Rhoen Theer's Slain Gods...who are they?

[Xalmat]

<p>During the Rhoen Theer fight there are up to four runes you slay to grant him powers.  Each of these runes is named after slain gods.</p><ul><li>Pingyuan Diqu</li><li>Paixao</li><li>Zou Kunnen</li><li>Aniquilacion</li></ul><p>I wonder what kind of gods they were, and what kind of divine influence they had over Norrath.</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>During the Rhoen Theer fight there are up to four runes you slay to grant him powers.  Each of these runes is named after slain gods.</p><ul><li>Pingyuan Diqu</li><li>Paixao</li><li>Zou Kunnen</li><li>Aniquilacion</li></ul><p>I wonder what kind of gods they were, and what kind of divine influence they had over Norrath.</p></blockquote><p>I wonder why 3 of them have Chinese names.</p>

[Rainmare]

<p>well I'd say one of the best ways to figure out thier 'influence' in the planar scheme of things is finding out what kind of powers they give him...and making guesses from there. unless thier names can be translated into something that we can understand as an aspect of reality/planar influence.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p><span>Aniquilacion is very similar to the Spanish word </span><span><strong>aniquilación,</strong> which translated to English means annihilation.</span></p><p>And according to Babelfish, "<span >Zou Kunnen" is Dutch for "Would Be Possible".</span></p>

[Rainmare]

<p>so maybe a previous god/goddess of war and magic there?</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>Paixao is supposedly Portuguese for "Passion" so possibly a lost goddess of Love?</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>Pingyuan Diqu (or 平原 地區 in traditional chinese?) loosely translates to "Plain area", or possibly the equivalent of Grass Territory. It's also the same name as a territory in China. So perhaps the lost god of the Plains, not unlike Karana?</p>

[Maergoth]

<p>I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the Naga we see in Nizara and the final vasty deep zones are the creations of one of these gods, or created in the image of these gods. There was hinting that the first zone was experiments with Botany, the second with animals/monsters and the third with beings of planar descent. They have always been shrouded in mystery and it would make a lot of sense if this was the reason behind it.</p><p>These dieties would all have to be responsible for severe upsets in the natural balance of things.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>Sounds plausible to me, and reason enough for Rhoen Theer to step up and impose his sense of balance.</p>

[Volerin]

<p>What is the names on the runes are not slain gods, but rather messages, much like the doomsday calendar used runes from various planes? </p><p>Just a thought that came to mind as I read the translations of the names.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p><cite>Volerin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What <strong>if </strong>the names on the runes are not slain gods, but rather messages, much like the doomsday calendar used runes from various planes?</p></blockquote><p>Corrected for you.</p><p>Interesting hypothesis.</p>

[Anaogi]

<p>We <em>still</em> don't know squat about where the Wantxia came from, or anything about their culture beyond the small scraps that linger on Mara.  Perhaps Roehn Theer had to take down part or all of their pantheon?</p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>Anaogi@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>We <em>still</em> don't know squat about where the Wantxia came from, or anything about their culture beyond the small scraps that linger on Mara.  Perhaps Roehn Theer had to take down part or all of their pantheon?</p></blockquote><p>All the gods in Norrath belong to the same pathenon. It seems certain gods were eliminated. It also seems all the creations of these gods either eliminated themselves, were eliminated in an event that lead to their patron dietie's demise, subsumed by another diety, or simply forgotten about. It could also be that they are similar to Innoruuk in that they didn't create their own race and really left nothing behind to identify them outside of worshipers. The worshipers seem to have vanished as well if there were any.</p><p>They could even be the patron dieties of the combine empire and the sole reason for its success. While its unlikely as unlikely can get we've got about that much solid information about both subjects. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" /></p><p>Now if your talking about the population of the Mara villages...they are human. So, they were created by the Marr Twins via evolution from Barbarian ancestors just like every other human in Norrath. Their culture, just like the culture in Qeynos, Freeport, Maj Dul, and Paineel was developed by the people that lived there and was more influenced by the occupations of the native people rather than their dieties. Cazic Thule is/was heavly worshiped by the Heritics that ran Paineel. Paineel hardly looks anything like the shard of hate and it have very few similarities between the Heritic's culture and the lizardmen of the Feerrott who also worship Cazic Thule, and the Iksar of Kunark who also heavly worship Cazic Thule. Culture have more to do with day to day life than choice of diety.</p>

[KniteShayd]

<p>tried some anagram generators with them, but got nothing...</p>

[Daine]

<p>Wasn't it stated somewhere that Druzzil Ro, the current goddess of magic, was created by Solusek Ro?  That makes me think that Zou Kunnen might not be a deity of magic, but a deity of fate, although I can't think of a current equivalent.  Of course it's possible that Zou Kunnen was a deity of magic, and Solusek Ro took over the role when Zou Kunnen was killed, then Solusek Ro passed the mantle on to Druzzil upon her creation.  Could definitely see the naiad connected to them somehow; they seem to deal heavily in magic so perhaps they were the creations of Zou Kunnen.</p><p>I like the speculation here, since it's doubtful we'll ever get official lore about them.</p>

[Jait]

<p>I assume the Gods removed Theer for a very good reason.  They wanted to replace certain Gods with their children.   </p><p>The absence of the Gods that Theer destroyed from the Spheres they represented probably gave them the idea.  It's a waste of Lore if they don't follow up with this story.  And it could very well be a setup for things to come.  New Ascensions and such.</p><p>It also seems to help explain the inconsistancy that many of the children (Demigods) didn't lose their power nor were they reabsorbed by the parents when they left Norrath but rather seem to be true Gods despite also being children.  Confusing, I know.</p>

[Rainmare]

<p>which demi-gods are you reffering to? Master Wu is still a demigod, but his plane of influence, Serenity, was reabsorbed by quellious. Vazelle is destroyed. so is Lanys, to our knowledge...or are you reffering to the 'lesser' gods like Druzzil and Sarymn?</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p>"Children" and "Parents" aren't really terms I would use to describe gods and mortals turned into gods. How is it an inconsistancy though? Some demigods just have more power than others. Some primary gods have enough power to save the demigods they created. Quellious for example. She's never been physically harmed or killed. She chose to withdraw her power only because she agreed to do so with all the others who really did need to recover. She had more than enough power to save Master Wu instead of abolish him.</p>

[shadowscale]

<p><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>which demi-gods are you reffering to? Master Wu is still a demigod, but his plane of influence, Serenity, was reabsorbed by quellious. Vazelle is destroyed. so is Lanys, to our knowledge...or are you reffering to the 'lesser' gods like Druzzil and Sarymn?</p></blockquote><p>saryrn is a demi god as well. and last i heard Lanys was being held prisioner in the plane of hate, as a power source for innoruuk.</p><p>and here is a question.... what god created mayong mistmore? considering he seems to have been alive before the current set of gods showed up. and is the last of his kind.</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p>It's Saryrn, FYI.</p><p>We do not find out how Mayong obtained godhood in EQ2. Only that he did. We don't know who did it if anyone did. We don't know if any god created Mayong Mistmoore to begin with.</p>

[Urgol]

Looks like 4 slain gods is a bit too little a number for r.t., taking into consideration the vasteness of the universe and the probable number of dieties in existance on different worlds. Where is the info coming from about the runes being aspects of his victims?

[Cusashorn]

<p><cite>Urgol wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Looks like 4 slain gods is a bit too little a number for r.t., taking into consideration the vasteness of the universe and the probable number of dieties in existance on different worlds. Where is the info coming from about the runes being aspects of his victims?</blockquote><p>Good point. He is the avatar of the Nameless, the god who created existence itself. Who's to say there arn't other gods out there who aren't part of Norrath's pantheon?</p><p>On the other hand, we have no way of knowing that he did. The gods of the Norrathian Pantheon may be all there is to the entire universe. There may be other planets out there, but maybe our gods look over them too, and just don't tell us or have any reason to tell us or connect us to them. If I remember correctly, the lore contained within the Omens of War expansion in EQlive says the dragonoid race that lives on the planet we travel to were created by Veeshan.</p>

[Vaedaer]

<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> If I remember correctly, the lore contained within the Omens of War expansion in EQlive says the dragonoid race that lives on the planet we travel to were created by Veeshan.</p></blockquote><p>Vesagran, which might as well be Veeshan, there was also a story of a dragon that died and his bones formed Kuua or part or something weird like that. It's been too long, but the Dragorn creator was Vesagran.</p><p>I guess i could log on and try to get the book to drop again and check *shrugs*</p>

[Erlandor]

