Guardian vs. SK. [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Shorcon

04-22-2010, 04:52 PM

Guardians are the anchor of any group of adventurers, providing leadership and protection for their allies. Combining durable armor with an impressive array of defensive skills, Guardians can remain standing after absorbing substantial amounts of physical damage from their enemies.Shadowknights are malevolent crusaders who wreak fear, hate and despair upon all who would oppose them. In addition to their formidable martial art skills, Shadowknights conjure dark magic with which they can enhance their abilities and drain away the life force of their enemies.Hrm........ Anything wrong with this description? Anything?

Rageincarnate

04-22-2010, 05:01 PM

seems like an sk has done the despair thingy on you.. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Notsovilepriest

04-22-2010, 05:01 PM

<cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guardians are the anchor of any group of adventurers, providing leadership and protection for their allies. Combining durable armor with an impressive array of defensive skills, Guardians can remain standing after absorbing substantial amounts of physical damage from their enemies.Shadowknights are malevolent crusaders who wreak fear, hate and despair upon all who would oppose them. In addition to their formidable martial art skills, Shadowknights conjure dark magic with which they can enhance their abilities and drain away the life force of their enemies.Hrm........ Anything wrong with this description? Anything?</blockquote>The fact you think descriptions of classes that were made so far back still mean something after the blurring of class lines that comes with every expansion. Thats what I think is wrong with themClasses and games evolve

AziBam

04-22-2010, 05:15 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guardians are the anchor of any group of adventurers, providing leadership and protection for their allies. Combining durable armor with an impressive array of defensive skills, Guardians can remain standing after absorbing substantial amounts of physical damage from their enemies.Shadowknights are malevolent crusaders who wreak fear, hate and despair upon all who would oppose them. In addition to their formidable martial art skills, Shadowknights conjure dark magic with which they can enhance their abilities and drain away the life force of their enemies.Hrm........ Anything wrong with this description? Anything?</blockquote>The fact you think descriptions of classes that were made so far back still mean something after the blurring of class lines that comes with every expansion. Thats what I think is wrong with themClasses and games evolve</blockquote>I was just going to go with....seems about right to me. I'd say more but judging by this and one or two other posts he made today I think the OP would literally start bludgeoning things if I did. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Notsovilepriest

04-22-2010, 05:18 PM

Seeing as this is in the BG section, Guardians hold PvP agro the best of all other tanks in PvP, but they don't quite have the survivability of the other tanks which is fine, it just requires the healer(S) to work harder. With Hold the Line, Moderate, and Improved Moderate, That is so much just passive taunt locking.

Darkonx

04-22-2010, 05:19 PM

<cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guardians are the anchor of any group of adventurers, providing leadership and protection for their allies. Combining durable armor with an impressive array of defensive skills, Guardians can remain standing after absorbing substantial amounts of physical damage from their enemies.Shadowknights are malevolent crusaders who wreak fear, hate and despair upon all who would oppose them. In addition to their formidable martial art skills, Shadowknights conjure dark magic with which they can enhance their abilities and drain away the life force of their enemies.Hrm........ Anything wrong with this description? Anything?</blockquote>Not really.Guardians are the most defensive/survivable tank. They have group HP buffs, and defensive buffs. They have the most defensive temps of any class in the game. They have more stoneskins and damage avoidance skills than anyone.Shadowknights have some CA's, but they also have spells. They get self-buffs and lifetaps, that do damage as well as heal them.Both classes are functioning in accordance with their original write ups. That is not ALL the classes can do, but, they can do those things.

Shorcon

04-22-2010, 06:59 PM

And here come the fake tanks to the defense. SK,Pali = hybrid. Monk, Bruiser = DPS. Zerk, Guard = Pure Tank.My point is this. Guardians are the last choice in pvp or pve for the simple fact that they have no survivability in pvp and nothing in agro management compared to SK in pve. Even zerk procs heal on all damage. Guardians can get dragoon and survive a million scouts but cant do anything to defend agains casters. 2 absorbs off tower of stone isnt more stoneskin that all the other tanks. I'd give up tower of stone for bloodlet/DM any day. I really hope soe moves things back to what they should be. Pure tanks rule in tanking. They sure dont now.

Shorcon

04-22-2010, 07:17 PM

<cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd say more but judging by this and one or two other posts he made today I think the OP would literally start bludgeoning things if I did. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>What comments would they be? I don't want nerf here. I want guardians to get the well deserved love that has been avoided in recent expacs. You would say that making the hybrid a better choice than a pure tank and things are fine. I would say pure tanks should be the premium choice in both pvp and pve. All other tank classes can avoid non melee damage but the guardian. Why is this? If you compare TS to the other absorb/mits again ill /wrists Darkonx.

Orthureon

04-22-2010, 08:13 PM

I personally think hitting a Guardian should be like hitting a brick wall. I definitely agree they need something more. I think they should have insane In-Combat HP Regen (ICHR). Perhaps each game tick they should regen something like 3000 HP, which I believe would be 500 passive HPS (3000/6)... that is if a game tick is 6s. This of course should be cut in half for PVP. I also believe Guardians should have access to heavier armor than plate. Usable by them ONLY!Crusaders need to be toned down, earlier I fought several different groups of Freeport players, my parse was usually around 1k DPS and 1k HPS. Lowest duration was around 2.5m vs around 3-4 people (their scouts were running mental breach a few times).

Notsovilepriest

04-22-2010, 09:13 PM

<cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote>I personally think hitting a Guardian should be like hitting a brick wall. I definitely agree they need something more. I think they should have insane In-Combat HP Regen (ICHR). Perhaps each game tick they should regen something like 3000 HP, which I believe would be 500 passive HPS (3000/6)... that is if a game tick is 6s. This of course should be cut in half for PVP. I also believe Guardians should have access to heavier armor than plate. Usable by them ONLY!Crusaders need to be toned down, earlier I fought several different groups of Freeport players, my parse was usually around 1k DPS and 1k HPS. Lowest duration was around 2.5m vs around 3-4 people (their scouts were running mental breach a few times).</blockquote>Incombat health regen isn't going to change it. A passive ward of ~800 in PvP(1k in PvE) which regens every 3-4 seconds would be far more useful

dellaripa

04-23-2010, 02:18 AM

How about make the 75% avoidance on my guardian avoid something say, more than 0%?That's a start.

Notsovilepriest

04-23-2010, 02:32 AM

Don't have your back to things? They avoid far more than 0%

Meirril

04-23-2010, 02:54 AM

<cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote>And here come the fake tanks to the defense. SK,Pali = hybrid. Monk, Bruiser = DPS. Zerk, Guard = Pure Tank.My point is this. Guardians are the last choice in pvp or pve for the simple fact that they have no survivability in pvp and nothing in agro management compared to SK in pve. Even zerk procs heal on all damage. Guardians can get dragoon and survive a million scouts but cant do anything to defend agains casters. 2 absorbs off tower of stone isnt more stoneskin that all the other tanks. I'd give up tower of stone for bloodlet/DM any day. I really hope soe moves things back to what they should be. Pure tanks rule in tanking. They sure dont now.</blockquote>If your guardian is acting independently of the rest of the group, he should get slaughtered. Simply put the entire guardian class was designed with the idea that they need priests around to heal them. Guardians have always been the tank class that needs support from other classes the most. That applies to PvP as much as it does PvE. Both kinds of crusader have a lot of self-healing abilities. While that isn't all that big of a deal in PvE it really stands out in PvP.Now if you want to take away those self-healing abilities that crusaders have, what do you propose replaces those abilties? If something gets taken away something needs to replace what is lost or your just nerfing SKs to make Guardians the next OP class?Now when every raid group starts passing up guardians for SKs as MT, then I'll conceed that your absolutely correct. Right now your just blowing this all out of proportion. Also, all 6 fighters should be acceptable choices for a tank, not just 2 of them.

Kota

04-23-2010, 03:35 AM

<cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote>And here come the fake tanks to the defense. SK,Pali = hybrid. Monk, Bruiser = DPS. Zerk, Guard = Pure Tank.My point is this. Guardians are the last choice in pvp or pve for the simple fact that they have no survivability in pvp and nothing in agro management compared to SK in pve. Even zerk procs heal on all damage.</blockquote>zerks only proc heals on melee hits.

Darkonx

04-23-2010, 05:10 AM

<cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd say more but judging by this and one or two other posts he made today I think the OP would literally start bludgeoning things if I did. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>What comments would they be? I don't want nerf here. I want guardians to get the well deserved love that has been avoided in recent expacs. You would say that making the hybrid a better choice than a pure tank and things are fine. I would say pure tanks should be the premium choice in both pvp and pve. All other tank classes can avoid non melee damage but the guardian. Why is this? If you compare TS to the other absorb/mits again ill /wrists Darkonx.</blockquote>Ok. I'll do this for you, just this once. I'll compare guardians to sk's in a pvp scenario.GUARDIAN->Defensive:Tower of Stone, 3 hit stoneskinReflexes, Tsunami vs meleeBlock, single hit avoidDefensive Minded reuse modifier+moreYour new SF endline for DMG reductionGroupwide temp for mitigationSentinel Sphere (group intercede+stoneskins)Sentry Watch, Group DIUnyielding Will, 100% Self-DI with no requirementsOffensive/Control effects:Improved Moderation - groupwide dehate (target lock in pvp?)50% when hit to target lock in pvp via your hold the line type buffReinforcement, every hit you do locks people onto you, AE or STST tauntTBAE (target based AE) taunt ((green))AOE melee threat (target lock as well? unsure, probably is)You can DW, thereby wearing 2 AE proc items, instead of just the one weapon a crusader can useSHADOWKNIGHT->Defensive:Furor, 15s of tsunami + reinforcement (long, long reuse time on it however)Hateful Respite, 1 hit stoneskin, similar to block, but on a 50% longer recast, also works vs spellsSelf-heals, which, don't get me wrong, are significant. Drain Vitae+Tap Veins heal for a decent amount. Reaver, 2.6% heal when we cast a hostile spell.Bloodletter, DI, IF allies are near, at the cost of allies healthOffensive:Furor, also listed in defensive, reinforcement on a 3 minute recastST tauntTBAE tauntSUMMARY(TL;DR) -> Guardians have far far more offensive/control effects, and very good defensive abilitys as well. True, your personal survivability is limited in terms of what you can do in comparison to a crusader. That being said, you rock the house in terms of controlling who the other team targets, and saving your group. I posted the PVP perspective, because this is in the BG forum.Edit: Added Sentry Watch as the name of the guardian group DI

Terron

04-23-2010, 06:39 AM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guardians are the most defensive/survivable tank. They have group HP buffs, and defensive buffs. They have the most defensive temps of any class in the game. They have more stoneskins and damage avoidance skills than anyone.</blockquote>You are arong about the survivability. Guardian's lack FD and escape, which are two of the best survivability tools in the game. They also have the worst healing abitility of any fighter. Solo Guardians are not in the same league as SKs regarding survivability.

EasternKing

04-23-2010, 06:45 AM

I have both a Guard and an SK and both do what they are supposed to do just fine.Guards are still and have always been the #1 Tank in the game for raiding, all these people screaming that guards are rubbish either need to reroll, or learn to play better.Guards have never EVER been the best solo tank, the best Heroic tank, they have never been the Tank for casuals.Guards are supposed to stand in front of the hardest hitting, most nasty raid mobs in eq2 and take it, and they do that head and shoulders above any other tank, the only time other tanks can do this is when they are over geared for said content.Guards are supposed to be the shining tip of a spear, the deadly you are going to die tip of a spear, the haft of said spear being made up of your healers and support class's, a well played guard with solid support is unstopable.And before anyone starts in raids i have been smoking crusaders and brawlers single target dps on my Guard, i have been tanking hardmode raid mobs and making it look like a walk in the park while doing so, i have been tanking heroic zones with no dirge with a warlock and conjy in group and locking 20+ mobs down on myself with them going full bore on the dps.If you can play eq2 well, guards are beastmode, they have always been beastmode, and will always be beastmode.The issue comes in poor players see other tanks seeming to be able to do things they cant, then its cry for nerfs time.If you dont enjoy BG's on a Guard, i am going to assume thats because you do not ensure you have the right tools to hand to ensure you can do your job,Yes crusaders can heal, so what?If i see any changes to PVE content because of BG issues it will be the end of the road for me and eq2.

Feldorm

04-23-2010, 08:02 AM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd say more but judging by this and one or two other posts he made today I think the OP would literally start bludgeoning things if I did. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>What comments would they be? I don't want nerf here. I want guardians to get the well deserved love that has been avoided in recent expacs. You would say that making the hybrid a better choice than a pure tank and things are fine. I would say pure tanks should be the premium choice in both pvp and pve. All other tank classes can avoid non melee damage but the guardian. Why is this? If you compare TS to the other absorb/mits again ill /wrists Darkonx.</blockquote>Ok. I'll do this for you, just this once. I'll compare guardians to sk's in a pvp scenario.GUARDIAN->Defensive:Tower of Stone, 3 hit stoneskinReflexes, Tsunami vs meleeBlock, single hit avoidDefensive Minded reuse modifier+moreYour new SF endline for DMG reductionGroupwide temp for mitigationSentinel Sphere (group intercede+stoneskins)Sentry Watch, Group DIUnyielding Will, 100% Self-DI with no requirementsOffensive/Control effects:Improved Moderation - groupwide dehate (target lock in pvp?)50% when hit to target lock in pvp via your hold the line type buffReinforcement, every hit you do locks people onto you, AE or STST tauntTBAE (target based AE) taunt ((green))AOE melee threat (target lock as well? unsure, probably is)You can DW, thereby wearing 2 AE proc items, instead of just the one weapon a crusader can useSHADOWKNIGHT->Defensive:Furor, 15s of tsunami + reinforcement (long, long reuse time on it however)Hateful Respite, 1 hit stoneskin, similar to block, but on a 50% longer recast, also works vs spellsSelf-heals, which, don't get me wrong, are significant. Drain Vitae+Tap Veins heal for a decent amount. Reaver, 2.6% heal when we cast a hostile spell.Bloodletter, DI, IF allies are near, at the cost of allies healthOffensive:Furor, also listed in defensive, reinforcement on a 3 minute recastST tauntTBAE tauntSUMMARY(TL;DR) -> Guardians have far far more offensive/control effects, and very good defensive abilitys as well. True, your personal survivability is limited in terms of what you can do in comparison to a crusader. That being said, you rock the house in terms of controlling who the other team targets, and saving your group. I posted the PVP perspective, because this is in the BG forum.Edit: Added Sentry Watch as the name of the guardian group DI</blockquote>All these skills you listed are essentially worthless! That is why guardians are gimped in BG. Despite all of these skills guardians in BG have half the dps of brawlers, sks and zerkers, half the survivability of all other tanks, and we are far behind all other tanks in heal parses despite having half a dozen FLs on proc gear. Our taunts are the same or worse than any other tank - 1 red and 1 green - the other skills you mentioned either useless or equivalent to what other tanks have. All the intercept type spells are useless since the guardian and target take loads of damage when using them. A paladins/sks heals will heal much more damage than what we intercept. Guardian taunts are crap since moderate doesn't do much and we have only 1 single target and 1 group taunt, putting them equal to or worse than every other tank. Other taunts like reinforcement are on a long refresh and are ineffective at taunting groups.A simple fix would be to get rid of other tanks like sk's, zerkers and pallys having ridiculous healing powers and make guardian protection skills more useful in BG i.e. get rid of all this "target only takes 50% of the damage but caster takes 86% damage!" which means that we actually increase damage taken by using them. And increase the moderate target lock to ~15%, so it actually has a chance of saving someone. I don't want dps or any heals, but as a guardian we should at least have better survivability or give something more to group survivability.Summary:DPS:Guardian < Every other tank (obvious)Heals:Guardian < Every other tank (obvious)Survivability:Guardian < Every other tank (zerkers sks pallys heal/stoneskin/whatever, brawlers have more mends/saves/tsunami/whatever)Taunts:Guardian <= Every other tank (No way of taunting people out of 15m range and moderate is uselss due to it being so weak)Oh and guardians have root which would be useful for stopping flag carriers for example, except that it is resisted or people have too many immunities. Instead it just allows us to kill the odd ranger who doesn't know what they are doing. Not sure if it is lag or whatever but sometimes when running on top of people you can use it and it will say no targets in range.

Valind

04-23-2010, 10:31 AM

<cite>Feldorm wrote:</cite><blockquote>Our taunts are the same or worse than any other tank - 1 red and 1 green - the other skills you mentioned either useless or equivalent to what other tanks have. All the intercept type spells are useless since the guardian and target take loads of damage when using them. A paladins/sks heals will heal much more damage than what we intercept. Guardian taunts are crap since moderate doesn't do much and we have only 1 single target and 1 group taunt, putting them equal to or worse than every other tank. Other taunts like reinforcement are on a long refresh and are ineffective at taunting groups.</blockquote>Stop talking right now. You have no idea.Guardians have 2 single-taunts. They also have 2 encounter taunts (3 if they get the additional hate on Seige). Moderate has a chance to taunt anyone who hits the peron it's on. Group moderate acts as a reactive target drop for everyone who isnt a tank in the group. It also procs a target lock on anyone who a tank hits. Hold the line is twice as effective as Offensive Defence. Stone Sphere does intercept from group members, but it also provides 6 stoneskins for the group and is just as likely to intercept 10 damage as 10,000.Reinforcement IS on a long recast, but so are Insolence and other tank's temps.This whole expansion has been crappy tanks QQing about problems that just aren't real.

