autoattacks > spells

[bks6721]

<p>should scout autoattacks hit for more damage than mage spells?   discuss</p>

[Stuckx]

<p>No. Now prepare to be bombarded by a bunch of stupid meleers trying to justify why their auto attack should hit so hard. I mean..they have to be IN RANGE to get them off..that's so hard and dangerous.</p>

[Portbott]

<p>Couldn't have summed that up better, Tricky</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p>Holy crap, stop with the QQ till you get the re-fix, at least you will get yours within 3 months,then if it's still bad keep crying</p>

[Stuckx]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Holy crap, stop with the QQ till you get the re-fix, at least you will get yours within 3 months,then if it's still bad keep crying</p></blockquote><p>I can already tell you that 15% damage isn't going to help summoners at all. We'll still die withing 5 seconds of a melee getting ontop of us,and we still wont be able to kill anyone.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p>It's been what maybe 2 weeks though since the casters broken reign was fixed (little overly so, hence the fix Inc) and there have been so many casters complaining when everyone else had to put up with caster domination for 3 months, sit tight, let the change happen, feedback if it isn't enough after that, not while a change is pending</p>

[bks6721]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Holy crap, stop with the QQ till you get the re-fix, at least you will get yours within 3 months,then if it's still bad keep crying</p></blockquote><p>what does your autoattack hit for?  Can you swing a hammer and do more damage than a conj casting a spell?</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

500 ish, your point?

[bks6721]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It's been what maybe 2 weeks though since the casters broken reign was fixed (little overly so, hence the fix Inc) and there have been so many casters complaining when everyone else had to put up with caster domination for 3 months, sit tight, let the change happen, feedback if it isn't enough after that, not while a change is pending</p></blockquote><p>If a caster killing in 5 seconds or less was "broken" then its pretty clear that scouts killing in that same time is also broken and NEEDS to be addressed.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p>Love how you went nowhere with my autoattack damage.</p><p>Casters were killing well geared players in 1(one) hostile action, warlocks could decimate whole groups in 1-2 casts, how many scouts do you see doing that? If you have a good tank, that scout while so next to no damage to the tank and never really get off them</p>

[bks6721]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Love how you went nowhere with my autoattack damage.</p><p>Casters were killing well geared players in 1(one) hostile action, warlocks could decimate whole groups in 1-2 casts, how many scouts do you see doing that? If you have a good tank, that scout while so next to no damage to the tank and never really get off them</p></blockquote><p>I didn't need to.  You said you hit about 500 autoattack.  Ask a conj how many spells he has that do LESS damage.  Then justify why you can do more.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Jjay@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Love how you went nowhere with my autoattack damage.</p><p>Casters were killing well geared players in 1(one) hostile action, warlocks could decimate whole groups in 1-2 casts, how many scouts do you see doing that? If you have a good tank, that scout while so next to no damage to the tank and never really get off them</p></blockquote><p>I didn't need to.  You said you hit about 500 autoattack.  Ask a conj how many spells he has that do LESS damage.  Then justify why you can do more.</p></blockquote><p>I'm going to call bull on any conj hitting for less than 500 with their attacks, Maybe hitting at that ammount, but not less. On top of this, You are using "Spells" in your title, I'm going after your achetype, On other threads I have recognized that summoners need a slightly higher boost than 15%, along with enchanters, but Sorcs, Like  yourself, Do not</p>

[Shankapotomus]

<p>I love it!</p><p>So funny to see all of these mages with their first experience to PvP being total domination whine about how they are now taken out by a melee class because their single spell hot bar failed to put out enough damage.</p><p>Heres the thing, mages are now behind the learning curve of all the other classes. They came into BGs with no need for debuffs, roots, ports, stuns, good AA set up, or use for gear. All they had to do was click their damage buttons and poof, game over. Now you have to play like the rest of us, keep your buffs up, debuff or any other hindering to your opponent, and pull out the damage at the right time.</p><p>You guys need to realize you MUST be very high geared to stand up against a melee class now that you can't 1 shot them before they get close. Your mit is low, so if you let that scout swarm all over you as you try and sit there and cast your couple second spells, what do you expect to happen?</p><p>Quit complaing about how the patch hit you a little too hard and take the time to figure out those other buttons in your spell book that use more words than numbers. I'm a fury, so... a spellcaster of sorts... But I'm not crying because I have to keep my head a little deeper in my shell now.</p>

[Stuckx]

<p><cite>Shankapotomus@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I love it!</p><p>So funny to see all of these mages with their first experience to PvP being total domination whine about how they are now taken out by a melee class because their single spell hot bar failed to put out enough damage.</p><p>Heres the thing, mages are now behind the learning curve of all the other classes. They came into BGs with no need for debuffs, roots, ports, stuns, good AA set up, or use for gear. All they had to do was click their damage buttons and poof, game over. Now you have to play like the rest of us, keep your buffs up, debuff or any other hindering to your opponent, and pull out the damage at the right time.</p><p><span style="color: #888888;"><strong>You guys need to realize you MUST be very high geared to stand up against a melee class now that you can't 1 shot them before they get close. Your mit is low, so if you let that scout swarm all over you as you try and sit there and cast your couple second spells, what do you expect to happen?</strong></span></p><p>Quit complaing about how the patch hit you a little too hard and take the time to figure out those other buttons in your spell book that use more words than numbers. I'm a fury, so... a spellcaster of sorts... But I'm not crying because I have to keep my head a little deeper in my shell now.</p></blockquote><p>How about you s t f u and stop lumping the other four casters in with sorcerors? You act like all the other mage's are just as unkillable,when they're not. We die ten times fastr than sorcerors,and we(summoners atleast) do ten times LESS damage.</p><p>The bolded part is amusing to say the least. Why should mage's have to be high geared to compete,but a melee class can just walk up,stun/interrupt me,and kill me in 1-3 rounds of auto attack? Sorcerors != other mages. Get that through your thick skull. I get it..you're mad because sorcerors were oneshotting you..fine..it's fixed now..but I'm tired of all you ignorant meleers trying to lump my class in with sorcerors,who have the survivability of a tank. I have absolutely zero survivability in PVP..is someone targets me,90% of the time I will die within 5 seconds.</p>

[bks6721]

<p><cite>Shankapotomus@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I love it!</p><p>So funny to see all of these mages with their first experience to PvP being total domination whine about how they are now taken out by a melee class because their single spell hot bar failed to put out enough damage.</p><p>Heres the thing, mages are now behind the learning curve of all the other classes. They came into BGs with no need for debuffs, roots, ports, stuns, good AA set up, or use for gear. All they had to do was click their damage buttons and poof, game over. Now you have to play like the rest of us, keep your buffs up, debuff or any other hindering to your opponent, and pull out the damage at the right time.</p><p>You guys need to realize you MUST be very high geared to stand up against a melee class now that you can't 1 shot them before they get close. Your mit is low, so if you let that scout swarm all over you as you try and sit there and cast your couple second spells, what do you expect to happen?</p><p>Quit complaing about how the patch hit you a little too hard and take the time to figure out those other buttons in your spell book that use more words than numbers. I'm a fury, so... a spellcaster of sorts... But I'm not crying because I have to keep my head a little deeper in my shell now.</p></blockquote><p>I'm confused.   You think a scout autoattack should hit for more damage than a "not crit/double attack" mage spell?   You kinda went off on a rant that is off topic.</p><p>Considering I have much more health that you, it wouldn't be a stretch to assume I might even have more mit than you btw.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Stuckx@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Shankapotomus@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I love it!</p><p>So funny to see all of these mages with their first experience to PvP being total domination whine about how they are now taken out by a melee class because their single spell hot bar failed to put out enough damage.</p><p>Heres the thing, mages are now behind the learning curve of all the other classes. They came into BGs with no need for debuffs, roots, ports, stuns, good AA set up, or use for gear. All they had to do was click their damage buttons and poof, game over. Now you have to play like the rest of us, keep your buffs up, debuff or any other hindering to your opponent, and pull out the damage at the right time.</p><p><span style="color: #888888;"><strong>You guys need to realize you MUST be very high geared to stand up against a melee class now that you can't 1 shot them before they get close. Your mit is low, so if you let that scout swarm all over you as you try and sit there and cast your couple second spells, what do you expect to happen?</strong></span></p><p>Quit complaing about how the patch hit you a little too hard and take the time to figure out those other buttons in your spell book that use more words than numbers. I'm a fury, so... a spellcaster of sorts... But I'm not crying because I have to keep my head a little deeper in my shell now.</p></blockquote><p>How about you s t f u and stop lumping the other four casters in with sorcerors? You act like all the other mage's are just as unkillable,when they're not. We die ten times fastr than sorcerors,and we(summoners atleast) do ten times LESS damage.</p><p>The bolded part is amusing to say the least. Why should mage's have to be high geared to compete,but a melee class can just walk up,stun/interrupt me,and kill me in 1-3 rounds of auto attack? Sorcerors != other mages. Get that through your thick skull. I get it..you're mad because sorcerors were oneshotting you..fine..it's fixed now..but I'm tired of all you ignorant meleers trying to lump my class in with sorcerors,who have the survivability of a tank. I have absolutely zero survivability in PVP..is someone targets me,90% of the time I will die within 5 seconds.</p></blockquote><p>Can you honestly say you weren't nearly as OP with EB and ET too? Be honest here. I mean yes they hit Summoners and chanters harder than they should have with the buff, but you guys were still putting out assinine numbers too. Sorcs slightly more so, but you guys just hit a lot of moderate damage really really fast, IE. 6 ET Triggers off 1 attack + The Attacks damage.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Jjay@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Shankapotomus@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I love it!</p><p>So funny to see all of these mages with their first experience to PvP being total domination whine about how they are now taken out by a melee class because their single spell hot bar failed to put out enough damage.</p><p>Heres the thing, mages are now behind the learning curve of all the other classes. They came into BGs with no need for debuffs, roots, ports, stuns, good AA set up, or use for gear. All they had to do was click their damage buttons and poof, game over. Now you have to play like the rest of us, keep your buffs up, debuff or any other hindering to your opponent, and pull out the damage at the right time.</p><p>You guys need to realize you MUST be very high geared to stand up against a melee class now that you can't 1 shot them before they get close. Your mit is low, so if you let that scout swarm all over you as you try and sit there and cast your couple second spells, what do you expect to happen?</p><p>Quit complaing about how the patch hit you a little too hard and take the time to figure out those other buttons in your spell book that use more words than numbers. I'm a fury, so... a spellcaster of sorts... But I'm not crying because I have to keep my head a little deeper in my shell now.</p></blockquote><p>I'm confused.   You think a scout autoattack should hit for more damage than a "not crit/double attack" mage spell?   You kinda went off on a rant that is off topic.</p><p>Considering I have much more health that you, it wouldn't be a stretch to assume I might even have more mit than you btw.</p></blockquote><p>Health Buffs and stuff don't show up in Sigs, If you have never noticed that...</p><p>I have 19.2k Health Self Buffed on my templar, and I'm totally lacking adorns ATM. Not the 14.whatever K my sig says</p>

[Shankapotomus]

<p><cite>Stuckx@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Shankapotomus@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I love it!</p><p>So funny to see all of these mages with their first experience to PvP being total domination whine about how they are now taken out by a melee class because their single spell hot bar failed to put out enough damage.</p><p>Heres the thing, mages are now behind the learning curve of all the other classes. They came into BGs with no need for debuffs, roots, ports, stuns, good AA set up, or use for gear. All they had to do was click their damage buttons and poof, game over. Now you have to play like the rest of us, keep your buffs up, debuff or any other hindering to your opponent, and pull out the damage at the right time.</p><p><span style="color: #888888;"><strong>You guys need to realize you MUST be very high geared to stand up against a melee class now that you can't 1 shot them before they get close. Your mit is low, so if you let that scout swarm all over you as you try and sit there and cast your couple second spells, what do you expect to happen?</strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Quit complaing about how the patch hit you a little too hard</span> and take the time to figure out those other buttons in your spell book that use more words than numbers. <span style="font-size: x-small; color: #00ff00;"><strong>I'm a fury</strong></span>, so... a spellcaster of sorts... But I'm not crying because I have to keep my head a little deeper in my shell now.</p></blockquote><p>How about you s t f u and stop lumping the other four casters in with sorcerors? You act like all the other mage's are just as unkillable,when they're not. We die ten times fastr than sorcerors,and we(summoners atleast) do ten times LESS damage.</p><p>The bolded part is amusing to say the least. Why should mage's have to be high geared to compete,but a melee class can just walk up,stun/interrupt me,and kill me in 1-3 rounds of auto attack? Sorcerors != other mages. Get that through your thick skull. I get it..you're mad because sorcerors were oneshotting you..fine..it's fixed now..but I'm tired of all you ignorant meleers trying to lump my class in with sorcerors,who have the survivability of a tank. I have absolutely zero survivability in PVP..is someone targets me,90% of the time I will die within 5 seconds.</p></blockquote><p>Because the gear of the melee class made no difference before the fix because their resist were not even being put into the equation...</p><p>1-3 rounds of auto attacks is about 4-9 seconds (probably more), can you not find your potion, charm, or AA proc (or anything else) that dispels stuns? O wait, I bet you have failed to set those up on your hot bars. </p><p>I don't understand you complaints about survivability. Was your current gear changed to be less effective?</p><p>And please stop lumping yourself in with other summoners, I know players who would totally disown you from their class if they heard such talk about not being able to do damage or only living for 5 seconds.</p><p>Like stated, your fix is coming, and after that things will be reassest. But my magic eight ball says your cries will still be forecoming.</p>

[Stuckx]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Stuckx@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Shankapotomus@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I love it!</p><p>So funny to see all of these mages with their first experience to PvP being total domination whine about how they are now taken out by a melee class because their single spell hot bar failed to put out enough damage.</p><p>Heres the thing, mages are now behind the learning curve of all the other classes. They came into BGs with no need for debuffs, roots, ports, stuns, good AA set up, or use for gear. All they had to do was click their damage buttons and poof, game over. Now you have to play like the rest of us, keep your buffs up, debuff or any other hindering to your opponent, and pull out the damage at the right time.</p><p><span style="color: #888888;"><strong>You guys need to realize you MUST be very high geared to stand up against a melee class now that you can't 1 shot them before they get close. Your mit is low, so if you let that scout swarm all over you as you try and sit there and cast your couple second spells, what do you expect to happen?</strong></span></p><p>Quit complaing about how the patch hit you a little too hard and take the time to figure out those other buttons in your spell book that use more words than numbers. I'm a fury, so... a spellcaster of sorts... But I'm not crying because I have to keep my head a little deeper in my shell now.</p></blockquote><p>How about you s t f u and stop lumping the other four casters in with sorcerors? You act like all the other mage's are just as unkillable,when they're not. We die ten times fastr than sorcerors,and we(summoners atleast) do ten times LESS damage.</p><p>The bolded part is amusing to say the least. Why should mage's have to be high geared to compete,but a melee class can just walk up,stun/interrupt me,and kill me in 1-3 rounds of auto attack? Sorcerors != other mages. Get that through your thick skull. I get it..you're mad because sorcerors were oneshotting you..fine..it's fixed now..but I'm tired of all you ignorant meleers trying to lump my class in with sorcerors,who have the survivability of a tank. I have absolutely zero survivability in PVP..is someone targets me,90% of the time I will die within 5 seconds.</p></blockquote><p>Can you honestly say you weren't nearly as OP with EB and ET too? Be honest here. I mean yes they hit Summoners and chanters harder than they should have with the buff, but you guys were still putting out assinine numbers too. Sorcs slightly more so, but you guys just hit a lot of moderate damage really really fast, IE. 6 ET Triggers off 1 attack + The Attacks damage.</p></blockquote><p>Only four triggers off ET,but I'm not saying EB wasn't OP(Though in PVP's state at the time it was entirely necessary to compete with oneshotting sorcs,meleers killing non-sorc mage's in 5 seconds,crusaders healing like healers,and healers taking damage like god's.)</p><p>Now conjurors can't compete in any way. We still die within 5 seconds,and now we can't put out enough damage to hurt anyone.</p>