<p>Gods and Demigods...</p><p>You may consider half of the Pantheon "demigods" if you think about those who represend Elemental power...</p><p>Fennin Ro, Tarew Marr...</p><p>Both have children among the pantheon. Erollisi & Mithaniel, Solusek....</p><p>I imagine having read about (in the text that describes the beginning of Lore fomr EQ2, the council where the gods decide to leave norrath) that Quellious herself talks about "even those oh us who sit on the greater planes of elemental power..."</p><p>Which means there are separate "classes" of gods...</p><p>Also the Lore about Roen Theer says that he has been in charge of keeping the Balance, until the gods became greedy and did'nt want him to interfere with their plans...</p><p>So maybe it isn't the whole pantheon who is responsible for his banishing into the void..?</p><p>Or they had a council and argued over it just like with the decision of leaving norrath...</p><p>How ever they got rid of him ( though it seems to be not that hard for a bunch of gods, if we mere mortals could kill him...) - i guess it was just to be able tu influence norrath, gain more power and all this without the risk of the Sentinel as a showstopper...</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p><cite>Erlandor@Valor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Gods and Demigods...</p><p>You may consider half of the Pantheon "demigods" if you think about those who represend Elemental power...</p><p>Fennin Ro, Tarew Marr...</p><p>Both have children among the pantheon. Erollisi & Mithaniel, Solusek....</p><p>I imagine having read about (in the text that describes the beginning of Lore fomr EQ2, the council where the gods decide to leave norrath) that Quellious herself talks about "even those oh us who sit on the greater planes of elemental power..."</p><p>Which means there are separate "classes" of gods...</p><p>Also the Lore about Roen Theer says that he has been in charge of keeping the Balance, until the gods became greedy and did'nt want him to interfere with their plans...</p><p>So maybe it isn't the whole pantheon who is responsible for his banishing into the void..?</p><p>Or they had a council and argued over it just like with the decision of leaving norrath...</p><p>How ever they got rid of him ( though it seems to be not that hard for a bunch of gods, if we mere mortals could kill him...) - i guess it was just to be able tu influence norrath, gain more power and all this without the risk of the Sentinel as a showstopper...</p></blockquote><p>"Demigods" are very expressly stated as being mortals who were turned into gods. There's only about half a dozen mortals who actually became demi-gods compared to the two-dozen+ actual gods in the game.</p>

[Thanriyon Arkhelt]

<p>Whenever I think of ther Theer story, I also got the impression that the gods that imprisoned him pretty much included the entire Norrathian pantheon - But not the Elemental Gods, after all, they created the majority of the pantheon, and for the most part pay it little heed (with some exceptions).</p>

[Hawkmoons]

<p><span style="font-family: "><span style="color: #ffff00;">The gods must have dissolved their pact, for the simple fact Marr is walking around doing things again and placing influence again.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: "><span style="color: #ffff00;">Also there is a lot of new lore in EQ1, if you go into the 2nd to last expansion Vesh is dead 500 years prior to eq1, she is dead in the cosmos, you can see the body.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: "><span style="color: #ffff00;">I also remember reading way back in eq1 lore that Mayong was a original creation and that he had a part in putting the sleeper to rest, in eq1 Darkhollow he was working on becoming full god by his own hand, so obviously achieved it, or is he truly a god? </span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Also Sol Ro is the son of Fennin Ro, makes you wonder where he is as well as the some others?</span></p>

[Rainmare]

<p>that pact was broken a LONG time ago...since EoF when the gods started to vome back to norrath.</p><p>the death of Veeshan in EQ1 is in Seeds of Destruction, and is the result of Discord forces manipulating the timeline, which that whole expansion is about you preventing/fixing.</p><p>Mayong helping with the sleeper as far as anyone knows seemed to be entirely fan fiction. however his godhood in EQ1 came from him basically using norrath's 'hero worship' of him as a catalyst, and even when you 'defeat' him, he turns all the energy used to do that into his ritual and zap, became a God of Blood, and took over ayonae ro's realm of Music...then attempted to invade Sol ro's realm...where mortals stopped him by helping sol ro...who was getting his rear kicked at the time.</p><p>Anashti Sul says that the gods had to unite and face Theer as basically one force, adn they still lost some in the process of removing Theer's weapons from him. adn the reason why mortals can beat him is becuase Theer doesn't have the ability to simply zap mortals dead like he does with the Gods.</p>

[shadowscale]

<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> the lore contained within the Omens of War expansion in EQlive says the dragonoid race that lives on the planet we travel to were created by Veeshan.</p></blockquote><p>exept <span>Vesagran is refered to as male, and Veeshan is refered to as female. then again not sure gender really applyes to gods...</span></p><p>that or nobody actualy bothered to check their atual gender... but then have to wonder how the hell WOULD you ask a dragon deity if you could check their gender....</p><p>oh and Hawkmoon, about half of that is non cannon for EQ2</p><div><span ><a href="../user/profile.m?user_id=288652"><strong><span style="color: #3333ff;"></span></strong></a></span></div>

[kelvmor]

<p>The "Annihilation" of "Passion" "Would Be Possible" upon a "Plain Area."</p><p>Thank you, Yotan.</p>

[Larkverdin]

<p><cite>Vaedaer@Blackburrow wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> If I remember correctly, the lore contained within the Omens of War expansion in EQlive says the dragonoid race that lives on the planet we travel to were created by Veeshan.</p></blockquote><p>Vesagran, which might as well be Veeshan, there was also a story of a dragon that died and his bones formed Kuua or part or something weird like that. It's been too long, but the Dragorn creator was Vesagran.</p><p>I guess i could log on and try to get the book to drop again and check *shrugs*</p></blockquote><p>If I remember this correctly from a post I saw here actually, Vesagran *IS* Veeshan. She's referred to under a different name on Kuua, but it's the same god</p>

[Xalmat]

<p><cite>kelvmor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The "Annihilation" of "Passion" "Would Be Possible" upon a "Plain Area."</p><p>Thank you, Yotan.</p></blockquote><p>Makes sense to me.</p>

[Anaogi]

<p>Still leaves us the issue of what it means.  Though the wheels in my head, they have started a-turnin' on this one.  We'll have to see what else shakes out...</p>

[thajo]

<p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span>Aniquilacion is very similar to the Spanish word </span><span><strong>aniquilación,</strong> which translated to English means annihilation.</span></p><p><span></span></p></blockquote><p>I know which one that is!</p><p>ps. cool thread actually lol</p>

[Maergoth]

<p>Edit, this:</p><p><cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hmm.. Come to think of it, what if THOSE 4 GODS were the ones who imprisoned him? If you guys remember, it took the four most powerful dragons in the claws of Veeshan to imprison the sleeper in his statis. Seeing as how the runes were still there and destroying them not only increases his power but unleashes the true form of Roehn Theer.. that they weren't slain gods at all. He probably talks down upon their efforts, but I would be willing to bet it's the same thing.</p><p>Our current pantheon seems weak compared to what would be required to subdue the godslayer. Perhaps those four gods predated even the elemental gods and was the first attempt by the nameless at creating a pantheon.  It obviously didn't work out and the nameless felt a need to intervene, creating Roehn Theer. The four gods banish theer to the void and turn themselves into runes of power to restrain him, linking their fates together.</p><p>Just doesn't make sense that every god Roehn Theer kills remains powerfully intact and restricting of his power. If anything, he should absorb the power of his slain enemies. I don't see a situation that would make sense for Theer to just leave these runes laying around that, if killed, make him stronger.</p></blockquote>

[ratbast]

<p>@maergoth</p><p>I looked at the runes like they were personal artifacts theer had obtained from killing them (stole their power) and stores. Attacking them unleashes the power back to theer.</p>

[ratbast]

