A few facts about Taunts. [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

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Valind

04-21-2010, 11:16 AM

If one more useless, limp-wristed, namby-pamby raid-specced full-out DPS Wizard complains about my taunts, when he's come to a battleground without so much as a dispersion item, I swear Im going to hunt down a puppy and club it to death with a baby seal. You have the ability to spec for almost as much defense as a real tank. This isn't limited to just Wizards either. Summoners can spec for pet-intercepts which will reduce incoming damage by alot. You getting killed because you failed to come prepared is not my fault. I'm not here to hold your hand. Learn to play. This is not PvE. No matter how good a tank's gear is, no matter how good his clicking skills and targetting skills are, he CANNOT keep everyone on him. He has a limited number of buttons which taunt. Some of them don't prevent the target from changing their target straight away either. Even with abilities like Insolence, their range is limited. Anyone outside that small range can easily swap targets.You are going to take damage at some point. It's a fact. No tank is going to be able to completely lock-down a group (or even a single target). Ever. When you DO take damage, how much damage you take (and consequently, wether you live or die) is up to YOU. I cannot control your gear. I cannot control your AA points. This stuff is up to you. YOU control your AA choices. YOU control your gear choices. YOU control your position relative to your healer/tank. YOU therefor control the tank's ability to taunt things off you, and your choices directly affect your ability to survive.Taunts are limited in number. Most tanks have 1 or 2 single target taunts, an encounter taunt and then one or two class-specific taunt abilities. There are not enough to keep even one person locked onto you for ever, their recast and lock durations are too short.Taunts are limited in duration. An encounter taunt locks for 3 seconds and can be recast only once every 20 seconds (depending on class) that leaves plenty of time when those taunt buttons are blacked out and unusable.Taunts are limited by range. While the encounter and main single-target taunts do have some range, its not enough to taunt that ranger on the other side of the bridge. It is a small range. Alot of taunts require you to actually run over and HIT your target.Proc taunts are limited by their trigger conditions. If you can't hit things (because they're not in melee range) then you can't trigger something that requires you to hit them in melee (Adrenaline AA, Reinforcement, Manhandle etc). If the person you're attacking is smart enough to stop attacking you, then taunts that proc when you get hit, wont proc (Insolence, Hold the Line, Aggressive Defence etc).There are also times when taunting is a BAD THING. These times include: you're in a BG without a healer. If you taunt, you will simply DIE. Leaving the damage spread out (by NOT taunting) will mean that your group will live longer than if you'd dragged all the damage onto yourself and imploded. If you have the relic and your healer is weak. Letting the other group spread their damage out will allow you to take less damage, letting your weaker healer keep you alive for longer.Let me finish this by saying the following. If I'm standing by my healer protecting said healer and the guy holding the relic, I am not going to run to your aid if you happen to be on the other side of the map. If you run away from me, you accept that the range on my taunts will not reach. If you happen to die (Conjuror from Befallen) it is not my fault for not taunting. It is YOUR fault for running away from me.L2P and quit complaining.

Harbringer Doom

04-21-2010, 12:24 PM

Did you just get out of a Battleground grouped with Drewwww?Seriously, ignore him.

overmonk2

04-21-2010, 01:38 PM

The whole “L2P and quit complaining” crap is getting old. Things were balanced (blanket nerf on spell dmg, etc.) with a broken resist system which had people doing crazy DPS. The resist system is now fixed but the result has taken things out of balance in regards to survivability. The removal of the blanket nerf of spell damage will help a bit and we will have to see how things look on test when it goes up. As it is currently survivability is just stupid. It’s a chore just to kill a single person in a solid group and you’ll need all your dps focused on that person to even pull it off.So now throw in taunts to the picture. With taunts pulling your focus you can’t kill anyone and you spend 10 minutes humping each other’s legs. Weeeee so much fun. I think the majority of the frustration in taunts is rooted in the issue with unbalanced survivability. Get that fixed and most of the QQ’ing about taunts will go away.

