HAHAHA Over the top changes once again!! [Archive]

Disma

04-14-2010, 12:27 AM

Resists are so broken now its laughable. We are back to our roots now at least Everscout and with TSO Evercrusaders but hey whatever. Is anyone else tired of these over the top changes all the time? Can we get a little change here and there without this nerf to the floor reaction that seems to always happen?I know mages were doing too much damage but now if you have mages on your team and scouts on the other you should take a truancy and save yourself the time. Did scouts get a buff as well because I see them doing just as much damage as the mages before the nerf so they the next in line to have damage nerfed so we can all stand int he middle and hit each other with no deaths until time runs out? I have to say I am really tired of the over the top fixes serioulsy take some time and really do some math or something this is seriously stupid I see templars parsing higher than mages its funny but wrong.So if you really want everyone to be Crusaders/Druids/Rogue/Predator why not just have those classes and get rid of the others??

Neskonlith

04-14-2010, 12:38 AM

<cite>Dismall@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Resists are so broken now its laughable.</blockquote>What lvl BeeGees?Parses, please.<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=476404">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=476404</a>

Disma

04-14-2010, 12:48 AM

I was in some level 90 BGs and I dont have parses and prolly wont any time soon. I play a guardian and was just watching as casters were completely and insanely overun by people. I saw a templar 2 shot a wizard it was funny but wrong. The caster was in full 90 BG gear no clue what the temp had on though. Casters I have played with before who toped parses with 300K + damage doing like 50k now and scouts are up at the top doing 300K+ but its ok I guess cause Crusaders can use Divine aura to avoid those attacks.Also I play a guard and I know casters hit hard before and scouts were doing well too but now mages are nerfed in the dirt and scouts seem to got a bit of a buff as they are now the ones doing 300k+ but hey w/e I am just waiting for the time when we are all hitting each other with sticks and we are all the same class hitting one ability and people still crying that someone else is OP.If you want everyone to play Crusaders/Rogues/Predators/Druids just get rid of the other classes!!!edited cause the typo bug was crawlin on my keyboard!!

Disma

04-14-2010, 02:10 AM

Here is a result from a BG I just did at level 80. The screenshots that follow are from the SAME BG but will be SORTED differently:DAMAGE INFLICTED (how much damage you did to others during the match):<img src="http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx321/eq2doc/DamageInflicted.jpg?t=1271220838" width="720" height="667" />A PALADIN(471,208 damage)/ SHADOWKNIGHT(380,263 damage) (almost double the 3rd person on the parse) Tank class far surpassing dps classes!?!?!?!?!?!?!?Sorted by DAMAGE RECIEVED: (how much damage was done to you during the match)<img src="http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx321/eq2doc/DamageRecieved.jpg?t=1271221001" width="711" height="661" />SHADOWKNIGHT(in 2nd 251,292 ; 3rd 221,751) / PALADIN in 5th(184,095 damage taken)Understandable since they are considred tank classes.Now lets take a look at heals shall we?HEALING GIVEN: (how much you healed yourself and others during the match)<img src="http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx321/eq2doc/HealingRecieved.jpg?t=1271221551" width="708" height="654" />PALADIN 2nd (411,980 healing) / SHADOWKNIGHT 3rd (271,932 healing)These are supposed to be tank classes not DPS/HEAL/TANK and the casters were the biggest threat to BGs??? I just do not understand. With the resist changes why are Crusaders still able to do this much damage???? And why the hell can they heal so much???I guess we are all supposed to just roll Cursaders and play we can all heal dps and tank who needs any other class??I just do not understand why people do not see that crusaders are the most insanely overpowered class in the game right now.And one more question:If wizards/warlocks are not dps classes then what are they??? They have no utility no survivability so what are they there for if they don't do damage????edited to make it easier to read

TsarRasput

04-14-2010, 03:56 AM

<blockquote>If wizards/warlocks are not dps classes then what are they??? They have no utility no survivability so what are they there for if they don't do damage????</blockquote>Quoted for Emphasis.... If a sorcerer isn't dps they have no use. and with the resist "fixes" we can't do that. My Ice Comet hits on average for 3k now, that's with 80%+ crit bonus, 50%+ potency and when I click on PVP stats, it shows a max of 14k. I'm sorry that's broken. and needs to be fixed