<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">INFO of The Fight Itself: <span style="color: #ff0000;">my comments</span></p> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">Zou Kunnen (dutch: to be possible/to be able) -NW- Front Left – symbol: blue waves - Blue tile effect = Crit bonus + Power drain.Theer buff: ManaBurn - Theer starts the fight with 0% power and will throughout the fight gain a little power over time. When he gets enough he will start to ManaBurn the raid, draining masive ammounts of power from your raid. When you see he has power use any and all power draining abilities you have to assist in dropping it back down. <span style="color: #ff0000;">(looks like great candidate for previous god of magic before druzzil was made, and creator of naiad, behemoth... or possibly ocean lord, blue is also the color of valor and Mithaniel came later)</span></p> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">Paixao (portuegese: passion) - NE - Rear Left – symbol: purple intertwined lines - Purple tile effect = Health to Power conversion.Theer buff: Balanced Judgement - This ability is the most difficult for Theer as it requires people in your raid to locate their polar opposite. The abilities are called Star-charged Soul and Void-charged Soul. The Charged Soul effect can be found easier by looking at your Detrimentals in your raid window and finding either 2 people with an incurable noxious or two people with an incurable elemental on them. The people who both have the incurable noxious have to find one another within 10 seconds and the same goes for the ones with the incurable elemental. If you do not succeed at this, BOTH people with those effects will die. <span style="color: #ff0000;">(I like this deity for god of love before Erollisi was created, the translation and effect fits perfectly with that theme-gotta find your true love before time runs out) like starcrossed lovers romeo and juliet</span></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">Pingyuan Diqu (chinese:plains/grassy area)-SE- Rear Right – symbol: green hillsGreen tile effect = Mitigation increase.Theer buff: Epic Add - Killing this rune will spawn a ghost-like copy of Theer. As a raid you can choose to kill this mob however for the sake of the way to kill 4 rune theer it is best to spawn this mob and just ignore it. Treat it like any other AOE. When the add gets to theer it will explode and hit your raid for 90% of their max hp. It will not kill anyone who is at max health. Which means just make sure everyone is at green just before it blows up. Killing this mob is really not an option and will only hurt your raid later if you intend on working on 4 rune theer. <span style="color: #ff0000;">(I like this guy for alternate name of Xul'Varien and as father of xulous:green hills->pestilence, like dead hills, and it creates ghost add that runs in and aoe's. Imagine this ability built on city of dragon corpses, dragons would be terrified)</span></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">Aniquilacion (spanish: annihilation)-SW - Front Right – symbol: orange crisscrossings -Orange tile effect = Potency and Crit bonus.Theer buff: Curse + Small Heroic Adds - Killing this rune will add a curse as well as 3-4 Heroic fire tornadoes? mobs to this event for every curse. The person with the curse must be atleast 30 meters away from the raid when it expires. If they are too close it will kill anyone nearby. The curse will not kill the player its on. Adds will spawn on the person who has the curse when the curse expires. <span style="color: #ff0000;">(I like this diety for god of flame, before sol ro was made since sol ro wasnt around for the first or second of brell's pacts, and never made any races, could be father of efreeti)</span></p> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">There are also shadowmen adds sometimes.</p> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">Chess squares have temporary alternating runes of these deities, as well as 2 more squares, both with rotating circles with askew rays. I believe these are Order (rezz point) and Chaos (strips buffs).</p> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">As someone stated earlier, 1 possible phrase from combining the translations: The "Annihilation" of "Passion" "Would Be Possible" upon a "Plain Area."</p> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">If I was writing the story of the fallen gods, the age of scale includes brell, 4 dead gods, and veeshan making a pact on norrath while noone else knows about it, veeshan moves on to other worlds, 4 soon-to-be fallen gods declare genocide on abandoned dragons, theer wipes them out for breaking the pact, but leaves their races. Vacancies are created in pantheon. Bert seizes opportunity, wiping out xulous. brell looks for reinforcements against dragons resulting in 1st and 2nd council of the gods. Tarew marr, from water creates subgods of different element: steam. Pretty ballsy thing to do. Atleast Fennin creates in his own element. Later Theer is banished by gods' cooperation and can't enforce pact rules. Theer isnt around to deal with Anashti, so she gets banished by gods cooperation because she created something that threatens everyone's handiwork. Rodcet seizes opportunity. Zek runs around unimpeded while theer is gone, rallosian wars. Theer comes back, zek plays nice till theer is castrated.</span></p> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">Tarew is a meddlesome busybody by elemental standards, followed closely by Fennin. Although in my fanfiction, Fennin lost BOTH of his subdieties to theer.</span></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">Pictures of the runes</p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><a rel="nofollow" href="http://images.wikia.com/eq2/images/7/70/ZoukunnenNW.jpg" target="_blank">Zou Kunnen</a></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><a rel="nofollow" href="http://images.wikia.com/eq2/images/e/e0/Paixao_NE_purple.jpg" target="_blank">Paixao</a></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><a rel="nofollow" href="http://images.wikia.com/eq2/images/e/e7/Pingyuan_Diqu_SE_green_hills.jpg" target="_blank">Pingyuan Diqu</a></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><a rel="nofollow" href="http://images.wikia.com/eq2/images/b/b4/Aniquilacion_SW_orange%2C_green_in_background.jpg" target="_blank">Aniquilacion</a></p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>ratbastard wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">INFO of The Fight Itself: <span style="color: #ff0000;">my comments</span></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">Zou Kunnen (dutch: to be possible/to be able) -NW- Front Left – symbol: blue waves - Blue tile effect = Crit bonus + Power drain.Theer buff: ManaBurn - Theer starts the fight with 0% power and will throughout the fight gain a little power over time. When he gets enough he will start to ManaBurn the raid, draining masive ammounts of power from your raid. When you see he has power use any and all power draining abilities you have to assist in dropping it back down. <span style="color: #ff0000;">(looks like great candidate for previous god of magic before druzzil was made, and creator of naiad, behemoth... or possibly ocean lord, blue is also the color of valor and Mithaniel came later)</span></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">Paixao (portuegese: passion) - NE - Rear Left – symbol: purple intertwined lines - Purple tile effect = Health to Power conversion.Theer buff: Balanced Judgement - This ability is the most difficult for Theer as it requires people in your raid to locate their polar opposite. The abilities are called Star-charged Soul and Void-charged Soul. The Charged Soul effect can be found easier by looking at your Detrimentals in your raid window and finding either 2 people with an incurable noxious or two people with an incurable elemental on them. The people who both have the incurable noxious have to find one another within 10 seconds and the same goes for the ones with the incurable elemental. If you do not succeed at this, BOTH people with those effects will die. <span style="color: #ff0000;">(I like this deity for god of love before Erollisi was created, the translation and effect fits perfectly with that theme-gotta find your true love before time runs out) like starcrossed lovers romeo and juliet</span></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">Pingyuan Diqu (chinese:plains/grassy area)-SE- Rear Right – symbol: green hillsGreen tile effect = Mitigation increase.Theer buff: Epic Add - Killing this rune will spawn a ghost-like copy of Theer. As a raid you can choose to kill this mob however for the sake of the way to kill 4 rune theer it is best to spawn this mob and just ignore it. Treat it like any other AOE. When the add gets to theer it will explode and hit your raid for 90% of their max hp. It will not kill anyone who is at max health. Which means just make sure everyone is at green just before it blows up. Killing this mob is really not an option and will only hurt your raid later if you intend on working on 4 rune theer. <span style="color: #ff0000;">(I like this guy for alternate name of Xul'Varien and as father of xulous:green hills->pestilence, like dead hills, and it creates ghost add that runs in and aoe's. Imagine this ability built on city of dragon corpses, dragons would be terrified)</span></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">Aniquilacion (spanish: annihilation)-SW - Front Right – symbol: orange crisscrossings -Orange tile effect = Potency and Crit bonus.Theer buff: Curse + Small Heroic Adds - Killing this rune will add a curse as well as 3-4 Heroic fire tornadoes? mobs to this event for every curse. The person with the curse must be atleast 30 meters away from the raid when it expires. If they are too close it will kill anyone nearby. The curse will not kill the player its on. Adds will spawn on the person who has the curse when the curse expires. <span style="color: #ff0000;">(I like this diety for god of flame, before sol ro was made since sol ro wasnt around for the first or second of brell's pacts, and never made any races, could be father of efreeti)</span></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">There are also shadowmen adds sometimes.</p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">Chess squares have temporary alternating runes of these deities, as well as 2 more squares, both with rotating circles with askew rays. I believe these are Order (rezz point) and Chaos (strips buffs).</p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">As someone stated earlier, 1 possible phrase from combining the translations: The "Annihilation" of "Passion" "Would Be Possible" upon a "Plain Area."</p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">If I was writing the story of the fallen gods, the age of scale includes brell, 4 dead gods, and veeshan making a pact on norrath while noone else knows about it, veeshan moves on to other worlds, 4 soon-to-be fallen gods declare genocide on abandoned dragons, theer wipes them out for breaking the pact, but leaves their races. Vacancies are created in pantheon. Bert seizes opportunity, wiping out xulous. brell looks for reinforcements against dragons resulting in 1st and 2nd council of the gods. Tarew marr, from water creates subgods of different element: steam. Pretty ballsy thing to do. Atleast Fennin creates in his own element. Later Theer is banished by gods' cooperation and can't enforce pact rules. Theer isnt around to deal with Anashti, so she gets banished by gods cooperation because she created something that threatens everyone's handiwork. Rodcet seizes opportunity. Zek runs around unimpeded while theer is gone, rallosian wars. Theer comes back, zek plays nice till theer is castrated.</span></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">Tarew is a meddlesome busybody by elemental standards, followed closely by Fennin. Although in my fanfiction, Fennin lost BOTH of his subdieties to theer.</span></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">Pictures of the runes</p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><a rel="nofollow" href="http://images.wikia.com/eq2/images/7/70/ZoukunnenNW.jpg" target="_blank">Zou Kunnen</a></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><a rel="nofollow" href="http://images.wikia.com/eq2/images/e/e0/Paixao_NE_purple.jpg" target="_blank">Paixao</a></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><a rel="nofollow" href="http://images.wikia.com/eq2/images/e/e7/Pingyuan_Diqu_SE_green_hills.jpg" target="_blank">Pingyuan Diqu</a></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><a rel="nofollow" href="http://images.wikia.com/eq2/images/b/b4/Aniquilacion_SW_orange%2C_green_in_background.jpg" target="_blank">Aniquilacion</a></p></blockquote><p>Ok, according to the creation mythos of EQ2 the Elemental gods were created by the Nameless. That is the first thing that happened. The dieties of influence were eitehr created by the elemental gods directly or arose afterward on their own. Brell is a God of Influence. Therefore, he is younger than all of the elemental dieties.</p><p>Also, NONE OF THE ELEMENTAL DIETIES WERE APPROACHED BY BRELL TO OPPOSE VEESHAN. One of the dieties Brell did approach refused the first pact. That was Rallos Zek. He did take part in the 2nd pact. Innoruuk, who was around wasn't asked to take part and was might miffed over it. So angry he stole elves from Tunare and creaed his own race from them.</p><p>For someone that wants to talk about lore, Ratbastard needs to do some reading. The origin story of EQ (and thus EQ2) isn't hard to find!</p>

[ratbast]

<p>first of all, sorry if i offended you. not trying to annoy or whatever you are feeling. maybe you could help me understand how my communication broke down, cuz what you are saying is something i understand and am not challenging (elemental gods created first, then influence; and elemental gods never approached for pact). maybe you think the slain gods were gods of elements? i hadn't heard that, nor had i considered it.</p><p>colors (AND symbols) work pretty good for that theory, assuming they were same elemental types as what we have now, orange fire, blue water,azure air,green hill earth.</p>

[Aneova]

