Tanks can Taunt? Sorta...

[EverRude]

<p>I posted a lot of this as a reply in another post. I'm afraid that all of the resist fix backlash will cause it to go ignored in that thread. I feel this idea deserves discussion even if I am way off base. Tanks are intended to be the group's defender which is why they get so much mitigation, health, temp survival buffs, death saves... Etc. They don't get all that just to be the ultimate flag carrier. In PvE THE TANK IS the group's physical mitigation. The only reason non- tanks have any physical mitigation is for soloing, adds and AE's. In BG PvP this is true as well but because few people are playing in a tight group and the enemy aren't programmed bots, it's not working properly. BG's right now are just unbalanced deathmatches with flags for tanks to hold. Even if the caster stays close to his tank he'll still get hit by enemy that are smart enough to stay out of the tank's taunt range. It's awesome that taunt works in pvp. But it's programmed to apply to dumb npc's that can't decide for themselves that staying out of taunt range is a good idea. Players can do that, making taunt useless against classes with range attacks. So players tend to stray away from the tanks because the tank is no protection from range classes targetting them. Sure tanks could try and target every enemy caster and scout in the zone currently attacking his group but it would be impossible. Few tanks have the ability to taunt many targets outside a single enemy group. None have the ability to stop a ranger 45 meters away from killing anyone he chooses. Casters aren't being killed because their physical mit sucks. They're being killed because their tank cannot, or will not, do his job. Tank taunts should protect all their group members within their taunt range. All their taunts not just the AE ones and not just enemies within the range of the tank. This would mean Guards are just as good of a protector for the group as a SK, Zerker, and pallies just without the dps or heals. If an enemy has a group member targetted, they should loose target if the member is within the range of their tank's taunt. This would help protect players with less physical mitigation the way the group game is designed to work. Provided you play as a group rather than a team of Rambo's. If a caster goes solo then they get what little protection their cloth gives. Giving tanks better taunts in pvp BG would also have the benefit of having groups stay together. If a tank's taunt only helps his group members it won't help you to follow just any tank you find. You need to be with a tank in your group. And ofcourse it would help if the match maker actually formed real groups. I may be wrong about how taunts works in pvp so please correct me if I am.</p>

[Ambrin]

<p>I think a big issue (at least for my monk) is that people expect me to be able to glue groups of players to me like some of the other tanks can. Basically I have 3 "regular taunts":</p><p>* 1x Single target -> 7s reuse, 3s duration</p><p>* 1x Encounter (only taunts people in the same group as the person I have targeted) -> 17s reuse, 3s duration</p><p>* 1x Single Target Procced Taunt (unless it was changed, it does not even target lock) -> 10ppm</p><p>* An assortment of "snap taunts" with long reuse times, none being encounter or AE / encounter (bruisers do have 2 AE / encounter snap taunts though)</p><p>I can use these whenever they come off reuse, but I still don't have a lot of taunting power. The other big thing is that the majority of times I hit these taunts (all master level) I see either "immune" or "resisted" pop up above my target. I would very much love to get something that would let me hold the enemy teams attention to me so I could better do my job as a tank. Even if you made all my taunts in encounter or even AE I still would not have enough taunt power to get everyone to attack me like some of the other tanks (especially those warriors with those long duration taunt locks whenever you damage them). The best I can do is hit a taunt and FD so the enemy can't target anything for 3s I can taunt lock my target.</p><p>I would very much love if all fighters had access to some kind of reactive taunt-lock mechanic like warriors have. I think this would be the biggest boon to tanks actually fulfilling their roles as tanks. Whether this is some new skill, or item that is fighter (and even PvP) only doesn't really matter in my opinion. There are a number of items that do proc hate that can help out a fighter, but nearly enough to fully allowing for the amount of taunting required to actually be able to fully fulfill the role of tank.</p>

[Yimway]

<p>Critical taunts should last 6s.</p>

[bartb]

<p>As an sk the taunt has been taken off grave sacrement and hateful respite also the buff we use to proc threat off melle incoming damage is gone in pvp, leaves me with 2 taunts basically my green group taunt locks target for 3 secs and has a 17second reuse and is curable and my single taunt, so when people say tanks aint taunting they really need to go try to play one for themselves , i think most tanks try to protect the group as much as we can o i know some are fully dps geared and run about like rambo trying to kill folks.</p>

