Biggest concerns and issues with Coercer class and/or abilities [Archive]

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SavgSno

04-14-2010, 05:11 AM

Please post any real issues with class abilities and/or suggestions to better improve Coercers here in this thread. Casual and Raiders alike!This is a compiled list of input and will update it frequently.Amnesia is and has been fairly useless since The Shadow Oddysey expansion.Dispel does nothing outside of PVP.Gear w/ pet stats does not effect possessed pet, until un-equipping and re-equipping item(s).Thought snap is fairly ineffective.Possibly remove 1 hander restriction from Str Enchanter line as to allow us to utilize 2 handers while not losing use of an entire AA line. (Assuming a 2 hander gets implemented that would outway or match the stat benefits of primary and offhand)Rework Hypnosis AA (Charm) as to be more beneficial.Possible damage attachment and/or more importantly adjust range to the new AA Coercive Shout.Please add CONSTRUCTIVE feedback and not be biased toward those who raid and/or are our casual players.This was a very well done post and wanted to highlight it for Hecula :Enchanter Tree:STR LineThis line is generally a good choice in SF - I think most Coercers are taking this line in preference to the STA line.Spellblade's Counter - generally a good CASpellblade's Reflexes - weapon range is nice, the parry and the +weapon skills aren't that great - could use improvementQuickening - good abilityCounterblade - this is pretty much just useful in PvP and as another quick CA. The counter to counterblade doesn't work on hardly anything PvE-wise. As an end-line Coercer ability this should be improved. Allowing it to completely counter any AOEs or spells would be a bit too OP - perhaps a short range, short duration spell damage reduction AOE centered on the Coercer of say, 10%?Wide Swings - good abilityAGI LineThis line is generally still seen as a required line for Enchanters. Perpetuality is still a very nice ability - it should be easily possible to get to 100% static cast speed in SF so speccing out of this line may be a possibility for some chanters.Chronosiphoning - really only used as an ability to get further down the tree - I can't remember the last time I used this in the current tier. It was good in lower levels. Probably OK but this ability is losing popularity due to how available spell cast speed is in current expansions.Chronomotion - good abilityChronology - good abilityPerpetuality - good abilityPerpetual Motion - would like to see this boosted a tad - .8 second increase for 8 points seems a bit thin.STA LineUsed to be a good choice for a Coercer - giving the healers +16 Crit% allowed them to use other gear with lower crit amounts and still stay capped. The current change from Crit% to Heal Amount and the reduction from 16% to 8% caused this line to lose a lot of its desireability.Touch of Empathy - we are generally not paired with people that put out a lot of threat that isn't being passed to a tank. The fact that this ability is group only really limits its use. Making it raid-wide would take it a step in the right direction.Empathic Aura - took a huge hit in SF. Needs to be boosted - at least 2% per rank if not 3.Empathic Breeze - of limited usefulness - again, we're usually not in groups that don't have classes with high unmitigated amounts of threat.Sever Hate - probably the secoind best ability of the bunch right now.Respite - the best ability in the line - the final rank AOE-avoid has actually seen some people spec this line over INT. If the rest of the line can be boosted a bit, this line could be a good 3rd-option for Coercers.WIS LineAlmost completely useless in all regards. The final endline ability works on pretty much nothing since PR.Daydream - completely uselessDream Barrier - resists are nice but doesn't make this line worth taking.Dreamweaver's Trance - enhances mez spells so it's about as useless as mez currently is for our classHypnosis - completely worthless - works on nothing that a charm wouldn't work on.Stunning Mesmerization - mezzes are next to worthless, stuns are next to worthless - a mezz with a stun is all kinds of worthless.INT LineCurrently a good second line choice after AGI - is pretty good overall.Nullifying Staff - not too bad but could have the values boosted to be more in line with current tier valuesSavant's Insight - not too bad although not proccing off of damage shields is BS in general practice.Savant's Channel - good abilityVolatile Magic - good abilityUninterruptable Actions - good abilityEnd Line - Channeled Focus - 2 ranks is pretty much required. I don't think it's too bad an ability but others have made the coment that most of what it adds can already be fairly easily capped which I'll agree with.Coercer TreeEfficency LineThis line is generally a waste. Most of the abilities enhanced are situational spells and Thoughtsnap was intentionally broken. An entire revamp of this line is in order including the end-line ability.Enhance: Medusa Gaze - the spell is situational at best - the AA is generally not taken except for soloingEnhance: Forced Hesitation - another spell that's only used soloing - not generally takenEnhance: Ego Shock - Useful because Ego Shock is a damage spell but it's one of our lowest damage spells.Enhance: Stupefy - Another situational spell - limited usefulnessEnhance: Shock Wave - probably the only useful ability since it speeds up the use of our biggest blue AOE.Thoughtsnap - it was intentionally broken because it was "too overpowered" and never fixed and nothing else was given in replacement. We argued in beta to have Coercive Shout replace it but the suggestion wasn't taken. This is supposed to be an endline Coercer-defining ability and it's broken - needs immediate attention.Resistances LineAnother line that has limited use - the endline ability - once a Coercer staple is showing it's age because it hasn't upgraded. This line needs a couple adjustments.Enhance: Charm - a spell that has very limited uses - pretty much only soloingEnhance: Dispel Magic - this was boosted in SF by adding a dispel physical conditions but it still dispels nothing. I've tried it on everything so far in the hope that it would be useful in a clutch situation but as far as I can tell, it dispels nothing at all. Either make this dispel stuff or replace this enhancement altogether. Being useful in PvP is not enough.Enhance: Asylum - goodEnhance: Obliterated Psyche - goodTashiana - once was a major Coercer-defining ability - the debuf value has fallen by the wayside. In comparison, my Miragul belt - a SINGLE item debuffs the same things for 4457 - that's much bigger than Tashiana's 3510 - that's sad. This ability needs a re-work or we need another AA that significantly enhances Tash - perhaps debuffs crit or crit bonus or something. This ability needs help.Mana LineOverall, this line is only poor to fair. Most of the power regen in here is irrelvant in terms of today's mana and is passive, so it really doesn't seem to be doing anything. The final ability, like Tashiana, is showing its age.Enhance: Mana Flow - good as-isEnhance: Shift Mana - too little of a boost for a spell that we never use. Needs a reworkEnhance: Breeze - one of the better options, still adds way too little regenEnhance: Cannibalize Thoughts - too little of a boost. Needs to be betterEnhance: Mana Cloak - decentEnhance: Mind's Eye - like the breeze AA, one of the better options, but still too littleEnhance: Channel - good as-isManaward - another end-line ability showing its age. With the way things hit today, the puny ward this gives is way too small. Needs to be boosted to be more in-line with today's values.Coercion LineStill the mainstay of the Coercer class - most of these abilities are taken by just about every Coercer.Enhance: Destructive Mind - good as-isEnhance: Peaceful Link - peaceful link really doesn't need an additional hate-decrease percentage. I would love to see this changed so that it added a dehate proc to peaceful link instead of increasing the dehate percent.Enhance: Hostage - good as-isEnhance: Spell Curse - good as-isEnhance: Mindbend - Mindbend is a spell almost noone uses even in soloing. This is a waste of an AA and needs to be reworked.Cocercive Healing - still our #1 class defining spell - it's goodSF LineThe consensus is our abilities that we got in SF were pretty poor. Despite our suggestions in beta, there were only a few changes made and only one was really worthy or writing home about. Some of these should be looked at.Increased Velocity - good but could use either the ability to cast velocity out of group with the final rank or something else for the final rank - perhaps 2% potency or something. 5 ranks for just getting Velocity groupwide is pretty weak.Simple Minded - so-so - it's one of our lower damge encounter spellsConceited Blast - only so-so - it's again one of our lowest damage spells and many don't even use it.Edge of Insanity - not too bad - values could use a boost tho.Peaceful Hostility - not too bad - instead of increasing the base trigger percentage, it would be better if this added a dehate proc or something similar.Hastened Mana - pretty underwhelming - Mana Cloak is a spell I don't use that often to begin withCoercive Shout - we suggested in beta that this replace thoughtsnap. For the end-all Coercer ability for SF it is pretty *yawn*. After using it for a couple months, I'm even less impressed. I can't say there has been a single time where I can really point to this as having a significant impact. I mostly use it as an additional tank save for when the tank starts dipping out of the green. This should probably be looked at - it's a pretty poor ability as it stands right now.Shadows TreeGeneral LineNot going to break this one down as it's the same for everyone and the two standards are Hearty Constitution and Enhanced Mind.Mage LineRoot Mastery - another ability that improves a spell that we don't use hardly at all except in soloing.Runic Protection - not bad, but the amount it increases the HPs by is very small and therefore not worth putting many points in except if you have a ton to spare.Strike of the Magi - good as-isEnhance: Masters Strike - not a bad choice but it feels like the master strikes are getting phased out in current expansions and the amount it hits for is pretty low in today's standards.Arcane Barrier - like Runic Protection, the amount it adds is pretty small - ok if you have the points but pretty underwhelming.Shadow Step - 1% per rank is pitifulBewilderment - good as-isEnchanter LineDefensive Enchantment - .5% per rank is pretty small - a red adorn increases max health by 10% - this increases 2.5% with 5 points spent. OK if you have extra points to spend but most of us don't.Mental Torment - good as-isSilent Thoughts - good as-isDistracted Mind - an enhancement to a spell that is completely and utterly broken and made non-functional. A complete waste of an AA.Dreamweaver's Focus - increasing Subjugation and Disruption is of very little importance to me or any mage. Another wasted AA.Spellblade's Enchantment - with our current Veloicty values, it puts melee classes into diminishing returns. An extra 5% per rank is very small if you count diminishing returns.Peace of Mind - good as-isCoercer LineCognizant Reduction - actually got a boost with the stat changes - now if we could just figure out which bosses use WIS as the primary stat, this might be more useful.Shield of Runes - not too bad especially now that we're doing more melee - would be an OK ability if I had extra points.Arcane Hatred - ok as-is but 1% per rank is pretty poor.Mental Blast - good as-isDepressed Thoughts - good as-isSoothing Mind - yet another enhancement to Amnesia - a completely broken spell that was intentionally deactivated but we still have these AAs that are wasted by enhancing a broken spell. Needs immediate fix.Psychic Blast - good as-isIntellectual Remedy - I think it's good as-is - others might disagree.