<p>How many of the printed books (P&P and Novels) count as canon?</p>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<p><cite>Aneova@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>How many of the printed books (P&P and Novels) count as canon?</p></blockquote><p>As far as I know, none of the novels or the PnP roleplaying games are considered to be canon. </p><p>That said, there are a few bits and pieces of the PnP games and books that have worked their way into the game as names in passing (ie Aataltaal) or as generally accepted references (ie racial ages).</p><p>EQ Live, EQ2, EQoA, Maps of Myrist, developer's roundtable discussions, developer's posts on forums, narrator dialogues, press releases and background for expansions and Game Updates may all be considered canon.  Possibly the reference books and LoN might be considered canon, though the jury is still out on that.</p><p>Suprisingly, actual in-game books and dialogues by NPCs *may*, or *may not*, be considered canon, (depending on your point of view), as the things they say may be slanted or fabrications based on their NPC motives.  One never knows if what the NPC is saying is correct or merely a rumor, an outright lie, a half-truth or a response based on partial knowledge of the subject.  It's yet another issue that hasn't been definitely settled.</p><p>The problem, of course is that all of this lore was not written at the same time by the same individuals, and a fair amount of it is contradictory.  This has led to some 'spirited' discussions here on this forum as to exactly what is being said and by whom and which version is correct.</p><p>Seemingly the developers want to keep this element of uncertainty as it allows them a degree of flexibility for new lore or retcons of older lore. </p><p>(/shrugs) [<em>Quem deus vult perdere, dementat prius.</em>]</p>

[Mixxit]

<p>here you go:<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=405621&post_id=4541907">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...post_id=4541907</a></p><p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">Vhalen:</span></strong></p><p>When EQoA was being developed, I kept in contact with their initial design staff to help create some cohesion between the two projects. At the time I was working on the Unified Timeline that we currently use in the EQII universe. There were portions of the lore that were created for EQoA that I planned on referencing in the EQII universe. You may see reference to some of these in EQII lore. However, like all other projects outside of EQII, do not consider their lore canon in our universe.</p><p>Being involved in various EQ projects in one way or another has allowed me to create a Unified Timeline. This timeline is comprised of major events portrayed in various EQ projects. Although the greater portion of the timeline notes EQ and EQII events, there are a few other events taken from a other projects. To craft such a timeline I had to make some changes in history so that everything fits where it needs to fit to tell the story of EQII. There are also events that could not fit within our universe so they were omitted. With the help of Jindrack and the rest of the design staff in EQII, this Unified Timeline is still growing. It will eventually map the uncharted depths of history and record the footsteps of our destiny.</p><p>Source: <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?start=109&topic_id=50061">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/p...&topic_id=50061</a></p><p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">Vhalar</span></strong></p><p><span style="color: #b5b5b5; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: #252525;">What you find in game and how you interpret it will yield your own truths.  That's one of the points of fantasy and roleplay and why there is ambiguity in lore in many places.  You will see history and facts from the point of view of the character you play and the NPCs that talk to you (or don't).  Some lore is indisputable because you can see it and interact with it in the game and some is entirely subjective and based on folklore, as it were.  The </span><strong>atlas</strong><span style="color: #b5b5b5; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: #252525;"> is a useful secondary source, but what you find in game should be your primary resource.</span></p><p>--</p><p>I'm going to expand a bit on what I stated earlier. Many of you know that I often hesitate to call out specific references and sources because accuracy and sources have to be taken on a case by case basis. For example, if a player copies Live Event text on their board or web site, that's a really good source for an in-game event that isn't officially documented and disseminated by our team.  If someone posts their perspective of a Live Event in a roleplay fashion, it's probably not a reliable source for facts, especially if that person only experienced an event from the point of view of their "faction." In the same way, a high elf in Felwithe may tout the humility and righteousness of her king, yet a storyline we publish may show King Tearis Thex in a different light.  Here it's a matter of perspective and what you, as a player, identify with. A dwarf in Norrath may claim he's lived for 100,000 years and played poker with Brell Serilis.  Does that mean it's true?  No.  If I said in this case that all in-game references are strictly "correct," then I'd be wrong. However, if someone checks the current year in EverQuest, they can determine that, as far as the year appears, the dwarf is pullin' yer leg.  Whether he played poker with Brell is something only he knows.</p><p>This is what I mean by perspective and resources. Sometimes with research you can make some determinations by using several sources.  Even that can be a slippery slope as I see some of you take information from within the game, supplement it with EQ RPG lore, Atlas lore, and then some EQII storyline. It's in these cases where it becomes difficult to define what's right and wrong as far as resources go and it's even more difficult for me to be able to step in and lay down the lore law. Sometimes all sources are correct as they use the same background, but sometimes the story has veered off into a different direction that separates our games. For most official documents and across our games, we generally stick to the same tenets, i.e. Rallos Zek is the god of War, not a cheese salesman.  Of course, sometimes there are no answers, but you are free to create your own notions.</p>

[Aneova]

<p>By your... "Team" really? You have a Team of individuals who do nothing but comb over the events ingame?? Normally I don't call folks on this to often but for crying out loud. I can see using perspective of different individuals but I'm not going to accept an individual or group of individuals who use their roleplaying to tout ingame gospel. Yes you can do the whole "but Vhalen said this" your previous quote denounces you're whole reply infact after that one little snip with the word atlas.</p><p>The atlas is a useful secondary source, but what you find in game should be your primary resource.</p><p>As far as the "Current Year in Norrath" it changes randomly, that's been validated many times over. The dev's themselves have hard enough time trying to keep the lore straight within the supposed Time Line.</p><p>As far as things go, have your adventures chronicle them. but don't try to feed them to me as lore.</p>

[Mixxit]

<p>Oh my, I think you  must have misread! All of that text was from two developers not me or my 'team'</p><p>First one is vhalen second two are vhalar</p><p>I pasted the text as i knew the devs had already explained how we all should look on secondary sources of information</p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>ratbastard wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>first of all, sorry if i offended you. not trying to annoy or whatever you are feeling. maybe you could help me understand how my communication broke down, cuz what you are saying is something i understand and am not challenging (elemental gods created first, then influence; and elemental gods never approached for pact). maybe you think the slain gods were gods of elements? i hadn't heard that, nor had i considered it.</p><p>colors (AND symbols) work pretty good for that theory, assuming they were same elemental types as what we have now, orange fire, blue water,azure air,green hill earth.</p></blockquote><p>You post a lot of conjecture that can be directly refuted by very widely known landmarks in EQ2's Lore. When you write something that basically says "that whole beginning of Norrath story is all lies" it isn't going to sit well with me and probably a lot of other Lore junkies.</p><p>When your talking about grey areas, a little lore that points in the direction your thinking helps but it isn't really necessary. Grey areas are basically topics that don't really have much in the way of lore written about them, or the lore is obviously colored by the fictional author of the book. For instance the whole "Age of" book series was written by the Age of Sages from not only the Dragon point of view, but his own personal point of view and anything said in these is best taken with a grain of salt.</p><p>But things like the origin story of how Veehsan struck Norrath, populated it with dragons, and then the rest of the gods started planting races on Norrath? This is considered to be some of the most important Lore in the game with multiple refrences to the event. While we certainly don't understand everything that happened (or even existed at the time), we shouldn't try to make a theory that can't work with these landmark events.</p><p>Trying to say that Veeshan made a pact doesn't make any sense. She found Norrath and she claimed it. Period. The rest of the story is written and what gods were approached is also written. While that could change if a Developer started writing it into the game, they could also write in that the Nameless is a Pink Unicorn. Unless you have something to say the lore needs to be expanded, try not to conflict with well known events?</p>

[Mixxit]

<p>I will pay SC for that mount</p>

[ratbast]