[EverRude]

<p>Since there is no hate list for PvP, hate procs do nothing. Not even the AA ones some classes get. Only taunts that force a target change and even better a target lock do anything. But right now those only apply to the one target you have, their group members, or enemies within a certain range. It does nothing to protect your group from enemies outside that range. I have not yet played any of my tanks in BG but as a dirge and especially a ranger I have learned to keep enemy tanks at range. I have certainly never noiced my guys being immune to taunt effects. Not sure whether they are resisting a lot or not. Still even if you as a monk if you were not resisted your group will still be killed by enemy outside your taunt range or by ae's.Little you could do about the ae's (except for blockers some tanks have) but they could change the taunt system to be more useful in BG's atleast.</p>

[EverRude]

<p>I know that most tanks want to do their job but their taunts are simply not helping. If SOE wants to make BG about group PvP they need to do something that would allow tanks to grab and hold enemy. Casters and other range classes can avoid taunts and are simply shooting fish in a barrel.The only defence the "fish" have are to scatter and try to solo their attackers. That leaves them vulnerable to the non-range dps that now can attack them since they are out of tank range.</p>

[Timjan]

<p> Taunts have worked the way they do in pvp for many years now and I see no reason to change them. Players dont work the same way as NPC and thats what make pvp fun. If you have truble tanking in pvp, talk to experienced tank from a pvp server and get some advice.</p>

[EverRude]

<p>As a ranger I love playing Ganak. I usually play defence and often I'm alone. Since the resist fix the battle has changed. I stand on the upper balcony wall and watch the battle take place in the middle. It always happens to same way when 2 roughly equal forces meet. Tanks square off in the middle taunting each other. Healers close by but usually at max healing range. Dps and utilty-dps-wannabees circle the tanks killing each other and trying to kill the healers. It's rarely the tanks defending the healers and more often the dps killing the attacker. Dps dies and respawns then runs to rejoin the tanks still fighting in the middle. It stays this way till the healers are killed. If there are several healers this center battle can take place for nearly the entire match. Ofcourse the usual straggler attempts to take the flag and is often often killed by the few defenders. It's impressive to watch. I like killing the stragglers for the flags or the occasional fighter in the middle that strayed into my range. I do join the fray but only if someone else is on the balcony. I wonder if this is the battle that is intended or an effect of reduced mage dps and inadquate tank taunts? Pre-resist fix the team with the most mages merely rolled over the one without. Now noone has the dps to roll over anyone. So the battle stalls. Dps still kills at will and tanks serve only as a nuisance to dps and as flag carriers. It just all happens at a much slower rate. If tanks had better taunts I believe the tanks would be the first to die. The first team to loose their tank would be finshed. It would be faster than the dps circle jerk but less one sided than the mage rollover. In short. A true group vs group fight. </p>

[Timjan]

<p>It sounds like you are bad coordinated and have bad tanks. Try to work as a team, pick a main assist and communicate. I play a healer and I have no problem surviving and keep my group alive if I have a tank in my team who knows how to play. But if I have a bad tank things are aot harder.</p><p>There's nothing wrong with the way taunts work at the moment, people just have to adapt and understand the difference between pve and pvp.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Timjan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>There's nothing wrong with the way taunts work at the moment, people just have to adapt and understand the difference between pve and pvp.</p></blockquote><p>Says the person that can't explain exactly how they do work.  Very wise you are.</p>

[Timjan]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Timjan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>There's nothing wrong with the way taunts work at the moment, people just have to adapt and understand the difference between pve and pvp.</p></blockquote><p>Says the person that can't explain exactly how they do work.  Very wise you are.</p></blockquote><p>If you're too lazy to click the pvp box on your taunts -> <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=476316">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=476316</a></p>

[ntommyb]

