Procs.

[Valind]

<p>OK, PvP server only procs were removed from BGs because the PvE servers couldn't get them (not entirely true, but moving on). Alot of the BG gear has been changed to only be any good inside BGs.</p><p>When are you changing PvE stuff to not proc in PvP combat? If I can't use my BG and openworld PvP gear procs in PvE content, then why are you still allowing PvE gear with its stupid OP procs to be bought into PvP situations?</p>

[Banditman]

<p>Perhaps because PvE gear is available on every server, not just the PvE only servers?</p>

[Valind]

<p>So its ok to have broken procs because everyone can get them? These procs have turned PvP from a class vs class fight to who can proc their stuff first.</p><p>I don't particularly care who has access to them. They're OP no matter what you have to do to get them. They have no place in PvP combat.</p>

[Taldier]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Perhaps because PvE gear is available on every server, not just the PvE only servers?</p></blockquote><p>I think his question is:</p><p>Why is pve gear better for pvp than pvp gear, but pvp gear gets disabled in pve combat?</p><p>Seems that either all gear should work all the time or all gear should only work in the enviornment its supposed to.</p><p>Need to choose one way or the other.</p><p>Slight double standard here?</p>

[Darkonx]

<p><cite>Valindor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong><span style="font-size: x-small;">So its ok to have broken procs because everyone can get them?</span></strong> These procs have turned PvP from a class vs class fight to who can proc their stuff first.</p><p>I don't particularly care who has access to them. They're OP no matter what you have to do to get them. They have no place in PvP combat.</p></blockquote><p>Yes. It makes class balancing easier.</p><p>EXAMPLE: For instance, let's say everyone is in the same exact armor. A paladin spell might hit for 2k, and the shadowknight spell for 1k, so every single time they came together, the paladin would hit twice as hard. However, if the shadowknight spent the time/effort/money/whatever involved to get some rare piece of jewelery/armor from a dungeon, then that might give them the advantage, despite having an inferior base ability.</p><p>Basically, procs make balancing issues similar since ALL the gear that procs in BG's is available to EVERYONE. It's fair. A blue guardian can get the same proc as the red guardian can. Class vs class is not balanced, so having procs as the great equalizer makes it considerably more fair.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p>Why even have gear they should just have whoever pushes buttons faster and has the least amount of lag win every fight.</p>

[Shankapotomus]

<p>Why it doesn't make sense to disable PvP gear in PvE situations is because some people play soly for the enjoyment of PvP. So you take away the effect of their hard earned gear (gear that blues did not want to put in the time to get on a red server) but still allow people who enjoy another play style to get a advantage over them in both situations...</p><p>And that is wrong...</p>

[Darkonx]

<p><cite>Shankapotomus@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Why it doesn't make sense to disable PvP gear in PvE situations is because some people play soly for the enjoyment of PvP. So you take away the effect of their hard earned gear (gear that blues did not want to put in the time to get on a red server) but still allow people who enjoy another play style to get a advantage over them in both situations...</p><p>And that is wrong...</p></blockquote><p>BG's were not implemented with PVP servers. It is unfair to come out with a mechanic for all servers (BG's) and then have gear that is extremely good (red server only proc gear) that makes certain character more powerful, INDEFINITELY, than their PVE counterparts. Were there PVE equivelents of the items, sure, np, because with time/effort, blues COULD get them. Procs that everyone can attain are fair game.</p>

[Aleste]

<p>Bg procs are disabled because alot of pve players said it forced them to pvp for gear.. so rather than choosing not to they complained till things were disabled.. true story</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Shankapotomus@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Why it doesn't make sense to disable PvP gear in PvE situations is because some people play soly for the enjoyment of PvP. So you take away the effect of their hard earned gear (gear that blues did not want to put in the time to get on a red server) but still allow people who enjoy another play style to get a advantage over them in both situations...</p><p>And that is wrong...</p></blockquote><p>BG's were not implemented with PVP servers. It is unfair to come out with a mechanic for all servers (BG's) and then have gear that is extremely good (red server only proc gear) that makes certain character more powerful, INDEFINITELY, than their PVE counterparts. Were there PVE equivelents of the items, sure, np, because with time/effort, blues COULD get them. Procs that everyone can attain are fair game.</p></blockquote><p>Aren't you the same guy that was saying Torrent and Pest. Rain where fine? There goes your credability</p>