<p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>ratbastard wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>first of all, sorry if i offended you. not trying to annoy or whatever you are feeling. maybe you could help me understand how my communication broke down, cuz what you are saying is something i understand and am not challenging (elemental gods created first, then influence; and elemental gods never approached for pact). maybe you think the slain gods were gods of elements? i hadn't heard that, nor had i considered it.</p><p>colors (AND symbols) work pretty good for that theory, assuming they were same elemental types as what we have now, orange fire, blue water,azure air,green hill earth.</p></blockquote><p>You post a lot of conjecture that can be directly refuted by very widely known landmarks in EQ2's Lore. When you write something that basically says "that whole beginning of Norrath story is all lies" it isn't going to sit well with me and probably a lot of other Lore junkies.</p><p>When your talking about grey areas, a little lore that points in the direction your thinking helps but it isn't really necessary. Grey areas are basically topics that don't really have much in the way of lore written about them, or the lore is obviously colored by the fictional author of the book. For instance the whole "Age of" book series was written by the Age of Sages from not only the Dragon point of view, but his own personal point of view and anything said in these is best taken with a grain of salt.</p><p>But things like the origin story of how Veehsan struck Norrath, populated it with dragons, and then the rest of the gods started planting races on Norrath? This is considered to be some of the most important Lore in the game with multiple refrences to the event. While we certainly don't understand everything that happened (or even existed at the time), we shouldn't try to make a theory that can't work with these landmark events.</p><p>Trying to say that Veeshan made a pact doesn't make any sense. She found Norrath and she claimed it. Period. The rest of the story is written and what gods were approached is also written. While that could change if a Developer started writing it into the game, they could also write in that the Nameless is a Pink Unicorn. Unless you have something to say the lore needs to be expanded, try not to conflict with well known events?</p></blockquote><p>I tried to be nice last time, giving you the benefit of the doubt for reading comprehension.</p><p>Your original post about me 'For someone who wants to talk about lore' you said i need to read more. At that point you did not understand my post and thought I was saying elemental gods were involved in pacts. I wasn't saying that. that's just read fail on your part. My response asked how I could improve lines of communication in case the problem in comprehension was exacerbated from possible unclear communication on my part. You didnt offer anything about my communication on your next post.</p><p>From where I am sitting, you had provided zero relevent feedback or specifics. That is not an appropriate foundation to marginalize me. I would suggest either a) you refute my inconsistencies b) shut up and/or ignore my posts.</p><p>You haven't refuted me, you have only displayed you are human like us all, and sometimes have reading comprehension fail.</p><p>The closest to relevent feedback is from your next post, supposition that Veeshan didnt make a pact (again this is something i know is not in the lore). Obviously with 4 slain gods, not all major events are known to Norrathians. Your assertion she COULDN'T be part of a pact with them is as much conjecture as saying she was.</p><p>I welcome honest criticism and debunking. The only stipulation I have is providing a source/reference for refuting text. Alternate theories could have an explanation and your reasonings if no references exist.</p><p>What I see as the crux of our difference is not really about lore, its about forum use. It appears you want more structured format, with mostly official lore, and very little speculation. I can respect that, but thats not how I view forums purpose. I'm not suggesting my theories ARE cannon, just what makes the most sense for me. I'm not trying to pass my theories off as cannon either. It was my hope that others would consider my theories and shoot holes in it where it goes wrong. First you have to understand my theory though <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I think a large part of the lore minigame is the fun of making connections. its intentionally not spelled out, and REQUIRES speculation.</p><p>I would hope you have enough intelligence to realize individual players' proposed timelines are all conjecture, trying to piece together history fragments and clues into a grand unifying timeline. Players research beyond simple lore memorization is speculation. In fact, the thesis of this individual thread "Rhoen Theer's Slains Gods...who are they?" is a question based on speculation that asks for more speculation. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the 4 runes corresponding to slain deities is not definitive and cannonized lore.</p><p>IMO, the most valuable feedback includes 1) where post is dead wrong 2) how post may be wrong 3) how post may be right (and 4 if it exists: where post is proven by lore). It's very easy to search out how theories COULD conflict. For its usefulness, option 2 is given way too much time. That there is no lore Veeshan made pact is great, but referencing it still falls into category 2 (how post may be wrong) and not 1 (where post is dead wrong). Focusing exclusively on 2 shows you to be a negative nancy who isnt actually nailing anything down, just being a pessimistic downer. Additionally, you haven't provided supporting arguements why your conjecture is more valid for you and I should consider it (such as 'you like such-and-such theory for reasons x, y, z'<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Do you think Veeshan not being part of any pacts to be cannon? cuz you present it like its fact. I see it as speculation. For me, for it to be 'fact' would need either A) complete history of Veeshan B) definitive statement by credible source on this particular point/subject or C) lore that created reasonably strong logical inconsistency for pact to have occured.</p><p>Whenever there is absence of info, I take that to be ambiguous. Only when explicitly stated that specific actions did not (or reasonably would not) occur do I take it as cannon. I still dont accept 'Veeshan never made any pacts' as cannon. So am i supposed to take your knockdown of my theories, and assume you are promoting theory only? Seems implausable, which means you are trying to pass mere theories of your own as cannon.</p><p>If you look at my initial reply, I looked for a possible scenario where you arent a total jackas s (valueable feedback category 3), such as you suggesting 4 slain gods are elemental, something that would partially contribute to your read fail.</p><p>Lastly, I would point out that you simultaneously discredit 'The Age of" book series which chronicles Veeshan depositing first brood, you also discuss impact of narrator pov, and reference Veeshan creation story having multiple sources. I do not see how history of fallen gods would be relevent from Sage of Ages perspective, in that they are dead and their races are likely dead (as well as comparing narrator voice from Necropolis of Lxanvon: clearly older voice than Age of Series voice). Yet you want to say its just logical if it wasnt included, it did not happen. I would only agree if voice chronicled 'an order of magnitude less relevent less significant' events while still omitting said event. A story that talks about what you had for breakfast and does not include detail you won the lotto strongly implies you didnt win the lotto that morning. But it does not imply you forgot to shave even though it was left out and is par for magnitude, and it definitely doesnt imply you went to work without putting car key into ignition and turning it (even though it may have happened) which keyturning is an order of magnitude less significant than having breakfast.</p><p>Voice needs to chronicle all greater magnitude, all even magnitude, and atleast 1 order lower magnitude to say omission is evidence of nonexistence. This is why I say complete history of veeshan would be required to say no pact occured. The fact fallen gods no longer exist and have left no lasting legacy nor race puts them at a pretty low order of magnitude in a creation story told by the sage of ages or even as backstory for eq1's age of turmoil starting point. The lack of story definition for the entire Age of Scale implies none of our sources were around, and they are all second-hand histories. I dont think we even have a capital city name (or any city name for that matter) for the 'supposed' first race (dragon) initial settlement on norrath, or even the name of 1 single dragon from the first brood. could that be because the xulous wiped out all the first ancients, so only the spirits of the ancients even knew the story?</p><p>Going forward, I will have no problem should SOE say no pact occured (or someone cites source already in existence). I do have a problem with infering specifics (posited as cannon) of what did or did not happen based on the very broad overview narrated sources we currently have. I find it silly to think Xul'Varien is killed (death of a god) receives no footnote by these other pantheon storylines-yet still happened-but the omission of a theoretical pact gods may have made by non-existent deities is taken as proof pact never existed.</p><p>If there was more lore about Veeshan and her goals, and what constitutes a pact and what rules are, we might be able to rule out certain behaviors she would reasonably do.</p><p>bottom line: need more defined storylines or more defined behavior rules to say its fact no pact existed. otherwise you are just saying its possible im wrong. not nailing anything down, and belittling me for putting forth a theory. a theory you havent provided reasonable proof is untenable.</p><p>You said my theory cant work with 'these landmark events'. Should be quick and easy to post why it cant work, but you still havent done it. If you can show its wrong (category 1) with inarguably objective data, or show how there could be no possible way for it to have occured (rule out any possible category 3 for my theory), I will gladly revise/trash my theory. Citing 1 source that says only dragons on norrath in Age of Scale is worthless, as Brell put some into the bowels of the earth, and its likely xulous were around, there is even an account saying behemoths were first. only dragons during that age is a 'false fact' (even besides having drakota, wurms, wyvern, drakes, and droag). additionally, you have a quote from mayong implying he was around. dragons being only race on norrath during age of scale is not uncontested inarguable fact, nor is it unadulterated pure lore...at least not yet. i doubt it ever will be, its too boring, simple and uneventful. Especially for an age that is implied to have covered a long duration (age with immortal dragons, with only 2 primary commandments 1: not kill dragons 2: not cross opposing dragon types in mating). we are supposed to believe its uneventful and/or short?</p>

[Mixxit]

