Sk are broken and the Brawler has been ignored for another expansion?That our utility is crap and oudated?That our dps edge over Plate Fighters has disappeared completely? But low and behold we are still wearing leather.That our Aggro output is half of a SK on single targets?That yet again we got shafted on AAs?That the Monk mythical buff is the worst mythical buff coming from the worst mythical?Oh wow I can use mitigation items to increase my mitigation to bad plate levels, but wait my dps is now half of plate tanks and my threat has taken a big hit too...</blockquote>Clearly he's talking about group FD and how OP it makes monks.

Soul_Dreamer

06-02-2010, 12:12 PM

I'm a MT Guardian, the setup of our groups with tanks in is below (for the majority of fights, not hard mode).MT - Guardian, Defiler, Temp, Dirge, Coercer, Swashy.OT1 - Paladin, Inquisitor, Mystic, Illusionist, Dirge, Ranger/Bigand/Assassin (depending who's online)OT2 - SK, Inquisitor, Wizard, Troub, Illusionist, NecroTo come close to the hate my OT's (SK and Paladin) can sustain I need to be in Off stance, A decent amount of DPS gear and duel welding, giving up all of my uncontested avoidance and this is while I have 2 transfers and hate buffs. Crusaders have no where near the amount of trade off that Warriors, especially Guardians do between Hate and Survivability. Which means the argument of Guardians having so much more survivability is moot, since we can't take advantage of it and hold agro well at the same time.Saying this, the only problems I ever have with agro are the OT's and it often doesn't cause an issue. I don't care that I can't solo as well as Crusaders, and I don't care I'm not as good a choice at instance tanking as Crusaders are, it's not what my class was designed for. IMO the Guardian class was defined for tanking 1 hard hitting mob and is meant to struggle in both solo and AOE content. The Crusader OT's in my guild don't out DPS the DPS classes unless the DPS classes are AFK or dead so I'm happy where they are in relation to them. I don't think many changes need to be made to Crusaders, especially not drastic changes, I do think Crusader hate generation, combined with DPS and Survivability makes them OP compared to other tank classes though and the AA line which increases Weapon damage while wearing a shield needs to be changed to while using a 2 hander.For my own class, what I think needs to happen is Guardians need some more TPS added via direct hate adjustments. Hate added to some CA's and "Hold the Line" adjusting so it procs hate on avoidances as well as hits, just small tweaks to Guardian hate, not sweeping changes, to bring their Hate up to the level of Crusaders.Yes tanks need to specialise to give them a purpose but tanks also need to be balanced with DPS/Survivability/Utility. Hate shouldn't be something you should have to sacrifice and should be relativly equal among the tanks within their specialisation, all tanks need to perform the role of basic tanking and the differences should be in DPS/Survivability/Utility.As a Guardian I sacrifice DPS and Utiltiy for survivability.As SK's you sacrifice Survivability for DPS and Utility.We both however should be able to generate hate relatively equally in order to perfom the basic role of tanking.

Wasuna

06-02-2010, 12:28 PM

A Crusader can do Max DPS with a shield on. How is that sacraficing survivability for dps?

Soul_Dreamer

06-02-2010, 12:32 PM

I don't think many changes need to be made to Crusaders, especially not drastic changes, I do think Crusader hate generation, combined with DPS and Survivability makes them OP compared to other tank classes though and the AA line which increases Weapon damage while wearing a shield needs to be changed to while using a 2 hander.Gives all the 2 handers a use and means they can't do max DPS with a shield.

Wasuna

06-04-2010, 11:14 AM

SK's should have to make a DPS (Agro) vs Survivability choice like all other fighters other than Paladins. This is currently not the case which is why people say they want the Knights Stance to be made w/o shield. While I agree something needs to be done, I do not agree that it should be allowing SK's to become a T1 DPS class when they choose to go MAX DPS with a 2 hander. This would just make Assassins ans Wizards hate SK's also.SK's have to much already and giving them then ability to do even more DPS when they wish to will just make things worse. They do not have positional requirements for their attacks. They do not have stealth requirements for attacks. They don't have any limitations on attacks other than being in spell/combat range and they would quickly become a high teir dps class that can switch gear and be the best tank with very high dps also.Not Acceptable.

Bruener

06-04-2010, 01:00 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>SK's should have to make a DPS (Agro) vs Survivability choice like all other fighters other than Paladins. This is currently not the case which is why people say they want the Knights Stance to be made w/o shield. While I agree something needs to be done, I do not agree that it should be allowing SK's to become a T1 DPS class when they choose to go MAX DPS with a 2 hander. This would just make Assassins ans Wizards hate SK's also.SK's have to much already and giving them then ability to do even more DPS when they wish to will just make things worse. They do not have positional requirements for their attacks. They do not have stealth requirements for attacks. They don't have any limitations on attacks other than being in spell/combat range and they would quickly become a high teir dps class that can switch gear and be the best tank with very high dps also.Not Acceptable.</blockquote>Your problem is that you completely over-exaggerate the situation, and you also fail to recognize the position of other fighter classes.First the DPS argument. SKs come no where close to T1 DPS classes. I am a top parsing SK and our T1 DPS classes blow me away. I sit with the Bruiser that is going offensive and am out parsed by good rogues (in case people forgot rogues are supposed to be T2 DPS).Second the argument of other fighters not being able to do the same thing. Paladins parse just as high as SKs, you can see this easily by checking out the high parses of Paladins on flames and comparing it to SKs. And the real obvious contender that is completely ignored are Zerkers. Having the Adrenaline ability allows Zerks to DW, or 2h, almost all content and take the same damage as the other Plate tanks. With a 2h + 100% AE, or DW'ing and having 20% higher crit bonus Zerks are parsing just as high as the Crusaders. TAKING 50% LESS DAMAGE MEANS THEY DON'T NEED A SHIELD. Talking to Zerks that are friends its simple to Adrenaline for 32 sec every minute and than the other remaining 28 seconds just cycling their other survival tools like Frenzy. Zerks are sitting so well that I have specifically started rolling a Zerk to max level because unlike SKs they are scarce and don't have to take a "nerf" beating for their position in TSO.What people aren't recognizing is that 3 tanks are working the way they should all the time and are extremely enjoyable for people to play while the other 3 are not. Brawlers shouldn't have their uncontested tied to a stance and Guards should self-generate more ST and AE agro.The fact that you are playing a class that isn't enjoyable means you should be pushing for changes to make it more enjoyable instead of trying to nerf classes that are fun to play. I would hardly call doing T2 DPS as an offensive tank OP'd.

MaCloud1032

06-04-2010, 01:05 PM

The best way to bring down crusaders mainly SK's is simple. Nerf our casting time. Take our casting times back to what they were pre tso. I can remember a time when I was interupted on every other spell. Right now I can cast my evac faster on my SK then on my assassin

Wasuna

06-04-2010, 01:54 PM

Breuner,I might be a vocal person on the current inbalance between the fighters but that in no way even begins to imply that I'm exaggerating. It's an understood point. Most people don't post or check posts becasue it's been around so long it's fact. Just becasue you want to protect your SK doesn't mean what you want to believe is truth. The same could be said for me since I want my Guardian to be just as fun but there have been so many threads and so much information that my stance is pretty clear. I'm not going to work to prove it to you personally in every single thread you descide to post in.I fully understand that Paladins are just as good as SK's. But, for some reason the servers aren't flooded with paladins. That doesn't change the balance issues but it sure does impact who argues what and so far it's been 99% SK's that don't want any changes. It took you months to even acknowledge that Guardians need some help. The numbers never changed a single time but you just didn't want to accept it. Understandable in terms of human nature but not acceptable.As for Bezerkers, maybe that's looking into a crystal ball showing that Guardians will recieve something.In the end, Guardians should be one of two things:1. Equal to all other fighters in terms of DPS, Agro and Survivabiliy.2. The hands down only choice as the MT for all optiomal situations. (We aren't now at all. Just becasue your raid uses a Guardian MT doesn't mean your even in the majority.)I actually was one of those people that picked my class to be a MT. This was back in EQ2 Beta and the first day of release. Then we were the unquestioned MT choice. That got adjusted becasue SoE promised all fighters would be able to tank equally. Since that day there has always been a Cluster F with the fighters. Through that whole period I have asked and asked for balance. It has gone up, down, left, right but never balanced and go so bad that the latest expansion was actually sub-named by the game population to a fighter flass; The Shadowknight Oddsey.Like I have said dozens of times, buff Guardians or smack SK's. I'll offer the defination that SK's = all fighters that are currently considered to be equal to what the game developes want the fighters to be.

RafaelSmith

06-04-2010, 02:05 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>SK's should have to make a DPS (Agro) vs Survivability choice like all other fighters other than Paladins. This is currently not the case which is why people say they want the Knights Stance to be made w/o shield. While I agree something needs to be done, I do not agree that it should be allowing SK's to become a T1 DPS class when they choose to go MAX DPS with a 2 hander. This would just make Assassins ans Wizards hate SK's also.SK's have to much already and giving them then ability to do even more DPS when they wish to will just make things worse. They do not have positional requirements for their attacks. They do not have stealth requirements for attacks. They don't have any limitations on attacks other than being in spell/combat range and they would quickly become a high teir dps class that can switch gear and be the best tank with very high dps also.Not Acceptable.</blockquote>Your problem is that you completely over-exaggerate the situation, and you also fail to recognize the position of other fighter classes.First the DPS argument. SKs come no where close to T1 DPS classes. I am a top parsing SK and our T1 DPS classes blow me away. I sit with the Bruiser that is going offensive and am out parsed by good rogues (in case people forgot rogues are supposed to be T2 DPS).Second the argument of other fighters not being able to do the same thing. Paladins parse just as high as SKs, you can see this easily by checking out the high parses of Paladins on flames and comparing it to SKs. And the real obvious contender that is completely ignored are Zerkers. Having the Adrenaline ability allows Zerks to DW, or 2h, almost all content and take the same damage as the other Plate tanks. With a 2h + 100% AE, or DW'ing and having 20% higher crit bonus Zerks are parsing just as high as the Crusaders. TAKING 50% LESS DAMAGE MEANS THEY DON'T NEED A SHIELD. Talking to Zerks that are friends its simple to Adrenaline for 32 sec every minute and than the other remaining 28 seconds just cycling their other survival tools like Frenzy. Zerks are sitting so well that I have specifically started rolling a Zerk to max level because unlike SKs they are scarce and don't have to take a "nerf" beating for their position in TSO.What people aren't recognizing is that 3 tanks are working the way they should all the time and are extremely enjoyable for people to play while the other 3 are not. Brawlers shouldn't have their uncontested tied to a stance and Guards should self-generate more ST and AE agro.The fact that you are playing a class that isn't enjoyable means you should be pushing for changes to make it more enjoyable instead of trying to nerf classes that are fun to play. I would hardly call doing T2 DPS as an offensive tank OP'd.</blockquote>And you sir are severely downplaying the situation..........understandably because you like just how pretty SKs are sitting atm so you naturally downplay the power of the class and underestimate the issues/disadvantages a class like Guard has.I would be the first to admit that those of us that were not already geared out or had a grandfathered raid slot on our Guards do over-exaggerate things. You live in a perfect "world" where the best gear and all the required buffs/support are taken for granted..........while some of us don't so we see the situation from entirely different view points. Take a freshly minted SK and Guard........slap them in Legendary/"Token" armor and you see just how much more capable and powerful the SK is by comparison irregardless of player.As with most things........I am sure the truth of the situation is somehwere in the middle and will take some slight buffs and slight nerfs to really balance things out.

Bruener

06-04-2010, 02:30 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Breuner,I might be a vocal person on the current inbalance between the fighters but that in no way even begins to imply that I'm exaggerating. It's an understood point. Most people don't post or check posts becasue it's been around so long it's fact. Just becasue you want to protect your SK doesn't mean what you want to believe is truth. The same could be said for me since I want my Guardian to be just as fun but there have been so many threads and so much information that my stance is pretty clear. I'm not going to work to prove it to you personally in every single thread you descide to post in.I fully understand that Paladins are just as good as SK's. But, for some reason the servers aren't flooded with paladins. That doesn't change the balance issues but it sure does impact who argues what and so far it's been 99% SK's that don't want any changes. It took you months to even acknowledge that Guardians need some help. The numbers never changed a single time but you just didn't want to accept it. Understandable in terms of human nature but not acceptable. It did not take me months to acknowledge that Guards need some help. I had ideas in BETA to help Guards specifically for Heroic content which is really where the problem is. The Recapture idea I had in another thread is an idea I was posting in Beta along with some additional AE hate control...just not quite as much as the AE tanks. I am not sure why there aren't quite as many SKs out there right now...probably because Paladins weren't left in the dust for so long like SKs were. Or it could be the simple fact of an evil knight is way cooler sounding than the classic Paladin which is exactly why I picked mine at launch. I mean it is one of the most played character throughout RPG history.As for Bezerkers, maybe that's looking into a crystal ball showing that Guardians will recieve something.In the end, Guardians should be one of two things:1. Equal to all other fighters in terms of DPS, Agro and Survivabiliy. As others had said equal Agro I can see. There is no such thing as equal survivability because what is good for survivability on STs isn't good on AEs and vice versa. Guards with stoneskins have fantastic ST survivability but those fall short in AE situations. Vice versa having one ability that ripostes for a very short duration is great in AE but lacking in ST.2. The hands down only choice as the MT for all optiomal situations. (We aren't now at all. Just becasue your raid uses a Guardian MT doesn't mean your even in the majority.) With a simple boost to agro generation there would be no reason to use any other class besides a Guard for MT. Other classes could be used but Guards would definitely be the best choice. I mean I was thinking about a couple nights ago on the triple mob in the 1st wing of the hole and our Guards entire group went down and he was able to stay alive for nearly a minute while somebody went over to rez his group. No other tank could do that.I actually was one of those people that picked my class to be a MT. This was back in EQ2 Beta and the first day of release. Then we were the unquestioned MT choice. That got adjusted becasue SoE promised all fighters would be able to tank equally. Since that day there has always been a Cluster F with the fighters. Through that whole period I have asked and asked for balance. It has gone up, down, left, right but never balanced and go so bad that the latest expansion was actually sub-named by the game population to a fighter flass; The Shadowknight Oddsey. I have always though that Guards should be the MT of choice. And as I said above there is only a couple of tweaks that need to happen to definitely ensure that. Unfortunately though there is the heroic game-play to consider as well. An ability like the Recapture change I talked about with a lil more AE agro generation would smooth things out completely.Like I have said dozens of times, buff Guardians or smack SK's. I'll offer the defination that SK's = all fighters that are currently considered to be equal to what the game developes want the fighters to be.Here is where you completely get off page. You admit earlier you recognize Paladins are just as good (better in a lot of situations if you actually play with a good one) and have its already been pointed out why Zerks are in the same exact boat. And yet even with those on the table its a buff Guards or nerf SKs argument. Shouldn't it be a buff Guards or nerf SKs, Paladins, and Zerks argument instead. And than shouldn't it really be a buff Guards or nerf all other fighters argument since all of them have enough survivability to MT? Sounds pretty ridiculous and really what it should be is just "buff" Guards.</blockquote>Fighter balance is light years ahead of where it was when we had to deal with the crap that was RoK. Couple minor changes in a couple areas which hopefully are coming next xpac since that is really where they make up ground thru AAs should alleviate a ton of the frustration.

Wasuna

06-04-2010, 03:07 PM

B.... S....To use your classification; if SK's, Paladins and Bezerkers can tank just as well as Guardians, provide a great deal more dps and have equal threat generation. Then why would ANYBODY have a Guardian tanking their group/raid? You notice I'm not even mentioning lifetaps and such because that BLOWS EVERYBODY else away in the heroic game. That is how it is now, except we can't even come close to matching agro.If you want to use Tower of Stone (I'm not mentionong Guardian Sphere, 1 AoE and I go splat faster than you can .. well do anything) as a reason why Guardians are so much better than everybody else then I gues that once again, I'll have to point out divine aura, spell avoidance, 2-3 triggers of Bloodletter (that is always up, I'll add). Even the raid MT's say that Guardians MAYBE have 1% more survivability when facing a big bad raid mob.I just don't get how you think your even beginning to maintain an intelligent conservation. Do you really just think everybody else is stupid? Maybe you had better stop that becasue your fellow SK's aren't supporting you now either.Try again and once again, try to get it straight.

CHIMPNOODLE.

06-04-2010, 03:15 PM

I find Bruenors accessment pretty accurate for most situations actually. My raid force often runs with less than optimal setups, and I can't really say that I notice much difference between the tanks when we do some switchups (usually Guard for SK, a newer Zerk in the mix now too) and/or split tanking.None of them seem to have much issue with aggro (at our gear/DPS levels anyway) or surviving, and none of them are out-DPSing similarly geared T1 DPSers. The SKs are parsing higher than the guard DPS-wise, and outparsing the Zerk at the moment as well...*but*, the Zerk is also new addition and just got his first 2 upgrades last raid. He was already nipping at the heels of our SKs DPS-wise. Looks like he will be nearly on par or possibly even stronger DPS-wise in no-time. When the guard is tanking, he's usually hanging in with less than optimal group support and his aggro control is strong enough (for us anyway)."[some slight buffs and slight nerfs to really balance things out]" *at most* seems closest to the current plate tank balancing needs imo....heavier on the buff side for the brawlers though imo (either tankage or DPS ones, whichever way they get pushed or pulled).

Wasuna

06-04-2010, 03:32 PM

Posted like a good SK. A few tweeks will not make my Guardian as well rounded and fun to play as your SK. Just becasue you want to try and limit every other fighters buffing to an equal state to maintain your position doesn't make it even close to right. Breuner keeps brining up all the other classes that he feels are encroching on his place and telling the world to focus on them not SK's. Just becasue you don't like the answer doesn't mean it's not going to get answered.Agro and threat in a raid is moot. If you don't have enough you adjust the groups to make it OK. The MT group ALWAYS has top priotity. Like said many times in many different places. The fighters become More and More balanced the higher up on the raid food chain you go. That in No way makes it balanced for the rest of the 95% of the itme we are in the game.You can keep making points that have already been beaten to a pulp in different threads but that doesn't make the informations or responses any different.

CHIMPNOODLE.

06-04-2010, 04:32 PM

More like posted like an SK, Inquisitor, Dirge, Necro, Illy, Defiler, soloer, grouper, raider, guild and raid leader <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> lol...and ditto <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />If its the 95% of non-highest end content that's the most concerning (which I'd say is where I am at minimum for 90%+ of each expansion hehe), then imo its more a discussion about zone and population design. Build em for AE oriented tanks and they will excel, build em for single target top-dammage taking tanks and they will excel. Build em too in-between-ish or too weak/easy and the specialists don't have enough to excel at and the more versatile will shine earlier and longer.

Bruener

06-04-2010, 06:17 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Posted like a good SK. A few tweeks will not make my Guardian as well rounded and fun to play as your SK. Just becasue you want to try and limit every other fighters buffing to an equal state to maintain your position doesn't make it even close to right. Breuner keeps brining up all the other classes that he feels are encroching on his place and telling the world to focus on them not SK's. Just becasue you don't like the answer doesn't mean it's not going to get answered.Agro and threat in a raid is moot. If you don't have enough you adjust the groups to make it OK. The MT group ALWAYS has top priotity. Like said many times in many different places. The fighters become More and More balanced the higher up on the raid food chain you go. That in No way makes it balanced for the rest of the 95% of the itme we are in the game.You can keep making points that have already been beaten to a pulp in different threads but that doesn't make the informations or responses any different.</blockquote>So what exactly do you want for your Guard? If you want a SK roll a SK. If you want your Guard to be more enjoyable in teh type of content you are playing start putting up some ideas to get there while sticking within what is the class.Most importantly stop simply pointing at JUST SKs when doing comparisons when Paladins and Zerkers are doing the same exact thing, and are doing things even better in a lot of situations.You and the other 4-5 people that keep posting complaining about SKs just can't seem to come up with anything good to help yourselves out. Instead it is take the easy road of bashing other classes in the hopes of somehow that is going to make a difference. Here is a thought for you....if SOE "nerfed" SKs to not being fun like Guards is that going to make you have more fun playing your class?

Macross_JR

06-04-2010, 06:25 PM

<cite>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:</cite><blockquote>More like posted like an SK, Inquisitor, Dirge, Necro, Illy, Defiler, soloer, grouper, raider, guild and raid leader <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> lol...and ditto <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />If its the 95% of non-highest end content that's the most concerning (which I'd say is where I am at minimum for 90%+ of each expansion hehe), then imo its more a discussion about zone and population design. Build em for AE oriented tanks and they will excel, build em for single target top-dammage taking tanks and they will excel. Build em too in-between-ish or too weak/easy and the specialists don't have enough to excel at and the more versatile will shine earlier and longer.</blockquote>The problem is that the ae'ing classes don't have to worry about survivability. Why? Because they have just as good as survivability as that 1 tank that was made to take on the one big hitting bad guy. Why is that? It's because all those classes couldn't get past the fact that they killed faster then the other guy and that that was the reason why he could take hits better. It was because he killed slower he needed the better survivability. The other's killed faster so didn't need the survivability. So then it came down to raiding. Those other tanks wanted the ability to also keep their dps and be able to MT Raids. That's when stuff started to go in the wrong direction, as those other tanks started creeping up in survivability yet the other tank wasn't given anything for this encrouchment. So now this one class is not even asking for more dps but more hate gain(for the most part that is what most guardians are really looking for) and the other classes don't want that because then the class will be able to hold agro like them, but in a different way. Not with DPS which is how those other tanks do it(I'm talking plate tanks sorry brawlers I don't even think of you guys that much, nothing against you guys) but with non-DPS ways as to maintain some kind of balance.

Bruener

06-04-2010, 06:31 PM

<cite>Githil@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:</cite><blockquote>More like posted like an SK, Inquisitor, Dirge, Necro, Illy, Defiler, soloer, grouper, raider, guild and raid leader <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> lol...and ditto <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />If its the 95% of non-highest end content that's the most concerning (which I'd say is where I am at minimum for 90%+ of each expansion hehe), then imo its more a discussion about zone and population design. Build em for AE oriented tanks and they will excel, build em for single target top-dammage taking tanks and they will excel. Build em too in-between-ish or too weak/easy and the specialists don't have enough to excel at and the more versatile will shine earlier and longer.</blockquote>The problem is that the ae'ing classes don't have to worry about survivability. Why? Because they have just as good as survivability as that 1 tank that was made to take on the one big hitting bad guy. Why is that? It's because all those classes couldn't get past the fact that they killed faster then the other guy and that that was the reason why he could take hits better. It was because he killed slower he needed the better survivability. The other's killed faster so didn't need the survivability. So then it came down to raiding. Those other tanks wanted the ability to also keep their dps and be able to MT Raids. That's when stuff started to go in the wrong direction, as those other tanks started creeping up in survivability yet the other tank wasn't given anything for this encrouchment. So now this one class is not even asking for more dps but more hate gain(for the most part that is what most guardians are really looking for) and the other classes don't want that because then the class will be able to hold agro like them, but in a different way. Not with DPS which is how those other tanks do it(I'm talking plate tanks sorry brawlers I don't even think of you guys that much, nothing against you guys) but with non-DPS ways as to maintain some kind of balance.</blockquote>There is no way that I can take nearly as much damage as our Guard. Its constantly shown in the parses the amount of damage from mobs I take compared to what he takes.And maybe Guards are looking for hate gain, but the ones posting on these forums definitely aren't looking for just hate gain. Other fighters could care less if Guards are given the hate gain. I mean any fighter can easily produce enough hate to hold off of any DPS class.This is not TSO. A Guard can go tank any instance and hold agro easily off of everybody except....other fighters.Give em more hate gain. I guarantee though that the vocal ones on these boards will not be happy until their Guard is turned into a SK. They just plain rolled the wrong class, probably in RoK when they heard how the most defensive tank was also putting out more DPS than the others at the high end.