Fussi

04-14-2010, 04:31 AM

<cite>TsarRasputin wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>If wizards/warlocks are not dps classes then what are they??? They have no utility no survivability so what are they there for if they don't do damage????</blockquote>Quoted for Emphasis.... If a sorcerer isn't dps they have no use. and with the resist "fixes" we can't do that. My Ice Comet hits on average for 3k now, that's with 80%+ crit bonus, 50%+ potency and when I click on PVP stats, it shows a max of 14k. I'm sorry that's broken. and needs to be fixed</blockquote>QFE as well. If the main reason for the nerf was undergeared players crying about being one shotted by a sorcerer, the obvious solution would be to do bg's to get better toughness gear. Don't nerf sorc just because some people aren't geared up enough to take the hits or are not good enough players to be able to hold their own against us. I agree there were some aspects of sorc classes that were op'ed such as our dark aggravation spell, but that doesn't mean you should give us t3 dps and keep our survivabilty sub par. T1 dps should always be at the top of the list of damage dealt. When a tank is doing 4x the damage a T1 dps is doing, something is seriously wrong. Congratulations on seriously screwing up this "fix". It shows how much thought you guys put into issues such as this.

Taldier

04-14-2010, 04:35 AM

<cite>Dismall@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here is a result from a BG I just did at level 80. The screenshots that follow are from the SAME BG but will be SORTED differently: DAMAGE INFLICTED (how much damage you did to others during the match):<img src="http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx321/eq2doc/DamageInflicted.jpg?t=1271220838" width="720" height="667" />A PALADIN(471,208 damage)/ SHADOWKNIGHT(380,263 damage) (almost double the 3rd person on the parse) Tank class far surpassing dps classes!?!?!?!?!?!?!?These are supposed to be tank classes not DPS/HEAL/TANK and the casters were the biggest threat to BGs??? I just do not understand. With the resist changes why are Crusaders still able to do this much damage???? And why the hell can they heal so much??? I guess we are all supposed to just roll Cursaders and play we can all heal dps and tank who needs any other class?? I just do not understand why people do not see that crusaders are the most insanely overpowered class in the game right now. And one more question: If wizards/warlocks are not dps classes then what are they??? They have no utility no survivability so what are they there for if they don't do damage????</blockquote>I was seeing crusaders top bg parses before the change. Crusaders do the majority of their damage from spells just like sorcs. Their damage was decreased by the same amount.Most likely everyone is just used to crusaders being overpowered because they've been op since tso release and soe has basically said that they arent going to change it.And yeah, having fully geared guardians being instantly oneshot by casters because they cast a group taunt is more relevant to balance than crusaders who stand in the middle of a group of idiots to shoot their parses through the roof.I see multiple sorcs and summoners before the first scout on that damage parse so obviously they cant have been nerfed to hard.

Callim

04-14-2010, 06:33 AM

My damage has been reduced tremendously with the resist fix, only use now in casting most of my spells is to trigger the taunt portion of seething hatred, HT crits for 1-3k, single nuke for 200-600, etc.The reason the damage is so high is usually because when you stand in the middle of a x2 and have a decent healer your DS's and aoes do a ton of damage, despite not really spiking or killing anyone.Same for heals, much of it is barrier or sparkling shield type procs, or in my case, a huge portion is the belt of light or darkness proc, believe me it adds up.As for conjies...well they are embarassing to play now the damage is so low, primary nuke almost never breaks 800, before it was doing 2-3k.

bks6721

04-14-2010, 08:28 AM

<cite>Taldier@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dismall@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here is a result from a BG I just did at level 80. The screenshots that follow are from the SAME BG but will be SORTED differently: DAMAGE INFLICTED (how much damage you did to others during the match):<img src="http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx321/eq2doc/DamageInflicted.jpg?t=1271220838" width="720" height="667" />A PALADIN(471,208 damage)/ SHADOWKNIGHT(380,263 damage) (almost double the 3rd person on the parse) Tank class far surpassing dps classes!?!?!?!?!?!?!?These are supposed to be tank classes not DPS/HEAL/TANK and the casters were the biggest threat to BGs??? I just do not understand. With the resist changes why are Crusaders still able to do this much damage???? And why the hell can they heal so much??? I guess we are all supposed to just roll Cursaders and play we can all heal dps and tank who needs any other class?? I just do not understand why people do not see that crusaders are the most insanely overpowered class in the game right now. And one more question: If wizards/warlocks are not dps classes then what are they??? They have no utility no survivability so what are they there for if they don't do damage????</blockquote>I was seeing crusaders top bg parses before the change. Crusaders do the majority of their damage from spells just like sorcs. Their damage was decreased by the same amount.Most likely everyone is just used to crusaders being overpowered because they've been op since tso release and soe has basically said that they arent going to change it.And yeah, having fully geared guardians being instantly oneshot by casters because they cast a group taunt is more relevant to balance than crusaders who stand in the middle of a group of idiots to shoot their parses through the roof.I see multiple sorcs and summoners before the first scout on that damage parse so obviously they cant have been nerfed to hard.</blockquote>so you think its "normal" and that a crusader should be doing MORE than double the dps of a T1 DPS class? Take another look at the parse he posted. The top casters did LESS than half the damage of a tank. IF you think that is balanced you must be a SOE plant.