Iskae

04-14-2010, 11:14 AM

Basically the single largest issue I see is how, in a raid, half of our toolset becomes absolutely useless. Mezzes, stuns, charms, etc. have absolutely no use in a raid, leaving us as power management/DPS (Granted, we do both of these things decently). No other class faces these kinds of losses when raiding. It nullifies the extra effects of 3 of our damage spells (Ego Shock, Silence, Shock Wave), 7 other spells (Single/group stun, sigle/group mez, AE fear, root, Amnesia), as well as a lot of AAs directed towards enhancing those spells.The terrifying part is, we're now losing these spells usefulness in solo/group content as well, as a lot of mobs, since TSO and especially in SF, are control immune.This needs to change. The entire point of our class has been lost, since control spells are of limited to no usefulness now.The majority of other issues (Amnesia being useless, Thoughtsnap being useless, etc.) all stem from the major issue of our crowd control abilities being taken away from us, as apparently they are OP.If they were still OP, I could understand this, but we now solo less effectively than a lot of other classes. A conji friend of mine routinely solos T9/T8 zones for mutables, and an SK friend of mine does the same thing. Yet, I cannot because if I attempt to root/stun/stifle the mob, I see an "IMMUNE" message and the mob proceeds to kill me, as such spells are my only real way of survival in such a situation.Either remove the immunities or change the spells, but dont leave them as useless abilities only useful on solo mobs, where they aren't needed.

Jesdyr

04-14-2010, 11:55 AM

1 - Up the melee damage on staff items or give us daggers with mage stats.2- Increase the base damage numbers on Spell Curse, Destructive Mind, Brainshock, Ego Shock, Hemorrhage and Asylum by 10%3- Make Amnesia function like the Bristlebane miracle disappearing act and remove any amnesia immunities. <a title="Disappearing Act" href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Disappearing_Act"> </a>4- Make Perpetual motion add a spell reuse component added to perp V (1% per point to prep V). Having this AA how it is just means you have no faith in your ability to fix casting lag.5- CC is near worthless ... remove CC immunities from most non end boss named heroics.These types of changes should also happen for Illy <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Luminare

04-14-2010, 12:27 PM

<cite>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>1 - Up the melee damage on staff items or give us daggers with mage stats.2- Increase the base damage numbers on Spell Curse, Destructive Mind, Brainshock, Ego Shock, Hemorrhage and Asylum by 10%3- Make Amnesia function like the Bristlebane miracle disappearing act and remove any amnesia immunities. <a title="Disappearing Act" href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Disappearing_Act"> </a>4- Make Perpetual motion add a spell reuse component added to perp V (1% per point to prep V). Having this AA how it is just means you have no faith in your ability to fix casting lag.5- CC is near worthless ... remove CC immunities from most non end boss named heroics.</blockquote>Just fyi...1 - Dagger from General in YiS is mage usable, and there is a Dagger that drops in Lair that is mage usable. <a rel="nofollow" href="http://lootdb.com/eq2/item/2128041592" target="_blank">http://lootdb.com/eq2/item/2128041592</a> (aITEM 2128041592 630098302:Strategist's Field Dagger/a) (actually has crit bonus on it too) <a rel="nofollow" href="http://lootdb.com/eq2/item/1792540603" target="_blank">http://lootdb.com/eq2/item/1792540603</a> (aITEM 1792540603 -706338523:Wyrmlord Zaos' Toenail/a)though neither has the standard mage "INT"

Iskae

04-15-2010, 02:34 PM

Another point:-Make Channeled Focus useful. As it is it is definitely not worth 4 AA points and a 10 minute recast. Power is never an issue, and the cast speed/attack speed is minimal given the new gear. That means that for those 4 pts a group of the raid is gaining 50% to triggers for 30 second every 10 minutes. Thats terrible.Either lower the recast to something like 3 min base, or scrap the entire ability and give us something new (Insane temp buff maybe?)Yet another point:-I like what was done with SF to make us more hybrid mages. Str line is now very viable, and I like the feel of having some mage aspects and some scout aspects. I wonder if there is a way to do something more with that. Im not asking for poisons or something of that nature, but maybe open up more piercing/slashing weapon choices for us, or allow us to DW (That would be an amazing enchanter endline)

Luminare

04-15-2010, 03:39 PM

I agree in full with Iskae's post. I will provide this suggestion though...As a "mind controlling" class with very little mana problems, I find it interesting that we don't have an ability that lets us toy with our mana (ie. manaburn, etc.) I would suggest scrapping channeled focus in place of a high-damage yielding ability that forces us to control our mana. Perhaps a 30 sec buff (3-5 minute reuse) that doubles our damage output while costing 4 or 5 times as much mana to cast. There are cases where our mana regen abilities are not necessary, and in those cases we essentially hit a handful of buttons to pass the time.Just my 2 cents.