[Darkonx]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Shankapotomus@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Why it doesn't make sense to disable PvP gear in PvE situations is because some people play soly for the enjoyment of PvP. So you take away the effect of their hard earned gear (gear that blues did not want to put in the time to get on a red server) but still allow people who enjoy another play style to get a advantage over them in both situations...</p><p>And that is wrong...</p></blockquote><p>BG's were not implemented with PVP servers. It is unfair to come out with a mechanic for all servers (BG's) and then have gear that is extremely good (red server only proc gear) that makes certain character more powerful, INDEFINITELY, than their PVE counterparts. Were there PVE equivelents of the items, sure, np, because with time/effort, blues COULD get them. Procs that everyone can attain are fair game.</p></blockquote><p>Aren't you the same guy that was saying Torrent and Pest. Rain where fine? There goes your credability</p></blockquote><p>I don't want to get into a personal argument, because that isn't what these forums are for. I said torrent/pest rain shouldn't be changed until the resist fix was in. No personal attacks, please.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Shankapotomus@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Why it doesn't make sense to disable PvP gear in PvE situations is because some people play soly for the enjoyment of PvP. So you take away the effect of their hard earned gear (gear that blues did not want to put in the time to get on a red server) but still allow people who enjoy another play style to get a advantage over them in both situations...</p><p>And that is wrong...</p></blockquote><p>BG's were not implemented with PVP servers. It is unfair to come out with a mechanic for all servers (BG's) and then have gear that is extremely good (red server only proc gear) that makes certain character more powerful, INDEFINITELY, than their PVE counterparts. Were there PVE equivelents of the items, sure, np, because with time/effort, blues COULD get them. Procs that everyone can attain are fair game.</p></blockquote><p>Aren't you the same guy that was saying Torrent and Pest. Rain where fine? There goes your credability</p></blockquote><p>I don't want to get into a personal argument, because that isn't what these forums are for. I said torrent/pest rain shouldn't be changed until the resist fix was in. No personal attacks, please.</p></blockquote><p>No personal attack, Just exposing the credability your arguement has, It personally benefits you a lot to keep the procs the way they are now because it's a majority of your DPS, No?</p>

[Corydonn]

<p>Wouldn't items that proc group wards have to be toned down as well? I mean its a majority of the HPS with the healer really having to just mash heals instead of quickly chosing what heals to cast for the situation.</p>

[Aleste]

Enable or disable procs across the board everywhere is the only fair way to go about it. When devs cater to only one player base its teh sukx.

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Wouldn't items that proc group wards have to be toned down as well? I mean its a majority of the HPS with the healer really having to just mash heals instead of quickly chosing what heals to cast for the situation.</p></blockquote><p>Fine, Anything but cure procs, There are far too many detriments that fly to not let those be used.</p>

[kreepr]

<p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Bg procs are disabled because alot of pve players said it forced them to pvp for gear.. so rather than choosing not to they complained till things were disabled.. true story</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">This is what happened right here ^^^^. Wish they would change it back.</span></p>

[Xanrn]

<p>I am going to have a hard time replying this topic without insulting people.</p><p>SO lets just say alot of you are SBAR.</p><p>PvP gear was overpowered in BG</p><p>PvE servers couldn't get it, so it was disabled (and will be renabled soon enough so I don't know why you are crying).</p><p>PvPers start crying and telling PvEers too roll on PvP servers to get the PvP gear...</p><p>See this is where you begin too look stupid and illogical.</p><p>BG were designed to give PvP to PvE servers.</p><p>Rolling a character on a PvP server defeats the entire purpose of BG.</p><p>Which is to give fully optional PvP to PvE servers full of characters people have been playing for years and love.</p><p>WHAT exactly is the point of me rolling a new character on a PvP server to get PvP gear for BG when I can't give it too my PvE character who the BG was designed for...</p><p>Having too roll a character on a PvP server so you can compete in BG, defeates the entire purpose of BG which is too bring PvP to veteran PvE characters on PvE servers.</p><p>I'll say that once again.</p><p>Battlegrounds were designed to bring PvP a new area of gameplay to EXISTING PvE characers on PvE servers.</p><p>It was not designed to give people to PvP players too run over with PvP gear.</p><p>Anyway the procs are getting turned back on next GU when they give access to the stuff too everyone through BG.</p>

[Valind]

<p>The post has nothing to do with who has access to the procs. This post is to address the fact that PvE-based procs are stupidly powerful when put into a PvP setting.</p><p>Case in point, Pestilential Rain and Torrent. Proc zone-wide or any attack. When there are damage parses from a shadowknight where more than half the damage is caused entirely by those procs, there's a problem. Red adornments are also stupid OP in PvP(BGs). Can anyone say group-stoneskins for a minute?</p><p>None of these effects are that overpowering in PvE. They were made with PvE in mind, nuking everything in an encounter in PvE is no problem, you hit 3 mobs for 2k a pop. Nuking everyone in an x4 for 2k a pop however IS overpowered.</p><p>The only real solution is to remove PvE procs from PvP combat.</p>

[Yimway]