Macross_JR

06-04-2010, 09:25 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Githil@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:</cite><blockquote>More like posted like an SK, Inquisitor, Dirge, Necro, Illy, Defiler, soloer, grouper, raider, guild and raid leader <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> lol...and ditto <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />If its the 95% of non-highest end content that's the most concerning (which I'd say is where I am at minimum for 90%+ of each expansion hehe), then imo its more a discussion about zone and population design. Build em for AE oriented tanks and they will excel, build em for single target top-dammage taking tanks and they will excel. Build em too in-between-ish or too weak/easy and the specialists don't have enough to excel at and the more versatile will shine earlier and longer.</blockquote>The problem is that the ae'ing classes don't have to worry about survivability. Why? Because they have just as good as survivability as that 1 tank that was made to take on the one big hitting bad guy. Why is that? It's because all those classes couldn't get past the fact that they killed faster then the other guy and that that was the reason why he could take hits better. It was because he killed slower he needed the better survivability. The other's killed faster so didn't need the survivability. So then it came down to raiding. Those other tanks wanted the ability to also keep their dps and be able to MT Raids. That's when stuff started to go in the wrong direction, as those other tanks started creeping up in survivability yet the other tank wasn't given anything for this encrouchment. So now this one class is not even asking for more dps but more hate gain(for the most part that is what most guardians are really looking for) and the other classes don't want that because then the class will be able to hold agro like them, but in a different way. Not with DPS which is how those other tanks do it(I'm talking plate tanks sorry brawlers I don't even think of you guys that much, nothing against you guys) but with non-DPS ways as to maintain some kind of balance.</blockquote>There is no way that I can take nearly as much damage as our Guard. Its constantly shown in the parses the amount of damage from mobs I take compared to what he takes.And maybe Guards are looking for hate gain, but the ones posting on these forums definitely aren't looking for just hate gain. Other fighters could care less if Guards are given the hate gain. I mean any fighter can easily produce enough hate to hold off of any DPS class.This is not TSO. A Guard can go tank any instance and hold agro easily off of everybody except....other fighters.Give em more hate gain. I guarantee though that the vocal ones on these boards will not be happy until their Guard is turned into a SK. They just plain rolled the wrong class, probably in RoK when they heard how the most defensive tank was also putting out more DPS than the others at the high end.</blockquote>And what about now when the most offensive tanks have the same survivability as the supposed defensive tank? That is not ballanced.

Bruener

06-04-2010, 09:52 PM

<cite>Githil@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Githil@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:</cite><blockquote>More like posted like an SK, Inquisitor, Dirge, Necro, Illy, Defiler, soloer, grouper, raider, guild and raid leader <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> lol...and ditto <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />If its the 95% of non-highest end content that's the most concerning (which I'd say is where I am at minimum for 90%+ of each expansion hehe), then imo its more a discussion about zone and population design. Build em for AE oriented tanks and they will excel, build em for single target top-dammage taking tanks and they will excel. Build em too in-between-ish or too weak/easy and the specialists don't have enough to excel at and the more versatile will shine earlier and longer.</blockquote>The problem is that the ae'ing classes don't have to worry about survivability. Why? Because they have just as good as survivability as that 1 tank that was made to take on the one big hitting bad guy. Why is that? It's because all those classes couldn't get past the fact that they killed faster then the other guy and that that was the reason why he could take hits better. It was because he killed slower he needed the better survivability. The other's killed faster so didn't need the survivability. So then it came down to raiding. Those other tanks wanted the ability to also keep their dps and be able to MT Raids. That's when stuff started to go in the wrong direction, as those other tanks started creeping up in survivability yet the other tank wasn't given anything for this encrouchment. So now this one class is not even asking for more dps but more hate gain(for the most part that is what most guardians are really looking for) and the other classes don't want that because then the class will be able to hold agro like them, but in a different way. Not with DPS which is how those other tanks do it(I'm talking plate tanks sorry brawlers I don't even think of you guys that much, nothing against you guys) but with non-DPS ways as to maintain some kind of balance.</blockquote>There is no way that I can take nearly as much damage as our Guard. Its constantly shown in the parses the amount of damage from mobs I take compared to what he takes.And maybe Guards are looking for hate gain, but the ones posting on these forums definitely aren't looking for just hate gain. Other fighters could care less if Guards are given the hate gain. I mean any fighter can easily produce enough hate to hold off of any DPS class.This is not TSO. A Guard can go tank any instance and hold agro easily off of everybody except....other fighters.Give em more hate gain. I guarantee though that the vocal ones on these boards will not be happy until their Guard is turned into a SK. They just plain rolled the wrong class, probably in RoK when they heard how the most defensive tank was also putting out more DPS than the others at the high end.</blockquote>And what about now when the most offensive tanks have the same survivability as the supposed defensive tank? That is not ballanced.</blockquote>You say that like its true. SKs have nowhere near the survivability that Guards do. The problem isn't the lack of survivability in Guards in relation to other tanks...the problem is in the lack of need of that survivability in a lot of the content. Lets face it heroic zones, raid trash, and easy raid mobs are complete push-overs that a rogue could tank. Even the few Hard Mode encounters aren't crushing tanks.Certain mobs should be hitting so hard that it takes a ceriously defensive spec'd Guard with 3 healers to tank. Right now all mobs can be tanked by semi-defensive geared any tank with 2 good healers at the raid level.At the heroic level its like most of the time a tank can be completely offensive and not even need a healer, or the healer is over there DPS'ing for the most part tossing in a couple heals.They need heroic zones like Maidens in RoK where you wanted to take a Guard with a couple healers to get the zone done unless you had a tank that was geared up already. They need some raid encounters where unless a tank is geared passed the content they weren't gonna quite cut it and it takes over-healing with a Guard to tank.OR, they give Guards equal agro generation and a little more defensive utility for those around him to make it more enjoyable to play the class. Guard still locks the MT spot than because lets face it the pattern of this games progress has shown that the majority of players, especially DPS, don't want to have to worry about agro. Tie some more threat on a Guards CAs, give them a good true AE hate grabber on a decent recast, and boost their current taunts a little now (or give them a slight boost in taunt crit bonus) and it is a completely different ball game.Oh and while your at it get rid of the stupid fighter stances and the penalties associated with them getting rid of the forced mechanic of some fighters having to make a huge choice between survivability and DPS (Brawlers).

Shorcon

06-05-2010, 07:00 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Posted like a good SK. A few tweeks will not make my Guardian as well rounded and fun to play as your SK. Just becasue you want to try and limit every other fighters buffing to an equal state to maintain your position doesn't make it even close to right. Breuner keeps brining up all the other classes that he feels are encroching on his place and telling the world to focus on them not SK's. Just becasue you don't like the answer doesn't mean it's not going to get answered.Agro and threat in a raid is moot. If you don't have enough you adjust the groups to make it OK. The MT group ALWAYS has top priotity. Like said many times in many different places. The fighters become More and More balanced the higher up on the raid food chain you go. That in No way makes it balanced for the rest of the 95% of the itme we are in the game.You can keep making points that have already been beaten to a pulp in different threads but that doesn't make the informations or responses any different.</blockquote>So what exactly do you want for your Guard? If you want a SK roll a SK. If you want your Guard to be more enjoyable in teh type of content you are playing start putting up some ideas to get there while sticking within what is the class.Most importantly stop simply pointing at JUST SKs when doing comparisons when Paladins and Zerkers are doing the same exact thing, and are doing things even better in a lot of situations.You and the other 4-5 people that keep posting complaining about SKs just can't seem to come up with anything good to help yourselves out. Instead it is take the easy road of bashing other classes in the hopes of somehow that is going to make a difference. Here is a thought for you....if SOE "nerfed" SKs to not being fun like Guards is that going to make you have more fun playing your class?</blockquote>I know what I want for my guardian. I want surv/aggro over dps/heal. I want the guardian back and the gaurdian zerk to be back as the pure tanks. I could give 2 <a href="mailto:$%@^'s">$%@^'s</a> less about dps. I'm a gaurd. Have been since pre DoF. I always stuck with the gaurdian for one purpose. To hold agro and survive the hit. Anything changed?

Shorcon

06-05-2010, 07:10 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Githil@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Githil@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:</cite><blockquote>More like posted like an SK, Inquisitor, Dirge, Necro, Illy, Defiler, soloer, grouper, raider, guild and raid leader <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> lol...and ditto <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />If its the 95% of non-highest end content that's the most concerning (which I'd say is where I am at minimum for 90%+ of each expansion hehe), then imo its more a discussion about zone and population design. Build em for AE oriented tanks and they will excel, build em for single target top-dammage taking tanks and they will excel. Build em too in-between-ish or too weak/easy and the specialists don't have enough to excel at and the more versatile will shine earlier and longer.</blockquote>The problem is that the ae'ing classes don't have to worry about survivability. Why? Because they have just as good as survivability as that 1 tank that was made to take on the one big hitting bad guy. Why is that? It's because all those classes couldn't get past the fact that they killed faster then the other guy and that that was the reason why he could take hits better. It was because he killed slower he needed the better survivability. The other's killed faster so didn't need the survivability. So then it came down to raiding. Those other tanks wanted the ability to also keep their dps and be able to MT Raids. That's when stuff started to go in the wrong direction, as those other tanks started creeping up in survivability yet the other tank wasn't given anything for this encrouchment. So now this one class is not even asking for more dps but more hate gain(for the most part that is what most guardians are really looking for) and the other classes don't want that because then the class will be able to hold agro like them, but in a different way. Not with DPS which is how those other tanks do it(I'm talking plate tanks sorry brawlers I don't even think of you guys that much, nothing against you guys) but with non-DPS ways as to maintain some kind of balance.</blockquote>There is no way that I can take nearly as much damage as our Guard. Its constantly shown in the parses the amount of damage from mobs I take compared to what he takes.And maybe Guards are looking for hate gain, but the ones posting on these forums definitely aren't looking for just hate gain. Other fighters could care less if Guards are given the hate gain. I mean any fighter can easily produce enough hate to hold off of any DPS class.This is not TSO. A Guard can go tank any instance and hold agro easily off of everybody except....other fighters.Give em more hate gain. I guarantee though that the vocal ones on these boards will not be happy until their Guard is turned into a SK. They just plain rolled the wrong class, probably in RoK when they heard how the most defensive tank was also putting out more DPS than the others at the high end.</blockquote>And what about now when the most offensive tanks have the same survivability as the supposed defensive tank? That is not ballanced.</blockquote>You say that like its true. SKs have nowhere near the survivability that Guards do. The problem isn't the lack of survivability in Guards in relation to other tanks...the problem is in the lack of need of that survivability in a lot of the content. Lets face it heroic zones, raid trash, and easy raid mobs are complete push-overs that a rogue could tank. Even the few Hard Mode encounters aren't crushing tanks.Certain mobs should be hitting so hard that it takes a ceriously defensive spec'd Guard with 3 healers to tank. Right now all mobs can be tanked by semi-defensive geared any tank with 2 good healers at the raid level.At the heroic level its like most of the time a tank can be completely offensive and not even need a healer, or the healer is over there DPS'ing for the most part tossing in a couple heals.They need heroic zones like Maidens in RoK where you wanted to take a Guard with a couple healers to get the zone done unless you had a tank that was geared up already. They need some raid encounters where unless a tank is geared passed the content they weren't gonna quite cut it and it takes over-healing with a Guard to tank.OR, they give Guards equal agro generation and a little more defensive utility for those around him to make it more enjoyable to play the class. Guard still locks the MT spot than because lets face it the pattern of this games progress has shown that the majority of players, especially DPS, don't want to have to worry about agro. Tie some more threat on a Guards CAs, give them a good true AE hate grabber on a decent recast, and boost their current taunts a little now (or give them a slight boost in taunt crit bonus) and it is a completely different ball game.Oh and while your at it get rid of the stupid fighter stances and the penalties associated with them getting rid of the forced mechanic of some fighters having to make a huge choice between survivability and DPS (Brawlers).</blockquote>I am begining to see how noob this forum has become. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0a4d7238daa496a758252d0a2b1a1384.gif" border="0" />

Bruener

06-05-2010, 08:05 PM

<cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Posted like a good SK. A few tweeks will not make my Guardian as well rounded and fun to play as your SK. Just becasue you want to try and limit every other fighters buffing to an equal state to maintain your position doesn't make it even close to right. Breuner keeps brining up all the other classes that he feels are encroching on his place and telling the world to focus on them not SK's. Just becasue you don't like the answer doesn't mean it's not going to get answered.Agro and threat in a raid is moot. If you don't have enough you adjust the groups to make it OK. The MT group ALWAYS has top priotity. Like said many times in many different places. The fighters become More and More balanced the higher up on the raid food chain you go. That in No way makes it balanced for the rest of the 95% of the itme we are in the game.You can keep making points that have already been beaten to a pulp in different threads but that doesn't make the informations or responses any different.</blockquote>So what exactly do you want for your Guard? If you want a SK roll a SK. If you want your Guard to be more enjoyable in teh type of content you are playing start putting up some ideas to get there while sticking within what is the class.Most importantly stop simply pointing at JUST SKs when doing comparisons when Paladins and Zerkers are doing the same exact thing, and are doing things even better in a lot of situations.You and the other 4-5 people that keep posting complaining about SKs just can't seem to come up with anything good to help yourselves out. Instead it is take the easy road of bashing other classes in the hopes of somehow that is going to make a difference. Here is a thought for you....if SOE "nerfed" SKs to not being fun like Guards is that going to make you have more fun playing your class?</blockquote>I know what I want for my guardian. I want surv/aggro over dps/heal. I want the guardian back and the gaurdian zerk to be back as the pure tanks. I could give 2 <a href="mailto:$%@^'s">$%@^'s</a> less about dps. I'm a gaurd. Have been since pre DoF. I always stuck with the gaurdian for one purpose. To hold agro and survive the hit. Anything changed?</blockquote>No such thing as pure tanks. That is a made up concept by a few to try and shelve fighters below others.

Shorcon

06-05-2010, 08:33 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Posted like a good SK. A few tweeks will not make my Guardian as well rounded and fun to play as your SK. Just becasue you want to try and limit every other fighters buffing to an equal state to maintain your position doesn't make it even close to right. Breuner keeps brining up all the other classes that he feels are encroching on his place and telling the world to focus on them not SK's. Just becasue you don't like the answer doesn't mean it's not going to get answered.Agro and threat in a raid is moot. If you don't have enough you adjust the groups to make it OK. The MT group ALWAYS has top priotity. Like said many times in many different places. The fighters become More and More balanced the higher up on the raid food chain you go. That in No way makes it balanced for the rest of the 95% of the itme we are in the game.You can keep making points that have already been beaten to a pulp in different threads but that doesn't make the informations or responses any different.</blockquote>So what exactly do you want for your Guard? If you want a SK roll a SK. If you want your Guard to be more enjoyable in teh type of content you are playing start putting up some ideas to get there while sticking within what is the class.Most importantly stop simply pointing at JUST SKs when doing comparisons when Paladins and Zerkers are doing the same exact thing, and are doing things even better in a lot of situations.You and the other 4-5 people that keep posting complaining about SKs just can't seem to come up with anything good to help yourselves out. Instead it is take the easy road of bashing other classes in the hopes of somehow that is going to make a difference. Here is a thought for you....if SOE "nerfed" SKs to not being fun like Guards is that going to make you have more fun playing your class?</blockquote>I know what I want for my guardian. I want surv/aggro over dps/heal. I want the guardian back and the gaurdian zerk to be back as the pure tanks. I could give 2 <a href="mailto:$%@^'s">$%@^'s</a> less about dps. I'm a gaurd. Have been since pre DoF. I always stuck with the gaurdian for one purpose. To hold agro and survive the hit. Anything changed?</blockquote>No such thing as pure tanks. That is a made up concept by a few to try and shelve fighters below others.</blockquote>Yeah and I guess there is no such thing as hybrid or dps tanks right? Gettin noober and noober. The word "Noober" is TM. of Sevantal -The Bazaar. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Landiin

06-06-2010, 01:39 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Posted like a good SK. A few tweeks will not make my Guardian as well rounded and fun to play as your SK. Just becasue you want to try and limit every other fighters buffing to an equal state to maintain your position doesn't make it even close to right. Breuner keeps brining up all the other classes that he feels are encroching on his place and telling the world to focus on them not SK's. Just becasue you don't like the answer doesn't mean it's not going to get answered.Agro and threat in a raid is moot. If you don't have enough you adjust the groups to make it OK. The MT group ALWAYS has top priotity. Like said many times in many different places. The fighters become More and More balanced the higher up on the raid food chain you go. That in No way makes it balanced for the rest of the 95% of the itme we are in the game.You can keep making points that have already been beaten to a pulp in different threads but that doesn't make the informations or responses any different.</blockquote>So what exactly do you want for your Guard? If you want a SK roll a SK. If you want your Guard to be more enjoyable in teh type of content you are playing start putting up some ideas to get there while sticking within what is the class.Most importantly stop simply pointing at JUST SKs when doing comparisons when Paladins and Zerkers are doing the same exact thing, and are doing things even better in a lot of situations.You and the other 4-5 people that keep posting complaining about SKs just can't seem to come up with anything good to help yourselves out. Instead it is take the easy road of bashing other classes in the hopes of somehow that is going to make a difference. Here is a thought for you....if SOE "nerfed" SKs to not being fun like Guards is that going to make you have more fun playing your class?</blockquote>I know what I want for my guardian. I want surv/aggro over dps/heal. I want the guardian back and the gaurdian zerk to be back as the pure tanks. I could give 2 <a href="mailto:$%@^'s">$%@^'s</a> less about dps. I'm a gaurd. Have been since pre DoF. I always stuck with the gaurdian for one purpose. To hold agro and survive the hit. Anything changed?</blockquote>No such thing as pure tanks. That is a made up concept by a few to try and shelve fighters below others.</blockquote>ROFL what? Please explain you logic here. I have a feeling this is gonna be good, even for you.

Prestissimo

06-06-2010, 08:50 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>No such thing as pure tanks. That is a made up concept by a few to try and shelve fighters below others.</blockquote>This coming from someone that plays a hybrid tank class that in addition to being a hybrid was until TSO not even worth a half of a summoner. I am so going to enjoy this one.

Bruener

06-06-2010, 04:24 PM

<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Posted like a good SK. A few tweeks will not make my Guardian as well rounded and fun to play as your SK. Just becasue you want to try and limit every other fighters buffing to an equal state to maintain your position doesn't make it even close to right. Breuner keeps brining up all the other classes that he feels are encroching on his place and telling the world to focus on them not SK's. Just becasue you don't like the answer doesn't mean it's not going to get answered.Agro and threat in a raid is moot. If you don't have enough you adjust the groups to make it OK. The MT group ALWAYS has top priotity. Like said many times in many different places. The fighters become More and More balanced the higher up on the raid food chain you go. That in No way makes it balanced for the rest of the 95% of the itme we are in the game.You can keep making points that have already been beaten to a pulp in different threads but that doesn't make the informations or responses any different.</blockquote>So what exactly do you want for your Guard? If you want a SK roll a SK. If you want your Guard to be more enjoyable in teh type of content you are playing start putting up some ideas to get there while sticking within what is the class.Most importantly stop simply pointing at JUST SKs when doing comparisons when Paladins and Zerkers are doing the same exact thing, and are doing things even better in a lot of situations.You and the other 4-5 people that keep posting complaining about SKs just can't seem to come up with anything good to help yourselves out. Instead it is take the easy road of bashing other classes in the hopes of somehow that is going to make a difference. Here is a thought for you....if SOE "nerfed" SKs to not being fun like Guards is that going to make you have more fun playing your class?</blockquote>I know what I want for my guardian. I want surv/aggro over dps/heal. I want the guardian back and the gaurdian zerk to be back as the pure tanks. I could give 2 <a href="mailto:$%@^'s">$%@^'s</a> less about dps. I'm a gaurd. Have been since pre DoF. I always stuck with the gaurdian for one purpose. To hold agro and survive the hit. Anything changed?</blockquote>No such thing as pure tanks. That is a made up concept by a few to try and shelve fighters below others.</blockquote>ROFL what? Please explain you logic here. I have a feeling this is gonna be good, even for you.</blockquote>Do you want me to use simple words so you can actually understand?The word Hybrid means that a character uses both spells/melee to do the same thing that other classes do that use just melee or just spells. The opposite of Hybrid became the phrase Pure which means they use either Pure melee or Pure spells to do their job.The way some morons seems to define Hybrid is that they are half tank. That makes no sense at all because we all know that a half tank is a useless tank.The huge problem with the "hybrid" label originally is that it forced tanks that used spells to have to follow the same characteristics of spell which failed while tanking. We are talking about long cast timers and being unable to move while casting. Also, the spells of those tanks even though the spells had limitation were given the same damage of CAs which did not have the limitations. Finally the biggest problem that SOE was having with the people that used both spells/CAs is the itemization. Before consolidation (i know it wasn't that long ago but some of you just seem to have such short memories) an item would be designed for tanking but because of point values missed additional stats that would have been required to make it equal for both since SOE shelved themselves into giving the traits of spell casters to the ones that cast spells (using int, spell crit, spell mod, etc). It was a huge problem up until TSO and can be seen in how crappy the gear was at that time. TSO came and they definitely recognized the problem and the real fixes came in having to basically put double the stats on the same items to get the same net results. Wow, along comes consolidation to reduce the problem entirely.So to recap for those of little intellect....Hybrid = classes that use both spells and melee.Pure = classes that use either just spells or just melee.The wrong definitions that people that really just don't understand how this game works is....Hybrid = half one class and half another. (Example dual classing in other games).Pure = single class.As you can see EQ2 has always followed the format of the first definition and has never followed the format of the second wrong definition.

