Lack of the Choices of human ethnicities [Archive]

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Onyxstone

04-21-2010, 02:28 AM

Just wondering as a African american why there seems to be a lack of the ethic choies i.e. African, Asian, Native American, Latino in the world of EQ2. Just wondering why all toons tend to be Caucasian. Is it something you guys as devs have thought about? Just would like to see the change to see fimaliar faces every now and then like mine. Not that I worry about that just thought I would put it out there that not all who Quest are the same and maybe a little diversity would better show a world population and not a mono-chrome one.

Cusashorn

04-21-2010, 03:29 AM

You'd fit right in with the Erudites before they changed themselves from intellegent black people to highly gullible grey people.My opinion: The Human race on Norrath is a work of fiction. They're not suppose to represent the Human race that exists on Earth. At the risk of stirring up controversy, how many combonations can you have before you're no longer considered Black, or Asian, or Indian, or Hispanic by the public eye? Caucasian itself is only a word to describe white people on a generic level. If not for that word, then we'd be identifying white people on a country by country basis. Caucasians don't exist in Norrath though. Only Humans, and what they have is what they have.I do have to agree though that when the game first launched, they said they'd give the Humans various skin tones. The darkest available just makes them look like they were painted brown, and not actually brown.

Rick777

04-21-2010, 09:20 AM

I don't understand the concern. You can choose a human and make them have dark skin and even change their facial features to match an ethnicity. Anything beyond that is just beyond the capabilities of the graphics.Edit: On second read I see you mean more of the NPC's in the world. I think it depends on the area. Go to sinking sands and you will see everyone is middle eastern looking for example. I know what you mean though, they could stand to put in a little more variety generally in the entire game.

MrWolfie

04-21-2010, 09:26 AM

<cite>Onyxstone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just wondering as a African american why there seems to be a lack of the ethic choies i.e. African, Asian, Native American, Latino in the world of EQ2. Just wondering why all toons tend to be Caucasian. Is it something you guys as devs have thought about? Just would like to see the change to see fimaliar faces every now and then like mine. Not that I worry about that just thought I would put it out there that not all who Quest are the same and maybe a little diversity would better show a world population and not a mono-chrome one.</blockquote>There's plenty of ethnic choices. But Africans, Asians, Native Americans...etc are all NATIVE to the EARTH. You can pick whatever skin colour you like for your human, but they'll never be an African because Africans come from Africa, which is a continent on Earth. Africa does not exist on Norrath therefore Africans do not exist there either - the same applies to Asians, Latinos, Native Americans, Scandinavians, Russians or Arabians. There aren't even any Scousers - none! - can you believe it!!But if it's diversity you want, there's walking lizards, hopping frogmen, talking rats, gnomes and halflings in various sizes, men, women, erudites & barbarians, slinky catpeople, trolls & ogres, elves of all shades and fluttering fae - all coming in a veritable rainbow of skin tones, patterns and body decoration.

Brook

04-21-2010, 10:28 AM

<cite>Onyxstone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just wondering as a African american why there seems to be a lack of the ethic choies i.e. African, Asian, Native American, Latino in the world of EQ2. Just wondering why all toons tend to be Caucasian. Is it something you guys as devs have thought about? Just would like to see the change to see fimaliar faces every now and then like mine. Not that I worry about that just thought I would put it out there that not all who Quest are the same and maybe a little diversity would better show a world population and not a mono-chrome one.</blockquote>In a game where Pandas talk and Skellies giggle while beating on you, I don't see a problem with the diversity. This is a fantasy game.What exactly do you consider mono-chrome?

Onyxstone

04-21-2010, 10:30 AM

Yes i do agree with you that africa is on earth. But my only point was to bring it to the devs that maybe some varity of people in world would work. As in vangaurd which I love did this with great care the blacks there have features of africans. Which is all i wanted to say. And to you all thanks for not flamming me as i know this is a touchy subject in oour sometimes overly PC world.

