So when are predators getting the nerf? [Archive]

Blaidd

04-17-2010, 05:36 PM

After you blanket nerfed casters to the point of almost extinction in bg's as they cant deal damage (the sole purpose of them wearing cloth and having less hp than all other classes) the BG's are around 1/3 predators now with most being assassins.Autoattacks of over 1k they target and run in circles around you. Shadowstep has to be the most OP damage in the game at the moment accounting for 75% of my deaths (on pretty much all classes except tank). Their dps exceeds what casters were doing before the nerf by far and they have much better survival rates from better armour, avoidance, detaunts etc.If you nerfed casters for being OP these have to be next on this list to bring them in balance with the rest or is the sony favouritsm going to rear its head and actually buff them like it usually does.

Darkonx

04-17-2010, 06:01 PM

Assassins have the restriction that they have to be close to you to kill you. Casters did not. Assassins aren't OP.

Stuckx

04-17-2010, 06:02 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Assassins have the restriction that they have to be close to you to kill you. Casters did not. Assassins aren't OP.</blockquote>Cause getting close to people is just sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo hard,amirite?

Darkonx

04-17-2010, 06:15 PM

Avirodar

04-17-2010, 06:27 PM

<cite>Stuckx@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Assassins have the restriction that they have to be close to you to kill you. Casters did not. Assassins aren't OP.</blockquote>Cause getting close to people is just sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo hard,amirite?</blockquote>Until I see single scouts being able to level an entire group, in a matter of seconds, with ease, your entire argument that scout DPS is OP, has zero merit.Scouts also can not take healers+tanks from 100% hp to dead, in a single or two (heavens forbid!!) spell casts from a safe distance.You clearly refuse to acknowledge the reality of the situation, because playing a caster in BGs now takes skill and effort. I for one am glad to see the rediculous amount of noob casters that plagued battlegrounds, has been culled. Huzzah!

Stuckx

04-17-2010, 06:27 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Stuckx@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Assassins have the restriction that they have to be close to you to kill you. Casters did not. Assassins aren't OP.</blockquote>Cause getting close to people is just sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo hard,amirite?</blockquote>It's harder than NOT having to be anywhere near them.</blockquote>False. Trying to keep a meleer off of you=20 times harder than getting ontop of someone. FACT.

Avirodar

04-17-2010, 06:29 PM

<cite>Stuckx@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>False. Trying to keep a meleer off of you=20 times harder than getting ontop of someone. FACT.</blockquote>You are saying they can get on you easily, but you can not get on them easily? Sounds like you need to learn to play, tbh.

Novusod

04-17-2010, 06:35 PM

I don't play a Predator and I don't think they need a nerf. Predators have mostly situational single target attacks that have to be done in stealth and from behind. First use see stealth totems so you can see them coming and second don't let them get behind you. Yell at your your tank to the taunt them. A taunted scout beating a tank is pretty much useless.

Blaidd

04-17-2010, 06:45 PM

Do you guys even know the class abailities of anyone outside your own class? Assassin get Shadow step, if outside 10 metres they teleport to the target instantly. No caster can beat its range or cast before the assassin is on them cutting them to pieces. I have been in matches where I have seen kill a whole group in less time than it takes a warlock to get a single nuke off.Learn about other classes not just oh I got nuked one by a caster when I was in crap gear and I died. They are overpowered nerf em <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />What I do find ridiculous is the fact your saying casters were overpowered yet your avatar implies your an sk. If a caster was killing you you need to delete your char and start again......in wow

Armawk

04-17-2010, 06:56 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's harder than NOT having to be anywhere near them.</blockquote>Actually you are getting your logic in a twist. Let me help you out, you can thank me later.An assassin has to get in close to kill quickly, but can cast all important abilities on the move (except a couple of ranged I know but thats irrelevant).Mages have to keep outside melee distance while not moving.Mages dont 'not have to be near' they have to 'not be near' which is not at all the same thing. With the addition of the factor 'not be near and not be moving' it is substantially different.

Armawk

04-17-2010, 06:58 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't play a Predator and I don't think they need a nerf. Predators have mostly situational single target attacks that have to be done in stealth and from behind. First use see stealth totems so you can see them coming and second don't let them get behind you. Yell at your your tank to the taunt them. A taunted scout beating a tank is pretty much useless.</blockquote>They dont get any abilities that can assist them in being behind you? or perhaps any abilities that throw them into stealth during combat?The tank comment IS accurate, with a good tank of some classes doing their job it will get hard for assassins. Outside that circumstance they currently have pretty free reign though.