Landiin

06-06-2010, 05:02 PM

Not was a sad attempt man, you can do better common!

Macross_JR

06-06-2010, 05:27 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Posted like a good SK. A few tweeks will not make my Guardian as well rounded and fun to play as your SK. Just becasue you want to try and limit every other fighters buffing to an equal state to maintain your position doesn't make it even close to right. Breuner keeps brining up all the other classes that he feels are encroching on his place and telling the world to focus on them not SK's. Just becasue you don't like the answer doesn't mean it's not going to get answered.Agro and threat in a raid is moot. If you don't have enough you adjust the groups to make it OK. The MT group ALWAYS has top priotity. Like said many times in many different places. The fighters become More and More balanced the higher up on the raid food chain you go. That in No way makes it balanced for the rest of the 95% of the itme we are in the game.You can keep making points that have already been beaten to a pulp in different threads but that doesn't make the informations or responses any different.</blockquote>So what exactly do you want for your Guard? If you want a SK roll a SK. If you want your Guard to be more enjoyable in teh type of content you are playing start putting up some ideas to get there while sticking within what is the class.Most importantly stop simply pointing at JUST SKs when doing comparisons when Paladins and Zerkers are doing the same exact thing, and are doing things even better in a lot of situations.You and the other 4-5 people that keep posting complaining about SKs just can't seem to come up with anything good to help yourselves out. Instead it is take the easy road of bashing other classes in the hopes of somehow that is going to make a difference. Here is a thought for you....if SOE "nerfed" SKs to not being fun like Guards is that going to make you have more fun playing your class?</blockquote>I know what I want for my guardian. I want surv/aggro over dps/heal. I want the guardian back and the gaurdian zerk to be back as the pure tanks. I could give 2 <a href="mailto:$%@^'s">$%@^'s</a> less about dps. I'm a gaurd. Have been since pre DoF. I always stuck with the gaurdian for one purpose. To hold agro and survive the hit. Anything changed?</blockquote>No such thing as pure tanks. That is a made up concept by a few to try and shelve fighters below others.</blockquote>ROFL what? Please explain you logic here. I have a feeling this is gonna be good, even for you.</blockquote>Do you want me to use simple words so you can actually understand?The word Hybrid means that a character uses both spells/melee to do the same thing that other classes do that use just melee or just spells. The opposite of Hybrid became the phrase Pure which means they use either Pure melee or Pure spells to do their job.The way some morons seems to define Hybrid is that they are half tank. That makes no sense at all because we all know that a half tank is a useless tank.The huge problem with the "hybrid" label originally is that it forced tanks that used spells to have to follow the same characteristics of spell which failed while tanking. We are talking about long cast timers and being unable to move while casting. Also, the spells of those tanks even though the spells had limitation were given the same damage of CAs which did not have the limitations. Finally the biggest problem that SOE was having with the people that used both spells/CAs is the itemization. Before consolidation (i know it wasn't that long ago but some of you just seem to have such short memories) an item would be designed for tanking but because of point values missed additional stats that would have been required to make it equal for both since SOE shelved themselves into giving the traits of spell casters to the ones that cast spells (using int, spell crit, spell mod, etc). It was a huge problem up until TSO and can be seen in how crappy the gear was at that time. TSO came and they definitely recognized the problem and the real fixes came in having to basically put double the stats on the same items to get the same net results. Wow, along comes consolidation to reduce the problem entirely.So to recap for those of little intellect....Hybrid = classes that use both spells and melee.Pure = classes that use either just spells or just melee.The wrong definitions that people that really just don't understand how this game works is....Hybrid = half one class and half another. (Example dual classing in other games).Pure = single class.As you can see EQ2 has always followed the format of the first definition and has never followed the format of the second wrong definition.</blockquote>Bruener way to use your own defination of what you think Hybrid and Pure classes are. Hmm...Paladin...uses CA's and Spells...also uses Heals...oh wait...half a tank half a healer now....hmmm....Sk..uses CA's and Spells....also uses life taps....oh wait, necro's use life taps as well.....Seems crusaders are Hybrid tanks, using your "new" defination and the old definition. Crusaders are the only fighters that have abilities that can not be cast while moving...oh my like healers and casters. Why is it Crusaders still have an AA tree that increases "Spell Damage" based on a stat. And I highly doubt your Spells hit for as little as CA's...which is why they had longer cast times/recast times. Oh, but we can't mention that now can we.

Bruener

06-06-2010, 07:05 PM

<cite>Githil@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do you want me to use simple words so you can actually understand?The word Hybrid means that a character uses both spells/melee to do the same thing that other classes do that use just melee or just spells. The opposite of Hybrid became the phrase Pure which means they use either Pure melee or Pure spells to do their job.The way some morons seems to define Hybrid is that they are half tank. That makes no sense at all because we all know that a half tank is a useless tank.The huge problem with the "hybrid" label originally is that it forced tanks that used spells to have to follow the same characteristics of spell which failed while tanking. We are talking about long cast timers and being unable to move while casting. Also, the spells of those tanks even though the spells had limitation were given the same damage of CAs which did not have the limitations. Finally the biggest problem that SOE was having with the people that used both spells/CAs is the itemization. Before consolidation (i know it wasn't that long ago but some of you just seem to have such short memories) an item would be designed for tanking but because of point values missed additional stats that would have been required to make it equal for both since SOE shelved themselves into giving the traits of spell casters to the ones that cast spells (using int, spell crit, spell mod, etc). It was a huge problem up until TSO and can be seen in how crappy the gear was at that time. TSO came and they definitely recognized the problem and the real fixes came in having to basically put double the stats on the same items to get the same net results. Wow, along comes consolidation to reduce the problem entirely.So to recap for those of little intellect....Hybrid = classes that use both spells and melee.Pure = classes that use either just spells or just melee.The wrong definitions that people that really just don't understand how this game works is....Hybrid = half one class and half another. (Example dual classing in other games).Pure = single class.As you can see EQ2 has always followed the format of the first definition and has never followed the format of the second wrong definition.</blockquote>Bruener way to use your own defination of what you think Hybrid and Pure classes are. Hmm...Paladin...uses CA's and Spells...also uses Heals...oh wait...half a tank half a healer now....hmmm....Sk..uses CA's and Spells....also uses life taps....oh wait, necro's use life taps as well.....Seems crusaders are Hybrid tanks, using your "new" defination and the old definition. Crusaders are the only fighters that have abilities that can not be cast while moving...oh my like healers and casters. Why is it Crusaders still have an AA tree that increases "Spell Damage" based on a stat. And I highly doubt your Spells hit for as little as CA's...which is why they had longer cast times/recast times. Oh, but we can't mention that now can we.</blockquote>Do you guys just post without even reading. First of all about the spell damage thing....that was the way it was that was changed with the SK revamp because it was long over-due. It was what they recognized was the whole problem. Lets see here though.....Hhhmmm Healers have damage spells they must be half mages huh? Wait Predators have some abilities classified as spells...they must be half mages too huh? Than of course there are bards that must be half mages because they have spells. And wait here is a good one taunts are classified as spells so Warriors must be half mages as well. And since Bezerkers have healing capabilities they obviously are half healer. Oh Warriors and Brawlers can DW so they must be half scout. Meanwhile all mages can melee so they must be half scout too.Lifetaps are a type of ability. Just like Spells are a type of ability, CAs are a type of ability, and Heals are a type of an ability. Lots of classes use multiple types of abilities to do their role.EQ2 specifically had all classes start from Fighter, Priest, Mage, Scout. Your stupid definition of "hybrid" and "pure" have never fit into this game.To even suggest that there is a "pure" class for tanking means you literally put that class on a pedastal to be the tank of choice while every other class gets the shaft since they can not perform the role they were designed for to the same capacity. EDIT: Oh and last time I checked Heals are spells.

Landiin

06-07-2010, 01:52 AM

Quit failing man you have come up with better in the past. Take a little more time to collect your thoughts before posting I know and I believe you can do better then your last two attempts. But I need you to clear one thing up ok? Are you saying there is not hybrid or pure fighters or are you saying that all fighters are hybrid?

Shareana

06-07-2010, 08:54 AM

This is a discussion... there is no need to insult or belittle people for their thoughts on the subject.

Wasuna

06-07-2010, 12:14 PM

There isno discussion. There is only argument. That's why I specifically refuse to offer idead on how to balance the classes. the Developers are suppose to do that and what people come up is ALWAYS biased towards their own class.Shareana, can you please ask the Develoeprs to get on this problem becasue it's been around for only about 6 years now. The promises and expetations given to the player base during EQ2 Beta started the problem and the attemept to balance the fighters to meet these promises is the problem.

Nakash

06-07-2010, 12:43 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Shareana, can you please ask the Develoeprs to get on this problem becasue it's been around for only about 6 years now. The promises and expetations given to the player base during EQ2 Beta started the problem and the attemept to balance the fighters to meet these promises is the problem.</blockquote>Nerf cry to the mod. Nice try.Arguments in these thread are gone long ago.Same people always bashing the same oppinions over and over again.I dont see a way finding a way to get along here.Ends up in holding to my oppinion and thinking some of the other oppinions are going nuts, they may think vice visa.I can life with that. But reading the same s... over and over again is not worth my time.So from my position have fun posting youre nonsense nerf cryers, i will spend my time otherwise.Last thing i will throw in the fire:Wanna nerf ? ok. Remove Knight Stance from the crusaders at all. At the same time make "ALL" 1h 6.0+ delay weapons only useable to crusaders more like before... cause it was their Epic weapon feature for being able to autoattack and casting spells. While we are at it Add in 2H Crusaders only cause others can Dual Wield.

AziBam

06-07-2010, 12:57 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>There isno discussion. There is only argument. That's why I specifically refuse to offer idead on how to balance the classes. the Developers are suppose to do that and what people come up is ALWAYS biased towards their own class.</blockquote>I could easily be wrong (wouldn't be the first time) but wasn't Bruener the first to suggest group moderate? How did that benefit SKs? Even if he didn't suggest it I'm quite certain I recall a thread in the guard boards where that suggestion came from a player. I think it's fair to say that in many cases, the end user actually knows the product better than the dev team. In fact, I think that is inevitable. That being the case, why is it bad for us to try to give input for changes, big or small, that can make our playtime more enjoyable? Too many people do nothing but complain without offering up suggestions for what would make it better. <cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Shareana, can you please ask the Develoeprs to get on this problem becasue it's been around for only about 6 years now. The promises and expetations given to the player base during EQ2 Beta started the problem and the attemept to balance the fighters to meet these promises is the problem.</blockquote>Unfortunately, th bolded part is terribly accurate. This last beta was just amazing to see fighters volleying attacks at each other. It was constant and unceasing until the beta ended. I haven't been in the prior ones but my understanding is that they are all like that. Yes, there is some healer, scout and mage squabbling too but nothing I saw was even close to the bile fighters spew.<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite> <blockquote>Hybrid = classes that use both spells and melee.Pure = classes that use either just spells or just melee.The wrong definitions that people that really just don't understand how this game works is....Hybrid = half one class and half another. (Example dual classing in other games).Pure = single class.As you can see EQ2 has always followed the format of the first definition and has never followed the format of the second wrong definition.</blockquote>Seems both clear and accurate to me.<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not was a sad attempt man, you can do better common!</blockquote>(derail) I swear there is a cadre of guards, a couple brawlers, and at least one paladin that seems to just have Bruener flagged so that any post he makes they jump in with a polar-opposite reaction. Seemingly, just because they don't like him. Rarely do I see that same cadre offering alternatives. They just take his post(s) and respond with "That's stupid, you're stupid, you just like being OP, and we are terribly [Removed for Content] so you should be nerfed."

Bruener

06-07-2010, 01:52 PM

<cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>There isno discussion. There is only argument. That's why I specifically refuse to offer idead on how to balance the classes. the Developers are suppose to do that and what people come up is ALWAYS biased towards their own class.</blockquote>I could easily be wrong (wouldn't be the first time) but wasn't Bruener the first to suggest group moderate? How did that benefit SKs? Even if he didn't suggest it I'm quite certain I recall a thread in the guard boards where that suggestion came from a player. I think it's fair to say that in many cases, the end user actually knows the product better than the dev team. In fact, I think that is inevitable. That being the case, why is it bad for us to try to give input for changes, big or small, that can make our playtime more enjoyable? Too many people do nothing but complain without offering up suggestions for what would make it better.Actually yes I did post about a group moderate a ton last xpac.<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Shareana, can you please ask the Develoeprs to get on this problem becasue it's been around for only about 6 years now. The promises and expetations given to the player base during EQ2 Beta started the problem and the attemept to balance the fighters to meet these promises is the problem.</blockquote>Unfortunately, th bolded part is terribly accurate. This last beta was just amazing to see fighters volleying attacks at each other. It was constant and unceasing until the beta ended. I haven't been in the prior ones but my understanding is that they are all like that. Yes, there is some healer, scout and mage squabbling too but nothing I saw was even close to the bile fighters spew.It is sad actually, and I am sorry to admit I got caught up in it a little last beta myself. The problem is there is just so few slots for fighters and everybody is scrapping for everything they can get to ensure that spot. Until SOE can actually address the issue of needing so few fighters it will always be like this.<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hybrid = classes that use both spells and melee.Pure = classes that use either just spells or just melee.The wrong definitions that people that really just don't understand how this game works is....Hybrid = half one class and half another. (Example dual classing in other games).Pure = single class.As you can see EQ2 has always followed the format of the first definition and has never followed the format of the second wrong definition.</blockquote>Seems both clear and accurate to me. Simple too.<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not was a sad attempt man, you can do better common!</blockquote>(derail) I swear there is a cadre of guards, a couple brawlers, and at least one paladin that seems to just have Bruener flagged so that any post he makes they jump in with a polar-opposite reaction. Seemingly, just because they don't like him. Rarely do I see that same cadre offering alternatives. They just take his post(s) and respond with "That's stupid, you're stupid, you just like being OP, and we are terribly [Removed for Content] so you should be nerfed." I LOL'd when I saw this because it is exactly what a few people on these forums do. I can post suggestions to help other classes, start threads to gather ideas, come up with actual original ideas that make sense from a class stand point and a few people that can't seem to come up with anything useful themselves specifically direct attack me and anything I post. The main reason is probably because my arguments make some type of sense where as theirs are just "nuh uh, it just is" type of arguments.</blockquote>Whats sad is these people that seem to just love to post to argue anything I say are already derailing other threads as well forcing stupid arguments. I mean go look at the newest one coming up with ideas to balance things. Even though I put forth some great arguments, and have conceded to a lot of things others have said, a couple people just can't seem to post anything useful and instead target anything I say. I think they really secretely luv me.

Landiin

06-07-2010, 02:13 PM

Answer my question Bruener and quit dodging.

BChizzle

06-07-2010, 02:23 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>It is sad actually, and I am sorry to admit I got caught up in it a little last beta myself. The problem is there is just so few slots for fighters and everybody is scrapping for everything they can get to ensure that spot. Until SOE can actually address the issue of needing so few fighters it will always be like this.</blockquote></blockquote>Interestingly enough you were the cause of pretty much every fight with fighters on BETA. Your constant crying about how SK's weren't going to dominate this expansion because you didn't have the same crit bonus was classic. How did that work out for you? Seems SK's are still the top dogs though and despite you always being blatently wrong you will never admit it. Every fighter suggestion was met with you saying "QQ omg we didn't get crit bonus so you shouldn't get the buffs you need." In the end crusaders are still hugely OP but at least devs were smart enough not to listen to you then about crit bonus and my guess is they just laugh at anything you suggest now. I mean lets be honest your suggestion for fixing things is to give guardians an AE taunt (LAWL) and brawlers uncontested avoidance in their offensive stance (USELESS) which would change absolutely nothing.

Wasuna

06-07-2010, 02:38 PM

Group Moderate was posted about over 2 years ago in the Guardian forum. I have group moderate maxed and I can easily agro reduce anybody in my group to the cap with group and single target. And that person can still easily blow me away with agro if I don't have some high dps transfer. While there are VERY few times I don't have group moderate up, it in no way fixed the agro issue and patting Breuner on the back for it is way off base.Breuner dances all around. In the end he wants SK's to stay on top and posts in every single thread he can find to change/deflect/dodge and dilute every argument. In the end, every thread, even the one by what I believe was his raid MT Guardian discussing class DPS, was found to be off basis and not correct.Guardian have a VERY slight edge in ST survivability and a very much LESS AOE survivability.Guardians generate LESS Threat (TPS) than just about any other fighter class.Guardians do MUCH less DPS than SK's, by about 50-100% margin.Guardians have a MUCH less desired raid buff, even though fighter raids buffs aren't all the fantastic anyway so who really cares.So, tell why what Breuner posted that makes any kind fo sense?

Alazarz

06-07-2010, 08:11 PM

<cite>Azzaroth@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am tired of people who dont play there class to the limit and cry nerf on classes.A mod should close this. This is a nerf cry. Nothing more.</blockquote>crusaders Do need to be nerfed. I play my sk everday.. have been for the past two 1/2 years.. i can kill whole groups bymyself alot of the time, if not that i live until i run outta power.. and the only reason i EVER run outta power are scouts chewing my power Also as an shadowknight i can solo most all old tso (yes the new scaled up versions) and also some of the new SF 6 man zones.. Vasty deep Conservatory for example.. take a lil over 45 minutes.. and i usually walk out with a master or 2 if not more. sometimes even fabled jewlery.So yes we do need to be nerfed.. call it what u will.. call it crying or moaning it dosent matter.. 1 person shouldnt be able to solo zones.. especially new content... i often find myself with 20+ T9 masters accumulated in mu bags from soloing zones.. cant sellem fast enough..And.. your stating that you are tired of people who dont play their class to the limit and then crying nerf..IAM playing this sk to its limits.. sadly sometimes seems like there is no limit as an sk..TBH.. its always the scruby CRUSADERS getting on the defensive when ever someone tells them they are OP and /or needa be nerfed.. becasue they think their precious OPness will get stole away and their true skill will be shown if a nerf happens. You would actually have to "tank" things instead running in blindly and aggroing a whole room and popping Dm and then mabey grave sac followed by some blues..Bring Guardians back to life please.. NERF us crusaders a bit.. the good ones will still be good and the terrible ones wont be able to hide behind a god mode class..I <3 my sk dont get me wrong! He's a monster! And he is really fun to play,.. but then again i guess being nearly invincible couldnt be anything but?Crusaers need to be nerfed .. end of story

Landiin

06-07-2010, 08:48 PM

<cite>Alazarz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Azzaroth@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am tired of people who dont play there class to the limit and cry nerf on classes.A mod should close this. This is a nerf cry. Nothing more.</blockquote>crusaders Do need to be nerfed. I play my sk everday.. have been for the past two 1/2 years.. i can kill whole groups bymyself alot of the time, if not that i live until i run outta power.. and the only reason i EVER run outta power are scouts chewing my power Also as an shadowknight i can solo most all old tso (yes the new scaled up versions) and also some of the new SF 6 man zones.. Vasty deep Conservatory for example.. take a lil over 45 minutes.. and i usually walk out with a master or 2 if not more. sometimes even fabled jewlery.So yes we do need to be nerfed.. call it what u will.. call it crying or moaning it dosent matter.. 1 person shouldnt be able to solo zones.. especially new content... i often find myself with 20+ T9 masters accumulated in mu bags from soloing zones.. cant sellem fast enough..And.. your stating that you are tired of people who dont play their class to the limit and then crying nerf..IAM playing this sk to its limits.. sadly sometimes seems like there is no limit as an sk..TBH.. its always the scruby CRUSADERS getting on the defensive when ever someone tells them they are OP and /or needa be nerfed.. becasue they think their precious OPness will get stole away and their true skill will be shown if a nerf happens. You would actually have to "tank" things instead running in blindly and aggroing a whole room and popping Dm and then mabey grave sac followed by some blues..Bring Guardians back to life please.. NERF us crusaders a bit.. the good ones will still be good and the terrible ones wont be able to hide behind a god mode class..I <3 my sk dont get me wrong! He's a monster! And he is really fun to play,.. but then again i guess being nearly invincible couldnt be anything but?Crusaers need to be nerfed .. end of story</blockquote>You've done it now mr! Shame on you!

BChizzle

06-08-2010, 03:51 AM

Orthureon

06-08-2010, 01:56 PM

Bruener

06-08-2010, 01:56 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nerfs suck, balance doesn't mean a class has to be nerfed other classes can be buffed up to their level.</blockquote>I am so fricken confused now. Isn't this what I have been saying?

BChizzle

06-08-2010, 03:08 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nerfs suck, balance doesn't mean a class has to be nerfed other classes can be buffed up to their level.</blockquote>I am so fricken confused now. Isn't this what I have been saying?</blockquote>Partly but you are conveniently ignoring the 'other classes can be buffed up to their level' part. When you say other tanks shouldn't get certain things then you are leaving an SK nerf as the only alternative.I promise you 99% of guards/brawlers don't care if an SK out parses them. What they care about is that same SK grabbing agro with a sneeze. What they care about is that they have to make sacrifces SK's don't have to make. For the sake of balance in this game single target tanking needs to be buffed and AE tanks shouldn't be able to out single target agro a single target tank the same way a singe target tank doesn't even come close to out AE tanking an AE tank. Upping single target tanks DPS and taunts will tighten the DPS gap while also providing the agro that is missing. The outcome might be that your SK might get outparsed on a single target by a guard, monk, or bruiser but what really justifies that they shouldn't? As long as SK's are the best at everything that is not balance.There are 2 blatently obvious ways to fix this, buff agro/dps on ST tanks or nerf crusaders. Just because people say one of the options is a crusader nerf doesn't mean thats a good or bad idea it just means that would be one of the things that could fix the problems.I could probably go on forever on this, but really we should stay away from solutions that add more buttons to click, your idea of an ae taunt for guards is just another button and won't fix that guard losing agro from that equally geared SK 2 seconds later. Devs obviously saw this issue happening thats why they gave non crusaders more base crit bonus, however, that really wasn't enough and they didn't take it far enough, they should have also adjusted spells/ca/taunts too. The solution is staring everyone in the face, however, we also don't know what devs think, I mean do they think tanks do too much DPS so they will never buff ST tanks and instead nerf AE tanks, I personally think probably yes we probably do a bit too much dps compared to dps classes, but who knows what devs think maybe its something in the middle like a buff and nerf combination.