[bks6721]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Jjay@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Shankapotomus@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I love it!</p><p>So funny to see all of these mages with their first experience to PvP being total domination whine about how they are now taken out by a melee class because their single spell hot bar failed to put out enough damage.</p><p>Heres the thing, mages are now behind the learning curve of all the other classes. They came into BGs with no need for debuffs, roots, ports, stuns, good AA set up, or use for gear. All they had to do was click their damage buttons and poof, game over. Now you have to play like the rest of us, keep your buffs up, debuff or any other hindering to your opponent, and pull out the damage at the right time.</p><p>You guys need to realize you MUST be very high geared to stand up against a melee class now that you can't 1 shot them before they get close. Your mit is low, so if you let that scout swarm all over you as you try and sit there and cast your couple second spells, what do you expect to happen?</p><p>Quit complaing about how the patch hit you a little too hard and take the time to figure out those other buttons in your spell book that use more words than numbers. I'm a fury, so... a spellcaster of sorts... But I'm not crying because I have to keep my head a little deeper in my shell now.</p></blockquote><p>I'm confused.   You think a scout autoattack should hit for more damage than a "not crit/double attack" mage spell?   You kinda went off on a rant that is off topic.</p><p>Considering I have much more health that you, it wouldn't be a stretch to assume I might even have more mit than you btw.</p></blockquote><p>Health Buffs and stuff don't show up in Sigs, If you have never noticed that...</p><p>I have 19.2k Health Self Buffed on my templar, and I'm totally lacking adorns ATM. Not the 14.whatever K my sig says</p></blockquote><p>ok, you have more.  I'm only at 15k</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Stuckx@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Stuckx@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Shankapotomus@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I love it!</p><p>So funny to see all of these mages with their first experience to PvP being total domination whine about how they are now taken out by a melee class because their single spell hot bar failed to put out enough damage.</p><p>Heres the thing, mages are now behind the learning curve of all the other classes. They came into BGs with no need for debuffs, roots, ports, stuns, good AA set up, or use for gear. All they had to do was click their damage buttons and poof, game over. Now you have to play like the rest of us, keep your buffs up, debuff or any other hindering to your opponent, and pull out the damage at the right time.</p><p><span style="color: #888888;"><strong>You guys need to realize you MUST be very high geared to stand up against a melee class now that you can't 1 shot them before they get close. Your mit is low, so if you let that scout swarm all over you as you try and sit there and cast your couple second spells, what do you expect to happen?</strong></span></p><p>Quit complaing about how the patch hit you a little too hard and take the time to figure out those other buttons in your spell book that use more words than numbers. I'm a fury, so... a spellcaster of sorts... But I'm not crying because I have to keep my head a little deeper in my shell now.</p></blockquote><p>How about you s t f u and stop lumping the other four casters in with sorcerors? You act like all the other mage's are just as unkillable,when they're not. We die ten times fastr than sorcerors,and we(summoners atleast) do ten times LESS damage.</p><p>The bolded part is amusing to say the least. Why should mage's have to be high geared to compete,but a melee class can just walk up,stun/interrupt me,and kill me in 1-3 rounds of auto attack? Sorcerors != other mages. Get that through your thick skull. I get it..you're mad because sorcerors were oneshotting you..fine..it's fixed now..but I'm tired of all you ignorant meleers trying to lump my class in with sorcerors,who have the survivability of a tank. I have absolutely zero survivability in PVP..is someone targets me,90% of the time I will die within 5 seconds.</p></blockquote><p>Can you honestly say you weren't nearly as OP with EB and ET too? Be honest here. I mean yes they hit Summoners and chanters harder than they should have with the buff, but you guys were still putting out assinine numbers too. Sorcs slightly more so, but you guys just hit a lot of moderate damage really really fast, IE. 6 ET Triggers off 1 attack + The Attacks damage.</p></blockquote><p>Only four triggers off ET,but I'm not saying EB wasn't OP(Though in PVP's state at the time it was entirely necessary to compete with oneshotting sorcs,meleers killing non-sorc mage's in 5 seconds,crusaders healing like healers,and healers taking damage like god's.)</p><p>Now conjurors can't compete in any way. We still die within 5 seconds,and now we can't put out enough damage to hurt anyone.</p></blockquote><p>How only 4, ET triggers per person you hit on an encounter/AE hit. 6 People hit with AE/Encounter hit, 6 Triggers Per person in opposing group, No?</p>

[Shankapotomus]

<p><cite>Jjay@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Shankapotomus@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I love it!</p><p>So funny to see all of these mages with their first experience to PvP being total domination whine about how they are now taken out by a melee class because their single spell hot bar failed to put out enough damage.</p><p>Heres the thing, mages are now behind the learning curve of all the other classes. They came into BGs with no need for debuffs, roots, ports, stuns, good AA set up, or use for gear. All they had to do was click their damage buttons and poof, game over. Now you have to play like the rest of us, keep your buffs up, debuff or any other hindering to your opponent, and pull out the damage at the right time.</p><p>You guys need to realize you MUST be very high geared to stand up against a melee class now that you can't 1 shot them before they get close. Your mit is low, so if you let that scout swarm all over you as you try and sit there and cast your couple second spells, what do you expect to happen?</p><p>Quit complaing about how the patch hit you a little too hard and take the time to figure out those other buttons in your spell book that use more words than numbers. I'm a fury, so... a spellcaster of sorts... But I'm not crying because I have to keep my head a little deeper in my shell now.</p></blockquote><p>I'm confused.   You think a scout autoattack should hit for more damage than a "not crit/double attack" mage spell?   You kinda went off on a rant that is off topic.</p><p>Considering I have much more health that you, it wouldn't be a stretch to assume I might even have more mit than you btw.</p></blockquote><p>Ah...</p><p>Sorry didn't realize I had my Bard's cloak equipped instead of my PvP cape. Buffed and what not I have 16.8k health. And you most definitly don't have more mit, sorry.</p><p>Never stated what you decided to amply.</p>

[Stuckx]

<p><cite>Shankapotomus@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Stuckx@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Shankapotomus@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I love it!</p><p>So funny to see all of these mages with their first experience to PvP being total domination whine about how they are now taken out by a melee class because their single spell hot bar failed to put out enough damage.</p><p>Heres the thing, mages are now behind the learning curve of all the other classes. They came into BGs with no need for debuffs, roots, ports, stuns, good AA set up, or use for gear. All they had to do was click their damage buttons and poof, game over. Now you have to play like the rest of us, keep your buffs up, debuff or any other hindering to your opponent, and pull out the damage at the right time.</p><p><span style="color: #888888;"><strong>You guys need to realize you MUST be very high geared to stand up against a melee class now that you can't 1 shot them before they get close. Your mit is low, so if you let that scout swarm all over you as you try and sit there and cast your couple second spells, what do you expect to happen?</strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Quit complaing about how the patch hit you a little too hard</span> and take the time to figure out those other buttons in your spell book that use more words than numbers. <span style="color: #00ff00; font-size: x-small;"><strong>I'm a fury</strong></span>, so... a spellcaster of sorts... But I'm not crying because I have to keep my head a little deeper in my shell now.</p></blockquote><p>How about you s t f u and stop lumping the other four casters in with sorcerors? You act like all the other mage's are just as unkillable,when they're not. We die ten times fastr than sorcerors,and we(summoners atleast) do ten times LESS damage.</p><p>The bolded part is amusing to say the least. Why should mage's have to be high geared to compete,but a melee class can just walk up,stun/interrupt me,and kill me in 1-3 rounds of auto attack? Sorcerors != other mages. Get that through your thick skull. I get it..you're mad because sorcerors were oneshotting you..fine..it's fixed now..but I'm tired of all you ignorant meleers trying to lump my class in with sorcerors,who have the survivability of a tank. I have absolutely zero survivability in PVP..is someone targets me,90% of the time I will die within 5 seconds.</p></blockquote><p>Because the gear of the melee class made no difference before the fix because their resist were not even being put into the equation...</p><p>1-3 rounds of auto attacks is about 4-9 seconds (probably more), can you not find your potion, charm, or AA proc (or anything else) that dispels stuns? O wait, I bet you have failed to set those up on your hot bars. </p><p>I don't understand you complaints about survivability. Was your current gear changed to be less effective?</p><p>And please stop lumping yourself in with other summoners, I know players who would totally disown you from their class if they heard such talk about not being able to do damage or only living for 5 seconds.</p><p>Like stated, your fix is coming, and after that things will be reassest. But my magic eight ball says your cries will still be forecoming.</p></blockquote><p>I have stun potions on my hotbar,and I use them. I've been PVPing since the PVP server came out..I know how to play.</p><p>As far as survivability..my current gear was NEVER affective,and I am wearing full PVP gear. What you don't seem to understand is the FACT that sorcerors lack any form of defensive utility. Sure we get a a couple stoneskins,but they are completely useless when they absorb small attacks for 50 damage.</p><p>You know other summoners that are happy with this change? Name one.Go ahead..do it. And if they aren't level 90,they don't count because Bluebies dont have PVP gear for toughness at that level. If that other summoner you are referring to is Sihd..well Sihd was in terrible armor last I checked..of course..Sihd hasn't logged in that I have seen since the resists fix.</p><p>And Like I have stated.. this 'fix' isn't going to help summoners in the least. We're still going to have zero defence against melee..we're still going to die in five seconds,and instead of doing 500 damage,we'll be doing 575 with 15% added.</p>

[Trawe]

<p>i think most people should accept the fact that they are not the best of their class and try workingon themselfes instead of crying for nerfs left and right. of course the not so good mages (and please notice i dontmean this as an insult) mostly from pve server tried eq2 pvp for their first time and were able to melt faces w/o debuffingor cc or anything besides dmg. of course they started thinking "wow i so rock" obviously ignoring arguments from the moreveteran-to-pvp player. truth hurts i can understand that. but the changes that where done are good for players that know what to do. and imho it is sad that no one dares to think about advancing or getting a better tactic.</p>

[bks6721]

<p><cite>Trawe wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>i think most people should accept the fact that they are not the best of their class and try workingon themselfes instead of crying for nerfs left and right. of course the not so good mages (and please notice i dontmean this as an insult) mostly from pve server tried eq2 pvp for their first time and were able to melt faces w/o debuffingor cc or anything besides dmg. of course they started thinking "wow i so rock" obviously ignoring arguments from the moreveteran-to-pvp player. truth hurts i can understand that. but the changes that where done are good for players that know what to do. and imho it is sad that no one dares to think about advancing or getting a better tactic.</p></blockquote><p>I agree 100% but you didn't answer the question.  Should melee autoattack do more damage than ANY mage spell?  After all, relying on autoattack for damage takes no skill.</p>

[EasternKing]

<p><cite>Jjay@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Trawe wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>i think most people should accept the fact that they are not the best of their class and try workingon themselfes instead of crying for nerfs left and right. of course the not so good mages (and please notice i dontmean this as an insult) mostly from pve server tried eq2 pvp for their first time and were able to melt faces w/o debuffingor cc or anything besides dmg. of course they started thinking "wow i so rock" obviously ignoring arguments from the moreveteran-to-pvp player. truth hurts i can understand that. but the changes that where done are good for players that know what to do. and imho it is sad that no one dares to think about advancing or getting a better tactic.</p></blockquote><p>I agree 100% but you didn't answer the question.  Should melee autoattack do more damage than ANY mage spell?  After all, relying on autoattack for damage takes no skill.</p></blockquote><p>yes because hitting 1-2-3 requires skill right?</p><p>Lets not bring skill into this, there is ZERO skill in hitting buttons sequentially in EQ2.</p><p>Scouts are designed to melee mobs they get big swords and things, you saying that getting hit with a huge magical sword in the face is less deadly than a spell now? as that is what i am reading from your purile posts.</p><p>DEAD is dead, Damage is Damage regardless of the source of that damage.</p><p>You mages make me laugh, there is some skill in sitting 30mtrs from a mob, not even facing it and hitting your pre worked out spell rotation off ? seriously that is so fail it blows my mind.</p><p>I dont know a single mage, not a one and i have raided on most US/EU servers since T5 that can play a melee scout well, and i am talking top end mages here, scouts require so much more effort and work to get the same kind of results mages do.</p><p>I will  bet you hands down, i can out play you on your sorc, and you can try my Brigand on for size, then you can get back to me on which class is easier to dps with, and which class has less "skill" required to get your dps numbers.</p>

[Stuckx]

<p><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Jjay@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Trawe wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>i think most people should accept the fact that they are not the best of their class and try workingon themselfes instead of crying for nerfs left and right. of course the not so good mages (and please notice i dontmean this as an insult) mostly from pve server tried eq2 pvp for their first time and were able to melt faces w/o debuffingor cc or anything besides dmg. of course they started thinking "wow i so rock" obviously ignoring arguments from the moreveteran-to-pvp player. truth hurts i can understand that. but the changes that where done are good for players that know what to do. and imho it is sad that no one dares to think about advancing or getting a better tactic.</p></blockquote><p>I agree 100% but you didn't answer the question.  Should melee autoattack do more damage than ANY mage spell?  After all, relying on autoattack for damage takes no skill.</p></blockquote><p>yes because hitting 1-2-3 requires skill right?</p><p>Lets not bring skill into this, there is ZERO skill in hitting buttons sequentially in EQ2.</p><p>Scouts are designed to melee mobs they get big swords and things, you saying that getting hit with a huge magical sword in the face is less deadly than a spell now? as that is what i am reading from your purile posts.</p><p>DEAD is dead, Damage is Damage regardless of the source of that damage.</p><p>You mages make me laugh, there is some skill in sitting 30mtrs from a mob, not even facing it and hitting your pre worked out spell rotation off ? seriously that is so fail it blows my mind.</p><p>I dont know a single mage, not a one and i have raided on most US/EU servers since T5 that can play a melee scout well, and i am talking top end mages here, scouts require so much more effort and work to get the same kind of results mages do.</p><p>I will  bet you hands down, i can out play you on your sorc, and you can try my Brigand on for size, then you can get back to me on which class is easier to dps with, and which class has less "skill" required to get your dps numbers.</p></blockquote><p>This has absolutely nothing to do with raiding. No one cares that you have to joust for aoe's. This is about PVP. In PVP,a mage requires more skill to play. I'm not talking about sorcerors either..we all know sorcs can take a massive amount of damage. I'm talking about the other four mage's. The ones who can't survive a meleer beating on them for ten minutes. It takes more skill to try to stay ranged,while casting spells that require you to stand still,than it does for a melee class to run circles around us,spam clicking their CA's. I gaurantee you that every single meleer that plays this game runs around in circles around people spam clicking a single button until that spell goes off,then they spam click another..rinse and repeat.</p><p>Mage's have to worry about resists,recasting the spell,and trying to stay at range(Which is impossible,because any meleer that isn't completely stupid can simply walk up and start auto attacking that mage)</p>

[bks6721]

<p><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Jjay@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Trawe wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>i think most people should accept the fact that they are not the best of their class and try workingon themselfes instead of crying for nerfs left and right. of course the not so good mages (and please notice i dontmean this as an insult) mostly from pve server tried eq2 pvp for their first time and were able to melt faces w/o debuffingor cc or anything besides dmg. of course they started thinking "wow i so rock" obviously ignoring arguments from the moreveteran-to-pvp player. truth hurts i can understand that. but the changes that where done are good for players that know what to do. and imho it is sad that no one dares to think about advancing or getting a better tactic.</p></blockquote><p>I agree 100% but you didn't answer the question.  Should melee autoattack do more damage than ANY mage spell?  After all, relying on autoattack for damage takes no skill.</p></blockquote><p>yes because hitting 1-2-3 requires skill right?</p><p>Lets not bring skill into this, there is ZERO skill in hitting buttons sequentially in EQ2.</p><p>Scouts are designed to melee mobs they get big swords and things, you saying that getting hit with a huge magical sword in the face is less deadly than a spell now? as that is what i am reading from your purile posts.</p><p>DEAD is dead, Damage is Damage regardless of the source of that damage.</p><p>You mages make me laugh, there is some skill in sitting 30mtrs from a mob, not even facing it and hitting your pre worked out spell rotation off ? seriously that is so fail it blows my mind.</p><p>I dont know a single mage, not a one and i have raided on most US/EU servers since T5 that can play a melee scout well, and i am talking top end mages here, scouts require so much more effort and work to get the same kind of results mages do.</p><p>I will  bet you hands down, i can out play you on your sorc, and you can try my Brigand on for size, then you can get back to me on which class is easier to dps with, and which class has less "skill" required to get your dps numbers.</p></blockquote><p>well you just went from one extreme to the other on skill. First you say there is ZERO skill to hitting buttons then you go on the tell my how uber skilled you are.</p><p>However, you failed to answer the question which was about AUTOATTACK. </p><p>Personally I do feel it takes SLIGHTLY more skill to get off a succesful spell attack compared to you turning on AUTOATTACK. </p><p>You cannot convince me that turning on autoattack takes skill.  sorry</p><p>so, should your autoattack do more damage than some (obviously not all) mage spells?  I am not asking about you ca's, just autoattack, get it?</p><p>btw, for reference, what does your aa hit for on average?  I bet its more than most illy/coe/conj/necro spells.  amiright?</p>

[Dorsan]

<p>Guys, guys...</p><p>Scouts are just as dangerous as they were in TSO, no more no less. Give me the 15% spell damage increase they said they would and that's it. Heck, leave things just as they are now it still beats the skilless buttonmashing we (casters) were doing since SF came out. That ridiculous op-ness took out all joy from pvp and battlegrounds alike for me.</p><p>And Tricky I have no idea who you are, you seem to have appeared on the PvP scene when they introduced EB and now are struggling to get the OP-ness back, so please do not speak in the name of all summoners. Thank you.</p>

[Uskeab]

<p>in about 40 bg's my avg melee hit is abour 540 for my sk.</p><p>oh noes, might 30 shot someone with that kind of damage </p>

[Sydares]

<p>Wow, you're right. Autoattack is so brutal that it's parryable, blockable, dodgeable, deflectable, mitigatable, and --- wait, what? Look - against anything but cloth, autoattack is fine. You're wearing a dress - get over it.</p>

[EasternKing]

<p><cite>Jjay@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Jjay@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Trawe wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>i think most people should accept the fact that they are not the best of their class and try workingon themselfes instead of crying for nerfs left and right. of course the not so good mages (and please notice i dontmean this as an insult) mostly from pve server tried eq2 pvp for their first time and were able to melt faces w/o debuffingor cc or anything besides dmg. of course they started thinking "wow i so rock" obviously ignoring arguments from the moreveteran-to-pvp player. truth hurts i can understand that. but the changes that where done are good for players that know what to do. and imho it is sad that no one dares to think about advancing or getting a better tactic.</p></blockquote><p>I agree 100% but you didn't answer the question.  Should melee autoattack do more damage than ANY mage spell?  After all, relying on autoattack for damage takes no skill.</p></blockquote><p>yes because hitting 1-2-3 requires skill right?</p><p>Lets not bring skill into this, there is ZERO skill in hitting buttons sequentially in EQ2.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>S</strong></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>couts are designed to melee mobs they get big swords and things, you saying that getting hit with a huge magical sword in the face is less deadly than a spell now? as that is what i am reading from your purile posts</strong></span>.</p><p>DEAD is dead, Damage is Damage regardless of the source of that damage.</p><p>You mages make me laugh, there is some skill in sitting 30mtrs from a mob, not even facing it and hitting your pre worked out spell rotation off ? seriously that is so fail it blows my mind.</p><p>I dont know a single mage, not a one and i have raided on most US/EU servers since T5 that can play a melee scout well, and i am talking top end mages here, scouts require so much more effort and work to get the same kind of results mages do.</p><p>I will  bet you hands down, i can out play you on your sorc, and you can try my Brigand on for size, then you can get back to me on which class is easier to dps with, and which class has less "skill" required to get your dps numbers.</p></blockquote><p>well you just went from one extreme to the other on skill. First you say there is ZERO skill to hitting buttons then you go on the tell my how uber skilled you are.</p><p>However, you failed to answer the question which was about AUTOATTACK. </p><p>Personally I do feel it takes SLIGHTLY more skill to get off a succesful spell attack compared to you turning on AUTOATTACK. </p><p>You cannot convince me that turning on autoattack takes skill.  sorry</p><p>so, should your autoattack do more damage than some (obviously not all) mage spells?  I am not asking about you ca's, just autoattack, get it?</p><p>btw, for reference, what does your aa hit for on average?  I bet its more than most illy/coe/conj/necro spells.  amiright?</p></blockquote><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>S</strong></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>couts are designed to melee mobs they get big swords and things, you saying that getting hit with a huge magical sword in the face is less deadly than a spell now? as that is what i am reading from your purile posts</strong></span>.</p><p>And i never claimed it takes any sort of skill to parse well as a scout, i said it is harder to do, and that is because of the mechanics involved, and if there is zero skill involved in playing a scout, which anyone who knows anything is harder to play than a mage, there is certainly no skill involved in playing a mage, which negates your whole argument.</p><p>Clicking 1 key or 3 keys is hardly the epitome of challenge or difficulty.</p><p>Sword / Hammer / Mace / Morningstar / Dagger / any other sort of melee orientated weapon tends to be fatal when applied to the head, torso, or you know losing a limb that kinda stuff, please tell me again why they should not be deadly to people wearing cloth? i am dying to hear it.</p>