<p>Its not just in pvp combat though,  Torrent is crazy powerful in all content.</p>

[Valind]

<p>Yes, but the mobs don't come to the forums to cry about it. <- sig worthy TBH</p>

[AziBam]

<p><cite>Valindor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>OK, PvP server only procs were removed from BGs because the PvE servers couldn't get them (not entirely true, but moving on). Alot of the BG gear has been changed to only be any good inside BGs.</p><p>When are you changing PvE stuff to not proc in PvP combat? If I can't use my BG and openworld PvP gear procs in PvE content, then why are you still allowing PvE gear with its stupid OP procs to be bought into PvP situations?</p></blockquote><p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Perhaps because PvE gear is available on every server, not just the PvE only servers?</p></blockquote><p>and</p><p><cite>Ummudien@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Anyway the procs are getting turned back on next GU when they give access to the stuff too everyone through BG.</p></blockquote><p>Really, what more info is needed?</p>

[Valind]

<p><cite>Valindor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The post has nothing to do with who has access to the procs. This post is to address the fact that PvE-based procs are stupidly powerful when put into a PvP setting.</p></blockquote><p>See? I can do the quoting thing as well.</p>

[AziBam]

<p><cite>Valindor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Valindor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The post has nothing to do with who has access to the procs. This post is to address the fact that PvE-based procs are stupidly powerful when put into a PvP setting.</p></blockquote><p>See? I can do the quoting thing as well.</p></blockquote><p>Lol. Ok, my mildly snarky reply warranted your mildly snarky reply.  Even!  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  In truth, I did pretty much disregard what you quoted above since you were departing from your OP.  If your concern was regarding a few specific procs (which are/were available on both PVP and PVE servers) it would have been better to have just said so right away.  However, what you said was...</p><p><cite>Valindor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> <span style="font-size: small;"><strong>If I can't use my BG and openworld PvP gear procs in PvE content, then why are you still allowing PvE gear with its stupid OP procs to be bought into PvP situations?</strong></span></p></blockquote><p>The point of the PVP proc nerf was entirely due to access.  A toon from a PVE server couldn't get certain PVP procs. My interpretation of what you said here was: I don't have my PVP procs any longer. Others have their PVE procs (that I had access too but don't actually have on my toon).  Therefore, all PVE procs should be disabled.</p><p>The problem you are now describing isn't PVE procs in a broad sense.  It's a few very specific ones.  (In fairness, that was true of the PVP procs as well.)</p><p>Overall though, probably the most important thing now is (another quote for you..I know..I know)...</p><p><cite>timetravelling wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Allo!</p><p>GU56 will be hitting the test server soon, and I'd like to give y'all a brief preview of some of the exciting things that should be included:</p><ul><li>Brand new 1st Campaign armor sets and accessories</li><li>Many of the accessories are based upon the currently BG-disabled RoK PvP accessories. Those adornments have had their effects adjusted and will be re-enabled for battlegrounds!</li></ul></blockquote><p>Even though I'm from a PVE server, I'm glad they are going to re-enable these.  I also think it would have been better for them to have said they were working on it in the first place rather than just saying sorry, they are disabled.  Had it been known the disable was temporary it could have saved a lot of anger from PVPers.</p><p>I wonder how much damage torrent will do now with the resist change.  One would have to imagine it's way down.  Also, they are working through other items that are OP.  Ie, the deathmarch stoneskin red adornment has already been noted that it's getting changed.  All we can do is bring up specific problems as they become evident.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><em><strong>The point of the PVP proc nerf was entirely due to access.</strong></em></span>  A toon from a PVE server couldn't get certain PVP procs. My interpretation of what you said here was: I don't have my PVP procs any longer. Others have their PVE procs (that I had access too but don't actually have on my toon).  Therefore, all PVE procs should be disabled.</p><p>The problem you are now describing isn't PVE procs in a broad sense.  It's a few very specific ones.  (In fairness, that was true of the PVP procs as well.)</p><p>Overall though, probably the most important thing now is (another quote for you..I know..I know)...</p><p><cite>timetravelling wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Allo!</p><p>GU56 will be hitting the test server soon, and I'd like to give y'all a brief preview of some of the exciting things that should be included:</p><ul><li>Brand new 1st Campaign armor sets and accessories</li><li>Many of the accessories are based upon the currently BG-disabled RoK PvP accessories. Those adornments have had their effects adjusted and will be re-enabled for battlegrounds!</li></ul></blockquote><p>Even though I'm from a PVE server, I'm glad they are going to re-enable these.  I also think it would have been better for them to have said they were working on it in the first place rather than just saying sorry, they are disabled.  Had it been known the disable was temporary it could have saved a lot of anger from PVPers.</p><p>I wonder how much damage torrent will do now with the resist change.  One would have to imagine it's way down.  Also, they are working through other items that are OP.  Ie, the deathmarch stoneskin red adornment has already been noted that it's getting changed.  All we can do is bring up specific problems as they become evident.</p></blockquote><p>This is so false, Almost all of the gear had a PvE Counterpart.</p>