Bruener

06-08-2010, 07:34 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nerfs suck, balance doesn't mean a class has to be nerfed other classes can be buffed up to their level.</blockquote>I am so fricken confused now. Isn't this what I have been saying?</blockquote>Partly but you are conveniently ignoring the 'other classes can be buffed up to their level' part. When you say other tanks shouldn't get certain things then you are leaving an SK nerf as the only alternative.I promise you 99% of guards/brawlers don't care if an SK out parses them. What they care about is that same SK grabbing agro with a sneeze. What they care about is that they have to make sacrifces SK's don't have to make. For the sake of balance in this game single target tanking needs to be buffed and AE tanks shouldn't be able to out single target agro a single target tank the same way a singe target tank doesn't even come close to out AE tanking an AE tank. Upping single target tanks DPS and taunts will tighten the DPS gap while also providing the agro that is missing. The outcome might be that your SK might get outparsed on a single target by a guard, monk, or bruiser but what really justifies that they shouldn't? As long as SK's are the best at everything that is not balance.There are 2 blatently obvious ways to fix this, buff agro/dps on ST tanks or nerf crusaders. Just because people say one of the options is a crusader nerf doesn't mean thats a good or bad idea it just means that would be one of the things that could fix the problems.I could probably go on forever on this, but really we should stay away from solutions that add more buttons to click, your idea of an ae taunt for guards is just another button and won't fix that guard losing agro from that equally geared SK 2 seconds later. Devs obviously saw this issue happening thats why they gave non crusaders more base crit bonus, however, that really wasn't enough and they didn't take it far enough, they should have also adjusted spells/ca/taunts too. The solution is staring everyone in the face, however, we also don't know what devs think, I mean do they think tanks do too much DPS so they will never buff ST tanks and instead nerf AE tanks, I personally think probably yes we probably do a bit too much dps compared to dps classes, but who knows what devs think maybe its something in the middle like a buff and nerf combination.</blockquote>Much better having discussions than snap posts. Ok, your comment about me ignoring other tank classes is completely wrong imo. I have brought forth ideas to help things out (like bumps to Guards, etc.). I am not saying that my ideas are the best ideas for everything but at least I have been coming up with solutions. Meanwhile the people that consistently target SKs and call for nerfs are extremely annoying. The other thing I want people to seriously recognize is that it is not just SKs that are set up well. Paladins enjoy every luxury SKs do plus some. Zerkers are in fantastic shape as well.The problem I have with the AE v ST argument is exactly what I brought up before. The fact that the vast majority of raid content is still ST instead of AE. In fact there are very few true AE fights in the game (not counting little heroic adds mages can control lock). However, every single encounter has a ST. Not to mention that every fighter has both ST and AE capabilities and can be buffed with more (AE auto). If they are going to stick to a ST and AE layout than they need to make 50% of the content AE content that is only tankable by AE tanks and the other 50% ST only tankable by ST tanks.That being said yes I think that the other 3 tank classes need a big boost to agro specifically ST. As a SK I do not enjoy having to throttle my DPS to avoid turning a mob. A Guard or Brawler locked up on a ST should be able to hold it off of any other class...including the other fighters.As far as more button pushing the Recapture idea I talked about is already a button Guards have, and changing the stances to some kind of temp buffs instead doesn't mean they will be clicked regularly. Instead they could be burst type temp buffs with a decent duration and longer recast.

Macross_JR

06-08-2010, 08:06 PM

The problem with recapture, one that has been in place since it was even thought of, was it was made to help other tanks hold agro. It did absolutely nothing for guardians, and I would be hard pressed to find a guard that used it on a regular basis. Until SoE increases taunt amounts, or add taunt amounts(low at that) to ca's for guardians(notice I did not say DPS) there really isn't much to do but increase the damage on our ca's(which I do not want as increasing damage is a band aid fix).

arksun

06-09-2010, 09:33 AM

Anyone want to take over/under bets on new mechanics dev being hired to fix this huge flop? Everyone has to realize that Xelgad has not responded even in beta of SF, he is not going to respond now.

Wasuna

06-09-2010, 02:00 PM

Breuner,Your wrong. If you even have the choice of being able to stand in front of the mob and tank it then you should NEVER even come close to even aproaching the DPS that the classes that do not have that choice can do. Utility chooses to be helpful which they give up DPS for. Classes that ONLY offer DPS like Scouts and Sorceres (sp?) should be so far ahead of any tanks DPS ever that it's not even funny. Multiple time the number not just 50% higher.Just because you think SK's are well round and fun to play becasue you have more available choice, roles and abilities than anybody else in the game does NOT make that acceptable. The simple fact that you actually believe that is acceptable is why people focus on your comments.Crusaders, SK's in particular, are so overpowered that they are breaking the game.

Bruener

06-09-2010, 03:23 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Breuner,Your wrong. If you even have the choice of being able to stand in front of the mob and tank it then you should NEVER even come close to even aproaching the DPS that the classes that do not have that choice can do. Utility chooses to be helpful which they give up DPS for. Classes that ONLY offer DPS like Scouts and Sorceres (sp?) should be so far ahead of any tanks DPS ever that it's not even funny. Multiple time the number not just 50% higher.Just because you think SK's are well round and fun to play becasue you have more available choice, roles and abilities than anybody else in the game does NOT make that acceptable. The simple fact that you actually believe that is acceptable is why people focus on your comments.Crusaders, SK's in particular, are so overpowered that they are breaking the game.</blockquote>LoL.....you do realize all you have there is an OPINION right? Just because you think it, doesn't make it so at all. And in fact it is the exact opposite of the way the game is heading and how the masses feel.First you mention utility classes giving up DPS to have that utility. All tanking is is a utility. The ability to be able to tank is why Fighters don't do T1 DPS and instead should be doing T2 DPS all the time. To show how wrong you are somehow you lump scouts into the same category as if they are all DPS'ing classes. There are only 2 scouts designed to be straight DPS. The other 4 scouts bring a ton of utility, bards more so than Rogues. Its the reason that Rogues even though they bring fantastic utility they are just behind T1 on DPS while bards are at the lower end of the T2 DPS spectrum. Mages it is the same thing. You have only 2 classes that are true DPS classes, Sorcerors, than you have Summoners that are not working how they should which is why they aren't well represented (not a good match of DPS for the utility they bring), and you have Chanters that bring a ton of utility that are at the bottom of T2 DPS.All that tanking is is a form of utility. In most situations it is utility that is used very little except by one fighter in a raid.Now wrap you brain around this one. Rogues that bring great utility with debuffs do almost T1 DPS at the same time. Bards and Chanters that bring just tons and tons of utility that is constant use bring T2 DPS.So why is it so hard to understand that Fighters that bring good utility that is rarely used should be doing high T2 DPS....ALL THE TIME? Instead of bringing extra fighters because it is plain a detriment to the raids DPS and utility raids should want to bring more Fighters because they don't lower DPS that much and because they do provide situational utility that can be important. People settle for 3 fighters right now, but that is hardly fair when Bards alone or Chanters alone because of their utility+DPS soak almost 3x the amount of spots. Or because healers can over-heal to make up for survivability on the DPS'ers.

Wasuna

06-09-2010, 06:22 PM

Bards, Enchanters, Healers, Rogues, Scouts, Sorcers and Summoners...NONE OF THEM CAN DO THEIR JOB WITHOUT A TANKPrertty simple to me. They can't debuff, they can't dps, they can't heal (they can but it's a lost cause and more resing than healing), the can't sorce, the can't summon.. etc without a tank holding the mob.None of those classes can click a buff and maybe switch an item or two and amazingly become a tank. Why do you think it's OK for you to do that?

Phelon_Skellhound

06-09-2010, 07:31 PM

dunno their are a couple scout tanks that did pretty well...

Bruener

06-09-2010, 09:01 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bards, Enchanters, Healers, Rogues, Scouts, Sorcers and Summoners...NONE OF THEM CAN DO THEIR JOB WITHOUT A TANKPrertty simple to me. They can't debuff, they can't dps, they can't heal (they can but it's a lost cause and more resing than healing), the can't sorce, the can't summon.. etc without a tank holding the mob.None of those classes can click a buff and maybe switch an item or two and amazingly become a tank. Why do you think it's OK for you to do that?</blockquote>How far does a tank get without his support?

Prestissimo

06-10-2010, 03:34 AM

Pretty far. Seen alot of tanks (know of at least 5 of the top of my head and they aren't even raid MTs) solo zones that they should not be able to, and these are zones that a healer, scout, or mage would be very well respected if they could do it.

Fistantantilus

06-10-2010, 09:36 AM

lol that is funny coming from a warden pi have an sk and my friend has a warden. both just with fabled epic pneither has raid gear.he can solo nameds I cannot pwhen I asked how his reply was : well you see i have roots and infinite mana. i chain heal myself for no reason to get mana back and then root /nuke. i never run out of mana so i can keep it for ever pI dont want wardens to be nerfed (hell mine is finally 79.5 he will soon start his epic <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)Btw i have my toon since release day. I quit a bit before tso back when you could not get in raids because you were sk and sk masters were freaking cheap <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. In that silly questionaire that asks you why you quit i wrote in both my cancelled accounts, "because there is no place for sks in this game" :pGuardians crying for sk nerf are guardians who feel threatened by sks. back when they were the only mt choice with berserkers for ot it was fine huh ? you being overpowered covered your "suckyness level" per chance ? :pNerfing does not fix issues. if they nerf one class they dont fix yours. they simply make angry ppl who close accounts.keep walking ~

Wasuna

06-10-2010, 10:55 AM

I have played my Guardian since EQ2 beta. I asked for Guardian adjustments when we were to powerful and I ask for adjustments when others are to powerful. Coming to an argument late is a good way to make yourself look stupid.If you want to bring up total class balance then feel free. I won't participate in that since it's way to big of a job and I don't want anything to do with that.In the end, I want all of the classes I have to compete with to be balanced. Right now SK's are stupid over powered. I soloed the skeleton guy in the Hole for the Rat side daily mark quest. It took my death save and every buff, short term god ability I had available and I still almost died. I also have the two fabled 2000 HP ward wrist items. The last time I went down there a SK just beat me to the named. He pulled the named and the 3 groups of rats around it at the same time. He killed them all and never left the yellow and only got to the yellow once. I inspected his gear and he had T9 Legendary so I guess I had slightly better gear and I'm 100% mastered so he couldn't be any better than that.How does that compare to DPS, TPS and survivability?You can't reasonably argue the facts here. You can get upset that somebody is asking for either your favortie toy to be taken away or for SoE to give me one just as good as yours. That's the facts.

Bruener

06-10-2010, 11:22 AM

<cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Pretty far. Seen alot of tanks (know of at least 5 of the top of my head and they aren't even raid MTs) solo zones that they should not be able to, and these are zones that a healer, scout, or mage would be very well respected if they could do it.</blockquote>Oh so now we are going to talk about how well classes solo? Well I know healers and mages that can solo stuff no tank could touch. I also know scouts that can go tank zones for groups easily..... No tank needed there. Guess that whole argument is out the window.Wasuna when exactly did you start pushing for those Guard changes? I mean Guards just kept building and building all the way up thru RoK. Every single xpac they were given the best tools along with Zerkers to tank. The whole itemization and needing of additional stats screwed Crusaders a long long time. There is also a huge difference between Guards than and SKs now. Example, Guards in RoK had all the content designed for them, they had the best survivability, and they blew Crusaders out of the water for DPS. Now with SKs you have Paladins that are on the exact same level (plus some really) and you have Zerkers rocking just as good. It is not 1 class 3 steps ahead of everybody else and than Crusaders behind Zerker after that like it was in RoK. Instead it is 3 fighters where they should be the other 3 a step behind (something easily remedied with a bump in agro generation).

Wasuna

06-10-2010, 11:50 AM

Maybe your to young in the game. The biggiest single nerf to any fighter was the defense effect reduction back when the level cap was 50. Basically, the Guardian defense buff made them almost untouchable. The effect of defense skill on avoidance was changed to basically bring Guardians down from godhood. I supported that.As for Guardians getting good stuff. That was a slightly off kilter attempt to balance Guardians. SoE promised that all fighters would be able to tank unlike in EQ1. Then they made what was suppose to be the premier raid tank in the Guardian. Defensive in every way and their one and only job was to stand in front of mobs. Pure tank. Painful leveling, no DPS, nothing to do at all but stand in front of mobs. The defense adjustment stripped Guardians of their dominance in their ONE ROLE and the adjustments were an attempt to offset the pain of the Guardian.Basiclaly like Crusaders have been for the last 2 years, Guardins were adjusted to give them some kind of identity and it gave them more power in the one role that ticked off all the other fighters.As for your comparision to then and now, again your wrong. Guardians had all the NAMED content designed for them. The trash was paindful and adds are real problems. That wasn't changed, the Crusader class was changed. Now you do more DPS, more TPS and almost exactly the same survivability on the solo named and grouops aren't even funny to compare. It's just embarassing to look at the numbers at that point. Anybody that wasn't a 13 year old PvP ganker could look at those numbers and even begin to think things are OK.I want a class that is well rounded and fun to play. You yourself have said that DPS is fun and addictive and all your willing to offer Guardins is extra TPS? Your a hypocrite. You want SK's to stay on top and want to deflect any challenge to your position. In the end, all I want is extra TPS but I don't want easy mode either. SK's are super easy mode which is why I add the 'smack SK's' into my list of fixes. Easy mode kills the game for everybody. No more communication, no more strategy. Just run in and kill crap. I remmember having to direct people to stand in specific locations and do specific things or we couldn't clear a room in a zone. I remmember who threads and discussion on how to pull mobs such. Strategy! That's playing the game. This isn't an XBox. If it was an XBox I'd buy an XBox and not pay a monthly fee and save money.

Wurm

06-10-2010, 02:21 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>I remember having to direct people to stand in specific locations and do specific things or we couldn't clear a room in a zone. I remember who threads and discussion on how to pull mobs such. Strategy! That's playing the game.</blockquote>Oh I remember this as well... around 5 years ago. We now have AA and ridiculous gear that makes most of the older zones pull and smash regardless of class. So instead they are now adding lots of little loops to the harder zones that you have to jump through to finish.We all adapt to whats thrown at us, and nerf threads do nothing but bring pain and anger.Raise up all the classes to be viable and then adjust the content to become challenging, that's the way the game needs to go.The only problem is the EQ2 devs always go too far in whatever they do, instead of asking for nerfs we should instead keep asking that they finally use a scalpel instead of a sledgehammer.

Draylore

06-10-2010, 02:32 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Maybe your to young in the game. The biggiest single nerf to any fighter was the defense effect reduction back when the level cap was 50. Basically, the Guardian defense buff made them almost untouchable. The effect of defense skill on avoidance was changed to basically bring Guardians down from godhood. I supported that.As for Guardians getting good stuff. That was a slightly off kilter attempt to balance Guardians. SoE promised that all fighters would be able to tank unlike in EQ1. Then they made what was suppose to be the premier raid tank in the Guardian. Defensive in every way and their one and only job was to stand in front of mobs. Pure tank. Painful leveling, no DPS, nothing to do at all but stand in front of mobs. The defense adjustment stripped Guardians of their dominance in their ONE ROLE and the adjustments were an attempt to offset the pain of the Guardian.Basiclaly like Crusaders have been for the last 2 years, Guardins were adjusted to give them some kind of identity and it gave them more power in the one role that ticked off all the other fighters.As for your comparision to then and now, again your wrong. Guardians had all the NAMED content designed for them. The trash was paindful and adds are real problems. That wasn't changed, the Crusader class was changed. Now you do more DPS, more TPS and almost exactly the same survivability on the solo named and grouops aren't even funny to compare. It's just embarassing to look at the numbers at that point. Anybody that wasn't a 13 year old PvP ganker could look at those numbers and even begin to think things are OK.I want a class that is well rounded and fun to play. You yourself have said that DPS is fun and addictive and all your willing to offer Guardins is extra TPS? Your a hypocrite. You want SK's to stay on top and want to deflect any challenge to your position. In the end, all I want is extra TPS but I don't want easy mode either. SK's are super easy mode which is why I add the 'smack SK's' into my list of fixes. Easy mode kills the game for everybody. No more communication, no more strategy. Just run in and kill crap. I remmember having to direct people to stand in specific locations and do specific things or we couldn't clear a room in a zone. I remmember who threads and discussion on how to pull mobs such. Strategy! That's playing the game. This isn't an XBox. If it was an XBox I'd buy an XBox and not pay a monthly fee and save money.</blockquote>In general I agree with what you are saying. The game has become way too "easy". Old gauges of what makes identifies a good tank -vs- a bad tank such as pulling ,positioning, etc really have gone by the wayside because such things simply are not that important in most groups or content. But its not just tanking..its everything else. SOE has delivered what it appears the majority of MMO players today want. Fast and easy without much in the way of strat or teamwork. Its why giving a class like SK having so many eggs in the same basket is working....is fun and popular. The drawback is that classes like Guard sorta dont fit into the game anymore. The things that identify a Guard dont really matter anymore and more often than not just slow down, annoy and/or frustrate the rest of the group.I mean why make the effort to carefully pull mobs, position them properly or watch your DPS/aggro when you can just round them up whereever and burn them without any risk?Its really quite telling when I run my Assassin in pugs. The old time SKs are tanks........the other 75% of them are just idiots.......but the class has been given so much innate power than even the bad ones end up looking good when compared to even decent played Guards. You can take the worlds worse player as an SK and still get thru alot of the games content. You have to have a good Guard to accomplish the same.

Bruener

06-10-2010, 04:34 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Maybe your to young in the game. The biggiest single nerf to any fighter was the defense effect reduction back when the level cap was 50. Basically, the Guardian defense buff made them almost untouchable. The effect of defense skill on avoidance was changed to basically bring Guardians down from godhood. I supported that.As for Guardians getting good stuff. That was a slightly off kilter attempt to balance Guardians. SoE promised that all fighters would be able to tank unlike in EQ1. Then they made what was suppose to be the premier raid tank in the Guardian. Defensive in every way and their one and only job was to stand in front of mobs. Pure tank. Painful leveling, no DPS, nothing to do at all but stand in front of mobs. The defense adjustment stripped Guardians of their dominance in their ONE ROLE and the adjustments were an attempt to offset the pain of the Guardian.Basiclaly like Crusaders have been for the last 2 years, Guardins were adjusted to give them some kind of identity and it gave them more power in the one role that ticked off all the other fighters.As for your comparision to then and now, again your wrong. Guardians had all the NAMED content designed for them. The trash was paindful and adds are real problems. That wasn't changed, the Crusader class was changed. Now you do more DPS, more TPS and almost exactly the same survivability on the solo named and grouops aren't even funny to compare. It's just embarassing to look at the numbers at that point. Anybody that wasn't a 13 year old PvP ganker could look at those numbers and even begin to think things are OK.I want a class that is well rounded and fun to play. You yourself have said that DPS is fun and addictive and all your willing to offer Guardins is extra TPS? Your a hypocrite. You want SK's to stay on top and want to deflect any challenge to your position. In the end, all I want is extra TPS but I don't want easy mode either. SK's are super easy mode which is why I add the 'smack SK's' into my list of fixes. Easy mode kills the game for everybody. No more communication, no more strategy. Just run in and kill crap. I remmember having to direct people to stand in specific locations and do specific things or we couldn't clear a room in a zone. I remmember who threads and discussion on how to pull mobs such. Strategy! That's playing the game. This isn't an XBox. If it was an XBox I'd buy an XBox and not pay a monthly fee and save money.</blockquote>Maybe you should look at my character creation date...because you would know that I was there the entire time. I remember when Guards were invincible at launch. Basically they made raid mobs treat them like they were greyed out with their avoidance and would hardly get touched. Yes that was a broken mechanic and fixed....even after the fix Guards still rocked it out. I was also there when they changed my SK taunts to be ToT which were junk for holding hate. I was there when Crusaders were unable to use bows which stat-wise far exceeded any stupid symbols that SOE coudl come out with. I was there when they nerfed the ability to cast on the run which was a huge hit to Crusaders. I was there when I had to concentrate on STA, STR, AGI, INT while Warriors only had to worry about STR, STA, AGI...something all tank gear was designed around. I was there when my SK had to worry about melee crit and spell crit while Warriors only worried about melee crit...something tank gear was completely designed around. I was there when Crusaders had to worry about spell mod and CA mod while Warriors only worried about CA mod...something that all tank gear was designed around. I was there in KoS when Warriors got the Buckler line that allowed them to DA almost every hit while wearing a buckler, the same line that gave them a good amount of uncontested avoid. I remember in RoK being lucky to get 20% DA while Warriors still were maxed out all the time. I remember Guards and Zerkers completely dominating EoF. I remember Guards completely dominating RoK with an xpac completely designed for their play-style along with a mythical that gave them all the benefits of the best fighter line in the game with none of the detriments. Oddly enough the same time that the phrase you can't spell Suck without SK was commonly used. I remember KoS watching a great Zerk top the parse consistently being an offensive tank while the other offensive tank, SK, was parsing half as much.I have been playing this game steadily since launch and I have seen all the changes. Luckily I have finally seen changes come to a class that was way overdue for it and now that people actually enjoy playing the class the people that literally played an OP'd class from the start and was finally brought into line want to nerf what we have? I could care less how you feel about your class....I was there for way longer and put up with way worse. Stay away from my class and start making suggestions for your own.

BChizzle

06-10-2010, 05:07 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have been playing this game steadily since launch and I have seen all the changes. Luckily I have finally seen changes come to a class that was way overdue for it and now that people actually enjoy playing the class the people that literally played an OP'd class from the start and was finally brought into line want to nerf what we have? I could care less how you feel about your class....I was there for way longer and put up with way worse. Stay away from my class and start making suggestions for your own.</blockquote>This sums you up perfectly, you aren't interested in balance you are only interested in staying OP. Thanks for confirming what we already knew. It has been almost 2 years now, get over it.

Bruener

06-10-2010, 05:20 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have been playing this game steadily since launch and I have seen all the changes. Luckily I have finally seen changes come to a class that was way overdue for it and now that people actually enjoy playing the class the people that literally played an OP'd class from the start and was finally brought into line want to nerf what we have? I could care less how you feel about your class....I was there for way longer and put up with way worse. Stay away from my class and start making suggestions for your own.</blockquote>This sums you up perfectly, you aren't interested in balance you are only interested in staying OP. Thanks for confirming what we already knew. It has been almost 2 years now, get over it.</blockquote>Sums up what perfectly? The fact that people continually calling for a nerf to my class that is actually fun to play? Yes it does sum it up. I could care less for how he feels about his class because I have no clue about who he is and his solution to fix his own class is to nerf another. I do feel for the people that play the same class that I play with and know personally. Those same people though aren't out there campaigning for a nerf to my class. Its because of them that I agree that Guards need a boost to agro. They should be generating just as much hate as the other fighters.Of course I have explained this many times and have posted ideas on how I think they could get some good changes that would not completely ruin the identity of their class. I understand though, its way harder to make suggestions for a class than it is to cry nerf instead....you know how that works perfectly right?

Wasuna

06-10-2010, 06:20 PM

Ah... We all understood but now it's confirmed.