<p>As a healer I always always know where my tank is and I stick with him.  I've pvped for years and even when I played a scout I knew where the tank was.  I start taking damage, I detaunt and run to him.  It works every time.  Ranged damage is the tanks responsibility to take care of if its a problem, most of the time group heals and a spot heal here and there can take care of it.  Melee damage classes will follow the soft classes where ever they go, if the soft classes are following the tank into the ranged damage classes then they're not any problem. </p><p>Taunting and tanks in general are what I believe set apart eq2 from every other pvp game I've played.  This mechanic is awesome and I'm shocked it hasn't been copied.  I've seen well geared tanks in good groups lock down 4 to 6 groups against 1 and I couldn't keep my target off the guy no matter what I did.  Theres a huge disparity between the great tanks and bad ones but even a bad tank is better than no tank imo.</p><p>Once everybody really figures out how to pvp you'll find out that a group with no tank vs a group with a tank is a loss quicker than a group without a healer vs a group with one</p><p>Tanks are the difference, and btw... just so you know, nobody cares how much damage they parse so throw a taunt in that rotation now and then guys. </p>

[spudsmckenzie2]

<p>taunts are pretty decent where they are at imo...usually the best defense againist a ranger or caster standing out of range is to send one of your swashies or brigs after them and take care of the problem that way. just my 2 cents though....</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Timjan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you're too lazy to click the pvp box on your taunts -> <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=476316">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=476316</a></p></blockquote><p>Yes, and the issue with taunts in pvp is they don't improve from crit chance or crit mod.  So I get the same effect off a taunt with 0 crit chance and no crit mod as I do with 100 crit chance and 80 crit mod.</p><p>They're effectiveness should be affected by gear and specialization, which they are not now. </p><p>The only thing that appears to affect taunt effectiveness in pvp is aggression and spell quality, and this only affects the resist chance, not the effect.</p><p>I'd like to see crit and crit bonus affect the duration of taunts, so that fighters have meaning to their gear progression that matches their core role.  This of course would be mitigated by crit mit, etc,etc.</p><p>The system of any taunt that lands locks for 3 seconds is rather bland and not very deep in regaurds to individual player progression.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>bartb wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As an sk the taunt has been taken off grave sacrement and hateful respite also the buff we use to proc threat off melle incoming damage is gone in pvp, leaves me with 2 taunts basically my green group taunt locks target for 3 secs and has a 17second reuse and is curable and my single taunt, so when people say tanks aint taunting they really need to go try to play one for themselves , i think most tanks try to protect the group as much as we can o i know some are fully dps geared and run about like rambo trying to kill folks.</p></blockquote><p>Clearly you have no clue what your Myth proc does</p>

[Meirril]

<p>I think the main issue here isn't that taunts arn't effective, it is that new BG players arn't use to the new paradim.</p><p>So you think that ranger hitting you at 45m is out of taunt range? No problem. Move.</p><p>Yeah, that's right Mr can't cast spells while moving. Loose all your DPS for 5 seconds and move to where that ranger has to take a risk to keep attacking you. Good healers/dps MOVE when they start getting attacked and they get CLOSER TO THE TANK. As a DPS there is nothing more irritating than getting a healer down to the yellow/red and getting taunted off by their tank. I just wasted a bunch of DPS because by the time I can get off of that tank the healer has managed to undue everything I've accomplished so far.</p><p>Hopefully your tank is on the ball enough to taunt the guy bombing you. Maybe you get lucky and the tank uses his encounter taunt and it hits the ranger who's following you. Maybe not, but at least your doing the smart thing by not just standing there waiting to die.</p><p>I understand that mages need to stand still to do DPS, but being a static target means your also easy prey. Mix it up and move while your best spells refresh.</p>

[Horgana]

<p>"Taunts" in PvE and "Taunts" in BattleGrounds are very different - you do not build up hate with your opponent - the "taunts" in BattleGrounds cause your target to lock to you for a duration, e.g. a spell that may cause you to increase hate with a mob will cause "annoy" for example, forces target to change target to caster for 3.0s. Dunno wny people say "dont you know what this does" to people who clearly don't. Bit like taunting them really. They have no idea whats going on.</p>

[Horgana]