04-15-2010, 07:10 PM

<cite>Iskae wrote:</cite><blockquote>Another point:-Make Channeled Focus useful. As it is it is definitely not worth 4 AA points and a 10 minute recast. Power is never an issue, and the cast speed/attack speed is minimal given the new gear. That means that for those 4 pts a group of the raid is gaining 50% to triggers for 30 second every 10 minutes. Thats terrible.Either lower the recast to something like 3 min base, or scrap the entire ability and give us something new (Insane temp buff maybe?)Yet another point:-I like what was done with SF to make us more hybrid mages. Str line is now very viable, and I like the feel of having some mage aspects and some scout aspects. I wonder if there is a way to do something more with that. Im not asking for poisons or something of that nature, but maybe open up more piercing/slashing weapon choices for us, or allow us to DW (That would be an amazing enchanter endline)</blockquote>Channeled focus is pretty useless at its current reuse time, the stuff it adds is ok (though the trigger chance is great).Dual weilding chanters would be really nice, good way to help boost chanter dps. on the topic of the dps, i also think that our procs should crit in order to compensate for losses in other ways

Xethren

04-16-2010, 11:10 AM

All very good points and I hope devs will see and consider them for the future.I will say though from what I have seen from the Conservatory instance- the garden one- there were actually LESS Immune tags pop up compared to TSO zones (not counting charm/possess I need those three con slots for buffs). I havent seen the other SF dungeons yet.However I do have to agree that ALL solo content and heroic content, minus dungeon bosses and some named, should not be CC immune in any form. As the TC said no other class has a larger portion of their spell sets made useless because of mechanics in place in raids and now even heroic stuff.Our AA could use some work. I just dont see the point of our new class endline that is a blue taunt for the tank. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /> Last time I checked it wasnt our job to taunt for the group. Thought Snap is equally as pointless. And on our TSO tree we have not one, but two enhancements to another completely useless spell Amnesia. Why not remove these pointless enhancements to pointless spells and add in some more enhancements to some of our CC abilities.Our class can be made useful again its not that hard. Only boss mobs and some named should have control immunities.

Hecula

04-17-2010, 01:38 AM

I have seen a breakdown of some of our spells and how useless certain ones are. I thought I would do a breakdown of Coercer AAs as they play a big part in who we are. So here we go, by tree:Enchanter Tree:STR LineThis line is generally a good choice in SF - I think most Coercers are taking this line in preference to the STA line.Spellblade's Counter - generally a good CASpellblade's Reflexes - weapon range is nice, the parry and the +weapon skills aren't that great - could use improvementQuickening - good abilityCounterblade - this is pretty much just useful in PvP and as another quick CA. The counter to counterblade doesn't work on hardly anything PvE-wise. As an end-line Coercer ability this should be improved. Allowing it to completely counter any AOEs or spells would be a bit too OP - perhaps a short range, short duration spell damage reduction AOE centered on the Coercer of say, 10%?Wide Swings - good abilityAGI LineThis line is generally still seen as a required line for Enchanters. Perpetuality is still a very nice ability - it should be easily possible to get to 100% static cast speed in SF so speccing out of this line may be a possibility for some chanters.Chronosiphoning - really only used as an ability to get further down the tree - I can't remember the last time I used this in the current tier. It was good in lower levels. Probably OK but this ability is losing popularity due to how available spell cast speed is in current expansions.Chronomotion - good abilityChronology - good abilityPerpetuality - good abilityPerpetual Motion - would like to see this boosted a tad - .8 second increase for 8 points seems a bit thin.STA LineUsed to be a good choice for a Coercer - giving the healers +16 Crit% allowed them to use other gear with lower crit amounts and still stay capped. The current change from Crit% to Heal Amount and the reduction from 16% to 8% caused this line to lose a lot of its desireability.Touch of Empathy - we are generally not paired with people that put out a lot of threat that isn't being passed to a tank. The fact that this ability is group only really limits its use. Making it raid-wide would take it a step in the right direction.Empathic Aura - took a huge hit in SF. Needs to be boosted - at least 2% per rank if not 3.Empathic Breeze - of limited usefulness - again, we're usually not in groups that don't have classes with high unmitigated amounts of threat.Sever Hate - probably the secoind best ability of the bunch right now.Respite - the best ability in the line - the final rank AOE-avoid has actually seen some people spec this line over INT. If the rest of the line can be boosted a bit, this line could be a good 3rd-option for Coercers.WIS LineAlmost completely useless in all regards. The final endline ability works on pretty much nothing since PR.Daydream - completely uselessDream Barrier - resists are nice but doesn't make this line worth taking.Dreamweaver's Trance - enhances mez spells so it's about as useless as mez currently is for our classHypnosis - completely worthless - works on nothing that a charm wouldn't work on.Stunning Mesmerization - mezzes are next to worthless, stuns are next to worthless - a mezz with a stun is all kinds of worthless.INT LineCurrently a good second line choice after AGI - is pretty good overall.Nullifying Staff - not too bad but could have the values boosted to be more in line with current tier valuesSavant's Insight - not too bad although not proccing off of damage shields is BS in general practice.Savant's Channel - good abilityVolatile Magic - good abilityUninterruptable Actions - good abilityEnd Line - Channeled Focus - 2 ranks is pretty much required. I don't think it's too bad an ability but others have made the coment that most of what it adds can already be fairly easily capped which I'll agree with.Coercer TreeEfficency LineThis line is generally a waste. Most of the abilities enhanced are situational spells and Thoughtsnap was intentionally broken. An entire revamp of this line is in order including the end-line ability.Enhance: Medusa Gaze - the spell is situational at best - the AA is generally not taken except for soloingEnhance: Forced Hesitation - another spell that's only used soloing - not generally takenEnhance: Ego Shock - Useful because Ego Shock is a damage spell but it's one of our lowest damage spells.Enhance: Stupefy - Another situational spell - limited usefulnessEnhance: Shock Wave - probably the only useful ability since it speeds up the use of our biggest blue AOE.Thoughtsnap - it was intentionally broken because it was "too overpowered" and never fixed and nothing else was given in replacement. We argued in beta to have Coercive Shout replace it but the suggestion wasn't taken. This is supposed to be an endline Coercer-defining ability and it's broken - needs immediate attention.Resistances LineAnother line that has limited use - the endline ability - once a Coercer staple is showing it's age because it hasn't upgraded. This line needs a couple adjustments.Enhance: Charm - a spell that has very limited uses - pretty much only soloingEnhance: Dispel Magic - this was boosted in SF by adding a dispel physical conditions but it still dispels nothing. I've tried it on everything so far in the hope that it would be useful in a clutch situation but as far as I can tell, it dispels nothing at all. Either make this dispel stuff or replace this enhancement altogether. Being useful in PvP is not enough.Enhance: Asylum - goodEnhance: Obliterated Psyche - goodTashiana - once was a major Coercer-defining ability - the debuf value has fallen by the wayside. In comparison, my Miragul belt - a SINGLE item debuffs the same things for 4457 - that's much bigger than Tashiana's 3510 - that's sad. This ability needs a re-work or we need another AA that significantly enhances Tash - perhaps debuffs crit or crit bonus or something. This ability needs help.Mana LineOverall, this line is only poor to fair. Most of the power regen in here is irrelvant in terms of today's mana and is passive, so it really doesn't seem to be doing anything. The final ability, like Tashiana, is showing its age.Enhance: Mana Flow - good as-isEnhance: Shift Mana - too little of a boost for a spell that we never use. Needs a reworkEnhance: Breeze - one of the better options, still adds way too little regenEnhance: Cannibalize Thoughts - too little of a boost. Needs to be betterEnhance: Mana Cloak - decentEnhance: Mind's Eye - like the breeze AA, one of the better options, but still too littleEnhance: Channel - good as-isManaward - another end-line ability showing its age. With the way things hit today, the puny ward this gives is way too small. Needs to be boosted to be more in-line with today's values.Coercion LineStill the mainstay of the Coercer class - most of these abilities are taken by just about every Coercer.Enhance: Destructive Mind - good as-isEnhance: Peaceful Link - peaceful link really doesn't need an additional hate-decrease percentage. I would love to see this changed so that it added a dehate proc to peaceful link instead of increasing the dehate percent.Enhance: Hostage - good as-isEnhance: Spell Curse - good as-isEnhance: Mindbend - Mindbend is a spell almost noone uses even in soloing. This is a waste of an AA and needs to be reworked.Cocercive Healing - still our #1 class defining spell - it's goodSF LineThe consensus is our abilities that we got in SF were pretty poor. Despite our suggestions in beta, there were only a few changes made and only one was really worthy or writing home about. Some of these should be looked at.Increased Velocity - good but could use either the ability to cast velocity out of group with the final rank or something else for the final rank - perhaps 2% potency or something. 5 ranks for just getting Velocity groupwide is pretty weak.Simple Minded - so-so - it's one of our lower damge encounter spellsConceited Blast - only so-so - it's again one of our lowest damage spells and many don't even use it.Edge of Insanity - not too bad - values could use a boost tho.Peaceful Hostility - not too bad - instead of increasing the base trigger percentage, it would be better if this added a dehate proc or something similar.Hastened Mana - pretty underwhelming - Mana Cloak is a spell I don't use that often to begin withCoercive Shout - we suggested in beta that this replace thoughtsnap. For the end-all Coercer ability for SF it is pretty *yawn*. After using it for a couple months, I'm even less impressed. I can't say there has been a single time where I can really point to this as having a significant impact. I mostly use it as an additional tank save for when the tank starts dipping out of the green. This should probably be looked at - it's a pretty poor ability as it stands right now.Shadows TreeGeneral LineNot going to break this one down as it's the same for everyone and the two standards are Hearty Constitution and Enhanced Mind.Mage LineRoot Mastery - another ability that improves a spell that we don't use hardly at all except in soloing.Runic Protection - not bad, but the amount it increases the HPs by is very small and therefore not worth putting many points in except if you have a ton to spare.Strike of the Magi - good as-isEnhance: Masters Strike - not a bad choice but it feels like the master strikes are getting phased out in current expansions and the amount it hits for is pretty low in today's standards.Arcane Barrier - like Runic Protection, the amount it adds is pretty small - ok if you have the points but pretty underwhelming.Shadow Step - 1% per rank is pitifulBewilderment - good as-isEnchanter LineDefensive Enchantment - .5% per rank is pretty small - a red adorn increases max health by 10% - this increases 2.5% with 5 points spent. OK if you have extra points to spend but most of us don't.Mental Torment - good as-isSilent Thoughts - good as-isDistracted Mind - an enhancement to a spell that is completely and utterly broken and made non-functional. A complete waste of an AA.Dreamweaver's Focus - increasing Subjugation and Disruption is of very little importance to me or any mage. Another wasted AA.Spellblade's Enchantment - with our current Veloicty values, it puts melee classes into diminishing returns. An extra 5% per rank is very small if you count diminishing returns.Peace of Mind - good as-isCoercer LineCognizant Reduction - actually got a boost with the stat changes - now if we could just figure out which bosses use WIS as the primary stat, this might be more useful.Shield of Runes - not too bad especially now that we're doing more melee - would be an OK ability if I had extra points.Arcane Hatred - ok as-is but 1% per rank is pretty poor.Mental Blast - good as-isDepressed Thoughts - good as-isSoothing Mind - yet another enhancement to Amnesia - a completely broken spell that was intentionally deactivated but we still have these AAs that are wasted by enhancing a broken spell. Needs immediate fix.Psychic Blast - good as-isIntellectual Remedy - I think it's good as-is - others might disagree.