AziBam

04-23-2010, 11:37 AM

<cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd say more but judging by this and one or two other posts he made today I think the OP would literally start bludgeoning things if I did. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>What comments would they be? I don't want nerf here. I want guardians to get the well deserved love that has been avoided in recent expacs. You would say that making the hybrid a better choice than a pure tank and things are fine. I would say pure tanks should be the premium choice in both pvp and pve. All other tank classes can avoid non melee damage but the guardian. Why is this? If you compare TS to the other absorb/mits again ill /wrists Darkonx.</blockquote>I pondered whether to bother replying to you at all because of:<cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote>And here come the fake tanks to the defense. SK,Pali = hybrid. Monk, Bruiser = DPS. Zerk, Guard = Pure Tank.</blockquote>I feel a bit sorry for you on this. What you HOPE would be the case for tank roles is not now, nor has it ever been, the intent of EQ2. This means you are pretty much destined to be disappointed. Does the pendulum swing from one tank class to another over the years? Sure. Are they always trying to make it so all the fighters can /gasp...tank? Absolutely. I'm not saying that the dev team have always been the most successful at this but it's clearly what they try to do.I'm generally fine with whatever tweaks any of the fighter classes might need to make or keep them fun and effective relative to their counterparts.Both crusaders and zerks seem pretty well rounded to me right now. I know diddly squat about brawlers. All I can say on them is that I have seen posts from brawlers saying they seem to tank well but just need a chance to prove it these days. I do know that for the hardest content, guards have been, are now, and probably always will be the go to tank. That's a niche none of the others will likely ever occupy. I also know that a friend of mine was initially reluctant to play his guard in BGs but found that he was very effective and had a lot of fun. Take it for what it's worth.Others have posted skills that guards have that you might want to revisit for BGs. Don't forget the pvp checkbox when examining abilities.

steelbadger

04-23-2010, 11:49 AM

The biggest problem that Guards have is that they are designed to take hits off raid mobs. Big Bashing Blasts every couple of seconds, in this situation ToS is useful, you get an appreciable duration of stuff being stopped. Last Man Standing is the same.But those have very limited viability in PvP where dmg is incoming fast and in smaller numbers. A single auto-attack from a scout will eat up all 4 stoneskins and do some extra dmg on top (1-2 attack, 1-2 DA, stonskins gone) thanks to procs. The same is true for Last Man Standing. Guardians don't have much that really scales well with enemy attack method, that places us nicely against hard hitting raid mobs but against the millions of stinging scouts they're worth approximately squat.It's also why Paladins, SKs and Zerkers have it a lot better. Percentage based heals, wards and lifetaps are always going to be better Vs the quick incoming dmg you recieve in BGs than our limited proc based effects.

Shorcon

04-23-2010, 01:02 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't have your back to things? They avoid far more than 0%</blockquote>I love the "your a noob. Nothings broken statements. Dragoon reflex avoid spell damage would be nice. Then again Zerks would get that too.

Darkonx

04-23-2010, 01:15 PM

<cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guardians are the most defensive/survivable tank. They have group HP buffs, and defensive buffs. They have the most defensive temps of any class in the game. They have more stoneskins and damage avoidance skills than anyone.</blockquote>You are arong about the survivability. Guardian's lack FD and escape, which are two of the best survivability tools in the game. They also have the worst healing abitility of any fighter. Solo Guardians are not in the same league as SKs regarding survivability.</blockquote>Abilitys to get you out of combat, AKA FD/Evac, are NOT survivability tools. They may be 'utility' but please, don't joke about survivability.Guardians have 800% more threat than I do as an SK, in battlegrounds. As I said, I have 3 abilitys, plus a 3 min recast reinforcement type spell. You have SO many more tools for holding people on you, it's not even really comparable. Your defensive abilitys were designed for raids, so yes, in BG's, you are a bit more likely to die if you don't have your healers with you. Guardians are VERY good for locking people on them, I'd even say they are either the best, or second best, with Zerkers being up there due to insolence. The warriors have nothing to QQ about in terms of taunts, or 'defending their group' via target locks. You die more easily, but the exchange is that you get 800% more taunt abilitys.

Shorcon

04-23-2010, 01:16 PM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote>And here come the fake tanks to the defense. SK,Pali = hybrid. Monk, Bruiser = DPS. Zerk, Guard = Pure Tank.My point is this. Guardians are the last choice in pvp or pve for the simple fact that they have no survivability in pvp and nothing in agro management compared to SK in pve. Even zerk procs heal on all damage. Guardians can get dragoon and survive a million scouts but cant do anything to defend agains casters. 2 absorbs off tower of stone isnt more stoneskin that all the other tanks. I'd give up tower of stone for bloodlet/DM any day. I really hope soe moves things back to what they should be. Pure tanks rule in tanking. They sure dont now.</blockquote>1. If your guardian is acting independently of the rest of the group, he should get slaughtered. Simply put the entire guardian class was designed with the idea that they need priests around to heal them. Guardians have always been the tank class that needs support from other classes the most. That applies to PvP as much as it does PvE. Both kinds of crusader have a lot of self-healing abilities. While that isn't all that big of a deal in PvE it really stands out in PvP.2. Now if you want to take away those self-healing abilities that crusaders have, what do you propose replaces those abilties? If something gets taken away something needs to replace what is lost or your just nerfing SKs to make Guardians the next OP class?Now when every raid group starts passing up guardians for SKs as MT, then I'll conceed that your absolutely correct. Right now your just blowing this all out of proportion. Also, all 6 fighters should be acceptable choices for a tank, not just 2 of them.</blockquote>1. Quit giving the noob speaches on how to play my guardian. Please for the love of god stop. This topic was started to shed light on the absolute FACT that pure tanks have been cast aside for easy button hybrids. Hybrids that can run into a raid of 12 and take virtualy no damage. The guardian cannot and the zerker cannot for nearly as long. FACT. I appreciate all the insight on how to play my guardian. I survive 50's - 0 anytime I can get a consistant healer in a battleground most games.2. The hybrid/dps tanks should never have gotten this outa control. Give nothing back. That simple. Take back the easy tank buttons and give nothing back. You as an sk hit some serious parses. That along with mit above all other dps classes should be enough to keep you happy. Take and give back? How bout this. When SK's were given love in the last 3 expacs, what did the gaurdian get that was even remotely comparable? Nothing. Not a thing.3. Not every raid group does but many do. SK shouldnt even be a choice as MT. They are hybrid. Thats my point. They are the top tank atm, and have been through RoK to now. I'm not asking you to conceed anything because your opinion is nothing standing next to FACT. Though guardians are in need of some pve love my biggest concern is in Battlegrounds. Pure tanks should be the main choice to lead into the fray. Not hybrid/dps. You would hate it if the pedistal created by easy buttons was ripped out from under you wouldnt you?

Shorcon

04-23-2010, 01:21 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd say more but judging by this and one or two other posts he made today I think the OP would literally start bludgeoning things if I did. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>What comments would they be? I don't want nerf here. I want guardians to get the well deserved love that has been avoided in recent expacs. You would say that making the hybrid a better choice than a pure tank and things are fine. I would say pure tanks should be the premium choice in both pvp and pve. All other tank classes can avoid non melee damage but the guardian. Why is this? If you compare TS to the other absorb/mits again ill /wrists Darkonx.</blockquote>Ok. I'll do this for you, just this once. I'll compare guardians to sk's in a pvp scenario.GUARDIAN->Defensive:Tower of Stone, 3 hit stoneskinReflexes, Tsunami vs meleeBlock, single hit avoidDefensive Minded reuse modifier+moreYour new SF endline for DMG reductionGroupwide temp for mitigationSentinel Sphere (group intercede+stoneskins)Sentry Watch, Group DIUnyielding Will, 100% Self-DI with no requirementsOffensive/Control effects:Improved Moderation - groupwide dehate (target lock in pvp?)50% when hit to target lock in pvp via your hold the line type buffReinforcement, every hit you do locks people onto you, AE or STST tauntTBAE (target based AE) taunt ((green))AOE melee threat (target lock as well? unsure, probably is)You can DW, thereby wearing 2 AE proc items, instead of just the one weapon a crusader can useSHADOWKNIGHT->Defensive:Furor, 15s of tsunami + reinforcement (long, long reuse time on it however)Hateful Respite, 1 hit stoneskin, similar to block, but on a 50% longer recast, also works vs spellsSelf-heals, which, don't get me wrong, are significant. Drain Vitae+Tap Veins heal for a decent amount. Reaver, 2.6% heal when we cast a hostile spell.Bloodletter, DI, IF allies are near, at the cost of allies healthOffensive:Furor, also listed in defensive, reinforcement on a 3 minute recastST tauntTBAE tauntSUMMARY(TL;DR) -> Guardians have far far more offensive/control effects, and very good defensive abilitys as well. True, your personal survivability is limited in terms of what you can do in comparison to a crusader. That being said, you rock the house in terms of controlling who the other team targets, and saving your group. I posted the PVP perspective, because this is in the BG forum.Edit: Added Sentry Watch as the name of the guardian group DI</blockquote>Good job. A few of the guardian spells you listed are not the correct names but you kinda got it. Why? Why are you posting me this list? Nothing here shows aa builds that make unrealistic hybrid survivability. Nothing here shows parse in bg were sk tops heal and kill parse. Nothing here shows whats happening on the battleground. The FACT is Guardian needs love and hybrids need nerf. FACT. I love how you included 0 aa build discussion on the SK side of this post.

Darkonx

04-23-2010, 01:23 PM

<cite>Feldorm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd say more but judging by this and one or two other posts he made today I think the OP would literally start bludgeoning things if I did. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>What comments would they be? I don't want nerf here. I want guardians to get the well deserved love that has been avoided in recent expacs. You would say that making the hybrid a better choice than a pure tank and things are fine. I would say pure tanks should be the premium choice in both pvp and pve. All other tank classes can avoid non melee damage but the guardian. Why is this? If you compare TS to the other absorb/mits again ill /wrists Darkonx.</blockquote>Ok. I'll do this for you, just this once. I'll compare guardians to sk's in a pvp scenario.GUARDIAN->Defensive:Tower of Stone, 3 hit stoneskinReflexes, Tsunami vs meleeBlock, single hit avoidDefensive Minded reuse modifier+moreYour new SF endline for DMG reductionGroupwide temp for mitigationSentinel Sphere (group intercede+stoneskins)Sentry Watch, Group DIUnyielding Will, 100% Self-DI with no requirementsOffensive/Control effects:Improved Moderation - groupwide dehate (target lock in pvp?)50% when hit to target lock in pvp via your hold the line type buffReinforcement, every hit you do locks people onto you, AE or STST tauntTBAE (target based AE) taunt ((green))AOE melee threat (target lock as well? unsure, probably is)You can DW, thereby wearing 2 AE proc items, instead of just the one weapon a crusader can useSHADOWKNIGHT->Defensive:Furor, 15s of tsunami + reinforcement (long, long reuse time on it however)Hateful Respite, 1 hit stoneskin, similar to block, but on a 50% longer recast, also works vs spellsSelf-heals, which, don't get me wrong, are significant. Drain Vitae+Tap Veins heal for a decent amount. Reaver, 2.6% heal when we cast a hostile spell.Bloodletter, DI, IF allies are near, at the cost of allies healthOffensive:Furor, also listed in defensive, reinforcement on a 3 minute recastST tauntTBAE tauntSUMMARY(TL;DR) -> Guardians have far far more offensive/control effects, and very good defensive abilitys as well. True, your personal survivability is limited in terms of what you can do in comparison to a crusader. That being said, you rock the house in terms of controlling who the other team targets, and saving your group. I posted the PVP perspective, because this is in the BG forum.Edit: Added Sentry Watch as the name of the guardian group DI</blockquote>All these skills you listed are essentially worthless! That is why guardians are gimped in BG. Despite all of these skills guardians in BG have half the dps of brawlers, sks and zerkers, half the survivability of all other tanks, and we are far behind all other tanks in heal parses despite having half a dozen FLs on proc gear. Our taunts are the same or worse than any other tank - 1 red and 1 green - the other skills you mentioned either useless or equivalent to what other tanks have. All the intercept type spells are useless since the guardian and target take loads of damage when using them. A paladins/sks heals will heal much more damage than what we intercept. Guardian taunts are crap since moderate doesn't do much and we have only 1 single target and 1 group taunt, putting them equal to or worse than every other tank. Other taunts like reinforcement are on a long refresh and are ineffective at taunting groups.A simple fix would be to get rid of other tanks like sk's, zerkers and pallys having ridiculous healing powers and make guardian protection skills more useful in BG i.e. get rid of all this "target only takes 50% of the damage but caster takes 86% damage!" which means that we actually increase damage taken by using them. And increase the moderate target lock to ~15%, so it actually has a chance of saving someone. I don't want dps or any heals, but as a guardian we should at least have better survivability or give something more to group survivability.Summary:DPS:Guardian < Every other tank (Can be almost on par with time invested getting gear)Survivability:Guardian < Every other tank (zerkers sks pallys heal/stoneskin/whatever, brawlers have more mends/saves/tsunami/whatever) (In BG's, yes, you are less survivable. However, in raids, you are the MOST survivable, it's just based on how Guardian abilitys work)Taunts:Guardian >>> Every other tank (No way of taunting people out of 15m range and moderate is uselss due to it being so weak) (No tank has a way to do that, and you have SO much more threat than other tanks it's not even comparable)Oh and guardians have root which would be useful for stopping flag carriers for example, except that it is resisted or people have too many immunities. Instead it just allows us to kill the odd ranger who doesn't know what they are doing. Not sure if it is lag or whatever but sometimes when running on top of people you can use it and it will say no targets in range.</blockquote>Guardians are very, very good. I don't understand why you want to be the best at EVERYTHING.

Shorcon

04-23-2010, 01:23 PM

<cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guardians are the most defensive/survivable tank. They have group HP buffs, and defensive buffs. They have the most defensive temps of any class in the game. They have more stoneskins and damage avoidance skills than anyone.</blockquote>You are arong about the survivability. Guardian's lack FD and escape, which are two of the best survivability tools in the game. They also have the worst healing abitility of any fighter. Solo Guardians are not in the same league as SKs regarding survivability.</blockquote>Solo Guardians? You cant kill a decently played SK with a healer. You can Kill a decently played Guardian with a healer.

Shorcon

04-23-2010, 01:26 PM

<cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have both a Guard and an SK and both do what they are supposed to do just fine.Guards are still and have always been the #1 Tank in the game for raiding, all these people screaming that guards are rubbish either need to reroll, or learn to play better.Guards have never EVER been the best solo tank, the best Heroic tank, they have never been the Tank for casuals.Guards are supposed to stand in front of the hardest hitting, most nasty raid mobs in eq2 and take it, and they do that head and shoulders above any other tank, the only time other tanks can do this is when they are over geared for said content.Guards are supposed to be the shining tip of a spear, the deadly you are going to die tip of a spear, the haft of said spear being made up of your healers and support class's, a well played guard with solid support is unstopable.And before anyone starts in raids i have been smoking crusaders and brawlers single target dps on my Guard, i have been tanking hardmode raid mobs and making it look like a walk in the park while doing so, i have been tanking heroic zones with no dirge with a warlock and conjy in group and locking 20+ mobs down on myself with them going full bore on the dps.If you can play eq2 well, guards are beastmode, they have always been beastmode, and will always be beastmode.The issue comes in poor players see other tanks seeming to be able to do things they cant, then its cry for nerfs time.If you dont enjoy BG's on a Guard, i am going to assume thats because you do not ensure you have the right tools to hand to ensure you can do your job,Yes crusaders can heal, so what?If i see any changes to PVE content because of BG issues it will be the end of the road for me and eq2.</blockquote>So?

Darkonx

04-23-2010, 01:29 PM

<cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote>And here come the fake tanks to the defense. SK,Pali = hybrid. Monk, Bruiser = DPS. Zerk, Guard = Pure Tank.My point is this. Guardians are the last choice in pvp or pve for the simple fact that they have no survivability in pvp and nothing in agro management compared to SK in pve. Even zerk procs heal on all damage. Guardians can get dragoon and survive a million scouts but cant do anything to defend agains casters. 2 absorbs off tower of stone isnt more stoneskin that all the other tanks. I'd give up tower of stone for bloodlet/DM any day. I really hope soe moves things back to what they should be. Pure tanks rule in tanking. They sure dont now.</blockquote>1. If your guardian is acting independently of the rest of the group, he should get slaughtered. Simply put the entire guardian class was designed with the idea that they need priests around to heal them. Guardians have always been the tank class that needs support from other classes the most. That applies to PvP as much as it does PvE. Both kinds of crusader have a lot of self-healing abilities. While that isn't all that big of a deal in PvE it really stands out in PvP.2. Now if you want to take away those self-healing abilities that crusaders have, what do you propose replaces those abilties? If something gets taken away something needs to replace what is lost or your just nerfing SKs to make Guardians the next OP class?Now when every raid group starts passing up guardians for SKs as MT, then I'll conceed that your absolutely correct. Right now your just blowing this all out of proportion. Also, all 6 fighters should be acceptable choices for a tank, not just 2 of them.</blockquote>1. Quit giving the noob speaches on how to play my guardian. Please for the love of god stop. This topic was started to shed light on the absolute FACT that pure tanks have been cast aside for easy button hybrids. Hybrids that can run into a raid of 12 and take virtualy no damage. The guardian cannot and the zerker cannot for nearly as long. FACT. I appreciate all the insight on how to play my guardian. I survive 50's - 0 anytime I can get a consistant healer in a battleground most games.2. The hybrid/dps tanks should never have gotten this outa control. Give nothing back. That simple. Take back the easy tank buttons and give nothing back. You as an sk hit some serious parses. That along with mit above all other dps classes should be enough to keep you happy. Take and give back? How bout this. When SK's were given love in the last 3 expacs, what did the gaurdian get that was even remotely comparable? Nothing. Not a thing.3. Not every raid group does but many do. SK shouldnt even be a choice as MT. They are hybrid. Thats my point. They are the top tank atm, and have been through RoK to now. I'm not asking you to conceed anything because your opinion is nothing standing next to FACT. Though guardians are in need of some pve love my biggest concern is in Battlegrounds. Pure tanks should be the main choice to lead into the fray. Not hybrid/dps. You would hate it if the pedistal created by easy buttons was ripped out from under you wouldnt you?</blockquote>What you posted as 'FACT' is nothing other than your own opinion. Most guilds out there are still using Guardians as maintanks for a reason; because they're the best at breaking content.Shadowknights have been good for two expansions, TSO and SF, they were terrible in ROK, but again, we are getting away from the point. Guardians have more threat generation than anyone in battlegrounds, and more survivability than anyone in raid content.

Shorcon

04-23-2010, 01:36 PM

<cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd say more but judging by this and one or two other posts he made today I think the OP would literally start bludgeoning things if I did. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>What comments would they be? I don't want nerf here. I want guardians to get the well deserved love that has been avoided in recent expacs. You would say that making the hybrid a better choice than a pure tank and things are fine. I would say pure tanks should be the premium choice in both pvp and pve. All other tank classes can avoid non melee damage but the guardian. Why is this? If you compare TS to the other absorb/mits again ill /wrists Darkonx.</blockquote>I pondered whether to bother replying to you at all because of:<cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote>And here come the fake tanks to the defense. SK,Pali = hybrid. Monk, Bruiser = DPS. Zerk, Guard = Pure Tank.</blockquote>I feel a bit sorry for you on this. What you HOPE would be the case for tank roles is not now, nor has it ever been, the intent of EQ2. This means you are pretty much destined to be disappointed. Does the pendulum swing from one tank class to another over the years? Sure. Are they always trying to make it so all the fighters can /gasp...tank? Absolutely. I'm not saying that the dev team have always been the most successful at this but it's clearly what they try to do.I'm generally fine with whatever tweaks any of the fighter classes might need to make or keep them fun and effective relative to their counterparts.Both crusaders and zerks seem pretty well rounded to me right now. I know diddly squat about brawlers. All I can say on them is that I have seen posts from brawlers saying they seem to tank well but just need a chance to prove it these days. I do know that for the hardest content, guards have been, are now, and probably always will be the go to tank. That's a niche none of the others will likely ever occupy. I also know that a friend of mine was initially reluctant to play his guard in BGs but found that he was very effective and had a lot of fun. Take it for what it's worth.Others have posted skills that guards have that you might want to revisit for BGs. Don't forget the pvp checkbox when examining abilities.</blockquote>Your in preschool and this is college level convo. Been playing eq2 pre dof. Been playing guard from day one of dof. I know the guardians abilities.