<p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think the main issue here isn't that taunts arn't effective, it is that new BG players arn't use to the new paradim.</p><p>So you think that ranger hitting you at 45m is out of taunt range? No problem. Move.</p><p>Yeah, that's right Mr can't cast spells while moving. <strong>Loose all your DPS</strong> for 5 seconds and move to where that ranger has to take a risk to keep attacking you. Good healers/dps MOVE when they start getting attacked and they get CLOSER TO THE TANK. As a DPS there is nothing more irritating than getting a healer down to the yellow/red and getting taunted off by their tank. I just wasted a bunch of DPS because by the time I can get off of that tank the healer has managed to undue everything I've accomplished so far.</p><p>Hopefully your tank is on the ball enough to taunt the guy bombing you. Maybe you get lucky and the tank uses his encounter taunt and it hits the ranger who's following you. Maybe not, but at least your doing the smart thing by not just standing there waiting to die.</p><p>I understand that mages need to stand still to do DPS, but being a static target means your also easy prey. Mix it up and move while your best spells refresh.</p></blockquote><p>Loose all your DPS? "Loose", as in not fitting very tight? Sorry, I don't know what you mean. Maybe "Lose" was the word you were looking for here. Read back what you wrote. It says "Loose". My jeans are too loose (OMG I used "too" in the correct context too! OMG I did it again!). Somehow the meaning of "Loose" has been lost, and been replaced with the meaning of "Lose". Losers <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Kota]

if they make taunts any better it will essentially be a pve encounter. taunts are fine the way they are imo. yes they get resisted sometimes, and they have range limitations, not hard to deal with tbh.

[Taldier]

<p>Taunts are fine.</p><p>The only tanks who cant hold consistent hate on an entire group are a brawlers and thats perfectly fine.  We tank differently, bouncing agro around, making people drop targets and keeping anyone from taking damage for to long.</p><p>If you make taunts better a well played plate tank would almost never lose agro, and they are supposed to.  Pvp isnt tank and spank like pve.</p><p>If ranged dps is killing people:- Have your ranged dps kill them.- Have a second tank go after them.- Move behind terrain.</p><p>We dont need to completely alter pvp gameplay after years of tweaking.  We need pvp mechanics to get back to where they were before everything got thrown off a cliff and then the devs can do some of the minor balancing that was still needed.</p>

[ntommyb]

<p><cite>Horgana@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think the main issue here isn't that taunts arn't effective, it is that new BG players arn't use to the new paradim.</p><p>So you think that ranger hitting you at 45m is out of taunt range? No problem. Move.</p><p>Yeah, that's right Mr can't cast spells while moving. <strong>Loose all your DPS</strong> for 5 seconds and move to where that ranger has to take a risk to keep attacking you. Good healers/dps MOVE when they start getting attacked and they get CLOSER TO THE TANK. As a DPS there is nothing more irritating than getting a healer down to the yellow/red and getting taunted off by their tank. I just wasted a bunch of DPS because by the time I can get off of that tank the healer has managed to undue everything I've accomplished so far.</p><p>Hopefully your tank is on the ball enough to taunt the guy bombing you. Maybe you get lucky and the tank uses his encounter taunt and it hits the ranger who's following you. Maybe not, but at least your doing the smart thing by not just standing there waiting to die.</p><p>I understand that mages need to stand still to do DPS, but being a static target means your also easy prey. Mix it up and move while your best spells refresh.</p></blockquote><p>Loose all your DPS? "Loose", as in not fitting very tight? Sorry, I don't know what you mean. Maybe "Lose" was the word you were looking for here. Read back what you wrote. It says "Loose". My jeans are too loose (OMG I used "too" in the correct context too! OMG I did it again!). Somehow the meaning of "Loose" has been lost, and been replaced with the meaning of "Lose". Losers <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>you can set something loose mr grammer police or you can loose arrows for example just like you can loose something thats held back</p>

[Raznor2]

<p>I've ran into plenty of tanks that are a real bugger to get away from in order to attack the healers or dps.  I've also been well out of melee range and still been snagged by a tank's taunt, it may not reach a wizard or ranger at max range but taunt range isn't too shabby.  I disagree with your assessment, taunts work very well in pvp and having a ranged dps able to pick off your group members is a valid way to get around a tank taunting everyone to him. </p><p>~Raznor</p>

[Vlahkmaak]

