Adorning: Converting Powders to Fragments [Archive]

Barx

04-12-2010, 11:57 PM

This is a topic Domino brought up back before SF launched and kind of shelved until she could see how the market for adorning materials would play out.It's now ~2 months after SF, and I'm noticing that fragments still seem to be consumed much more than powders -- there always seems to be a glut of powder and a dearth of fragments. And when you look at the numbers required for items, we can see why. Consider that powders only come from treasured-type transmuting, and say you get about 3 fragments to every 1 powder.That's not so bad; after all, treasured adornments have a net requirement of 1 powder and 3 fragments. The issue arises in all the other recipes, where 6 fragments are consumed. For legendary adornments, it only takes a net of 1 powder -- now you're going through fragments at a rate of 6 fragments : 1 powder. Fabled adornments are a little nicer to that ratio, in that they take only 2 fragments for every powder (a net "gain" in fragment ratio).So treasured adorns take roughly what you expect from a treasured item transmutation. Because of that, the market size for treasured adorns isn't too relevent to my point. Now consider the reletive market sizes for Legendary and Fabled adornments; the high price of manas makes legendary a much more common choice for everyday adorning. So, for each legendary adornment made, you're 3 fragments "behind" the ratio you get from treasured items. For each fabled item, you gain 3 fragments back, but the market is much smaller so there's still a net glut of powder. Add on all the powder from legendary items and you've got a lot more powder now.We can turn it into infusions (and make legendary adorns that eat up more fragments) or even manas, but what I'd like to suggest is the thing Domino originally considered: a way to downconvert powder into fragments. Each other adorning resource can be acquired from conversion, except the lowly (but oh-so important) fragment. To that end, what I'd love to see is a recipe to convert a powder into say 2 or 3 fragments. That seems to be a pretty fair ratio to me, considering it takes 10 fragments to convert to a powder (of course, running that in reverse, ie 10 powder to 1 fragment, just seems ludicrous).What are folks thoughts on this? I've seen this overabundance of powders both while skilling up in adorning and at the high end in making T8/T9 adorns.

Legion11

04-13-2010, 01:57 PM

I love this idea and came to this forum today to start a thread on this very topic. Thank you for beating me to the punch, and also for presenting the idea much more articulately than I would have.I was just complaining to a friend in voice chat last night that I am forever running out of fragments, but always have an overabundance of powders. We talked about how if 9 fragments could be combined into one powder, why couldn't the process be reverse engineered and have powders be broken down into fragments? Now, neither of us expected to be able to break a powder and get all 9 fragments back - something should be lost in the process so the components don't become entirely interchangeable. I was leaning towards 1 powder = 4 fragments. It's a good number that represents roughly half of the batch (rounded down) and wouldn't significantly skew the market value - but simply make things less frustrating when you feel that RNG is working against you.I don't know about you, but when I'm melting Treasured material, I seem to get the "rare" result (powders) a disproportionally high amount of the time. Conversely, when melting Legendary material, I tend to get the "common" result (again, powders) more frequently than the percentage should play out to.This, of course, could simply be my personal bias - being that I really want Infusions and Fragments.

Jonaroth

04-13-2010, 02:12 PM

Agreed. We need a recipe to break powders into fragments. Doesn't have to be a lot, maybe just 1 powder = 2-4 fragments. But that would help a lot. I have about 100 powders, 25 infusions, 5 manas, and 0 lvl 90 adornments. Need Fragments to make anything, and they are the quickly used once got.

Kizee

04-13-2010, 02:32 PM

I am always running out of powers not frags.You guys taking it to 4th bar or just powerskilling and canceling after the first bar?

Barx

04-13-2010, 02:36 PM

<cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am always running out of powers not frags.You guys taking it to 4th bar or just powerskilling and canceling after the first bar?</blockquote>Always to the 4th bar. Are you making mainly treasured adornments, or mainly others? The most common adorn type I craft is Legendary (it's a good mix between price and power), where you really go through the fragments. Treasured adorns you should see an ok number of fragments if that's the primary thing you craft. (But again, I think most folks look for Legendary rather than just treasured).Though I will say the first few tiers (like T1/2) seemed to have want of powders more than frags, but it quickly changed to having fragments as the limiting reagent.