Seidhkona

04-21-2010, 02:31 PM

<cite>Onyxstone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just wondering as a African american why there seems to be a lack of the ethic choies i.e. African, Asian, Native American, Latino in the world of EQ2.</blockquote> As a girl who is about as white and pale as a human can get without being albino, I actually disagree with your basic premise. <img src="http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs50/f/2009/282/e/9/Look_Alikes_by_Sigrdrifa1.png" />Sigrdrifa the Paladin and in RL I personally have two characters who are deliberately non-Caucasian. One is human, but her background is <a href="http://roseknights.yuku.com/topic/21" target="_blank">a bedouin-like Djinn heritage</a>. The other is a halfling. <img src="http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/94426c14db0c582a59724cf2ec7783066a9bf83f.jpg" /> It is quite possible to achieve a wide range of appearances for many races, including some that have the flavor of African, Asian, Native American, and Latino people. <a href="http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/111/d/f/Race_and_Ethnicity_by_Sigrdrifa1.jpg" target="_blank"><img title="Dark Beauties" src="http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/111/d/f/Race_and_Ethnicity_by_Sigrdrifa1.jpg" width="800" /></a><a href="http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/111/d/f/Race_and_Ethnicity_by_Sigrdrifa1.jpg" target="_blank">Click to Enlarge</a> There are some races that don't allow darker coloring, including dwarves, fae (they will go greyish or bluish), high elves (based on the ljósalfar or "light elves" of Norse myth, via Tolkien), gnomes only sort of have darker colorings. <cite>Onyxstone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just wondering why all toons tend to be Caucasian.</blockquote> The <a href="http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/gateway_identity.html" target="_blank">Daedalus Project</a> found that "Introverted players tend to create characters that are projections or idealizations of themselves, while extraverted players tend to experiment with new identities through their characters." I've not located a specific demographic study on ethnicity/race among MMORPG players, but I would be unsurprised to find that quite a lot are indeed Caucasian, and thus in some cases at least the characters they create reflect their idealized selves. While trying to turn up a good demographic study that examined player race/ethnicity, I did happen across an interesting article by Lisa Nakamura, <a href="http://www.humanities.uci.edu/mposter/syllabi/readings/nakamura.html" target="_blank">"Race In/For Cyberspace: Identity Tourism and Racial Passing on the Internet"</a>. Nakamura looks at the trope of "On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog!": <img src="http://www.unc.edu/courses/jomc050/idog.jpg" /> In one MMO, Nakamura noted that, "Players who elect to describe themselves in racial terms, as Asian, African American, Latino, or other members of oppressed and marginalized minorities, are often seen as engaging in a form of hostile performance, since they introduce what many consider a real life 'divisive issue' into the phantasmatic world of cybernetic textual interaction." Speaking personally as a Caucasian, I did in fact consider whether I was being disrespectful of other ethnicities when I created my non-Caucasian characters described above, and I can see how this might in fact drive white players away from ethnic exploration in their online avatars. Nakamura goes on to examine some cases of white players hijacking Asian themes to create hackneyed, almost jingoistic or sexually fetishized alternate personae as non-Caucasian characters. William Huber makes <a href="http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2004/11/ragnarok_musing.html#c2856682" target="_blank">a comment about Asian MMOs deliberately obscuring race</a>: "Koichi Iwabuchi has written about mukukoseki, or "without nation", as a design principle in Japanese cultural exports. A conscious de-racination occurs to the extent reasonably possible to access foreign markets: in the case of rendered forms (anime, video games) the effect are figures that could be broadly Asian or European; in the case of video, the purpose is to create a sort of pan-Asian universality, as other Asian markets for television dramas become attractive (especially the Taiwan market). I think that this principle has informed figuration in other Asian videogames, as well." I do not see mukukoseki operating strongly in EverQuest 2, even though SOE has its own Asian heritage. <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/news_ff.vm?FeatureName=SOGAmodels" target="_blank">SOE introduced its SOGA models</a> to appeal to a non-Western customer base, but in doing so simply adopted a more anime esthetic, without obscuring the customizability of skin tone or feature that characterize the EQ2 character creation process: "These character models were created as part of the EverQuest II East project, in which Sony Online Entertainment partnered with Gamania to form SOGA and truly localize EQII for the Asian market." Another factor is the huge intellectual and conceptual debt all fantasy literature and games owe to J.R.R. Tolkien and his world of Middle Earth. Tolkien was a scholar of Northern European languages, literature, and mythology, and he was <a href="http://www.tolkien-online.com/tolkien-and-mythology.html" target="_blank">consciously looking for a unified and comprehensive mythology that he felt Britain lacked</a>. This new mythology Tolkien created, being based on Norse, Old English, Finnish and other Northern European cultures was and is one full of white, Caucasian-appearing people, often contrasted strongly with dark bestial enemies, to a degree that some people see Tolkien as <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2002/dec/02/jrrtolkien.lordoftherings" target="_blank">racist</a> and <a href="http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/jan/08lord.htm" target="_blank">bigoted</a>. <cite>Onyxstone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just would like to see the change to see fimaliar faces every now and then like mine. Not that I worry about that just thought I would put it out there that not all who Quest are the same and maybe a little diversity would better show a world population and not a mono-chrome one.</blockquote> You can certainly customize your own character quite a lot. And if you look, there are non-white NPCs throughout the world here and there also.