Darkonx

04-17-2010, 07:04 PM

<cite>Ysbryd@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do you guys even know the class abailities of anyone outside your own class? Assassin get Shadow step, if outside 10 metres they teleport to the target instantly. No caster can beat its range or cast before the assassin is on them cutting them to pieces. I have been in matches where I have seen kill a whole group in less time than it takes a warlock to get a single nuke off.Learn about other classes not just oh I got nuked one by a caster when I was in crap gear and I died. They are overpowered nerf em <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />What I do find ridiculous is the fact your saying casters were overpowered yet your avatar implies your an sk. If a caster was killing you you need to delete your char and start again......in wow</blockquote>My gear is not 'crap'. I'm wearing some of the best gear available in game. A caster nuking for 16k, then double attacking, totaling 32k damage, is going to one shot you. That is just a fact. That happened to me multiple times in Battlegrounds previous to the fix. What can I do to prevent getting one shotted pre-fix? Nothing. I have one stoneskin that I can use when I see the animation for IC, but, that's it. I every ability every class has, and yes, an assassin can shadowstep to you, but that being said, their DPS is primarily ST vs a casters AE DPS. Whereas a caster could take out an entire group at once, an assassin can kill one target at a time.

Darkonx

04-17-2010, 07:09 PM

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's harder than NOT having to be anywhere near them.</blockquote>Actually you are getting your logic in a twist. Let me help you out, you can thank me later.An assassin has to get in close to kill quickly, but can cast all important abilities on the move (except a couple of ranged I know but thats irrelevant).Mages have to keep outside melee distance while not moving.Mages dont 'not have to be near' they have to 'not be near' which is not at all the same thing. With the addition of the factor 'not be near and not be moving' it is substantially different.</blockquote>Let me help you out. It is easier to stand at 20 meters away and nuke someone, than it is to get within melee range and attack someone. That is what I said.

Stuckx

04-17-2010, 07:20 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's harder than NOT having to be anywhere near them.</blockquote>Actually you are getting your logic in a twist. Let me help you out, you can thank me later.An assassin has to get in close to kill quickly, but can cast all important abilities on the move (except a couple of ranged I know but thats irrelevant).Mages have to keep outside melee distance while not moving.Mages dont 'not have to be near' they have to 'not be near' which is not at all the same thing. With the addition of the factor 'not be near and not be moving' it is substantially different.</blockquote>Let me help you out. It is easier to stand at 20 meters away and nuke someone, than it is to get within melee range and attack someone. That is what I said.</blockquote>How can you possibly think that? Are you stupid,or just don't want to concede that fact that your wrong. It is a thousand times easier for a melee class to simply walk up to a caster and start meleeing them,than it is for that caster to keep that meleer at range to nuke them

Stuckx

04-17-2010, 07:24 PM

Darkonx

04-17-2010, 07:25 PM

<cite>Stuckx@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's harder than NOT having to be anywhere near them.</blockquote>Actually you are getting your logic in a twist. Let me help you out, you can thank me later.An assassin has to get in close to kill quickly, but can cast all important abilities on the move (except a couple of ranged I know but thats irrelevant).Mages have to keep outside melee distance while not moving.Mages dont 'not have to be near' they have to 'not be near' which is not at all the same thing. With the addition of the factor 'not be near and not be moving' it is substantially different.</blockquote>Let me help you out. It is easier to stand at 20 meters away and nuke someone, than it is to get within melee range and attack someone. That is what I said.</blockquote>How can you possibly think that? Are you stupid,or just don't want to concede that fact that your wrong. It is a thousand times easier for a melee class to simply walk up to a caster and start meleeing them,than it is for that caster to keep that meleer at range to nuke them</blockquote>Where did I ever say 'keep at range' or 'avoid' or 'get away from'? I never did. It is easier to be 20 meters away and click a button, than it is to run forward ANOTHER 20 meters and hit a button. It is easier to stop moving closer sooner. It is easier to hit someone from 20 meters, than 2 meters. It is easier to nuke someone than melee someone. It is easier to stand at range, than to have to close into melee combat. I never said 'it is easier to maintain distance than it is to maintain melee range'. Read what I said.