[Trynt]

<p><cite>Jjay@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Holy crap, stop with the QQ till you get the re-fix, at least you will get yours within 3 months,then if it's still bad keep crying</p></blockquote><p>what does your autoattack hit for?  Can you swing a hammer and do more damage than a conj casting a spell? </p></blockquote><p><cite><a href="mailto:Notsovilepriest@Nagafen">Notsovilepriest@Nagafen</a> wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>500 ish, your point?</blockquote>

[steelbadger]

<p><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sword / Hammer / Mace / Morningstar / Dagger / any other sort of melee orientated weapon tends to be fatal when applied to the head, torso, or you know losing a limb that kinda stuff, please tell me again why they should not be deadly to people wearing cloth? i am dying to hear it.</p></blockquote><p>Wot?</p><p>Conjured demonic fires, bolts of lightening and opening a rift in the fabric of reality at someone's feet would be pretty fatal too, y'know?</p><p>You didn't seriously try to advance your point of view by including "realism" in the analysis of a game with magic, did you?</p><p>Cos, y'know, in terms of realism, armour should increase dmg done by heat and electicity based attacks.  It should also have no effect against crushing blows either as blunt force trauma is not mitigated by plate armour.  Oh, and everyone should fall over and start bleeding most distressingly after a single injury.</p>

[Banditman]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Jjay@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><p>I'm going to call bull on any conj hitting for less than 500 with their attacks, Maybe hitting at that ammount, but not less. On top of this, You are using "Spells" in your title, I'm going after your achetype, On other threads I have recognized that summoners need a slightly higher boost than 15%, along with enchanters, but Sorcs, Like  yourself, Do not</p></blockquote><p>Really?  You're going to call bull?  Awesome.  I have logs of my Conjuror having his AE's hitting for 225 points of damage.  His DoT's ticking for 72 points.</p><p>Increase that by 15% and you get . . . 260 and 85?  Awesome!  I'm fixed!</p><p>The nerf may or may not have been over the top for Sorcerers, but for Summoners, Enchanters and perhaps Bards, it was most definitely a harsh, harsh nerf.</p>

[EasternKing]

<p><cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sword / Hammer / Mace / Morningstar / Dagger / any other sort of melee orientated weapon tends to be fatal when applied to the head, torso, or you know losing a limb that kinda stuff, please tell me again why they should not be deadly to people wearing cloth? i am dying to hear it.</p></blockquote><p>Wot?</p><p>Conjured demonic fires, bolts of lightening and opening a rift in the fabric of reality at someone's feet would be pretty fatal too, y'know?</p><p>You didn't seriously try to advance your point of view by including "realism" in the analysis of a game with magic, did you?</p><p>Cos, y'know, in terms of realism, armour should increase dmg done by heat and electicity based attacks.  It should also have no effect against crushing blows either as blunt force trauma is not mitigated by plate armour.  Oh, and everyone should fall over and start bleeding most distressingly after a single injury.</p></blockquote><p>no there is no miserable attempt to inject realism, the point is to point out that spells are supposed to kill people, so are the weapons that melee class's use.</p><p>Saying one should be better because of some twisted idea that hitting a key is harder than turning on auto attack and meleeing, is stupid, hence the hey spells are supposed to be deadly no? well so is getting 3 feet of steel shoved through your head.</p><p>Scouts are fine, they are counters to Mages, just like Mages are counters to Fighters and Healers. BG's are supposed to be a team orientated game, thats why they start at 6 man size and go upto 24 man size games, you work with your other archtypes to win objectives and kill people, it amazes me i am actually having to type this out for people.</p>

[Aleste]

<p><cite>Shankapotomus@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I love it!</p><p>So funny to see all of these mages with their first experience to PvP being total domination whine about how they are now taken out by a melee class because their single spell hot bar failed to put out enough damage.</p><p>Heres the thing, mages are now behind the learning curve of all the other classes. They came into BGs with no need for debuffs, roots, ports, stuns, good AA set up, or use for gear. All they had to do was click their damage buttons and poof, game over. Now you have to play like the rest of us, keep your buffs up, debuff or any other hindering to your opponent, and pull out the damage at the right time.</p><p>You guys need to realize you MUST be very high geared to stand up against a melee class now that you can't 1 shot them before they get close. <strong><em>Your mit is low, so if you let that scout swarm all over you as you try and sit there and cast your couple second spells, what do you expect to happen?</em></strong></p><p>Quit complaing about how the patch hit you a little too hard and take the time to figure out those other buttons in your spell book that use more words than numbers. I'm a fury, so... a spellcaster of sorts... But I'm not crying because I have to keep my head a little deeper in my shell now.</p></blockquote><p>^^^ Great comment.</p>

[Blaidd]

<p><cite>Sydares wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Wow, you're right. Autoattack is so brutal that it's parryable, blockable, dodgeable, deflectable, mitigatable, and --- wait, what? Look - against anything but cloth, autoattack is fine. You're wearing a dress - get over it.</p></blockquote><p>ROFL</p><p>How many casters do you know that dodge, parry etc attacks often. Mitigatable is a joke in cloth and you have resists to mit spell damage which are much easier to raise (hell you get Brellium jewelry sets that raise resists an insane amount).</p><p>I have a spell than in PVE crits for around 22k self buffed. In PVP with good gear and group buffs it crits for 2k. As stated earlier inqs autoattack for 500 so actual dps classes will be autoattacking for more than my top single target nuke and your saying you see this as balanced?</p><p>Resist rates now are insane, Roots resisted 90% of the time so casters main line of defence is useless, Assassins hitting for 8k off numerous CA's which all have a casting time under .5 secs, Rangers get AOE CA's that deal the same or more damage than warlock nukes (Storm of arrows (lvl 80 master hits for 5041-8336) and Stream of Arrows(lvl 74 master hitting for 4868-5928 to non rangers reading the master on broker)) yet arnt effected by resists and have longer ranges.</p><p>People seriously need to play casters before calling nerf as there are deadlier classes out there by far and thats before the nerf</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p>Is a sorc really saying it has no MIT?!I</p>

[Oakum]

<p>So let be fair then.</p><p>Make nukers wands/staffs autoattack for the same about as a bow/throwing weapon ranged and a melee weapon up close that does not require them to be standing still to work just like scouts with the same delays. Then all is fair and their is no call to nerf melee/throwing weapon/bow damage.</p><p>Edit: Of course they would have to be made PVP only so as not to unbalance PVE.</p>

[EasternKing]

<p><cite>Oakum wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So let be fair then.</p><p>Make nukers wands/staffs autoattack for the same about as a bow/throwing weapon ranged and a melee weapon up close that does not require them to be standing still to work just like scouts with the same delays. Then all is fair and their is no call to nerf melee/throwing weapon/bow damage.</p></blockquote><p>they pretty much do already, the only reason melee hit for more is we have Damage per second soft capped or hard capped, where as mages do not bother with DPS.</p><p>yes certain scouts get a higher base auto attack, but all in all the differnce is minimal between the tables.</p>

[Taldier]

<p><cite>Jjay@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>should scout autoattacks hit for more damage than mage spells?   discuss</p></blockquote><p>Raid geared scout autoattacks do not hit me for more damage than mage spells.  They hit plate tanks for a even less, and pvp speced sorcs for a similarly low amount of damage.</p><p>Discuss</p><p>Crit autoattacks hit any class with melee damage reduction for 0-100 damage</p><p>Discuss</p><p>Chain/plate healers are easier to kill than pvp speced sorcs for non-predator melee classes</p><p>Discuss</p><p>Random generalizations without context are meaningless</p><p>Discuss</p>

[Dojac]

<p><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Jjay@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Trawe wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>i think most people should accept the fact that they are not the best of their class and try workingon themselfes instead of crying for nerfs left and right. of course the not so good mages (and please notice i dontmean this as an insult) mostly from pve server tried eq2 pvp for their first time and were able to melt faces w/o debuffingor cc or anything besides dmg. of course they started thinking "wow i so rock" obviously ignoring arguments from the moreveteran-to-pvp player. truth hurts i can understand that. but the changes that where done are good for players that know what to do. and imho it is sad that no one dares to think about advancing or getting a better tactic.</p></blockquote><p>I agree 100% but you didn't answer the question.  Should melee autoattack do more damage than ANY mage spell?  After all, relying on autoattack for damage takes no skill.</p></blockquote><p>yes because hitting 1-2-3 requires skill right?</p><p>Lets not bring skill into this, there is ZERO skill in hitting buttons sequentially in EQ2.</p><p>Scouts are designed to melee mobs they get big swords and things, you saying that getting hit with a huge magical sword in the face is less deadly than a spell now? as that is what i am reading from your purile posts.</p><p>DEAD is dead, Damage is Damage regardless of the source of that damage.</p><p>You mages make me laugh, there is some skill in sitting 30mtrs from a mob, not even facing it and hitting your pre worked out spell rotation off ? seriously that is so fail it blows my mind.</p><p>I dont know a single mage, not a one and i have raided on most US/EU servers since T5 that can play a melee scout well, and i am talking top end mages here, scouts require so much more effort and work to get the same kind of results mages do.</p><p>I will  bet you hands down, i can out play you on your sorc, and you can try my Brigand on for size, then you can get back to me on which class is easier to dps with, and which class has less "skill" required to get your dps numbers.</p></blockquote><p>Play an illy.</p>

[Sydares]

<p><cite>Ysbryd@Runnyeye wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Sydares wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Wow, you're right. Autoattack is so brutal that it's parryable, blockable, dodgeable, deflectable, mitigatable, and --- wait, what? Look - against anything but cloth, autoattack is fine. You're wearing a dress - get over it.</p></blockquote><p>ROFL</p><p>How many casters do you know that dodge, parry etc attacks often. Mitigatable is a joke in cloth and</p></blockquote><p>You can pretty much stop right there. You've got defensive AAs that you can spec into to help out with this, and there are plenty of competent players that do just that. But essentially what you're proposing here is that you want a reduction to physical damage, which is already horribly pathetic to anyone wearing anything <strong>better than a dress.</strong></p><p>You're in cloth? Wow, guess what? You rolled a glass cannon. Frankly, a good Warlock or Wizard survives far better than it should be able to given those circumstances.</p><p>You should be QQing about your damage output, not that swords hurt your dress.</p>

[Zabom]

<p><cite>Jjay@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Jjay@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Trawe wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>i think most people should accept the fact that they are not the best of their class and try workingon themselfes instead of crying for nerfs left and right. of course the not so good mages (and please notice i dontmean this as an insult) mostly from pve server tried eq2 pvp for their first time and were able to melt faces w/o debuffingor cc or anything besides dmg. of course they started thinking "wow i so rock" obviously ignoring arguments from the moreveteran-to-pvp player. truth hurts i can understand that. but the changes that where done are good for players that know what to do. and imho it is sad that no one dares to think about advancing or getting a better tactic.</p></blockquote><p>I agree 100% but you didn't answer the question.  Should melee autoattack do more damage than ANY mage spell?  After all, relying on autoattack for damage takes no skill.</p></blockquote><p>yes because hitting 1-2-3 requires skill right?</p><p>Lets not bring skill into this, there is ZERO skill in hitting buttons sequentially in EQ2.</p><p>Scouts are designed to melee mobs they get big swords and things, you saying that getting hit with a huge magical sword in the face is less deadly than a spell now? as that is what i am reading from your purile posts.</p><p>DEAD is dead, Damage is Damage regardless of the source of that damage.</p><p>You mages make me laugh, there is some skill in sitting 30mtrs from a mob, not even facing it and hitting your pre worked out spell rotation off ? seriously that is so fail it blows my mind.</p><p>I dont know a single mage, not a one and i have raided on most US/EU servers since T5 that can play a melee scout well, and i am talking top end mages here, scouts require so much more effort and work to get the same kind of results mages do.</p><p>I will  bet you hands down, i can out play you on your sorc, and you can try my Brigand on for size, then you can get back to me on which class is easier to dps with, and which class has less "skill" required to get your dps numbers.</p></blockquote><p>well you just went from one extreme to the other on skill. First you say there is ZERO skill to hitting buttons then you go on the tell my how uber skilled you are.</p><p>However, you failed to answer the question which was about AUTOATTACK. </p><p>Personally I do feel it takes SLIGHTLY more skill to get off a succesful spell attack compared to you turning on AUTOATTACK. </p><p>You cannot convince me that turning on autoattack takes skill.  sorry</p><p>so, should your autoattack do more damage than some (obviously not all) mage spells?  I am not asking about you ca's, just autoattack, get it?</p><p>btw, for reference, what does your aa hit for on average?  I bet its more than most illy/coe/conj/necro spells.  amiright?</p></blockquote><p>You have hit on something here that is the root of the problem. The recent cry of OP aimed at sorcerors has little to do with what they were actually doing, and more to do with the fact that it takes very little skill to play them. I have played every class to at least lvl 50, and I will admit that the easiest class by far to play is my wizard. But there is another side that people don't understand. Once you learn the basics (which can be learned by reading one thread on flames) there is little that can be done skill wise to improve. That means that people who scream l2p are sreaming to people who have nothing left to learn. A sorcerers skill is entirely based on spell order. Knowing how to make their spells hit harder by using debuffs and "spell increasers" is the key. When soloing or pvp we use our stuns slows and roots to keep somone away while nuking. Since those are all spells this still falls under the heading of spell order. Spec is pretty straight forward, and once you have the right gear there is little more that you can do to increase your abilities. If our spells are outright resisted, there is no skill out there that will help us.</p>

[Dojac]

<p><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Jjay@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Trawe wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>i think most people should accept the fact that they are not the best of their class and try workingon themselfes instead of crying for nerfs left and right. of course the not so good mages (and please notice i dontmean this as an insult) mostly from pve server tried eq2 pvp for their first time and were able to melt faces w/o debuffingor cc or anything besides dmg. of course they started thinking "wow i so rock" obviously ignoring arguments from the moreveteran-to-pvp player. truth hurts i can understand that. but the changes that where done are good for players that know what to do. and imho it is sad that no one dares to think about advancing or getting a better tactic.</p></blockquote><p>I agree 100% but you didn't answer the question.  Should melee autoattack do more damage than ANY mage spell?  After all, relying on autoattack for damage takes no skill.</p></blockquote><p>yes because hitting 1-2-3 requires skill right?</p><p>Lets not bring skill into this, there is ZERO skill in hitting buttons sequentially in EQ2.</p><p>Scouts are designed to melee mobs they get big swords and things, you saying that getting hit with a huge magical sword in the face is less deadly than a spell now? as that is what i am reading from your purile posts.</p><p>DEAD is dead, Damage is Damage regardless of the source of that damage.</p><p>You mages make me laugh, there is some skill in sitting 30mtrs from a mob, not even facing it and hitting your pre worked out spell rotation off ? seriously that is so fail it blows my mind.</p><p>I dont know a single mage, not a one and i have raided on most US/EU servers since T5 that can play a melee scout well, and i am talking top end mages here, scouts require so much more effort and work to get the same kind of results mages do.</p><p>I will  bet you hands down, i can out play you on your sorc, and you can try my Brigand on for size, then you can get back to me on which class is easier to dps with, and which class has less "skill" required to get your dps numbers.</p></blockquote><p>And this post highlights the flaws in the mentality that went along with this recent "fix", well at least the "balancing" that occurred before this fix.  ALL MAGES ARE NOT SORCS.  Do not lump my illy in with the stand back and cast mentality because I can't do that.  Guess what, enchanters joust (smart ones at least), throwin up a 15k parse (i forsee 20k easy when my guild is better geared) while jousting and keeping 2 groups in power is no easy task.  I bet you hands down you can't out play my illy or any decent illy for that matter.</p><p>Though we may be mages we are not all sorcerers!  Yet when it socerers everyone has a problem with they simply label them as mages and wham we all get jacked because of it.</p>

[Darkonx]