<p>Taunts work fine in PVP.  As a guardian I find it is my job to jump out there at the ranger and snap him/her onto me for a sec - When I move my grp moves - when my grp moves the enemy moves closer to that ranger and then my next encounter will grab him too.   SKs can already taunt you from across the zone.  Taunts work just fine in pvp.  Many blue server tanks just have to learn the new pvp paradigm of their taunt and save uses.  For instance - moderate the healer in pvp not the dps. </p><p>The purpose of the taunt, unlike PVE, is to control the flow of fighting - disrupt the enemy - you taunt them onto you - they either waste that big hit on you or esc off and save it and try to re-aquire a softer target.  Your taunt has done its job - 3 secs of locking the dps or healer onto you and 2-3 secs for them to re-aquire their target = so they use prev pvptarget key - you hit your encounter taunt or you intercde the mage. </p><p>Taunt and press esc.  Pick a new target.  Taunt and press esc.  Shield bash healer.  Taunt and esc.  Kick healer.  Taunt and esc.  Lock a dps onto you.  Ensure your grp is not lazy assisting the tank.  Choose a rogue or bard to be the assist.  Tanks should be bouncing aggro and making the enemy re-aqure targets.  Of course locking targets onto you as a tank is only good if you have good healers with you.  Even with resists almost back to normal taunt locking to much DPS onto you all at once can be disasterous.  Bounce the aggro - do not lock the aggro unless you have very good healers on you otherwise your gonna get burned fast. 3 seconds is a long time in PVP.  Taunts work just fine imo.</p><p>.</p>

[Yimway]

<p>I think most are missing the point.</p><p>If you want to 'taunt better' there isn't anything in game to work on to earn to really do that.  Besides master taunts, which comeon, that took 3 days to get.</p><p>crit chance, crit bonus, potency, etc should affect taunts in some manner, so that in getting gear fighters can improve their core role.</p><p>As it is, the only segmentation on the ability to taunt is player skill, which is static, and doesn't present anything to 'work on'</p><p>All other archtypes have an itemization progression to get better at their core role. Its currently missing IMO for pvp tanks. </p>

[Kota]

taunts are fine as is. aggro in pvp isn't a number, it's a yes or no question. no need to complicate it. it will only get messed up. afaik aggression skill helps resistability of taunts. work on that.

[Vlahkmaak]

<p>I get what your saying - I just think a longer taunt time is not a good idea.  This would make crusaders even more OP in PVP.  Healer locked onto a tank for 6 seconds being forced to only use grp heals (small issue for a warden - more detrimental for an inqy) means death of the grp.  I do not see this change benefiting the warrior community.  We can do our taunting job effectivelly atm.  I really don't think we want to make tanks more magnetic than they currently are.  Now - if you want to add a 1k nuke to any taunt that crits I'd be down with that <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Itemization for me, as a pvp tank, has always been about resists, ward/heal proc gear/ mit gear/ de-aggro clear target gear/ mutegenic burst type gear so that when I do taunt I take less damage and force people onto me or cleared targets. </p><p>I completely see where you are coming from Atan, I just am not sure we really want to be locking peple down for 6 seconds at a time esp with real CC classes having durations reduced to 6-8 secs.  I think were we to have crit taunts locking people for 6 seconds the healer and DPS community would scream boistrously for taunt to be given immunity like roots/stuns/ fears and then the warrior community would really be in trouble.  Just my opinion though.</p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>Horgana@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think the main issue here isn't that taunts arn't effective, it is that new BG players arn't use to the new paradim.</p><p>So you think that ranger hitting you at 45m is out of taunt range? No problem. Move.</p><p>Yeah, that's right Mr can't cast spells while moving. <strong>Loose all your DPS</strong> for 5 seconds and move to where that ranger has to take a risk to keep attacking you. Good healers/dps MOVE when they start getting attacked and they get CLOSER TO THE TANK. As a DPS there is nothing more irritating than getting a healer down to the yellow/red and getting taunted off by their tank. I just wasted a bunch of DPS because by the time I can get off of that tank the healer has managed to undue everything I've accomplished so far.</p><p>Hopefully your tank is on the ball enough to taunt the guy bombing you. Maybe you get lucky and the tank uses his encounter taunt and it hits the ranger who's following you. Maybe not, but at least your doing the smart thing by not just standing there waiting to die.</p><p>I understand that mages need to stand still to do DPS, but being a static target means your also easy prey. Mix it up and move while your best spells refresh.</p></blockquote><p>Loose all your DPS? "Loose", as in not fitting very tight? Sorry, I don't know what you mean. Maybe "Lose" was the word you were looking for here. Read back what you wrote. It says "Loose". My jeans are too loose (OMG I used "too" in the correct context too! OMG I did it again!). Somehow the meaning of "Loose" has been lost, and been replaced with the meaning of "Lose". Losers <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>/golfclap well played sir. And your point?</p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think most are missing the point.</p><p>If you want to 'taunt better' there isn't anything in game to work on to earn to really do that.  Besides master taunts, which comeon, that took 3 days to get.</p><p>crit chance, crit bonus, potency, etc should affect taunts in some manner, so that in getting gear fighters can improve their core role.</p><p>As it is, the only segmentation on the ability to taunt is player skill, which is static, and doesn't present anything to 'work on'</p><p>All other archtypes have an itemization progression to get better at their core role. Its currently missing IMO for pvp tanks. </p></blockquote><p>Right now taunts are ballanced on those static abilities that your talking about. If taunts became non-static through itemization then the devs would need to account for the starting value, the highly available gear, and the hard to aquire gear. In effect, you'd make taunts just as much of a headache to ballance as DPS or CC is now.</p><p>Duration changes would highly complicate matters. If the top end increases, then the bottom end probably needs to be lowered to make room for the new "middle". So then you'd need the gear to get what you have now. Without that kind of change, taunt would just get more and more imballanced as it improved from the current.</p><p>Hit-rate changes are less complicated, but still something that needs to be accounted for. Indeed, there might have to be a resist type associated with taunt. Either a whole new resist, or an existing one. Maybe even a different resist type for each archtype? How would that affect PvE encounters? How would that affect non-BG PvP encounters?</p><p>While you don't like leaving taunts as a static that devs can balance easily...I'm not sure you'd like the alternatives either. For every gain, there needs to be an accounting and that usually involves costs.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>While you don't like leaving taunts as a static that devs can balance easily...I'm not sure you'd like the alternatives either. For every gain, there needs to be an accounting and that usually involves costs.</p></blockquote><p>I prefer my primary class role to be something that I can get better out from achievements.</p><p>Any decent game allows for this kind of progression.</p>