Disma

04-17-2010, 07:33 PM

And we all know that predators have NO range attacks at all....so they have to be right on top of you /sarcasm offWith shadow step an assasin can get within melee range easily and rangers do not need to be close to do damage and neither do assasins since bows hit extremely hard.

steelbadger

04-17-2010, 07:38 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Where did I ever say 'keep at range' or 'avoid' or 'get away from'? I never did. It is easier to be 20 meters away and click a button, than it is to run forward ANOTHER 20 meters and hit a button. It is easier to stop moving closer sooner. It is easier to hit someone from 20 meters, than 2 meters. It is easier to nuke someone than melee someone. It is easier to stand at range, than to have to close into melee combat. I never said 'it is easier to maintain distance than it is to maintain melee range'. Read what I said.</blockquote>Slight issue with the reasoning here...PvP is not fought against training dummies. It doesn't matter how easy it is to stand at range compared to standing in melee range, what matters is how easy/hard it is to maintain an enemy within your killzone (and you without theirs).

Darkonx

04-17-2010, 07:41 PM

<cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Where did I ever say 'keep at range' or 'avoid' or 'get away from'? I never did. It is easier to be 20 meters away and click a button, than it is to run forward ANOTHER 20 meters and hit a button. It is easier to stop moving closer sooner. It is easier to hit someone from 20 meters, than 2 meters. It is easier to nuke someone than melee someone. It is easier to stand at range, than to have to close into melee combat. I never said 'it is easier to maintain distance than it is to maintain melee range'. Read what I said.</blockquote>Slight issue with the reasoning here...PvP is not fought against training dummies. It doesn't matter how easy it is to stand at range compared to standing in melee range, what matters is how easy/hard it is to maintain an enemy within your killzone (and you without theirs).</blockquote>Mages killzone = within 30 metersAssassin killzone = within 3 meters

Stuckx

04-17-2010, 07:44 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Where did I ever say 'keep at range' or 'avoid' or 'get away from'? I never did. It is easier to be 20 meters away and click a button, than it is to run forward ANOTHER 20 meters and hit a button. It is easier to stop moving closer sooner. It is easier to hit someone from 20 meters, than 2 meters. It is easier to nuke someone than melee someone. It is easier to stand at range, than to have to close into melee combat. I never said 'it is easier to maintain distance than it is to maintain melee range'. Read what I said.</blockquote>Slight issue with the reasoning here...PvP is not fought against training dummies. It doesn't matter how easy it is to stand at range compared to standing in melee range, what matters is how easy/hard it is to maintain an enemy within your killzone (and you without theirs).</blockquote>Mages killzone = within 30 metersAssassin killzone = within 3 meters</blockquote>Farther than that. CA's and auto attack have a 10 meter range. And with incombat runspeed and everything,any melee class can get ontop of a mage EASILY in the 1-4 seconds it takes to cast that single spell.

Avirodar

04-17-2010, 08:00 PM

<cite>Stuckx@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Farther than that. CA's and auto attack have a 10 meter range. And with incombat runspeed and everything,any melee class can get ontop of a mage EASILY in the 1-4 seconds it takes to cast that single spell.</blockquote>Wish my Autoattack had a 10m range.

Ralpmet

04-17-2010, 08:08 PM

It does in pvp.

Novusod

04-17-2010, 08:39 PM

Charm off Mirigel raid makes auto attacks 10m. Problem is people don't know about all the items out there and think these items are part of a class.aITEM 1904386364 -1819859110:Collected Memories of a Betrayer/a

Armawk

04-17-2010, 09:09 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>I every ability every class has, and yes, an assassin can shadowstep to you, but that being said, their DPS is primarily ST vs a casters AE DPS. Whereas a caster could take out an entire group at once, an assassin can kill one target at a time.</blockquote>Please tell me how my wizard can kill 'entire groups' or even more than one person? Or my conjuror? I mean we gets some AEs just like you do but nothing with any kind of killing power. Warlocks != mages

bRz

04-17-2010, 09:21 PM

Its easy to see Darkonx's reasoning behind his arguments, the only class that had much chance to take down a crusader was a mage. Nothing else is a threat, so to appear that he is just being logical and reasonable, he wouldnt ask for a nerf to any class that already cannot kill him. Just make sure the real threats are nerfed and he is secure.