Darkonx

04-23-2010, 01:54 PM

<cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guardians are the most defensive/survivable tank. They have group HP buffs, and defensive buffs. They have the most defensive temps of any class in the game. They have more stoneskins and damage avoidance skills than anyone.</blockquote>You are arong about the survivability. Guardian's lack FD and escape, which are two of the best survivability tools in the game. They also have the worst healing abitility of any fighter. Solo Guardians are not in the same league as SKs regarding survivability.</blockquote>Solo Guardians? You cant kill a decently played SK with a healer. You can Kill a decently played Guardian with a healer.</blockquote>Certain healers can kill an SK. Even if the SK is very well played, and extremely well geared.

Seolta

04-23-2010, 01:54 PM

I doubt alot of these people even play BG's.In reality Paly, Zerker, and Brawlers with stoneskins and stacked Deathsaves are out-surviving both Guards AND SK's on a daily basis.<ul><li>Unlike Zerker and Brawlers, Crusaders must PUSH BUTTONS to live.</li><li>Killing an SK is not hard at all if you know what you're doing.</li><li>Most SK's in BG are running around with Bloodletter down 90% of the time.</li></ul><div></div><div>SK's are a niche class. We were practically unplayable for years, then finally got some love.</div><div>Guardians are sadly looking more than ever like the spoiled babies that cry if they aren't best at everything.</div><div>Sorry you aren't best defensive tank in raid AND top tank on the parse every fight like you were in TSO. Don't take it out on us over silly imaginary prejudices in BG.</div>

AziBam

04-23-2010, 02:43 PM

<cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your in preschool and this is college level convo. Been playing eq2 pre dof. Been playing guard from day one of dof. I know the guardians abilities.</blockquote>/phew Glad we got that cleared up. I'm in preschool and you are in fantasyland. Roger that! I was quite concerned and feel much better now with that established.After all that time, it is a bit amazing you haven't realized that your dream of "pure tanks" isn't actually part of this game. That's still your core problem. Again, brace yourself for continued disappointment.You don't say what server your from but I'm going to take a leap and guess it's a PVE one (like me.) Heres a little secret, despite the fact that I've played my SK since shortly after the game launched, I still needed to do a comprehensive review of my gear, skills, AAs, and general playstyle for when I entered BGs. It's a whole different beast. Oh, and I'm still learning.I'm not actually trying to argue that Guards have the same BG survival skills that the other plate tanks do. I actually thought Steelbadger summed it up best here:<cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite><blockquote>The biggest problem that Guards have is that they are designed to take hits off raid mobs. Big Bashing Blasts every couple of seconds, in this situation ToS is useful, you get an appreciable duration of stuff being stopped. Last Man Standing is the same.But those have very limited viability in PvP where dmg is incoming fast and in smaller numbers. A single auto-attack from a scout will eat up all 4 stoneskins and do some extra dmg on top (1-2 attack, 1-2 DA, stonskins gone) thanks to procs. The same is true for Last Man Standing. Guardians don't have much that really scales well with enemy attack method, that places us nicely against hard hitting raid mobs but against the millions of stinging scouts they're worth approximately squat.It's also why Paladins, SKs and Zerkers have it a lot better. Percentage based heals, wards and lifetaps are always going to be better Vs the quick incoming dmg you recieve in BGs than our limited proc based effects.</blockquote>If you had come here with "Guards in BGs" rather than the very tired refrain of "Guardian vs. SK" and posted specific ideas for improvements against those "millions of stinging scouts" you might have had a better reception.

Kota

04-23-2010, 03:06 PM

<cite>Seolta@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I doubt alot of these people even play BG's.In reality Paly, Zerker, and Brawlers with stoneskins and stacked Deathsaves are out-surviving both Guards AND SK's on a daily basis.<ul><li>Unlike Zerker and Brawlers, Crusaders must PUSH BUTTONS to live.</li><li>Killing an SK is not hard at all if you know what you're doing.</li><li>Most SK's in BG are running around with Bloodletter down 90% of the time.</li></ul><div></div><div>SK's are a niche class. We were practically unplayable for years, then finally got some love.</div><div>Guardians are sadly looking more than ever like the spoiled babies that cry if they aren't best at everything.</div><div>Sorry you aren't best defensive tank in raid AND top tank on the parse every fight like you were in TSO. Don't take it out on us over silly imaginary prejudices in BG.</div></blockquote>i play a zerk, and when i get taunted, and see that it's a guardian, i feel a deep sense of relief. why ? because of all the fighters, they are the easiest to kill, and their dps is a jooooke. oh and i think you mean RoK when you talk about guardians being really good. ?i'm still going with sk's being ez mode. sk > pally > zerk > brawlers > guardian. i fought an sk in the x2 the other day, and i beat him in about 40 seconds. he was on my team the next round, and i saw that he had a whopping 16k hp unbuffed. i didn't bother inspecting him, because i can immagine the kind of gear that nets you 16k hp at lvl 90. certainly not the full set of toughness gear i was sporting.

Sleap

04-23-2010, 03:58 PM

Can we all agree to disagree? Crusaders (great at healing themselves, dps) Warriors (Great at taking hits, and dps if geared right) Brawlers (great at avoiding getting hit, and dps with 1 heal) These threads all end the same way, in the garbage can. Besides, im sure crusaders have all of their heals because they cannot take the amount of damage a Guardian can.

Darkonx

04-23-2010, 04:00 PM

Guardians will take less damage, but have no way to heal it. Crusaders will take more damage, and have a way to heal it. Berserkers will take less damage than both of them with adrenaline up, and have a way to heal it better than anyone.BG Gear in every slot is not ideal. Yes, it will give you quite a bit of hp, but, it isn't by ANY means the best. Some proc jewelery with ward procs, some stoneskin pants, etc, are much better for survivability.

Sleap

04-23-2010, 04:03 PM

Well they do make signets and potions so you can heal yourself.

Shorcon

04-23-2010, 04:05 PM

<cite>Seolta@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I doubt alot of these people even play BG's.In reality Paly, Zerker, and Brawlers with stoneskins and stacked Deathsaves are out-surviving both Guards AND SK's on a daily basis.<ul><li>Unlike Zerker and Brawlers, Crusaders must PUSH BUTTONS to live.</li><li>Killing an SK is not hard at all if you know what you're doing.</li><li>Most SK's in BG are running around with Bloodletter down 90% of the time.</li></ul><div></div><div>SK's are a niche class. We were practically unplayable for years, then finally got some love.</div><div>Guardians are sadly looking more than ever like the spoiled babies that cry if they aren't best at everything.</div><div>Sorry you aren't best defensive tank in raid AND top tank on the parse every fight like you were in TSO. Don't take it out on us over silly imaginary prejudices in BG.</div></blockquote>U sir must not play bg's much. SK is the easiest class to survive in bg by leaps and bounds. All but the guardian can survive well. My point is: why not the guardian also? Why cant the guardian spec survival anywere near as well as the other tank classes. Hybrid/dps classes should not out survive straight damage dealing brawls like the pure tanks.

Shorcon

04-23-2010, 04:09 PM

<cite>Primel@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can we all agree to disagree? Crusaders (great at healing themselves, dps) Warriors (Great at taking hits, and dps if geared right) Brawlers (great at avoiding getting hit, and dps with 1 heal) These threads all end the same way, in the garbage can. Besides, im sure crusaders have all of their heals because they cannot take the amount of damage a Guardian can.</blockquote>I can agree with some of this. Dont try to convince me that a guardian can dps in any gear because that is false. 100% false.Brawlers have FD and 2 full heals I believe if spec'd. They also have a Death Prevent. They also have tsunami. They also survive in bg for a looooooooong time with no healer on them and being bashed from all types of damage.You all are missing my actual reason for this post all together. Do any of you argue that guardians need some much needed love? I hear time and again that most raid guilds use guardians. Not so true atleast on my server. It's just so much easier to hold mobs with SK. I am not complaining about pve here though. I can hold mobs pve without to much trouble. It's battlegrounds the love is needed. Can you actualy argue against that?

AziBam

04-23-2010, 04:30 PM

<cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote> I am not complaining about pve here though. I can hold mobs pve without to much trouble. It's battlegrounds the love is needed. Can you actualy argue against that?</blockquote>No, I really wouldn't argue against that. For surviving the hits in the style that occur in PVP/BGs I think that's a legit concern relative to the other fighter classes.

Shorcon

04-23-2010, 04:40 PM

<cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote> I am not complaining about pve here though. I can hold mobs pve without to much trouble. It's battlegrounds the love is needed. Can you actualy argue against that?</blockquote>No, I really wouldn't argue against that. For surviving the hits in the style that occur in PVP/BGs I think that's a legit concern relative to the other fighter classes.</blockquote>And understand this also. I would be content with some guardian love. No nerf. Just love. Spread the love soe.On a side note. Soe is doing a commendable job with bg's considering what they have on their plate. My post about simplifying bgs by limiting all gear to bg gear only would allow for balanceing in the early stages. Like heirloom etc. add a tag to pve gear that says BG enabled. Take it slow allowing pve content into bg's. This will allow us to [Removed for Content] and adapt and /feedback realistic balance issues. Just a thought.

Brynhild

04-23-2010, 09:10 PM

It's fairly simple.. Guardians need a heal proc when they take damage. Guardians should have gotten the berserker heal proc on hit.Also I always thought it would be a good idea to make guardian's defensive stance give a chance for them to block spell attacks with their shield. It makes sense someone throws a fireball at you, you hold your shield up to block it. That would make them more viable as tanks in PVP, provided healers are around.

spudsmckenzie2

04-23-2010, 10:34 PM

guardians need 1 thing from what i have experienced in pvp and battlegrounds. soe developers need to raise the damage modifier on guardians for pvp only if that can be done. that way we can take a real beating before we die but not be overpowered.

Yimway

04-23-2010, 11:13 PM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>If your guardian is acting independently of the rest of the group, he should get slaughtered. Simply put the entire guardian class was designed with the idea that they need priests around to heal them. Guardians have always been the tank class that needs support from other classes the most. That applies to PvP as much as it does PvE. Both kinds of crusader have a lot of self-healing abilities. While that isn't all that big of a deal in PvE it really stands out in PvP.</blockquote>It's pretty obvious in PvE as well. My SK and Zerker can pull 20+ mobs and tank them effortlessly with little to no heals in heroic content.There isn't a particularly good answer. Certainly lowering heals on pvp by 50% or removing the ability to crit heals as tanks in pvp would be a start. I don't think when tanks were considered for pvp, the crazy self healing we see now was intended.But Guards need something as well. Their slightly higher mitigation numbers in the diminishing rewards curve isn't panning out to be worth anything at all, particularly in pvp content. The best sollution I have is changing their mitigation cap and curve to reflect a 90% max vs 80% max. But again, this has far reaching implications in pve. Giving more tanks more heals is the LAST [Removed for Content] thing anyone needs to consider. But its simple fact that an SK and Guard are going to be able to reach basically the same mit/avoidance numbers, and when one class has self heals and one doesn't in pvp, there becomes a tremendous gap.

Seolta

04-24-2010, 01:06 AM

The title of the OP should in fact read:"Guardians Suck in BG"Because to be fair, it's basically Guardian at the bottom of the heap(due to limited self hp replenishment/skins) then everyone else in whatever order your prejudices decide.The only problem with this thread is the fact that the OP singles out SK's and totally ignores the fact that Zerkers/Brawlers also way out-survive Guardians in BG.

Callim

04-24-2010, 03:12 AM

I can't believe the level of idiocy coming from some people in this thread.First, to the person who mentioned FD and Evac being amazing SK survivability skills...THEY DON'T WORK IN BATTLEGROUNDS. Let me repeat, THEY DON'T WORK, both are DISABLED.Second, to the people who claim Guards have limited taunts and die fast, FIND A HEALER. It boggles the mind to even see this, do you people not check the little pvp box to see what your abilities do???Listen carefully now, SK's are the only plate tank class to have no reactive taunt. Let me say this again, Guards have a 50 percent taunt on hit, zerks get a 20 percent, and amends is a reactive taunt for Paladins on a group member of their choice.SKs never got one, we had horrible, horrible, horrible agro issues before our mythical. Hell pre TSO we had horrible EVERYTHING.Why do guards die so fast and tanks that can heal don't in BGs? Because 9 times out of 10 you aren't near a healer, or they suck, period. Compounding that issue: Guards taunt SO WELL in pvp, that when they taunt, EVERYONE gets locked onto them...50% on incoming damage taunt lock = godly. So, you get more damage incoming to you then the other tanks, because you taunt better, and without the heals to back it up you go down FAST.Seriously, this insanity and jealously on the ability to stay alive for 20-30s while your group slowly gets killed around you needs to stop, because with a guard tanking, NO ONE should die before you! Stop complaining that your class is DOING ITS JOB WELL, and find a healer who doesn't suck to follow you around.Guards have more mit and avoidance than the other plate tanks, if you can't handle the heat that your far superior taunts bring you, then switch classes, otherwise make some healer friends who don't dislike you too much to follow you around.

Kota

04-24-2010, 06:25 AM

dude guardians suck in bg. don't try to church it up. be real. i bet you play an sk and wanna maintain status quo as the op ez mode. guardians are w/o a doubt the worst pvp class tank. if you bg with a guardian, PLEASE taunt me. please.

spudsmckenzie2

04-24-2010, 08:12 AM

stop drinking your own kool-aid tubby.....comparing a guard to an sk is like comparing a prop plane to a jet fighter. every time u proc a lifetap with that myth weapon of yours it procs a taunt zone wide on the people you are fighting so give it a rest about the taunts. pvp combat if we use tower of stone or last man standing they are done in like 5 secs together in pvp combat...not very effective if you ask me. if our healer gets stunned we go down like a bag of biittcchh whereas an sk can have an x2 beating on it and stay up for 30+. oh and btw were not idiots...these complaints arent just popping up for no reason.

Darkonx

04-24-2010, 01:29 PM

<cite>spudsmckenzie2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>stop drinking your own kool-aid tubby.....comparing a guard to an sk is like comparing a prop plane to a jet fighter. every time u proc a lifetap with that myth weapon of yours it procs a taunt zone wide on the people you are fighting so give it a rest about the taunts. pvp combat if we use tower of stone or last man standing they are done in like 5 secs together in pvp combat...not very effective if you ask me. if our healer gets stunned we go down like a bag of biittcchh whereas an sk can have an x2 beating on it and stay up for 30+. oh and btw were not idiots...these complaints arent just popping up for no reason.</blockquote>Actually. It doesn't. I wish it did, but, it doesn't. SK Mythical Buff in PVP currently does nothing.

Gungo

04-24-2010, 02:01 PM

Honestly they need to fix % based abilites from criting and doubling with potency.This is and will only become more massively imbalanced in the future. The fact my 50% self heal crits for over 100% heal. That every death save is now a complete heal. The bezerkers endline spell crits for 8-12% heal per hit.That reaver is procing for 4-6% is hugely imbalanced. Right now with stat consolidation and uncapped critbonus we have high geared players with 100% crit and 2.0-3.0 crit bonus and 100% potency.Thus making abilites that already had a built in progression mechanic overpowered. Even if you find current levels acceptable. What will happen when these players have 4.0-5.0+ crit bonus. Bezerkers procing heals for 20% of thier health on every hit. Shadowknights procing 6% heals on every hit. Eventually this mechanic has to be nerfed.Broken mechanics like this need to be fixed before any class balance on crusaders and zerkers is made. % based abilities should not increase w potency or crits.

Darkonx

04-24-2010, 02:07 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Honestly they need to fix % based abilites from criting and doubling with potency.This is and will only become more massively imbalanced in the future. The fact my 50% self heal crits for over 100% heal. That every death save is now a complete heal. The bezerkers endline spell crits for 8-12% heal per hit.That reaver is procing for 4-6% is hugely imbalanced. Right now with stat consolidation and uncapped critbonus we have high geared players with 100% crit and 2.0-3.0 crit bonus and 100% potency.Thus making abilites that already had a built in progression mechanic overpowered. Even if you find current levels acceptable. What will happen when these players have 4.0-5.0+ crit bonus. Bezerkers procing heals for 20% of thier health on every hit. Shadowknights procing 6% heals on every hit. Eventually this mechanic has to be nerfed.Broken mechanics like this need to be fixed before any class balance on crusaders and zerkers is made. % based abilities should not increase w potency or crits.</blockquote>You always post this. Reaver does not crit. I've told you this before.

spudsmckenzie2

04-24-2010, 03:19 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>spudsmckenzie2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>stop drinking your own kool-aid tubby.....comparing a guard to an sk is like comparing a prop plane to a jet fighter. every time u proc a lifetap with that myth weapon of yours it procs a taunt zone wide on the people you are fighting so give it a rest about the taunts. pvp combat if we use tower of stone or last man standing they are done in like 5 secs together in pvp combat...not very effective if you ask me. if our healer gets stunned we go down like a bag of biittcchh whereas an sk can have an x2 beating on it and stay up for 30+. oh and btw were not idiots...these complaints arent just popping up for no reason.</blockquote>Actually. It doesn't. I wish it did, but, it doesn't. SK Mythical Buff in PVP currently does nothing.</blockquote>aITEM -1020910188 1809167796:Seething Hatred/a- on any hit spell has 12% chance to cast seething hatred-when sk heals themselves with a lifetap, any pvp target will be forced to target them temporarily

Shorcon

04-24-2010, 04:23 PM

<cite>Tubby@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can't believe the level of idiocy coming from some people in this thread.First, to the person who mentioned FD and Evac being amazing SK survivability skills...THEY DON'T WORK IN BATTLEGROUNDS. Let me repeat, THEY DON'T WORK, both are DISABLED.Second, to the people who claim Guards have limited taunts and die fast, FIND A HEALER. It boggles the mind to even see this, do you people not check the little pvp box to see what your abilities do???Listen carefully now, SK's are the only plate tank class to have no reactive taunt. Let me say this again, Guards have a 50 percent taunt on hit, zerks get a 20 percent, and amends is a reactive taunt for Paladins on a group member of their choice.SKs never got one, we had horrible, horrible, horrible agro issues before our mythical. Hell pre TSO we had horrible EVERYTHING.Why do guards die so fast and tanks that can heal don't in BGs? Because 9 times out of 10 you aren't near a healer, or they suck, period. Compounding that issue: Guards taunt SO WELL in pvp, that when they taunt, EVERYONE gets locked onto them...50% on incoming damage taunt lock = godly. So, you get more damage incoming to you then the other tanks, because you taunt better, and without the heals to back it up you go down FAST.Seriously, this insanity and jealously on the ability to stay alive for 20-30s while your group slowly gets killed around you needs to stop, because with a guard tanking, NO ONE should die before you! Stop complaining that your class is DOING ITS JOB WELL, and find a healer who doesn't suck to follow you around.Guards have more mit and avoidance than the other plate tanks, if you can't handle the heat that your far superior taunts bring you, then switch classes, otherwise make some healer friends who don't dislike you too much to follow you around.</blockquote>[Removed for Content]. Very hefty post here big guy. Need some meds to slow that heart? Did you break your keyboard after you were done? Scream at your mom some?FD in all cases after a taunt group or single target causes oposition to loose target. After a tauntlock this is rediculous.I dont mind SK surviving through their proc heals a little while. I do mind SK's surviveing in an unkillable state while being bashed in a 20 on 1 brawl. They should die just as fast as the rest. Or atleast be killable. Even seeing a Zerk do this which happens all to often is plain unrealistic and a burden on the mind. People dont wanna see any class with god mode. Its not about the taunt killing us. Its about the fact that you dont need to worry about walking into a mob of 12 solo and I do. Im a pure tank. You my friend are not. I cant survive half as long or quarter as long as sk zerk pal monk bru.Mit and avoidance are nothing in comparison to what is going on in bg. With all our mit and avoid we should out live you in combat right? You act as if mit is helping your fight. We have more mit because we are pure tanks. I love the ring of that......Pure tank. Guard/ZerkJealousy? I am for well balanced game play. If thats jealousy then so be it. Lol.