Onyxstone

04-21-2010, 03:12 PM

this is just what i hoped to avoid. highly charged replys that i am wrong in my opinon. as you can see the of your toon while brown the still have white feaures. and to state that we as players would choses to play the ideal toon (beingwhite) i think narrow minded again VG took the time to populate it's world with all manner of elf orc and such and humans have actual features of our different ethinities. but again this wasonly to point out to Devs that maybe actual black people with the time and care like in VG could have features of black people not just painted white people. And lets not takethis s some flame post i have other thing that need my attention like being stuff on the zone screen for 1.5 hoursthisgame is home for me ihave played sence day one taken brakes but always here and no consern no race hating. as i play a half-elf who at the start of game alot of pepole thougt i was one of the frist to betray freeport to come to qeynos due to thefact that i made him a mix of darkelf and human so i have played him as such and love EQ2

Seidhkona

04-21-2010, 04:32 PM

<cite>Onyxstone wrote:</cite><blockquote>this is just what i hoped to avoid. highly charged replys that i am wrong in my opinon.</blockquote>There was zero emotional charging in my response to you. Your opinion is yours, of course, but as I showed with just a few minutes work with the character creation screen, you can get a wide range of appearances.I do look at the issue <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=444487" target="_blank">as an artist</a>, because facial features convey a lot of meaning in art.<cite>Onyxstone wrote:</cite><blockquote>as you can see the of your toon while brown the still have white feaures.</blockquote>Some races do have more Caucasian features. But you can get some very non-WASP looks with a little experimentation on many races. If you are saying you want a less aquiline nose and fuller lips, you can get that with most of the models.<cite>Onyxstone wrote:</cite><blockquote>and to state that we as players would choses to play the ideal toon (beingwhite) i think narrow minded again</blockquote>I am DEAD certain I said no such thing. What I DID say is that I think, with experimentation, you can achieve some of what you want using the current models.<cite>Onyxstone wrote:</cite><blockquote>VG took the time to populate it's world with all manner of elf orc and such and humans have actual features of our different ethinities. but again this wasonly to point out to Devs that maybe actual black people with the time and care like in VG could have features of black people not just painted white people.</blockquote>I haven't played Vanguard so I can't speak for its character models. But you are saying that you have tried both SOGA and regular models, with all the adjustments, and can't get a non-Caucasian set of features? That's very different from my own experience.Can you give examples or screenshots or link to photos of the kind of facial features you want to be able to use? Because if you will, I will see how close I can come with the current character generation process.Note, I am not invalidating your feelings or opinions, I am trying to assist you in getting what you are after.<cite>Onyxstone wrote:</cite><blockquote>And lets not takethis s some flame post i have other thing that need my attention like being stuff on the zone screen for 1.5 hours</blockquote>My response to you was very carefully thought out. I really gave it some effort to try and show you that there were possibilities that perhaps you had overlooked. If you thought it was a flame, then you need to get some asbestos jammies.I reiterate the offer. Come up with one or more photos or line drawings of the facial features youi want to have in a toon, and I will see how close I can come using the current character models.<cite>Onyxstone wrote:</cite><blockquote>thisgame is home for me ihave played sence day one taken brakes but always here and no consern no race hating. as i play a half-elf who at the start of game alot of pepole thougt i was one of the frist to betray freeport to come to qeynos due to thefact that i made him a mix of darkelf and human so i have played him as such and love EQ2</blockquote>I'm not sure what you were trying to say here. But there's no racism or race-hating going on in my posts. I'm attempting to see if I can help you get closer to the appearance you want.Now, I agree that half-elves don't have a wide range of customization options. They look fairly anime to me in general. But honestly, all the elven races kind of derive from <a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurElvesAreBetter" target="_blank">the stereotypical "elf template"</a>.