leliloe

04-17-2010, 09:29 PM

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>I every ability every class has, and yes, an assassin can shadowstep to you, but that being said, their DPS is primarily ST vs a casters AE DPS. Whereas a caster could take out an entire group at once, an assassin can kill one target at a time.</blockquote>Please tell me how my wizard can kill 'entire groups' or even more than one person? Or my conjuror? I mean we gets some AEs just like you do but nothing with any kind of killing power. Warlocks != mages</blockquote>Darkonx didn't noticed that sorcerers AE now hit for 1k to 4-5k (when you're really lucky with crit and that all debuffs landed before, and no interrupt during the 3sec casting, etc.). And we all know that a 90 player, whatever the class, has less than 5k hp. Thats how mages can kill entire groups.

leliloe

04-17-2010, 09:32 PM

<cite>bRz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its easy to see Darkonx's reasoning behind his arguments, the only class that had much chance to take down a crusader was a mage. Nothing else is a threat, so to appear that he is just being logical and reasonable, he wouldnt ask for a nerf to any class that already cannot kill him. Just make sure the real threats are nerfed and he is secure.</blockquote><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />Funny to say that, but for once i'm agree with him, but not for the same reasons. Don't nerf predators please, or you will really finish to kill BG. We need someone to do some damages, or we'll all fall alseep during games.

bks6721

04-17-2010, 10:42 PM

<cite>leliloe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>bRz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its easy to see Darkonx's reasoning behind his arguments, the only class that had much chance to take down a crusader was a mage. Nothing else is a threat, so to appear that he is just being logical and reasonable, he wouldnt ask for a nerf to any class that already cannot kill him. Just make sure the real threats are nerfed and he is secure.</blockquote><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />Funny to say that, but for once i'm agree with him, but not for the same reasons. Don't nerf predators please, or you will really finish to kill BG. We need someone to do some damages, or we'll all fall alseep during games.</blockquote>simple fix really... all scout ca's should have cast times similar to a mage. There really is no reason a scout should kill 4x faster than another t1 dps.

ntommyb

04-17-2010, 10:54 PM

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's harder than NOT having to be anywhere near them.</blockquote>Actually you are getting your logic in a twist. Let me help you out, you can thank me later.An assassin has to get in close to kill quickly, but can cast all important abilities on the move (except a couple of ranged I know but thats irrelevant).Mages have to keep outside melee distance while not moving.Mages dont 'not have to be near' they have to 'not be near' which is not at all the same thing. With the addition of the factor 'not be near and not be moving' it is substantially different.</blockquote>The point is when he's in the middle of the fight he's taking area damage and can't be nearly as effective because he's usually hitting a tank that just taunted him. Seriously Mages sitting out of taunt range picking off soft targets spreading the entire fight out has made the learning curve for pve server's in battlegrounds really big. Even now the first thing a pug does is spread out when the first thing they should do is get on top of a tank. I hope the damage doesn't take that long to recover from.

ntommyb

04-17-2010, 11:02 PM

<cite>Jjay@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>leliloe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>bRz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its easy to see Darkonx's reasoning behind his arguments, the only class that had much chance to take down a crusader was a mage. Nothing else is a threat, so to appear that he is just being logical and reasonable, he wouldnt ask for a nerf to any class that already cannot kill him. Just make sure the real threats are nerfed and he is secure.</blockquote><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />Funny to say that, but for once i'm agree with him, but not for the same reasons. Don't nerf predators please, or you will really finish to kill BG. We need someone to do some damages, or we'll all fall alseep during games.</blockquote>simple fix really... all scout ca's should have cast times similar to a mage. There really is no reason a scout should kill 4x faster than another t1 dps.</blockquote>Seriously?? I've never seen more [Removed for Content] people begging for completely ridiculous nerfs to other classes. A general rule in the MMO's I've played is to ask for you class to be buffed not the other class to be nerfed. Unless you play a summoner stop complaining every other caster has devastating effects that don't even do damage. I seriously heard an enchanter complain about their damage WOW enchanter's are one of the most op pvp classes out there when they're grouped. Every class has a use, figure it out, L2P, and stop whining