Shorcon

04-24-2010, 04:28 PM

<cite>spudsmckenzie2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>stop drinking your own kool-aid tubby.....comparing a guard to an sk is like comparing a prop plane to a jet fighter. every time u proc a lifetap with that myth weapon of yours it procs a taunt zone wide on the people you are fighting so give it a rest about the taunts. pvp combat if we use tower of stone or last man standing they are done in like 5 secs together in pvp combat...not very effective if you ask me. if our healer gets stunned we go down like a bag of biittcchh whereas an sk can have an x2 beating on it and stay up for 30+. oh and btw were not idiots...these complaints arent just popping up for no reason.</blockquote>Well said. The problem is that a poorly played sk gets 30+ seconds. A well played sk is UNKILLABLE. Same with zerker.

Shorcon

04-24-2010, 04:35 PM

<cite>Brynhild wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's fairly simple.. Guardians need a heal proc when they take damage. Guardians should have gotten the berserker heal proc on hit.Also I always thought it would be a good idea to make guardian's defensive stance give a chance for them to block spell attacks with their shield. It makes sense someone throws a fireball at you, you hold your shield up to block it. That would make them more viable as tanks in PVP, provided healers are around.</blockquote>Is this the first solution post I have seen on here? It's hard to tell with all the fake tanks to the defense. Funny part is there are actualy sk's on this post that agree with me. I bet they could own any of the sk's that say I am full of it. I have been avid in support of guardians gettin some time of spell avoidance/absorbtion. Its a must have. Others heal through. We should absorb through. There are a ton of creative ways to do this. I also beleive we should get a spell reflect by proc. I would love to reflect a fusion some time. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Shorcon

04-24-2010, 04:39 PM

Keep in mind all who are following this post:There are many many misdirects being placed on this board to support not giving guardians some love.To this I say be observant in BG's. Know your tanks. See what they are doing. Know what tank you are killing. See how they survive. There are crap players that have no clue how to play and will die quik. Watch for the ones who dont die. Watch for the ones who solo 1-12. Come back and post after you see a few of these. Tell us what class it was. Dont post on a class who has a healer healing him. Just solo tanks running into packs of your team and not dieing. You will see.

Shorcon

04-24-2010, 05:33 PM

To those who think guardians are fine in their current state. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Enjoy.<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=477124">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=477124</a>

Notsovilepriest

04-24-2010, 06:05 PM

Guardians have too much taunting power that with not enough survivability tools for PvP. I don't get where you get off saying a guardian has low taunting ability like you have, that is just a moronic statement, but survivability, they should have a perma ward that regens every x seconds really. Thats all they need.

Notsovilepriest

04-24-2010, 06:06 PM

<cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote>To those who think guardians are fine in their current state. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />Enjoy.<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=477124">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=477124</a></blockquote>That proves nothing about the class, There are a lot of good classes on there that can do great things that are low, it just takes far more player skill to play them which turns into a lower population actually sticking to them.

Shorcon

04-24-2010, 06:22 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote>To those who think guardians are fine in their current state. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />Enjoy.<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=477124">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=477124</a></blockquote>That proves nothing about the class, There are a lot of good classes on there that can do great things that are low, it just takes far more player skill to play them which turns into a lower population actually sticking to them.</blockquote>Again a misdirect has been sent.

Darkonx

04-24-2010, 06:27 PM

<cite>spudsmckenzie2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>spudsmckenzie2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>stop drinking your own kool-aid tubby.....comparing a guard to an sk is like comparing a prop plane to a jet fighter. every time u proc a lifetap with that myth weapon of yours it procs a taunt zone wide on the people you are fighting so give it a rest about the taunts. pvp combat if we use tower of stone or last man standing they are done in like 5 secs together in pvp combat...not very effective if you ask me. if our healer gets stunned we go down like a bag of biittcchh whereas an sk can have an x2 beating on it and stay up for 30+. oh and btw were not idiots...these complaints arent just popping up for no reason.</blockquote>Actually. It doesn't. I wish it did, but, it doesn't. SK Mythical Buff in PVP currently does nothing.</blockquote>aITEM -1020910188 1809167796:Seething Hatred/a- on any hit spell has 12% chance to cast seething hatred-when sk heals themselves with a lifetap, any pvp target will be forced to target them temporarily</blockquote>I just linked that in game, the proc is 2.4 times/min, and does NOTHING in PVP.On any combat or spell hit this spell may cast Seething Hatred on target of attack. Lasts for 15 seconds. Triggers about 2.4 times per minute.300% of health regained from lifetaps will be applied as hate to engaged targets.Cannot be modified except by direct means.Damage over time spells will increase damage with each tick. Damage ceases to increase after 5 ticks.Cannot be modified except by direct means.Maybe the mythical buff from players coming from PVP is different than the mythical coming from players on PVE, but that sounds like one of the most ridiculous ways to code things ever, if that is the case.Picture taken today of the mythical buff with and without PVP check box enabled -><a href="http://i42.tinypic.com/24pm7f5.jpg">http://i42.tinypic.com/24pm7f5.jpg</a><a href="http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=24pm7f5&s=5"></a>

Notsovilepriest

04-24-2010, 06:39 PM

<cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote>To those who think guardians are fine in their current state. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />Enjoy.<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=477124">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=477124</a></blockquote>That proves nothing about the class, There are a lot of good classes on there that can do great things that are low, it just takes far more player skill to play them which turns into a lower population actually sticking to them.</blockquote>Again a misdirect has been sent.</blockquote>[Removed for Content] are you talking about?

Allforgrog

04-25-2010, 03:49 AM

I can certainly sympathize with the OP to some extent from my experience playing with my alt guardian in 80 BG, aggro in gears is easily attained, where player spread out in Ganak/Smugglers notso much, but that is not the problem i have found most aggravating. Guardian survivability is certainly and noticeably lower than other tanks as well as DMG output.After round after round fighting Zerkers with their new heal and crusaders it is frustrating, add in any round without a healer in group or one that is off picking daisies /rage. With a strong healer my guard can get the job done (he is an alt with low AA, i simply tuant-tab tuant-tab-taunt-hit-taunt-click temp-rinse & repeat) to see other tanks able to do the same effortlessly while also throwing down heavy dmg AND heals is demoralizing on a certain level.On my main i have found guardians to be the absolute easiest to kill, but would argue this so called unkillable SK rumor. Zerker with 2 healers and a pack of low DPS melee on them....that is unkillable. SK? notso much unless the healers are beastly and unmolested by the opposing team.The difference is, that SK might very well kill you, brawlers likewise followed by zerkers. I simply have no fear of guardians ...take it for what it's worth.Oh and i had no idea moderate did that (target lock) in PvP...must get more AA and cough..readmyabilitieswithPvPchecked....cough <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> meh it's only a 5% chance for 3 seconds, but hold on it's groupwide without AA spent in PvP for an avoid check /score.

Shorcon

04-25-2010, 06:02 PM

<cite>Allforgrog wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can certainly sympathize with the OP to some extent from my experience playing with my alt guardian in 80 BG, aggro in gears is easily attained, where player spread out in Ganak/Smugglers notso much, but that is not the problem i have found most aggravating. Guardian survivability is certainly and noticeably lower than other tanks as well as DMG output.After round after round fighting Zerkers with their new heal and crusaders it is frustrating, add in any round without a healer in group or one that is off picking daisies /rage. With a strong healer my guard can get the job done (he is an alt with low AA, i simply tuant-tab tuant-tab-taunt-hit-taunt-click temp-rinse & repeat) to see other tanks able to do the same effortlessly while also throwing down heavy dmg AND heals is demoralizing on a certain level.On my main i have found guardians to be the absolute easiest to kill, but would argue this so called unkillable SK rumor. Zerker with 2 healers and a pack of low DPS melee on them....that is unkillable. SK? notso much unless the healers are beastly and unmolested by the opposing team.The difference is, that SK might very well kill you, brawlers likewise followed by zerkers. I simply have no fear of guardians ...take it for what it's worth.Oh and i had no idea moderate did that (target lock) in PvP...must get more AA and cough..readmyabilitieswithPvPchecked....cough <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /> meh it's only a 5% chance for 3 seconds, but hold on it's groupwide without AA spent in PvP for an avoid check /score.</blockquote>Exactly. I would gladly give up any dps for the agro/def that guardians are made for. We should out survive all tanks. We should never out dps any tank. zerk included. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Notsovilepriest

04-25-2010, 06:08 PM

<cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Allforgrog wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can certainly sympathize with the OP to some extent from my experience playing with my alt guardian in 80 BG, aggro in gears is easily attained, where player spread out in Ganak/Smugglers notso much, but that is not the problem i have found most aggravating. Guardian survivability is certainly and noticeably lower than other tanks as well as DMG output.After round after round fighting Zerkers with their new heal and crusaders it is frustrating, add in any round without a healer in group or one that is off picking daisies /rage. With a strong healer my guard can get the job done (he is an alt with low AA, i simply tuant-tab tuant-tab-taunt-hit-taunt-click temp-rinse & repeat) to see other tanks able to do the same effortlessly while also throwing down heavy dmg AND heals is demoralizing on a certain level.On my main i have found guardians to be the absolute easiest to kill, but would argue this so called unkillable SK rumor. Zerker with 2 healers and a pack of low DPS melee on them....that is unkillable. SK? notso much unless the healers are beastly and unmolested by the opposing team.The difference is, that SK might very well kill you, brawlers likewise followed by zerkers. I simply have no fear of guardians ...take it for what it's worth.Oh and i had no idea moderate did that (target lock) in PvP...must get more AA and cough..readmyabilitieswithPvPchecked....cough <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /> meh it's only a 5% chance for 3 seconds, but hold on it's groupwide without AA spent in PvP for an avoid check /score.</blockquote>Exactly. I would gladly give up any dps for the agro/def that guardians are made for. We should out survive all tanks. We should never out dps any tank. zerk included. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Holy crap, You already out do every other tank for agro, you still want more?

Allforgrog

04-26-2010, 02:16 AM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Allforgrog wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can certainly sympathize with the OP to some extent from my experience playing with my alt guardian in 80 BG, aggro in gears is easily attained, where player spread out in Ganak/Smugglers notso much, but that is not the problem i have found most aggravating. Guardian survivability is certainly and noticeably lower than other tanks as well as DMG output.After round after round fighting Zerkers with their new heal and crusaders it is frustrating, add in any round without a healer in group or one that is off picking daisies /rage. With a strong healer my guard can get the job done (he is an alt with low AA, i simply tuant-tab tuant-tab-taunt-hit-taunt-click temp-rinse & repeat) to see other tanks able to do the same effortlessly while also throwing down heavy dmg AND heals is demoralizing on a certain level.On my main i have found guardians to be the absolute easiest to kill, but would argue this so called unkillable SK rumor. Zerker with 2 healers and a pack of low DPS melee on them....that is unkillable. SK? notso much unless the healers are beastly and unmolested by the opposing team.The difference is, that SK might very well kill you, brawlers likewise followed by zerkers. I simply have no fear of guardians ...take it for what it's worth.Oh and i had no idea moderate did that (target lock) in PvP...must get more AA and cough..readmyabilitieswithPvPchecked....cough <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /> meh it's only a 5% chance for 3 seconds, but hold on it's groupwide without AA spent in PvP for an avoid check /score.</blockquote>Exactly. I would gladly give up any dps for the agro/def that guardians are made for. We should out survive all tanks. We should never out dps any tank. zerk included. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Holy crap, You already out do every other tank for agro, you still want more?</blockquote>Yeah aggro is fine, excellent in fact.I believe, and bear with me talking as one who is playing an alt i previously retired way back in RoK, the imbalance is caused by the relative weakness in group PvP of stoneskin effects such as block and ToS vs regenerating wards/proc heals and lifetaps.Stoneskins are awesome against single target timable mobs as are found facing NPC targets, as such they are a great advantage for the survivability of Guardians as a raid MT. Where as, a crusader's heals and lifetaps simply fail to adequately offset the big hits from raid mobs.However when facing multiple other players the triggers are spent at such a fast pace they cannot nearly measure up to these other abilities. 6 players hit an unprepared zerker with a melee attack odds are they will heal them more than hurt, the same six hit a fully prepared guard and they will burn out ToS+block and land at least two hits for damage in under a second.It isn't that guards do not have tool bag for defense, heck we have an entire bag full of hammers, they problem is that we are facing a bolt and other classes have wrenches.Where other tanks stand is perfectly fine IMO and does not require any nerf. Tanks should be hard to kill as it stands i have only come across one guard who falls well into that category.

EverRude

04-26-2010, 12:29 PM

I have a guard and sk. Both did a lot of pve in tso. The sk did a lot more even though I only rolled that char after the expansion started because I wanted to see for myself the difference between a guard and sk. So far I haven't played either in BG because I am enjoying my ranger that had been mothballed since rok. As a ranger I most definitely prefer to be taunted by a guardian. Saves me from having to target him myself. My job as a ranger is to kill "soft targets." Especially the ones that can cause my team the most headache. Typically tanks are a waste arrows except when it's a guard. I can kill most guards easier than brigs or assassins. Far easier than some wizards and warlocks. The guards I have encountered in BG have been no real threat to me. Even in melee range I can kill them. They don't put out enough dps to kill me and I can usually chew through whatever health they started with quickly. Guards in BG are [Removed for Content].

Rageincarnate

04-26-2010, 01:07 PM

<cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Seolta@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I doubt alot of these people even play BG's.In reality Paly, Zerker, and Brawlers with stoneskins and stacked Deathsaves are out-surviving both Guards AND SK's on a daily basis.<ul><li>Unlike Zerker and Brawlers, Crusaders must PUSH BUTTONS to live.</li><li>Killing an SK is not hard at all if you know what you're doing.</li><li>Most SK's in BG are running around with Bloodletter down 90% of the time.</li></ul><div></div><div>SK's are a niche class. We were practically unplayable for years, then finally got some love.</div><div>Guardians are sadly looking more than ever like the spoiled babies that cry if they aren't best at everything.</div><div>Sorry you aren't best defensive tank in raid AND top tank on the parse every fight like you were in TSO. Don't take it out on us over silly imaginary prejudices in BG.</div></blockquote>U sir must not play bg's much. SK is the easiest class to survive in bg by leaps and bounds. All but the guardian can survive well. My point is: why not the guardian also? Why cant the guardian spec survival anywere near as well as the other tank classes. Hybrid/dps classes should not out survive straight damage dealing brawls like the pure tanks.</blockquote>where do you come up with these notions..??a tank is a tanka scout is a scouta mage is a magea healer is a healereveryone should be able to do their job.. if they can't and it is provable with ACTUAL FACT, they need fixed.. period..

Rageincarnate

04-26-2010, 01:10 PM

if you are going to compare hate generation, please post some threat parses please. Until you give us some actual fact.. you will get nothing accomplished. If you care about your class and aren't just full of b.s. do it right, please.

Shankapotomus

04-26-2010, 02:01 PM

No sir, this is not WoW....I'm a fury, so a healer and a spellcaster (HYBRID)! The whole point of a sub class is to not be JUST a healer or whatever your class and have versetility.And if a tank is a tank, then why can zerkers, pallys, and SKs parse high on the heal parses? Sorry I'm not currently on to take screens of things that are so obvious you should be able to find them yourself sir. How many guardians do you remember seeing high in any parse or remember playing against one at all? You don't, because they go down like nothing compared to all the other classes.Don't get on a post just to bash a single post for not having all the facts, when you yourself sir... do not...

Darkonx

04-26-2010, 04:16 PM

<cite>bluedego wrote:</cite><blockquote>if you are going to compare hate generation, please post some threat parses please. Until you give us some actual fact.. you will get nothing accomplished. If you care about your class and aren't just full of b.s. do it right, please.</blockquote><a href="http://i42.tinypic.com/24pm7f5.jpg">http://i42.tinypic.com/24pm7f5.jpg</a> -> my class is broken and our mythical doesn't work in PVP -> please fix.It should be -> <img src="http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/7403/eq2000038.jpg" width="305" height="678" />

Rageincarnate

04-26-2010, 07:33 PM

<cite>Shankapotomus@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>No sir, this is not WoW....I'm a fury, so a healer and a spellcaster (HYBRID)! The whole point of a sub class is to not be JUST a healer or whatever your class and have versetility.And if a tank is a tank, then why can zerkers, pallys, and SKs parse high on the heal parses? Sorry I'm not currently on to take screens of things that are so obvious you should be able to find them yourself sir. How many guardians do you remember seeing high in any parse or remember playing against one at all? You don't, because they go down like nothing compared to all the other classes.Don't get on a post just to bash a single post for not having all the facts, when you yourself sir... do not...</blockquote> <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> i play a guard and a sk lol.. but i still see alot of mouth flapping and still no facts.. your a healer.. get over it. Keep in mind. sk's just got their dm focus nerfed .. which needed doneAnd if a tank is a tank, then why can zerkers, pallys, and SKs parse high on the heal parses?(cough .. inspect them <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> i think you'll figure it out..)How many guardians do you remember seeing high in any parse or remember playing against one at all?(just 1 , but hes pretty awesome)If and only if you have any valid points i would enjoy a conversation about it.