<p><cite>Dojac@Vox wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Jjay@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Trawe wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>i think most people should accept the fact that they are not the best of their class and try workingon themselfes instead of crying for nerfs left and right. of course the not so good mages (and please notice i dontmean this as an insult) mostly from pve server tried eq2 pvp for their first time and were able to melt faces w/o debuffingor cc or anything besides dmg. of course they started thinking "wow i so rock" obviously ignoring arguments from the moreveteran-to-pvp player. truth hurts i can understand that. but the changes that where done are good for players that know what to do. and imho it is sad that no one dares to think about advancing or getting a better tactic.</p></blockquote><p>I agree 100% but you didn't answer the question.  Should melee autoattack do more damage than ANY mage spell?  After all, relying on autoattack for damage takes no skill.</p></blockquote><p>yes because hitting 1-2-3 requires skill right?</p><p>Lets not bring skill into this, there is ZERO skill in hitting buttons sequentially in EQ2.</p><p>Scouts are designed to melee mobs they get big swords and things, you saying that getting hit with a huge magical sword in the face is less deadly than a spell now? as that is what i am reading from your purile posts.</p><p>DEAD is dead, Damage is Damage regardless of the source of that damage.</p><p>You mages make me laugh, there is some skill in sitting 30mtrs from a mob, not even facing it and hitting your pre worked out spell rotation off ? seriously that is so fail it blows my mind.</p><p>I dont know a single mage, not a one and i have raided on most US/EU servers since T5 that can play a melee scout well, and i am talking top end mages here, scouts require so much more effort and work to get the same kind of results mages do.</p><p>I will  bet you hands down, i can out play you on your sorc, and you can try my Brigand on for size, then you can get back to me on which class is easier to dps with, and which class has less "skill" required to get your dps numbers.</p></blockquote><p>And this post highlights the flaws in the mentality that went along with this recent "fix", well at least the "balancing" that occurred before this fix.  ALL MAGES ARE NOT SORCS.  Do not lump my illy in with the stand back and cast mentality because I can't do that.  Guess what, enchanters joust (smart ones at least), throwin up a 15k parse (i forsee 20k easy when my guild is better geared) while jousting and keeping 2 groups in power is no easy task.  I bet you hands down you can't out play my illy or any decent illy for that matter.</p><p>Though we may be mages we are not all sorcerers!  Yet when it socerers everyone has a problem with they simply label them as mages and wham we all get jacked because of it.</p></blockquote><p>Mages in general require less skill than scouts. They don't require position/range to do the vast majority of their damage, whereas scouts do. It is just easier to hit 12345 from range without worrying about facing the mob, or being flanking vs in the rear, than it is to hit 12345 while DOING those things.</p>

[Darkonx]

<p><cite>Zabom wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Jjay@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Jjay@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Trawe wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>i think most people should accept the fact that they are not the best of their class and try workingon themselfes instead of crying for nerfs left and right. of course the not so good mages (and please notice i dontmean this as an insult) mostly from pve server tried eq2 pvp for their first time and were able to melt faces w/o debuffingor cc or anything besides dmg. of course they started thinking "wow i so rock" obviously ignoring arguments from the moreveteran-to-pvp player. truth hurts i can understand that. but the changes that where done are good for players that know what to do. and imho it is sad that no one dares to think about advancing or getting a better tactic.</p></blockquote><p>I agree 100% but you didn't answer the question.  Should melee autoattack do more damage than ANY mage spell?  After all, relying on autoattack for damage takes no skill.</p></blockquote><p>yes because hitting 1-2-3 requires skill right?</p><p>Lets not bring skill into this, there is ZERO skill in hitting buttons sequentially in EQ2.</p><p>Scouts are designed to melee mobs they get big swords and things, you saying that getting hit with a huge magical sword in the face is less deadly than a spell now? as that is what i am reading from your purile posts.</p><p>DEAD is dead, Damage is Damage regardless of the source of that damage.</p><p>You mages make me laugh, there is some skill in sitting 30mtrs from a mob, not even facing it and hitting your pre worked out spell rotation off ? seriously that is so fail it blows my mind.</p><p>I dont know a single mage, not a one and i have raided on most US/EU servers since T5 that can play a melee scout well, and i am talking top end mages here, scouts require so much more effort and work to get the same kind of results mages do.</p><p>I will  bet you hands down, i can out play you on your sorc, and you can try my Brigand on for size, then you can get back to me on which class is easier to dps with, and which class has less "skill" required to get your dps numbers.</p></blockquote><p>well you just went from one extreme to the other on skill. First you say there is ZERO skill to hitting buttons then you go on the tell my how uber skilled you are.</p><p>However, you failed to answer the question which was about AUTOATTACK. </p><p>Personally I do feel it takes SLIGHTLY more skill to get off a succesful spell attack compared to you turning on AUTOATTACK. </p><p>You cannot convince me that turning on autoattack takes skill.  sorry</p><p>so, should your autoattack do more damage than some (obviously not all) mage spells?  I am not asking about you ca's, just autoattack, get it?</p><p>btw, for reference, what does your aa hit for on average?  I bet its more than most illy/coe/conj/necro spells.  amiright?</p></blockquote><p>You have hit on something here that is the root of the problem. The recent cry of OP aimed at sorcerors has little to do with what they were actually doing, and more to do with the fact that it takes very little skill to play them. I have played every class to at least lvl 50, and I will admit that the easiest class by far to play is my wizard. But there is another side that people don't understand. Once you learn the basics (which can be learned by reading one thread on flames) there is little that can be done skill wise to improve. That means that people who scream l2p are sreaming to people who have nothing left to learn. A sorcerers skill is entirely based on spell order. Knowing how to make their spells hit harder by using debuffs and "spell increasers" is the key. When soloing or pvp we use our stuns slows and roots to keep somone away while nuking. Since those are all spells this still falls under the heading of spell order. Spec is pretty straight forward, and once you have the right gear there is little more that you can do to increase your abilities. If our spells are outright resisted, there is no skill out there that will help us.</p></blockquote><p>There are two specs. One is for max DPS while PVE raiding. Another is for survivability and playability while in a PVP situation. If you have the former, instead of the latter, you are likely going to get destroyed.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Jjay@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><p>I'm going to call bull on any conj hitting for less than 500 with their attacks, Maybe hitting at that ammount, but not less. On top of this, You are using "Spells" in your title, I'm going after your achetype, On other threads I have recognized that summoners need a slightly higher boost than 15%, along with enchanters, but Sorcs, Like  yourself, Do not</p></blockquote><p>Really?  You're going to call bull?  Awesome.  I have logs of my Conjuror having his AE's hitting for 225 points of damage.  His DoT's ticking for 72 points.</p><p>Increase that by 15% and you get . . . 260 and 85?  Awesome!  I'm fixed!</p><p>The nerf may or may not have been over the top for Sorcerers, but for Summoners, Enchanters and perhaps Bards, it was most definitely a harsh, harsh nerf.</p></blockquote><p>You mean your ungeared sub-90 conj doesn't hit for much? I wonder why</p><p><a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/Kithicor/Zealchu/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...thicor/Zealchu/</a></p>

[Rocc]

<p>To the OP...... NO!</p><p>Scouts are WAY overpowered in BG. No class should do more dps than garbage bag wearing, squishy, one shot wonders...... mages!</p>

[Blaidd]

<p><cite>Sydares wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ysbryd@Runnyeye wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Sydares wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Wow, you're right. Autoattack is so brutal that it's parryable, blockable, dodgeable, deflectable, mitigatable, and --- wait, what? Look - against anything but cloth, autoattack is fine. You're wearing a dress - get over it.</p></blockquote><p>ROFL</p><p>How many casters do you know that dodge, parry etc attacks often. Mitigatable is a joke in cloth and</p></blockquote><p>You can pretty much stop right there. You've got defensive AAs that you can spec into to help out with this, and there are plenty of competent players that do just that. But essentially what you're proposing here is that you want a reduction to physical damage, which is already horribly pathetic to anyone wearing anything <strong>better than a dress.</strong></p><p>You're in cloth? Wow, guess what? You rolled a glass cannon. Frankly, a good Warlock or Wizard survives far better than it should be able to given those circumstances.</p><p>You should be QQing about your damage output, not that swords hurt your dress.</p></blockquote><p>Did I say I wanted melee nerfed? I am justifying why we had the dmg potential we had before. Waht I am saying is if its fine for all your non casters to want us "glass cannons" turning into water pistols you should be happy with your own classes dealing just as much poor dps and turn this into a lets see who can get the relic/flag and then wait for the timer to ryn out.</p><p>Yes we were glass cannons and to get any survivability as a sorc I have spent over 30 aa and it still isnt anywhere near enough to survive against melee as before it gave us enough time to nuke our attacker down if lucky. Now on top opf teh stuns, stifles etc we get so many outright resists there is no hope in hell of winning.</p><p>I do find it laughable that a plate wearing healer is complaining about casters mit though. Though I suppose since casters are one of the few classes that are a threat he would want us nerfing.</p><p>The dmg reduction that casters got isnt the biggest issue its the outright resists and the fact our Dispel magic and CC abilities are now useless as they are resisted so often than we might get it to stick a split second before dying.</p>

[Dojac]

<p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Dojac@Vox wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Jjay@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Trawe wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>i think most people should accept the fact that they are not the best of their class and try workingon themselfes instead of crying for nerfs left and right. of course the not so good mages (and please notice i dontmean this as an insult) mostly from pve server tried eq2 pvp for their first time and were able to melt faces w/o debuffingor cc or anything besides dmg. of course they started thinking "wow i so rock" obviously ignoring arguments from the moreveteran-to-pvp player. truth hurts i can understand that. but the changes that where done are good for players that know what to do. and imho it is sad that no one dares to think about advancing or getting a better tactic.</p></blockquote><p>I agree 100% but you didn't answer the question.  Should melee autoattack do more damage than ANY mage spell?  After all, relying on autoattack for damage takes no skill.</p></blockquote><p>yes because hitting 1-2-3 requires skill right?</p><p>Lets not bring skill into this, there is ZERO skill in hitting buttons sequentially in EQ2.</p><p>Scouts are designed to melee mobs they get big swords and things, you saying that getting hit with a huge magical sword in the face is less deadly than a spell now? as that is what i am reading from your purile posts.</p><p>DEAD is dead, Damage is Damage regardless of the source of that damage.</p><p>You mages make me laugh, there is some skill in sitting 30mtrs from a mob, not even facing it and hitting your pre worked out spell rotation off ? seriously that is so fail it blows my mind.</p><p>I dont know a single mage, not a one and i have raided on most US/EU servers since T5 that can play a melee scout well, and i am talking top end mages here, scouts require so much more effort and work to get the same kind of results mages do.</p><p>I will  bet you hands down, i can out play you on your sorc, and you can try my Brigand on for size, then you can get back to me on which class is easier to dps with, and which class has less "skill" required to get your dps numbers.</p></blockquote><p>And this post highlights the flaws in the mentality that went along with this recent "fix", well at least the "balancing" that occurred before this fix.  ALL MAGES ARE NOT SORCS.  Do not lump my illy in with the stand back and cast mentality because I can't do that.  Guess what, enchanters joust (smart ones at least), throwin up a 15k parse (i forsee 20k easy when my guild is better geared) while jousting and keeping 2 groups in power is no easy task.  I bet you hands down you can't out play my illy or any decent illy for that matter.</p><p>Though we may be mages we are not all sorcerers!  Yet when it socerers everyone has a problem with they simply label them as mages and wham we all get jacked because of it.</p></blockquote><p>Mages in general require less skill than scouts. They don't require position/range to do the vast majority of their damage, whereas scouts do. It is just easier to hit 12345 from range without worrying about facing the mob, or being flanking vs in the rear, than it is to hit 12345 while DOING those things.</p></blockquote><p>Thats assuming you're comparing a well played scout to a well played enchanter.  100% of an enchanter's ability to DPS is locked up in keeping our AA ability perpetuality going and to do that we have to cast a spell every 3 seconds and that means we must complete the cast in 3 secs not just start it.  Jousting poses a huge problem as most of our spells don't cast on the move.  </p><p>If you wanna compare a very base skill play in each of the classes then scouts take the cake on enchanters any day.  Sure a poorly played enchanter can just stand back and cast but they are doing nowhere near their DPS potential as a scout that simply threw back attacks (ignored quadrants) is doing nowhere near their DPS potential. </p><p>I would hazard that the proper addition of a joust to a illy with points spent on melee skill can up their DPS by roughly 1k-1.5k whereas the addition of flanking attacks (as opposed to simple back attacks) are not as significant (not saying they aren't significant just saying they don't account for 1k DPS).</p><p>Enchanters have the added responsibility of being a power utility.  Which also, if poorly played, will take a giant bite out of your DPS.  We're talking 3k DPS easy.  I see nothing in a scout's responsibilities (even the scout utilities) that could hinder their DPS by that much if poorly execcuted.</p><p>As for your refence to different specs for PvE PvP...um duh.  Sorry to phrase it like that but thats all I got.  Enchanters are offered very little in the way of survivability in that regard.  The best we can really do is a 10% ability to parry or riposte (depending on the quadrant) Coercers may have more I haven't looked at a coercer tree lately.  Agreed this is huge but its coupled with next to nothing on mitigation that 90% still jacks us up pretty easily.  We do have the standard shadow additions to health but thats nothing specific to our class and as such is balanced out easily on the other side of the equation (actually its tilted in favor of other classes as its based on a %of max health and mages are the class with the lowest health but I don't need to split hairs).  Enchanters easily have the lowest survivability of all the mage classes.</p><p>PvP wise it takes much more skill to play an enchanter than a scout by virtue of being entirely dependant on easily frustrated CC abilities without the DPS backup of other mages.  Simply put we have to play smarter than our opponent or we're dead.</p><p>Once again please don't lump all mages together.</p>

[Taldier]

<p><cite>Ysbryd@Runnyeye wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Sydares wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ysbryd@Runnyeye wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Sydares wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Wow, you're right. Autoattack is so brutal that it's parryable, blockable, dodgeable, deflectable, mitigatable, and --- wait, what? Look - against anything but cloth, autoattack is fine. You're wearing a dress - get over it.</p></blockquote><p>ROFL</p><p>How many casters do you know that dodge, parry etc attacks often. Mitigatable is a joke in cloth and</p></blockquote><p>You can pretty much stop right there. You've got defensive AAs that you can spec into to help out with this, and there are plenty of competent players that do just that. But essentially what you're proposing here is that you want a reduction to physical damage, which is already horribly pathetic to anyone wearing anything <strong>better than a dress.</strong></p><p>You're in cloth? Wow, guess what? You rolled a glass cannon. Frankly, a good Warlock or Wizard survives far better than it should be able to given those circumstances.</p><p>You should be QQing about your damage output, not that swords hurt your dress.</p></blockquote><p>Did I say I wanted melee nerfed? I am justifying why we had the dmg potential we had before. Waht I am saying is if its fine for all your non casters to want us "glass cannons" turning into water pistols you should be happy with your own classes dealing just as much poor dps and turn this into a lets see who can get the relic/flag and then wait for the timer to ryn out.</p></blockquote><p>Sorcs are a "glass cannon" in the same way that a guardian or paladin is a "glass tank".</p><p>If they change back the "bugs" (hopefully?) related to sorc and fighter defense that came with sf then you could use some extra dps.</p><p>Assassins doing high dps to summoners and enchanters is not a justification for sorcs doing even more dps to a plate tank.</p><p>Scouts do substantially less damage to me than mages even after the resist fix, and Im not even wearing plate.</p>

[Darkonx]

<p>Enchanters jousting correctly I agree is semi-difficult. However, ALL spells on this game can be cast while moving 'some'. What you can do as a chanter is actually move in very very slowly, about a step every single spell, and you can essentially 'cast while moving'. Pretty neat trick. I agree though, playing an enchanter by doing that requires more skill than simply backstabbing on a scout.</p><p>Summoners/Sorcerers do not joust though. So let's not lump mages together either way. I agree, Enchanters could probably use a boost above and beyond the 15% incoming to all mages. I'd say 25-30%. Especially Illys. Coercers can do 'ok' as it is with their huge damage reactives, but Illys could use some love.</p>

[Trawe]

<p><cite>Zabom wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Jjay@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Jjay@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Trawe wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>i think most people should accept the fact that they are not the best of their class and try workingon themselfes instead of crying for nerfs left and right. of course the not so good mages (and please notice i dontmean this as an insult) mostly from pve server tried eq2 pvp for their first time and were able to melt faces w/o debuffingor cc or anything besides dmg. of course they started thinking "wow i so rock" obviously ignoring arguments from the moreveteran-to-pvp player. truth hurts i can understand that. but the changes that where done are good for players that know what to do. and imho it is sad that no one dares to think about advancing or getting a better tactic.</p></blockquote><p>I agree 100% but you didn't answer the question.  Should melee autoattack do more damage than ANY mage spell?  After all, relying on autoattack for damage takes no skill.</p></blockquote><p>yes because hitting 1-2-3 requires skill right?</p><p>Lets not bring skill into this, there is ZERO skill in hitting buttons sequentially in EQ2.</p><p>Scouts are designed to melee mobs they get big swords and things, you saying that getting hit with a huge magical sword in the face is less deadly than a spell now? as that is what i am reading from your purile posts.</p><p>DEAD is dead, Damage is Damage regardless of the source of that damage.</p><p>You mages make me laugh, there is some skill in sitting 30mtrs from a mob, not even facing it and hitting your pre worked out spell rotation off ? seriously that is so fail it blows my mind.</p><p>I dont know a single mage, not a one and i have raided on most US/EU servers since T5 that can play a melee scout well, and i am talking top end mages here, scouts require so much more effort and work to get the same kind of results mages do.</p><p>I will  bet you hands down, i can out play you on your sorc, and you can try my Brigand on for size, then you can get back to me on which class is easier to dps with, and which class has less "skill" required to get your dps numbers.</p></blockquote><p>well you just went from one extreme to the other on skill. First you say there is ZERO skill to hitting buttons then you go on the tell my how uber skilled you are.</p><p>However, you failed to answer the question which was about AUTOATTACK. </p><p>Personally I do feel it takes SLIGHTLY more skill to get off a succesful spell attack compared to you turning on AUTOATTACK. </p><p>You cannot convince me that turning on autoattack takes skill.  sorry</p><p>so, should your autoattack do more damage than some (obviously not all) mage spells?  I am not asking about you ca's, just autoattack, get it?</p><p>btw, for reference, what does your aa hit for on average?  I bet its more than most illy/coe/conj/necro spells.  amiright?</p></blockquote><p>You have hit on something here that is the root of the problem. The recent cry of OP aimed at sorcerors has little to do with what they were actually doing, and more to do with the fact that it takes very little skill to play them. I have played every class to at least lvl 50, and I will admit that the easiest class by far to play is my wizard. But there is another side that people don't understand. <strong>Once you learn the basics (which can be learned by reading one thread on flames) there is little that can be done skill wise to improve</strong>. That means that people who scream l2p are sreaming to people who have nothing left to learn. A sorcerers skill is entirely based on spell order. Knowing how to make their spells hit harder by using debuffs and "spell increasers" is the key. When soloing or pvp we use our stuns slows and roots to keep somone away while nuking. Since those are all spells this still falls under the heading of spell order. Spec is pretty straight forward, and once you have the right gear there is little more that you can do to increase your abilities. If our spells are outright resisted, there is no skill out there that will help us.</p></blockquote><p>bolded the part where i disagree. in pvp there is much more to be considered than spell rotation.also there is a way to improve your hitrate for spells. melee classes aswell. it´s not like you roll a fighter/ scoutand it magically hits you for 3k each swing. hey btw - melees cant slow you unless they... cast a spell <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />so that´s the same for both archtypes. please consider that it takes alot of work/ gearing up in order to geta decent melee swing. i cannot answer the OPs question because it is situational and depends on what class is fightingand what setup they are up against etc etc.btw there is no pvp spec usually in class forums of flames and bg is not pve.</p>