Luminata

04-18-2010, 07:04 AM

In addition to other points which have already been covered in this topic, I would like the option of having a pet throughout a zone be more viable.If there is no way that restrictions will be removed as to what mobs can be possessed, so we can once again possess boss mobs, I would love to see us have a similar ability to a conj tso aa, where we can save a possess essence. This would enable us to have a pet throughout a zone even once all valid mobs to possess are dead. The casting time could remain the same but at least we wouldn't miss half the fight or worse the whole fight when the target dies before Possess Essence has finished casting >.<

Luminata

04-18-2010, 07:59 AM

I have to say that my view of the Coercer class differs greatly from Hecula, I don't have time to post my breakdown of aa's, however I wanted to pick up on this as a small example, the aa is not even coercer specific but:<cite>Hecula wrote:</cite><blockquote>Enhance: Masters Strike - not a bad choice but it feels like the master strikes are getting phased out in current expansions and the amount it hits for is pretty low in today's standards.</blockquote>I had a Master strike hit for over 30k a couple of days ago, how high do you want it to hit? :oHe says that a lot of coercers are dropping STA for STR, but I have found a lot of us have actually dropped INT for STR.I also disagree with Coercive Healing being as potent as it has been, with Priests being thrown a huge amount of Cast speed and Potency on gear as well as group/raid buffs they, like us, are pretty much capped, I would like to see this being enhanced in the future. Maybe adding a Bane Warding type proc for all heals active on a player.There is more that could be said, but it's a Sunny Sunday so I'm gonna head out and hopefully not be smothered by the cloud of Volcanic ash that is hovering above the UK :p

LardLord

04-18-2010, 05:16 PM

<cite>Iskae wrote:</cite><blockquote>Basically the single largest issue I see is how, in a raid, half of our toolset becomes absolutely useless. </blockquote>I'd be thrilled with the class if we could consistently use our CC abilities. If a revamp is needed to make them usable 100% of the time but not overpowered, I'd be all for it.

Hecula

04-19-2010, 02:27 PM

<cite>Luminata@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have to say that my view of the Coercer class differs greatly from Hecula,</blockquote>I can accept that. I think most of us can agree on the major points - that in addition to many fairly useless spells, we have a lot of fairly useless AAs. The other stuff can be debated ad infinitum.Master Strike, although it hits well, has a limited set of things it affects and this is shrinking every expansion. How many boarfiends outside of RE and Moors have you seen? How many Roekilicks or whatever have you seen? When was the last time you used a master strike in a raid? I guess I'm not so concerned with the damage of master strike (although Hostage is proccing what, 8 hits of 10K+ each), just that its usefulness is greatly diminished because the ability hasn't been supported well in current tiers.Yes, I have seen the STR/STA/AGI spec. I would hardly call it widely adopted at this point - more of a "play around with it" spec at this point. Plus even the person who posted it said that they took the STA line more because there wasn't anything better to take - that to me isn't good for the clas. After GU56 I think many who were trying STR/AGI/STA will re-spec back to STR/AGI/INT.

Iskae

04-20-2010, 12:12 PM

<cite>Hecula wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, I have seen the STR/STA/AGI spec. I would hardly call it widely adopted at this point - more of a "play around with it" spec at this point. Plus even the person who posted it said that they took the STA line more because there wasn't anything better to take - that to me isn't good for the clas. After GU56 I think many who were trying STR/AGI/STA will re-spec back to STR/AGI/INT.</blockquote>Or Str/Sta/Agi/Int, which it the new "play around with it spec" =PI think Hecula hit a lot of it with the AA post.-CC is useless -Thus, (about) half of our toolset is useless -To follow this, any AA that enhances those abilities are uselessYet we continue to get more AAs (Example: SF Wis line) to enhance things most of us never use outside of the occasional solo excursion (In which case we cast it, see an IMMUNE message, and just DPS it down before it kills us).Almost all of our complaints as a class stem from the fact that so many spells/abilities have been rendered obsolete. -Either: A) Fix them so they have some use again, or B) Replace them with something else that we have a use forExamples of B being seen above, such as improving our melee DPS, so on and so forth. (Note that option B essentially requires a class revamp)I will be 100% honest, I am happy with the state of our class. However, I would be a lot happier if I felt more like a coercer and less like a watered down sorceror with group buffs.