[Darkonx]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>bartb wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As an sk the taunt has been taken off grave sacrement and hateful respite also the buff we use to proc threat off melle incoming damage is gone in pvp, leaves me with 2 taunts basically my green group taunt locks target for 3 secs and has a 17second reuse and is curable and my single taunt, so when people say tanks aint taunting they really need to go try to play one for themselves , i think most tanks try to protect the group as much as we can o i know some are fully dps geared and run about like rambo trying to kill folks.</p></blockquote><p>Clearly you have no clue what your Myth proc does</p></blockquote><p>It does nothing other than damage according to the PvP checkbox.</p>

[Raznor2]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>While you don't like leaving taunts as a static that devs can balance easily...I'm not sure you'd like the alternatives either. For every gain, there needs to be an accounting and that usually involves costs.</p></blockquote><p>I prefer my primary class role to be something that I can get better out from achievements.</p><p>Any decent game allows for this kind of progression.</p></blockquote><p>You can still improve your ability to mitigate damage, avoid damage and deal damage.  Soaking up dps is just as important as taunting.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>bartb wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As an sk the taunt has been taken off grave sacrement and hateful respite also the buff we use to proc threat off melle incoming damage is gone in pvp, leaves me with 2 taunts basically my green group taunt locks target for 3 secs and has a 17second reuse and is curable and my single taunt, so when people say tanks aint taunting they really need to go try to play one for themselves , i think most tanks try to protect the group as much as we can o i know some are fully dps geared and run about like rambo trying to kill folks.</p></blockquote><p>Clearly you have no clue what your Myth proc does</p></blockquote><p>It does nothing other than damage according to the PvP checkbox.</p></blockquote><p><img src="http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/7403/eq2000038.jpg" width="305" height="678" /></p>

[Valind]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><img src="http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/7403/eq2000038.jpg" width="305" height="678" /></p></blockquote><p>Please note:This ability will taunt everyone who has any agro with you. It works zonewide. It is a 3 second taunt lock. Did I mention that it has no range? If you shoot an arrow at a Shadowknight and his damage shield procs, then you run away to the other side of the zone and he heals himself, you're locked onto the SK... from the other side of the map.</p><p>This is easily the most overpowered Taunt proc there is.</p>

[AziBam]