Taldier

04-21-2010, 02:10 PM

overmonk2

04-21-2010, 02:42 PM

<cite>Taldier@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>overmonk2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>The whole “L2P and quit complaining” crap is getting old. Things were balanced (blanket nerf on spell dmg, etc.) with a broken resist system which had people doing crazy DPS. The resist system is now fixed but the result has taken things out of balance in regards to survivability. The removal of the blanket nerf of spell damage will help a bit and we will have to see how things look on test when it goes up. As it is currently survivability is just stupid. It’s a chore just to kill a single person in a solid group and you’ll need all your dps focused on that person to even pull it off.So now throw in taunts to the picture. With taunts pulling your focus you can’t kill anyone and you spend 10 minutes humping each other’s legs. Weeeee so much fun. I think the majority of the frustration in taunts is rooted in the issue with unbalanced survivability. Get that fixed and most of the QQ’ing about taunts will go away.</blockquote>I think its funny that in a thread responding to players who whine about tanks not taunting which points out the limits upon taunts you complain that taunts make it imposible to kill anyone.Are there still some bugs in the mechanics? Yeah.Groups Im in still manage to kill players in other groups with tanks and healers and vice versa. So...L2P? One of your dps isnt supposed to be able to just randomly pick a target and burn it down solo through heals.</blockquote>Your reading comprehension isn’t that great is it? Did I ever say ONE person should be able to burn people down solo?!?! I’m talking about full groups unable to ever wipe the other group because of survivability being totally out of whack with DPS. It’s easy as hell to mow though groups with lesser gear… that will always be the case. I guess you just need to face some group with better gear.My point was also that it is NOT really taunts that are the problem. It’s the underlying survivability issues. So instead of telling me to L2P you should just L2R (Learn to Read).

Taldier

04-21-2010, 03:05 PM

<cite>overmonk2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Taldier@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>overmonk2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>The whole “L2P and quit complaining” crap is getting old. Things were balanced (blanket nerf on spell dmg, etc.) with a broken resist system which had people doing crazy DPS. The resist system is now fixed but the result has taken things out of balance in regards to survivability. The removal of the blanket nerf of spell damage will help a bit and we will have to see how things look on test when it goes up. As it is currently survivability is just stupid. It’s a chore just to kill a single person in a solid group and you’ll need all your dps focused on that person to even pull it off.So now throw in taunts to the picture. With taunts pulling your focus you can’t kill anyone and you spend 10 minutes humping each other’s legs. Weeeee so much fun. I think the majority of the frustration in taunts is rooted in the issue with unbalanced survivability. Get that fixed and most of the QQ’ing about taunts will go away.</blockquote>I think its funny that in a thread responding to players who whine about tanks not taunting which points out the limits upon taunts you complain that taunts make it imposible to kill anyone.Are there still some bugs in the mechanics? Yeah.Groups Im in still manage to kill players in other groups with tanks and healers and vice versa. So...L2P? One of your dps isnt supposed to be able to just randomly pick a target and burn it down solo through heals.</blockquote>Your reading comprehension isn’t that great is it? Did I ever say ONE person should be able to burn people down solo?!?! I’m talking about full groups unable to ever wipe the other group because of survivability being totally out of whack with DPS. It’s easy as hell to mow though groups with lesser gear… that will always be the case. I guess you just need to face some group with better gear.My point was also that it is NOT really taunts that are the problem. It’s the underlying survivability issues. So instead of telling me to L2P you should just L2R (Learn to Read).</blockquote>Or maybe your group is just the one with lesser gear?There are a number of issues making survivability be slighty higher than it should be. In large group fights though these factors become far less noticable than in 1v1's or small groups.If your group cant kill anyone then they are doing something wrong whether survivability is too high atm or not.