Dareena

04-13-2010, 03:01 PM

I'd have to agree. Over the weekend, I power leveled myself from 160 Adorning to 325 Adorning. (Thank you spare materials left over from leveling Transmuting. And thank you broker.) Based on my observations on LDL, fragments are selling for the same value as powder in most of the tiers. Or in certain lower tiers, fragments are 2-3 times more expensive then powders.At the upper tiers, it's just painful to run around gathering fragments. It's really sad when I buy some Treasured items off of the broker and start to curse when I get powders instead of fragments. But like it or not, that's the reality of the situation.Also like others have said, the Legendary and Fabled adornments don't have any fragment returns. So each adornment is flushing 6 fragments down the drain. It's really starting to add up for me. To be honest, I'm finding it easier to farm powders and infussions for T9. An hourly run through Sebellis at 90th can really start to rack up the transmutables. But like it or not, there isn't a cost efficient way to get T9 Treasured items to break down. People sell these for 1p+ each on the broker, then I often get jacked with a stupid powder result.Right now it takes x10 pieces of a lower tier to make x1 piece of the next material grade. I'd be personally satisfied if you could crush a grade and get x4 - x6 pieces of the next grade down.

Jesdyr

04-13-2010, 03:07 PM

I say leave it. It isnt like it is hard to get treasured items to mute.I think a better idea would be to add critical event to transmuting that returns 5x the lower material.So maybe the results table looks like this(numbers pulled out out air and not based on anything)75% fragment20% powder3% powder + fragment2% 5 fragments.

Jonaroth

04-13-2010, 07:36 PM

Saetun

04-13-2010, 08:59 PM

Not a bad thought at all. I'm perpetually out of frags and swimming in powder.

Meirril

04-14-2010, 04:09 AM

I don't think this is likely to happen. Since you can upconvert you'll always have a use for all that spare powder. Pre-SF we had a glut of fragments because legendary and fabled recipes took 5 powder. That was also when we consumed 8 fragments per legendary/fabled combine too.If there was a down-conversion available it would probably be 1 powder = 1 fragments. After you run the same instances 10-15 times you start muting just about everything that drops. At that point powders become a larger segment of the transmuted loot that you pull in. If you could down convert to even 2 to 1 you wouldn't need to transmute treasured gear and dev looses one of its best money sinks in the game. Any down convert recipe would have a negative effect in that reguard.

Travleer33

04-14-2010, 02:23 PM

I also came to this forum to make this topic.Either change the transmute numbers so we get more fragments at the T8/t9 level (only tiers with this issue), or add a convert powder to fragment.... or even both.

Barx

04-14-2010, 03:34 PM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't think this is likely to happen. Since you can upconvert you'll always have a use for all that spare powder. Pre-SF we had a glut of fragments because legendary and fabled recipes took 5 powder. That was also when we consumed 8 fragments per legendary/fabled combine too.If there was a down-conversion available it would probably be 1 powder = 1 fragments. After you run the same instances 10-15 times you start muting just about everything that drops. At that point powders become a larger segment of the transmuted loot that you pull in. If you could down convert to even 2 to 1 you wouldn't need to transmute treasured gear and dev looses one of its best money sinks in the game. Any down convert recipe would have a negative effect in that reguard.</blockquote>I disagree on it having a negative effect. A T10 adept books costs what, under 15g. If what you are saying were to happen, where people would transmute instead of sell even MORE legendary things, it'd be more of a money sink -- legendary items sell for several times the price of an adept book. Any downconvert recipe is a greater money sink: you're taking an item that comes primarily from more costly items, adding fuel (that is money out of the game right there) to produce an item that comes from lower price materials.And even a rate of 1 powder --> 1 fragment would be fine with me. It'd be horridly inefficient, but when fragments are selling for 2-3 times the powder (for the lower teir fragments) it'd certainly help to put things back into their proper order.