Yimway

04-26-2010, 08:11 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>But its simple fact that an SK and Guard are going to be able to reach basically the same mit/avoidance numbers, and when one class has self heals and one doesn't in pvp, there becomes a tremendous gap.</blockquote>This.Its fact, I challenge someone to dispute it. All the ancellary arguements don't really matter so much as the above is true. Dps, threat generation, etc are sidestepping the actual gap between the fighter classes.

Darkonx

04-26-2010, 09:51 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>But its simple fact that an SK and Guard are going to be able to reach basically the same mit/avoidance numbers, and when one class has self heals and one doesn't in pvp, there becomes a tremendous gap.</blockquote>This.Its fact, I challenge someone to dispute it. All the ancellary arguements don't really matter so much as the above is true. Dps, threat generation, etc are sidestepping the actual gap between the fighter classes.</blockquote>That is true. SK's have more survivability. They also have TERRIBLE aggro.

Stuckx

04-26-2010, 10:29 PM

<cite>Darkonx@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>But its simple fact that an SK and Guard are going to be able to reach basically the same mit/avoidance numbers, and when one class has self heals and one doesn't in pvp, there becomes a tremendous gap.</blockquote>This.Its fact, I challenge someone to dispute it. All the ancellary arguements don't really matter so much as the above is true. Dps, threat generation, etc are sidestepping the actual gap between the fighter classes.</blockquote>That is true. SK's have more survivability. They also have TERRIBLE aggro.</blockquote>[Removed for Content]..seriously? You're trying to say SK's have terrible agro? You must be on crack.

Yimway

04-26-2010, 10:37 PM

<cite>Darkonx@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>That is true. SK's have more survivability. They also have TERRIBLE aggro.</blockquote>While my sk doesn't have the same tools for aggro as my guard, I do not find holding aggro with it difficult. Not nearly as difficult as not dieing on my guard.

Notsovilepriest

04-26-2010, 11:27 PM

Are you talking PvP or PvE?

Yimway

04-26-2010, 11:53 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Are you talking PvP or PvE?</blockquote>Mainly discussing pvp, but its true in any content outside of single target raid mobs, ie, 99% of the game.This however is the BG forums, so pretty much pvp is the only part of it of any concern.

Notsovilepriest

04-27-2010, 12:22 AM

Guardians dominate every other tank for agro in PvP, Much harder in PvE than PvP to tank on a guardian. The only issue with guard in PvP is that they hold agro too well with not enough survivability tools

Kota

04-27-2010, 03:39 AM

when i get in a mosh pit, i'm not overly impressed with guardian aggro. not saying it's bad, but i get taunted by everyone else it seems.

Shorcon

04-27-2010, 04:09 AM

Guardian needs love. PERIOD. FACT. Survivability in pvp and agro in pve. They need both to be able to once again compete with the other tanks.

Rageincarnate

04-27-2010, 01:11 PM

So, what do you guys think? A ward proc damage shield for one of your buffs? A buff like the zerkers wouldn't be out of the question?A way to occasionally clear control effects? like the crusader? ward proc items are getting nerfed.. so guards are even going to get hit harder yet.. They do need something... They are built for taking large slow hits off a debuffed mob.. I hate that someone plays a class.. loves it yet can't do their job because of how they are designed.Atan, you have any suggestions?I'm thinking 10-20 seconds worth of control effects immunity in some form and ward proc or maybe a reactive stun?(does not effect epics of course) (nondebuffable but curable(make it about skill ))on hit for one of the buffs would be a reasonable request. potency and crit bonus inflation would def have to be factored in..The thinking behind it is, you need to slow down the hits on the guard so their natural abilities can be of more use. Thoughts? I also feel multiple trigger bloodletter should be nerfed in pvp only. (i play an sk)

Notsovilepriest

04-27-2010, 02:55 PM

<cite>bluedego wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, what do you guys think? A ward proc damage shield for one of your buffs? A buff like the zerkers wouldn't be out of the question?A way to occasionally clear control effects? like the crusader? ward proc items are getting nerfed.. so guards are even going to get hit harder yet.. They do need something... They are built for taking large slow hits off a debuffed mob.. I hate that someone plays a class.. loves it yet can't do their job because of how they are designed.Atan, you have any suggestions?I'm thinking 10-20 seconds worth of control effects immunity in some form and ward proc or maybe a reactive stun?(does not effect epics of course) (nondebuffable but curable(make it about skill ))on hit for one of the buffs would be a reasonable request. potency and crit bonus inflation would def have to be factored in..The thinking behind it is, you need to slow down the hits on the guard so their natural abilities can be of more use. Thoughts? I also feel multiple trigger bloodletter should be nerfed in pvp only. (i play an sk)</blockquote>Doesn't guard myth proc CC immunity?

Rageincarnate

04-27-2010, 03:22 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>bluedego wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, what do you guys think? A ward proc damage shield for one of your buffs? A buff like the zerkers wouldn't be out of the question?A way to occasionally clear control effects? like the crusader? ward proc items are getting nerfed.. so guards are even going to get hit harder yet.. They do need something... They are built for taking large slow hits off a debuffed mob.. I hate that someone plays a class.. loves it yet can't do their job because of how they are designed.Atan, you have any suggestions?I'm thinking 10-20 seconds worth of control effects immunity in some form and ward proc or maybe a reactive stun?(does not effect epics of course) (nondebuffable but curable(make it about skill ))on hit for one of the buffs would be a reasonable request. potency and crit bonus inflation would def have to be factored in..The thinking behind it is, you need to slow down the hits on the guard so their natural abilities can be of more use. Thoughts? I also feel multiple trigger bloodletter should be nerfed in pvp only. (i play an sk)</blockquote>Doesn't guard myth proc CC immunity?</blockquote>yes, but you need to hit something to proc it.. and the first 2 seconds in a pvp fight is the most important right? i will fully admit i could be completly off base and dead wrong.. just asking for honest opinions.

Notsovilepriest

04-27-2010, 03:32 PM

<cite>bluedego wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>bluedego wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, what do you guys think? A ward proc damage shield for one of your buffs? A buff like the zerkers wouldn't be out of the question?A way to occasionally clear control effects? like the crusader? ward proc items are getting nerfed.. so guards are even going to get hit harder yet.. They do need something... They are built for taking large slow hits off a debuffed mob.. I hate that someone plays a class.. loves it yet can't do their job because of how they are designed.Atan, you have any suggestions?I'm thinking 10-20 seconds worth of control effects immunity in some form and ward proc or maybe a reactive stun?(does not effect epics of course) (nondebuffable but curable(make it about skill ))on hit for one of the buffs would be a reasonable request. potency and crit bonus inflation would def have to be factored in..The thinking behind it is, you need to slow down the hits on the guard so their natural abilities can be of more use. Thoughts? I also feel multiple trigger bloodletter should be nerfed in pvp only. (i play an sk)</blockquote>Doesn't guard myth proc CC immunity?</blockquote>yes, but you need to hit something to proc it.. and the first 2 seconds in a pvp fight is the most important right? i will fully admit i could be completly off base and dead wrong.. just asking for honest opinions.</blockquote>Get what you mean, but I mean, offering that could be opening pandora's box, Zerkers would want it, Monks would want it and it would be even more blurring effect, but now most healers can break your effects in the start, or prevent them all together, so I don't know it's really needed to have more than 1 way to prevent CC, It's just more guardians need the ability to ward out or absorb PvP damage (Moderate amounts for sustained amounts of time happening fast) better than they do now.

knightofround

04-28-2010, 01:59 PM

<cite>Stuckx@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>But its simple fact that an SK and Guard are going to be able to reach basically the same mit/avoidance numbers, and when one class has self heals and one doesn't in pvp, there becomes a tremendous gap.</blockquote>This.Its fact, I challenge someone to dispute it. All the ancellary arguements don't really matter so much as the above is true. Dps, threat generation, etc are sidestepping the actual gap between the fighter classes.</blockquote>That is true. SK's have more survivability. They also have TERRIBLE aggro.</blockquote>[Removed for Content]..seriously? You're trying to say SK's have terrible agro? You must be on crack.</blockquote>You don't get it do you...the SK epic gem does NOT have the pvp taunt proc that the mythical weapon does. So the only PVP aggro tools an SK has at their disposal are:1. The green AE taunt, 3 second green AE target lock, 15 sec reuse2. The two fighter snaps, 3 and 5 second single target lock , about 2 min 30 sec reuse each3. The SK epic clicky, 7 second single target lock / 4 min 30 sec reuse4. Crusader's Cry, procs a 3 second green AE target lock on a melee attack, 2.4 times per minute(Single target taunt is worthless, as is the one or two other CAs that force a temporary target change but do not lock it)Now that I've betrayed to paladin, my aggro control has improved IMMENSELY.

Allforgrog

04-28-2010, 03:20 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>bluedego wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>bluedego wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, what do you guys think? A ward proc damage shield for one of your buffs? A buff like the zerkers wouldn't be out of the question?A way to occasionally clear control effects? like the crusader? ward proc items are getting nerfed.. so guards are even going to get hit harder yet.. They do need something... They are built for taking large slow hits off a debuffed mob.. I hate that someone plays a class.. loves it yet can't do their job because of how they are designed.Atan, you have any suggestions?I'm thinking 10-20 seconds worth of control effects immunity in some form and ward proc or maybe a reactive stun?(does not effect epics of course) (nondebuffable but curable(make it about skill ))on hit for one of the buffs would be a reasonable request. potency and crit bonus inflation would def have to be factored in..The thinking behind it is, you need to slow down the hits on the guard so their natural abilities can be of more use. Thoughts? I also feel multiple trigger bloodletter should be nerfed in pvp only. (i play an sk)</blockquote>Doesn't guard myth proc CC immunity?</blockquote>yes, but you need to hit something to proc it.. and the first 2 seconds in a pvp fight is the most important right? i will fully admit i could be completly off base and dead wrong.. just asking for honest opinions.</blockquote>Get what you mean, but I mean, offering that could be opening pandora's box, Zerkers would want it, Monks would want it and it would be even more blurring effect, but now most healers can break your effects in the start, or prevent them all together, so I don't know it's really needed to have more than 1 way to prevent CC, It's just more guardians need the ability to ward out or absorb PvP damage (Moderate amounts for sustained amounts of time happening fast) better than they do now.</blockquote>Well sure, it seems nice on paper, but i don't think any fighter would trade mythicals with the guard on the whole though. It was among the absolute best in RoK, but then nerfed. At least for PVE. I would have to better attention next time i play him to say how effective it is. Of course it is all for naught if i am dead 3 seconds in.

Kota

04-28-2010, 05:24 PM

<cite>knightofround wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Stuckx@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>But its simple fact that an SK and Guard are going to be able to reach basically the same mit/avoidance numbers, and when one class has self heals and one doesn't in pvp, there becomes a tremendous gap.</blockquote>This.Its fact, I challenge someone to dispute it. All the ancellary arguements don't really matter so much as the above is true. Dps, threat generation, etc are sidestepping the actual gap between the fighter classes.</blockquote>That is true. SK's have more survivability. They also have TERRIBLE aggro.</blockquote>[Removed for Content]..seriously? You're trying to say SK's have terrible agro? You must be on crack.</blockquote>You don't get it do you...the SK epic gem does NOT have the pvp taunt proc that the mythical weapon does. So the only PVP aggro tools an SK has at their disposal are:1. The green AE taunt, 3 second green AE target lock, 15 sec reuse2. The two fighter snaps, 3 and 5 second single target lock , about 2 min 30 sec reuse each3. The SK epic clicky, 7 second single target lock / 4 min 30 sec reuse4. Crusader's Cry, procs a 3 second green AE target lock on a melee attack, 2.4 times per minute(Single target taunt is worthless, as is the one or two other CAs that force a temporary target change but do not lock it)Now that I've betrayed to paladin, my aggro control has improved IMMENSELY.</blockquote>why is single target useless ? it's still 3 sec duration idn't it ?

Yimway

04-28-2010, 08:18 PM

<cite>bluedego wrote:</cite><blockquote>Atan, you have any suggestions?I'm thinking 10-20 seconds worth of control effects immunity in some form and ward proc or maybe a reactive stun?(does not effect epics of course) (nondebuffable but curable(make it about skill ))on hit for one of the buffs would be a reasonable request. potency and crit bonus inflation would def have to be factored in..</blockquote>I don't have a simple fix for this. Least not one I like. As I see it, these are the options:1) Heal / Ward procs - I hate this, adding more heals to any fighter is just heaping more abilities that are other class's responsabilities onto fighters. You might as well just make a b3astlord class again if your going to give any fighter class heals.2) CC Imunity proc / buff - I'm still not sure this actually fixes it. The class will still go down like a prom date.3) CC defensive proc - 20% chance to stun target when damage is afflicted. This does slow down the speed in which the class takes damage, but I don't like the idea of throwing more 'CC locking' abilities into PVP combat. We already spend too much time not having control of our toons (all of us), the idea of injecting more of it doesn't sound like it 'adds fun'.4) Adjust the mitigation curve for guards only - This idea I like best. Basically adjust the diminishing rewards curve to run to 90% for guards and leave other fighters (who have heals) at 80%. Cutting the amount of damage you can inflict on the class potentially in half. Since this has far reaching impact in pve, a shortcut to this is just to put a 50% base damage reduction on the class defensive stance in pvp only. The class will still go down, probably still faster than zerkers, but will have more reasonable survivability in pvp combat.All that being said, I don't want to be Wendy whiner hear, as I can sorta hold my own in pvp as it is, but I'm finding NO OTHER guard I've run into in BG that is more than a speedbump to me. I'm sure there's some good ones out there, but your simply not in my matches. But regardless of how good or bad I am, my sk and zerker absolutely have more survivability and are FAR less geared (and still have more than adequate hate control).2cp.

Kota

04-28-2010, 08:58 PM

i very much dislike the idea of guards getting a diff mit standard. btw i am an advocate for improvement of guardians, but i just don't like that idea.

Yimway

04-28-2010, 09:11 PM

<cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>i very much dislike the idea of guards getting a diff mit standard. btw i am an advocate for improvement of guardians, but i just don't like that idea.</blockquote>Provide an actual idea then.

Valind

04-28-2010, 10:20 PM

<cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>knightofround wrote:</cite><blockquote>(Single target taunt is worthless, as is the one or two other CAs that force a temporary target change but do not lock it)</blockquote>why is single target useless ? it's still 3 sec duration idn't it ?</blockquote>Shadowknight (and also Paladin FYI) single-target taunts don't lock targets. They do however, repeat the taunt every second for 8 seconds. So in a way they're the best basic single-target taunt there is. Also, it is the ONLY taunt that crusaders get that isn't a lock. Knightofround needs to go inspect his taunts again.

spudsmckenzie2

04-29-2010, 02:00 AM

throwing the mitigation curve out the window for guardians is a great idea imo...changing us back to how we were during kos. this should be a guardian only thing...no sk's cause they have everything else. i doubt soe would do anything like this....they wouldnt want to waste the time on the remaining 20 or so guardians left 8(

dellaripa

04-29-2010, 02:11 AM

How about Un-Godmoding the other tanks.Brilliant? Yes. This flash of insight has even managed to impress myself.You can thank me later.

Allforgrog

04-29-2010, 02:55 AM

<cite>dellaripa wrote:</cite><blockquote>How about Un-Godmoding the other tanks.Brilliant? Yes. This flash of insight has even managed to impress myself.You can thank me later.</blockquote>IMO the other tanks aren't currently Godmode, more so once the LU goes live. The issue is at hand is survivability for guardians, which is sorely lacking atm. I suppose my suggestion would be to make PVE stoneskin professional abilities a DMG reduction effect for a set duration in PVP only.

Kota

04-29-2010, 06:07 AM

<cite>Valindor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>knightofround wrote:</cite><blockquote>(Single target taunt is worthless, as is the one or two other CAs that force a temporary target change but do not lock it)</blockquote>why is single target useless ? it's still 3 sec duration idn't it ?</blockquote>Shadowknight (and also Paladin FYI) single-target taunts don't lock targets. They do however, repeat the taunt every second for 8 seconds. So in a way they're the best basic single-target taunt there is. Also, it is the ONLY taunt that crusaders get that isn't a lock. Knightofround needs to go inspect his taunts again.</blockquote>that's hardly useless

Rageincarnate

04-29-2010, 01:34 PM

<cite>dellaripa wrote:</cite><blockquote>How about Un-Godmoding the other tanks.Brilliant? Yes. This flash of insight has even managed to impress myself.You can thank me later.</blockquote>This is about guards and how to fix them. You are not helping. If you had an actual idea that wouldn't break classes we would love to hear it.Everyone here knows Guards need something(IN PVP).. What? is the problem.. This is your chance to help fix a class and talk about it like non morons.Was hoping to hear more ideas.. oh well.... I had a suggestion multi-trigger bloodletter be nerfed in pvp and i play an sk.

dellaripa

04-29-2010, 01:50 PM

<cite>bluedego wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dellaripa wrote:</cite><blockquote>How about Un-Godmoding the other tanks.Brilliant? Yes. This flash of insight has even managed to impress myself.You can thank me later.</blockquote>This is about guards and how to fix them. You are not helping. If you had an actual idea that wouldn't break classes we would love to hear it.Everyone here knows Guards need something(IN PVP).. What? is the problem.. This is your chance to help fix a class and talk about it like non morons.Was hoping to hear more ideas.. oh well.... I had a suggestion multi-trigger bloodletter be nerfed in pvp and i play an sk.</blockquote>The way to "fix" guards is to stop comparing them to the other OP. easymode, BG button mashing, unkillable tank classes. If you look at it that way then guardians aren't really broken. Fix the other classes and the obvious deficiencies of guardians aren't so apparent.Guards don't need any more survivability, the other tank classes (Crusaders mostly) need their survivability cut in half.

Rageincarnate

04-29-2010, 02:52 PM

<cite>dellaripa wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>bluedego wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dellaripa wrote:</cite><blockquote>How about Un-Godmoding the other tanks.Brilliant? Yes. This flash of insight has even managed to impress myself.You can thank me later.</blockquote>This is about guards and how to fix them. You are not helping. If you had an actual idea that wouldn't break classes we would love to hear it.Everyone here knows Guards need something(IN PVP).. What? is the problem.. This is your chance to help fix a class and talk about it like non morons.Was hoping to hear more ideas.. oh well.... I had a suggestion multi-trigger bloodletter be nerfed in pvp and i play an sk.</blockquote>The way to "fix" guards is to stop comparing them to the other OP. easymode, BG button mashing, unkillable tank classes. If you look at it that way then guardians aren't really broken. Fix the other classes and the obvious deficiencies of guardians aren't so apparent.Guards don't need any more survivability, the other tank classes (Crusaders mostly) need their survivability cut in half.</blockquote>read pach notes imo..