<p>Try to avoid the mudslinging else you just get upset I know i had a few arguments with cusahorn over the years really interested in a theory and someone came along and just outright refused to listen (with his own perfectly legitimate reason). I know it can be hard to accept and upsetting. It's probably best to just respond with quotes to prove a point in then debate or just bite your tongue <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Here's a picture of a cat and a rabbit to help</p><p><img src="http://i.pbase.com/g3/45/600645/2/56765540.6BigHug.jpg" width="800" height="637" /></p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>ratbastard wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> (lots of cutting out material not relavant to the conversation)</p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">INFO of The Fight Itself: <span style="color: #ff0000;">my comments</span></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">Aniquilacion (spanish: annihilation)-SW - Front Right – symbol: orange crisscrossings -Orange tile effect = Potency and Crit bonus.Theer buff: Curse + Small Heroic Adds - Killing this rune will add a curse as well as 3-4 Heroic fire tornadoes? mobs to this event for every curse. The person with the curse must be atleast 30 meters away from the raid when it expires. If they are too close it will kill anyone nearby. The curse will not kill the player its on. Adds will spawn on the person who has the curse when the curse expires. <span style="color: #ff0000;">(I like this diety for god of flame, before sol ro was made since sol ro wasnt around for the first or second of brell's pacts, and never made any races, could be father of efreeti)</span></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">If I was writing the story of the fallen gods, the age of scale includes brell, 4 dead gods, and veeshan making a pact on norrath while noone else knows about it, veeshan moves on to other worlds, 4 soon-to-be fallen gods declare genocide on abandoned dragons, theer wipes them out for breaking the pact, but leaves their races. Vacancies are created in pantheon. Bert seizes opportunity, wiping out xulous. brell looks for reinforcements against dragons resulting in 1st and 2nd council of the gods. Tarew marr, from water creates subgods of different element: steam. Pretty ballsy thing to do. Atleast Fennin creates in his own element. Later Theer is banished by gods' cooperation and can't enforce pact rules. Theer isnt around to deal with Anashti, so she gets banished by gods cooperation because she created something that threatens everyone's handiwork. Rodcet seizes opportunity. Zek runs around unimpeded while theer is gone, rallosian wars. Theer comes back, zek plays nice till theer is castrated.</span></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">Tarew is a meddlesome busybody by elemental standards, followed closely by Fennin. Although in my fanfiction, Fennin lost BOTH of his subdieties to theer.</span></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p></blockquote><div>Quoted from Troodon311's "The(Updated) History of Norrath"</div><div><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">"The Creation Story</span>:</strong></div><div><strong>.</strong></div><div>"It is said that outside of space and time an entity known only as the Nameless exists, and that this being created all that there is and was and will be. It is also written in ancient texts that from His mind sprang not only the universe and its countless suns and worlds, but also a myriad of sentient, powerful, yet finite creatures whom one such as a man, or elf, or dwarf, would call a god.</div><div>.</div><div>In aeons past came one of these gods upon the world Norrath. Veeshan, Crystalline Dragon and ruler of the Plane of Sky, found this world pleasing and deposited her brood onto the frozen continent of Velious. With one swipe of her mighty claws, Veeshan opened several great wounds upon the surface of Norrath, staking her claim to this promising new world. Dragons then walked the land and flew the skies, powerful beings of great intellect, wisdom, and strength. Thus began the Age of Scale. In time the other gods noticed Veeshan's work, and being often petty and jealous beings, they too came upon Norrath, intent upon leaving their mark. Brell Serilis was first, and from his Plane of Underfoot, a dark realm of vast caves and endless tunnels, he quietly created a magical portal to a cavern deep in the belly of Norrath. Through this portal the Duke of Underfoot seeded the depths of Norrath with all manner of creatures. Brell then returned home, sealing his portal within a labyrinthine chamber of mystical Living Stone.</div><div>.</div><div>And when the other gods came to Norrath, Brell Serilis approached each of them, and after some time convinced them to meet as one to discuss the fate of the world. The Great Mother Tunare, and Prexus, The Oceanlord were in attendance, and Rallos Zek, the warlord, was also there, yet in mistrust kept his distance. Brell, carefully avoiding all queries as to the origins of his information, told of Veeshan's discovery of the new and potentially powerful world in which she had deposited her brood. Words befit of the King of Thieves poured forth from Brell's lips and he proposed that they accept an alliance of sorts, to which all save Rallos Zek agreed, ignorant of the fact that Brell had already released some of his creations into the Underfoot of this new world. The planet that would be called Norrath was divvied up between these beings of power for the purpose of keeping the Wurmqueen in check. Each would create a race of beings to watch over Norrath and keep a vigilant eye on the schemes of Dragonkind. Brell claimed the bowels of the planet and created the Dwarves, stout and strong, deep beneath the mountains of Norrath. In the abysmal depths of the oceans Prexus left his children, the Kedge, hearty aquatic beings of great mental power and stamina. And on the surface of Norrath did Tunare create the Elves, creatures of limitless grace and beauty, and Rallos Zek the Giants, fierce and formidable beings, intent upon the defense of their lands. Thus began the Elder Age.</div><div>.</div><div>It was inevitable that such energies involved in seeding planets with life would attract even more of the gods, and it was the Elves who drew the unwanted attention of Innoruuk, Prince of Hate. In a decrepit tower overlooking the dark decaying alleys of the Plane over which he ruled, Innoruuk waited, stoking the fire of his Hate until it was a raging inferno. He cursed his fellow gods for not including him in their pact and vowed to make them regret such disrespect. From the halls of the Elves' fair city, Takish-Hiz, the Prince of Hate snatched away the first Elven King and Queen. In his realm of pain and anger he slowly tore them apart, physically and mentally, over the course of three hundred years. He then gathered the quivering remnants of these beings of light and rebuilt them into his own dark sadistic image, a twisted mockery of Tunare's noble children. In depositing the Teir'Dal, as Innoruuk's Dark Elven creations would come to be called, back into the Underfoot of Norrath, the seeds for The Prince of Hate's final revenge were sown.</div><div>.</div><div>Fizzlethorpe Bristlebane and Cazic-Thule came next to Norrath, and Brell met them, concocting a second pact with these latter gods, wishing another excuse to create more peoples into the world. Rallos Zek again watched from afar, determined to add to his creation as well, and this time Brell convinced the Warlord to join the pact, assuring him that it was indeed an appropriate time to fulfill his desires. Deep in the earth did Brell return to create the gnomes, resembling dwarves to some extent, yet more wiry and gnarled, consumed with tinkering with devices more so than their cousins. On the surface, away from Elves and Giants, Bristlebane made the Halflings, short and stubby folk, agile and with a propensity to meddle and even pilfer at times. Cazic-Thule, Lord of Fear, was drawn to the swamps and jungles of Norrath and there created the green skinned Trolls and reptilian Lizard Men. And Rallos Zek returned to the surface, pleased with his sanction to create even more peoples for his army. He made then the Ogres, massive, unmovable beings of questionable intelligence, and the Orcs, bred for battle and singled-minded in their desire for conquest."</div><div>I tried finding the origonal source for this information, which I have seen in-game in EQ1 but I haven't subscribed to that game for over 7 years and the lore resources out of game for EQ1 arn't nearly as good as material published in EQ2 which are archived in both the Athenium and EQ2i.</div><div>Ratbastard's ascertions: There was a God of Fire that was killed by Rohen Theer that was replaced by Fennin Ro after Brell's pact. Veeshan makes a pact before claiming Norrath, probably with some or all of the dead gods invovled.</div><div>.</div><div>The ascertion that Veeshan became invovled in a pact counter to the lore above. Exactly why would Veeshan ask permission or seek other gods to help her claim an empty planet instead of just claiming it like in the creation story? It makes sense for Brell, since he doesn't want to be alone in opposing Veeshan.</div><div>.</div><div>The rest of the ascertions fall into a grey area. There is no known lore to either suggest any of this, or deny it. While I find it highly unlikely if the devs ever wished to expand on the slain gods other than proving that Theer not only could kill a god, but did it is a possible theory they could follow. Though slaying an elemental diety is an extreme act. Rallos Zek lead an invasion of the Plane of Earth, and successfully captured the Rathe and executed them on Norrath. That was responsable for the creation of the Rathe Mountains. What it didn't do was actually kill them.</div><div>.</div><div>Could Theer kill a elemental diety? Sure. The big question is why upset the current cosmology of Norrath to prove a point? We have stories of some gods being new. We herd stories of Rodcet Knife and Bertoxxulous both being relative newcommers. The Marr twins were unique amongst gods of influence because they were gods when they came to norrath but they didn't have a realm of influence until after they interacted with mortals. They discovered traits developed by mortals and embraced them as their own.</div><div>.</div><div>Were the dead gods the prior dieties for these 4 portfolios? Who knows? Honestly I doubt that those dieties exist beyond a name and were probably created just for the raid. Or it could be the dev has an entire story of each that fits perfectly within Norrathian history and has chosen never to publish that information.</div><div>.</div><div>I find its better to build on hints of what is there and to stick to as solid a footing as possible. While your ascertions are certainly possible, there is nothing to suggest any of it happened. Just as valid as a Pink Unicorn Nameless.</div><div>.</div><div>(Edited to add space between paragraphs, formatting was unreadable)</div>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>ratbastard wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Voice needs to chronicle all greater magnitude, all even magnitude, and atleast 1 order lower magnitude to say omission is evidence of nonexistence. This is why I say complete history of veeshan would be required to say no pact occured. The fact fallen gods no longer exist and have left no lasting legacy nor race puts them at a pretty low order of magnitude in a creation story told by the sage of ages or even as backstory for eq1's age of turmoil starting point. The lack of story definition for the entire Age of Scale implies none of our sources were around, and they are all second-hand histories. I dont think we even have a capital city name (or any city name for that matter) for the 'supposed' first race (dragon) initial settlement on norrath, or even the name of 1 single dragon from the first brood. could that be because the xulous wiped out all the first ancients, so only the spirits of the ancients even knew the story?</p></blockquote><p>The dragon city in EQ1 is Skyshrine. The dragons also constructed The Temple of Veeshan and Dragon Necropolis. Most dragons live in the Western Wastes, with no protection from the elements.</p><p>First Brood dragons in EQ1 that you can find (and kill) Zlandicar, Klandicar, Sontalak, Yelinak, Lendiniara, Harla Dar, Jen Sapara, and Hsraga. I'm probably missing a few but these were the ones I could look up easily on ZAM. Note that Yelinak is the same dragon that is currently resting and negotiating with the Coldain in EQ2.</p><p>It kinda makes a joke out of Mayong claiming to have seen the first brood. Mayong saw them, my EQ1 druid slew most of them! Heck, most everybody that had a mythical in EQ2 slew some of the first brood. </p>

[ratbast]