Aleste

04-17-2010, 11:25 PM

Simple fix. Increase mage dmg by 25% make all cc harder to resist. And reduce sorcs surviveability. I think what really made ppl mad was not only the oneshotting but when you made it to the mage you couldnt kill him. I dont mind diying to a well played mage i hated diying to a mage standing in the same spot pressing 1 button.

ntommyb

04-18-2010, 12:30 AM

<cite>Aleste wrote:</cite><blockquote>Simple fix. Increase mage dmg by 25% make all cc harder to resist. And reduce sorcs surviveability. I think what really made ppl mad was not only the oneshotting but when you made it to the mage you couldnt kill him. I dont mind diying to a well played mage i hated diying to a mage standing in the same spot pressing 1 button.</blockquote>Making CC harder to resist would break this game, that's more devastating than damage. And oneshotting breaks the game

Aleste

04-18-2010, 12:37 AM

There are so many ways to counter cc it would not break the game. Cc was a huge part of pvp in kos and it was no where game breaking. With pots potions procs signets ect.... and immunities. Come on.

Aleste

04-18-2010, 12:45 AM

Posting from my cell so sorry for x2 posts but... cc is a huge part of playing a mage. I was and am against the just burn it type of pvp alot of ppl are looking for. A mage should be mez/root do some dmg, back up to max range repeat. Not just throw spells and one shot or sit there and take a beating. Glass cannon cloth armor kind of indicates a kite style in pvp.

Blaidd

04-18-2010, 08:25 AM

<cite>ntommyb wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jjay@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>leliloe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>bRz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its easy to see Darkonx's reasoning behind his arguments, the only class that had much chance to take down a crusader was a mage. Nothing else is a threat, so to appear that he is just being logical and reasonable, he wouldnt ask for a nerf to any class that already cannot kill him. Just make sure the real threats are nerfed and he is secure.</blockquote><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />Funny to say that, but for once i'm agree with him, but not for the same reasons. Don't nerf predators please, or you will really finish to kill BG. We need someone to do some damages, or we'll all fall alseep during games.</blockquote>simple fix really... all scout ca's should have cast times similar to a mage. There really is no reason a scout should kill 4x faster than another t1 dps.</blockquote>Seriously?? I've never seen more [Removed for Content] people begging for completely ridiculous nerfs to other classes. A general rule in the MMO's I've played is to ask for you class to be buffed not the other class to be nerfed. Unless you play a summoner stop complaining every other caster has devastating effects that don't even do damage. I seriously heard an enchanter complain about their damage WOW enchanter's are one of the most op pvp classes out there when they're grouped. Every class has a use, figure it out, L2P, and stop whining </blockquote>You just hit the main reason for the post. Everyone cried nerf for casters and it was applied breaking the BG's, now Predators are the huge dps and killing people in what feels like 1 shot so its their turn.Ideally the nerf should never have happened as it was only the poorly geared or played that ever got killed in 1 nuke (though the pre buffs cast by a caster are never taken into account like freehand sorcery and the debuffs). Predators were more cautious before the nerf as there were people out there that were a risk to them now I can nuke the hell out of an assassin and will die before the 1st spell or certainly the 2nd gets off. Sorcs defences cost a huge investment in AA to survive (I personally dont use Mana shield) and I have spent over 30 aa in raising my survivability.Debuffs are getting resisted so countering all the godmode abilities tanks get is pretty much pointless and cartainly for sk that was the only way to get past DM and their CC immunity and stoneskins. Tanks dont worry about preds as their mit gives them much greater survivability so preds choose softer targets. Mit isnt much of an option to increase vs those (unless there is some +20k physical mit jewelry out trhere I dont know about).People didnt think before calling a nerf on casters and hitting them with the nerf bat has just shown how OP some other classes are that were keeping their heads down and hoping to be overlooked.

Writer Cal

04-18-2010, 09:15 AM

Said nerf was a bug fix. If casters need a boost, then they need a boost. Basing caster damage off of a bug is idiotic. Perhaps it's crap that caster damage is now low since the bug was fixed, but it was a fricking bug. To leave it as it was is stupid. Better to fix the bug, and then boost caster damage appropriately, by class, than leave balance up to an "Oops!" mistake.

Dorsan

04-18-2010, 11:03 AM

Things as they were before the bugfix were not ok. I was killing people with bewilderment and first tick of bloodcoil on a necro and it sucked badly. However I am now doing like 10-20% of my dps before the fix, which makes me think that they fixed a bug but introduced another one somewhere.

