Sublime Dagger vs. Sublime Rod.

[acctlc]

<p>So my question is why would a summoner pay 150 raid seals for a weapon that increases the melee double attack of their pet.  No melee pet can survive in a raid for crying out loud.  Compared side to side I can't see how a summoner would choose the dagger over the sublime rod for that many seals.  The 5 crit chance increase is nice..but there is a Powerflux 5 legendary item that drops from an instance...  The effect on this should be changed to effect the mage pet, which is what every raiding summoner uses.  Otherwise the rod is the way to go for all mages and your itemization time on this was wasted.</p>

[thog_zork]

<p>+1</p>

[Garlin1]

<p>100% agree.  To many wasted "pet" buffs on raid items.  Get creative.  You gave extra % chance to poison, autoattack, range attack, etc.  Come on!</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>I probably wouldn't wear either Sublime weapon over my Ley Line Sunrod.</p>

[acctlc]

<p>^^^ This. While I don't necessarily agree the sunrod is always the way to go there is no way a 150 seal raid weapon shouldn't wow someone using a 40 mark purchaseable weapon. Also I think these weapons in general were toned down just a little bit too much. In the complete absence of better itemized raid weapon drops/traditional weapon questline, they should have been left a little nicer (some crit bonus and potency intact).</p>

[Korrupt]

<p>the nerfs were way too harsh. The summoner weapon sucked even in it's original form but until they allow shared stats and adjust the summoner class accordingly to compensate then we'll always see issues like that. The rod however was about right value wise where it was, the proc could have been toned down some, but taking away the crit bonus and potency makes this new weapon completely useless.</p>

[Banditman]

<p>A further concern:</p><p>We have been told numerous times that "Pet Effects" do not come from the "budget" of an item.  However, in this example we see clear evidence to the contrary.</p><p>If, as we have been told, Pet Effects are not budgeted, then the Sublime Dagger, the "Summoner" weapon, is missing it's 150 Ability Mod, and it's proc.</p><p>We were told that we would not be forced to choose between ourselves and our pet, yet here is a very clear example of being forced to do just that.</p>

[Jesdyr]

<p>I just want to know why we cant see a mage weapon with decent melee stats.</p>

[EvilAstroboy]

<p><cite>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I just want to know why we cant see a mage weapon with decent melee stats.</p></blockquote><p>This.  Why do our mythical / enervated weapons have better melee stats than new tier raid drops? Its just another kick in the balls for Illusionists.</p>

[acctlc]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>A further concern:</p><p>We have been told numerous times that "Pet Effects" do not come from the "budget" of an item.  However, in this example we see clear evidence to the contrary.</p><p>If, as we have been told, Pet Effects are not budgeted, then the Sublime Dagger, the "Summoner" weapon, is missing it's 150 Ability Mod, and it's proc.</p><p>We were told that we would not be forced to choose between ourselves and our pet, yet here is a very clear example of being forced to do just that.</p></blockquote><p>Yes this too, I'd love to know why summoner oriented gear STILL has no ability mod.  None of the armor pieces...now the weapon.  I mean really guys..its getting old to have to choose between ability mod bottoming out to nothing or getting a piece without any pet foci.</p>

[Daine]

<p>I'd really like to see these new supposedly awesome mage weapons have better rating than my level 80 converted mythical.  Lots of coercers and illusionists are meleeing when possible (with the STR line) to help close the large dps gap between them and the other mages/bards, but there have been no new weapons with decent damage spreads/delays for us.  The only mage weapon I've seen with a higher damage rating is Gravity, Staff of El'Arad which is a two hander, so the STR line bonuses don't apply.  There's a summoner weapon and a sorc-friendly weapon, would like to see something for us chanters too even if you just modify the sorc one to have a better damage spread.</p>

[Korrupt]

<p>If you modify the sorc weapon just to have better melee with no sacrifice you may as well get rid of the sorc weapon lol. Sorces are meleeing more often now as well to close the gap on dps gained from 100% procs that the fast casters have.</p>

[EvilAstroboy]

<p><cite>Korrupt@Najena wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you modify the sorc weapon just to have better melee with no sacrifice you may as well get rid of the sorc weapon lol. Sorces are meleeing more often now as well to close the gap on dps gained from 100% procs that the fast casters have.</p></blockquote><p>Cool story bro! Must be pretty hard to keep that 30-40k gap that sorcerors have over Illusionists.</p><p>You are right though, they should restrict the normal melee damage weapons to enchanters so that Sorcerors and Summoners cant use them.</p>

[Korrupt]

<p>If your sorces have that much of a gap over your chanters you either have absoluetly terrible chanters, or bards that dont know how to use VC and sorces or summoners that dont cast their 100% procs. A raidwide gap between sorces and chanters when both are played well is about 8-10k at most, that sounds about right for a t1 dps to utility gap.</p><p>I agree we need better melee stats though. Since mechanics are allowing procs to happen off any kind of damage then all casters should be meleeing whenever they can. No longer is jousting a scout problem, maybe we should cast on the run as well. But I guess chanter crying and mage in general crying should be left to other threads and we can leave it as we need better melee stats on mage weapons.</p>

[EvilAstroboy]