Jeepned2

04-21-2010, 01:25 PM

Nothing personal folks, but I find these stickied posts useless for what they where intented for, a one source post for devs to "hear" our concerns. It's very apparent that if they read them at all, they carry no weight. Although I admit, I do love complaining on them with my fellow Coercers <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />. Here's what I see happening in our future.... nothing.... well more nerfs, but that will be it. We will eventually get back to where we where two years ago when many of us set aside our Coercers and played a different toon or in some cases quit the game all together. (I switched to my Troubadour but will not do that again, going from one buff bot to another is boring) I lost a few good Coercer friends back in the "dark days". Will we eventually be fixed? Sure, once our numbers of actice players drop so low that it effects raiding and group runs. When will that be? Don't know since I don't know everyone's tolerance level for putting up with our class being constantly crapped on. Not sure the new Senior Producer is going to be any help either, reading his meeting with Zam, appears he's worried more about getting more money from us through Station Exchange and new users. Rothgar? Don't think so, don't believe he's ever been a fan of any CC ability.So where does that leave us? No clue. I guess we just keep posting in places like this and hope someday for the best. The sad part is, so many Coercers have made great lists like this one, with a lot of though and concideration applied. Unfortunately it appears that it is all for naught. But I'm hoping that someday, someone at SoE will hear our screams.To the OP, nice work on your post, very informative and I guess that is the usefull part of these posts, for us Coercers to look at things that they might have not even thought about before. And that there are others who have the same concerns that we have.Oh and yes I to run the STR spec, but only for soloing and grouping. Still running the old standard set up for raiding. With all the new crappy gear, seems the healers are in need of healing crit buffs again.

Jeepned2

04-21-2010, 01:40 PM

<cite>Luminata@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have to say that my view of the Coercer class differs greatly from Hecula, I don't have time to post my breakdown of aa's, however I wanted to pick up on this as a small example, the aa is not even coercer specific but:<cite>Hecula wrote:</cite><blockquote>Enhance: Masters Strike - not a bad choice but it feels like the master strikes are getting phased out in current expansions and the amount it hits for is pretty low in today's standards.</blockquote>I had a Master strike hit for over 30k a couple of days ago, how high do you want it to hit? :oHe says that a lot of coercers are dropping STA for STR, but I have found a lot of us have actually dropped INT for STR.I also disagree with Coercive Healing being as potent as it has been, with Priests being thrown a huge amount of Cast speed and Potency on gear as well as group/raid buffs they, like us, are pretty much capped, I would like to see this being enhanced in the future. Maybe adding a Bane Warding type proc for all heals active on a player.There is more that could be said, but it's a Sunny Sunday so I'm gonna head out and hopefully not be smothered by the cloud of Volcanic ash that is hovering above the UK :p</blockquote>The problem with Master Strike is not the damage it deals but how few mobs in raid it effects. That are very few named mobs that this will hit.As for Coercive Healing, my thought is that it must still be fairly effective since I still have healers argueing over who would benefit more from it. With the massive revamp of Furies and Wardens, all of a sudden they think they could use it more effectively then the Mystic/Defiler. Unfortunately for them, it's my buff and I get to decide on who gets it.

Merowing

05-05-2010, 06:06 PM

i dunno if that idea was already placed but i miss atm the time the read everything:i would love to see that we can possess essence a mob with an no-zone option.so when we die, wipe in raid or the squishy possess essence is dieing again in any aoe we can recast that "saved" possess. in this new raidzones nowdays finding later on an trash mob to get an pet back is a pain. its a little bit like the ability that the necros got that they can put the pet in and out of the "bag". the cast must not be instant - the cast time even for this saved "this zone only" pet version can be the same like the cast for "get an possess essence".gothix

Cloakentuna

05-14-2010, 10:47 AM

The OP and others pretty accurately depict what is wrong with the Coercer class.Perhaps the most frustrating thing for me is having my hotbars full of spells that never get caster, some of which are modifiable by AAs (Amnesia, the single target stun, etc.), or are AAs themselves (Thought Snap though I haven't speccd for it in years).

Galthren

08-21-2010, 05:23 PM

Seeing as Illusionists are getting some of their mechanics being looked at, I also hope Coercers are getting some of our abilities being looked at as well. Specifically talking about our Possess Essence and how useless it is for us in raids because it dies so fast and we have no way of getting another pet back in the middle of a fight, Amnesia being completely useless, Thought Snap being broken since RoK expansion, Coercive Shout being much to be desired from as an SF endline ability when compared to Time Warp (especially if the new Time Warp Xelgad proposed goes live).Also, I would like to suggest to give Enraging Demeanor Red Adorn to give 10% potency to the target and the caster. That would eliminate the need for us Coercers to give Enraging Demeanor to ourselves just to get the benefit of the 10% potency and we can happily give Enraging Demeanor to other people when not in the MT group.

Galthren

08-24-2010, 02:07 AM

Would like to see an answer from Xelgad regarding our concerns. Except for the fix to Pet Buffs after casting Possess Essence, everything the OP has stated and other people have added is still revelant and has been for a couple of years now.

Galthren

08-26-2010, 12:21 AM

Helloooooo?

Jeepned2

08-26-2010, 12:23 PM

<cite>Galthren wrote:</cite><blockquote>Helloooooo?</blockquote>Not going to happen. Nice try though.

Galthren

08-26-2010, 03:44 PM

And why not? We've had issues for years now and not one Dev has said a peep about them.There are plenty of MMO's coming out soon and if the Dev's decide to ignore some of their player base, they will most likely lose them. So I really really hope they start paying attention to us as well as every other class out there.You see the World of Warcraft forums? Dev's are constantly paying attention to every single class and giving updates to all the changes to keep the classes not only playable but balanced. If the EQ2 devs would do the same here, people would notice they care just as well for their classes and player base and people might be more interested to stay and play.So yes, I'm gonna keep my hopes up that SoE pays attention to us and our concerns that we've had for a long time now. If not, i'll be parting ways then.

Nataliee

09-01-2010, 01:49 PM

I have to disagree with some of what's in the OP, particularly in light of the significant boost of usefulness that Illusionists are getting this morning. Hastened Mana... calling it underwhelming is pretty generous. When group members are walking around with 20K power, giving a couple hundred power is pretty /yawn. The AA is uselsess because the spell is useless; making Mana Cloak something along the lines of a spell we could cast once every few minutes to give an instant x% of our power to one group member would give the AA's some potential... each rank = 1% more power transferred. Coercive Shout... I agree with your assessment, especially considering how badass time warp is (squared, now that the TWimmunity is removed). They get TW and... we... get... a... *yawn*... sorry, I... zzzzzzzzzzz. As for Intellectual Remedy, I'm in the "others" category. This Gravitas-esque ability is a joke when put in the context of all other class abilities in the TSO:Shadows:Endline spot. For the cost it takes us to get this ability, shouldn't it be at least a tad more useful than [Gravitas (Apprentice)]? As for the utter uselessness of Amnesia and Mindbend, neither has had a spot on my hotbar in years, so I really couldn't care less what they do with either. The only time I even cast Amnesia is to jack with my MT, so personally, I think it should be reclassified as a "fun" spell. /shrug Every class has useless spells, I'm just glad that one of mine is a source of laughs now and again. As the big picture goes, I'm quite happy with the Coercer, with the exception of the silliness of Mana Cloak/Hastened Mana, the impracticalities of Channeled Focus, and the disparity of Intellectual Remedy to others of its type.