<p>That must be an old picture of the SK myth.  The current buff does not say anything about forcing the target in PVP.  Neither the new enervated buff "seething hatred" nor the original myth currently have that language in the description.  I just checked.  I looked at my own buff from the new version and had others link the original myth in chat. </p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>That must be an old picture of the SK myth.  The current buff does not say anything about forcing the target in PVP.  Neither the new enervated buff "seething hatred" nor the original myth currently have that language in the description.  I just checked.  I looked at my own buff from the new version and had others link the original myth in chat. </p></blockquote><p>Screenshot from yesterday</p>

[AziBam]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>That must be an old picture of the SK myth.  The current buff does not say anything about forcing the target in PVP.  Neither the new enervated buff "seething hatred" nor the original myth currently have that language in the description.  I just checked.  I looked at my own buff from the new version and had others link the original myth in chat. </p></blockquote><p>Screenshot from yesterday</p></blockquote><p>Do the PVP servers have slightly different myths than PVE servers then?  I'm looking again now at both versions (new and old) and that language simply isn't there.  In it's place is a damage proc.</p><p>I do have the PVP checkbox clicked as well.  The only thing that does is change the damage rating on the weap a bit (lower) and also the value of the proc is less in PVP on mine. </p><p>I'd screenshot it for you but am embarassed to admit my Screenshot/photoshop Fu is weak!</p>

[AziBam]

<p>Bah, screenshot fu is soooo weak for me.</p>

[Darkonx]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>bartb wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As an sk the taunt has been taken off grave sacrement and hateful respite also the buff we use to proc threat off melle incoming damage is gone in pvp, leaves me with 2 taunts basically my green group taunt locks target for 3 secs and has a 17second reuse and is curable and my single taunt, so when people say tanks aint taunting they really need to go try to play one for themselves , i think most tanks try to protect the group as much as we can o i know some are fully dps geared and run about like rambo trying to kill folks.</p></blockquote><p>Clearly you have no clue what your Myth proc does</p></blockquote><p>It does nothing other than damage according to the PvP checkbox.</p></blockquote><p><img src="http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/7403/eq2000038.jpg" width="305" height="678" /></p></blockquote><p>I am looking at the Seething Hatred check box now. It does not do this. If this gets fixed, it'd be great though!</p>

[Valind]

<p>You're looking at the ***PVE EFFECTS*** on the myth. if you click that awesome little PvP checkbox (may have to be in a BG) then you'll be able to see that your version absolutely is the same.</p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=476860�" target="_blank">Click me!</a></p>

[Costa]

<p>I'm kinda with the general feeling taunts are working as intended at the moment. Group taunts and single target taunts have the target locked for 3 seconds unless cured. Warriors have the passive ability to have people lock to them that hit them simple answer on how to not get locked to them there <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Crusaders have the nice SF aa ability that procs an encouter target switch to them which is very usefull if your in the middle of a big fight. Pallies amends has a chance to force an enemy beating on your amends target to target the pally (generally drop this on my healer for added protection). SoH (Pally) also has a chance to proc a target switch to the pally if their group members take damage. Again quite usefull if you have multiple pvp encounters trying to attack your group. Taunt proc gear generally has a chance to force the target to switch to the tank although it's not normally for a fixed duration. Insolence (zerk) is annoying as hell in pvp due to the target lock and then chance to target switch the group when zerk takes damage from anyone in your group. That coupled with blood frenzy in the middle of a mass melee fight generally = zerk back to full health in seconds <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Not sure how guardians abilities or sk ailities work as i don't play them but i'm sure they have similar abilities.</p><p>Aura of the crusader also carries an anti target lock and taunt immunity for 20 seconds. If your trying to hit a pally or sk and they are immune then they've used the nice anti cc effect ability. I'm not sure if brawlers or healers get anything to that extent but i know my zerk dosn't <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I can see where Atan is coming from with the crits increaseing taunt duration etc but if your lvl 90 and not at +100% crit your doing something wrong. Maybe having potency reduce the resistability of taunts is something that could be introduced?</p>

[AziBam]

<p><cite>Valindor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You're looking at the ***PVE EFFECTS*** on the myth. if you click that awesome little PvP checkbox <span style="font-size: small;"><strong>(may have to be in a BG)</strong></span> then you'll be able to see that your version absolutely is the same.</p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=476860�" target="_blank">Click me!</a></p></blockquote><p>Maybe the bolded part above is the problem. Seems to defeat the point of the PVP check box though.  I was toggling the PVP box on and off to view the difference.  On my normal server, (Everfrost) it was not ever showing the forces target part.  I'll have to view it when I'm in a BG.</p>