Zabjade

04-21-2010, 07:41 PM

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q97_Y4jkI0&feature=related" target="_blank">Midieval Weapon</a> <----

Rainmare

04-21-2010, 09:58 PM

First off, your wrong about Vanguard. flat out wrong.yes, they did take time to 'ethicize' populations. but no more then Eq2 did. if you lives in Thestra, EVERYONE is a norse/caucasian. if you like in the 'Asian' continent, EVERYONE is asian. you can't even start a 'thestra' toon in the asian contient, and vice versa.and as Sig said, you can create what you would consider the 'ethnic' look of 'african' people in Eq2. you can make the broad somewhat flat nose, adn you can certainly achieve the thicker lips and skintone.But you must also remember, adn here's the big thing, there IS no africa in norrath. and I don't mean it as a 'real world' comparision...I mean that the physical enviroment that produced that look doesn't exist in an area the 'human' race lived. the barbarians have the Norse look..they same type of enviroment spawned them.the only jungle enviroments EQ2 has is Kunark. and the Iksar are there. humans don't come from there.They did in Eq1, have what you would consider an african race. the Erudites. and from my personal experience, in five years playing that game, I can count the amount of erudites I saw on both hands and still have fingers left over.as for NPCs...the aforementioned arguement. the npcs are families/people that have been in these areas a LONG time. antonica is basically a caucasion continent, like europe/russia. naturally, 95% of the npcs are going to be caucasian. if you go to Kunark, all of the npcs are naturally the dominant race...Iksar, with the few from Terran's grasp (remenants of a pair of outposts of the other races in eq1)the Ro desert has an arabian enviroment, and the npcs have an arabian look to match. Mara has an oriental look, and the ethic look of the people match it. there is no african enviroment that humans lived in on norrath. Sorry, the Iksar got there first.but you can create the look you want, if you just take the time and play with the sliders for your pc.

Rijacki

04-22-2010, 01:02 AM

An old picture (with a piece of armor that had its appearance changed) but.. it is possible to be 'brown' with an Erudite.<img src="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rijacki/Ohelia/bikini0.jpg" width="318" height="684" />I could have chosen a much wider nose and all, but not all Africans (even those direct from Africa) have wide noses. There is a lot of variation even in the non-caucasian races (as there is in the caucasian, too).But, the reason I made my dirge the colour she is.. I loved the Erudites in EQ1 and their city.

Zabjade

04-22-2010, 01:41 AM

Sadly that piece was removed from the game due to the fact it was "too pixelated" and is never to return. I still wish they would fix it. Oddly my Test Iksar when using a Petrified Human eye/Soga Model (She is a Monk in Qeynos and the snide remarks get old after a while) has a very dark brown skintone and dark hair, I happen to like it enough to keep although I wish there where more hairstyles avalible

Rahz

04-24-2010, 03:27 PM

I would have to agree with this 100%, AND with ethnic armor and weapons as well.