[Darkonx]

<p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Enable or disable procs across the board everywhere is the only fair way to go about it. When devs cater to only one player base its teh sukx.</blockquote><p>All players can get all the gear that currently procs in BG's. Torrent does NOT proc against the entire x4, it procs against a group, not an entire raid. x6, not x24, and it took a pretty serious damage nerf with the resist changes. (Edit: It might proc on more, but only if they're within range. From my testing it seemed like it would only hit 6 people, and only if they were close enough)</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Enable or disable procs across the board everywhere is the only fair way to go about it. When devs cater to only one player base its teh sukx.</blockquote><p>All players can get all the gear that currently procs in BG's. Torrent does NOT proc against the entire x4, it procs against a group, not an entire raid. x6, not x24, and it took a pretty serious damage nerf with the resist changes. (Edit: It might proc on more, but only if they're within range. From my testing it seemed like it would only hit 6 people, and only if they were close enough)</p></blockquote><p>If you are using ACT, you can only pick up damage within  your log range, so you really can't evaluate if it's hitting people across the zone and outside of the group you are attacking</p>

[Aleste]

<p>Well.. pvers complained about pvp procs. We play diffrent playstyles and got diffrent gear from our said playstyles. If our gear we worked to aquire gets disabled in a pvp enviroment then raid gear should get the same treatment.. and last i checked bg was for everyone not just pvers who put years in their toons. And what i meant by my comment was all gear should be useable in all situations pve or pvp we put the time in to get it why not be able to use it? Oohhh cause its tagged fabled hardcore raiders hate anyone other than them having fabled loots</p>

[AziBam]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This is so false, Almost all of the gear had a PvE Counterpart.</p></blockquote><p>Well, whether you believe it or not, that is not what the Dev team felt.  Olihin directly said that those items not available to players on PVE servers were being disabled in BGs.  He also specifically said these procs were generally unique to PVP.  We now know that was a temporary change.  You may argue that he was wrong.  But, my statement that it was why the PVP procs were removed is accurate.   </p><p>Meh.  We aren't exactly covering new ground here.  All these arguments have been had ad nauseum already.  Hopefully, it will all be a moot point once these new adornments become available.</p>

[Darkonx]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Enable or disable procs across the board everywhere is the only fair way to go about it. When devs cater to only one player base its teh sukx.</blockquote><p>All players can get all the gear that currently procs in BG's. Torrent does NOT proc against the entire x4, it procs against a group, not an entire raid. x6, not x24, and it took a pretty serious damage nerf with the resist changes. (Edit: It might proc on more, but only if they're within range. From my testing it seemed like it would only hit 6 people, and only if they were close enough)</p></blockquote><p>If you are using ACT, you can only pick up damage within  your log range, so you really can't evaluate if it's hitting people across the zone and outside of the group you are attacking</p></blockquote><p>When the damage procs, you see orange numbers over everyones heads. It used to say 'hits Unknown for XYZ damage' when it first came out, because it was hitting targets that were crazy far away. I haven't seen it do that in quite some time. I'm about 90% sure it is no longer zonewide, and 95% sure it's limited to 6 targets.</p>

[Aleste]

<p>Ive seen alot of pve items with pvp procs under a diffrent name... i think thats where the confusion came into play.</p>

[Shorcon]

<p><cite>Taldier@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Perhaps because PvE gear is available on every server, not just the PvE only servers?</p></blockquote><p>I think his question is:</p><p>Why is pve gear better for pvp than pvp gear, but pvp gear gets disabled in pve combat?</p><p>Seems that either all gear should work all the time or all gear should only work in the enviornment its supposed to.</p><p>Need to choose one way or the other.</p><p>Slight double standard here?</p></blockquote><p>Nope. Not a double standard. What you are implying is though. You are saying that all gear should work in bg including unobtainable pvp loot that is only available in pvp. That is a double standard. Saying a proc is to op and should be looked into is actualy good input and soe ussualy looks into it. I agree they are op big time and not working as intended. I wish they would balance tank classes back to what they were in the begining. Pure tanks warrior, hybrid tanks crusader, dps tanks brawler.</p><p>I am tired of guardian being the least used tank class. I am tired of seeing zerk/pal/sk/monk/bru survival solo being better that gaurdian survival with a healer. It makes no sense to see a sk on top of the heal parse damage parse and kill parse. Nerf the hybrid tanks so they are a lesser in survivability. That would be balance.</p>