Jeepned2

09-06-2010, 10:04 PM

<cite>Galthren wrote:</cite><blockquote> If the EQ2 devs would do the same here, people would notice they care just as well for their classes and player base and people might be more interested to stay and play. Found this very funny for some reason.So yes, I'm gonna keep my hopes up that SoE pays attention to us and our concerns that we've had for a long time now. Do you know the difference between a dreamer and a planner? A planner actually thinks out how the future is going to turn out. A dreamer is someone who thinks they will hit the Lotto and thier life will be great forever after. Your chances are better at hitting the Lotto then this happening.</blockquote>

Jeepned2

09-07-2010, 02:52 AM

How do you tell when a class is dying? This post has been up since April and there is just now two full pages with only 15 different people posting. People have become so appathetic about Coercers that they won't even bother posting on what is suppose to be "the Thread" that SoE is going to read to look at class problems. And why are they so appathetic? Well each person has their own reasons. Mine are the following; years of voicing the same concerns and no resolution. They have fixed things that none of us had realized where a problem (IE fixed the all of our UI problems that I didn't know where problems). But for the most part have not fixed hardly any of the problems that we as a community see.The multiple spells and AA's that are useless and don't work is slowing growing in numbers, expecially for raiders. I have no root, mezz, charm, stun or stifle spells on my hot bars unless they also do damage. Those functions simply do not work in raid zones. So how many spells and AA's does that effect? A bunch. AA's like Snap Thought are time wasted programing. No one in thier right mind wasted a single AA on it. Many of those spells that aren't on my hot bar are Mastered. Why? Well they dropped during raiding and they were given to us with the expectation of them being scribed. For the most part it is a waste of time trying to explain to non Coercers why you could care less about certain masters. I always love the " Well you might..... " cause I cut them off and down immediately with "Why in the hell would I want a master spell that does nothing, effects nothing, doen't increase my ability in any way? And has ZERO effect to gameplay?"Have you ever wondered why we got a spell like Posessed Essence when we had Charm for years before it? It was like many other things like making every mob in a raid zone immune to stun, charm, mezz, etc.... It was to give us a slight feeling like we could still do CC. Talk about an illusion. How many people even run with a possessed essence in raid zones? Why waste the time when it is going to die quickly and possessed essence is not a quickly cast spell. You [Removed for Content] away a bunch of DPS while you are waiting for possess essence to cast, IF there is even a mob around that you can cast it on.Our DPS is slow to start falling again also, which to tell you the truth, it should have never been as high as it was. The problem with that is we again are slowly going to be reregulated to buff bots again. They are slowly taking us back to where we were before the "Great Uprising" This time though if I have to change my main again, I will not ever come back to Coercer. I will simply delete him this time. I am not going through the same crap I went through last time. When it gets to the point again where I don't even want to log on to my Coercer to go raid, then this time I will simply delete my coercer and move on to a different class. It got old last time explaining to Guildies how much non-fun it was to play a Coercer and that I had no intention of playing mine until the class got fixed. My guild went out and recruited another Coercer back then simply because I refused to play mine agian, for any reason. Why didn't I get kicked from the guild? Well cause my "new main" was a troub that they needed just as bad! If some of you newbies are wondering when all this "bad time" was, it started in fall of 2007 and went through until summer of 2008 when we finally got the "BIG FIX" that wasn't really a fix. They just gave us a crap load of DPS and said Tada, you are fixed. For many coercers that seemed to work. If nothing else it got everyone and thier mother to roll a new coercer and level it up. Now half of those who have a Coercer have no clue on how to play them. Oh well.How many groups have you run into in the last year allowed you to mezz? How many groups have you had that wanted you to mezz then constantly broke your mezz? No one knows how to act around CC anymore since SoE has destoyed the ability to do it. It's a lost art that is slowly disappearing. I thinks that's what they were hoping for. If CC slow disappears then Coercers and Illusionist will slow stop complaining about it not working. And then SoE will finally have won the no CC ability wars since no one will even remember what CC is, was and could have been.I'm very disappointed by the lack of posts in this section. The lack of post in general in the Coercer section is amazing to me. I guess for many the class is fine the way it is. For a few of us though, it hasn't been fine since LU13.

Encantador

09-07-2010, 05:22 AM

<cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>How do you tell when a class is dying? This post has been up since April and there is just now two full pages with only 15 different people posting. People have become so appathetic about Coercers that they won't even bother posting on what is suppose to be "the Thread" that SoE is going to read to look at class problems. And why are they so appathetic? Well each person has their own reasons. Mine are the following; years of voicing the same concerns and no resolution. They have fixed things that none of us had realized where a problem (IE fixed the all of our UI problems that I didn't know where problems). But for the most part have not fixed hardly any of the problems that we as a community see.The multiple spells and AA's that are useless and don't work is slowing growing in numbers, expecially for raiders. I have no root, mezz, charm, stun or stifle spells on my hot bars unless they also do damage. Those functions simply do not work in raid zones. So how many spells and AA's does that effect? A bunch. AA's like Snap Thought are time wasted programing. No one in thier right mind wasted a single AA on it. Many of those spells that aren't on my hot bar are Mastered. Why? Well they dropped during raiding and they were given to us with the expectation of them being scribed. For the most part it is a waste of time trying to explain to non Coercers why you could care less about certain masters. I always love the " Well you might..... " cause I cut them off and down immediately with "Why in the hell would I want a master spell that does nothing, effects nothing, doen't increase my ability in any way? And has ZERO effect to gameplay?"Have you ever wondered why we got a spell like Posessed Essence when we had Charm for years before it? It was like many other things like making every mob in a raid zone immune to stun, charm, mezz, etc.... It was to give us a slight feeling like we could still do CC. Talk about an illusion. How many people even run with a possessed essence in raid zones? Why waste the time when it is going to die quickly and possessed essence is not a quickly cast spell. You [Removed for Content] away a bunch of DPS while you are waiting for possess essence to cast, IF there is even a mob around that you can cast it on.Our DPS is slow to start falling again also, which to tell you the truth, it should have never been as high as it was. The problem with that is we again are slowly going to be reregulated to buff bots again. They are slowly taking us back to where we were before the "Great Uprising" This time though if I have to change my main again, I will not ever come back to Coercer. I will simply delete him this time. I am not going through the same crap I went through last time. When it gets to the point again where I don't even want to log on to my Coercer to go raid, then this time I will simply delete my coercer and move on to a different class. It got old last time explaining to Guildies how much non-fun it was to play a Coercer and that I had no intention of playing mine until the class got fixed. My guild went out and recruited another Coercer back then simply because I refused to play mine agian, for any reason. Why didn't I get kicked from the guild? Well cause my "new main" was a troub that they needed just as bad! If some of you newbies are wondering when all this "bad time" was, it started in fall of 2007 and went through until summer of 2008 when we finally got the "BIG FIX" that wasn't really a fix. They just gave us a crap load of DPS and said Tada, you are fixed. For many coercers that seemed to work. If nothing else it got everyone and thier mother to roll a new coercer and level it up. Now half of those who have a Coercer have no clue on how to play them. Oh well.How many groups have you run into in the last year allowed you to mezz? How many groups have you had that wanted you to mezz then constantly broke your mezz? No one knows how to act around CC anymore since SoE has destoyed the ability to do it. It's a lost art that is slowly disappearing. I thinks that's what they were hoping for. If CC slow disappears then Coercers and Illusionist will slow stop complaining about it not working. And then SoE will finally have won the no CC ability wars since no one will even remember what CC is, was and could have been.I'm very disappointed by the lack of posts in this section. The lack of post in general in the Coercer section is amazing to me. I guess for many the class is fine the way it is. For a few of us though, it hasn't been fine since LU13.</blockquote>Count me as one of the apathetic. Been a coercer since day one. Seen it all before. Class has never been 'right'. Fed up with raising the same concerns over and over. I rolled this class to do CC, charm, buff others, and do moderate ranged DPS. CC is useless except to solo, charm is completely useless, and buffs are becoming ever more irrelevant. Well at least I got the moderate DPS. There are so many things I could raise but nothing would be done about them so why bother? Coercers click masses of spells to act like half a sorceror with power management ... bleh!So many mechanics have worse affects for enchanters than other classes its just not funny. For exampe, interrupts and stuns. Just a lost spell cast or two for other casters. For an enchanter it is this and a loss of casting speed. Root/CC immunity? To other mages an irritation, they just throw up their manaward or use a tank pet and continue on.LOL I can feel my discontent growing again. This is in danger of becoming a long rant on the many things I think I wrong. When all I really want to say is I could not agree more with the above quote!