Orthureon

04-18-2010, 11:14 AM

<cite>Ysbryd@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I do find ridiculous is the fact your saying casters were overpowered yet your avatar implies your an sk. If a caster was killing you you need to delete your char and start again......in wow</blockquote>Um... casters, healers and other crusaders were the only thing that could kill crusaders. Any mage that is worth his salt can keep an SK at bay and eventually kill him. Also, before the change my chances against a Wizard/Warlock were about 30%, against Enchanters 50/50, Conjurors about 75% (thank god for DA lol).I honestly think they need to nerf crusaders a bit -- now more than ever -- since they are nigh unstoppable

Piccolo

04-18-2010, 02:12 PM

problem with predators is all thier proc's proc on the first hit. so you just dont stand a chance unless your a plate. i would be running somewhere then im dead. i look at my combat log and i got hit 8 times, most for well over 2k. and im in 80 mc bg gear. predator proc's should be nerfed imo..

Kota

04-18-2010, 04:43 PM

<cite>Ysbryd@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ideally the nerf should never have happened as it was only the poorly geared or played that ever got killed in 1 nuke (though the pre buffs cast by a caster are never taken into account like freehand sorcery and the debuffs). Predators were more cautious before the nerf as there were people out there that were a risk to them now I can nuke the hell out of an assassin and will die before the 1st spell or certainly the 2nd gets off. Sorcs defences cost a huge investment in AA to survive (I personally dont use Mana shield) and I have spent over 30 aa in raising my survivability.</blockquote>i got 1 shotted in full bg gear a few times tbh.

bRz

04-19-2010, 01:39 AM

<cite>leliloe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>bRz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its easy to see Darkonx's reasoning behind his arguments, the only class that had much chance to take down a crusader was a mage. Nothing else is a threat, so to appear that he is just being logical and reasonable, he wouldnt ask for a nerf to any class that already cannot kill him. Just make sure the real threats are nerfed and he is secure.</blockquote><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />Funny to say that, but for once i'm agree with him, but not for the same reasons. Don't nerf predators please, or you will really finish to kill BG. We need someone to do some damages, or we'll all fall alseep during games.</blockquote>I absolutely agree with you here, most bg matches now are complete snooze fests considering survivability is so high now, pvp has just turned into a power fight since no one is dying.

Deathba

04-19-2010, 02:12 AM

Won't speak for assassins since i betrayed to a ranger @ lvl 85 (yeah i know GASP assassin > ranger [Removed for Content]?)Here's some quick tips about why *RANGERS* are not OP in BG's(To be fair, i dont consider myself a "pro" ranger, but i do decently in bg's) but i do know what the class does and doesnt have.A) No ranged stifle, No ranged interupt (aka, its a shot for shot fight against a caster, one which you will usually lose) -Because most casters have some knockdown/stun on spells that give them a way bigger hand, or lifetaps for necrosB) At range, is only capable of achieving 60-70% of the characters total POTENTIAL damage output (by ignoring like 7 melee range only combat arts) -Casters DO NOT have to worry about ANYTHING like this.C) At range, or at melee... rangers have extremely low survivability. (Yes Chain armor and a shield help....kind of) But compared to: -Wiz/Locks: Manashield GG Necros: Lifetaps/Fear Conjuror: 9hit stoneskin (or somethin like that?) Chanter: Stuns/DazeThose are the key points without dragging this list on to infinity and beyond.(PS: Ranged combat arts also have HUGE cooldowns... any spell that does 2-3k damage has a 1-2 minute cooldown timer, we have 1 on a 5 second timer, 1 on a 15 second timer, and 1 on a 30 second, everything else is 45s plus)

overmonk2

04-19-2010, 03:18 AM

<cite>bRz wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>leliloe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>bRz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its easy to see Darkonx's reasoning behind his arguments, the only class that had much chance to take down a crusader was a mage. Nothing else is a threat, so to appear that he is just being logical and reasonable, he wouldnt ask for a nerf to any class that already cannot kill him. Just make sure the real threats are nerfed and he is secure.</blockquote><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />Funny to say that, but for once i'm agree with him, but not for the same reasons. Don't nerf predators please, or you will really finish to kill BG. We need someone to do some damages, or we'll all fall alseep during games.</blockquote>I absolutely agree with you here, most bg matches now are complete snooze fests considering survivability is so high now, pvp has just turned into a power fight since no one is dying.</blockquote>100% agree as well... just thinking about it is putting me to sleep.