Maamadex

06-10-2010, 07:48 PM

The idea of this game ever being balanced as far as any class type is hilarious to me. To be honest, fighters seem a bit closer to being "balanced" than they ever have. If sony even pretends to desire balance tho they need to just make a new game with fewer classes. I will say that in the 5 years or so that i've played, this is the most fun my paladin has ever been. And sks were just about total crap before TSO. Both of our classes benefited from the TSO boost, paladins mainly cause they were associated with shadowknights.

BChizzle

06-10-2010, 08:06 PM

<cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite><blockquote>The idea of this game ever being balanced as far as any class type is hilarious to me. To be honest, fighters seem a bit closer to being "balanced" than they ever have. If sony even pretends to desire balance tho they need to just make a new game with fewer classes. I will say that in the 5 years or so that i've played, this is the most fun my paladin has ever been. And sks were just about total crap before TSO. Both of our classes benefited from the TSO boost, paladins mainly cause they were associated with shadowknights.</blockquote>If the game were as balanced as you claim you wouldn't see such an abnormal amount of crusaders as we see out there and you wouldn't see single target tanks quiting in droves the way they are. Balance doesn't mean the game is better for crusaders then anyone that is imbalance.

Gungo

06-10-2010, 08:37 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite><blockquote>The idea of this game ever being balanced as far as any class type is hilarious to me. To be honest, fighters seem a bit closer to being "balanced" than they ever have. If sony even pretends to desire balance tho they need to just make a new game with fewer classes. I will say that in the 5 years or so that i've played, this is the most fun my paladin has ever been. And sks were just about total crap before TSO. Both of our classes benefited from the TSO boost, paladins mainly cause they were associated with shadowknights.</blockquote>If the game were as balanced as you claim you wouldn't see such an abnormal amount of crusaders as we see out there and you wouldn't see single target tanks quiting in droves the way they are. Balance doesn't mean the game is better for crusaders then anyone that is imbalance.</blockquote>Its balanced in the fact all 3 fighter types are desired in raids. its balanced in the fact hat no subclass is useless on raids. All 3 fighter types can tank. All 3 fighter types can hold agro. All 3 fighter types can complete any heroic content. All 3 fighter types can solo. Some fighters tank better, some do more dps, some solo better. But each fighter is able to complete ALL content. There is no fighter that is the best at everything. Even your own tirade against shadowknights can't claim that. Since shadowknights are not the best defensive tank in the game.Using player preferance as a means of justifying balance is a flawed concept. FUN does not equal Balance. Necromancers are one of the most popular classes in the entire game and no one in the entire game would even remotely claim they are unbalanced or overpowered. Druids have always been the most popular healer and yet traditionally were considered the worst healer.The reason that fighter are MORE balanced now then they have ever been for me is 1 simple reason. Right now in eq2 there is no fighter class that is useless all 3 fighter classes are needed and each subclass can fulfill its role in raids or in groups. There are no pre-tso shadowknights, there are no all powerful guardians from EOF which was both the best aoe tank and best maintank. Brawlers are no longer deemed inferior tanks. As we have been since this games inception up till SF. Fighters as a whole are more balanced now then at any point in eq2's life.

BChizzle

06-10-2010, 09:20 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its balanced in the fact all 3 fighter types are desired in raids. its balanced in the fact hat no subclass is useless on raids. All 3 fighter types can tank. All 3 fighter types can hold agro. All 3 fighter types can complete any heroic content. All 3 fighter types can solo. Some fighters tank better, some do more dps, some solo better. But each fighter is able to complete ALL content. There is no fighter that is the best at everything. Even your own tirade against shadowknights can't claim that. Since shadowknights are not the best defensive tank in the game.Using player preferance as a means of justifying balance is a flawed concept. FUN does not equal Balance. Necromancers are one of the most popular classes in the entire game and no one in the entire game would even remotely claim they are unbalanced or overpowered. Druids have always been the most popular healer and yet traditionally were considered the worst healer.The reason that fighter are MORE balanced now then they have ever been for me is 1 simple reason. Right now in eq2 there is no fighter class that is useless all 3 fighter classes are needed and each subclass can fulfill its role in raids or in groups. There are no pre-tso shadowknights, there are no all powerful guardians from EOF which was both the best aoe tank and best maintank. Brawlers are no longer deemed inferior tanks. As we have been since this games inception up till SF. Fighters as a whole are more balanced now then at any point in eq2's life.</blockquote>You don't need or require all 3 fighter types in raid in fact the trend is actually moving away from that as many guilds are going with paly/sk combo there is 1 fight that forces you to have all 3 classes that is no different then in KoS or EoF.

Soul_Dreamer

06-10-2010, 09:40 PM

You're wrong Gungo, a Guardian isn't desired or needed in any raid UNLESS they are in the position of Main tank, they simply offer nothing in any way to benefit a raid except for this one role. The problem for me and many others is that a Guardian just doens't have the sustained agro to be able to perform this role anymore when balanced against the other plate tanks. Basically the large reduction in hate on the MT can hurt the raid more than the small gain in survivability with a Guardian MT than any other plate tank.In TSO and SF all other tanks gained survivability tools and snap agro tools to rival the Guardians tool set but at the same time all Guardians got was nerfs and adjustments, to the point where now all plate tanks have similar survivability but the Guardian is miles behind in hate generation. When all tanks where given more or less equal survivability all should have been given more or less equal hate.The plate tanks maybe more balanced than they've ever been in the case that 3 out of the 4 are about equal in all areas, that doesn't mean that the 4th doesn't deserve to be brought in line as well, be that through adjustments to the other 3 tanks or bringing the 4th up. I'd much rather they bring Guardian DPS and Hate up than touch the other tanks but SOE have always been bad at balancing and have often used a knife when a scalpel will do.The bottom line is that the Guardian no longer has a role in a raid, all 4 tanks have the survivability to perform the MT role, and the measure is now hate/utiltiy/dps, non of which a Guardian offers as much as the other plate tanks.

Gungo

06-10-2010, 10:31 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its balanced in the fact all 3 fighter types are desired in raids. its balanced in the fact hat no subclass is useless on raids. All 3 fighter types can tank. All 3 fighter types can hold agro. All 3 fighter types can complete any heroic content. All 3 fighter types can solo. Some fighters tank better, some do more dps, some solo better. But each fighter is able to complete ALL content. There is no fighter that is the best at everything. Even your own tirade against shadowknights can't claim that. Since shadowknights are not the best defensive tank in the game.Using player preferance as a means of justifying balance is a flawed concept. FUN does not equal Balance. Necromancers are one of the most popular classes in the entire game and no one in the entire game would even remotely claim they are unbalanced or overpowered. Druids have always been the most popular healer and yet traditionally were considered the worst healer.The reason that fighter are MORE balanced now then they have ever been for me is 1 simple reason. Right now in eq2 there is no fighter class that is useless all 3 fighter classes are needed and each subclass can fulfill its role in raids or in groups. There are no pre-tso shadowknights, there are no all powerful guardians from EOF which was both the best aoe tank and best maintank. Brawlers are no longer deemed inferior tanks. As we have been since this games inception up till SF. Fighters as a whole are more balanced now then at any point in eq2's life.</blockquote>You don't need or require all 3 fighter types in raid in fact the trend is actually moving away from that as many guilds are going with paly/sk combo there is 1 fight that forces you to have all 3 classes that is no different then in KoS or EoF.</blockquote>Almost every guild raids with 1 fighter from each class. Again everything I wrote above is completely valid. There is no trend of guilds dropping warriors for crusaders. That same argument was first used in tso and that trend still never happened. And ironically enough shadowknights were better then then they are now.

Gungo

06-10-2010, 10:53 PM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're wrong Gungo, a Guardian isn't desired or needed in any raid UNLESS they are in the position of Main tank, they simply offer nothing in any way to benefit a raid except for this one role. The problem for me and many others is that a Guardian just doens't have the sustained agro to be able to perform this role anymore when balanced against the other plate tanks. Basically the large reduction in hate on the MT can hurt the raid more than the small gain in survivability with a Guardian MT than any other plate tank.In TSO and SF all other tanks gained survivability tools and snap agro tools to rival the Guardians tool set but at the same time all Guardians got was nerfs and adjustments, to the point where now all plate tanks have similar survivability but the Guardian is miles behind in hate generation. When all tanks where given more or less equal survivability all should have been given more or less equal hate.The plate tanks maybe more balanced than they've ever been in the case that 3 out of the 4 are about equal in all areas, that doesn't mean that the 4th doesn't deserve to be brought in line as well, be that through adjustments to the other 3 tanks or bringing the 4th up. I'd much rather they bring Guardian DPS and Hate up than touch the other tanks but SOE have always been bad at balancing and have often used a knife when a scalpel will do.The bottom line is that the Guardian no longer has a role in a raid, all 4 tanks have the survivability to perform the MT role, and the measure is now hate/utiltiy/dps, non of which a Guardian offers as much as the other plate tanks.</blockquote>The maintank position is traditionally the Guardian role. Guardians are still desired for that position. Furthermore most guardian have no issues with agro UNLESS it relates to other fighters pulling agro.Also the fact you think that balanced is based on 4 tanks says miles about your opinion of the 6 fighter classes. Regardless of your obvious bias I agree guardians can use more sustained agro, imho. So that the other FIVE (5) fighter classes wouldnt pull agro from a maintank guardian without them using snaps. Maybe the guardian is not the best at everything tanking anymore but this still doesnt change the fact that fighters are more balanced now then ever. While all 6 tanks have the survivability to perform the MT role NONE of the other 5 tanks are as defensive as the guardian.Just because i beleive tanks are more balanced now then at any other point in eq2's life. I do not beleive everything is perfect. I think guardians are the fighter in need of slight attention. A small increase in sustained agro (something like the zerkers ability to turn damage taken into additional hategain). There are ideas I think they should use to change guardian and all fighters short term mitigation buffs to be more useful. But regardless of those changes the current fighter balance is no were near as drastic as it was in the past were people like you felt brawlers were worthless tanks, that shadowknights were worthless, and guardians until EOF were the best all around aoe and single target tank in the game.

BChizzle

06-11-2010, 12:56 AM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Almost every guild raids with 1 fighter from each class. Again everything I wrote above is completely valid. There is no trend of guilds dropping warriors for crusaders. That same argument was first used in tso and that trend still never happened. And ironically enough shadowknights were better then then they are now.</blockquote>ROFL a quick look at top guilds in progression says you are wrongDefiance, Shoukin, Equilibrium, Dracos Argent, Xanadu, Feral Fires, Transcendence etc etc etc all raiding regularily without brawlers or warriors in raid and that doesn't even count the guilds who keep them on the roster but don't even really use them.

Nulgara

06-11-2010, 02:04 AM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>The maintank position is traditionally the Guardian role. Guardians are still desired for that position. Furthermore most guardian have no issues with agro UNLESS it relates to other fighters pulling agro.</blockquote>certainly traditionaly that WAS there role.I have ot disagree that they are still desired for that position. the 1 and only reason our guardain is still our mt is because our SK isnt geared up yet. once that happens though( and i feel very bad that this will happen cause our guard is an awesome tank) our guard will nto have a prayer of holding agro off that SK (neither will my monk in all honesty) but your right any non fighter in the raid agro isnt an issue, its the crusaders domination of agro that is causing the issues.everyhting else though i pretty much agree, but im also of the mind that guards arent the only ones that need agro loving while in the tanking role. I like the idea being tossed around of bring the other 3 tanks (not just the guardian) up to the level of the crusader/zerkers agro abilities (but vs a single target the zerker needs a bit of love also for agro i think) then once that happens boosting the mobs to compensate for the increase.anymore its liek a wait and see game we are playing. hopefully soe does it the right way with the least amount of nerfing or non at all. traditionally they dont really do that to well though. but meh wait and see. hopefully guards (and others) get what they need to not only fix the multi fighter agro issues but also to increase the fun factor to where it shoudl be.

Phelon_Skellhound

06-11-2010, 02:19 AM

Phelon_Skellhound

06-11-2010, 02:34 AM

<cite>Nulgara@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>The maintank position is traditionally the Guardian role. Guardians are still desired for that position. Furthermore most guardian have no issues with agro UNLESS it relates to other fighters pulling agro.</blockquote>certainly traditionaly that WAS there role.I have ot disagree that they are still desired for that position. the 1 and only reason our guardain is still our mt is because our SK isnt geared up yet. once that happens though( and i feel very bad that this will happen cause our guard is an awesome tank) our guard will nto have a prayer of holding agro off that SK (neither will my monk in all honesty) but your right any non fighter in the raid agro isnt an issue, its the crusaders domination of agro that is causing the issues.everyhting else though i pretty much agree, but im also of the mind that guards arent the only ones that need agro loving while in the tanking role. I like the idea being tossed around of bring the other 3 tanks (not just the guardian) up to the level of the crusader/zerkers agro abilities (but vs a single target the zerker needs a bit of love also for agro i think) then once that happens boosting the mobs to compensate for the increase.anymore its liek a wait and see game we are playing. hopefully soe does it the right way with the least amount of nerfing or non at all. traditionally they dont really do that to well though. but meh wait and see. hopefully guards (and others) get what they need to not only fix the multi fighter agro issues but also to increase the fun factor to where it shoudl be.</blockquote>In TSO we did a SK mt and Zerker/Pally OT... Now we run Zerker MT and SK primary/Pally/Guard or Brawler OT we are defensive minded admittedly but we run with a warrior crusader brawler most of the time and sometimes 2 of thesame archtype depending on open slots.. just depends on the guild really

Soul_Dreamer

06-11-2010, 07:09 AM

Gungo -I know there are 2 other tank types and from the players I know who play them I'm told they're able to perform their role ok, survivability is better than it has ever been but they could do with more sustained hate when they have to drop into a more defensive role.However, I have never really raided with a Brawler and all we've recruited previously haven't been able to compare to our OT's (SK andPally). We do have a main Brawler in the guild currently but his attendance keeps him from a lot of our raids so I honestly have no personal experience of Brawlers so I stay away from comparisons with them so I don't start making assuption that are untrue. We use an Alt for the Mages fight that requires a Brawler.The Plate tanks I know pretty well and have played Guard and SK pretty extensively. We've had the same 3 tanks since RoK, and have had the Guardian (Me) and SK (My brother) since DoF, as a trio we can clearly see where things have changed for us personally over the years and all 3 of us agree that Guardian hate isn't where it needs to be in comparison to the other PLATE tanks.Sure as a Guardian I can hold the raid but holding hate of my brothers SK when he's in his usual group of SK/Troub/Illy/Wizard/Congy/Inquis is an utter ballache and it takes all I have and him with a deagro from the Coercer to do it, I'll be in offensive with a decent amount of offensive gear and duel weilding to do this and in doing so I've lost all the positives of my class in survivability. The Pally can be just as bad if he feels like it. My OT's don't have the issue of having to use a 2 hander or pile on the offensive gear to do this, they can match my DPS/Hate in sword and board mode with a couple of pieces of offensive gear. As a Guardian, if I can't hold the raid including the OT's with a Dirge/Assassin/Coercer especially when I go to the lengths I do of maxxing my DPS and hate, then something is out of balance and needs adjusting.

Wasuna

06-11-2010, 10:38 AM

All of the raid points are very good. But lets also not forget that a Crusader can tank a heroic instance group and get the zone done at least twice as fast as any Guardian.Crusaders, mostly SK's, have everything right now and that is unacceptable.

BChizzle

06-11-2010, 11:38 AM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gungo -I know there are 2 other tank types and from the players I know who play them I'm told they're able to perform their role ok, survivability is better than it has ever been but they could do with more sustained hate when they have to drop into a more defensive role.However, I have never really raided with a Brawler and all we've recruited previously haven't been able to compare to our OT's (SK andPally). We do have a main Brawler in the guild currently but his attendance keeps him from a lot of our raids so I honestly have no personal experience of Brawlers so I stay away from comparisons with them so I don't start making assuption that are untrue. We use an Alt for the Mages fight that requires a Brawler.The Plate tanks I know pretty well and have played Guard and SK pretty extensively. We've had the same 3 tanks since RoK, and have had the Guardian (Me) and SK (My brother) since DoF, as a trio we can clearly see where things have changed for us personally over the years and all 3 of us agree that Guardian hate isn't where it needs to be in comparison to the other PLATE tanks.Sure as a Guardian I can hold the raid but holding hate of my brothers SK when he's in his usual group of SK/Troub/Illy/Wizard/Congy/Inquis is an utter ballache and it takes all I have and him with a deagro from the Coercer to do it, I'll be in offensive with a decent amount of offensive gear and duel weilding to do this and in doing so I've lost all the positives of my class in survivability. The Pally can be just as bad if he feels like it. My OT's don't have the issue of having to use a 2 hander or pile on the offensive gear to do this, they can match my DPS/Hate in sword and board mode with a couple of pieces of offensive gear. As a Guardian, if I can't hold the raid including the OT's with a Dirge/Assassin/Coercer especially when I go to the lengths I do of maxxing my DPS and hate, then something is out of balance and needs adjusting.</blockquote>This sums it up nicely. That is not balance and the game has NEVER in its history had such a huge imbalance like this, even in the days when brawlers and crusaders were second fiddle to warriors you could put a brawler and crusader in the MT group and they could always hold agro off the raid.

BChizzle

06-11-2010, 11:40 AM

<cite>Khatiru@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Almost every guild raids with 1 fighter from each class. Again everything I wrote above is completely valid. There is no trend of guilds dropping warriors for crusaders. That same argument was first used in tso and that trend still never happened. And ironically enough shadowknights were better then then they are now.</blockquote>ROFL a quick look at top guilds in progression says you are wrongDefiance, Shoukin, Equilibrium, Dracos Argent, Xanadu, Feral Fires, Transcendence etc etc etc all raiding regularily without brawlers or warriors in raid and that doesn't even count the guilds who keep them on the roster but don't even really use them.</blockquote>You are wrong Dracos Argent has a Monk main and also a Zerker main... I should know they are on my server. Also if you think about it, its not totally true since they all need a brawler to do 3 sages...</blockquote>Was going down the list of names, and bringing a brawler in for sages is NOT raiding with all three tank types in fact they had to change the encounter to force guilds to use a brawler which made me lawl.

Nakash

06-11-2010, 12:21 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Almost every guild raids with 1 fighter from each class. Again everything I wrote above is completely valid. There is no trend of guilds dropping warriors for crusaders. That same argument was first used in tso and that trend still never happened. And ironically enough shadowknights were better then then they are now.</blockquote>ROFL a quick look at top guilds in progression says you are wrongDefiance, Shoukin, Equilibrium, Dracos Argent, Xanadu, Feral Fires, Transcendence etc etc etc all raiding regularily without brawlers or warriors in raid and that doesn't even count the guilds who keep them on the roster but don't even really use them.</blockquote>And i didnt wanted to post on that nonsens here again... but well.Tanks in Feral Fires are mostly long time players. We always had a guard or two. We also had zerkers. Our second guard switched back to his old Mainchar wich he betrayed from SK to paladin cause thats what he likes to play and paladin have become a valid option for MT during TSO. Or oldest bruiser left us in EoF due to personal reasons and no way we did not want him. We had brawlers in Rok and TSO also but they left also by own decision. We had a bruiser in SF and he did a good job but also left shortly, We now have an Monk trial. Me the SK joined Feral Fires early in EoF, yeah you know one of the times people said SKs are bad. And we always worked our way through the complete expansions.All in all it seems we were just a bit unlucky in finding brawler people who were good at there class and then had the time or the motivation to stay. Those that were with us had no problem in tanking what ever came across.Some things what you and some people talk here is such a BS that i cant decide if i should laugh or cry.I am in no way not saying there arent still some things that should be even out or geting improved for the one classor the other. But people that come here that state: "It had to be this and this way and that is the only way!" are hard to be taken serious. Best example i think is the dps tier list that moorgard once posted wich has been droped long time ago and even Moorgard said it was a bad idea to post that list has once again been pulled out of the grave. Just funny or sad, i cant really decide.Point if you want to be a good raid tank is:-> Get youre stuff done, and be able to play with youre other tanks as a team not as "who is the king of the applepie" contest.This was alway valid from EQ2 Start to SF today.

Bruener

06-11-2010, 12:23 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gungo -I know there are 2 other tank types and from the players I know who play them I'm told they're able to perform their role ok, survivability is better than it has ever been but they could do with more sustained hate when they have to drop into a more defensive role.However, I have never really raided with a Brawler and all we've recruited previously haven't been able to compare to our OT's (SK andPally). We do have a main Brawler in the guild currently but his attendance keeps him from a lot of our raids so I honestly have no personal experience of Brawlers so I stay away from comparisons with them so I don't start making assuption that are untrue. We use an Alt for the Mages fight that requires a Brawler.The Plate tanks I know pretty well and have played Guard and SK pretty extensively. We've had the same 3 tanks since RoK, and have had the Guardian (Me) and SK (My brother) since DoF, as a trio we can clearly see where things have changed for us personally over the years and all 3 of us agree that Guardian hate isn't where it needs to be in comparison to the other PLATE tanks.Sure as a Guardian I can hold the raid but holding hate of my brothers SK when he's in his usual group of SK/Troub/Illy/Wizard/Congy/Inquis is an utter ballache and it takes all I have and him with a deagro from the Coercer to do it, I'll be in offensive with a decent amount of offensive gear and duel weilding to do this and in doing so I've lost all the positives of my class in survivability. The Pally can be just as bad if he feels like it. My OT's don't have the issue of having to use a 2 hander or pile on the offensive gear to do this, they can match my DPS/Hate in sword and board mode with a couple of pieces of offensive gear. As a Guardian, if I can't hold the raid including the OT's with a Dirge/Assassin/Coercer especially when I go to the lengths I do of maxxing my DPS and hate, then something is out of balance and needs adjusting.</blockquote>This sums it up nicely. That is not balance and the game has NEVER in its history had such a huge imbalance like this, even in the days when brawlers and crusaders were second fiddle to warriors you could put a brawler and crusader in the MT group and they could always hold agro off the raid.</blockquote>That is not true at all. In RoK putting a SK in the MT spot was a huge detriment. Their survivability was way lower and to top it off their DPS/Agro was the lowest. It is no different than how things are now with Guards where it was a constant struggle to hold agro off of other tanks, only the difference was it was a lot harder to hold agro off of DPS as well....oh AND SKs had no snap abilities to help with it, and they took the most damage while doing it.But we all seem to be going round and round and the one thing that everybody has acknowledged is that Guards should be generating more agro to be equal to the other fighters. Now whether they want that in DPS, which seems silly because than you are just turning them into the other tanks classes, or whether it is in raw agro is the real debate. Also it is recognized that Brawlers have the same issue when going tank mode. What I think needs to be done is that both Brawlers in defensive and Guards need a bump to ST DPS to be equal to the other tanks and than need a bump in AE TPS.