Rageincarnate

04-29-2010, 03:02 PM

<cite>dellaripa wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>bluedego wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dellaripa wrote:</cite><blockquote>How about Un-Godmoding the other tanks.Brilliant? Yes. This flash of insight has even managed to impress myself.You can thank me later.</blockquote>This is about guards and how to fix them. You are not helping. If you had an actual idea that wouldn't break classes we would love to hear it.Everyone here knows Guards need something(IN PVP).. What? is the problem.. This is your chance to help fix a class and talk about it like non morons.Was hoping to hear more ideas.. oh well.... I had a suggestion multi-trigger bloodletter be nerfed in pvp and i play an sk.</blockquote>The way to "fix" guards is to stop comparing them to the other OP. easymode, BG button mashing, unkillable tank classes. If you look at it that way then guardians aren't really broken. Fix the other classes and the obvious deficiencies of guardians aren't so apparent.Guards don't need any more survivability, the other tank classes (Crusaders mostly) need their survivability cut in half.</blockquote>soo, let me make sure i get this right. You want tanks to be easy to kill right? So you don't want people moving around as a group with a tank, taking the damage for the group? Taunting and taking damage is a tanks job.. I'm going to assume you play a caster dps.. just based off of your comments. What makes sense to you? i'd love to hear some detailed explanitions. Or a way to do it , mention buffs and associated tank skills/aa please.

dellaripa

04-29-2010, 04:34 PM

<cite>bluedego wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dellaripa wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>bluedego wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dellaripa wrote:</cite><blockquote>How about Un-Godmoding the other tanks.Brilliant? Yes. This flash of insight has even managed to impress myself.You can thank me later.</blockquote>This is about guards and how to fix them. You are not helping. If you had an actual idea that wouldn't break classes we would love to hear it.Everyone here knows Guards need something(IN PVP).. What? is the problem.. This is your chance to help fix a class and talk about it like non morons.Was hoping to hear more ideas.. oh well.... I had a suggestion multi-trigger bloodletter be nerfed in pvp and i play an sk.</blockquote>The way to "fix" guards is to stop comparing them to the other OP. easymode, BG button mashing, unkillable tank classes. If you look at it that way then guardians aren't really broken. Fix the other classes and the obvious deficiencies of guardians aren't so apparent.Guards don't need any more survivability, the other tank classes (Crusaders mostly) need their survivability cut in half.</blockquote>soo, let me make sure i get this right. You want tanks to be easy to kill right? So you don't want people moving around as a group with a tank, taking the damage for the group? Taunting and taking damage is a tanks job.. I'm going to assume you play a caster dps.. just based off of your comments. What makes sense to you? i'd love to hear some detailed explanitions. Or a way to do it , mention buffs and associated tank skills/aa please.</blockquote>Guardians are not easy kills, unless you compare them to their crusader counterparts, who can be quite unkillable. Therein lies the flaw in the argument. The question that should be asked is "Who is broken, the guardian or the crusaders?"I posit that Crusaders , in their current form, are the most overly broken archetype that this game has ever witnessed. If they weren't so powerful in every aspect of this game, PvE or PvP, then this thread would never have existed.

Yimway

04-29-2010, 05:00 PM

<cite>dellaripa wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>bluedego wrote:</cite><blockquote>soo, let me make sure i get this right. You want tanks to be easy to kill right? So you don't want people moving around as a group with a tank, taking the damage for the group? Taunting and taking damage is a tanks job.. </blockquote>I posit that Crusaders , in their current form, are the most overly broken archetype that this game has ever witnessed. If they weren't so powerful in every aspect of this game, PvE or PvP, then this thread would never have existed.</blockquote>This thread may be titled for guard vs sk, but you can extend it to guard vs any other fighter.They all have more survivability, so, lets leave the already observed fact that crusaders are OP, you still have zerkers, monks, and brawlers with more pvp survivability than the guard class.Its still very apparent that even if crusaders and zerkers are brought in line, the guard class in pvp roll still has significant deficiencies.Others in the thread would like to keep things focused on whether or not this specific class needs work, rather than having yet another 'crusaders are op, meh' thread.

dellaripa

04-29-2010, 05:09 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dellaripa wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>bluedego wrote:</cite><blockquote>soo, let me make sure i get this right. You want tanks to be easy to kill right? So you don't want people moving around as a group with a tank, taking the damage for the group? Taunting and taking damage is a tanks job.. </blockquote>I posit that Crusaders , in their current form, are the most overly broken archetype that this game has ever witnessed. If they weren't so powerful in every aspect of this game, PvE or PvP, then this thread would never have existed.</blockquote>This thread may be titled for guard vs sk, but you can extend it to guard vs any other fighter.They all have more survivability, so, lets leave the already observed fact that crusaders are OP, you still have zerkers, monks, and brawlers with more pvp survivability than the guard class.Its still very apparent that even if crusaders and zerkers are brought in line, the guard class in pvp roll still has significant deficiencies.Others in the thread would like to keep things focused on whether or not this specific class needs work, rather than having yet another 'crusaders are op, meh' thread.</blockquote>We're going in circles here. My point is that we do not need any more GodMode classes, including guardians. What needs to be done is to remove GodMode across the board. We successfully witnessed this with the sorcerer fix.But, in the spirit of the thread I'll bite. Defensive stance: The guardian is immune to mitigation debuffs while engaged in pvp combat. Very similar to brawlers strikethrough immunity.

Rageincarnate

04-29-2010, 06:18 PM

<cite>dellaripa wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dellaripa wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>bluedego wrote:</cite><blockquote>soo, let me make sure i get this right. You want tanks to be easy to kill right? So you don't want people moving around as a group with a tank, taking the damage for the group? Taunting and taking damage is a tanks job.. </blockquote>I posit that Crusaders , in their current form, are the most overly broken archetype that this game has ever witnessed. If they weren't so powerful in every aspect of this game, PvE or PvP, then this thread would never have existed.</blockquote>This thread may be titled for guard vs sk, but you can extend it to guard vs any other fighter.They all have more survivability, so, lets leave the already observed fact that crusaders are OP, you still have zerkers, monks, and brawlers with more pvp survivability than the guard class.Its still very apparent that even if crusaders and zerkers are brought in line, the guard class in pvp roll still has significant deficiencies.Others in the thread would like to keep things focused on whether or not this specific class needs work, rather than having yet another 'crusaders are op, meh' thread.</blockquote>We're going in circles here. My point is that we do not need any more GodMode classes, including guardians. What needs to be done is to remove GodMode across the board. We successfully witnessed this with the sorcerer fix.But, in the spirit of the thread I'll bite. Defensive stance: The guardian is immune to mitigation debuffs while engaged in pvp combat. Very similar to brawlers strikethrough immunity.</blockquote>thank you.. good concept

Yimway

04-29-2010, 06:24 PM

<cite>dellaripa wrote:</cite><blockquote>But, in the spirit of the thread I'll bite. Defensive stance: The guardian is immune to mitigation debuffs while engaged in pvp combat. Very similar to brawlers strikethrough immunity.</blockquote>I don't think that will parse out terribly effective. Cause even without debuffs, the class takes damage too fast as compaired to other fighters. In fact with the nerfs to stonewill, I'm sure I'll return to being a pushover in pvp combat.It's a bonus for sure, but I don't think it will change the classes observed efficacy.

Shorcon

04-30-2010, 03:40 PM

<cite>dellaripa wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dellaripa wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>bluedego wrote:</cite><blockquote>soo, let me make sure i get this right. You want tanks to be easy to kill right? So you don't want people moving around as a group with a tank, taking the damage for the group? Taunting and taking damage is a tanks job.. </blockquote>I posit that Crusaders , in their current form, are the most overly broken archetype that this game has ever witnessed. If they weren't so powerful in every aspect of this game, PvE or PvP, then this thread would never have existed.</blockquote>This thread may be titled for guard vs sk, but you can extend it to guard vs any other fighter.They all have more survivability, so, lets leave the already observed fact that crusaders are OP, you still have zerkers, monks, and brawlers with more pvp survivability than the guard class.Its still very apparent that even if crusaders and zerkers are brought in line, the guard class in pvp roll still has significant deficiencies.Others in the thread would like to keep things focused on whether or not this specific class needs work, rather than having yet another 'crusaders are op, meh' thread.</blockquote>We're going in circles here. My point is that we do not need any more GodMode classes, including guardians. What needs to be done is to remove GodMode across the board. We successfully witnessed this with the sorcerer fix.But, in the spirit of the thread I'll bite. Defensive stance: The guardian is immune to mitigation debuffs while engaged in pvp combat. Very similar to brawlers strikethrough immunity.</blockquote>I dont care one way or the other. I just want guardians to compare to all the other 5 tanks. Period. Nerf the other tanks. Thats fine with me. Would have to be a HUGE nerf though.

Kota

04-30-2010, 04:27 PM

i don't know about huge

Shorcon

04-30-2010, 06:02 PM

<cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>i don't know about huge</blockquote>Yeah. Huge. Massive. Big.

Shorcon

05-01-2010, 04:48 AM

<cite>Seolta@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I doubt alot of these people even play BG's.In reality Paly, Zerker, and Brawlers with stoneskins and stacked Deathsaves are out-surviving both Guards AND SK's on a daily basis.<ul><li>Unlike Zerker and Brawlers, Crusaders must PUSH BUTTONS to live.</li><li>Killing an SK is not hard at all if you know what you're doing.</li><li>Most SK's in BG are running around with Bloodletter down 90% of the time.</li></ul><div></div><div>SK's are a niche class. We were practically unplayable for years, then finally got some love.</div><div>Guardians are sadly looking more than ever like the spoiled babies that cry if they aren't best at everything.</div><div>Sorry you aren't best defensive tank in raid AND top tank on the parse every fight like you were in TSO. Don't take it out on us over silly imaginary prejudices in BG.</div></blockquote>I felt it was important to quote this guy due to the fact that he calls it how he see's it. I was thier when SK's got tower shield. I heard SK diehards fighting for the ability to fight alongside the puretanks. I agree SK is, and with the fight sooooo many SK's put up for so long; are deserving of the top spot in raids for a time. Don't knock that a bit. Put up a fight on the boards and sometimes it works out. What I dont like is the fact that many poorly played SK's can pull single targeted mobs that I am off tankin with simple ae agro. No Shouldn't be possible with a fully mastered Guardian in superior gear. No Grave Sac, Etc.I don't mind off tanking to another class. As a matter of fact I enjoy it. I just think We should be able to MT with sk off tank.This is a bg forum so for this post my big point is that we should through either resists or another avenue be able to survive as easily as any well played sk. Well played guardian is a must of course.Back in the day when SK's thought they should get a move out of the hybrid class of tanks. In giving them what they wanted they opened pandoras box as someone within this post calls it. They by getting the mit/agro of the gaurdian and with thier agro gains being in ae damage they moved the highbrid into better capability than any other class in the game. Better at tanking than the Pure tanks. Easier to tank than we ever had it. We had to tank with skill. We had to fight for every inch of agro we had. We didn't have damage meeter to tell us if someone was chasing us on hate. We had a single target snap in rescue that all tanks get. We had reinforcements after the release of DoF. Tanking was hard back then. It took skill. Now that the hybrid is in the top seat tanking has been made easy button. Thats fine. Just make the Pure tanks equal. Hybrids should have always stayed hybrid.I have a better option. After a lot of thought just call it what it is. The dominate MT is SK. The choices of OT are any other tank class above the dps tanks/brawlers. Make a new hybrid then in an up and coming xpac. Give them back 2 char classes. There is only 1 hybrid tank class as it stands. SK's have become the only true form pure tank. Guardians/zerk are best choice OT's unless you have a second SK that knows how to play and can single target snap mobs as needed off the other SK without over doing it which is easy to do.Change the descriptions before we hit gu56 though. I'd hate to see players missled by the character descriptions.

Shorcon

05-01-2010, 05:22 AM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote> 4) Adjust the mitigation curve for guards only - This idea I like best. Basically adjust the diminishing rewards curve to run to 90% for guards and leave other fighters (who have heals) at 80%. Cutting the amount of damage you can inflict on the class potentially in half. Since this has far reaching impact in pve, a shortcut to this is just to put a 50% base damage reduction on the class defensive stance in pvp only. The class will still go down, probably still faster than zerkers, but will have more reasonable survivability in pvp combat.</blockquote>This I believe is headed in the right direction. Mit accross the board though. If Spell damage isnt added into this kinda fix then its all for naught. Resists to. Major resistability and absorbtion of spell damage is a must. If we cant heal our damage then dont make us take the same amount of damage.

bartb

05-01-2010, 09:02 AM

<cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guardians are the most defensive/survivable tank. They have group HP buffs, and defensive buffs. They have the most defensive temps of any class in the game. They have more stoneskins and damage avoidance skills than anyone.</blockquote>You are arong about the survivability. Guardian's lack FD and escape, which are two of the best survivability tools in the game. They also have the worst healing abitility of any fighter. Solo Guardians are not in the same league as SKs regarding survivability.</blockquote>ummm sk's cant use fd or escape in bg's.

Tyrion

05-05-2010, 06:13 PM

As a Guardian, the easiest fix is to increase the effectiveness of Arena Endurance on the Stamina line. Pretty much every Guardian takes Stamina for the block and DA, so instead of a pathetic 20% health restored via power usage, increase it to 200%, if not 300%. If it was 200%, you'd be gaining anywhere from 130 to almost 400 health with each CA. Pretty good, consistent healing based on CA usage. Still easily overcome when facing multiple foes, and in PVE, the healing is very minor in raids and heroic zones./shrug.

Yimway

05-05-2010, 06:24 PM

<cite>Tyrion wrote:</cite><blockquote>As a Guardian, the easiest fix is to increase the effectiveness of Arena Endurance on the Stamina line. Pretty much every Guardian takes Stamina for the block and DA, so instead of a pathetic 20% health restored via power usage, increase it to 200%, if not 300%. If it was 200%, you'd be gaining anywhere from 130 to almost 400 health with each CA. Pretty good, consistent healing based on CA usage. Still easily overcome when facing multiple foes, and in PVE, the healing is very minor in raids and heroic zones.</blockquote>It's not a bad idea, but remember that line is shared with zerkers that already have significant healing abilities.Whatever is adjusted has to affect just Guards and not warriors.

Tehom

05-05-2010, 06:42 PM

<cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote> 4) Adjust the mitigation curve for guards only - This idea I like best. Basically adjust the diminishing rewards curve to run to 90% for guards and leave other fighters (who have heals) at 80%. Cutting the amount of damage you can inflict on the class potentially in half. Since this has far reaching impact in pve, a shortcut to this is just to put a 50% base damage reduction on the class defensive stance in pvp only. The class will still go down, probably still faster than zerkers, but will have more reasonable survivability in pvp combat.</blockquote>This I believe is headed in the right direction. Mit accross the board though. If Spell damage isnt added into this kinda fix then its all for naught. Resists to. Major resistability and absorbtion of spell damage is a must. If we cant heal our damage then dont make us take the same amount of damage.</blockquote>If mages are remotely a threat to you in their current state then you are simply undergeared. You should be able to /afk and ignore most mages if you have stonewill gear and appropriate resists/toughness.

Shorcon

05-05-2010, 07:03 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tyrion wrote:</cite><blockquote>As a Guardian, the easiest fix is to increase the effectiveness of Arena Endurance on the Stamina line. Pretty much every Guardian takes Stamina for the block and DA, so instead of a pathetic 20% health restored via power usage, increase it to 200%, if not 300%. If it was 200%, you'd be gaining anywhere from 130 to almost 400 health with each CA. Pretty good, consistent healing based on CA usage. Still easily overcome when facing multiple foes, and in PVE, the healing is very minor in raids and heroic zones.</blockquote>It's not a bad idea, but remember that line is shared with zerkers that already have significant healing abilities.Whatever is adjusted has to affect just Guards and not warriors.</blockquote>This is a great idea but like Atan says it can only be an effect for the guardian. This unlike other heals and life taps though could be overcome through kiting. I still like this idea though.

Valind

05-05-2010, 11:09 PM

You call 10 triggers of 2.8% hitpoints significant? News flash: The majority of my zerker's 'HEALS' actually come from ward and heal procs on his gear. Every tank has access to all of them.Blood Rage does heal for a bit (140-209 is the listed amount in PvP 33% chance to trigger when hit in melee), but it is reduced in pvp combat and acording to ACT, averages less than 200 even after crit modification.When you're doing your job as a tank, you are taunting everyone onto you. Which means you get hit, which means you get Mutilation procs on you -> less heals. Looks good on paper, in practise, zerkers themselves dont really heal for that much once Battle Frenzy is gone. Its all the procs.Just for kicks and giggles I pulled up some logs in ACT: This fight was 9 minutes 26 seconds long against Tenka and his group.Stonewill 23% (proc)Ward of the Everdark 19% (proc)Berserk 17%Fatal Lifetap 8% (proc)Sparkling Shield 7% (proc)Battle Frenzy 6%Adrenal Flow 6%Persevere 6%Death's Door 6%Eidolic Savior 2%Madness 1%Arena Endurance 0% (915 damage total)Procs made up 56% of my healing. 12% was death-saves and 2% was the mystic's pet thingy. Tenka's numbers were similar, except he had more Fatal Lifetap procs and Unholy Strike and Voracious Soul from an SK in his group.Total healing FROM me: 225555 | 398.51 heals/secTotal heals ON me: 412198 | 728.27 heals/secIf you take the procs out its more like 170 heals/sec take the deathsaves out and its more like 145/sec. Anyone here have trouble breaking 145 damage per second?