Cerulien

04-14-2010, 11:15 AM

<cite>Jjay@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>so you think its "normal" and that a crusader should be doing MORE than double the dps of a T1 DPS class? Take another look at the parse he posted. The top casters did LESS than half the damage of a tank. IF you think that is balanced you must be a SOE plant.</blockquote>The crusaders did not do more than double the lock and the conjy. There are just too many variables on different toons for one parse to mean much. One thing that I did notice on this one...the team that had the top four damage parses and 6 of the top 8....lost the match! Teamwork ftw (doubly surprising because Rahjin's team is usually super organized - otoh, he used to double the next lower damage parse in every match).

AziBam

04-14-2010, 12:42 PM

This isn't a dig at the OP. I just find it interesting to see what other people prioritize when reviewing the score windows. The OP didn't sort by either of the two I pay most attention to which are kills and kill shots. I see that neither of the two crusaders in question topped either of those categories. To me, outgoing damage is something I take a peek at but really don't pay much attention to. I could do a ton of damage zw but it really doesn't matter if my opponents don't end up dead at the end of if.That said, I'm a bit skeered to run my lock in the BGs tonight. I didn't have a chance last night due to raiding.

Darkor

04-14-2010, 12:48 PM

BG Parses are not always accurate as you never know who actually spend their time doing whatever but im happy soe finally reacted to the broken resists.

Neskonlith

04-14-2010, 12:50 PM

<cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>This isn't a dig at the OP. I just find it interesting to see what other people prioritize when reviewing the score windows. The OP didn't sort by either of the two I pay most attention to which are kills and kill shots. I see that neither of the two crusaders in question topped either of those categories. To me, outgoing damage is something I take a peek at but really don't pay much attention to. I could do a ton of damage zw but it really doesn't matter if my opponents don't end up dead at the end of if.That said, I'm a bit skeered to run my lock in the BGs tonight. I didn't have a chance last night due to raiding.</blockquote>One big reason for looking at the damage inflicted is to try to see how much the spell resists fix has changed the damage output of casters relative to everyone else in the contest. Before the fix, STA and resists were ineffective at mitigating damage, which is why some casters were able to run solo and melt groups.

Taldier

04-14-2010, 01:07 PM

<cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>This isn't a dig at the OP. I just find it interesting to see what other people prioritize when reviewing the score windows. The OP didn't sort by either of the two I pay most attention to which are kills and kill shots. I see that neither of the two crusaders in question topped either of those categories. To me, outgoing damage is something I take a peek at but really don't pay much attention to. I could do a ton of damage zw but it really doesn't matter if my opponents don't end up dead at the end of if.That said, I'm a bit skeered to run my lock in the BGs tonight. I didn't have a chance last night due to raiding.</blockquote>One big reason for looking at the damage inflicted is to try to see how much the spell resists fix has changed the damage output of casters relative to everyone else in the contest. Before the fix, STA and resists were ineffective at mitigating damage, which is why some casters were able to run solo and melt groups.</blockquote>The problem is that bg parses, especially smugglers are going to be broken. Those crusaders can fluff up their parses by standing still in a giant melee fight that lasts the entire match without anyone dying. The mages are spending time running from place to place and killing players as they get to them.This is why sorting by killshots is more useful for ranking casters.

Neskonlith

04-14-2010, 01:14 PM

<cite>Taldier@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is why sorting by killshots is more useful for ranking casters.</blockquote>Whichever way you look at the parses, there is useful information to be gleaned.In my <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=476404" target="_blank">scout dps thread</a>, I posted both the SOE and the ACT information so that players can see both character and zw performance under the new resists.