Jeepned2

09-07-2010, 07:13 PM

Just noticed all the typos in my post. Sorry about that. Hope I got my point across anyway. Guess I shouldn't post at 11:00 PM if I want to make sense and to spell stuff correctly. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />. Thanks for responding though Encantador and hope to see a few more responses soon.

Jeepned2

09-08-2010, 04:16 PM

Something else that SoE has done that screws us over... not updating many of our spells. Just thought that maybe Enraging Demeanor and Velocity might actually get an updated some day. Then again, maybe not.

Dreadpatch

09-08-2010, 05:06 PM

I agree with certain points and disagree with many here. This is a tough class to balance. Looking back to Kingdon of Sky, we were extremely powerful in group and solo content, and a raid needed exactly one of us in the MT group. Slowly we have transitioned to a class with very strong group buffs, power regen second to none, and powerful tier 2 dps. While I certainly miss the days of being needed to finish a Nizara or maybe an Unrest, this class is in no way shape or form broken. Other classes deserve to be looked at far in advance of a coercer. I for one have my raiding coercer with 250 aa's and I think he's pretty nice. Does solid dps and brings a lot of great buffs to the table. Things I would like to see fixed: Amnesia- Currently completely useless. I don't see why it can't be used like it used to be to at least reset a raid mob. Easy enough to keep off my hotbar, as many classes have spells that aren't very valuable. Channeled Focus- I'm not asking for the world here, but a slight reduction on recast would be pretty cool. 7 minutes is a bit harsh, and there are a lot more powerful spells out there that have a lower recast. 4 minutes would be great even 5, but 7 is high. This, afterall, is supposed to be our end line of end lines so it should be powerful. Mezzes- Rarely needed anymore, breathe some life into them by adding maybe a small debuff element. Charm- I'm not really sure what to say about this one. Used to be the most coveted spell we have, now I won one off a drop and was tempted to see if I could sell it to some sucker for platz. I decided to keep it, but I NEVER use it. I don't really even see what the point of it is anymore, a charmed pet should be doing some sick damage if you're soloing is all I have to say. A nice to have would be a possessed essence you could save, like the illy has their mirror image. I think this would be quite cool. This way when your pet dies in raid, which it inevitably will, you can recast it. I don't really think the class is broken. The changes I see above would be nice, but I still love my coercer.

Jeepned2

09-08-2010, 09:06 PM

<cite>Elusion@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree with certain points and disagree with many here. This is a tough class to balance. Looking back to Kingdon of Sky, we were extremely powerful in group and solo content, and a raid needed exactly one of us in the MT group. A tough class to balance? Yes. But making no attempt at it is unexcuable. No real attempt has EVER been attempted and don't think SoE will ever attempt it. BTW, they still need exactly one of us and in the MT group. For the most part I'm not addressing group and solo content since I almost never play mine in that format anymore. Like I said before, I log him on to raid, raid then log off. I don't even bother to group or solo him anymore. There are better and more fun classes for that type of play. Slowly we have transitioned to a class with very strong group buffs, power regen second to none, and powerful tier 2 dps. While I certainly miss the days of being needed to finish a Nizara or maybe an Unrest, this class is in no way shape or form broken. Broken? I guess that depends on you view of what the class is compared to what it was suppose to be. At least to those of us who have had our Coercers for years. Is it nice that we have strong buffs, sure. Power regen second to none? We where always suppose to have that. And the powerful Tier 2 dps? That was given to us in hopes that we would shut up about the lack of CC. If I was concerned about Tier 2 dps, I'll raid on a Wizard. So you don't think the class is broken...where I think the class is so out of whack that it's not even funny. It's not that Coercers currently can't do anything important for the raid, it that we don't do what we where suppose to do for the raid. That is the difference. And for some of us it is a huge difference. It has nothing to do with the class being broken, it has everything to do with the class being hijacked away from the stuff we where suppose to do. Other classes deserve to be looked at far in advance of a coercer. I for one have my raiding coercer with 250 aa's and I think he's pretty nice. Does solid dps and brings a lot of great buffs to the table. Again, we just happend to disagree what is a Coercer suppose to be. If you think that having good buffs, great mana regen and really good DPS is all that a Coercer needs then we will simply have to agree to disagree. Personally I find the Coercer completely unexceptable as it currently is. If SoE has made you happy by buying you off with a bunch of DPS then so be it. Things I would like to see fixed: Amnesia- Currently completely useless. I don't see why it can't be used like it used to be to at least reset a raid mob. Easy enough to keep off my hotbar, as many classes have spells that aren't very valuable. Channeled Focus- I'm not asking for the world here, but a slight reduction on recast would be pretty cool. 7 minutes is a bit harsh, and there are a lot more powerful spells out there that have a lower recast. 4 minutes would be great even 5, but 7 is high. This, afterall, is supposed to be our end line of end lines so it should be powerful. </blockquote><blockquote>Mezzes- Rarely needed anymore, breathe some life into them by adding maybe a small debuff element. Charm- I'm not really sure what to say about this one. Used to be the most coveted spell we have, now I won one off a drop and was tempted to see if I could sell it to some sucker for platz. I decided to keep it, but I NEVER use it. I don't really even see what the point of it is anymore, a charmed pet should be doing some sick damage if you're soloing is all I have to say. There are a few others that they may want to look at. Spells that stun, stifle, and daze, Snap Thought, and spells that still do mana drain on mobs (for what reason? Only SoE knows)</blockquote><blockquote> A nice to have would be a possessed essence you could save, like the illy has their mirror image. I think this would be quite cool. This way when your pet dies in raid, which it inevitably will, you can recast it. Don't see this happening. Why? Because our DPS is already too high for our class. On most fights many of us are still either beating or are right beside Wizards and Warlocks on DPS. We are beating Swashys and Brigands and only the summoners and Assassins are consistantly beating us on the parse. I don't really think the class is broken. The changes I see above would be nice, but I still love my coercer. I too love my Coercer. That's is why it is so painful to see how SoE over the last several years has crapped all over it. Again broken? If you don't think it is now then I'll never convence you otherwise. So I leave it at the quota from SoE on the EQ2Players page describing what a Coercer does; "The Coercer is capable of subduing enemies, sending them into a paralyzing state of fascination or causing them to flee in uncontrollable terror. Master of domination, Coercers can subjugate the mind of another, taking complete control and forcing an unwitting creature to do their bidding." That is word for word right from the EQ2Players Coercer page. Not bad considering we no longer have any of those abilities, especially those of us who raid. False advertising or out right lie? Guess depends on if you think the class is broken or not.</blockquote>

Dreadpatch

09-09-2010, 02:41 PM

Staven, I've been playing a coercer for a very very long time, so I definitely understand what you are saying. I too would like to be less dps and more what we were originally intended to be, I'm not even trying to argue that. I'm also realistic.... We bring a lot to the table right now, I own in solo and group content and bring plenty to a raid. My guild uses 3 coercers in our raids and one Illy. What I'm trying to say is that our CC will still work, they just simply need to add some content that we need to use it on. I know before my guild was all raid geared out, Cella was next to impossible without a chanter. That's tough to balance because in order to create mobs in heroic instances that need to be mezzed, you would have to have several linked mobs with long agro ranges actually able to kill a MT (with good gear). This brings two issues into consideration: 1) These zones would generally not be accessable to lower geared folks in order to make them difficult to require mezzing mobs. 2) All tanks & healers are pretty much OP at this point. No one is going to sit there and have you mezz mobs when you can just aoe burn them down, it's faster. I guess the easy solution would be to make the mobs charmable (cept for names) cuz most people wouldn't have you use it anyways, and even if they did it would be a weaker group so who cares if you have that extra edge. As far as raiding goes, there were always few mobs that CC was any good for. Trak back in the day, can't remember her name, but one of the dragon's in Veeshan's Peak. In raids, based on my time raiding in KOS, I was pretty much a buff bot with some power regen for the MT group. DPS was decided by spamming hemmorage and I occassionally had to use amnesia to reset a mob. As far as raiding goes, I like it 10 times more than I used to back in the KoS days. All they have to do is add some more raid zones with heroic adds to give you comething to CC. The days of you being able to charm/kill instances by yourself are probably over and will never be back. Look at what you do have, not what you don't. There are classes out there that can't even fill a role period. How many rangers do you see raiding? Illy's? One per raid maybe in the mage group. Those classes need love FIRST, we can get ours when those are taken care of.