<p>On most named fights I am doing 25k as an Illusionist while our Sorcerors, Summoners and Assassin are hitting 50-60k. Even our bards are getting 30k and the Fury can get 25k while healing.</p><p>If your Illusionists are doing 45k+ id love to see them post a few parses and know what their magical secret is.  No Illusionists on these forums or others seem to be posting higher than mid-20s. Also VC got nerfed in tonights patch, you wont be seeing 120k procs from it anymore which makes fast attacks even less viable. </p><p>But knowing the limitations of both classes (hell I have an alt warlock in BG gear who can double my raid geared Illys damage using Adept 3s) there are only two logical explainations:</p><ul><li>You just arent very good at playing this game compared to your enchanters.</li><li>You are telling lies to further your own agenda.</li></ul>

[Korrupt]

<p>look at zonewides not specific encounters. The 40k gap is an exaggeration if you average it out for a whole zone. After lookin at some saved parses I did undervalue the zw gap some but it's still not 40k. Our gaps look to be about 15k on average, more on named and less on trash. So chanters could use a little boost, but lets be realistic with our numbers and keep in mind that chanters aren't a t1 dps class. They are the casting version of bards and appear in line with them on the parse.</p>

[EvilAstroboy]

<p>I looked at your parses on Flames and I can see why you are unaware of the class imbalance. I prefer to base it on the classes' maximum potential.</p><p>ZW the gap tends to be higher, since parses are inflated by AEs on trash and Illusionists have none.</p><p>The problem is that Illusionists arent in line with bards. Bards have better utility AND better DPS. Illusionists should be sitting somewhere between bards and summoners, but they arent.</p>

[Korrupt]

<p>Parses from the beginning of an expansion shouldnt be your baseline, try to use up to date information. Top sorces are getting zw's in the 40's, we compare parses quite a bit, not always on message boards. So to make your bad math accurate illies would have to be parsing less than 10k, it's an exaggeration and you've been called on it. If you're being honest and the best you can possibly get out of any fight is 25k on an illy even currently, then you are not getting enough out of your class. Don't look at good sorces and compare to a mediocre illy, like you said, take the maximum potential of both classes.</p>

[EvilAstroboy]

<p>Our warlock is outperforming you then, as he does about 50k zw up until the hard modes.</p><p>As for 25k not reaching the full potential of Illusionist, maybe, I still need some upgrades, but its not going to close the gap of 100%. Although I have not seen any other illusionists posting higher, except for one 45k fight from a russian server, and 15k of that was from VC back when it was bugged. If your illusionists are putting out higher numbers tell them to do some posts.</p><p>I got 30k on Maalus last night, but our T1 DPS were doing double that, and the SK MT and bards were doing 35k. So can I go higher? Sure, but our T1 dps are going higher at a faster rate.  The itemisation in SF is terrible for Illusionists. Everyone has max cast speed now, potency and crit bonus do next to nothing all for our small damage skills - our two highest damage skills are bewilderment and master strike which are shared by all mages.</p>

[thog_zork]

<p>so back to the topic "sublime dagger" is really really weak ... much worser then heroic drops & merchant gear !</p><p>this need to be adressed and the item needs to be changed .. firrflyte stated on the beta boards that they know that scout pet is not viable and design no items for it ! yet what summoners get is a meele pet centric effect from a raid waepon !</p><p>this makes no sense at all ... maybe some confused spell doubleattack and doubleattack</p>

[Korrupt]

<p>Both mage weapons are extremely weak after the nerfs. Damage spreads have been increased across the board on all weapons which isn't a bad thing but FAR better for melee types than mages. Put the crit bonus back on the mage weapons.</p>

[acctlc]

<p>I really can't stress enough...40 mark legendary "Ley Line Sunrod" is better than your 150 seal Fabled raid bought weapon for summoners.  And as far as pet effect fabled weapons there is nothing else out there!  A link exists for Thundercaller weapon but no one can confirm where it drops which means its inaccessible to 99% of the game base longterm more than likely. The Illisaad's Control Rod is great situationally for pet surviveability but fact remains a mark weapon is better in most circumstances <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Possible Solutions:  Did you mean spell double attack?  This would make the weapon useable, but still less powerful than said Thundercaller I mentioned because it has 10% potency paired with spell double attack.  However considering no one knows where that comes from it may be super hard silly mode mob x and you want to reserve double attack for that crazy unobtainable weapon..fine.</p><p>Throw Powerflux V (you've already got the crit on there), Molten carnage 3 (from the nerfed 2), and Quicksilver blood V  on there.  You want to bring back the blue stats that you nerfed all to heaven like crit bonus/potency then take the pet effects down a notch or 2 but still keep them greater than your legendary mark weapon and instance drop weapons *rolls eyes*.  But side by side compared to Pestilential rain (a proc all game players seem to drool over rather unanymously) you're going to have to go the extra distance on the pet effects folks.</p><p>So to conclude, what I'd love to see on the pet weapon if not pet spell double attack, then all three PFV,MC3, QSV.  </p><p>Alternately give us 150 desperately needed spell mod on this weapon (I'd almost rather have this than the former potency stat with the egregious lack of spell mod on pet effect gear) and make the pet effects PV5, MC2 (or ditch MC altogether if your silly budgeting won't allow it), QS3-5.</p>

[thog_zork]

<p>could we have a little bit of feedback fot his please ?</p><p>The sublime rod a raid item which requires 150 raid shards is worse for the class it deisgned for then a 40 mark legendary "Ley Line Sunrod" could this please be looked at ?</p>