CorpseGoddess

04-25-2010, 03:02 PM

<cite>Rahzek wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would have to agree with this 100%, AND with ethnic armor and weapons as well. </blockquote>There are no "ethnicities" in Norrath, except the ones that are already there. Dark Elves are ethnic. Fay are ethnic. Humans are just "human", with the available skin tones we have. Humans have no "ethnicities" in this game, they just have different shades of skin colour, just like, say, Arasai. Get it? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />

aquavia

04-25-2010, 04:23 PM

Onyxstone, for what it's worth, I agree with your concern. There's a major lack of positive representations of people of color in fantasy games. And for the folks saying that Norrath is a fantasy world and human races don't exist here...have you forgotten about the Village of Shin, with its obvious Asian people, or all the human NPCs in the DoF zones who are obvious Arab/Persian/otherwise Middle Eastern representations? These are clearly tied to real-world ethnicities, but are treated as exotic fantasy, since most people who play this game don't come from those real-life backgrounds. Outside of the possibility of illusions, the Shin and DoF models aren't available as player characters.Probably the best handling of race that I've seen in a game is in Asheron's Call, although the graphics are dismal by today's standards. Also, Age of Conan has some decent representations of people of color. AoC is based on Robert E. Howard's pseudo-historical fantasy world, and for that reason the actual lore of most of the people of color is problematic (and I say that as a lover of Howard's writing). As it stands now, they've still got the "dark folks = brutal and evil" thing going, but at least the physical representation is halfway decent, and you can roleplay against the lore.

Rahz

04-26-2010, 12:51 PM

<cite>Streppoch@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rahzek wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would have to agree with this 100%, AND with ethnic armor and weapons as well. </blockquote>There are no "ethnicities" in Norrath, except the ones that are already there. Dark Elves are ethnic. Fay are ethnic. Humans are just "human", with the available skin tones we have. Humans have no "ethnicities" in this game, they just have different shades of skin colour, just like, say, Arasai. Get it? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I get it, but i dont think you do. The OP WANTS this in the game because its not there. Hes asking for that option, and theres nothing wrong with options, because if you dont like it, you can choose not to use it.

Seidhkona

04-26-2010, 02:01 PM

<cite>Rahzek wrote:</cite><blockquote>I get it, but i dont think you do. The OP WANTS this in the game because its not there. Hes asking for that option, and theres nothing wrong with options, because if you dont like it, you can choose not to use it.</blockquote>See, I don't agree with you because I think you CAN, using current sharacter customizations, get some pretty good representations of people of color.As I have said repeatedly, if someone will post a photo, screenshot, or line drawing of what they want the toon to look like, I will be glad to see how close to that I can come using the in-game tools.

Roslyn

04-26-2010, 02:46 PM

Typical "magic replaces logic" argument, it still isn't working. And VG races were fantastic, although admittedly they did go with the lore. Unfortunately, I think it's too late for the character models in this game - and pah-lease don't try to tell me you can color the skin darker therefore they're suddenly not chocolate pudding-colored white people. I would love a tribal society type adventuring area that isn't kerra or iksar! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Seidhkona

05-01-2010, 11:25 AM

<cite>Roslyn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Typical "magic replaces logic" argument, it still isn't working. And VG races were fantastic, although admittedly they did go with the lore. Unfortunately, I think it's too late for the character models in this game - and pah-lease don't try to tell me you can color the skin darker therefore they're suddenly not chocolate pudding-colored white people. I would love a tribal society type adventuring area that isn't kerra or iksar! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I am telling you that you can change the features of your toons so they don't look like Northern EUropean Caucasians. If you will provide me with a URL to a photo, or a screenshot from some other game, or whatever, I will do my best to match that appearance in EQ2.Put your money where your accusations are. Give us an image and lets see if we can get close!