[Darkonx]

<p>The wizard in my guild was getting 13k non DA IC's yesterday. That means that it would be a 26k DA IC. Still plenty high to one shot people!</p>

[Stuckx]

<p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The wizard in my guild was getting 13k non DA IC's yesterday. That means that it would be a 26k DA IC. Still plenty high to one shot people!</p></blockquote><p>Thats awesome for him(if it's true,considering everyone else's IC is hitting for 1-6k) but what about all the other mage's who don't have an OP defensive AA spec,and hit for less than 1k on 80% of their spells?</p>

[Killque]

<p><cite>Jjay@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>should scout autoattacks hit for more damage than mage spells?   discuss</p></blockquote><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=476710" target="_blank">Does this answer your question?</a></p>

[Killque]

<p><cite>Rocc@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>To the OP...... NO!</p><p>Scouts are WAY overpowered in BG. No class should do more dps than garbage bag wearing, <span style="font-size: medium;">squishy</span>, one shot wonders...... mages!</p></blockquote><p>HAHAHAHAH....</p><p>This is where I stopped reading.</p>

[Stuckx]

<p><cite>Killque wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rocc@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>To the OP...... NO!</p><p>Scouts are WAY overpowered in BG. No class should do more dps than garbage bag wearing, <span style="font-size: medium;">squishy</span>, one shot wonders...... mages!</p></blockquote><p>HAHAHAHAH....</p><p>This is where I stopped reading.</p></blockquote><p>Stop lumping the other 4 casters in with sorcerors tbh.</p>

[Tehom]

<p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The wizard in my guild was getting 13k non DA IC's yesterday. That means that it would be a 26k DA IC. Still plenty high to one shot people!</p></blockquote><p>I find it very hard to believe he was hitting anyone with decent resists or toughness. I'm yet to have ice comet or fusion break 2k on me. Generally the only way I can tell a caster is nuking me at all is through icons, since they never get through wards.</p>

[Cigam]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Holy crap, stop with the QQ till you get the re-fix, at least you will get yours within 3 months,then if it's still bad keep crying</p></blockquote><p>Shall we go back and read the posts prior to the "fix" and see how much crying was going on AFTER the devs said it was getting fixed?  </p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Cigam@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Holy crap, stop with the QQ till you get the re-fix, at least you will get yours within 3 months,then if it's still bad keep crying</p></blockquote><p>Shall we go back and read the posts prior to the "fix" and see how much crying was going on AFTER the devs said it was getting fixed?  </p></blockquote><p>Too much, I only discussed with those whom said the resists were just fine.</p>

[Dorsan]

<p><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>...the only reason melee hit for more is we have Damage per second soft capped or hard capped, where as mages do not bother with DPS.</p></blockquote><p>Are you trying to flame?</p><p>Btw... I was thinking about the whole balance issue and I figure there is no way you can balance mages. They will be either too weak or too strong. There is a basic difference between scouts and mages and that is in mitigation. Scouts are doing different ammount of damage towards different classes while mage dps is same regardless of the enemy, because everyone has 70-80% mitigation vs nox/ele/arc. So if you try and balance the mage dps by looking at the numbers they can put out vs tanks, you are going to make their dps insanely low (and you get mages crying). If you try to balance the mage dps by looking at the numbers they can put out vs more squishi classes then they are going to kill tanks too fast (and you get tanks and healers crying). Also... We have mage and scout base dps at around same ammounts, but while 70% mitigation vs mage damage is easy to achieve, most classes will never have 70% mitigation vs melee.</p><p>Again, I like to play the underdog class, I took necro on a pvp server for that purpose. Just throwing out my 2cp.</p>

[Zabom]

<p><cite>Trawe wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Zabom wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Jjay@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Jjay@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Trawe wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>i think most people should accept the fact that they are not the best of their class and try workingon themselfes instead of crying for nerfs left and right. of course the not so good mages (and please notice i dontmean this as an insult) mostly from pve server tried eq2 pvp for their first time and were able to melt faces w/o debuffingor cc or anything besides dmg. of course they started thinking "wow i so rock" obviously ignoring arguments from the moreveteran-to-pvp player. truth hurts i can understand that. but the changes that where done are good for players that know what to do. and imho it is sad that no one dares to think about advancing or getting a better tactic.</p></blockquote><p>I agree 100% but you didn't answer the question.  Should melee autoattack do more damage than ANY mage spell?  After all, relying on autoattack for damage takes no skill.</p></blockquote><p>yes because hitting 1-2-3 requires skill right?</p><p>Lets not bring skill into this, there is ZERO skill in hitting buttons sequentially in EQ2.</p><p>Scouts are designed to melee mobs they get big swords and things, you saying that getting hit with a huge magical sword in the face is less deadly than a spell now? as that is what i am reading from your purile posts.</p><p>DEAD is dead, Damage is Damage regardless of the source of that damage.</p><p>You mages make me laugh, there is some skill in sitting 30mtrs from a mob, not even facing it and hitting your pre worked out spell rotation off ? seriously that is so fail it blows my mind.</p><p>I dont know a single mage, not a one and i have raided on most US/EU servers since T5 that can play a melee scout well, and i am talking top end mages here, scouts require so much more effort and work to get the same kind of results mages do.</p><p>I will  bet you hands down, i can out play you on your sorc, and you can try my Brigand on for size, then you can get back to me on which class is easier to dps with, and which class has less "skill" required to get your dps numbers.</p></blockquote><p>well you just went from one extreme to the other on skill. First you say there is ZERO skill to hitting buttons then you go on the tell my how uber skilled you are.</p><p>However, you failed to answer the question which was about AUTOATTACK. </p><p>Personally I do feel it takes SLIGHTLY more skill to get off a succesful spell attack compared to you turning on AUTOATTACK. </p><p>You cannot convince me that turning on autoattack takes skill.  sorry</p><p>so, should your autoattack do more damage than some (obviously not all) mage spells?  I am not asking about you ca's, just autoattack, get it?</p><p>btw, for reference, what does your aa hit for on average?  I bet its more than most illy/coe/conj/necro spells.  amiright?</p></blockquote><p>You have hit on something here that is the root of the problem. The recent cry of OP aimed at sorcerors has little to do with what they were actually doing, and more to do with the fact that it takes very little skill to play them. I have played every class to at least lvl 50, and I will admit that the easiest class by far to play is my wizard. But there is another side that people don't understand. <strong>Once you learn the basics (which can be learned by reading one thread on flames) there is little that can be done skill wise to improve</strong>. That means that people who scream l2p are sreaming to people who have nothing left to learn. A sorcerers skill is entirely based on spell order. Knowing how to make their spells hit harder by using debuffs and "spell increasers" is the key. When soloing or pvp we use our stuns slows and roots to keep somone away while nuking. Since those are all spells this still falls under the heading of spell order. Spec is pretty straight forward, and once you have the right gear there is little more that you can do to increase your abilities. If our spells are outright resisted, there is no skill out there that will help us.</p></blockquote><p>bolded the part where i disagree. in pvp there is much more to be considered than spell rotation.also there is a way to improve your hitrate for spells. melee classes aswell. it´s not like you roll a fighter/ scoutand it magically hits you for 3k each swing. hey btw - melees cant slow you unless they... cast a spell <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />so that´s the same for both archtypes. please consider that it takes alot of work/ gearing up in order to geta decent melee swing. i cannot answer the OPs question because it is situational and depends on what class is fightingand what setup they are up against etc etc.btw there is no pvp spec usually in class forums of flames and bg is not pve.</p></blockquote><p>I'de really love to find out what more you think there is to playing a wizard. Beyond the right spec, gear, and mastered spells, when you cast what spell is all there is left.</p>

[Megavolt]

<p>Stay close enough to the tanks so you can get these melee taunted off of you. Stay close enough to the healers so you're not out of their range, and for god sakes QyfQ</p>

[EasternKing]

<p><cite>Dorsan@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>...the only reason melee hit for more is we have Damage per second soft capped or hard capped, where as mages do not bother with DPS.</p></blockquote><p><strong>Are you trying to flame</strong>?</p><p>Btw... I was thinking about the whole balance issue and I figure there is no way you can balance mages. They will be either too weak or too strong. There is a basic difference between scouts and mages and that is in mitigation. Scouts are doing different ammount of damage towards different classes while mage dps is same regardless of the enemy, because everyone has 70-80% mitigation vs nox/ele/arc. So if you try and balance the mage dps by looking at the numbers they can put out vs tanks, you are going to make their dps insanely low (and you get mages crying). If you try to balance the mage dps by looking at the numbers they can put out vs more squishi classes then they are going to kill tanks too fast (and you get tanks and healers crying). Also... We have mage and scout base dps at around same ammounts, but while 70% mitigation vs mage damage is easy to achieve, most classes will never have 70% mitigation vs melee.</p><p>Again, I like to play the underdog class, I took necro on a pvp server for that purpose. Just throwing out my 2cp.</p></blockquote><p>DPS = DAMAGE PER SECOND, the stat that melee class's try and get as much of as possible, that to my knowledge most casters do not even know what it does, never mind look for gear with it on.</p><p>NOT mages do not bother TO dps.</p>

[Dorsan]

Yeah, but the topic was not why do scouts autoattacks do more damage compared to mages autoattacks. That's pretty obvious to all. The topic is why do scouts autoattacks do more damage compared to mages spells. And for that the DPS stat maxing is completely irrelevant.

[Zabom]

<p><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Dorsan@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>...the only reason melee hit for more is we have Damage per second soft capped or hard capped, where as mages do not bother with DPS.</p></blockquote><p><strong>Are you trying to flame</strong>?</p><p>Btw... I was thinking about the whole balance issue and I figure there is no way you can balance mages. They will be either too weak or too strong. There is a basic difference between scouts and mages and that is in mitigation. Scouts are doing different ammount of damage towards different classes while mage dps is same regardless of the enemy, because everyone has 70-80% mitigation vs nox/ele/arc. So if you try and balance the mage dps by looking at the numbers they can put out vs tanks, you are going to make their dps insanely low (and you get mages crying). If you try to balance the mage dps by looking at the numbers they can put out vs more squishi classes then they are going to kill tanks too fast (and you get tanks and healers crying). Also... We have mage and scout base dps at around same ammounts, but while 70% mitigation vs mage damage is easy to achieve, most classes will never have 70% mitigation vs melee.</p><p>Again, I like to play the underdog class, I took necro on a pvp server for that purpose. Just throwing out my 2cp.</p></blockquote><p>DPS = DAMAGE PER SECOND, the stat that melee class's try and get as much of as possible, that to my knowledge most casters do not even know what it does, never mind look for gear with it on.</p><p>NOT mages do not bother TO dps.</p></blockquote><p>huh?</p>

[Cigam]

<p>Think I am as confused as the guy above me</p>

[EasternKing]

<p><cite>Dorsan@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Yeah, but the topic was not why do scouts autoattacks do more damage compared to mages autoattacks. That's pretty obvious to all. The topic is why do scouts autoattacks do more damage compared to mages spells. And for that the DPS stat maxing is completely irrelevant.</blockquote><p><cite>Oakum wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So let be fair then.</p><p>Make nukers wands/staffs autoattack for the same about as a bow/throwing weapon ranged and a melee weapon up close that does not require them to be standing still to work just like scouts with the same delays. Then all is fair and their is no call to nerf melee/throwing weapon/bow damage.</p></blockquote><p>They pretty much do already, the only reason melee hit for more is we have Damage per second soft capped or hard capped, where as mages do not bother with DPS.</p><p>yes certain scouts get a higher base auto attack, but all in all the differnce is minimal between the tables.</p><p>the full convo for the confused people that cannot read the thread.</p>

[Zabom]

<p><cite>Brickfist wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Stay close enough to the tanks so you can get these melee taunted off of you. Stay close enough to the healers so you're not out of their range, and for god sakes QyfQ</p></blockquote><p>Spoken like someone who only does premade groups. If I were in a well ballanced premade I would agree with you completely. However, some of us only have 20 minutes at a time to play, so we do the only thing we can. We use the matchmaker and form a pick up group. 90% of the time that means no tank, no healer, or both. Of course their are holes in your theory even if you do. If you are in range of the tank and healer, you are also in range of the target locks and AOE's. If you would ever play a sorcerer you would know that that is the quickest way to die. Pick up healers have a tendency to lock onto the tank and not worry about any aoes that are hitting the rest of the group. Pick up tanks when they do taunt save thier rescues for the healers. I am not saying that that is a bad thing, they depend on each other to survive, and in their place I would probably make the same choices. What I am saying, is that even when we play as a group we are usually considered the expenable portion of that group so , to an extent we are on our own. We dont have 20K+ hp we don't have plate armor. Our manashield only allows for escape as it is gone quickly and leaves us with no mana to perform even the smallest spell. Our mitigation (sorcerers) can be high with the right spec, but our avoidence is still next to nothing. We are very easily interupted as even our fastest casting spells are almost twice the casting time of the longest casting combat arts. Without a dedicated healer on us, we are taken out as quickly as we are identified as a threat. In a perfect scenario, the real skill of a pvp mage would be in trying to stay out of taunt/aoe range of the opposing team while staying within heal/taunt range of your own. That, more often then not, is completely impossible especially now that the fights have become 1 long zerg fest. </p><p>So I would say this to all the people who go into BGs with a premade group day after day and slaughter the "unorganized poorly speced, laughabely geared" pugs. Try it. Queue yourself up for a few matches by yourself. See how frustrating it is to be the only player on your team that even bothered to change to a pvp spec or is attepting to keep the group together. See how mad it makes you when after 2 minutes the rest of your team decides to give up and wait out the timer. You could quit too, but out of a sense of pride and not wanting to be seen as a quitter, you throw yourself against an entire group again and again. See how humiliating it is to be the only one of your group left, who in the face of the impossible, is even trying to get a kill for your side only to have your corpse humped by the other side who is winning not by skill, but by default. Sure, I could get a group together for BGs, but if I am going to go to the trouble of putting together a well balanced group, why would I want to waste my time doing BGs when we could do an instance for a chance at a master chest or something I can use in pve. I play a pve game. My priorities are different from the pvp players. Thinking that pvp players and pve players could ever be on equal footing when pvp players play BGs to get the gear they need for regular pvp and pve players only play BGs to kill time and have fun was SoEs folly. That I am afraid is the biggest mistake SoE made in the whole BG fiasco. Pvp and pve players have a diferent mentality. The pvp players want to use it to get back what they lost in open world pvp. Pve players just want to play the game and get some AA.</p><p>BGs were designed to be a sport more then a pvp arena. unfortunately I have seen absolutely no sign of sportsmanship.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Zabom wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Brickfist wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Stay close enough to the tanks so you can get these melee taunted off of you. Stay close enough to the healers so you're not out of their range, and for god sakes QyfQ</p></blockquote><p>Spoken like someone who only does premade groups. If I were in a well ballanced premade I would agree with you completely. However, some of us only have 20 minutes at a time to play, so we do the only thing we can. We use the matchmaker and form a pick up group. 90% of the time that means no tank, no healer, or both. Of course their are holes in your theory even if you do. If you are in range of the tank and healer, you are also in range of the target locks and AOE's. If you would ever play a sorcerer you would know that that is the quickest way to die. Pick up healers have a tendency to lock onto the tank and not worry about any aoes that are hitting the rest of the group. Pick up tanks when they do taunt save thier rescues for the healers. I am not saying that that is a bad thing, they depend on each other to survive, and in their place I would probably make the same choices. What I am saying, is that even when we play as a group we are usually considered the expenable portion of that group so , to an extent we are on our own. We dont have 20K+ hp we don't have plate armor. Our manashield only allows for escape as it is gone quickly and leaves us with no mana to perform even the smallest spell. Our mitigation (sorcerers) can be high with the right spec, but our avoidence is still next to nothing. We are very easily interupted as even our fastest casting spells are almost twice the casting time of the longest casting combat arts. Without a dedicated healer on us, we are taken out as quickly as we are identified as a threat. In a perfect scenario, the real skill of a pvp mage would be in trying to stay out of taunt/aoe range of the opposing team while staying within heal/taunt range of your own. That, more often then not, is completely impossible especially now that the fights have become 1 long zerg fest. </p><p>So I would say this to all the people who go into BGs with a premade group day after day and slaughter the "unorganized poorly speced, laughabely geared" pugs. Try it. Queue yourself up for a few matches by yourself. See how frustrating it is to be the only player on your team that even bothered to change to a pvp spec or is attepting to keep the group together. See how mad it makes you when after 2 minutes the rest of your team decides to give up and wait out the timer. You could quit too, but out of a sense of pride and not wanting to be seen as a quitter, you throw yourself against an entire group again and again. See how humiliating it is to be the only one of your group left, who in the face of the impossible, is even trying to get a kill for your side only to have your corpse humped by the other side who is winning not by skill, but by default. Sure, I could get a group together for BGs, but if I am going to go to the trouble of putting together a well balanced group, why would I want to waste my time doing BGs when we could do an instance for a chance at a master chest or something I can use in pve. I play a pve game. My priorities are different from the pvp players. Thinking that pvp players and pve players could ever be on equal footing when pvp players play BGs to get the gear they need for regular pvp and pve players only play BGs to kill time and have fun was SoEs folly. That I am afraid is the biggest mistake SoE made in the whole BG fiasco. Pvp and pve players have a diferent mentality. The pvp players want to use it to get back what they lost in open world pvp. Pve players just want to play the game and get some AA.</p><p>BGs were designed to be a sport more then a pvp arena. unfortunately I have seen absolutely no sign of sportsmanship.</p></blockquote><p>Don't speak for masses, speak for yourself, or else you risk making people mad with blanket statements.</p><p>I, as a PvP player, don't appreciate the sense of entitlement that PvE pleyers feel there should have going into a PvP based thing such as BGs. The PvE'ers came in trying to destroy any semblence of PvP balance because they didn't want to put in the time to learn to adapt to a totally new ruleset. If half the people spent half as much time adapting as they did complaining about stupid things that aren't even wrong, then they would be much better than they are. This is my opinion on this.</p>