Jacobian21

04-14-2010, 08:21 PM

So I posted something about this like a week ago and only got ONE response.... I really think we should rally and try to get a response from Domino on this:<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=475802">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=475802</a>

Cusashorn

04-14-2010, 09:43 PM

I think they should scale down adornments by tiers so it takes less powders AND fragments to make T1 adornments than it does at t9. Seriously, whats up with that? I'm trying to make it through T1 and I'm burning through 50 fragments and powders just to make 7 adornments. 50 fragments and powders should be makin 25 adornments at best at that tier.

Barx

04-14-2010, 10:59 PM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think they should scale down adornments by tiers so it takes less powders AND fragments to make T1 adornments than it does at t9. Seriously, whats up with that? I'm trying to make it through T1 and I'm burning through 50 fragments and powders just to make 7 adornments. 50 fragments and powders should be makin 25 adornments at best at that tier.</blockquote>I'm fine with the ratios on them now. 1 powder and 3 fragments to make a treasured adornment is reasonable to me, given it's roughly what you get when breaking down 4 treasured items (on average). The whole 'skilling up' taking loads of mats is something Domino is looking at, with her possibly adding a daily quest to give you a few free or fuel-only adorning combines a day. With those plans said, I don't think the ratio needs tweaking, and I actually like that it's one thing that's consistent now <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Kizee

04-15-2010, 03:34 PM

<cite>Barx@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am always running out of powers not frags.You guys taking it to 4th bar or just powerskilling and canceling after the first bar?</blockquote>Always to the 4th bar. Are you making mainly treasured adornments, or mainly others? The most common adorn type I craft is Legendary (it's a good mix between price and power), where you really go through the fragments. Treasured adorns you should see an ok number of fragments if that's the primary thing you craft. (But again, I think most folks look for Legendary rather than just treasured).Though I will say the first few tiers (like T1/2) seemed to have want of powders more than frags, but it quickly changed to having fragments as the limiting reagent.</blockquote>Yep, I just ran into not having enough frags around t3.I was assuming that it was pretty typical fron t1&2 across all tiers.

JonasLupus

04-15-2010, 03:46 PM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think they should scale down adornments by tiers so it takes less powders AND fragments to make T1 adornments than it does at t9. Seriously, whats up with that? I'm trying to make it through T1 and I'm burning through 50 fragments and powders just to make 7 adornments. 50 fragments and powders should be makin 25 adornments at best at that tier.</blockquote>I am assuming you are exagerating, but, just in case you are not:If you have 50 fragments and powders you should be able to make 15 adornments. It takes 6 fragments to make a treasured adornment, but 3 of those are returned at the 4th level of creation. By your calculations, it seems you did not take it past the first level of completion, which will easily lead you to an excess of powders over fragments. To get the most from your money, take adorns all the way to the end completion level.

Hecula

04-15-2010, 04:33 PM

I've made hundreds of adornments since SF came out so these are my suggestions:Make each component able to be converted upwards to the next component or broken down into the lower tier in a ratio of:1 Mana -> 10 Infusions -> 100 Powders -> 400 FragmentsThis maintaines the current up-convert ratio but allows down-converting at the same ratio. It adds on conversion between powders and fragments at roughly the current transmute rate and the rate at which they are used (averaging the number of lesser, greater and superior adornments made and the rate at which fragments are consumed per powder consumed).The prices on my server are actually fairly consistent with this up to the point of going from powders to fragments. One mana is roughly worth 10 infusions. 1 infusion is roughly worth 10 powders. The only inconsistency is the price of fragments which, right now, are actually worth more than powders due to the reasons mentioned above. Allowing a down-convert from powders to fragments would cause the price of fragments to drop considerably and availability to increase, but the ratios would eventually even out. People playing the conversion route will make it so.