Shorcon

05-06-2010, 05:26 PM

<cite>Valindor wrote:</cite><blockquote>You call 10 triggers of 2.8% hitpoints significant? News flash: The majority of my zerker's 'HEALS' actually come from ward and heal procs on his gear. Every tank has access to all of them.Blood Rage does heal for a bit (140-209 is the listed amount in PvP 33% chance to trigger when hit in melee), but it is reduced in pvp combat and acording to ACT, averages less than 200 even after crit modification.When you're doing your job as a tank, you are taunting everyone onto you. Which means you get hit, which means you get Mutilation procs on you -> less heals. Looks good on paper, in practise, zerkers themselves dont really heal for that much once Battle Frenzy is gone. Its all the procs.Just for kicks and giggles I pulled up some logs in ACT: This fight was 9 minutes 26 seconds long against Tenka and his group.Stonewill 23% (proc)Ward of the Everdark 19% (proc)Berserk 17%Fatal Lifetap 8% (proc)Sparkling Shield 7% (proc)Battle Frenzy 6%Adrenal Flow 6%Persevere 6%Death's Door 6%Eidolic Savior 2%Madness 1%Arena Endurance 0% (915 damage total)Procs made up 56% of my healing. 12% was death-saves and 2% was the mystic's pet thingy. Tenka's numbers were similar, except he had more Fatal Lifetap procs and Unholy Strike and Voracious Soul from an SK in his group.Total healing FROM me: 225555 | 398.51 heals/secTotal heals ON me: 412198 | 728.27 heals/secIf you take the procs out its more like 170 heals/sec take the deathsaves out and its more like 145/sec. Anyone here have trouble breaking 145 damage per second?</blockquote>Please dont tell me that gear is the reason zerkers are so dominate in BG. I am fully geared with all the lifetap gear available. Even switched the jewelry after the resist nerf. Oih. I really hate how some people dumb up the facts. Total heals from me in bg is ussualy around 20k or so. Big difference there I see. You get 200k heal due to your ability to actualy proc your gear through survivability. I dont.

Yimway

05-06-2010, 06:13 PM

<cite>Valindor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Stonewill 23% (proc)Ward of the Everdark 19% (proc)Berserk 17%Fatal Lifetap 8% (proc)Sparkling Shield 7% (proc)Battle Frenzy 6%Adrenal Flow 6%Persevere 6%Death's Door 6%Eidolic Savior 2%Madness 1%Arena Endurance 0% (915 damage total)Procs made up 56% of my healing. 12% was death-saves and 2% was the mystic's pet thingy. Tenka's numbers were similar, except he had more Fatal Lifetap procs and Unholy Strike and Voracious Soul from an SK in his group.Total healing FROM me: 225555 | 398.51 heals/secTotal heals ON me: 412198 | 728.27 heals/sec</blockquote>Ok, so thru your class abilities you healed roughly 100000 hp, and I'm guessing you were running at around 20k hp total, so you just healed for 5x your max health on one fight from class abilities. Or was it only 4x your hp pool in one fight?Now, also factor adrenaline base damage reduction in there.Now look at how much I heal myself from class abilities in the same fight - 0hp, 15k hp if my death save happend to be up.Don't see a small survivability difference?Even if you some all damage I stoneskin over the same durration, that wont even come close to just your adrenaline running along, much less the rest of the heals.

Shorcon

05-10-2010, 06:24 PM

I believe that after all posts are read herein you can see the way underpowered guardian as FACT. This is not just pvp but both pvp and pve content. Please get our guardians some love dev's.

Valind

05-11-2010, 04:19 AM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, so thru your class abilities you healed roughly 100000 hp, and I'm guessing you were running at around 20k hp total, so you just healed for 5x your max health on one fight from class abilities. Or was it only 4x your hp pool in one fight?Now, also factor adrenaline base damage reduction in there.Now look at how much I heal myself from class abilities in the same fight - 0hp, 15k hp if my death save happend to be up.Don't see a small survivability difference?Even if you some all damage I stoneskin over the same durration, that wont even come close to just your adrenaline running along, much less the rest of the heals. </blockquote>A few things you're probably intentionally ignoring.1. That was a 10 minute fight. I used my class abilities to heal myself for 4x my life pool... and it took 10 minutes to do it. Hardly going to change the outcome of a short fight.2. Those class abilities only had time to heal for that much because I was kept alive by a healer and by ward/heal procs which are available to ANYONE. Those class abilities are not enough, not even close to enough to keep me alive in PvP. Just like guardians, I gotta have a healer or i pop in seconds.3. Yes, adrenaline reduces incoming damage... but so does Tower of Stone, so does Last Man Standing. So does Dragoon Reflexes, so does Sentinel Sphere. If you're goign to count Adrenaline as damage reduction, then all those dozens of stoneskins that guardians get have to be counted as well.Its a proven FACT that guardians take damage better tahn any other tank. Its a proven FACT that guardians are miles ahead of all the toher tanks when it comes to locking down enemy groups. Its also a proven FACT that all tanks need a healer to keep them alive in BG matches. What do we get from all that? Well the guardians are the best at taking hits and at making other poeple hit them. They also provide the largest benefits in terms of survivability for their group. The only areas they are weak in are DPS and heals. If you've gotta have a healer with you anyways, self-heals don't really matter and if you've got a group, then your DPS doesn't really matter.So looking at it that way, guardians are actually the BEST tank to have in your PvP group.

Notsovilepriest

05-11-2010, 04:22 AM

<cite>Valindor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, so thru your class abilities you healed roughly 100000 hp, and I'm guessing you were running at around 20k hp total, so you just healed for 5x your max health on one fight from class abilities. Or was it only 4x your hp pool in one fight?Now, also factor adrenaline base damage reduction in there.Now look at how much I heal myself from class abilities in the same fight - 0hp, 15k hp if my death save happend to be up.Don't see a small survivability difference?Even if you some all damage I stoneskin over the same durration, that wont even come close to just your adrenaline running along, much less the rest of the heals. </blockquote>A few things you're probably intentionally ignoring.1. That was a 10 minute fight. I used my class abilities to heal myself for 4x my life pool... and it took 10 minutes to do it. Hardly going to change the outcome of a short fight.2. Those class abilities only had time to heal for that much because I was kept alive by a healer and by ward/heal procs which are available to ANYONE. Those class abilities are not enough, not even close to enough to keep me alive in PvP. Just like guardians, I gotta have a healer or i pop in seconds.3. Yes, adrenaline reduces incoming damage... but so does Tower of Stone, so does Last Man Standing. So does Dragoon Reflexes, so does Sentinel Sphere. If you're goign to count Adrenaline as damage reduction, then all those dozens of stoneskins that guardians get have to be counted as well.Its a proven FACT that guardians take damage better tahn any other tank. Its a proven FACT that guardians are miles ahead of all the toher tanks when it comes to locking down enemy groups. Its also a proven FACT that all tanks need a healer to keep them alive in BG matches. What do we get from all that? Well the guardians are the best at taking hits and at making other poeple hit them. They also provide the largest benefits in terms of survivability for their group. The only areas they are weak in are DPS and heals. If you've gotta have a healer with you anyways, self-heals don't really matter and if you've got a group, then your DPS doesn't really matter.So looking at it that way, guardians are actually the BEST tank to have in your PvP group.</blockquote>I agree with the agro, but taking damage better is not true at all. Adrenaline is a better ability than all those others combined from guardians really.

Valind

05-11-2010, 04:29 AM

And will quickly see you with no power left if you use it. There are down sides to it. Downside's to guard stoneskins? Not one. They're also up alot more often, you will get 3-4 Tower of Stone's for every adrenaline. Adrenaline will also stop working if you ever stop being berserk (doesn't happen very often, but it does happen).While on the face of it Adrenaline is very nice, its not quite as black and white as you make it out to be.

dellaripa

05-11-2010, 02:10 PM

Not to throw a curveball in this argument, but after playing healer in hundreds of PUG BFs, I've come to the conclusion that Warriors are my preference for main tank.The most important thing in a BG is to keep #1 alive (me). Most often I'm the solo healer and as more and more people gear up and figure it out so to say, the healer is often the first target. The sheer amount of tauntage Guards and Zerkers put out really make a difference, especially when one loose assassin can explode me in a few hits. I'm not sayin g Crusaders can't taunt, they can, but at a lower rate than Warriors.Truth be told though, all plate tanks seem to take damage very well. I never seem to have difficulty keeping them alive(keeping everyone else alive is a little harder). Perhaps it seems guards do take slightly less damage than zerkers who take less than crusaders, but the difference, if there is any, is slight. What kills groups are massive AE spikes and loose, untaunted opponent PCs. The first is unavoidable, the second is a function of taunts.I do think Guards might need some tweaking for solo play, but I think they're pretty beastly in a group.

Shorcon

05-11-2010, 04:28 PM

<cite>dellaripa wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not to throw a curveball in this argument, but after playing healer in hundreds of PUG BFs, I've come to the conclusion that Warriors are my preference for main tank.The most important thing in a BG is to keep #1 alive (me). Most often I'm the solo healer and as more and more people gear up and figure it out so to say, the healer is often the first target. The sheer amount of tauntage Guards and Zerkers put out really make a difference, especially when one loose assassin can explode me in a few hits. I'm not sayin g Crusaders can't taunt, they can, but at a lower rate than Warriors.Truth be told though, all plate tanks seem to take damage very well. I never seem to have difficulty keeping them alive(keeping everyone else alive is a little harder). Perhaps it seems guards do take slightly less damage than zerkers who take less than crusaders, but the difference, if there is any, is slight. What kills groups are massive AE spikes and loose, untaunted opponent PCs. The first is unavoidable, the second is a function of taunts.I do think Guards might need some tweaking for solo play, but I think they're pretty beastly in a group.</blockquote>Ok. first and foremost, they can tauntlock moreso than we can. The problem you are seeing as a healer is that the crusaders dont need you. They can survive without you. Why protect the healer when they can just CA and rack up insane damage and heals for themselves? You have know idea how easy it is for a SK to pull all enemy in a much larger range than a guardian could ever imagine to target them. You are seeing that as a guardian in particular we need you and with such being the case we taunt for you and try to make a difference on your survivability with hopes that you will do for us what all the lifetaps/heals/deathsaves do for the other tank classes. All classes should depend on other classes making BG a team game. SK/Pali/Zerk/Monk/Bru dont need anyone to BG. They can survive solo without much problem. There are some [Removed for Content] skilled exeptions out there.

dellaripa

05-11-2010, 06:14 PM

<cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dellaripa wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not to throw a curveball in this argument, but after playing healer in hundreds of PUG BFs, I've come to the conclusion that Warriors are my preference for main tank.The most important thing in a BG is to keep #1 alive (me). Most often I'm the solo healer and as more and more people gear up and figure it out so to say, the healer is often the first target. The sheer amount of tauntage Guards and Zerkers put out really make a difference, especially when one loose assassin can explode me in a few hits. I'm not sayin g Crusaders can't taunt, they can, but at a lower rate than Warriors.Truth be told though, all plate tanks seem to take damage very well. I never seem to have difficulty keeping them alive(keeping everyone else alive is a little harder). Perhaps it seems guards do take slightly less damage than zerkers who take less than crusaders, but the difference, if there is any, is slight. What kills groups are massive AE spikes and loose, untaunted opponent PCs. The first is unavoidable, the second is a function of taunts.I do think Guards might need some tweaking for solo play, but I think they're pretty beastly in a group.</blockquote>Ok. first and foremost, they can tauntlock moreso than we can. The problem you are seeing as a healer is that the crusaders dont need you. They can survive without you. Why protect the healer when they can just CA and rack up insane damage and heals for themselves? You have know idea how easy it is for a SK to pull all enemy in a much larger range than a guardian could ever imagine to target them. You are seeing that as a guardian in particular we need you and with such being the case we taunt for you and try to make a difference on your survivability with hopes that you will do for us what all the lifetaps/heals/deathsaves do for the other tank classes. All classes should depend on other classes making BG a team game. SK/Pali/Zerk/Monk/Bru dont need anyone to BG. They can survive solo without much problem. There are some [Removed for Content] skilled exeptions out there.</blockquote>I agree. But what I'm seeing, as people are gearing up in toughness gear and the non-pvp people are getting used to actually PvPing, the difficulty of actually healing in BGs is going up. Most BGs have turned into a game of 'pick off the healer'. This is where the value, to a healer like me, of a good main tank, is realized. When I'm paired with two equalish geared tanks, one being a Warrior, the other a Crusader, I'm following the Warrior. If the crusader wants to go out and solo, that's his business.But you're right, there are some extremely beastly Crusaders who pretty much don't need heals. Nothing you can do about that except raise the issue and hope someone listens. The top ones, who are geared and AAd out, are without a doubt the fiercest classes in PvP. My point is, that I'm tired of hearing people trash Warriors as being "garbage". From my perspective they're far form that.

spudsmckenzie2

05-11-2010, 07:54 PM

so what your telling us dellaripa in a nutshell is that rather than riding in the backseat of an f-15 (sk) you would prefer to travel with the guardian on the shortbus? <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />-

Valind

05-12-2010, 01:05 AM

<cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok. first and foremost, they can tauntlock moreso than we can. The problem you are seeing as a healer is that the crusaders dont need you. They can survive without you. Why protect the healer when they can just CA and rack up insane damage and heals for themselves? You have know idea how easy it is for a SK to pull all enemy in a much larger range than a guardian could ever imagine to target them. You are seeing that as a guardian in particular we need you and with such being the case we taunt for you and try to make a difference on your survivability with hopes that you will do for us what all the lifetaps/heals/deathsaves do for the other tank classes. All classes should depend on other classes making BG a team game. SK/Pali/Zerk/Monk/Bru dont need anyone to BG. They can survive solo without much problem. There are some [Removed for Content] skilled exeptions out there.</blockquote>This is not a pick-on-the-guardian expansion. Your poor-little-me act is getting old. Not to mention how much disinformation you are spreading.1. Guardians are the best, bar none, at taunt locking people. They have the best passive taunts, they have the fastest recast group taunt, they have 2 group taunts, they will be getting (or already do have) a group de-taunt. They also have 2 single-target taunts. Reinforcements means that anyone they hit will be locked onto them. I'm sorry but if you think that ANYONE has more taunting power than a guardian, you're deluding yourself.2. Guardians have access to just as much ward and heal proc gear as any other tank. They'll probably even get it to trigger more often because of their taunting power. Yes, they lack the self-heal abilities of other tanks, but they make up for it in other areas, namely preventing damage in the first place.3. Other tanks cannot go and win in BGs on their own. Yes, crusaders can put out alot of heals, but if a full group gets onto one, its going to die. Same deal with monks and bruisers. Zerkers can (until the next update) keep themselves alive for 30 seconds if you're stupid about it. But Battle Frenzy can be dispelled and it isnt up all the time. It also doesn't trigger off spells, so all you have to do is back off and let your mages deal with the zerker.I agree with the person above, when Im playing my healer, I want a guardian. If there isn't a guard available, then I'll take any of the other plate tanks.

Avirodar

05-12-2010, 03:05 AM

<cite>Valindor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree with the person above, when Im playing my healer, I want a guardian. If there isn't a guard available, then I'll take any of the other plate tanks.</blockquote>As a healer (main), if I see the other team only has a Guardian as tank, I know I will have less agro lock issues than if they were an SK, Zerker or Paladin of equal gear and skill.As a healer (main), if I see the other team only has a Guardian as tank, I know the Guardian will die easier than an SK, Zerker, or Paladin of equal gear and skill.I am yet to see any Guardian in BGs to make me believe otherwise, and I have played plenty.If of equal gear and skill, I would take a Zerker, SK or Paladin over a Guardian, any day.

LardLord

05-12-2010, 03:43 AM

When a Berserker, Crusader, or Brawler taunts me, I try to get my target back on a healer or DPSer. When a Guardian taunts me, I typically just kill it because it drops so fast. /shrugMaybe the Guards I play against aren't as well geared or as well played as the other fighters I see, but that's just honestly what I do, heh.

Enoe

05-12-2010, 04:38 AM

my main used to be guard and he was a beast in pvp grp or solo... back in rok.Time to remove dust from him and lvl it up for BG's only to prove you wrong. Guard can be amazing grp tank.See you out there in couple weeks - look for Nagafen.Enoe of Purity

Vlahkmaak

05-12-2010, 05:22 AM

<cite>Tubby@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can't believe the level of idiocy coming from some people in this thread.First, to the person who mentioned FD and Evac being amazing SK survivability skills...THEY DON'T WORK IN BATTLEGROUNDS. Let me repeat, THEY DON'T WORK, both are DISABLED.Second, to the people who claim Guards have limited taunts and die fast, FIND A HEALER. It boggles the mind to even see this, do you people not check the little pvp box to see what your abilities do???Listen carefully now, SK's are the only plate tank class to have no reactive taunt. Let me say this again, Guards have a 50 percent taunt on hit, zerks get a 20 percent, and amends is a reactive taunt for Paladins on a group member of their choice.SKs never got one, we had horrible, horrible, horrible agro issues before our mythical. Hell pre TSO we had horrible EVERYTHING.Why do guards die so fast and tanks that can heal don't in BGs? Because 9 times out of 10 you aren't near a healer, or they suck, period. Compounding that issue: Guards taunt SO WELL in pvp, that when they taunt, EVERYONE gets locked onto them...50% on incoming damage taunt lock = godly. So, you get more damage incoming to you then the other tanks, because you taunt better, and without the heals to back it up you go down FAST.Seriously, this insanity and jealously on the ability to stay alive for 20-30s while your group slowly gets killed around you needs to stop, because with a guard tanking, NO ONE should die before you! Stop complaining that your class is DOING ITS JOB WELL, and find a healer who doesn't suck to follow you around.Guards have more mit and avoidance than the other plate tanks, if you can't handle the heat that your far superior taunts bring you, then switch classes, otherwise make some healer friends who don't dislike you too much to follow you around.</blockquote>This.In a grp guardians do just fine.

TuinalOfTheNexus

05-12-2010, 08:50 AM

It's also often the case that people mistake a gear imbalance for a class imbalance. A ring of repulsion, for example, is pretty godlike in PvP when there are a lot of melee dps around, and coupled with a lot of other ward proc gear can make for a virtually unkillable tank, but when people see a Crusader or Zerker wearing this they assume it's the class rather than the gear.It's also true a well-played Guard in a coordinated group is one of the best tank classes. But they do suck solo compared to SKs, no question. I see so often scrub SKs that don't even both taunting and just run round trying to get a high K/D while losing the match. Really it's a simple choice, if you want to group PvP properly and have a real impact in places like Smugglers, play a Guard, if you want to solo and play for kills without having much impact on the outcome of the match, go SK. Think the issue is more that people were never told this was how it was going to be, and the difficulty and effort involved in gearing a tank, coupled with all the AAs you'd need, doesn't make switching straightforward.Time for archetype betrayal, perhaps?

Feldorm

05-12-2010, 09:15 AM

<cite>TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's also often the case that people mistake a gear imbalance for a class imbalance. A ring of repulsion, for example, is pretty godlike in PvP when there are a lot of melee dps around, and coupled with a lot of other ward proc gear can make for a virtually unkillable tank, but when people see a Crusader or Zerker wearing this they assume it's the class rather than the gear.It's also true a well-played Guard in a coordinated group is one of the best tank classes. But they do suck solo compared to SKs, no question. I see so often scrub SKs that don't even both taunting and just run round trying to get a high K/D while losing the match. Really it's a simple choice, if you want to group PvP properly and have a real impact in places like Smugglers, play a Guard, if you want to solo and play for kills without having much impact on the outcome of the match, go SK. Think the issue is more that people were never told this was how it was going to be, and the difficulty and effort involved in gearing a tank, coupled with all the AAs you'd need, doesn't make switching straightforward.Time for archetype betrayal, perhaps?</blockquote>Couldn't disagree more. What makes guardians good in Den? They can't survive against large groups of enemy players like a crusader. Guardians can't top the dps like a sk can either.Tbh I do expect crusaders to be better in bg than a guard, due to the nature of the class, however they should surely have to make some sacrifice to heals or survivability, not be amazing in both categories.