Disma

04-14-2010, 02:20 PM

I did not sort by killshots because its is useless. A person can stand there and get someone to 1% health then someone else melees or casts on them and gets the kill credit so why even sort by that?I did not use ACT because ACT requires you to be in a range of the people dealing and recieving damage and is useless you can post what ACT is registering which is relative to where you are in the zone and the BG scorecard uses the logs from the zone to post results I am sure which is exactly what ACT does so why would it be inaccurate?ACT will probably be completely different than what the BG results say because you weren't always right next to everyone all the time.If you are too far away ACT will not parse correctly and does not parse the entire fight for the entire zone so it is useless so bash my post if you like because I did not post something useless. I am sure the BG results use the exact same logs that ACT would use if it were in range so I do not see how you think that it is incorrect, but w/e.And if you think a tank class should be on top for dps/heals/damage recieved then fine w/e lets all roll crusaders and get rid of the other classes who needs them.And it is also clear that the sorcs got hit the hardest by this nerf because they would one shot people which i agree they should not do but if you nerf their damage output in the ground what are they there for support? And scouts and crusaders should now be able to do what casters were able to do?I just do not understand this fix.... because basically it was a trade off instead of casters taking out groups now Crusaders are wow big difference

ailen

04-14-2010, 02:23 PM

Parses don't mean much. Honestly. The only accurate way to represent what is happening in battlegrounds is completely skewed by character perception.Crusaders are the most overpowered classes in the game, no doubt.. but..I dont think them topping the damage parses is because they're throwing out damage at a faster rate, its more affected by their inability to be killed. You're alive longer means you're going to do more dps on a battleground parse. Same goes for heals... completelyThe only way to think about it is to look at it for what you see in the matches.2-3 people beating on a healer by himself and he doesn't die... == OP. Crusader running into a GROUP of people, killing a few or perhaps even killing them all = OP. Sorcerers taking on a GROUP of people and killing a few before they die = OP.The battlegrounds parse screen, in my opinion should be removed.

Alima_Tunare

04-14-2010, 02:36 PM

Y'all need to calm down lol. Its like someone said on the test forums...its very hard to test with the average 9 players online and you sure arent gonna get the OP classes to copy over to test what will be a nerf to their class. It was better to put in live and see what happens and then adjust. If warlocks are being blown up atm, good, it feels great getting a little revenge in while they readjust.Personally I didnt like the idea of resist changes. Our biggest problem in BGs is that many dont have the gear yet. Those that do are creaming our corn atm and its gonna hurt for a long time working those 300 BGs to get our shiz. But if they start adjusting resists and spell damage, Id rather see that after people have the gear so its level ground. At the moment you have a bulldozer fighting a volkswagon and saying we need changes.

Disma

04-14-2010, 02:37 PM

To be honest a tank should be the first person to die if they are doing their job properly and taunting. Them living longer should not almost double the parse of the closest caster. They definately should not be healing for 400k and be second on the heal parse as a tank class that is just insane.The caster is also a warlock which is built for encounter dps they should top the parse in just about every BG because they have the most aoes and are supposed to be T1 dps not T2 behind a tank class.I just dont understand how Crusaders can be top 5 on Heals/DPS/Damage Taken and nobody cares but mages top the damage parse BECAUSE THEY ARE A DPS CLASS and everyone wants a change. Should mages take out an entire group no, but they should not be T3 dps either.

ailen

04-14-2010, 02:40 PM

Because for the most part, Crusaders weren't 1 shotting entire groups.while that is a gross exaggeration, it is sort of true. Ask any decently geared warlock if they could wreck a group more times than not, and if they're honest, they'd have to say yes.Hopefully crusaders will get the nerf they deserve but sadly I'd rather deal with them 2nd than the insanty that was going on for the past couple of months.

Neskonlith

04-14-2010, 02:50 PM

<cite>Dismall@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I did not use ACT because ACT requires you to be in a range of the people dealing and recieving damage and is useless you can post what ACT is registering which is relative to where you are in the zone and the BG scorecard uses the logs from the zone to post results I am sure which is exactly what ACT does so why would it be inaccurate?</blockquote>My character is always within range of my ACT, strangely enough. So my "Outgoing Damage" is accurate for my character."Outgoing Damage" in ACT lets you know how well your character's attacks are doing against your various targets in the encounter, which they mitigate by their STA and their spell resists.I do not care what other people are doing in the zone; I do not care if they are in range or not. That is irrelevant to the parses I am posting. The SOE ZW was included to help bring more information and context to the discussion.I am parsing what my character spells are currently hitting versus another player's resists under the new spell-resists fix.For example:<img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/parses/Gearsparse1.jpg" />Here you can see how much damage my character's spells inflict against other players under fixed spell-resists. If the spell damage inflicted was too high as it was under bugged-resists, then we would see that reflected in the Outgoing Damage parse showing unnaturally high outgoing spell hits. However, those damage hits are within the expected pvp damage range, which indicates that fixed spell-resists are mitigating as they should.I am bringing actual useful Live numbers to the discussion, not Oprah-esque "feelings" to the table.Post your character "Outgoing Damage" parses and demonstrate to us how uber or how weak your character performance is in Live settings under the fixed spell-resists.