<p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>ratbastard wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> (lots of cutting out material not relavant to the conversation)</p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">INFO of The Fight Itself: <span style="color: #ff0000;">my comments</span></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">Aniquilacion (spanish: annihilation)-SW - Front Right – symbol: orange crisscrossings -Orange tile effect = Potency and Crit bonus.Theer buff: Curse + Small Heroic Adds - Killing this rune will add a curse as well as 3-4 Heroic fire tornadoes? mobs to this event for every curse. The person with the curse must be atleast 30 meters away from the raid when it expires. If they are too close it will kill anyone nearby. The curse will not kill the player its on. Adds will spawn on the person who has the curse when the curse expires. <span style="color: #ff0000;">(I like this diety for god of flame, before sol ro was made since sol ro wasnt around for the first or second of brell's pacts, and never made any races, could be father of efreeti)</span></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">If I was writing the story of the fallen gods, the age of scale includes brell, 4 dead gods, and veeshan making a pact on norrath while noone else knows about it, veeshan moves on to other worlds, 4 soon-to-be fallen gods declare genocide on abandoned dragons, theer wipes them out for breaking the pact, but leaves their races. Vacancies are created in pantheon. Bert seizes opportunity, wiping out xulous. brell looks for reinforcements against dragons resulting in 1st and 2nd council of the gods. Tarew marr, from water creates subgods of different element: steam. Pretty ballsy thing to do. Atleast Fennin creates in his own element. Later Theer is banished by gods' cooperation and can't enforce pact rules. Theer isnt around to deal with Anashti, so she gets banished by gods cooperation because she created something that threatens everyone's handiwork. Rodcet seizes opportunity. Zek runs around unimpeded while theer is gone, rallosian wars. Theer comes back, zek plays nice till theer is castrated.</span></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">Tarew is a meddlesome busybody by elemental standards, followed closely by Fennin. Although in my fanfiction, Fennin lost BOTH of his subdieties to theer.</span></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p></blockquote><div>Quoted from Troodon311's "The(Updated) History of Norrath"</div><div><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">"The Creation Story</span>:</strong></div><div><strong>.</strong></div><div>"It is said that outside of space and time an entity known only as the Nameless exists, and that this being created all that there is and was and will be. It is also written in ancient texts that from His mind sprang not only the universe and its countless suns and worlds, but also a myriad of sentient, powerful, yet finite creatures whom one such as a man, or elf, or dwarf, would call a god.</div><div>.</div><div>In aeons past came one of these gods upon the world Norrath. Veeshan, Crystalline Dragon and ruler of the Plane of Sky, found this world pleasing and deposited her brood onto the frozen continent of Velious. With one swipe of her mighty claws, Veeshan opened several great wounds upon the surface of Norrath, staking her claim to this promising new world. Dragons then walked the land and flew the skies, powerful beings of great intellect, wisdom, and strength. Thus began the Age of Scale. In time the other gods noticed Veeshan's work, and being often petty and jealous beings, they too came upon Norrath, intent upon leaving their mark. Brell Serilis was first, and from his Plane of Underfoot, a dark realm of vast caves and endless tunnels, he quietly created a magical portal to a cavern deep in the belly of Norrath. Through this portal the Duke of Underfoot seeded the depths of Norrath with all manner of creatures. Brell then returned home, sealing his portal within a labyrinthine chamber of mystical Living Stone.</div><div>.</div><div>And when the other gods came to Norrath, Brell Serilis approached each of them, and after some time convinced them to meet as one to discuss the fate of the world. The Great Mother Tunare, and Prexus, The Oceanlord were in attendance, and Rallos Zek, the warlord, was also there, yet in mistrust kept his distance. Brell, carefully avoiding all queries as to the origins of his information, told of Veeshan's discovery of the new and potentially powerful world in which she had deposited her brood. Words befit of the King of Thieves poured forth from Brell's lips and he proposed that they accept an alliance of sorts, to which all save Rallos Zek agreed, ignorant of the fact that Brell had already released some of his creations into the Underfoot of this new world. The planet that would be called Norrath was divvied up between these beings of power for the purpose of keeping the Wurmqueen in check. Each would create a race of beings to watch over Norrath and keep a vigilant eye on the schemes of Dragonkind. Brell claimed the bowels of the planet and created the Dwarves, stout and strong, deep beneath the mountains of Norrath. In the abysmal depths of the oceans Prexus left his children, the Kedge, hearty aquatic beings of great mental power and stamina. And on the surface of Norrath did Tunare create the Elves, creatures of limitless grace and beauty, and Rallos Zek the Giants, fierce and formidable beings, intent upon the defense of their lands. Thus began the Elder Age.</div><div>.</div><div>It was inevitable that such energies involved in seeding planets with life would attract even more of the gods, and it was the Elves who drew the unwanted attention of Innoruuk, Prince of Hate. In a decrepit tower overlooking the dark decaying alleys of the Plane over which he ruled, Innoruuk waited, stoking the fire of his Hate until it was a raging inferno. He cursed his fellow gods for not including him in their pact and vowed to make them regret such disrespect. From the halls of the Elves' fair city, Takish-Hiz, the Prince of Hate snatched away the first Elven King and Queen. In his realm of pain and anger he slowly tore them apart, physically and mentally, over the course of three hundred years. He then gathered the quivering remnants of these beings of light and rebuilt them into his own dark sadistic image, a twisted mockery of Tunare's noble children. In depositing the Teir'Dal, as Innoruuk's Dark Elven creations would come to be called, back into the Underfoot of Norrath, the seeds for The Prince of Hate's final revenge were sown.</div><div>.</div><div>Fizzlethorpe Bristlebane and Cazic-Thule came next to Norrath, and Brell met them, concocting a second pact with these latter gods, wishing another excuse to create more peoples into the world. Rallos Zek again watched from afar, determined to add to his creation as well, and this time Brell convinced the Warlord to join the pact, assuring him that it was indeed an appropriate time to fulfill his desires. Deep in the earth did Brell return to create the gnomes, resembling dwarves to some extent, yet more wiry and gnarled, consumed with tinkering with devices more so than their cousins. On the surface, away from Elves and Giants, Bristlebane made the Halflings, short and stubby folk, agile and with a propensity to meddle and even pilfer at times. Cazic-Thule, Lord of Fear, was drawn to the swamps and jungles of Norrath and there created the green skinned Trolls and reptilian Lizard Men. And Rallos Zek returned to the surface, pleased with his sanction to create even more peoples for his army. He made then the Ogres, massive, unmovable beings of questionable intelligence, and the Orcs, bred for battle and singled-minded in their desire for conquest."</div><div>I tried finding the origonal source for this information, which I have seen in-game in EQ1 but I haven't subscribed to that game for over 7 years and the lore resources out of game for EQ1 arn't nearly as good as material published in EQ2 which are archived in both the Athenium and EQ2i.</div><div>Ratbastard's ascertions: There was a God of Fire that was killed by Rohen Theer that was replaced by Fennin Ro after Brell's pact. Veeshan makes a pact before claiming Norrath, probably with some or all of the dead gods invovled.</div><div>.</div><div>The ascertion that Veeshan became invovled in a pact counter to the lore above. Exactly why would Veeshan ask permission or seek other gods to help her claim an empty planet instead of just claiming it like in the creation story? It makes sense for Brell, since he doesn't want to be alone in opposing Veeshan.</div><div>.</div><div>The rest of the ascertions fall into a grey area. There is no known lore to either suggest any of this, or deny it. While I find it highly unlikely if the devs ever wished to expand on the slain gods other than proving that Theer not only could kill a god, but did it is a possible theory they could follow. Though slaying an elemental diety is an extreme act. Rallos Zek lead an invasion of the Plane of Earth, and successfully captured the Rathe and executed them on Norrath. That was responsable for the creation of the Rathe Mountains. What it didn't do was actually kill them.</div><div>.</div><div>Could Theer kill a elemental diety? Sure. The big question is why upset the current cosmology of Norrath to prove a point? We have stories of some gods being new. We herd stories of Rodcet Knife and Bertoxxulous both being relative newcommers. The Marr twins were unique amongst gods of influence because they were gods when they came to norrath but they didn't have a realm of influence until after they interacted with mortals. They discovered traits developed by mortals and embraced them as their own.</div><div>.</div><div>Were the dead gods the prior dieties for these 4 portfolios? Who knows? Honestly I doubt that those dieties exist beyond a name and were probably created just for the raid. Or it could be the dev has an entire story of each that fits perfectly within Norrathian history and has chosen never to publish that information.</div><div>.</div><div>I find its better to build on hints of what is there and to stick to as solid a footing as possible. While your ascertions are certainly possible, there is nothing to suggest any of it happened. Just as valid as a Pink Unicorn Nameless.</div><div>.</div><div>(Edited to add space between paragraphs, formatting was unreadable)</div></blockquote><p>If there is just one thing I would hope you would read and comprehend: I never said any of the slain gods were of the elemental order. My theory was based on the assumption that they were all of the influence order. It wasnt until your initial response to me had the idea even occured to me the possibility they were elemental.</p><p>I'm pretty sure Ive restated that in each post. How are you still stuck on this? I don't know how to debate if you are unable to know my base starting position after multipe efforts I make to communicate and correct your misapprehension.</p><p>I can understand seeing a wall of text and blowing it off: not reading it, but you should atleast admit responsibility for reading my initial post; a post from which you authored the idea they were elemental, not me. How many posts have you made while mischaracterizing and misunderstanding my theory?