Darkonx

04-19-2010, 03:33 AM

<cite>overmonk2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>bRz wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>leliloe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>bRz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its easy to see Darkonx's reasoning behind his arguments, the only class that had much chance to take down a crusader was a mage. Nothing else is a threat, so to appear that he is just being logical and reasonable, he wouldnt ask for a nerf to any class that already cannot kill him. Just make sure the real threats are nerfed and he is secure.</blockquote><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />Funny to say that, but for once i'm agree with him, but not for the same reasons. Don't nerf predators please, or you will really finish to kill BG. We need someone to do some damages, or we'll all fall alseep during games.</blockquote>I absolutely agree with you here, most bg matches now are complete snooze fests considering survivability is so high now, pvp has just turned into a power fight since no one is dying.</blockquote>100% agree as well... just thinking about it is putting me to sleep.</blockquote>Abilitys that are timed well together can still kill people.

Valind

04-19-2010, 08:17 AM

<cite>Deathbane@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>A) No ranged stifle, No ranged interupt (aka, its a shot for shot fight against a caster, one which you will usually lose) -Because most casters have some knockdown/stun on spells that give them a way bigger hand, or lifetaps for necrosB) At range, is only capable of achieving 60-70% of the characters total POTENTIAL damage output (by ignoring like 7 melee range only combat arts) -Casters DO NOT have to worry about ANYTHING like this.C) At range, or at melee... rangers have extremely low survivability. (Yes Chain armor and a shield help....kind of) But compared to: -Wiz/Locks: Manashield GG Necros: Lifetaps/Fear Conjuror: 9hit stoneskin (or somethin like that?) Chanter: Stuns/Daze</blockquote>You have no idea.A) There are dozens of items which proc stiffles stuns etc. They will all trigger from ranged auto-attack, which happens to have a VERY high chance to trigger things.B) Casters get melee auto-attack as well, by your logic, when they are at range, they aren't auto-attacking which isnt proccing things. They also aren't using their PBAoEs which for most mages are their biggest hitters.C) I'll give you the Wizlocks, but the rest? No. Chanters can be completely neutralised by clicking 1 button. Even if you don't happen to have that button, you can counter all of their CC including mez with a few clickies. Fear can be countered with a potion, is highly resistable and snaps if you even break wind in their direction. And Lifetaps? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. 9 hit stoneskin will evaporate within 2 rounds of auto-attack damage. i.e 4 seconds at the most.Having said all that. I do agree that RANGERS are not OP. The procs on the ranger's (and everyone else's) gear though? Those are OP. I was fighting a ranger on my tank earlier, I saw auto-attacks critting fo 300-400 damage, but after every auto-attack there were up to 9 (!!!!) procs that all hit for 500-2000. Procs are doing more damage than the ranger was.

Cigam

04-19-2010, 11:50 AM

Rift... Fusion... couple of others I can think of off the top of my head that requires you to be close.Little off subject... Did they fix manashield yet? I specd away from it cause once hit from a zerker would put me at empty power so it saved me one second of life LOL

bks6721

04-19-2010, 01:10 PM

blah.. manashield still wipes power in 1 or 2 hits

Death Clown

04-19-2010, 01:17 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>Charm off Mirigel raid makes auto attacks 10m. Problem is people don't know about all the items out there and think these items are part of a class.aITEM 1904386364 -1819859110:Collected Memories of a Betrayer/a</blockquote>Ya, they take the swashie Reach away form them just to put in the Mirigel charm.