Gungo

06-11-2010, 01:08 PM

BChizzle

06-11-2010, 01:12 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gungo -I know there are 2 other tank types and from the players I know who play them I'm told they're able to perform their role ok, survivability is better than it has ever been but they could do with more sustained hate when they have to drop into a more defensive role.However, I have never really raided with a Brawler and all we've recruited previously haven't been able to compare to our OT's (SK andPally). We do have a main Brawler in the guild currently but his attendance keeps him from a lot of our raids so I honestly have no personal experience of Brawlers so I stay away from comparisons with them so I don't start making assuption that are untrue. We use an Alt for the Mages fight that requires a Brawler.The Plate tanks I know pretty well and have played Guard and SK pretty extensively. We've had the same 3 tanks since RoK, and have had the Guardian (Me) and SK (My brother) since DoF, as a trio we can clearly see where things have changed for us personally over the years and all 3 of us agree that Guardian hate isn't where it needs to be in comparison to the other PLATE tanks.Sure as a Guardian I can hold the raid but holding hate of my brothers SK when he's in his usual group of SK/Troub/Illy/Wizard/Congy/Inquis is an utter ballache and it takes all I have and him with a deagro from the Coercer to do it, I'll be in offensive with a decent amount of offensive gear and duel weilding to do this and in doing so I've lost all the positives of my class in survivability. The Pally can be just as bad if he feels like it. My OT's don't have the issue of having to use a 2 hander or pile on the offensive gear to do this, they can match my DPS/Hate in sword and board mode with a couple of pieces of offensive gear. As a Guardian, if I can't hold the raid including the OT's with a Dirge/Assassin/Coercer especially when I go to the lengths I do of maxxing my DPS and hate, then something is out of balance and needs adjusting.</blockquote>This sums it up nicely. That is not balance and the game has NEVER in its history had such a huge imbalance like this, even in the days when brawlers and crusaders were second fiddle to warriors you could put a brawler and crusader in the MT group and they could always hold agro off the raid.</blockquote>That is not true at all. In RoK putting a SK in the MT spot was a huge detriment. Their survivability was way lower and to top it off their DPS/Agro was the lowest. It is no different than how things are now with Guards where it was a constant struggle to hold agro off of other tanks, only the difference was it was a lot harder to hold agro off of DPS as well....oh AND SKs had no snap abilities to help with it, and they took the most damage while doing it.But we all seem to be going round and round and the one thing that everybody has acknowledged is that Guards should be generating more agro to be equal to the other fighters. Now whether they want that in DPS, which seems silly because than you are just turning them into the other tanks classes, or whether it is in raw agro is the real debate. Also it is recognized that Brawlers have the same issue when going tank mode. What I think needs to be done is that both Brawlers in defensive and Guards need a bump to ST DPS to be equal to the other tanks and than need a bump in AE TPS.</blockquote>There were many crusader tanks in RoK including SK's, my guild ran a paly all through RoK. You were way underpowered compared to guards (which btw were nerfed multiple times in RoK which everyone just seems to forget) but you could still hold agro, I agree though the issue was SK's were squishy which was bad and they fixed.But I am glad to see you coming around, yes guards and brawlers need a bump in ST dps. Also, I think AE TPS can be left alone, a guard and brawler can tank AE wise fine as long as its not against an AE tank, but if you have an AE tank in the raid for an AE encounter then why even use the brawler or guard for it right? The difference is that on ST targets you can still use an AE tank even if you have ST tanks because guards and brawlers aren't built like crusaders if they don't hit their taunts/procs/reactives for threat then a AE tank isn't going to lose ST agro.I am perfectly fine with AE tanks still being the choice for AE encounters and also being able to still ST tank, where it gets messed up is when you have a ST tank tanking a ST mob and using every trick in the book and an AE tank takes agro without even trying. All things equal ST tank going all out should never lose agro to an AE tank (not counting bad use of snaps.) Bruener you know you have to sit on your hands when a ST tank is tanking all that needs to be changed is that they have a bit more agro and you will find things more enjoyable even for yourself.

BChizzle

06-11-2010, 01:14 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Almost every guild raids with 1 fighter from each class. Again everything I wrote above is completely valid. There is no trend of guilds dropping warriors for crusaders. That same argument was first used in tso and that trend still never happened. And ironically enough shadowknights were better then then they are now.</blockquote>ROFL a quick look at top guilds in progression says you are wrongDefiance, Shoukin, Equilibrium, Dracos Argent, Xanadu, Feral Fires, Transcendence etc etc etc all raiding regularily without brawlers or warriors in raid and that doesn't even count the guilds who keep them on the roster but don't even really use them.</blockquote>Less lying more facts next time cupcake. Honestly did you even check before you decided to start lying?Equilibrium has both a zerk and monk. As does dracos argent, and Xanadu and Feral Fires and Transcendence.In fact every guild but yours and shoukin has an active warrior/brawler.Next time try not lying to prove a point. It only makes your argument look more like crap. oops whats that half the guilds you listed just called you out as a liar? </blockquote>Go look at the guild rosters again.

Gungo

06-11-2010, 01:14 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gungo -I know there are 2 other tank types and from the players I know who play them I'm told they're able to perform their role ok, survivability is better than it has ever been but they could do with more sustained hate when they have to drop into a more defensive role.However, I have never really raided with a Brawler and all we've recruited previously haven't been able to compare to our OT's (SK andPally). We do have a main Brawler in the guild currently but his attendance keeps him from a lot of our raids so I honestly have no personal experience of Brawlers so I stay away from comparisons with them so I don't start making assuption that are untrue. We use an Alt for the Mages fight that requires a Brawler.The Plate tanks I know pretty well and have played Guard and SK pretty extensively. We've had the same 3 tanks since RoK, and have had the Guardian (Me) and SK (My brother) since DoF, as a trio we can clearly see where things have changed for us personally over the years and all 3 of us agree that Guardian hate isn't where it needs to be in comparison to the other PLATE tanks.Sure as a Guardian I can hold the raid but holding hate of my brothers SK when he's in his usual group of SK/Troub/Illy/Wizard/Congy/Inquis is an utter ballache and it takes all I have and him with a deagro from the Coercer to do it, I'll be in offensive with a decent amount of offensive gear and duel weilding to do this and in doing so I've lost all the positives of my class in survivability. The Pally can be just as bad if he feels like it. My OT's don't have the issue of having to use a 2 hander or pile on the offensive gear to do this, they can match my DPS/Hate in sword and board mode with a couple of pieces of offensive gear. As a Guardian, if I can't hold the raid including the OT's with a Dirge/Assassin/Coercer especially when I go to the lengths I do of maxxing my DPS and hate, then something is out of balance and needs adjusting.</blockquote>This sums it up nicely. That is not balance and the game has NEVER in its history had such a huge imbalance like this, even in the days when brawlers and crusaders were second fiddle to warriors you could put a brawler and crusader in the MT group and they could always hold agro off the raid.</blockquote>You have serious issues if you think "Sure as a Guardian I can hold the raid but holding hate of my brothers SK when he's in his usual group of SK/Troub/Illy/Wizard/Congy/Inquis is an utter ballache" That agro management between fighters is the biggest game imbalance fighters have ever seen. NOTICE he says he has no issue holding aggro from the raid.

Gungo

06-11-2010, 01:16 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Almost every guild raids with 1 fighter from each class. Again everything I wrote above is completely valid. There is no trend of guilds dropping warriors for crusaders. That same argument was first used in tso and that trend still never happened. And ironically enough shadowknights were better then then they are now.</blockquote>ROFL a quick look at top guilds in progression says you are wrongDefiance, Shoukin, Equilibrium, Dracos Argent, Xanadu, Feral Fires, Transcendence etc etc etc all raiding regularily without brawlers or warriors in raid and that doesn't even count the guilds who keep them on the roster but don't even really use them.</blockquote>Less lying more facts next time cupcake. Honestly did you even check before you decided to start lying?Equilibrium has both a zerk and monk. As does dracos argent, and Xanadu and Feral Fires and Transcendence.In fact every guild but yours and shoukin has an active warrior/brawler.Next time try not lying to prove a point. It only makes your argument look more like crap. oops whats that half the guilds you listed just called you out as a liar? </blockquote>Go look at the guild rosters again.</blockquote>Take your own advice.

BChizzle

06-11-2010, 01:18 PM

<cite>Azzaroth@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Almost every guild raids with 1 fighter from each class. Again everything I wrote above is completely valid. There is no trend of guilds dropping warriors for crusaders. That same argument was first used in tso and that trend still never happened. And ironically enough shadowknights were better then then they are now.</blockquote>ROFL a quick look at top guilds in progression says you are wrongDefiance, Shoukin, Equilibrium, Dracos Argent, Xanadu, Feral Fires, Transcendence etc etc etc all raiding regularily without brawlers or warriors in raid and that doesn't even count the guilds who keep them on the roster but don't even really use them.</blockquote>And i didnt wanted to post on that nonsens here again... but well.Tanks in Feral Fires are mostly long time players. We always had a guard or two. We also had zerkers. Our second guard switched back to his old Mainchar wich he betrayed from SK to paladin cause thats what he likes to play and paladin have become a valid option for MT during TSO. Or oldest bruiser left us in EoF due to personal reasons and no way we did not want him. We had brawlers in Rok and TSO also but they left also by own decision. We had a bruiser in SF and he did a good job but also left shortly, We now have an Monk trial. Me the SK joined Feral Fires early in EoF, yeah you know one of the times people said SKs are bad. And we always worked our way through the complete expansions.All in all it seems we were just a bit unlucky in finding brawler people who were good at there class and then had the time or the motivation to stay. Those that were with us had no problem in tanking what ever came across.Some things what you and some people talk here is such a BS that i cant decide if i should laugh or cry.I am in no way not saying there arent still some things that should be even out or geting improved for the one classor the other. But people that come here that state: "It had to be this and this way and that is the only way!" are hard to be taken serious. Best example i think is the dps tier list that moorgard once posted wich has been droped long time ago and even Moorgard said it was a bad idea to post that list has once again been pulled out of the grave. Just funny or sad, i cant really decide.Point if you want to be a good raid tank is:-> Get youre stuff done, and be able to play with youre other tanks as a team not as "who is the king of the applepie" contest.This was alway valid from EQ2 Start to SF today.</blockquote>Doesn't change the fact you aren't using one. In fact most of the guards still tanking are there because they are long time members and it is out of loyalty not class effectiveness. Most of the brawlers raiding now are there because of 3 sages and nothing else, in fact I witnessed first hand when people got to sages that people were finally recruiting brawlers again which hasn't happened like that since monks got their OP raidwide in EoF.

BChizzle

06-11-2010, 01:22 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Almost every guild raids with 1 fighter from each class. Again everything I wrote above is completely valid. There is no trend of guilds dropping warriors for crusaders. That same argument was first used in tso and that trend still never happened. And ironically enough shadowknights were better then then they are now.</blockquote>ROFL a quick look at top guilds in progression says you are wrongDefiance, Shoukin, Equilibrium, Dracos Argent, Xanadu, Feral Fires, Transcendence etc etc etc all raiding regularily without brawlers or warriors in raid and that doesn't even count the guilds who keep them on the roster but don't even really use them.</blockquote>Less lying more facts next time cupcake. Honestly did you even check before you decided to start lying?Equilibrium has both a zerk and monk. As does dracos argent, and Xanadu and Feral Fires and Transcendence.In fact every guild but yours and shoukin has an active warrior/brawler.Next time try not lying to prove a point. It only makes your argument look more like crap. oops whats that half the guilds you listed just called you out as a liar? </blockquote>Go look at the guild rosters again.</blockquote>Take your own advice.</blockquote>Take your own Equilibriums zerk is a RECRUIT, Xanadu's only warrior is an INACTIVE, Feral Fires already answered here, and Transcendence doesn't have a member thats a brawler just alts. Keep on trying tho!

Bruener

06-11-2010, 02:19 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gungo -I know there are 2 other tank types and from the players I know who play them I'm told they're able to perform their role ok, survivability is better than it has ever been but they could do with more sustained hate when they have to drop into a more defensive role.However, I have never really raided with a Brawler and all we've recruited previously haven't been able to compare to our OT's (SK andPally). We do have a main Brawler in the guild currently but his attendance keeps him from a lot of our raids so I honestly have no personal experience of Brawlers so I stay away from comparisons with them so I don't start making assuption that are untrue. We use an Alt for the Mages fight that requires a Brawler.The Plate tanks I know pretty well and have played Guard and SK pretty extensively. We've had the same 3 tanks since RoK, and have had the Guardian (Me) and SK (My brother) since DoF, as a trio we can clearly see where things have changed for us personally over the years and all 3 of us agree that Guardian hate isn't where it needs to be in comparison to the other PLATE tanks.Sure as a Guardian I can hold the raid but holding hate of my brothers SK when he's in his usual group of SK/Troub/Illy/Wizard/Congy/Inquis is an utter ballache and it takes all I have and him with a deagro from the Coercer to do it, I'll be in offensive with a decent amount of offensive gear and duel weilding to do this and in doing so I've lost all the positives of my class in survivability. The Pally can be just as bad if he feels like it. My OT's don't have the issue of having to use a 2 hander or pile on the offensive gear to do this, they can match my DPS/Hate in sword and board mode with a couple of pieces of offensive gear. As a Guardian, if I can't hold the raid including the OT's with a Dirge/Assassin/Coercer especially when I go to the lengths I do of maxxing my DPS and hate, then something is out of balance and needs adjusting.</blockquote>This sums it up nicely. That is not balance and the game has NEVER in its history had such a huge imbalance like this, even in the days when brawlers and crusaders were second fiddle to warriors you could put a brawler and crusader in the MT group and they could always hold agro off the raid.</blockquote>That is not true at all. In RoK putting a SK in the MT spot was a huge detriment. Their survivability was way lower and to top it off their DPS/Agro was the lowest. It is no different than how things are now with Guards where it was a constant struggle to hold agro off of other tanks, only the difference was it was a lot harder to hold agro off of DPS as well....oh AND SKs had no snap abilities to help with it, and they took the most damage while doing it.But we all seem to be going round and round and the one thing that everybody has acknowledged is that Guards should be generating more agro to be equal to the other fighters. Now whether they want that in DPS, which seems silly because than you are just turning them into the other tanks classes, or whether it is in raw agro is the real debate. Also it is recognized that Brawlers have the same issue when going tank mode. What I think needs to be done is that both Brawlers in defensive and Guards need a bump to ST DPS to be equal to the other tanks and than need a bump in AE TPS.</blockquote>There were many crusader tanks in RoK including SK's, my guild ran a paly all through RoK. You were way underpowered compared to guards (which btw were nerfed multiple times in RoK which everyone just seems to forget) but you could still hold agro, I agree though the issue was SK's were squishy which was bad and they fixed.But I am glad to see you coming around, yes guards and brawlers need a bump in ST dps. Also, I think AE TPS can be left alone, a guard and brawler can tank AE wise fine as long as its not against an AE tank, but if you have an AE tank in the raid for an AE encounter then why even use the brawler or guard for it right? The difference is that on ST targets you can still use an AE tank even if you have ST tanks because guards and brawlers aren't built like crusaders if they don't hit their taunts/procs/reactives for threat then a AE tank isn't going to lose ST agro.I am perfectly fine with AE tanks still being the choice for AE encounters and also being able to still ST tank, where it gets messed up is when you have a ST tank tanking a ST mob and using every trick in the book and an AE tank takes agro without even trying. All things equal ST tank going all out should never lose agro to an AE tank (not counting bad use of snaps.) Bruener you know you have to sit on your hands when a ST tank is tanking all that needs to be changed is that they have a bit more agro and you will find things more enjoyable even for yourself.</blockquote>Yes I won't deny I have to make sure hate buffs are off me and transfers are off me when the Guard is tanking and I am DPS'ing. Guards do need a big bump to ST TPS, and it probably should come from a mixture of having both some added DPS and added raw hate while tanking. Defensive brawlers are in the same exact boat and probably need the same added benefit (this would be much harder to balance if it was added DPS). A Guard or Brawler tanking a ST mob should not have anybody ripping off them. I know it sounds like that dumbs down the game even more...but they have already made it that way for holding off of anybody squishy or that can't take the hits. Just get it over with and make it so somebody that knows how to do their job will have that agro locked.However, that really is not the only issue with Guards. The problem with Guards is their blah play-style. Crusaders, Zerkers, and Brawlers are all much more enjoyable to play for the combo of DPS + Utility they bring. What I think really needs to happen is additional active survivability utility added to the class. Abilities like stone sphere, but instead of the Guard taking all that damage it should just be a plain group stone-skin great for protecting their group on inc AEs. Change the recapture ability to lower the hate positions of those around the Guard (group) to protect them. Somebody mentioned an intercede ability that maybe had a positional on it for the Guard. I think there is a lot of untapped ideas in this category that if made active abilities would really make the class enjoyable to play without losing identity.

BChizzle

06-11-2010, 02:34 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes I won't deny I have to make sure hate buffs are off me and transfers are off me when the Guard is tanking and I am DPS'ing. Guards do need a big bump to ST TPS, and it probably should come from a mixture of having both some added DPS and added raw hate while tanking. Defensive brawlers are in the same exact boat and probably need the same added benefit (this would be much harder to balance if it was added DPS). A Guard or Brawler tanking a ST mob should not have anybody ripping off them. I know it sounds like that dumbs down the game even more...but they have already made it that way for holding off of anybody squishy or that can't take the hits. Just get it over with and make it so somebody that knows how to do their job will have that agro locked.However, that really is not the only issue with Guards. The problem with Guards is their blah play-style. Crusaders, Zerkers, and Brawlers are all much more enjoyable to play for the combo of DPS + Utility they bring. What I think really needs to happen is additional active survivability utility added to the class. Abilities like stone sphere, but instead of the Guard taking all that damage it should just be a plain group stone-skin great for protecting their group on inc AEs. Change the recapture ability to lower the hate positions of those around the Guard (group) to protect them. Somebody mentioned an intercede ability that maybe had a positional on it for the Guard. I think there is a lot of untapped ideas in this category that if made active abilities would really make the class enjoyable to play without losing identity.</blockquote>Brawlers don't really have utility, they don't even have a group buff they get their raidwide and if you want to count it a slight advatage on their avoidance buff. It used to be the case that a brawler could go offensive and their utility could be the fact they did great dps unfortunately we don't dps as high as we used to.On the group stoneskin thing its gimmicky, like I can't see a guild wanting to bring a guardian for a group stoneskin, on top of that it would be really OP and possibly content breaking I mean you could group stoneskin to just ignore fail scripts and jousts etc. I know this cause I use my brawler stoneskin to do that exact thing. What would be really cool though if you wanted to do like a guard skill that was unique would be the guards having something like concerto but for heals where they could hit it and over a period of time all heals put on the guard would come back as a massive group HoT once it triggered. Again though I doubt it would make people want to bring a guard but it would probably be less game breaking then a group stoneskin.

Landiin

06-11-2010, 02:48 PM

There are a lot off good idea and even good ones from Bruener here. But what really would make the guard wanted in raids again is LOADS MORE ST TPS/HATE and for the named mob to hit like a truck again and the guard being the only tank that could efficiently deal with the inc damage along with effectively keeping hate on the name. NOTE key word is efficiently , I did not say the only one.

BChizzle

06-11-2010, 02:58 PM

<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are a lot off good idea and even good ones from Bruener here. But what really would make the guard wanted in raids again is LOADS MORE ST TPS/HATE and for the named mob to hit like a truck again and the guard being the only tank that could efficiently deal with the inc damage along with effectively keeping hate on the name. NOTE key word is efficiently , I did not say the only one.</blockquote>Nobody wants that, in fact that is why you are getting such push back from other tanks.

Landiin

06-11-2010, 03:00 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are a lot off good idea and even good ones from Bruener here. But what really would make the guard wanted in raids again is LOADS MORE ST TPS/HATE and for the named mob to hit like a truck again and the guard being the only tank that could efficiently deal with the inc damage along with effectively keeping hate on the name. NOTE key word is efficiently , I did not say the only one.</blockquote>Nobody wants that, in fact that is why you are getting such push back from other tanks.</blockquote>That is what you don't want. I see a lot of guards saying they roll to tank not dps. So your Nobody is pretty much you from what I can tell. Sure DSP is fun but in the end we just want to be able to hold agro off the the raid efficiently and tank the names.

BChizzle

06-11-2010, 03:12 PM

<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are a lot off good idea and even good ones from Bruener here. But what really would make the guard wanted in raids again is LOADS MORE ST TPS/HATE and for the named mob to hit like a truck again and the guard being the only tank that could efficiently deal with the inc damage along with effectively keeping hate on the name. NOTE key word is efficiently , I did not say the only one.</blockquote>Nobody wants that, in fact that is why you are getting such push back from other tanks.</blockquote>That is what you don't want. I see a lot of guards saying they roll to tank not dps. So your Nobody is pretty much you from what I can tell. Sure DSP is fun but in the end we just want to be able to hold agro off the the raid efficiently and tank the names. </blockquote>Having someone be the "ONLY TANK" that can do anything is what got you in this problem to begin with.

Gungo

06-11-2010, 04:29 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Almost every guild raids with 1 fighter from each class. Again everything I wrote above is completely valid. There is no trend of guilds dropping warriors for crusaders. That same argument was first used in tso and that trend still never happened. And ironically enough shadowknights were better then then they are now.</blockquote>ROFL a quick look at top guilds in progression says you are wrongDefiance, Shoukin, Equilibrium, Dracos Argent, Xanadu, Feral Fires, Transcendence etc etc etc all raiding regularily without brawlers or warriors in raid and that doesn't even count the guilds who keep them on the roster but don't even really use them.</blockquote>Less lying more facts next time cupcake. Honestly did you even check before you decided to start lying?Equilibrium has both a zerk and monk. As does dracos argent, and Xanadu and Feral Fires and Transcendence.In fact every guild but yours and shoukin has an active warrior/brawler.Next time try not lying to prove a point. It only makes your argument look more like crap. oops whats that half the guilds you listed just called you out as a liar? </blockquote>Go look at the guild rosters again.</blockquote>Take your own advice.</blockquote>Take your own Equilibriums zerk is a RECRUIT, Xanadu's only warrior is an INACTIVE, Feral Fires already answered here, and Transcendence doesn't have a member thats a brawler just alts. Keep on trying tho!</blockquote>Do you know what recruits mean? That they were actively seeking a replacement, because they WANT one. Feral fires already said you were WRONG. Dracos argent has said you were WRONG, equilibrium has both, Feral fires has both and transcedence brawler still raids and posts regularly on the boards. Xandu's only warrior still has 56% attendance and still raids. Again stop lying because you obviosuly are making stuff up.I dont need to argue this with you because these guilds have posted and said you were WRONG.Your vandetta against shadowknights is actually hilarious. It just shows how badly you get owned. You might want to psend more time in game parsing then on the boards crying, fatty.