[Zabom]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Zabom wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Brickfist wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Stay close enough to the tanks so you can get these melee taunted off of you. Stay close enough to the healers so you're not out of their range, and for god sakes QyfQ</p></blockquote><p>Spoken like someone who only does premade groups. If I were in a well ballanced premade I would agree with you completely. However, some of us only have 20 minutes at a time to play, so we do the only thing we can. We use the matchmaker and form a pick up group. 90% of the time that means no tank, no healer, or both. Of course their are holes in your theory even if you do. If you are in range of the tank and healer, you are also in range of the target locks and AOE's. If you would ever play a sorcerer you would know that that is the quickest way to die. Pick up healers have a tendency to lock onto the tank and not worry about any aoes that are hitting the rest of the group. Pick up tanks when they do taunt save thier rescues for the healers. I am not saying that that is a bad thing, they depend on each other to survive, and in their place I would probably make the same choices. What I am saying, is that even when we play as a group we are usually considered the expenable portion of that group so , to an extent we are on our own. We dont have 20K+ hp we don't have plate armor. Our manashield only allows for escape as it is gone quickly and leaves us with no mana to perform even the smallest spell. Our mitigation (sorcerers) can be high with the right spec, but our avoidence is still next to nothing. We are very easily interupted as even our fastest casting spells are almost twice the casting time of the longest casting combat arts. Without a dedicated healer on us, we are taken out as quickly as we are identified as a threat. In a perfect scenario, the real skill of a pvp mage would be in trying to stay out of taunt/aoe range of the opposing team while staying within heal/taunt range of your own. That, more often then not, is completely impossible especially now that the fights have become 1 long zerg fest. </p><p>So I would say this to all the people who go into BGs with a premade group day after day and slaughter the "unorganized poorly speced, laughabely geared" pugs. Try it. Queue yourself up for a few matches by yourself. See how frustrating it is to be the only player on your team that even bothered to change to a pvp spec or is attepting to keep the group together. See how mad it makes you when after 2 minutes the rest of your team decides to give up and wait out the timer. You could quit too, but out of a sense of pride and not wanting to be seen as a quitter, you throw yourself against an entire group again and again. See how humiliating it is to be the only one of your group left, who in the face of the impossible, is even trying to get a kill for your side only to have your corpse humped by the other side who is winning not by skill, but by default. Sure, I could get a group together for BGs, but if I am going to go to the trouble of putting together a well balanced group, why would I want to waste my time doing BGs when we could do an instance for a chance at a master chest or something I can use in pve. I play a pve game. My priorities are different from the pvp players. Thinking that pvp players and pve players could ever be on equal footing when pvp players play BGs to get the gear they need for regular pvp and pve players only play BGs to kill time and have fun was SoEs folly. That I am afraid is the biggest mistake SoE made in the whole BG fiasco. Pvp and pve players have a diferent mentality. The pvp players want to use it to get back what they lost in open world pvp. Pve players just want to play the game and get some AA.</p><p>BGs were designed to be a sport more then a pvp arena. unfortunately I have seen absolutely no sign of sportsmanship.</p></blockquote><p>Don't speak for masses, speak for yourself, or else you risk making people mad with blanket statements.</p><p>I, as a PvP player, don't appreciate the sense of entitlement that PvE pleyers feel there should have going into a PvP based thing such as BGs. The PvE'ers came in trying to destroy any semblence of PvP balance because they didn't want to put in the time to learn to adapt to a totally new ruleset. If half the people spent half as much time adapting as they did complaining about stupid things that aren't even wrong, then they would be much better than they are. This is my opinion on this.</p></blockquote><p>I'm quite sure you don't appreciate it. I as a pve player don't appreciate the elitest attitude held by most pvp players. So maybe we agree on one thing. pvp and pve servers should be segregated in bgs. It is a diferent game played for diferent reasons for both of us.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Zabom wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Zabom wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Brickfist wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Stay close enough to the tanks so you can get these melee taunted off of you. Stay close enough to the healers so you're not out of their range, and for god sakes QyfQ</p></blockquote><p>Spoken like someone who only does premade groups. If I were in a well ballanced premade I would agree with you completely. However, some of us only have 20 minutes at a time to play, so we do the only thing we can. We use the matchmaker and form a pick up group. 90% of the time that means no tank, no healer, or both. Of course their are holes in your theory even if you do. If you are in range of the tank and healer, you are also in range of the target locks and AOE's. If you would ever play a sorcerer you would know that that is the quickest way to die. Pick up healers have a tendency to lock onto the tank and not worry about any aoes that are hitting the rest of the group. Pick up tanks when they do taunt save thier rescues for the healers. I am not saying that that is a bad thing, they depend on each other to survive, and in their place I would probably make the same choices. What I am saying, is that even when we play as a group we are usually considered the expenable portion of that group so , to an extent we are on our own. We dont have 20K+ hp we don't have plate armor. Our manashield only allows for escape as it is gone quickly and leaves us with no mana to perform even the smallest spell. Our mitigation (sorcerers) can be high with the right spec, but our avoidence is still next to nothing. We are very easily interupted as even our fastest casting spells are almost twice the casting time of the longest casting combat arts. Without a dedicated healer on us, we are taken out as quickly as we are identified as a threat. In a perfect scenario, the real skill of a pvp mage would be in trying to stay out of taunt/aoe range of the opposing team while staying within heal/taunt range of your own. That, more often then not, is completely impossible especially now that the fights have become 1 long zerg fest. </p><p>So I would say this to all the people who go into BGs with a premade group day after day and slaughter the "unorganized poorly speced, laughabely geared" pugs. Try it. Queue yourself up for a few matches by yourself. See how frustrating it is to be the only player on your team that even bothered to change to a pvp spec or is attepting to keep the group together. See how mad it makes you when after 2 minutes the rest of your team decides to give up and wait out the timer. You could quit too, but out of a sense of pride and not wanting to be seen as a quitter, you throw yourself against an entire group again and again. See how humiliating it is to be the only one of your group left, who in the face of the impossible, is even trying to get a kill for your side only to have your corpse humped by the other side who is winning not by skill, but by default. Sure, I could get a group together for BGs, but if I am going to go to the trouble of putting together a well balanced group, why would I want to waste my time doing BGs when we could do an instance for a chance at a master chest or something I can use in pve. I play a pve game. My priorities are different from the pvp players. Thinking that pvp players and pve players could ever be on equal footing when pvp players play BGs to get the gear they need for regular pvp and pve players only play BGs to kill time and have fun was SoEs folly. That I am afraid is the biggest mistake SoE made in the whole BG fiasco. Pvp and pve players have a diferent mentality. The pvp players want to use it to get back what they lost in open world pvp. Pve players just want to play the game and get some AA.</p><p>BGs were designed to be a sport more then a pvp arena. unfortunately I have seen absolutely no sign of sportsmanship.</p></blockquote><p>Don't speak for masses, speak for yourself, or else you risk making people mad with blanket statements.</p><p>I, as a PvP player, don't appreciate the sense of entitlement that PvE pleyers feel there should have going into a PvP based thing such as BGs. The PvE'ers came in trying to destroy any semblence of PvP balance because they didn't want to put in the time to learn to adapt to a totally new ruleset. If half the people spent half as much time adapting as they did complaining about stupid things that aren't even wrong, then they would be much better than they are. This is my opinion on this.</p></blockquote><p>I'm quite sure you don't appreciate it. I as a pve player don't appreciate the elitest attitude held by most pvp players. So maybe we agree on one thing. pvp and pve servers should be segregated in bgs. It is a diferent game played for diferent reasons for both of us.</p></blockquote><p>Elitist attitudes are not limited to PvP servers, You realize this right? Instead of working to learn the ins and out of the PvP rulesets you would rather take an easy way out and just seperate them? I see...</p>

[Zabom]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Zabom wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Zabom wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Brickfist wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Stay close enough to the tanks so you can get these melee taunted off of you. Stay close enough to the healers so you're not out of their range, and for god sakes QyfQ</p></blockquote><p>Spoken like someone who only does premade groups. If I were in a well ballanced premade I would agree with you completely. However, some of us only have 20 minutes at a time to play, so we do the only thing we can. We use the matchmaker and form a pick up group. 90% of the time that means no tank, no healer, or both. Of course their are holes in your theory even if you do. If you are in range of the tank and healer, you are also in range of the target locks and AOE's. If you would ever play a sorcerer you would know that that is the quickest way to die. Pick up healers have a tendency to lock onto the tank and not worry about any aoes that are hitting the rest of the group. Pick up tanks when they do taunt save thier rescues for the healers. I am not saying that that is a bad thing, they depend on each other to survive, and in their place I would probably make the same choices. What I am saying, is that even when we play as a group we are usually considered the expenable portion of that group so , to an extent we are on our own. We dont have 20K+ hp we don't have plate armor. Our manashield only allows for escape as it is gone quickly and leaves us with no mana to perform even the smallest spell. Our mitigation (sorcerers) can be high with the right spec, but our avoidence is still next to nothing. We are very easily interupted as even our fastest casting spells are almost twice the casting time of the longest casting combat arts. Without a dedicated healer on us, we are taken out as quickly as we are identified as a threat. In a perfect scenario, the real skill of a pvp mage would be in trying to stay out of taunt/aoe range of the opposing team while staying within heal/taunt range of your own. That, more often then not, is completely impossible especially now that the fights have become 1 long zerg fest. </p><p>So I would say this to all the people who go into BGs with a premade group day after day and slaughter the "unorganized poorly speced, laughabely geared" pugs. Try it. Queue yourself up for a few matches by yourself. See how frustrating it is to be the only player on your team that even bothered to change to a pvp spec or is attepting to keep the group together. See how mad it makes you when after 2 minutes the rest of your team decides to give up and wait out the timer. You could quit too, but out of a sense of pride and not wanting to be seen as a quitter, you throw yourself against an entire group again and again. See how humiliating it is to be the only one of your group left, who in the face of the impossible, is even trying to get a kill for your side only to have your corpse humped by the other side who is winning not by skill, but by default. Sure, I could get a group together for BGs, but if I am going to go to the trouble of putting together a well balanced group, why would I want to waste my time doing BGs when we could do an instance for a chance at a master chest or something I can use in pve. I play a pve game. My priorities are different from the pvp players. Thinking that pvp players and pve players could ever be on equal footing when pvp players play BGs to get the gear they need for regular pvp and pve players only play BGs to kill time and have fun was SoEs folly. That I am afraid is the biggest mistake SoE made in the whole BG fiasco. Pvp and pve players have a diferent mentality. The pvp players want to use it to get back what they lost in open world pvp. Pve players just want to play the game and get some AA.</p><p>BGs were designed to be a sport more then a pvp arena. unfortunately I have seen absolutely no sign of sportsmanship.</p></blockquote><p>Don't speak for masses, speak for yourself, or else you risk making people mad with blanket statements.</p><p>I, as a PvP player, don't appreciate the sense of entitlement that PvE pleyers feel there should have going into a PvP based thing such as BGs. The PvE'ers came in trying to destroy any semblence of PvP balance because they didn't want to put in the time to learn to adapt to a totally new ruleset. If half the people spent half as much time adapting as they did complaining about stupid things that aren't even wrong, then they would be much better than they are. This is my opinion on this.</p></blockquote><p>I'm quite sure you don't appreciate it. I as a pve player don't appreciate the elitest attitude held by most pvp players. So maybe we agree on one thing. pvp and pve servers should be segregated in bgs. It is a diferent game played for diferent reasons for both of us.</p></blockquote><p>Elitist attitudes are not limited to PvP servers, You realize this right? Instead of working to learn the ins and out of the PvP rulesets you would rather take an easy way out and just seperate them? I see...</p></blockquote><p>You are certainly good at taking things out of context. I am not trying to start an argument here. I am also more then willing to adjust play style to be a better player. I would not bother being on these forums if that were not true. I merely meant to point out that PVP servers are more likely to get groups together to play BGs while pve servers are more likely to get groups together to run instances. On a pve server it is very dificult to get 6 people together for BGs. Therefore the imbalanced groups caused by the macthmaker affect pve servers more then pvp. We depend on pugs to play at all. For that reason and that reason alone i feel there is an imbalance between the two.</p>

[Wigg]

<p>Just to let the scouts know, my assassin could own a wizzy before the changes... I never saw a problem with spell damage.  Yes a wizard could 1 shot you, but I believe we have a .3 second cast time stun called "Cheap Shot" that gives you PLENTY of time to get up on the wizzy and 1 shot them before they can do the same to you.  Also, Assassin end line tool tip that teleport's you to the target reads 10k damage at lvl 81.  I'm pretty sure that hits a heck of a lot harder than ice comet.  Combine that with his auto attack that has no joke killed 60% of the casters I face, they do not stand a chance.  (flurry FTW).  The fact that my wife's 89 wizzies max hit on BoI that i have seen was 5k on a [Removed for Content] swashy, that's a bit unfair.  And yes that BoI was enhanced and crit. Oh, and FYI, the swashy killed her right after that.</p><p>Now, wizzies/warlocks aside, conjy, necro, illy, and coercer = easy kills right now.  I will admit that a Warlock's rift needed some twinking in PvP considering it did own an entire group with ease when it was enhanced.  </p><p>All in all, scouts need to stop complaining how bad they had it before, and deal with the fact you can't play your toon as well as you thought you could.  There is an issue with caster DPS right now and I hope to god they fix it soon.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Wraths wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just to let the scouts know, my assassin could own a wizzy before the changes... I never saw a problem with spell damage.  Yes a wizard could 1 shot you, but I believe we have a .3 second cast time stun called "Cheap Shot" that gives you PLENTY of time to get up on the wizzy and 1 shot them before they can do the same to you.  Also, Assassin end line tool tip that teleport's you to the target reads 10k damage at lvl 81.  I'm pretty sure that hits a heck of a lot harder than ice comet.  Combine that with his auto attack that has no joke killed 60% of the casters I face, they do not stand a chance.  (flurry FTW).  The fact that my wife's 89 wizzies max hit on BoI that i have seen was 5k on a [Removed for Content] swashy, that's a bit unfair.  And yes that BoI was enhanced and crit. Oh, and FYI, the swashy killed her right after that.</p><p>Now, wizzies/warlocks aside, conjy, necro, illy, and coercer = easy kills right now.  I will admit that a Warlock's rift needed some twinking in PvP considering it did own an entire group with ease when it was enhanced.  </p><p>All in all, scouts need to stop complaining how bad they had it before, and deal with the fact you can't play your toon as well as you thought you could.  There is an issue with caster DPS right now and I hope to god they fix it soon.</p></blockquote><p>Every scout has a teleport, Every scout had flurry, and from your 81 comment, 80-89 BGs are the little gridders version of BGs.</p>