[Valind]

<p><cite>Bazill@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm kinda with the general feeling taunts are working as intended at the moment. Group taunts and single target taunts have the target locked for 3 seconds unless cured. Warriors have the passive ability to have people lock to them that hit them simple answer on how to not get locked to them there <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> Crusaders have the nice SF aa ability that procs an encouter target switch to them which is very usefull if your in the middle of a big fight. Pallies amends has a chance to force an enemy beating on your amends target to target the pally (generally drop this on my healer for added protection). SoH (Pally) also has a chance to proc a target switch to the pally if their group members take damage. Again quite usefull if you have multiple pvp encounters trying to attack your group. <span style="color: #ff0000;">Taunt proc gear generally has a chance to force the target to switch to the tank although it's not normally for a fixed duration</span>. Insolence (zerk) is annoying as hell in pvp due to the target lock and then chance to target switch the group when zerk takes damage from anyone in your group. That coupled with blood frenzy in the middle of a mass melee fight generally = zerk back to full health in seconds <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> Not sure how guardians abilities or sk ailities work as i don't play them but i'm sure they have similar abilities.</p><p>Aura of the crusader also carries an anti target lock and taunt immunity for 20 seconds. If your trying to hit a pally or sk and they are immune then they've used the nice anti cc effect ability. I'm not sure if brawlers or healers get anything to that extent but i know my zerk dosn't <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p><p>I can see where Atan is coming from with the crits increaseing taunt duration etc but if your lvl 90 and not at +100% crit your doing something wrong. Maybe having potency reduce the resistability of taunts is something that could be introduced?</p></blockquote><p>No. +threat does not mean that you taunt in pvp. There are VERY few items with target change abilities in pvp combat.</p>

[Darkonx]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>bartb wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As an sk the taunt has been taken off grave sacrement and hateful respite also the buff we use to proc threat off melle incoming damage is gone in pvp, leaves me with 2 taunts basically my green group taunt locks target for 3 secs and has a 17second reuse and is curable and my single taunt, so when people say tanks aint taunting they really need to go try to play one for themselves , i think most tanks try to protect the group as much as we can o i know some are fully dps geared and run about like rambo trying to kill folks.</p></blockquote><p>Clearly you have no clue what your Myth proc does</p></blockquote><p>It does nothing other than damage according to the PvP checkbox.</p></blockquote><p><img src="http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/7403/eq2000038.jpg" width="305" height="678" /></p></blockquote><p> Hopefully this will get fixed so it actually works!</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Raznor@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I prefer my primary class role to be something that I can get better at from achievements.</p><p>Any decent game allows for this kind of progression.</p></blockquote><p>You can still improve your ability to mitigate damage, avoid damage and deal damage.  Soaking up dps is just as important as taunting.</p></blockquote><p>While true, its not the core class role.  In addition, the ability to mitigate and avoid damage is already trivially capped from PVE content leaving little to nothing to work towards in BGs.</p>

[StaticLex]

<p>I won't even do a BG with my healer anymore unless it's a premade.  There are way too many garbage tanks out there who ruin the fun.</p>

[Darkonx]

<p><cite>Valindor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You're looking at the ***PVE EFFECTS*** on the myth. if you click that awesome little PvP checkbox (may have to be in a BG) then you'll be able to see that your version absolutely is the same.</p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=476860�" target="_blank">Click me!</a></p></blockquote><p>The PVP version is the 80% of the damage, in terms of the proc. Other than that, the enervated buff is IDENTICAL in PVE and PVP. This needs to be looked into, please.</p>

[Valind]

<p>Then your examine window is broken. Trust me, that proc taunts like a mofo.</p>

[knightofround]

<p>I don't think I've ever been target locked to an SK across the zone in a BG. Bruisers, yes, SKs, no. Maybe that proc works in open pvp.</p><p>In any case, if you right click and examine the epic buff in BGs there is no verbiage about a target lock on lifetap. Can anyone else confirm that the SK proc works like that specifically in BGs?</p>

[Darkonx]

<p><cite>Valindor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Then your examine window is broken. Trust me, that proc taunts like a mofo.</p></blockquote><p>It used to, until you enervated your mythical. It doesn't work on the enervated buff. Fix please!</p>