Disma

04-14-2010, 03:02 PM

Ok i agree it is not useless in parsing your own damage and resists you are correct, but I am more interested in total damage output for matches not one persons one parse for one match people should post screenshots of their matches and lets just see who is on top.SOE should have a master parser showing an average of damage/heals and so forth rated by class since they already have it broken down in the BG scorecard it would not be hard and use those numbers to keep classes in check. Resists are important and should be tracked as well and people should post their % to hit.I am just curious what a melee % to hit is versus a caster % to hit.

Taldier

04-14-2010, 03:11 PM

<cite>Dismall@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>To be honest a tank should be the first person to die if they are doing their job properly and taunting. Them living longer should not almost double the parse of the closest caster. They definately should not be healing for 400k and be second on the heal parse as a tank class that is just insane.The caster is also a warlock which is built for encounter dps they should top the parse in just about every BG because they have the most aoes and are supposed to be T1 dps not T2 behind a tank class.I just dont understand how Crusaders can be top 5 on Heals/DPS/Damage Taken and nobody cares but mages top the damage parse BECAUSE THEY ARE A DPS CLASS and everyone wants a change. Should mages take out an entire group no, but they should not be T3 dps either.</blockquote>No, a tank should not be the first person to die. A tank with heals on them should be able to stand up to multiple t1 dps classes. That is their job. The tank taunts, the healers heal, and the mages cast spells.Before the change all you needed was for the mages to cast spells. Now they actually have to have the tank taunt people off them and get healed by the healer in order to fight off a group.Crusaders are op. They have been op for a very long time. But they are op because they are incredibly hard to kill. This creates less of a balance issue than guardians being instantly killed by sorcerers through heals every time they try to cast a group taunt.Full 24 v 24 fights are not intended to end within 10 seconds.Mages have not been nerfed to t3 dps. Your own parse shows mages filling nearly all of the top 10 spots on the damage parse. And the crusaders? Once again, they cast SPELLS. Their damage was also decreased by the changes in resists. Yes they are op, no they are not op becauses of their damage output.The only reason those parses are so inflated is that they get into a massive group v group fight where they continously do small amounts of damage over and over for a long period of time.Damage parses from bg's are worthless because they dont tell you what that player was doing during the duration of the match. Some of those players could be guarding center tower and doing all their damage in a few short fights. Others could be spawn camping the enemy base with an x2 for the duration of the match. Total damage done is worthless information.

Disma

04-14-2010, 03:19 PM

So if everyone is hitting the tank the tank should not be the first to die?? I dont understand the reasoning behind that but ok. If a tank is taunting and everyone is hitting them then they will probably be the first to die within the group is what i meant.but you are right i was exagerating a bit mages are T2 dps within BGs and scouts and crusaders are T1 now if thats what everyone wants thats fine but like i said before i just do not understand the difference between a mage killing an entire group and a crusader or scout doing it but w/e

Taldier

04-14-2010, 03:34 PM

<cite>Dismall@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>So if everyone is hitting the tank the tank should not be the first to die?? I dont understand the reasoning behind that but ok. If a tank is taunting and everyone is hitting them then they will probably be the first to die within the group is what i meant.but you are right i was exagerating a bit mages are T2 dps within BGs and scouts and crusaders are T1 now if thats what everyone wants thats fine but like i said before i just do not understand the difference between a mage killing an entire group and a crusader or scout doing it but w/e</blockquote>In order to kill a balanced group you assist target to kill the healers or dps first. A tank is not going to hold agro 100% of the time and you can kite out of their taunt range to break target lock. The tank should often be one of the last people to die in a group pvp fight, usually after the healer is dead or while the healer is being tauntlocked off of the tank.There is a difference between a mage killing a group in 2 seconds and a crusader fighting the group for a couple minutes without dying. Clearly its op but its not game breaking op. They will eventually die and they arent going to kill an equally geared group by themselves.And if a scout kills a group that is an absolutely horrible group because honestly scouts die faster than sorcs do and any fighter in a group can basically negate most of a scouts dps.