[Wigg]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wraths wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just to let the scouts know, my assassin could own a wizzy before the changes... I never saw a problem with spell damage.  Yes a wizard could 1 shot you, but I believe we have a .3 second cast time stun called "Cheap Shot" that gives you PLENTY of time to get up on the wizzy and 1 shot them before they can do the same to you.  Also, Assassin end line tool tip that teleport's you to the target reads 10k damage at lvl 81.  I'm pretty sure that hits a heck of a lot harder than ice comet.  Combine that with his auto attack that has no joke killed 60% of the casters I face, they do not stand a chance.  (flurry FTW).  The fact that my wife's 89 wizzies max hit on BoI that i have seen was 5k on a [Removed for Content] swashy, that's a bit unfair.  And yes that BoI was enhanced and crit. Oh, and FYI, the swashy killed her right after that.</p><p>Now, wizzies/warlocks aside, conjy, necro, illy, and coercer = easy kills right now.  I will admit that a Warlock's rift needed some twinking in PvP considering it did own an entire group with ease when it was enhanced.  </p><p>All in all, scouts need to stop complaining how bad they had it before, and deal with the fact you can't play your toon as well as you thought you could.  There is an issue with caster DPS right now and I hope to god they fix it soon.</p></blockquote><p>Every scout has a teleport, Every scout had flurry, and from your 81 comment, 80-89 BGs are the little gridders version of BGs.</p></blockquote><p>Exactly.. If you have a teleport, your auto attack brings a caster to 0-50% health.. Why the hell were you complaining in the first place?</p><p>To Zabom:</p><p><span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>I do not think pvp should be seperated from pve.  Thats a comment from someone who doesn't know how to play their class and is tired of losing to people who do.  I have 4 characters from BB server I do battlegrounds with.  I can tell you i have gone in with pug groups and OWNED pre-made naggy groups before.  It's all a matter of you and your team knowing their characters.</p><p>Edit:  Oh, and Ssofa, my main is a 90 templar I bring into BG too.  I can tell you right now a caster is a joke to my templar.  Infact, I dont even have to heal myself against a conjy unless they elemental blast.. and even then I just repent and continue to beat them.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Wraths wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wraths wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just to let the scouts know, my assassin could own a wizzy before the changes... I never saw a problem with spell damage.  Yes a wizard could 1 shot you, but I believe we have a .3 second cast time stun called "Cheap Shot" that gives you PLENTY of time to get up on the wizzy and 1 shot them before they can do the same to you.  Also, Assassin end line tool tip that teleport's you to the target reads 10k damage at lvl 81.  I'm pretty sure that hits a heck of a lot harder than ice comet.  Combine that with his auto attack that has no joke killed 60% of the casters I face, they do not stand a chance.  (flurry FTW).  The fact that my wife's 89 wizzies max hit on BoI that i have seen was 5k on a [Removed for Content] swashy, that's a bit unfair.  And yes that BoI was enhanced and crit. Oh, and FYI, the swashy killed her right after that.</p><p>Now, wizzies/warlocks aside, conjy, necro, illy, and coercer = easy kills right now.  I will admit that a Warlock's rift needed some twinking in PvP considering it did own an entire group with ease when it was enhanced.  </p><p>All in all, scouts need to stop complaining how bad they had it before, and deal with the fact you can't play your toon as well as you thought you could.  There is an issue with caster DPS right now and I hope to god they fix it soon.</p></blockquote><p>Every scout has a teleport, Every scout had flurry, and from your 81 comment, 80-89 BGs are the little gridders version of BGs.</p></blockquote><p>Exactly.. If you have a teleport, your auto attack brings a caster to 0-50% health.. Why the hell were you complaining in the first place?</p><p>To Zabom:</p><p><span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>I do not think pvp should be seperated from pve.  Thats a comment from someone who doesn't know how to play their class and is tired of losing to people who do.  I have 4 characters from BB server I do battlegrounds with.  I can tell you i have gone in with pug groups and OWNED pre-made naggy groups before.  It's all a matter of you and your team knowing their characters.</p><p>Edit:  Oh, and Ssofa, my main is a 90 templar I bring into BG too.  I can tell you right now a caster is a joke to my templar.  Infact, I dont even have to heal myself against a conjy unless they elemental blast.. and even then I just repent and continue to beat them.</p></blockquote><p>Not every scout is an assassin</p>

[Wigg]

<p>True, but a ranger can hit a caster from, oh, 45+ meters away.  All the other scouts get this really cool ability called "stuns."  Those things are pretty cool and should probably have some time invested into looking at them.</p><p>EDIT:  Key thing to remember.  Only caster I play in BG is a conjuror.  The rest of the time I'm the one beating on them.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Wraths wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>True, but a ranger can hit a caster from, oh, 45+ meters away.  All the other scouts get this really cool ability called "stuns."  Those things are pretty cool and should probably have some time invested into looking at them.</p><p>EDIT:  Key thing to remember.  Only caster I play in BG is a conjuror.  The rest of the time I'm the one beating on them.</p></blockquote><p>Did you know, Minus brigs with double through, Stuns are short range for scouts?</p>

[Wigg]

<p>Yes I did know that.  Did you know a caster has to have line of sight to kill you?  It's really not hard at all in any BG to hide from line of sight till the caster is 10 to 15 meters away.  Yes in SS you can't really hide too well, but this discussion is about BG not PvP servers.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Wraths wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yes I did know that.  Did you know a caster has to have line of sight to kill you?  It's really not hard at all in any BG to hide from line of sight till the caster is 10 to 15 meters away.  Yes in SS you can't really hide too well, but this discussion is about BG not PvP servers.</p></blockquote><p>A warlock only needed LoS of one of your members for a brief second to start casting to one shot a group. A scout requires LoS through a whole attack. I have very little sympathy for the sorcs and conjs before the fix seeing as they could do stupid amounts of damage in a hurry. At the same time, I have admitted many times which people like Zaboom seem to ignore that casters need an increase in damage, Sorcs the least, and summoners the most. Auto attack wasn't an issue for the casters before when they could kill them before they even got in range to begin with.</p>

[Zabom]

<p><cite>Wraths wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>To Zabom:</p><p><span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>I do not think pvp should be seperated from pve.  Thats a comment from someone who doesn't know how to play their class and is tired of losing to people who do.  I have 4 characters from BB server I do battlegrounds with.  I can tell you i have gone in with pug groups and OWNED pre-made naggy groups before.  It's all a matter of you and your team knowing their characters.</p></blockquote><p>Actually I don't think that is a good idea either...although some of their elitest attitudes are wearing thin for me. I was merely illustrating that <strong>it is easier to get a premade bg group on a pvp server because the rewards gained are more suitable to their normal everyday play style</strong>. A better solution would be to give everyone an option on queue to choose "no premade  groups". At least that would create a pug vs pug and premade vs premade situation instead of the curent common pug vs premade wipe and quit. if that were done however i believe you would find more pvp server players in the premade vs premade matches and more pve players in the pug vs pugs. I am not afraid to admit that pvp players are better at playing pvp. They have earned that ability through experiance. I can almost guarantee I am better then them at pve for the same reason. I am also not saying that that experiance gives them an unfair advantage. I am just saying that they have a higher percentage of people spending all day in BGs then the pve players do.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Zabom wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wraths wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>To Zabom:</p><p><span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>I do not think pvp should be seperated from pve.  Thats a comment from someone who doesn't know how to play their class and is tired of losing to people who do.  I have 4 characters from BB server I do battlegrounds with.  I can tell you i have gone in with pug groups and OWNED pre-made naggy groups before.  It's all a matter of you and your team knowing their characters.</p></blockquote><p>Actually I don't think that is a good idea either...although some of their elitest attitudes are wearing thin for me. I was merely illustrating that <strong>it is easier to get a premade bg group on a pvp server because the rewards gained are more suitable to their normal everyday play style</strong>. A better solution would be to give everyone an option on queue to choose "no premade  groups". At least that would create a pug vs pug and premade vs premade situation instead of the curent common pug vs premade wipe and quit. if that were done however i believe you would find more pvp server players in the premade vs premade matches and more pve players in the pug vs pugs. I am not afraid to admit that pvp players are better at playing pvp. They have earned that ability through experiance. I can almost guarantee I am better then them at pve for the same reason. I am also not saying that that experiance gives them an unfair advantage. I am just saying that they have a higher percentage of people spending all day in BGs then the pve players do.</p></blockquote><p>Assumptions based on no facts IMO</p>

[Trynt]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Don't speak for masses, speak for yourself, or else you risk making people mad with blanket statements.<p>I, as a PvP player, don't appreciate the sense of entitlement that PvE pleyers feel there should have going into a PvP based thing such as BGs. The PvE'ers came in trying to destroy any semblence of PvP balance because they didn't want to put in the time to learn to adapt to a totally new ruleset. If half the people spent half as much time adapting as they did complaining about stupid things that aren't even wrong, then they would be much better than they are. This is my opinion on this.</p></blockquote><p>As a somewhat infrequent poster, but avid reader, I usually agree with your well-reasoned posts.  In this case, not so much.</p><p>Just as I agree with your statement of "Don't speak for the masses...", you should take care not to global label PvE'ers who've come to enjoy BG's.  Many of us not only came in exceedingly well-prepared (in all facets) to both give and receive some healthy beatings, but many others have absolutely learned some valuable lessons as we popped our EQ2 BG cherries and adjusted accordingly.  Are there PvEers as you describe?  Yep, too many.  Are there PvEers in stark contrast to your description?  Yes, many.  Equally important, are there PvPers as you described PvEers above?  Yes, far more than I ever expected, to be quite frank.</p><p><cite>Zabom wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>BGs were designed to be a sport more then a pvp arena. unfortunately I have seen absolutely no sign of sportsmanship.</blockquote><p>I have.  It's rare, but it happens.  I've seen /salutes and /bows after some great battles.  Sure, I've seen my share of opposite reactions as well.  I've both given and received cross-server tells giving props for good tanking, healing, etc... </p><p>--------</p><p>The sad truth, however, is that since T9 BGs include level 90s in Treasured gear and 150AAs through characters with the best (or smartest, but that's a different thread) gear in the game and 250AAs with clear/well thought out PvP specs in mind - one group is always going to be unhappy when they meet on opposing sides.</p><p>For those who do hope for "balance" in such an environment, you're going to be perpetually disappointed.  I see tons of posts saying that the game is broken/unbalanced, or class A is inferior to class X, or archtype B and D need to be nerfed/boosted adjusted to compensate for poor experiences.  I never see a comparison between the 2 characters involved though or the context of group make-up and their respective gear/specs/tactics.  So in the end, nothing will please everyone.</p><p>The key is that if you're having fun, keep at it and improve (this also applies to me, of course).  Try something different.  If it doesn't work, try something else.  The only thing that I have direct control over is me and my choices/tactics.  The same applies to everyone, yet inside is the last place too many people seem to look as I read so many of these posts. </p><p>It's sad, really.</p>

[Zabom]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Zabom wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wraths wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>To Zabom:</p><p><span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>I do not think pvp should be seperated from pve.  Thats a comment from someone who doesn't know how to play their class and is tired of losing to people who do.  I have 4 characters from BB server I do battlegrounds with.  I can tell you i have gone in with pug groups and OWNED pre-made naggy groups before.  It's all a matter of you and your team knowing their characters.</p></blockquote><p>Actually I don't think that is a good idea either...although some of their elitest attitudes are wearing thin for me. I was merely illustrating that <strong>it is easier to get a premade bg group on a pvp server because the rewards gained are more suitable to their normal everyday play style</strong>. A better solution would be to give everyone an option on queue to choose "no premade  groups". At least that would create a pug vs pug and premade vs premade situation instead of the curent common pug vs premade wipe and quit. if that were done however i believe you would find more pvp server players in the premade vs premade matches and more pve players in the pug vs pugs. I am not afraid to admit that pvp players are better at playing pvp. They have earned that ability through experiance. I can almost guarantee I am better then them at pve for the same reason. I am also not saying that that experiance gives them an unfair advantage. I am just saying that they have a higher percentage of people spending all day in BGs then the pve players do.</p></blockquote><p>Assumptions based on no facts IMO</p></blockquote><p>Is it not a fact that BG gear is needed for you open world pvp? Yet it is not near as good for raiding as my x2 and x4 raid gear.</p><p>Is it not a fact that BGs hurt open world pvp? Consiquently BGS are a desirable alternative.</p><p>Is it not a fact that server population is down? On pve servers getting a group together to finish quests, run instance, and raid is a higher priority then wanting to kill other players. Otherwise we would be on a pvp server.</p><p>When BGs started it was a fun way to spend 20 mins if that was all the time you had to play before going to work. Now it is no longer fun unless you take the same amount of time as it would take to run an instance.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Trynt wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Don't speak for masses, speak for yourself, or else you risk making people mad with blanket statements.<p>I, as a PvP player, don't appreciate the sense of entitlement that PvE pleyers feel there should have going into a PvP based thing such as BGs. The PvE'ers came in trying to destroy any semblence of PvP balance because they didn't want to put in the time to learn to adapt to a totally new ruleset. If half the people spent half as much time adapting as they did complaining about stupid things that aren't even wrong, then they would be much better than they are. This is my opinion on this.</p></blockquote><p>As a somewhat infrequent poster, but avid reader, I usually agree with your well-reasoned posts.  In this case, not so much.</p><p>Just as I agree with your statement of "Don't speak for the masses...", you should take care not to global label PvE'ers who've come to enjoy BG's.  Many of us not only came in exceedingly well-prepared (in all facets) to both give and receive some healthy beatings, but many others have absolutely learned some valuable lessons as we popped our EQ2 BG cherries and adjusted accordingly.  Are there PvEers as you describe?  Yep, too many.  Are there PvEers in stark contrast to your description?  Yes, many.  Equally important, are there PvPers as you described PvEers above?  Yes, far more than I ever expected, to be quite frank.</p><p><cite>Zabom wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>BGs were designed to be a sport more then a pvp arena. unfortunately I have seen absolutely no sign of sportsmanship.</blockquote><p>I have.  It's rare, but it happens.  I've seen /salutes and /bows after some great battles.  Sure, I've seen my share of opposite reactions as well.  I've both given and received cross-server tells giving props for good tanking, healing, etc... </p><p>--------</p><p>The sad truth, however, is that since T9 BGs include level 90s in Treasured gear and 150AAs through characters with the best (or smartest, but that's a different thread) gear in the game and 250AAs with clear/well thought out PvP specs in mind - one group is always going to be unhappy when they meet on opposing sides.</p><p>For those who do hope for "balance" in such an environment, you're going to be perpetually disappointed.  I see tons of posts saying that the game is broken/unbalanced, or class A is inferior to class X, or archtype B and D need to be nerfed/boosted adjusted to compensate for poor experiences.  I never see a comparison between the 2 characters involved though or the context of group make-up and their respective gear/specs/tactics.  So in the end, nothing will please everyone.</p><p>The key is that if you're having fun, keep at it and improve (this also applies to me, of course).  Try something different.  If it doesn't work, try something else.  The only thing that I have direct control over is me and my choices/tactics.  The same applies to everyone, yet inside is the last place too many people seem to look as I read so many of these posts. </p><p>It's sad, really.</p></blockquote><p>Oh, Trust me, I recognize idiocy on both sides, I can't just call out one person though, thats bannable, but I dont' say things like "everyone" or Nobody</p>

[Neskonlith]

<p><cite>Jjay@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>what does your autoattack hit for?  Can you swing a hammer and do more damage than a conj casting a spell? </p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Here are some auto-attack damage parses of my <strong>Scout</strong> in BeeGees from yesterday, summary and then a detailed snippet</span>:</p><p><img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/parses/Ganak1outgosummary.jpg" /></p><p><img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/parses/Ganak1outgodetailexcerpt.jpg" /></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">And here are parses of melee attacks made against my <strong>scout</strong> in yesterday's BeeGees, summary and then detail snippet:</span></p><p><img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/parses/Ganak1incsummary.jpg" /></p><p><img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/parses/Ganak1incdetailexcerpt.jpg" /></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Please post some matching parses for a wizard in the BeeGees: IC for <strong>Outgoing Damage</strong> would be cool, and "slash" melee for <strong>Incoming Damage</strong> to give us some numbers to look at.</span></p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Zabom wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Zabom wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wraths wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>To Zabom:</p><p><span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>I do not think pvp should be seperated from pve.  Thats a comment from someone who doesn't know how to play their class and is tired of losing to people who do.  I have 4 characters from BB server I do battlegrounds with.  I can tell you i have gone in with pug groups and OWNED pre-made naggy groups before.  It's all a matter of you and your team knowing their characters.</p></blockquote><p>Actually I don't think that is a good idea either...although some of their elitest attitudes are wearing thin for me. I was merely illustrating that <strong>it is easier to get a premade bg group on a pvp server because the rewards gained are more suitable to their normal everyday play style</strong>. A better solution would be to give everyone an option on queue to choose "no premade  groups". At least that would create a pug vs pug and premade vs premade situation instead of the curent common pug vs premade wipe and quit. if that were done however i believe you would find more pvp server players in the premade vs premade matches and more pve players in the pug vs pugs. I am not afraid to admit that pvp players are better at playing pvp. They have earned that ability through experiance. I can almost guarantee I am better then them at pve for the same reason. I am also not saying that that experiance gives them an unfair advantage. I am just saying that they have a higher percentage of people spending all day in BGs then the pve players do.</p></blockquote><p>Assumptions based on no facts IMO</p></blockquote><p>Is it not a fact that BG gear is needed for you open world pvp? Yet it is not near as good for raiding as my x2 and x4 raid gear.<span style="color: #ff0000;"> BG/PVP gear yes. You can do either, and Open world has picked up since resists were fixed, still not where it should be but better.</span></p><p>Is it not a fact that BGs hurt open world pvp? Consiquently BGS are a desirable alternative. <span style="color: #ff0000;">Yes, but just like the zerg of expansions past, the PvP players will cash in on the ability to get decent/good gear for their alts and then not open PvP after, with few exceptions. BGs are a quicker alternative to this farming because the matches are faster than the cooldowns on PvP writs, bar Smugglers.</span></p><p>Is it not a fact that server population is down? On pve servers getting a group together to finish quests, run instance, and raid is a higher priority then wanting to kill other players. Otherwise we would be on a pvp server.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">This is where I will question you, How often are say, raiders, going to do instances into the expansion, or quest groups, or everything. I would wager if you put time into looking for a BG group, and worked to form a good one, it would work because a lot of blue server people love them as well.</span></p><p>When BGs started it was a fun way to spend 20 mins if that was all the time you had to play before going to work. Now it is no longer fun unless you take the same amount of time as it would take to run an instance.</p></blockquote>

[Zabom]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p>Is it not a fact that server population is down? On pve servers getting a group together to finish quests, run instance, and raid is a higher priority then wanting to kill other players. Otherwise we would be on a pvp server.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">This is where I will question you, How often are say, raiders, going to do instances into the expansion, or quest groups, or everything. I would wager if you put time into looking for a BG group, and worked to form a good one, it would work because a lot of blue server people love them as well.</span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>I have tried to put together BG groups. It usually lasts one or 2 BGs then someone says " hey lets 1 group PR for plat" or "Lets run the airship instances or a scaled up t8 zone for masters and transmutables"  It might be easier if communication were easier. However when the people who ARE interested in doing BGs are only on server for the few seconds inbetween each queue it is very dificult to actually form the group. And the fact is, if I can get a good group together I would rather  do a raid or instance then BGs. The rewards for that are more suited to MY play style. I only play BGs for the "quick" eq2 fix when I don't have time to do what I realy enjoy which is pve. I can tell you first hand that that same attitude is shared by the majority of pve players.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Zabom wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p>Is it not a fact that server population is down? On pve servers getting a group together to finish quests, run instance, and raid is a higher priority then wanting to kill other players. Otherwise we would be on a pvp server.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">This is where I will question you, How often are say, raiders, going to do instances into the expansion, or quest groups, or everything. I would wager if you put time into looking for a BG group, and worked to form a good one, it would work because a lot of blue server people love them as well.</span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>I have tried to put together BG groups. It usually lasts one or 2 BGs then someone says " hey lets 1 group PR for plat" or "Lets run the airship instances or a scaled up t8 zone for masters and transmutables"  It might be easier if communication were easier. However when the people who ARE interested in doing BGs are only on server for the few seconds inbetween each queue it is very dificult to actually form the group. And the fact is, if I can get a good group together I would rather  do a raid or instance then BGs. The rewards for that are more suited to MY play style. I only play BGs for the "quick" eq2 fix when I don't have time to do what I realy enjoy which is pve. I can tell you first hand that that same attitude is shared by the majority of pve players.</p></blockquote><p>So, You are going to say you can't get a good premade for BGs, yet if you could you wouldn't even go to BG's? I'm so confused how this is logical</p>