Banditman

04-15-2010, 05:46 PM

1 Mana -> 5 Infusions -> 25 Powders -> 125 Fragments . . . seems more reasonable to me.

VaylonK

04-15-2010, 06:13 PM

Have to agree with Hecula. It would make sense to be able to upgrade or downgrade materials in the same ratio at only the cost of fuel. When you run out of quests, finding treasured junk to crunch is a pain. And people get mad when you are consistently pulling mass quantities of mobs for transmuteable stuff because most of the mobs are quest related.

Cusashorn

04-15-2010, 09:01 PM

<cite>JonasLupus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think they should scale down adornments by tiers so it takes less powders AND fragments to make T1 adornments than it does at t9. Seriously, whats up with that? I'm trying to make it through T1 and I'm burning through 50 fragments and powders just to make 7 adornments. 50 fragments and powders should be makin 25 adornments at best at that tier.</blockquote>I am assuming you are exagerating, but, just in case you are not:If you have 50 fragments and powders you should be able to make 15 adornments. It takes 6 fragments to make a treasured adornment, but 3 of those are returned at the 4th level of creation. By your calculations, it seems you did not take it past the first level of completion, which will easily lead you to an excess of powders over fragments. To get the most from your money, take adorns all the way to the end completion level.</blockquote>I was exagerating, and I always take it to the 4th level, but still just trying to bring my skill up to 10, it just felt like I had burned through 100 components in no time.

Elessie

04-16-2010, 04:12 AM

Being able to break down powders into fragments would be great. Right now I'm sitting at 47 void powders with only 18 underfoot fragments. Fragments cost more than powders on the broker, and adept books have gone up to match the fragment prices. Even if 1 powder converted into only 2 fragments I'd be happy.

Barx

04-16-2010, 10:41 AM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>1 Mana -> 5 Infusions -> 25 Powders -> 125 Fragments . . . seems more reasonable to me.</blockquote>Even those ratio's are too high, I'd say. 1 mana going to 125 fragments is just... nuts. A ratio of 1 --> 2 or 3 for each downward step seems fair but also not overwhelming. At 1 -> 2, a mana would yield 2 infusions , 4 powders, or 8 fragments. At 1-->3 you'd get 3, 9, and 18 respectively.So 1-->3 seems like a pretty good ratio to me. Being able to break down manas and infusions would certainly help for low-level muting for skillups as well, though it'd be pretty useless at the high end (who would want to break down a pricey mana for a few cheapy infusions hehe)(Edited to clarify ratios above are downward conversions only, not up-conversion)

Hecula

04-16-2010, 09:56 PM

<cite>Barx@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote> A ratio of 1 --> 2 or 3 each way seems fair but also not overwhelming. At 1 -> 2, a mana would yield 2 infusions , 4 powders, or 8 fragments. At 1-->3 you'd get 3, 9, and 18 respectively.</blockquote>If these were the ratios for upconvert, Lesser and even Greater adorns would become useless in days as the market quickly gets flooded with tons of manas. Even on a bad day on my server a mana would be roughly worth 2-3 plat. Your ratios really don't reflect the relative rarity of looting each of those levels of transmutables - how easy it is to get even 8 T9 treasured drops versus 1 fabled T9 drop (excluding 1-group SOH and the like)? And if your ratios were just applied to downconvert, noone would ever do it - manas are just too valuable.I see no need to change the ratios. Just the ability to downconvert and add a step between powder and fragment.