Bruener

06-11-2010, 04:31 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are a lot off good idea and even good ones from Bruener here. But what really would make the guard wanted in raids again is LOADS MORE ST TPS/HATE and for the named mob to hit like a truck again and the guard being the only tank that could efficiently deal with the inc damage along with effectively keeping hate on the name. NOTE key word is efficiently , I did not say the only one.</blockquote>Nobody wants that, in fact that is why you are getting such push back from other tanks.</blockquote>That is what you don't want. I see a lot of guards saying they roll to tank not dps. So your Nobody is pretty much you from what I can tell. Sure DSP is fun but in the end we just want to be able to hold agro off the the raid efficiently and tank the names. </blockquote>Having someone be the "ONLY TANK" that can do anything is what got you in this problem to begin with.</blockquote>Yep, definitely. The other fighters don't want to be second rate tanks for when a Guard can't be found. The mentality of One Tank to Rule Them all is out the window with the end of RoK and really it comes down to how enjoyable a class is to play. The real reason people are moving away from playing Guards is not because they can't do their job imo, its because the way they do the job isn't nearly as enjoyable. The game has moved far far away from sit there and taunt the mob while the rest of your raid does the work. There is much more scripting going on forcing players as a whole to focus on the encounter.Making the class more contributing in survival utility just seems like the right way to go.

BChizzle

06-11-2010, 04:49 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do you know what recruits mean? That they were actively seeking a replacement, because they WANT one. Feral fires already said you were WRONG. Dracos argent has said you were WRONG, equilibrium has both, Feral fires has both and transcedence brawler still raids and posts regularly on the boards. Xandu's only warrior still has 56% attendance and still raids. Again stop lying because you obviosuly are making stuff up.I dont need to argue this with you because these guilds have posted and said you were WRONG.Your vandetta against shadowknights is actually hilarious. It just shows how badly you get owned. You might want to psend more time in game parsing then on the boards crying, fatty.</blockquote>Grats on name calling after I have proven you wrong YET again. I don't need to ever stoop to your level and call names all I need to do is point out how absolutely stupid your posts are and let you do the rest.

BChizzle

06-11-2010, 04:51 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are a lot off good idea and even good ones from Bruener here. But what really would make the guard wanted in raids again is LOADS MORE ST TPS/HATE and for the named mob to hit like a truck again and the guard being the only tank that could efficiently deal with the inc damage along with effectively keeping hate on the name. NOTE key word is efficiently , I did not say the only one.</blockquote>Nobody wants that, in fact that is why you are getting such push back from other tanks.</blockquote>That is what you don't want. I see a lot of guards saying they roll to tank not dps. So your Nobody is pretty much you from what I can tell. Sure DSP is fun but in the end we just want to be able to hold agro off the the raid efficiently and tank the names. </blockquote>Having someone be the "ONLY TANK" that can do anything is what got you in this problem to begin with.</blockquote>Yep, definitely. The other fighters don't want to be second rate tanks for when a Guard can't be found. The mentality of One Tank to Rule Them all is out the window with the end of RoK and really it comes down to how enjoyable a class is to play. The real reason people are moving away from playing Guards is not because they can't do their job imo, its because the way they do the job isn't nearly as enjoyable. The game has moved far far away from sit there and taunt the mob while the rest of your raid does the work. There is much more scripting going on forcing players as a whole to focus on the encounter.Making the class more contributing in survival utility just seems like the right way to go.</blockquote>Except current guardians really can't do the job. You can have a crusader sit on their hands so that a guard can tank but really all that does is highlight that the guardian isn't good enough.

Bruener

06-11-2010, 04:56 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are a lot off good idea and even good ones from Bruener here. But what really would make the guard wanted in raids again is LOADS MORE ST TPS/HATE and for the named mob to hit like a truck again and the guard being the only tank that could efficiently deal with the inc damage along with effectively keeping hate on the name. NOTE key word is efficiently , I did not say the only one.</blockquote>Nobody wants that, in fact that is why you are getting such push back from other tanks.</blockquote>That is what you don't want. I see a lot of guards saying they roll to tank not dps. So your Nobody is pretty much you from what I can tell. Sure DSP is fun but in the end we just want to be able to hold agro off the the raid efficiently and tank the names. </blockquote>Having someone be the "ONLY TANK" that can do anything is what got you in this problem to begin with.</blockquote>Yep, definitely. The other fighters don't want to be second rate tanks for when a Guard can't be found. The mentality of One Tank to Rule Them all is out the window with the end of RoK and really it comes down to how enjoyable a class is to play. The real reason people are moving away from playing Guards is not because they can't do their job imo, its because the way they do the job isn't nearly as enjoyable. The game has moved far far away from sit there and taunt the mob while the rest of your raid does the work. There is much more scripting going on forcing players as a whole to focus on the encounter.Making the class more contributing in survival utility just seems like the right way to go.</blockquote>Except current guardians really can't do the job. You can have a crusader sit on their hands so that a guard can tank but really all that does is highlight that the guardian isn't good enough.</blockquote>Pretty sure Guards can tank any content in this game. They can take hits very well and they can hold agro off of any non-fighter class. Again running circles here though. We both agree that Guards should be producing more TPS than they currently are now.

Landiin

06-11-2010, 05:04 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are a lot off good idea and even good ones from Bruener here. But what really would make the guard wanted in raids again is LOADS MORE ST TPS/HATE and for the named mob to hit like a truck again and the guard being the only tank that could efficiently deal with the inc damage along with effectively keeping hate on the name. NOTE key word is efficiently , I did not say the only one.</blockquote>Nobody wants that, in fact that is why you are getting such push back from other tanks.</blockquote>That is what you don't want. I see a lot of guards saying they roll to tank not dps. So your Nobody is pretty much you from what I can tell. Sure DSP is fun but in the end we just want to be able to hold agro off the the raid efficiently and tank the names. </blockquote>Having someone be the "ONLY TANK" that can do anything is what got you in this problem to begin with.</blockquote>Good god man I even bolded efficiently! No where did I say be the 'ONLY TANK'. Maybe I should of made it a bigger font? Would that of helped you out any?

BChizzle

06-11-2010, 05:09 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Pretty sure Guards can tank any content in this game. They can take hits very well and they can hold agro off of any non-fighter class. Again running circles here though. We both agree that Guards should be producing more TPS than they currently are now.</blockquote>For the most part the concensus is any tank can absorb the damage of any raid mobs in this game. So from a survivability standpoint all tanks can get the job done. Also some tanks take certain types of damage better for example some are better on single targets and some can just pull a whole room and then you have brawlers that have a distinct advantage on high strikethrough mobs. I think survivability is pretty balanced right now but that could change in an instant anyways, if they get agro balanced then they can maybe work on some utility.

BChizzle

06-11-2010, 05:13 PM

<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are a lot off good idea and even good ones from Bruener here. But what really would make the guard wanted in raids again is LOADS MORE ST TPS/HATE and for the named mob to hit like a truck again and the guard being the only tank that could efficiently deal with the inc damage along with effectively keeping hate on the name. NOTE key word is efficiently , I did not say the only one.</blockquote>Nobody wants that, in fact that is why you are getting such push back from other tanks.</blockquote>That is what you don't want. I see a lot of guards saying they roll to tank not dps. So your Nobody is pretty much you from what I can tell. Sure DSP is fun but in the end we just want to be able to hold agro off the the raid efficiently and tank the names. </blockquote>Having someone be the "ONLY TANK" that can do anything is what got you in this problem to begin with.</blockquote>Good god man I even bolded efficiently! No where did I say be the 'ONLY TANK'. Maybe I should of made it a bigger font? Would that of helped you out any?</blockquote>I don't care what you bolded, saying ONLY tank then saying others could do it just not as great doesn't change the ONLY TANK part. All tanks should be able to step in and fill whatever tanking role that is needed efficiently with little or no adjustment. Some tanks might be better at some things but nobody should be the only efficient one to do it.

Landiin

06-11-2010, 07:09 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are a lot off good idea and even good ones from Bruener here. But what really would make the guard wanted in raids again is LOADS MORE ST TPS/HATE and for the named mob to hit like a truck again and the guard being the only tank that could efficiently deal with the inc damage along with effectively keeping hate on the name. NOTE key word is efficiently , I did not say the only one.</blockquote>Nobody wants that, in fact that is why you are getting such push back from other tanks.</blockquote>That is what you don't want. I see a lot of guards saying they roll to tank not dps. So your Nobody is pretty much you from what I can tell. Sure DSP is fun but in the end we just want to be able to hold agro off the the raid efficiently and tank the names. </blockquote>Having someone be the "ONLY TANK" that can do anything is what got you in this problem to begin with.</blockquote>Good god man I even bolded efficiently! No where did I say be the 'ONLY TANK'. Maybe I should of made it a bigger font? Would that of helped you out any?</blockquote>I don't care what you bolded, saying ONLY tank then saying others could do it just not as great doesn't change the ONLY TANK part. All tanks should be able to step in and fill whatever tanking role that is needed efficiently with little or no adjustment. Some tanks might be better at some things but nobody should be the only efficient one to do it.</blockquote>I don't think you could double talk any more ROFL...

Nulgara

06-11-2010, 10:46 PM

here let me help you get his point.this is what YOU said the guard being the only tank that could efficiently deal with the inc damagesee that nice unbolded ONLY in there. being the ONLY one capable of doing it RIGHT IS A ONE TANK TO RULE THEM ALL idea.face facts here. raiders are a min/max crowd very few are so casual as to not care. if tank 1 is the best tank for the raid as a whole they become the ONLY tank for the raid as a whole.we've been there. no thanks dont need that garbage again..moving on.

Wurm

06-12-2010, 02:45 AM

Nerfherders are always the same, they always cryout that they "Want to help the class they are calling the nerf for!"BS.Guardians need more agro management and thats it.I am personally really tired of these threads and the people who make them, every time a class gets nerfed people get mad and leave the game. And we are running out of players at an alarming rate.Ask that others get buffed and the content adjusted and everyone has fun playing the game.Nerfs help no one.

Phelon_Skellhound

06-12-2010, 03:15 AM

I can agree with that point of view... bring the Guards up first... step back to look at the picture and see where the rough spots are... then reduce/increase and adjust accordingly to re-balance out the scales to see where to focus next

Wurm

06-12-2010, 05:31 AM

<cite>Khatiru@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can agree with that point of view... bring the Guards up first... step back to look at the picture and see where the rough spots are... then reduce/increase and adjust accordingly to re-balance out the scales to see where to focus next</blockquote>Amen.

Orthureon

06-12-2010, 05:03 PM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nerfherders are always the same, they always cryout that they "Want to help the class they are calling the nerf for!"BS.Guardians need more agro management and thats it.I am personally really tired of these threads and the people who make them, every time a class gets nerfed people get mad and leave the game. And we are running out of players at an alarming rate.Ask that others get buffed and the content adjusted and everyone has fun playing the game.Nerfs help no one.</blockquote>Yes I am sure everyone should be brought up to god-mode because you feel nerfs make people leave the game. So then you want every mob to be buffed up aswell?

Landiin

06-12-2010, 06:18 PM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nerfherders are always the same, they always cryout that they "Want to help the class they are calling the nerf for!"BS.Guardians need more agro management and thats it.I am personally really tired of these threads and the people who make them, every time a class gets nerfed people get mad and leave the game. And we are running out of players at an alarming rate.Ask that others get buffed and the content adjusted and everyone has fun playing the game.Nerfs help no one.</blockquote>WOW you are so smart! The game will really be good when it is trivialized by ever class because. God forbid a class gets adjusted down to fit where it should be. I do believe there is a shortage of chromosomes on these forums.

Wurm

06-12-2010, 08:00 PM

All old content and overland content is trivial... get over it.And there is plenty of hard content left in the game... stop QQing about SKs and go look for it.

Landiin

06-13-2010, 12:12 AM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>All old content and overland content is trivial... get over it.And there is plenty of hard content left in the game... stop QQing about SKs and go look for it.</blockquote>Dude, Crusaders are soloing new instances much less old content and overland is a joke. There is no QQ here, just facts. Like I said a shortage of chromosomes going on here.

lollipop

06-13-2010, 12:54 AM

Plea for balance lol yeah right. The tone down zerkers, and temps, and also assassins ....plea ....whatever. its a request to make alts on diffrent accts more powerful...btw zerkers can solo consvetory to with proc heals. Felecia does it all the time my zerker. I also used to have a SK Keila who was also OP and a paly who was eh i preffered the zerker or SK. Tanks are more balanced now then ever cept guards need some help and monk. All others are gtg. Sorry no top tanks anymore be it guards, sk or zerkers or whatever. Tho monks and bruisers never had thier chance =(.

Wurm

06-13-2010, 03:20 AM

<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>All old content and overland content is trivial... get over it.And there is plenty of hard content left in the game... stop QQing about SKs and go look for it.</blockquote>Dude, Crusaders are soloing new instances much less old content and overland is a joke. There is no QQ here, just facts. Like I said a shortage of chromosomes going on here.</blockquote>Calling me a shortbus rider in a offhanded way isn't making your point.I play a instance-geared Paladin, and there isn't a single new SF instance out there I can solo, same goes for my guild's instance-geared SK, so quit lying.Raiders saying content (not really meant for them and their gear) is too easy, got old a few expansions ago...Old content and overland is a joke and has been for a while, but its now meant for everyone to use to solo level, the forced grouping to level left the game around the same time they nerfed the Antonica scarecrows.Do I like it? No. Do I think its the class change fault? No. Do I think it has everything to do with the OP gear we have been given since ROK? Very much so.So once again, Buff Guardian Hate gain, and slightly adjust the content accordingly. Its not rocket science. And if you feel OPed playing your SK, try using lesser gear... oh wait thats a bad idea isn't it? What would the others who inspect your toon think?

Macross_JR

06-13-2010, 11:33 AM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>All old content and overland content is trivial... get over it.And there is plenty of hard content left in the game... stop QQing about SKs and go look for it.</blockquote>Dude, Crusaders are soloing new instances much less old content and overland is a joke. There is no QQ here, just facts. Like I said a shortage of chromosomes going on here.</blockquote>Calling me a shortbus rider in a offhanded way isn't making your point.I play a instance-geared Paladin, and there isn't a single new SF instance out there I can solo, same goes for my guild's instance-geared SK, so quit lying.Raiders saying content (not really meant for them and their gear) is too easy, got old a few expansions ago...Old content and overland is a joke and has been for a while, but its now meant for everyone to use to solo level, the forced grouping to level left the game around the same time they nerfed the Antonica scarecrows.Do I like it? No. Do I think its the class change fault? No. Do I think it has everything to do with the OP gear we have been given since ROK? Very much so.So once again, Buff Guardian Hate gain, and slightly adjust the content accordingly. Its not rocket science. And if you feel OPed playing your SK, try using lesser gear... oh wait thats a bad idea isn't it? What would the others who inspect your toon think?</blockquote>Honestly Wurm, just because you or someone else can't do it doesn't mean other can't as well.

Landiin

06-13-2010, 12:14 PM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>All old content and overland content is trivial... get over it.And there is plenty of hard content left in the game... stop QQing about SKs and go look for it.</blockquote>Dude, Crusaders are soloing new instances much less old content and overland is a joke. There is no QQ here, just facts. Like I said a shortage of chromosomes going on here.</blockquote>Calling me a shortbus rider in a offhanded way isn't making your point.I play a instance-geared Paladin, and there isn't a single new SF instance out there I can solo, same goes for my guild's instance-geared SK, so quit lying.Raiders saying content (not really meant for them and their gear) is too easy, got old a few expansions ago...Old content and overland is a joke and has been for a while, but its now meant for everyone to use to solo level, the forced grouping to level left the game around the same time they nerfed the Antonica scarecrows.Do I like it? No. Do I think its the class change fault? No. Do I think it has everything to do with the OP gear we have been given since ROK? Very much so.So once again, Buff Guardian Hate gain, and slightly adjust the content accordingly. Its not rocket science. And if you feel OPed playing your SK, try using lesser gear... oh wait thats a bad idea isn't it? What would the others who inspect your toon think?</blockquote>Ok sorry I wasn't referring directly at you just some of the post in general in this thread. I am sorry if my text hurt your feeling. I am a nice guy after all, really I am.I know of 1 or 2 that can, plus the one that posted in this very thread. It can be done and it is bing done, I even know an assassin that do most of library.

Bruener

06-13-2010, 12:14 PM

<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>All old content and overland content is trivial... get over it.And there is plenty of hard content left in the game... stop QQing about SKs and go look for it.</blockquote>Dude, Crusaders are soloing new instances much less old content and overland is a joke. There is no QQ here, just facts. Like I said a shortage of chromosomes going on here.</blockquote>Please show us to the instances that only Crusaders that are not over-geared (meaning raid geared) are solo'ing that are new. Curious so as a raid geared SK I can give it a go because it is definitely not easy at all even with top gear to try and kill the named in the easiest heroic instance out there.My guess we are talking about toons that are over-geared, meaning they are solo'ing content that is way trivial to them and they are loading up all the survivability gear they can to do it. This very same content can be solo'd by various other over-geared classes as well...including probably every other fighter.

Landiin

06-13-2010, 12:15 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>All old content and overland content is trivial... get over it.And there is plenty of hard content left in the game... stop QQing about SKs and go look for it.</blockquote>Dude, Crusaders are soloing new instances much less old content and overland is a joke. There is no QQ here, just facts. Like I said a shortage of chromosomes going on here.</blockquote>Please show us to the instances that only Crusaders that are not over-geared (meaning raid geared) are solo'ing that are new. Curious so as a raid geared SK I can give it a go because it is definitely not easy at all even with top gear to try and kill the named in the easiest heroic instance out there.My guess we are talking about toons that are over-geared, meaning they are solo'ing content that is way trivial to them and they are loading up all the survivability gear they can to do it. This very same content can be solo'd by various other over-geared classes as well...including probably every other fighter.</blockquote>This is one of them post BTW!

Wurm

06-13-2010, 02:51 PM

<cite>Githil@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>All old content and overland content is trivial... get over it.And there is plenty of hard content left in the game... stop QQing about SKs and go look for it.</blockquote>Dude, Crusaders are soloing new instances much less old content and overland is a joke. There is no QQ here, just facts. Like I said a shortage of chromosomes going on here.</blockquote>Calling me a shortbus rider in a offhanded way isn't making your point.I play a instance-geared Paladin, and there isn't a single new SF instance out there I can solo, same goes for my guild's instance-geared SK, so quit lying.Raiders saying content (not really meant for them and their gear) is too easy, got old a few expansions ago...Old content and overland is a joke and has been for a while, but its now meant for everyone to use to solo level, the forced grouping to level left the game around the same time they nerfed the Antonica scarecrows.Do I like it? No. Do I think its the class change fault? No. Do I think it has everything to do with the OP gear we have been given since ROK? Very much so.So once again, Buff Guardian Hate gain, and slightly adjust the content accordingly. Its not rocket science. And if you feel OPed playing your SK, try using lesser gear... oh wait thats a bad idea isn't it? What would the others who inspect your toon think?</blockquote>Honestly Wurm, just because you or someone else can't do it doesn't mean other can't as well.</blockquote>Give me the same gear and I could do it in a heart beat, but that isn't the point. This has gone the way as that more than stupid "OMG NERF PALADINS!!!!!111" thread someone posted a while back when a uber-geared Paladin soloed the x4 guard in Qeynos.And obviously you ignored over half my post, you know the part about OP gear.I'd still like to see that "god like needs to be nerfed" SK post a film of him soloing Cella or one of the Vigilant zones. I'm not going to hold my breath though.

Wurm

06-13-2010, 02:58 PM

<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote> I am sorry if my text hurt your feeling. I am a nice guy after all, really I am.</blockquote>lol I'm a bit thicker skinned than all that. You will have to try a lot harder to hurt my feelings online.

Orthureon

06-13-2010, 06:40 PM

<cite>lollipop wrote:</cite><blockquote>whatever. its a request to make alts on diffrent accts more powerful..</blockquote>My alts on different accounts consist of a 90 Paladin, and a 70 Zerker that is locked. There is no hidden agenda. My main toon is an SK. I realize that it means absolutely nothing about Crusaders current state when everyone on Nagafen has atleast one... /sarcasm off

lollipop

06-14-2010, 01:15 AM

<cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>lollipop wrote:</cite><blockquote>whatever. its a request to make alts on diffrent accts more powerful..</blockquote>My alts on different accounts consist of a 90 Paladin, and a 70 Zerker that is locked. There is no hidden agenda. My main toon is an SK. I realize that it means absolutely nothing about Crusaders current state when everyone on Nagafen has atleast one... /sarcasm off</blockquote>blah...blah...blah...blah thats what I hear from you. Blah..blah...blah nerf classes....blah blah..blah Gear makes most of the classes op anyways.I could also care less about pvp server. Or whatever balance someone wants from a pvp server. Half the time these nerf threads are due to people on pvp. I mean [Removed for Content] shut up already.(edit) Its people like you screaming nerf this and that, that will kill this game. This game is already very old and low sub's. Lets nerf every class and drive even more people from the game. Given like I said guards do need a bump up. But [Removed for Content] zerkers/crusaders pretty much same level. THo zerkers will say SK to powerful and SK say zerkers are ...la de da...and the circle keeps going...

Hallowell

06-14-2010, 08:07 AM

<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>All old content and overland content is trivial... get over it.And there is plenty of hard content left in the game... stop QQing about SKs and go look for it.</blockquote>Dude, Crusaders are soloing new instances much less old content and overland is a joke. There is no QQ here, just facts. Like I said a shortage of chromosomes going on here.</blockquote>Calling me a shortbus rider in a offhanded way isn't making your point.I play a instance-geared Paladin, and there isn't a single new SF instance out there I can solo, same goes for my guild's instance-geared SK, so quit lying.Raiders saying content (not really meant for them and their gear) is too easy, got old a few expansions ago...Old content and overland is a joke and has been for a while, but its now meant for everyone to use to solo level, the forced grouping to level left the game around the same time they nerfed the Antonica scarecrows.Do I like it? No. Do I think its the class change fault? No. Do I think it has everything to do with the OP gear we have been given since ROK? Very much so.So once again, Buff Guardian Hate gain, and slightly adjust the content accordingly. Its not rocket science. And if you feel OPed playing your SK, try using lesser gear... oh wait thats a bad idea isn't it? What would the others who inspect your toon think?</blockquote>Ok sorry I wasn't referring directly at you just some of the post in general in this thread. I am sorry if my text hurt your feeling. I am a nice guy after all, really I am.I know of 1 or 2 that can, plus the one that posted in this very thread. It can be done and it is bing done, I even know an assassin that do most of library. </blockquote>AMAGAWD! Nerf assasins! neeerf! QQ...mommy...