[Zabom]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Zabom wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p>Is it not a fact that server population is down? On pve servers getting a group together to finish quests, run instance, and raid is a higher priority then wanting to kill other players. Otherwise we would be on a pvp server.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">This is where I will question you, How often are say, raiders, going to do instances into the expansion, or quest groups, or everything. I would wager if you put time into looking for a BG group, and worked to form a good one, it would work because a lot of blue server people love them as well.</span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>I have tried to put together BG groups. It usually lasts one or 2 BGs then someone says " hey lets 1 group PR for plat" or "Lets run the airship instances or a scaled up t8 zone for masters and transmutables"  It might be easier if communication were easier. However when the people who ARE interested in doing BGs are only on server for the few seconds inbetween each queue it is very dificult to actually form the group. And the fact is, if I can get a good group together I would rather  do a raid or instance then BGs. The rewards for that are more suited to MY play style. I only play BGs for the "quick" eq2 fix when I don't have time to do what I realy enjoy which is pve. I can tell you first hand that that same attitude is shared by the majority of pve players.</p></blockquote><p>So, You are going to say you can't get a good premade for BGs, yet if you could you wouldn't even go to BG's? I'm so confused how this is logical</p></blockquote><p>It is logical because it points out that on a pve server most people who are doing BGs are doing so because they are NOT in a group. You seem to be an inteligent person, at least TRY to understand what i am saying.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Zabom wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Zabom wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p>Is it not a fact that server population is down? On pve servers getting a group together to finish quests, run instance, and raid is a higher priority then wanting to kill other players. Otherwise we would be on a pvp server.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">This is where I will question you, How often are say, raiders, going to do instances into the expansion, or quest groups, or everything. I would wager if you put time into looking for a BG group, and worked to form a good one, it would work because a lot of blue server people love them as well.</span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>I have tried to put together BG groups. It usually lasts one or 2 BGs then someone says " hey lets 1 group PR for plat" or "Lets run the airship instances or a scaled up t8 zone for masters and transmutables"  It might be easier if communication were easier. However when the people who ARE interested in doing BGs are only on server for the few seconds inbetween each queue it is very dificult to actually form the group. And the fact is, if I can get a good group together I would rather  do a raid or instance then BGs. The rewards for that are more suited to MY play style. I only play BGs for the "quick" eq2 fix when I don't have time to do what I realy enjoy which is pve. I can tell you first hand that that same attitude is shared by the majority of pve players.</p></blockquote><p>So, You are going to say you can't get a good premade for BGs, yet if you could you wouldn't even go to BG's? I'm so confused how this is logical</p></blockquote><p>It is logical because it points out that on a pve server most people who are doing BGs are doing so because they are NOT in a group. You seem to be an inteligent person, at least TRY to understand what i am saying.</p></blockquote><p>I don't get it, You aren't the only one saying you can't get BG groups premade. Yet, If given the chance to have just that, you would forfeit it in favor of something else. It is illogical to me, Instances will always be there when you don't have a perfect group, yet as you admit it's hard to get a good BG group. so if you have one, why not take advantage of it.</p>

[Zabom]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Zabom wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Zabom wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p>Is it not a fact that server population is down? On pve servers getting a group together to finish quests, run instance, and raid is a higher priority then wanting to kill other players. Otherwise we would be on a pvp server.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">This is where I will question you, How often are say, raiders, going to do instances into the expansion, or quest groups, or everything. I would wager if you put time into looking for a BG group, and worked to form a good one, it would work because a lot of blue server people love them as well.</span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>I have tried to put together BG groups. It usually lasts one or 2 BGs then someone says " hey lets 1 group PR for plat" or "Lets run the airship instances or a scaled up t8 zone for masters and transmutables"  It might be easier if communication were easier. However when the people who ARE interested in doing BGs are only on server for the few seconds inbetween each queue it is very dificult to actually form the group. And the fact is, if I can get a good group together I would rather  do a raid or instance then BGs. The rewards for that are more suited to MY play style. I only play BGs for the "quick" eq2 fix when I don't have time to do what I realy enjoy which is pve. I can tell you first hand that that same attitude is shared by the majority of pve players.</p></blockquote><p>So, You are going to say you can't get a good premade for BGs, yet if you could you wouldn't even go to BG's? I'm so confused how this is logical</p></blockquote><p>It is logical because it points out that on a pve server most people who are doing BGs are doing so because they are NOT in a group. You seem to be an inteligent person, at least TRY to understand what i am saying.</p></blockquote><p>I don't get it, You aren't the only one saying you can't get BG groups premade. Yet, If given the chance to have just that, you would forfeit it in favor of something else. It is illogical to me, Instances will always be there when you don't have a perfect group, yet as you admit it's hard to get a good BG group. so if you have one, why not take advantage of it.</p></blockquote><p>Because, even though BGs are fun, I and many others find PVE more fun. I don't expect you to agree with it being more fun, because we all have diferent tastes. But to many pve players it is. That is why when I do BGs I am usually in a pug. Not because I don't want to take the time to create a premade, but instead because I have nothing better to do with the limeted time and players I have at my disposal. I think that we can agree that pugs vs premade will usually go to the premade. that leaves people like me , with pve oriented priorities at the disadvantage.  There is little that can be done about it, and I would not even think of suggesting that we make BGs less fun for people who are more serious about them in order to be "fair" to the people who arn't. But a "pug group only" option at queue might go a long way to keep the "serious" BGers segregated from the "time killing" BGers. That would be a win win for everyone.</p>

[Raznor2]

<p>Ya know, we probably wouldn't even be having these conversations if they hadn't messed up spell resists then let them run all messed up for the first three months of battlegrounds.  Instead it would have been about tweaking damage and the balance of pvp battles veering towards tanks and healers. </p><p>Anyways, the original question : "Should Scout auto attack hit for more damage than mage spells?"</p><p>It's a pretty broad question, and begs a few questions:</p><p>1.  Which spells?</p><p>2.  What class is the auto attack on? </p><p>3.  What class is doing the auto attack?</p><p>4.  Is it dual weilding or bow?</p><p>Look at Tadakatsu's parses, he averaged, 331 per hit and only broke 1k about three times for a whopping 80.56 ext dps.  In the second parse he averaged 167 per hit and 167.57 ext dps.  Look at the hits he had on Armorfreak, never broke 200 on auto attack damage.  That's a similar to how meleeing most tanks or plate healers go, fast dual wielding weapons get mitigated/avoided down to trivial numbers. </p><p>Now take Tadakatsu and put him on a summoner or enchanter, classes that have some of the poorest mitigation and avoidance and he's going to do a good deal more per hit. </p><p>Take a rogue or predator and they're going to do even more against a summoner or enchanter.  A ranger with a high delay bow is going to hit even higher per hit.  But put scouts on tanks and that average hit is going to sink, they'll be mitigated and avoided more.  You get a similar decline against almost any other class other than summoner or enchanter.</p><p>So to answer the question</p><p>1.  Depends on the spell and it depends on the auto attack damage.  It's feasible that a ranger's auto attack is going to hit for more in one hit that a dot.</p><p>2.  If the auto attack is on enchanter or summoner?  Could do more damage, you're the softest of the soft.  If the auto attack is on a tank?  It's unlikely that auto attack is going to do more damage than your middle of the road spell damage.</p><p>3.  If it's a bard auto attacking?  Well look at tada's parses, he averages less than 400 a hit.  A predator, ranger especially, can do more in one hit.</p><p>4.  Dual weilding will hit max around 2k for me, no idea what a bow will hit for.  But using any abilities max as a barometer is like saying because I made a 3 pointer from beyond half court before that that is my range.  It's not, my average is my range and as a swashie my average is between 300 to 600 per hit depending on the match and who I'm hitting.</p><p>~Raznor</p>

[PeaSy1]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Zabom wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Brickfist wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Stay close enough to the tanks so you can get these melee taunted off of you. Stay close enough to the healers so you're not out of their range, and for god sakes QyfQ</p></blockquote><p>Spoken like someone who only does premade groups. If I were in a well ballanced premade I would agree with you completely. However, some of us only have 20 minutes at a time to play, so we do the only thing we can. We use the matchmaker and form a pick up group. 90% of the time that means no tank, no healer, or both. Of course their are holes in your theory even if you do. If you are in range of the tank and healer, you are also in range of the target locks and AOE's. If you would ever play a sorcerer you would know that that is the quickest way to die. Pick up healers have a tendency to lock onto the tank and not worry about any aoes that are hitting the rest of the group. Pick up tanks when they do taunt save thier rescues for the healers. I am not saying that that is a bad thing, they depend on each other to survive, and in their place I would probably make the same choices. What I am saying, is that even when we play as a group we are usually considered the expenable portion of that group so , to an extent we are on our own. We dont have 20K+ hp we don't have plate armor. Our manashield only allows for escape as it is gone quickly and leaves us with no mana to perform even the smallest spell. Our mitigation (sorcerers) can be high with the right spec, but our avoidence is still next to nothing. We are very easily interupted as even our fastest casting spells are almost twice the casting time of the longest casting combat arts. Without a dedicated healer on us, we are taken out as quickly as we are identified as a threat. In a perfect scenario, the real skill of a pvp mage would be in trying to stay out of taunt/aoe range of the opposing team while staying within heal/taunt range of your own. That, more often then not, is completely impossible especially now that the fights have become 1 long zerg fest. </p><p>So I would say this to all the people who go into BGs with a premade group day after day and slaughter the "unorganized poorly speced, laughabely geared" pugs. Try it. Queue yourself up for a few matches by yourself. See how frustrating it is to be the only player on your team that even bothered to change to a pvp spec or is attepting to keep the group together. See how mad it makes you when after 2 minutes the rest of your team decides to give up and wait out the timer. You could quit too, but out of a sense of pride and not wanting to be seen as a quitter, you throw yourself against an entire group again and again. See how humiliating it is to be the only one of your group left, who in the face of the impossible, is even trying to get a kill for your side only to have your corpse humped by the other side who is winning not by skill, but by default. Sure, I could get a group together for BGs, but if I am going to go to the trouble of putting together a well balanced group, why would I want to waste my time doing BGs when we could do an instance for a chance at a master chest or something I can use in pve. I play a pve game. My priorities are different from the pvp players. Thinking that pvp players and pve players could ever be on equal footing when pvp players play BGs to get the gear they need for regular pvp and pve players only play BGs to kill time and have fun was SoEs folly. That I am afraid is the biggest mistake SoE made in the whole BG fiasco. Pvp and pve players have a diferent mentality. The pvp players want to use it to get back what they lost in open world pvp. Pve players just want to play the game and get some AA.</p><p>BGs were designed to be a sport more then a pvp arena. unfortunately I have seen absolutely no sign of sportsmanship.</p></blockquote><p>Don't speak for masses, speak for yourself, or else you risk making people mad with blanket statements.</p><p>I, as a PvP player, don't appreciate the sense of entitlement that PvE pleyers feel there should have going into a PvP based thing such as BGs. The PvE'ers came in trying to destroy any semblence of PvP balance because they didn't want to put in the time to learn to adapt to a totally new ruleset. If half the people spent half as much time adapting as they did complaining about stupid things that aren't even wrong, then they would be much better than they are. This is my opinion on this.</p></blockquote><p>You dont fall under this category you are just a bluebie playing on the wrong server.</p><p>And as far as conjy damage goes im still doing allright even after hitting 90 my gear is so so now but i dont even have my epic done and still only like 100 aa and im still doing allright damage the real thing that hinders that is that fights are over soo fast that as a conjy my dots and stuff arent getting to stack up properly. Even EB is still hitting decent at like 700-1000 per tick which is plenty of damage for a single nuke.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p>Oh yes Dudoes, I really care what you say or think about me...Oh wait</p>

[Neskonlith]

<p><cite>Raznor@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Anyways, the original question : "Should Scout auto attack hit for more damage than mage spells?"</p><p>1.  Depends on the spell and it depends on the auto attack damage.  It's feasible that a ranger's auto attack is going to hit for more in one hit that a dot.</p><p>2.  If the auto attack is on enchanter or summoner?  Could do more damage, you're the softest of the soft.  If the auto attack is on a tank?  It's unlikely that auto attack is going to do more damage than your middle of the road spell damage.</p><p>3.  If it's a bard auto attacking?  Well look at tada's parses, he averages less than 400 a hit.  A predator, ranger especially, can do more in one hit.</p><p>4.  Dual weilding will hit max around 2k for me, no idea what a bow will hit for.  But using any abilities max as a barometer is like saying because I made a 3 pointer from beyond half court before that that is my range.  It's not, my average is my range and as a swashie my average is between 300 to 600 per hit depending on the match and who I'm hitting.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">To add a little more data from</span> <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=15&topic_id=476419" target="_blank">another thread over in pvp section </a><span style="color: #ff0000;">that is touching on this subject:</span></p><p style="padding-left: 30px;"><span style="color: #ff0000;"><em>Look at the incoming "pierce" damage - Troub</em></span> <a href="http://everquest2.station.sony.com/Crushbone/Lyrikal/" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: #ffff99;">Lyrikal</span></span></a> <span style="color: #ff0000;"><em>had 13 of his 28 melee auto-attacks "miss", "dodge" and "parry".  </em></span></p><p style="padding-left: 30px;"><span style="color: #ff0000;"><em>The lowest actual hit was 9 damage, and the highest was 619 damage.</em></span></p><p style="padding-left: 30px;"><a href="http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/3738/piercek.jpg">http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/...738/piercek.jpg</a></p><p style="padding-left: 30px;"> </p>

[Neskonlith]

<p><span style="color: #ff0000;">That above parse information is in reference to a scout melee attacking a caster in 90s BeeGees.</span></p>

[Ralpmet]

<p><cite>Raznor@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Now take Tadakatsu and put him on a summoner or enchanter, classes that have some of the poorest mitigation and avoidance and he's going to do a good deal more per hit. </p><p>Take a rogue or predator and they're going to do even more against a summoner or enchanter.  A ranger with a high delay bow is going to hit even higher per hit.  But put scouts on tanks and that average hit is going to sink, they'll be mitigated and avoided more.  You get a similar decline against almost any other class other than summoner or enchanter.</p></blockquote><p>The issue I have with this post is my level 84 coercer has 51% mit and 49% avoidance, and still dies instantly to rangers auto attack, 2 ca's from any brig my level, and even bruisers that get the jump on me bring me down near instantly. </p><p>On the flip side however, pre expansion my inquisitor would kill any clothy (even pvp armor'd clothies) in 1-2 cycles of combat arts. So this is really how it's always been.  </p><p>I do feel bad for mages in BG's though, from my own personal experience I can kill rangers that get the jump on me in open world, but in a place like gears I have no clue where the ranger is hitting me from, let alone how far away he is. And avoidance doesn't seem to matter at all on ranged attacks, I've never avoided a ranged hit (maybe I should look through a parse and I might, but dying in 2 seconds or less constantly has me really doubting it.) on my coercer with 49% avoidance. I'd really expect to avoid almost half of them, when we're all mentored to 80, isn't that a fairly logical thing to pull out of it?</p>

[Neskonlith]

<p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Here are the AA setups on eq2SP for 2 wizards who are not enjoying their pvp experience:</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Wizard 1:</span></p><p><img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/AA1.jpg" /></p><p><img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/AA3.jpg" /></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">and wizard 2:</span></p><p><img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/2ndAA1.jpg" /></p><p><img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/2ndaa3.jpg" /></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I see more than a few missed opportunities to improve dps and reduce melee damage in those AA specs...</span></p>

[Crismorn]

<p><cite>Zabom wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p>Is it not a fact that server population is down? On pve servers getting a group together to finish quests, run instance, and raid is a higher priority then wanting to kill other players. Otherwise we would be on a pvp server.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">This is where I will question you, How often are say, raiders, going to do instances into the expansion, or quest groups, or everything. I would wager if you put time into looking for a BG group, and worked to form a good one, it would work because a lot of blue server people love them as well.</span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>I have tried to put together BG groups. It usually lasts one or 2 BGs then someone says " hey lets 1 group PR for plat" or "Lets run the airship instances or a scaled up t8 zone for masters and transmutables"  It might be easier if communication were easier. However when the people who ARE interested in doing BGs are only on server for the few seconds inbetween each queue it is very dificult to actually form the group. And the fact is, if I can get a good group together I would rather  do a raid or instance then BGs. The rewards for that are more suited to MY play style. I only play BGs for the "quick" eq2 fix when I don't have time to do what I realy enjoy which is pve.<strong> I can tell you first hand that that same attitude is shared by the majority of pve players.</strong></p></blockquote><p>Did it take long to ask them all?</p><p>I quit eq2 mid tso and then when bg's were announced I re-sub'd to try them, went from lvl 80>90 off of bg xp, I have yet to even see any of the new zones, have not tried raiding, done 0 quests outside of bg's and I have also done 0 heroic instances.</p><p>BG's are why I re-sub'd and continue to play eq2 and the majority of pve players agree with me, I asked them all individually and it was unanimous</p>