Enoe

05-12-2010, 11:36 AM

i tell u a pvp story about guardian taunt locks.Back in rok i was playing on venekor. Every nite we grouped for some pvp ownage in kp/jw/kj - yea back then u traveled to get kills not only zerg on dox or tg. Anyway as every nite we started with 2 healers (zauz/mystine) alpinestar ranger snoopdevious lock and last could be ragefist on monk or ilu (sorry fogrot name been 2 years)after some traveling and many kills we got like x2-3 freeps chasing us from zone to zone. Finally on kp dox we picked fight with them. 30 sec of fight was ok but then 2 locks freeps had started heavy aoe and i went ld... (soft one for 30 sec or so w/o crash) I was sill on vent hearing their all assist, cure commands and didnt have heart to tell them: sorry guys i went LD game over. After 30 sec (or so) i came back from ld still in our grp (only grp name bugged) and i found my grp still in carnage killing last of freeps. When fight was over i told them what happened and they didnt belive me cause all the time ALL freeps were me - GUARDIAN. With 2 outstanding healers it was just easy fight.And this is exactly what u expect from pvp tank - not awesome dps, not self heals, fd/evac or other crap - u expect them to lock everyone on themself until youd dps will do the job. And guardians are just a kings on this field.I changed class to sk for raiding reasons but all the time i missed my guardian. Now time to play it again <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 2 lvs and 8 aa today already <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

dellaripa

05-12-2010, 02:12 PM

<cite>Enoe wrote:</cite><blockquote>And this is exactly what u expect from pvp tank - not awesome dps, not self heals, fd/evac or other crap - u expect them to lock everyone on themself until youd dps will do the job. And guardians are just a kings on this field</blockquote>Exactly.

Shorcon

05-12-2010, 04:58 PM

<cite>Valindor wrote:</cite><blockquote>2. Guardians have access to just as much ward and heal proc gear as any other tank. They'll probably even get it to trigger more often because of their taunting power. Yes, they lack the self-heal abilities of other tanks, but they make up for it in other areas, namely preventing damage in the first place.</blockquote>Wow Good one. Who is out there misinforming? I like the way you incorperated gear into the first sentence. None of this adds up to anything. Guardians are [Removed for Content]. Fact. They make up for the non ability to heal in there ability to avoid damage? Really? Anyone else agree with this guy?

Shorcon

05-12-2010, 05:04 PM

<cite>Valindor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok. first and foremost, they can tauntlock moreso than we can. The problem you are seeing as a healer is that the crusaders dont need you. They can survive without you. Why protect the healer when they can just CA and rack up insane damage and heals for themselves? You have know idea how easy it is for a SK to pull all enemy in a much larger range than a guardian could ever imagine to target them. You are seeing that as a guardian in particular we need you and with such being the case we taunt for you and try to make a difference on your survivability with hopes that you will do for us what all the lifetaps/heals/deathsaves do for the other tank classes. All classes should depend on other classes making BG a team game. SK/Pali/Zerk/Monk/Bru dont need anyone to BG. They can survive solo without much problem. There are some [Removed for Content] skilled exeptions out there.</blockquote>This is not a pick-on-the-guardian expansion. Your poor-little-me act is getting old. Not to mention how much disinformation you are spreading.1. Guardians are the best, bar none, at taunt locking people. They have the best passive taunts, they have the fastest recast group taunt, they have 2 group taunts, they will be getting (or already do have) a group de-taunt. They also have 2 single-target taunts. Reinforcements means that anyone they hit will be locked onto them. I'm sorry but if you think that ANYONE has more taunting power than a guardian, you're deluding yourself.2. Guardians have access to just as much ward and heal proc gear as any other tank. They'll probably even get it to trigger more often because of their taunting power. Yes, they lack the self-heal abilities of other tanks, but they make up for it in other areas, namely preventing damage in the first place.3. Other tanks cannot go and win in BGs on their own. Yes, crusaders can put out alot of heals, but if a full group gets onto one, its going to die. Same deal with monks and bruisers. Zerkers can (until the next update) keep themselves alive for 30 seconds if you're stupid about it. But Battle Frenzy can be dispelled and it isnt up all the time. It also doesn't trigger off spells, so all you have to do is back off and let your mages deal with the zerker.I agree with the person above, when Im playing my healer, I want a guardian. If there isn't a guard available, then I'll take any of the other plate tanks.</blockquote>And to top it off sk only gets 3 death saves, grave sac, something blessing which heals insane damage and is up at all times. I dont know what I was thinking. The fact that they dps 3 to 5x's more than any gaurdian could hope to definitly makes them underpowered right?You started this conversation with "Your poor-little-me act is getting old. Not to mention how much disinformation you are spreading." Wow.

Shorcon

05-12-2010, 05:07 PM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>When a Berserker, Crusader, or Brawler taunts me, I try to get my target back on a healer or DPSer. When a Guardian taunts me, I typically just kill it because it drops so fast. /shrugMaybe the Guards I play against aren't as well geared or as well played as the other fighters I see, but that's just honestly what I do, heh.</blockquote>I am fully bg geared with all heal proc gear available and you sir kill me just like the rest.

dellaripa

05-12-2010, 05:11 PM

<cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>When a Berserker, Crusader, or Brawler taunts me, I try to get my target back on a healer or DPSer. When a Guardian taunts me, I typically just kill it because it drops so fast. /shrugMaybe the Guards I play against aren't as well geared or as well played as the other fighters I see, but that's just honestly what I do, heh.</blockquote>I am fully bg geared with all heal proc gear available and you sir kill me just like the rest.</blockquote>He aint going to dent the guardian with a live healer at his side. The optimal word here is "live".

Avirodar

05-12-2010, 06:32 PM

<cite>Enoe wrote:</cite><blockquote>i tell u a pvp story about guardian taunt locks.Back in rok i was playing on venekor. Every nite we grouped for some pvp ownage in kp/jw/kj - yea back then u traveled to get kills not only zerg on dox or tg. Anyway as every nite we started with 2 healers (zauz/mystine) alpinestar ranger snoopdevious lock and last could be ragefist on monk or ilu (sorry fogrot name been 2 years)after some traveling and many kills we got like x2-3 freeps chasing us from zone to zone. Finally on kp dox we picked fight with them. 30 sec of fight was ok but then 2 locks freeps had started heavy aoe and i went ld... (soft one for 30 sec or so w/o crash) I was sill on vent hearing their all assist, cure commands and didnt have heart to tell them: sorry guys i went LD game over. After 30 sec (or so) i came back from ld still in our grp (only grp name bugged) and i found my grp still in carnage killing last of freeps. When fight was over i told them what happened and they didnt belive me cause all the time ALL freeps were me - GUARDIAN. With 2 outstanding healers it was just easy fight.And this is exactly what u expect from pvp tank - not awesome dps, not self heals, fd/evac or other crap - u expect them to lock everyone on themself until youd dps will do the job. And guardians are just a kings on this field.I changed class to sk for raiding reasons but all the time i missed my guardian. Now time to play it again <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> 2 lvs and 8 aa today already <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>No one cares what you did on some random occasion, to some random scrubs, back in ROK.ROK has been, and gone.TSO has been, and gone.We are now in SF. There has been a lot of code/mechanics changes, class changes, and AA changes.The year is 2010, incase you were not aware.

Vlahkmaak

05-13-2010, 10:26 PM

<cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Valindor wrote:</cite><blockquote>2. Guardians have access to just as much ward and heal proc gear as any other tank. They'll probably even get it to trigger more often because of their taunting power. Yes, they lack the self-heal abilities of other tanks, but they make up for it in other areas, namely preventing damage in the first place.</blockquote>Wow Good one. Who is out there misinforming? I like the way you incorperated gear into the first sentence. None of this adds up to anything. Guardians are [Removed for Content]. Fact. They make up for the non ability to heal in there ability to avoid damage? Really? Anyone else agree with this guy?</blockquote>Yes - I agree with this. A pvp guardian can have a ward proc on virtually every piece of jewelry. The prob is not guardians. The problem is badly geared guardians compounding the real problem of tank balance in pvp AND the switch from crit mit effective pvp to toughness, hereinafter "failness" based pvp. This statement is ONLY true for a guardian in a proper group: Guard, dirge, coercer, templar, shaman, heavy caster/melee DPS or a dps spec'd fury/warden/inqy. With these classes pre SF my guard felt truelly godly in the middle of the KP zerg and or roaming. Basically a guard in a proper MT set up will never die unless someone makes a mistake or the toher grp is better than you. Pre "failness" pvp with the crit mit effective pvp the only classes I knew for sure I would die to were exile Cigam (hes a class unto himself), better/= geared troubs, sks, and better/= geared pallies, and some rangers (mainly due to fettering poison being OP in pvp due to cure mecahnics. Yes I use fettering on my ranger and it is OP just like focus aim was pre fix to focus aim). I ran solo alot on my guardian and did well meaning I did not win every fight but when I did loose the other guy was usually in the red 1:1. I am not gonna recount tales of counting coup on grps of 2 or more lesser geared classes because we can all take out poorly geared players and pound on our chests all day/night if we wanted too: Mee gud, me killed 17 greens, hmm, gud dead Q gimmie lots of quested monies.How many guards did you see running around participating in PVP in any form Pre SF: on Venny there was me, and me. When the zerg started a few more came out but honestly I can think of only 3 guardians (myself and Butcher from FP and Halistives or similiar from Q side) were defacto the ONLY guards I ever saw out at any time during TSO roaming in pvp. I cannot speak for Naggy how many guards were out in late RoK through TSO as I was not yet on this server but since the guards I remembered fighting, and having fun with 1:1 with even loosing too, back when I was a young guard during KoS eara all soiled themselves and betrayed the class for SKs sneeze, ahchENOE. I really don't know if any guards on Naggy PVP'd.The FACT that you see more guards out and about testifies that the class is not as broken as it was during previous x-pacs as all these fair weather guardians would have us believe. One - one a guardian cannot currently kill an equally geared crusader. This is true. I defy anyone to prove me wrong. Before the switch from crit mit, borked resist mechanics, and the introduction of failness (toughness) a properly set up grp based around a guardian could defeat a crusader grp. The crusader grp will put out more damage but the guardian grp can out heal and out survive the crusaders grp. It basically came down to the most power efficient grp winning. This STILL holds true even with the BS "failness" PVP concept for EQUALLY geared/skilled grps regardless of grp MT choice. While a guard can have the same proc gear as a sk, pally, or zerker, those tanks 1:1 have MORE survivability than guardian. In a group our moderate, grp moderate, sentry watch, sentinel sphere, intercede, and never surrender our single target avoidance check all work to keep our group safe through multiple avoidance checks. Our grp stone skin mixed with the dirge percussion of stone gives our grps alot of stone skin checks. Moderate (used on your healers during pvp) can quickly be recast and applied to someone taking spike damage for additional avoidance checks. Add in coercer aggro snap, templar sanctuary, shaman wards, and if using the third healer fast druid heals our grp is [Removed for Content] near unkillable. All this goes away 1:1. Our stone skins reset slowly, mitigation on current pvp gear sucks compared to TSO gear, and crusaders can use spells to quickly decimate a guardian. In a grp (I play a pally and have a baby SK btw so don't respond with how useless these classes are or that guards are OP to them in grp on grp they are not) guards are just fine vs = geared grps. BEFORE the resist fix this was not the case. BEFORE the resist fix casters I could destroy (meaning not equal geared) casters 1 on 2-3. After SF (the day of launch and until resist fix they were decimating me in 1-2 shots. I am talking poorly geared toons in late TSO. Good casters were always hard for a guard 1:1 as we had to work really hard to maximize our TOS and get close enough to land blows. Even with full pvp gear good casters like Izba were impossible/near impossible 1:1 vs a guard. Izba hit like a mack truck even when I fought with maxed (80%) cold resists Izba's cold based spells landed very very hard. In a grp this was no big problem. However, come SF guards and zerkers faced a huge resist problem (as did other plate tanks but not to the same extent due to healing abilities of other plate tanks and crusaders actually benefitted greatly from the borked resist issue unlike warriros and brawlers). Come SF my gear had not changed, they (the poorly geared casters i was killing last x-pac) had not get better with the release of SF in that first week - they had only gotten the benefit of "failness" based pvp + a very screwy and borked resist mechanic which has since been addressed, and in some cases (EB) completely BS OP spells that got really bad press due to the fact that the completely screwed up resist and lack of crit mit due to "failness" allowed very bad poorly geared green players to occassionally land 30k with 1 spell.Again, the fair weather guardians which just crawled out from whatever rock or SK they were playing for the last two x-pacs are at a HUGE learning and gear discrepency in PVP and 1:1 will be destroyed by almost any class due to this. A gaurdian in a good grp will not die now that the resist issue has been fixed but we WILL take alot more damage than we did in TSO due to "failness." should "failness" be kept 10% failness should be added to the guardian buffs IMO however: (wife calling me to dinner so will edit and complete later). The BEST way (IMO) to fix PVP for all classes would be to:1.) Get rid of "failness" and re-enable crit mit.2.) Allow a true PVP based gear progression for Freeport, Qeynos, AND exilies.3.) Reverse the disabling of pvp server procs in PVP/BGs and do not consider disabling PVE raid procs in PVP/BGs. 4.) Add 10% toughness to our grp defensive buff in pvp + an additional 10% toughness to defensive stance +25% toughness to our temp mit buff in PVP as we are the defensive tank as pointed out by the crusaders and zerks in this thread. Allow zerks some defensive toughness as their heal is getting nerfed and they, like us, are warriors and share some of the same defensive capabilities.

Yimway

05-14-2010, 12:49 PM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>When a Berserker, Crusader, or Brawler taunts me, I try to get my target back on a healer or DPSer. When a Guardian taunts me, I typically just kill it because it drops so fast. /shrugMaybe the Guards I play against aren't as well geared or as well played as the other fighters I see, but that's just honestly what I do, heh.</blockquote>I do basically the same thing. If any other tank taunts me, I get off it as quickly as I can. If a guard taunts me I stay on it and kill it, cause it just goes down faster than waiting for the target locks to expire.And I play a guard.

Yimway

05-14-2010, 12:54 PM

<cite>Valindor wrote:</cite><blockquote>2. Guardians have access to just as much ward and heal proc gear as any other tank. They'll probably even get it to trigger more often because of their taunting power. Yes, they lack the self-heal abilities of other tanks, but they make up for it in other areas, namely preventing damage in the first place.</blockquote>Go play a guard and come back.You're so far off from reality it isn't even funny. Guard survivability buffs are designed to be effective vs single target raid mobs that hit for 15k+ and relatively infrequently. You know how long 4 ticks of stoneskin last in pvp? How much damage is prevented? A single proc of stonewill is more effective than all the guardian stoneskins combined, as in one proc of Stonewill will prevent far more net damage than all the classes stoneskin abilities.Change guard stoneskins to me durration base damage reducers in pvp, and maybe your arguement would hold water.But the fact ToS blocks 4 hits when your getting hit 10x per second or more isn't terribly consiquential when you parse out its overall effectiveness.

Yimway

05-14-2010, 01:06 PM

<cite>Vlahkmaak@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Again, the fair weather guardians which just crawled out from whatever rock or SK they were playing for the last two x-pacs are at a HUGE learning and gear discrepency in PVP and 1:1 will be destroyed by almost any class due to this. A gaurdian in a good grp will not die now that the resist issue has been fixed but we WILL take alot more damage than we did in TSO due to "failness." should "failness" be kept 10% failness should be added to the guardian buffs IMO however: (wife calling me to dinner so will edit and complete later). </blockquote>Fine post, with solid points. However your post is solid and on target for pvp. It however has little bearing on BG's as the predicate of 'a good grp' is not a reasonable expectation for BG play.In respect to BG's you have to base any arguement on the class on a random spattering of classes thrown together with atleast one person in that group either afk, or incapable of following simple instructions. The number of BG's I can get a healer in my group and to stay in range and press heal buttons is at best 30% of the matches.When placed in that environment, the differences in 1:1 end up being the same differences in the group/raid play in BGs.The free-for-all random spattering of pugers in BG's presents different ballancing issues than crafted pvp groups out on the hunt.

Vlahkmaak

05-14-2010, 01:48 PM

I don't BG - for the past month or more I have been boycotting them as in addition to toughness I think the BGs have been responsible for the destruction of open world pvp. The war fileds might get me to try them again but roaming in less than a guild premade or with the healers I trust from those guilds I have regualry pvp'd with in the past on my guardian I find BGs a waste of time and effort and of little real fun compared to open world pvp. A guardian must be in charge at all times and take responsibility for their tactical situation therefore we should never step into a BG with a less than adequete grp (no solo queing). Duo or trio with fiends we trust might be ok unless the raid leader is a [Removed for Content] who does not understand the basics of class assignments (all to often the reality). Unless SOE is going to spend development time on "balancing" the 4 plate tanks against each other for PVP I find little relevance for BGs on a guardian in a PUR at this time due to the randomness of the BG que. Essentially, balanced IMO would mean any of the 4 plate tanks that come across each other, assuming roughly equal geared and skilled player at the helm, would be an epic fight where the victor wins after both oppenents have utilized all availible life saves, most if not all mana and the victor is standing at 5% health regardelss of class. In essence a guard vs SK 1:1 fight would be equal to a healer/healer fight. Long, drawn out, and based on skill. I do not believe this will ever to be the case in eq2: Perhaps EQ3 will be different should they balance that game around PVP (or whatever the BG concept for EQ3 will be) and PVE.Keep up the good fight Atan, I know you are not one of the fair weathers as I have read most if not all your posts these past years in the guard forums. One of the main issues here is from the start the PVP server changes ahve not affected the PVE servers but now with the addition of BGs PVE perspectives of what PVP should be like is going to affect our PVP servers and some of us fear the worst. For instance, SKs needed alot of PVE love but in PVP SKs ahve always been a fine and dangerous class: their HT even being nerfed on pvp servers because back in DoF they could almost 1 shot almost any lessor geared player . Witness the unholy infusion of the MUCH needed PVE love these past 2 x-pacs and they are more than a force to be reconded with in PVP as a resultant. Again, SKs NEEDED the PVE love (maybe not quite as much as they got) but it seriously affected PVP game play.