Jeepned2

09-09-2010, 10:08 PM

Yea, I've been playing for a long time myself. Difference is you are will to compromise with SoE and I no longer am. That's why I'm just sitting here waiting on someone, somewhere to finally put out a different MMORG that is worth playing. Someone mentioned Eve, but sorry, just not feeling it there. I log on, raid, log off. My enthusiasm level for EQ2 now is measured by the height of an ant's rear end. If it wasn't for so many friends in my guild I would have already been gone.The neglect and stupid changes to the Coercer class is stunning to me. To ruin a class that was one of the most fun to play is just almost criminal. But oh well. Really just wanted to vent and to get more of the community to start being active again. There have be honest questions asked in the Coercer section that has gone unanswered for months when I know there has to be at least a 100 different opinions on them. That's who we are <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />.And no, I don't see CC ever coming back for any reason. Mostly because if it did, who remembers how to do it right? SoE has made sure that knowledge is dying with every older Coercer that quits the game.And unfortunately to show how low much I have lost the love for this game, I really don't care anymore how few Rangers, Illies, Bruisers etc..... aren't getting to raid. That's thier problem, a problem I care zero about. They have thier own forums to complain about that very subject in. Simply put, not my problem, not my concern. If it works out that raids become 24 coercers, then so be it.

Loadtoads

11-29-2010, 08:03 PM

<cite>Iskae wrote:</cite><blockquote>Basically the single largest issue I see is how, in a raid, half of our toolset becomes absolutely useless. Mezzes, stuns, charms, etc. have absolutely no use in a raid, leaving us as power management/DPS (Granted, we do both of these things decently). No other class faces these kinds of losses when raiding. It nullifies the extra effects of 3 of our damage spells (Ego Shock, Silence, Shock Wave), 7 other spells (Single/group stun, sigle/group mez, AE fear, root, Amnesia), as well as a lot of AAs directed towards enhancing those spells.The terrifying part is, we're now losing these spells usefulness in solo/group content as well, as a lot of mobs, since TSO and especially in SF, are control immune.This needs to change. The entire point of our class has been lost, since control spells are of limited to no usefulness now.The majority of other issues (Amnesia being useless, Thoughtsnap being useless, etc.) all stem from the major issue of our crowd control abilities being taken away from us, as apparently they are OP.If they were still OP, I could understand this, but we now solo less effectively than a lot of other classes. A conji friend of mine routinely solos T9/T8 zones for mutables, and an SK friend of mine does the same thing. Yet, I cannot because if I attempt to root/stun/stifle the mob, I see an "IMMUNE" message and the mob proceeds to kill me, as such spells are my only real way of survival in such a situation.Either remove the immunities or change the spells, but dont leave them as useless abilities only useful on solo mobs, where they aren't needed.</blockquote>Still nothing has changed, Still I have 1 and 1/2 of hotbars of spells I don't/can't use. I've seen folks bring up issues in our forums for over the past year with no responses. I'm starting to think no one cares.

Kaant

12-16-2010, 07:07 PM

Created my coercer in 2005 and has been my main until recently. I agree they were alot more fun to play back in the day when CC was relevant. A good coercer could take a fair group and turn it into a great group. Nowadays, everyone it seems has a "pocket coercer" they created for raiding or just to round out a group at the last minute because they need a buff bot. I'm willing to bet that these posers don't really know how to effectively use CC. Since these players don't and probably have never relied on them, they are not missing them too much.Most non-coercers likely want our buffs as they benifited directly from them, but back in the day I knew that our ability to slow an encounter down to a speed that a group could handle was more improtant. The way I see it, to make CC more relevant to the game is to have more content driven towards contested heroic dungeons with encounters you can't just burn your way though. Raids are fun, but not nearly as fun as they used to be. I'd be much happier using CC in groups than as a buff bot in a raid.

Jeepned2

12-21-2010, 10:34 PM

<cite>Kaant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Raids are fun, but not nearly as fun as they used to be.</blockquote>Raids now are boring, but I still do them since all my friends are in the raiding guild that I'm a member of. Today's raiders are only good if they have the healers who can coordinate curse cures. It's all about having great healers and one or two tanks. The rest of the raid can be subpar with the exception of a couple of fights that require high dps. Curse cure left, curse cure right, curse cure up the middle..... Success!!! yeah..so much fun. In the mean time we are burning out healers and are now starting to lose some of the old guard good ones. SoE's total lack of imagination for raids is getting to the point of almost being humerous. But since they took away CC, it starts to limit you on how imaginative you can get. Oh well.

Darkest Knight

08-18-2011, 12:15 PM

Some thoughts: - Breeze and Mind's Eye:Both do not regen enough to be worth casting by themselves. They are woefully out-of-date. A fix would be to convert the power regenerated from a fixed number to a percentage.This would solve their inadequacy right now and help keep the spells meaningful for the coming years.This would also help out Illusionists who struggle very much with enounters that have 400% more power consumed with each cast. - AmnesiaIt is generally not useful. Raid encounters are Immune entirely. Mobs hit too hard as-is for that spell to be worth the rish of a rageing mob running around your group in Heroic instances. - MesmerizeI have not seen an encounter yet where a mob would justifiably need to be mezzed since Nexona. there is simply no need for this spell anymore. as a side note, mobs are immune in all the drunder zones to ALL forms of CC(stun, Mez, Charm). - CharmThe last time i charmed a mob was by chance on what would have been a wipe in TOFS x2 on Val Sara. Needless to say that was 'fixed'. my complaint is there is no use for it in raids or in any difficult Heroic instance. All the mobs are immune. - Coercive ShoutIt is generally not useful in both Heroic instances and raid encounters and when compaired to the SF class endline for Illusionists, it is completely Underpowered. I propose something along the same lines as Illusionists, but tailored to Healers possibly. or Melee classes in general. 5 seconds of double potency on a heal? 5 Seconds of a +mega threat for fighters and Flurry ? Negative hate and Flurry for Scouts ?In any raid encounter with Co-operative strike, casting C shout is a raid wiping ability. Tank gets shotted and raid goes splat.Generally not useful. - Channeled FocusGenerally not useful due to Incredable recast. Base recast is beyond rediculous. It needs to be halved or the ability needs to be completely re-worked to some other function. - Root-See Mesmerize. -Cannibalize ThoughtsSuffers from the same problem as Breeze, needs to be a percentage regeneration. -Posess Essence20 meter range makes it something you cannot use on any trash mob in DoV raid zones without calling attention to yourself from the mob. While shared pet stats do make it do more damage, any time the mob sneezes, the PE dies and takes your group wards with it. Unless you're doing a easy mob, or one with silly gimpy AE's, the pet will go splat.Suggestion to fix- Allow longer range for posession, 35-50 metersAE immunity for pets down the Empathy line somewhere.Thats all I have for the time being. Feel free to disagree, but these opinions come from a Coercer doing Hardmode DoV raid zones and Drunder instances. If you arent in the same position, im sure some of my concerns seems un-warranted. These are the problems i see with the class and i have taken the time to lay them out as i see them so that perhapse a wandering Dev will take Notice.