Hallowell

06-14-2010, 08:11 AM

<cite>lollipop wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>lollipop wrote:</cite><blockquote>whatever. its a request to make alts on diffrent accts more powerful..</blockquote>My alts on different accounts consist of a 90 Paladin, and a 70 Zerker that is locked. There is no hidden agenda. My main toon is an SK. I realize that it means absolutely nothing about Crusaders current state when everyone on Nagafen has atleast one... /sarcasm off</blockquote>blah...blah...blah...blah thats what I hear from you. Blah..blah...blah nerf classes....blah blah..blah Gear makes most of the classes op anyways.I could also care less about pvp server. Or whatever balance someone wants from a pvp server. Half the time these nerf threads are due to people on pvp. I mean [Removed for Content] shut up already.(edit) Its people like you screaming nerf this and that, that will kill this game. This game is already very old and low sub's. Lets nerf every class and drive even more people from the game. Given like I said guards do need a bump up. But [Removed for Content] zerkers/crusaders pretty much same level. THo zerkers will say SK to powerful and SK say zerkers are ...la de da...and the circle keeps going...</blockquote>Hey dont forget that he started out by using the excuse that his SK could solo the 95x4 guard in the city - what he just forgot to say was, that those guards are greatly dumbed down / mislabeled... They hit like a 60 tripple heroic <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and is easily duo'ed by any combination on my server <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> so... cant really use the guard-excuse anymore, can ya? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Landiin

06-14-2010, 01:12 PM

<cite>Hallowell@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>lollipop wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>lollipop wrote:</cite><blockquote>whatever. its a request to make alts on diffrent accts more powerful..</blockquote>My alts on different accounts consist of a 90 Paladin, and a 70 Zerker that is locked. There is no hidden agenda. My main toon is an SK. I realize that it means absolutely nothing about Crusaders current state when everyone on Nagafen has atleast one... /sarcasm off</blockquote>blah...blah...blah...blah thats what I hear from you. Blah..blah...blah nerf classes....blah blah..blah Gear makes most of the classes op anyways.I could also care less about pvp server. Or whatever balance someone wants from a pvp server. Half the time these nerf threads are due to people on pvp. I mean [Removed for Content] shut up already.(edit) Its people like you screaming nerf this and that, that will kill this game. This game is already very old and low sub's. Lets nerf every class and drive even more people from the game. Given like I said guards do need a bump up. But [Removed for Content] zerkers/crusaders pretty much same level. THo zerkers will say SK to powerful and SK say zerkers are ...la de da...and the circle keeps going...</blockquote>Hey dont forget that he started out by using the excuse that his SK could solo the 95x4 guard in the city - what he just forgot to say was, that those guards are greatly dumbed down / mislabeled... They hit like a 60 tripple heroic <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /> and is easily duo'ed by any combination on my server <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> so... cant really use the guard-excuse anymore, can ya? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Talk about QQ thats all you do chicka.

Orthureon

06-14-2010, 05:03 PM

<cite>Hallowell@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey dont forget that he started out by using the excuse that his SK could solo the 95x4 guard in the city - what he just forgot to say was, that those guards are greatly dumbed down / mislabeled... They hit like a 60 tripple heroic <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /> and is easily duo'ed by any combination on my server <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> so... cant really use the guard-excuse anymore, can ya? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Yes the guards are not that beastmode, sure I will give you that. However, what about me soloing (not duoing) level 90+ 3up mobs from this expansion? Hell anyone here can ask me to solo some 3ups that you think are badass and I will give it a shot and parse it."and is easily duo'ed by any combination on my server"How can you compare duoing to soloing?I guess there has to be a archetype for the more "casual" players.

Bruener

06-14-2010, 05:51 PM

<cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Hallowell@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey dont forget that he started out by using the excuse that his SK could solo the 95x4 guard in the city - what he just forgot to say was, that those guards are greatly dumbed down / mislabeled... They hit like a 60 tripple heroic <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /> and is easily duo'ed by any combination on my server <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> so... cant really use the guard-excuse anymore, can ya? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Yes the guards are not that beastmode, sure I will give you that. However, what about me soloing (not duoing) level 90+ 3up mobs from this expansion? Hell anyone here can ask me to solo some 3ups that you think are badass and I will give it a shot and parse it."and is easily duo'ed by any combination on my server"How can you compare duoing to soloing?I guess there has to be a archetype for the more "casual" players. </blockquote>Those same mobs are solo'able by equal Paladins, probably any nub mage, good rogues, equal Brawlers, good Zerkers, equal Inq, any nub warden, etc. etc. etc.Please take it to the PvP boards if you have a problem with PvP issues. Most of us didn't sign up to play EQ2 to have it balanced against PvP....the game just isn't designed for it.

Phelon_Skellhound

06-14-2010, 10:22 PM

Just in case you guys missed it.... This was posted today....<cite>timetravelling wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Draagun wrote:</cite><blockquote>2) Class Balance</blockquote>is ongoing, and, imo, going well. Beyond abilities that are bugged, we prefer not to adjust classes between updates. Any balance changes would likely come with GU57</blockquote>

Landiin

06-15-2010, 11:07 AM

No didn't miss it. Its not like any thing is going to be done in GU57 any ways so I just ignored it like they ignore us.

Hallowell

06-15-2010, 04:28 PM

<cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Hallowell@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey dont forget that he started out by using the excuse that his SK could solo the 95x4 guard in the city - what he just forgot to say was, that those guards are greatly dumbed down / mislabeled... They hit like a 60 tripple heroic <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /> and is easily duo'ed by any combination on my server <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> so... cant really use the guard-excuse anymore, can ya? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Yes the guards are not that beastmode, sure I will give you that. However, what about me soloing (not duoing) level 90+ 3up mobs from this expansion? Hell anyone here can ask me to solo some 3ups that you think are badass and I will give it a shot and parse it."and is easily duo'ed by any combination on my server"How can you compare duoing to soloing?I guess there has to be a archetype for the more "casual" players. </blockquote>I've even seen ppl solo them. And not only crusaders...so <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> So far I've seen wardens, brigs and I believe I saw a ranger doing it. Cant remember if he was grouped though.

Hallowell

06-15-2010, 04:30 PM

<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Hallowell@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>lollipop wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>lollipop wrote:</cite><blockquote>whatever. its a request to make alts on diffrent accts more powerful..</blockquote>My alts on different accounts consist of a 90 Paladin, and a 70 Zerker that is locked. There is no hidden agenda. My main toon is an SK. I realize that it means absolutely nothing about Crusaders current state when everyone on Nagafen has atleast one... /sarcasm off</blockquote>blah...blah...blah...blah thats what I hear from you. Blah..blah...blah nerf classes....blah blah..blah Gear makes most of the classes op anyways.I could also care less about pvp server. Or whatever balance someone wants from a pvp server. Half the time these nerf threads are due to people on pvp. I mean [Removed for Content] shut up already.(edit) Its people like you screaming nerf this and that, that will kill this game. This game is already very old and low sub's. Lets nerf every class and drive even more people from the game. Given like I said guards do need a bump up. But [Removed for Content] zerkers/crusaders pretty much same level. THo zerkers will say SK to powerful and SK say zerkers are ...la de da...and the circle keeps going...</blockquote>Hey dont forget that he started out by using the excuse that his SK could solo the 95x4 guard in the city - what he just forgot to say was, that those guards are greatly dumbed down / mislabeled... They hit like a 60 tripple heroic <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /> and is easily duo'ed by any combination on my server <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> so... cant really use the guard-excuse anymore, can ya? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Talk about QQ thats all you do chicka.</blockquote>Show me just ONE place where I have QQ'ed... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Orthureon

06-15-2010, 09:42 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Hallowell@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey dont forget that he started out by using the excuse that his SK could solo the 95x4 guard in the city - what he just forgot to say was, that those guards are greatly dumbed down / mislabeled... They hit like a 60 tripple heroic <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /> and is easily duo'ed by any combination on my server <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> so... cant really use the guard-excuse anymore, can ya? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Yes the guards are not that beastmode, sure I will give you that. However, what about me soloing (not duoing) level 90+ 3up mobs from this expansion? Hell anyone here can ask me to solo some 3ups that you think are badass and I will give it a shot and parse it."and is easily duo'ed by any combination on my server"How can you compare duoing to soloing?I guess there has to be a archetype for the more "casual" players. </blockquote>Those same mobs are solo'able by equal Paladins, probably any nub mage, good rogues, equal Brawlers, good Zerkers, equal Inq, any nub warden, etc. etc. etc.Please take it to the PvP boards if you have a problem with PvP issues. Most of us didn't sign up to play EQ2 to have it balanced against PvP....the game just isn't designed for it.</blockquote>You do realize just because I am on a PVP server I also PVE... woah! Yes Crusaders are overpowered, that is the whole point. I mean you did state Paladins (highlighted in green) which is what I also posted about in the VERY first post. I suppose you saw "nerf", and Shadowknight in the same paragraph and skipped the last one. Which, if you missed it stated Paladins also need to be adjusted. Anyways, Bruener I guess you just need better gear to fully realize your classes potential.EDIT: Also, since you seem to be unaware of how the PVP servers work, I will enlighten you. On PVP servers they can adjust anything for PVP ONLY. These changes are shown when you click the little "PVP" checkbox in the description.

Hallowell

06-16-2010, 05:21 AM

<cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Hallowell@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey dont forget that he started out by using the excuse that his SK could solo the 95x4 guard in the city - what he just forgot to say was, that those guards are greatly dumbed down / mislabeled... They hit like a 60 tripple heroic <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /> and is easily duo'ed by any combination on my server <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> so... cant really use the guard-excuse anymore, can ya? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Yes the guards are not that beastmode, sure I will give you that. However, what about me soloing (not duoing) level 90+ 3up mobs from this expansion? Hell anyone here can ask me to solo some 3ups that you think are badass and I will give it a shot and parse it."and is easily duo'ed by any combination on my server"How can you compare duoing to soloing?I guess there has to be a archetype for the more "casual" players. </blockquote>Those same mobs are solo'able by equal Paladins, probably any nub mage, good rogues, equal Brawlers, good Zerkers, equal Inq, any nub warden, etc. etc. etc.Please take it to the PvP boards if you have a problem with PvP issues. Most of us didn't sign up to play EQ2 to have it balanced against PvP....the game just isn't designed for it.</blockquote>You do realize just because I am on a PVP server I also PVE... woah! Yes Crusaders are overpowered, that is the whole point. I mean you did state Paladins (highlighted in green) which is what I also posted about in the VERY first post. I suppose you saw "nerf", and Shadowknight in the same paragraph and skipped the last one. Which, if you missed it stated Paladins also need to be adjusted. Anyways, Bruener I guess you just need better gear to fully realize your classes potential.EDIT: Also, since you seem to be unaware of how the PVP servers work, I will enlighten you. On PVP servers they can adjust anything for PVP ONLY. These changes are shown when you click the little "PVP" checkbox in the description.</blockquote>I know that you have talked about CRUSADERS, but dude - in almost every post you have made about this, you have insinuated that specially the SK's are OP. Also the fact that you made this post in the SK forum and not the general forum or even the paladin forum, clears it up.IMO this game will always have flaws regarding pvp, since it was not originally designed for this. However, I do think that there are more OP in high end pvp / pve than crusaders. Take a good look at end-game wardens i.eI do not know which of us you have been adressing the last comment to, but before you begin firing off random rants/flames or even think that you know what expertise ppl have or do not have, then take a chill pill, stand back and think "could it be, that this guy actually knows what hes saying, and that I am wrong? Or perhaps he knows something that I can learn from?" ... instead of just, as said, write stuff like "Also, since you seem to be unaware of how the PVP servers work, I will enlighten you. On PVP servers they can adjust anything for PVP ONLY. These changes are shown when you click the little "PVP" checkbox in the description"..And as a last note: I do believe that wardens are more OP than crusaders are. I've seen wardens tank two freakin grps of equal lvl players, solo. And it still took a while to get the warden down. Now, dont come with the usual bs that most ppl do: The players must have sucked... - it's a fact that wardens are OP in end-game pvp. So if anyone needs an adjustment, it would be them. Oh - and before ppl come and say "they are healers, they are supposed to survive"...uhm...yeah? Tanks are too? Crusaders are too? But I have yet to see someone who can easy fend off 2 grps of equal lvl players, like wardens can <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />

Landiin

06-16-2010, 11:35 AM

I agree wardens are beasts but you can not deny crusaders are beasts them selves. Both are OP in PVP and one just as much in PVE.I and most could care less about PVP any ways, get classes straitened out in PVE what the game is made for then worry about them in PVP standings.

Netty

06-16-2010, 01:00 PM

<cite>lollipop wrote:</cite><blockquote>Plea for balance lol yeah right. The tone down zerkers, and temps, and also assassins ....plea ....whatever. its a request to make alts on diffrent accts more powerful...btw zerkers can solo consvetory to with proc heals. Felecia does it all the time my zerker. I also used to have a SK Keila who was also OP and a paly who was eh i preffered the zerker or SK. Tanks are more balanced now then ever cept guards need some help and monk. All others are gtg. Sorry no top tanks anymore be it guards, sk or zerkers or whatever. Tho monks and bruisers never had thier chance =(.</blockquote>Pls record a video of you doing that with a zerk with only proc heals and post it.

Orthureon

06-16-2010, 02:26 PM

<cite>Hallowell@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I know that you have talked about CRUSADERS, but dude - in almost every post you have made about this, you have insinuated that specially the SK's are OP. Also the fact that you made this post in the SK forum and not the general forum or even the paladin forum, clears it up.Perhaps, because I am a Shadowknight which I play far more than my Paladin. I know exactly how OP they are, for Paladins I gauge it against my good friend that when we had nearly equal gear, AA, etc he was just as powerful if not more. Look at my signature. I do agree I should have posted this in the General Fighters thread, but it is too late now.IMO this game will always have flaws regarding pvp, since it was not originally designed for this. However, I do think that there are more OP in high end pvp / pve than crusaders. Take a good look at end-game wardens i.eI know very well how overpowered Wardens are, as is pretty much any healer. Any well played healer is nearly invincible. Wardens just shine more vs entire groups due to their quick casting heals. But if you compare the 1v1 power of say an "Inquisitor vs Class X" against a "Warden vs Class X" the Inquisitor would certainly win.I do not know which of us you have been adressing the last comment to, but before you begin firing off random rants/flames or even think that you know what expertise ppl have or do not have, then take a chill pill, stand back and think "could it be, that this guy actually knows what hes saying, and that I am wrong? Or perhaps he knows something that I can learn from?" ... instead of just, as said, write stuff like "Also, since you seem to be unaware of how the PVP servers work, I will enlighten you. On PVP servers they can adjust anything for PVP ONLY. These changes are shown when you click the little "PVP" checkbox in the description"..Bruener does not play on a PVP server, nor did he make any reference to understanding that everything can be balanced for PVP ONLY. My reference???Bruener: "Please take it to the PvP boards if you have a problem with PvP issues. Most of us didn't sign up to play EQ2 to have it balanced against PvP....the game just isn't designed for it." If he knew this then he would not have made that comment, which showed that he lacked the knowledge. Also, just a friendly reminder to see who I was talking to look above the Quotation field, it says (in this example); Bruener wrote: then nests the contents of his post.And as a last note: I do believe that wardens are more OP than crusaders are. I've seen wardens tank two freakin grps of equal lvl players, solo. And it still took a while to get the warden down. Now, dont come with the usual bs that most ppl do: The players must have sucked... - it's a fact that wardens are OP in end-game pvp. So if anyone needs an adjustment, it would be them. Oh - and before ppl come and say "they are healers, they are supposed to survive"...uhm...yeah? Tanks are too? Crusaders are too? But I have yet to see someone who can easy fend off 2 grps of equal lvl players, like wardens can <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />Same comment as above:I know very well how overpowered Wardens are, as is pretty much any healer. Any well played healer is nearly invincible. Wardens just shine more vs entire groups due to their quick casting heals. But if you compare the 1v1 power of say an "Inquisitor vs Class X" against a "Warden vs Class X" the Inquisitor would certainly win.</blockquote>

Daalilama

06-18-2010, 10:59 AM

I will attest that Daemien plays his sk on a regular basis and as far as I know he does not have a warrior alt....as for his opins people must decide for themselves....

Shassia

12-15-2010, 11:03 AM

If I may, I'd like to offer a different viewpoint.I am not a powergamer. I prefer to RP and quest and solo/duo. I have no raid gear whatsoever. As a result, these claims of, "well, I can take three 95^^^ at once as an SK!" may be true in your case but certainly not for me. I have to recruit help even for one 90^^^ mob, otherwise I will get dismantled.Sometimes on these message boards we tend to lose a broader perspective, because the powergamers, the people who play at a very high skill level, tend to dominate message boards like these over the casual player. But truth be told, there's a lot of us around. I don't know the actual figures enough to know if we are the majority, but I do know that I'm far from being alone.Applying the nerf hammer to SKs based on what the best-of-the-best can do is foolish. Implying that any SK with solo/quested gear can routinely tackle multiple heroic ^^^ mobs of the same level is simply incorrect unless you mentored down. Some people have been powergaming for so long, I guess, that they lose sight of how it used to be, or how it still is for the rest of us. Nerfing my drains or AA abilities as an SK is totally unnecessary from where I'm standing.Regardless, I always find it better to apply love to the classes that need it rather than trying to tear others down.Edit: Blah, sorry for the necro. I keep forgetting that the lesser-used forums have some very old posts on the first page.

Sir Darrack

12-15-2010, 03:06 PM

The Root cause of all this crap is PvPer, simple as that.And before you start dont slag me off that i know nothing about pvper just because im not a hardcore player killer in EQ2. I played WOW for 3 years from when it first went live and Pvper was my life up until it was dumbed down to Xbox arcade style rubbish for 5 year olds.There is a fact that nobody can disagree with - EQ2 is and was always designed as PVE.Lets head back to the old days of EQ1 when PvPer only exsisted in one small arena (prizes for those that remember it!).There was no class balance, some classes could solo all day long (druids for one) others like the Paladins were forced to wander the planes looking for undead mobs, grinding hundreds just to see the AA bar move 2mm - i was one of them.Was i bothered? did i care other classes were more overpowered? no because the game was designed for groups and each class had its role in life - it was a social game!When EQ2 started there was no PvPer, no one cared about balance back then either and to be honest most PVE players still dont care.PvPer Kills PVE games - its a fact! look at WOW, soon as the forums are battered with posts from crying kids shouting Nerf the class that got the best love in the latest patch the developers panic about bad press and swing the nerf bat again, then the cycle repeats depending which classes players complain loud enough that they have been shafted. The developers couldnt care less the impact it has on the PVE raiding side of the game.Classes should all be able to solo if they want and i think Sony have made that possible to a degree in EQ2 but why should all classes be equal? I would expect to get murdered by a caster at range, but up close?If we are not carefull the unique propertys of some classes will disolve away to nothingness, all classes will be balanced so much that thier origonal roles will be lost in the mist of time. PvPer in EQ2 is fun, couldnt resist trying even though i resolved never to go back to that grind feste of a life again, BUT a game that trys to achieve both PVE and PVP balance will only suffer because of it and niether population will be happy.You simply cant have a game that can do both well, we have seen that already, Blizzard failed big time.Be safe

Gilasil

12-16-2010, 01:11 AM

After struggling with a bruiser for years I decided to go to the dark side and roll an SK.What a refreshing change. Thanks to appearance slots my SK even looks like a brawler.Either bruisers are horribly underpowered or SKs are horribly overpowered. Take your pick. Looking at the population figures I think I know which one it is.At this point I just don't care anymore. SoE couldn't balance a game with one class. From what I've seen I don't think they really give a diddly squat. I've got a brawler and a crusader, and if warriors ever get to be FOTM I'll roll one of them. I'll just play whatever those idiot devs decide to make the FOTM this year.In the end though, the real problem is not what tank is on top and what tank is on bottom. The real problem is the fact that roughly 25% of toons played are fighters, but most raids only need ~2. That's the real imbalance; it's been a problem for years and SoE hasn't tried very hard to fix it. I doubt they'll start now. The fact that they've let this go on for years without any real effort to change it is the surest indication that SoE just doesn't care. They'll mouth the words and pretend to care, but the real indication is what effort they put into fixing hte problem and the answer is not much.So I'll just keep playing the FOTM tank until a non-SoE MMO comes along I can stick with. Then I'm outta here.

Orthureon

12-18-2010, 02:26 PM

<cite>Sir Darrack wrote:</cite><blockquote>The Root cause of all this crap is PvPer, simple as that.And before you start dont slag me off that i know nothing about pvper just because im not a hardcore player killer in EQ2. I played WOW for 3 years from when it first went live and Pvper was my life up until it was dumbed down to Xbox arcade style rubbish for 5 year olds.There is a fact that nobody can disagree with - EQ2 is and was always designed as PVE.Lets head back to the old days of EQ1 when PvPer only exsisted in one small arena (prizes for those that remember it!).There was no class balance, some classes could solo all day long (druids for one) others like the Paladins were forced to wander the planes looking for undead mobs, grinding hundreds just to see the AA bar move 2mm - i was one of them.Was i bothered? did i care other classes were more overpowered? no because the game was designed for groups and each class had its role in life - it was a social game!When EQ2 started there was no PvPer, no one cared about balance back then either and to be honest most PVE players still dont care.PvPer Kills PVE games - its a fact! look at WOW, soon as the forums are battered with posts from crying kids shouting Nerf the class that got the best love in the latest patch the developers panic about bad press and swing the nerf bat again, then the cycle repeats depending which classes players complain loud enough that they have been shafted. The developers couldnt care less the impact it has on the PVE raiding side of the game.Classes should all be able to solo if they want and i think Sony have made that possible to a degree in EQ2 but why should all classes be equal? I would expect to get murdered by a caster at range, but up close?If we are not carefull the unique propertys of some classes will disolve away to nothingness, all classes will be balanced so much that thier origonal roles will be lost in the mist of time. PvPer in EQ2 is fun, couldnt resist trying even though i resolved never to go back to that grind feste of a life again, BUT a game that trys to achieve both PVE and PVP balance will only suffer because of it and niether population will be happy.You simply cant have a game that can do both well, we have seen that already, Blizzard failed big time.Be safe</blockquote>You do realize 99% of the time when something is changed it is due to PVE players correct? I am sorry but PVE players cry just as much as us PVPers and they have a much louder voice since there are so many. For instance, did you know that many sweeping changes happened very quickly to PVP gear when BGs were introduced? These were things us PVPers were either used to, or were just sick of complaining about because nothing ever got changed.Now on to the main point... SKs can also solo zones, top the DPS parse on many occasions even in raids, hold aggro very easily, and take a hit nearly as well as a Guardian. I am sorry if you are blinded by the fact that your class is truly overpowered. Heck even when under geared you can outperform other well played classes with superior gear to your own.I do understand no one wants their own class nerfed (well except me). The heal crit nerf mainly hurt Paladins. I still do nearly the same healing, except now my blessing doesn't crit for 2-2.5k per trigger.