</p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>ratbastard wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>ratbastard wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> (lots of cutting out material not relavant to the conversation)</p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">INFO of The Fight Itself: <span style="color: #ff0000;">my comments</span></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">Aniquilacion (spanish: annihilation)-SW - Front Right – symbol: orange crisscrossings -Orange tile effect = Potency and Crit bonus.Theer buff: Curse + Small Heroic Adds - Killing this rune will add a curse as well as 3-4 Heroic fire tornadoes? mobs to this event for every curse. The person with the curse must be atleast 30 meters away from the raid when it expires. If they are too close it will kill anyone nearby. The curse will not kill the player its on. Adds will spawn on the person who has the curse when the curse expires. <span style="color: #ff0000;">(I like this diety for god of flame, before sol ro was made since sol ro wasnt around for the first or second of brell's pacts, and never made any races, could be father of efreeti)</span></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">If I was writing the story of the fallen gods, the age of scale includes brell, 4 dead gods, and veeshan making a pact on norrath while noone else knows about it, veeshan moves on to other worlds, 4 soon-to-be fallen gods declare genocide on abandoned dragons, theer wipes them out for breaking the pact, but leaves their races. Vacancies are created in pantheon. Bert seizes opportunity, wiping out xulous. brell looks for reinforcements against dragons resulting in 1st and 2nd council of the gods. Tarew marr, from water creates subgods of different element: steam. Pretty ballsy thing to do. Atleast Fennin creates in his own element. Later Theer is banished by gods' cooperation and can't enforce pact rules. Theer isnt around to deal with Anashti, so she gets banished by gods cooperation because she created something that threatens everyone's handiwork. Rodcet seizes opportunity. Zek runs around unimpeded while theer is gone, rallosian wars. Theer comes back, zek plays nice till theer is castrated.</span></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">Tarew is a meddlesome busybody by elemental standards, followed closely by Fennin. Although in my fanfiction, Fennin lost BOTH of his subdieties to theer.</span></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p></blockquote><div>Quoted from Troodon311's "The(Updated) History of Norrath"</div><div><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">"The Creation Story</span>:</strong></div><div><strong>.</strong></div><div>"It is said that outside of space and time an entity known only as the Nameless exists, and that this being created all that there is and was and will be. It is also written in ancient texts that from His mind sprang not only the universe and its countless suns and worlds, but also a myriad of sentient, powerful, yet finite creatures whom one such as a man, or elf, or dwarf, would call a god.</div><div>.</div><div>In aeons past came one of these gods upon the world Norrath. Veeshan, Crystalline Dragon and ruler of the Plane of Sky, found this world pleasing and deposited her brood onto the frozen continent of Velious. With one swipe of her mighty claws, Veeshan opened several great wounds upon the surface of Norrath, staking her claim to this promising new world. Dragons then walked the land and flew the skies, powerful beings of great intellect, wisdom, and strength. Thus began the Age of Scale. In time the other gods noticed Veeshan's work, and being often petty and jealous beings, they too came upon Norrath, intent upon leaving their mark. Brell Serilis was first, and from his Plane of Underfoot, a dark realm of vast caves and endless tunnels, he quietly created a magical portal to a cavern deep in the belly of Norrath. Through this portal the Duke of Underfoot seeded the depths of Norrath with all manner of creatures. Brell then returned home, sealing his portal within a labyrinthine chamber of mystical Living Stone.</div><div>.</div><div>And when the other gods came to Norrath, Brell Serilis approached each of them, and after some time convinced them to meet as one to discuss the fate of the world. The Great Mother Tunare, and Prexus, The Oceanlord were in attendance, and Rallos Zek, the warlord, was also there, yet in mistrust kept his distance. Brell, carefully avoiding all queries as to the origins of his information, told of Veeshan's discovery of the new and potentially powerful world in which she had deposited her brood. Words befit of the King of Thieves poured forth from Brell's lips and he proposed that they accept an alliance of sorts, to which all save Rallos Zek agreed, ignorant of the fact that Brell had already released some of his creations into the Underfoot of this new world. The planet that would be called Norrath was divvied up between these beings of power for the purpose of keeping the Wurmqueen in check. Each would create a race of beings to watch over Norrath and keep a vigilant eye on the schemes of Dragonkind. Brell claimed the bowels of the planet and created the Dwarves, stout and strong, deep beneath the mountains of Norrath. In the abysmal depths of the oceans Prexus left his children, the Kedge, hearty aquatic beings of great mental power and stamina. And on the surface of Norrath did Tunare create the Elves, creatures of limitless grace and beauty, and Rallos Zek the Giants, fierce and formidable beings, intent upon the defense of their lands. Thus began the Elder Age.</div><div>.</div><div>It was inevitable that such energies involved in seeding planets with life would attract even more of the gods, and it was the Elves who drew the unwanted attention of Innoruuk, Prince of Hate. In a decrepit tower overlooking the dark decaying alleys of the Plane over which he ruled, Innoruuk waited, stoking the fire of his Hate until it was a raging inferno. He cursed his fellow gods for not including him in their pact and vowed to make them regret such disrespect. From the halls of the Elves' fair city, Takish-Hiz, the Prince of Hate snatched away the first Elven King and Queen. In his realm of pain and anger he slowly tore them apart, physically and mentally, over the course of three hundred years. He then gathered the quivering remnants of these beings of light and rebuilt them into his own dark sadistic image, a twisted mockery of Tunare's noble children. In depositing the Teir'Dal, as Innoruuk's Dark Elven creations would come to be called, back into the Underfoot of Norrath, the seeds for The Prince of Hate's final revenge were sown.</div><div>.</div><div>Fizzlethorpe Bristlebane and Cazic-Thule came next to Norrath, and Brell met them, concocting a second pact with these latter gods, wishing another excuse to create more peoples into the world. Rallos Zek again watched from afar, determined to add to his creation as well, and this time Brell convinced the Warlord to join the pact, assuring him that it was indeed an appropriate time to fulfill his desires. Deep in the earth did Brell return to create the gnomes, resembling dwarves to some extent, yet more wiry and gnarled, consumed with tinkering with devices more so than their cousins. On the surface, away from Elves and Giants, Bristlebane made the Halflings, short and stubby folk, agile and with a propensity to meddle and even pilfer at times. Cazic-Thule, Lord of Fear, was drawn to the swamps and jungles of Norrath and there created the green skinned Trolls and reptilian Lizard Men. And Rallos Zek returned to the surface, pleased with his sanction to create even more peoples for his army. He made then the Ogres, massive, unmovable beings of questionable intelligence, and the Orcs, bred for battle and singled-minded in their desire for conquest."</div><div>I tried finding the origonal source for this information, which I have seen in-game in EQ1 but I haven't subscribed to that game for over 7 years and the lore resources out of game for EQ1 arn't nearly as good as material published in EQ2 which are archived in both the Athenium and EQ2i.</div><div>Ratbastard's ascertions: There was a God of Fire that was killed by Rohen Theer that was replaced by Fennin Ro after Brell's pact. Veeshan makes a pact before claiming Norrath, probably with some or all of the dead gods invovled.</div><div>.</div><div>The ascertion that Veeshan became invovled in a pact counter to the lore above. Exactly why would Veeshan ask permission or seek other gods to help her claim an empty planet instead of just claiming it like in the creation story? It makes sense for Brell, since he doesn't want to be alone in opposing Veeshan.</div><div>.</div><div>The rest of the ascertions fall into a grey area. There is no known lore to either suggest any of this, or deny it. While I find it highly unlikely if the devs ever wished to expand on the slain gods other than proving that Theer not only could kill a god, but did it is a possible theory they could follow. Though slaying an elemental diety is an extreme act. Rallos Zek lead an invasion of the Plane of Earth, and successfully captured the Rathe and executed them on Norrath. That was responsable for the creation of the Rathe Mountains. What it didn't do was actually kill them.</div><div>.</div><div>Could Theer kill a elemental diety? Sure. The big question is why upset the current cosmology of Norrath to prove a point? We have stories of some gods being new. We herd stories of Rodcet Knife and Bertoxxulous both being relative newcommers. The Marr twins were unique amongst gods of influence because they were gods when they came to norrath but they didn't have a realm of influence until after they interacted with mortals. They discovered traits developed by mortals and embraced them as their own.</div><div>.</div><div>Were the dead gods the prior dieties for these 4 portfolios? Who knows? Honestly I doubt that those dieties exist beyond a name and were probably created just for the raid. Or it could be the dev has an entire story of each that fits perfectly within Norrathian history and has chosen never to publish that information.</div><div>.</div><div>I find its better to build on hints of what is there and to stick to as solid a footing as possible. While your ascertions are certainly possible, there is nothing to suggest any of it happened. Just as valid as a Pink Unicorn Nameless.</div><div>.</div><div>(Edited to add space between paragraphs, formatting was unreadable)</div></blockquote><p>If there is just one thing I would hope you would read and comprehend: I never said any of the slain gods were of the elemental order. My theory was based on the assumption that they were all of the influence order. It wasnt until your initial response to me had the idea even occured to me the possibility they were elemental.</p><p>I'm pretty sure Ive restated that in each post. How are you still stuck on this? I don't know how to debate if you are unable to know my base starting position after multipe efforts I make to communicate and correct your misapprehension.</p><p>I can understand seeing a wall of text and blowing it off: not reading it, but you should atleast admit responsibility for reading my initial post; a post from which you authored the idea they were elemental, not me. How many posts have you made while mischaracterizing and misunderstanding my theory?</p></blockquote><p>So...your putting forth the idea that the "god of flame" is an influence level diety? That fire and flame arn't the same thing? In a way that makes sense, seeing that you have the ocean lord, the god of the underfoot, the sky matriarch, and the lord of growth...</p><p>Though there is a Lord of Flame, Sol Ro. If Fennin Ro decided to create his own children/family to fill in the lesser versions of his elemental self, I don't see why a previous version of the flame god wouldn't have the Ro name. Also this would place Sol Ro and his children in the "new" catagory if they were created after Norrath was populated. When talking about dieties, the Marr twins and a few others are refered to as "relatively new". Sol Ro and Druzil Ro arn't mentioned amongst them.</p><p>On the other hand if you want to fall into the camp that says Theer was banished before Norrath was ever populated, then all bets are off. I really dislike those timelines because it really falls outside of the scope of Everquest to talk about pre-Norrath events. Though, from a certain perspective it makes things much less complicated if some events took place before Norrath was populated. Meh. Unless we hear from lore books that they are chronocalizing events from before Norrath was discovered or why Theer and Anashti are interested in Norrath despite never having been there I think we need to try and fit everything into Norrath's history.</p><p>Which brings me back around to time travel. It does explain a lot. Heck, Mayong could of even created the Ydal during his stay in the Plane of Hate during the Cataclysm. It isn't like he wouldn't of had the opportunity to recover the Ewer and then make sure it gets planted for us to find.</p>