Xeirus

04-19-2010, 01:31 PM

You can say that again. Lately I've tried the surviability route on my conjy this is a solo spec with my tank pet, 2 speced stoneskins, runes of geomancy (chance to proc a stoneskin on dmg 10%). I have no chance to live if i am not either being healed or a tank is not taunting every melee there. This does not even make it close in a vs melee fight.It's been frustrating after the fix to keep scouts and melee off me because roots, stuns, snares are also so easily resisted and melee become immune after already used recently. They easily break through these then procced to beat the stuffings out of you dps is horrible even with dispels, pet procing pact to debuff elemental etc. Even with 3 stoneskins absorbing 25k+ dmg I am dead within 1-5 seconds after reaching me. This is also with a tank pet taunting them while running towards me. My dps is horrid now compared to what it used to be and in almost every format of BG scouts/tanks now lead the dps boards there are some mages that can still make it to the top seen couple coeccers, wiz/warlocks do it. But why again should tanks be up there? Please start to reduce melee dmg add in more resists for melee (peircing, crushing, slash). Can we also get dmg and resist calculations for this also that mean something.Second if you do have somewhat equal groups it is now long drawn out melee fights going back and forth and who will run out of power first.I've really stoped playing my conjy in BG and gone back to healer, illy (power and buffs still mean alot), assisan.Just my 2 cents.

Sydares

04-20-2010, 02:49 AM

Uh... seriously?Look, Assassins I might buy, but Rangers? We're the very definition of glass cannon. Want to kill a ranger? Get in melee range. They fall over. Believe me, I know.

Shorcon

04-20-2010, 04:52 AM

Shorcon

04-20-2010, 04:57 AM

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's harder than NOT having to be anywhere near them.</blockquote>Actually you are getting your logic in a twist. Let me help you out, you can thank me later.An assassin has to get in close to kill quickly, but can cast all important abilities on the move (except a couple of ranged I know but thats irrelevant).Mages have to keep outside melee distance while not moving.Mages dont 'not have to be near' they have to 'not be near' which is not at all the same thing. With the addition of the factor 'not be near and not be moving' it is substantially different.</blockquote>Stay a little closer to the tank. Id taunt em off ya. They are not op. maybe op in a 1on1 with a mage. BG isnt for 1v1. sure arena is coming soon. 1v1 2v2 etc. save this fight for then.

Aleste

04-20-2010, 11:37 AM

<cite>Roach@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>problem with predators is all thier proc's proc on the first hit. so you just dont stand a chance unless your a plate.i would be running somewhere then im dead. i look at my combat log and i got hit 8 times, most for well over 2k. and im in 80 mc bg gear. predator proc's should be nerfed imo..</blockquote>Lol running from a pred. Thats one good way to use back attacks!

ailen

04-20-2010, 11:44 AM

<cite>ntommyb wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite><blockquote>Simple fix. Increase mage dmg by 25% make all cc harder to resist. And reduce sorcs surviveability. I think what really made ppl mad was not only the oneshotting but when you made it to the mage you couldnt kill him. I dont mind diying to a well played mage i hated diying to a mage standing in the same spot pressing 1 button.</blockquote>Making CC harder to resist would break this game, that's more devastating than damage. And oneshotting breaks the game</blockquote>25% wouldn't bring them anywhere near what they were before. Right now Sorcerers are doing waaay too little damage.I want to argue that Potency will play a big role in making them powerful again, but I can't go there. If you don't have some "base" amount of damage output without insane amounts of gear then that's just stupid. Gear should be an added "bonus" to damage, not the bulk of it.25% would be just fine, I think the dude even went too low... in a few weeks they'll add the 15% damage reduction they put on spell casters years ago and it should raise all the damage up, with gains that will be more than 15% because of the way potency works. With that note, I have to say I heard a lot of laughs out of the sorcerers that were tearing up people/groups but being a melee class player as its more my style, I wasn't laughing at all. I pose this question: "HOW DOES IT FEEL TO PLAY A BROKEN GAME ON THE OTHER END?"<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> :::

EasternKing

04-20-2010, 11:52 AM

<cite>Jjay@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>leliloe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>bRz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its easy to see Darkonx's reasoning behind his arguments, the only class that had much chance to take down a crusader was a mage. Nothing else is a threat, so to appear that he is just being logical and reasonable, he wouldnt ask for a nerf to any class that already cannot kill him. Just make sure the real threats are nerfed and he is secure.</blockquote><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />Funny to say that, but for once i'm agree with him, but not for the same reasons. Don't nerf predators please, or you will really finish to kill BG. We need someone to do some damages, or we'll all fall alseep during games.</blockquote>simple fix really... all scout ca's should have cast times similar to a mage. There really is no reason a scout should kill 4x faster than another t1 dps.</blockquote>sure that is fine, if they up the damage, reduce the recast, and let is try again in 10secs time if it miss's right?