Shorcon

04-21-2010, 03:15 PM

<cite>overmonk2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>The whole “L2P and quit complaining” crap is getting old. Things were balanced (blanket nerf on spell dmg, etc.) with a broken resist system which had people doing crazy DPS. The resist system is now fixed but the result has taken things out of balance in regards to survivability. The removal of the blanket nerf of spell damage will help a bit and we will have to see how things look on test when it goes up. As it is currently survivability is just stupid. It’s a chore just to kill a single person in a solid group and you’ll need all your dps focused on that person to even pull it off.So now throw in taunts to the picture. With taunts pulling your focus you can’t kill anyone and you spend 10 minutes humping each other’s legs. Weeeee so much fun. I think the majority of the frustration in taunts is rooted in the issue with unbalanced survivability. Get that fixed and most of the QQ’ing about taunts will go away.</blockquote>You are seriously complaining about survivability as if its a tuant problem? Let me get this straight. You cant kill anyone because you get taunted? Then how do others kill you. Taunts are here to stay. If not battlegrounds will flop to a easy mode beyond belief and tanks and healers will start dpsing. You should look at the parse. See who on your team is getting kills. Follow their lead for a bit. I know, I know. This is were you tell me your a sin and ranger is top of parse. This is were you tell me you need to be in the fray to get any hits in. Not true. Work the outside and if you end up with more than you can handle move back into your tank. Most tanks use ae taunts every time they are up and are constantly tab targeting to maximize tauntlocks on the other team within the fray. I like the less chaotic battleground were you have to be smart and choose your kill wisely. Taunts make this possible and all who say taunts are a problem need to seriously l2p. Stop begging for easy button. Fight a reasonable cause. Get your neighborhood gaurdian the much deserved love he has been stripped of for sooooo long.

overmonk2

04-21-2010, 04:56 PM

<cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>overmonk2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>The whole “L2P and quit complaining” crap is getting old. Things were balanced (blanket nerf on spell dmg, etc.) with a broken resist system which had people doing crazy DPS. The resist system is now fixed but the result has taken things out of balance in regards to survivability. The removal of the blanket nerf of spell damage will help a bit and we will have to see how things look on test when it goes up. As it is currently survivability is just stupid. It’s a chore just to kill a single person in a solid group and you’ll need all your dps focused on that person to even pull it off.So now throw in taunts to the picture. With taunts pulling your focus you can’t kill anyone and you spend 10 minutes humping each other’s legs. Weeeee so much fun. I think the majority of the frustration in taunts is rooted in the issue with unbalanced survivability. Get that fixed and most of the QQ’ing about taunts will go away.</blockquote>You are seriously complaining about survivability as if its a tuant problem? Let me get this straight. You cant kill anyone because you get taunted? Then how do others kill you. Taunts are here to stay. If not battlegrounds will flop to a easy mode beyond belief and tanks and healers will start dpsing. You should look at the parse. See who on your team is getting kills. Follow their lead for a bit. I know, I know. This is were you tell me your a sin and ranger is top of parse. This is were you tell me you need to be in the fray to get any hits in. Not true. Work the outside and if you end up with more than you can handle move back into your tank. Most tanks use ae taunts every time they are up and are constantly tab targeting to maximize tauntlocks on the other team within the fray. I like the less chaotic battleground were you have to be smart and choose your kill wisely. Taunts make this possible and all who say taunts are a problem need to seriously l2p. Stop begging for easy button. Fight a reasonable cause. Get your neighborhood gaurdian the much deserved love he has been stripped of for sooooo long.</blockquote>No seriously does anyone read? The whole point of my first post was to point out that it is NOT really the taunts that are the problem. It’s the stupid survivability that we currently have. This is why people are starting to cry about taunts. “Then how do others kill you?” THEY DON’T… that’s the point. You’ll get a few people to drop but they will be back into the fight before you can wipe them. I guess you tanks just love not being able to be killed and enjoy the 10 minute stalemate fights where hardly anyone dies? BOOORRRRRIIIINNNGG. OMG /pukeThis only applies to both teams being well geared with good tanks and healers. You will always roll over the lesser groups with ease. But what's the fun in that?

StaticLex

04-21-2010, 05:05 PM

<cite>Valindor wrote:</cite><blockquote>If one more useless, limp-wristed, namby-pamby raid-specced full-out DPS Wizard complains about my taunts, when he's come to a battleground without so much as a dispersion item, I swear Im going to hunt down a puppy and club it to death with a baby seal. You have the ability to spec for almost as much defense as a real tank. This isn't limited to just Wizards either. Summoners can spec for pet-intercepts which will reduce incoming damage by alot. You getting killed because you failed to come prepared is not my fault. I'm not here to hold your hand. Learn to play. This is not PvE. No matter how good a tank's gear is, no matter how good his clicking skills and targetting skills are, he CANNOT keep everyone on him. He has a limited number of buttons which taunt. Some of them don't prevent the target from changing their target straight away either. Even with abilities like Insolence, their range is limited. Anyone outside that small range can easily swap targets.You are going to take damage at some point. It's a fact. No tank is going to be able to completely lock-down a group (or even a single target). Ever. When you DO take damage, how much damage you take (and consequently, wether you live or die) is up to YOU. I cannot control your gear. I cannot control your AA points. This stuff is up to you. YOU control your AA choices. YOU control your gear choices. YOU control your position relative to your healer/tank. YOU therefor control the tank's ability to taunt things off you, and your choices directly affect your ability to survive.Taunts are limited in number. Most tanks have 1 or 2 single target taunts, an encounter taunt and then one or two class-specific taunt abilities. There are not enough to keep even one person locked onto you for ever, their recast and lock durations are too short.Taunts are limited in duration. An encounter taunt locks for 3 seconds and can be recast only once every 20 seconds (depending on class) that leaves plenty of time when those taunt buttons are blacked out and unusable.Taunts are limited by range. While the encounter and main single-target taunts do have some range, its not enough to taunt that ranger on the other side of the bridge. It is a small range. Alot of taunts require you to actually run over and HIT your target.Proc taunts are limited by their trigger conditions. If you can't hit things (because they're not in melee range) then you can't trigger something that requires you to hit them in melee (Adrenaline AA, Reinforcement, Manhandle etc). If the person you're attacking is smart enough to stop attacking you, then taunts that proc when you get hit, wont proc (Insolence, Hold the Line, Aggressive Defence etc).There are also times when taunting is a BAD THING. These times include: you're in a BG without a healer. If you taunt, you will simply DIE. Leaving the damage spread out (by NOT taunting) will mean that your group will live longer than if you'd dragged all the damage onto yourself and imploded. If you have the relic and your healer is weak. Letting the other group spread their damage out will allow you to take less damage, letting your weaker healer keep you alive for longer.Let me finish this by saying the following. If I'm standing by my healer protecting said healer and the guy holding the relic, I am not going to run to your aid if you happen to be on the other side of the map. If you run away from me, you accept that the range on my taunts will not reach. If you happen to die (Conjuror from Befallen) it is not my fault for not taunting. It is YOUR fault for running away from me.L2P and quit complaining.</blockquote>Playing a healer I don't expect a tank to lock down the other team 100% of the time. But when I'm basically tanking 1-3 people the entire match, someone is being a fatkid.. and it's not me. Also, I am not simply talking out of my butt; I have a fighter that I've run through BGs so I know how it is. Taunts take a little while to refresh, sure, but it's easy enough to get around. Scroll the camera out, group taunt, and then tab around to who peeled off you and single taunt them back. Mix in AEs to reaggro people who clear their target bar, etc. As long as you have a healer and keep an eye on people (scouts in particular) that try to get on them and keep them off, you're group will be a thousand times harder to kill.

StaticLex

04-21-2010, 05:09 PM

I like the epic battles where it's hard to kill the other team actually. It means you have an excellent set of players and not a bunch of rejects.

overmonk2

04-21-2010, 05:14 PM

<cite>StaticLex wrote:</cite><blockquote>I like the epic battles where it's hard to kill the other team actually. It means you have an excellent set of players and not a bunch of rejects.</blockquote>Hard is fine... but it's beyond that. When a gears win comes down to who ever can pick up the relic the fastest when it kills the holder or you spend 15 minutes holding the other teams flag with no chance of getting either. That is boring as all hell.

overmonk2

04-21-2010, 05:28 PM

Bottomline is good tanks have no trouble keeping people on them. There are just a lot of crappy tanks. Along with people that like to blame the tank regardless when they die to being stupid or under geared. But you guys can say everything is fine all you want... it won't change the fact that we still need some serious changes to bring a healthy balance to BGs.

StaticLex

04-21-2010, 06:10 PM

The only problem I see is the absurd amount of stuns and stifles, which is another reason I decline to play my healer in BGs. I join to PLAY, do my job, and have fun.. but I sit there stunned, stifled, or interrupted 90% of the time waiting to die. It's stupid and tedious. Now I just run around with a scout and uber-gank people without having to worry about garbage tanks or healers and mechanics that prevent me from even playing the game.