Froaknstein

04-19-2010, 08:19 PM

<cite><a href="mailto:Jesdyr@Unrest">Jesdyr@Unrest</a> wrote:</cite><blockquote>It isnt like it is hard to get treasured items to mute.</blockquote>actually this is the problem in t9 - it IS difficult to get treasured gear in t9. once you have completed the solo quests there is very little you can do to farm treasured items to break down. you can do as i have and farm trash mobs for adepts only at a horrible rate - it seems to be right arround 1 adept for every 37.5 mobs you kill after a month+ of 1-2 hours a day killing solo trash mobs in t9. and i say adept only because in the whole time i have been farming trash mobs i have seen 1 - only a single treasured GEAR item drop from trash mobs, and im still not 100% sure it was actually from a trash mob it could have been a named that got mixed into the trash mobs as i still havent seen a 2nd drop. i have also seen 3 mastes drop from those trash mobs since i began. a list of places to get treasured gear in t9.....<ul><li>adepts from any mob in t9 heroic and solo</li><li>GEAR from named solo mobs</li><li>GEAR from solo quess</li></ul>now compare tha to t8 - where any trash mob had the chance to drop ADEPTS - AND - treasured GEAR (skyfire sabatons - etc etc) . now i dont know exact drop rates in t8 but i can pretty safely say that cuts the t9 drop rate in half from farming trash mobs. so once we run out of solo quests, which is extremly fast in this expansion our only means of farming treasured ANYTHING is to farm solo named for GEAR competing with everyone else for drops from only a small handfull of named among the 2 overland zones. or we can mindlessly bang our head against a wall slaughtering solo trash mobs for hours on end to get enough frgmentsto make 2 legendary adornments like i have been doing for the past month. of course you can just waste money buying treaured items off the broker but why pay for something i know how to and can do on my own? would a plumber pay to get his toilet fixed? please look at the whole picture domino:<ul><li>LESS treasured drops from solo mobs</li><li>LESS treasured drops from heroic content</li><li>WAY MORE legendary drops in heroic</li></ul>pleas dont just tell us to upconvert, i dont want to waste the "more rare" components just to compensate for the lack of "COMMON" component. i think 1-5-25-125 is a fair rate for down-converting.treasured adornments are not the most used adornent, not by a long shot. factor in all 3 tiers and the average ratio you should be getting components is closer to 1 powder to 5 fragments not 1 powder to 3 fragments. how is it that the most "common" of the components is not the component found in abundance and the most up-converted component? GEAR - means anything equipable (armor, jewlery, weapon) weather you would wear it or not.

Jrral

04-19-2010, 10:25 PM

<cite>Froaknstein@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>actually this is the problem in t9 - it IS difficult to get treasured gear in t9. once you have completed the solo quests there is very little you can do to farm treasured items to break down. you can do as i have and farm trash mobs for adepts only at a horrible rate - it seems to be right arround 1 adept for every 37.5 mobs you kill after a month+ of 1-2 hours a day killing solo trash mobs in t9.</blockquote>Second this. In T8, even splitting the loot among 3-4 people it was normal for us to finish a run with 3-6 treasured drop items each. In T9, after a similar run we're lucky to have seen 3-4 treasured items drop total. I can see the difference in my broker boxes: up through T8 I had to worry about running out of space, but when I'm concentrating in T9 I rarely have more than a quarter of my broker capacity filled. That's a huge difference.I think it's a case of bad interaction between multiple things. The higher the tier the more fragments each combine consumes, to try and provide a resource sink for higher-level characters with more money in their pockets to buy raws. At the same time, the higher tiers drop less loot to try and keep the economy under control as with each tier the sale value of each dropped item goes up. And also at the same time the higher your transmuting skill the lower the chance of you getting a fragment, and in the top tier the people transmuting items are more likely to be at the level cap with the highest transmuting skill and thus lowest chance of getting fragments. End result: a geometric drop in the supply of fragments as tier goes up, and a glut of powders as there aren't enough fragments available to make enough combines to use up the supply of powders.

Barx

04-19-2010, 11:37 PM

<cite>Hecula wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Barx@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote> A ratio of 1 --> 2 or 3 each way seems fair but also not overwhelming. At 1 -> 2, a mana would yield 2 infusions , 4 powders, or 8 fragments. At 1-->3 you'd get 3, 9, and 18 respectively.</blockquote>If these were the ratios for upconvert, Lesser and even Greater adorns would become useless in days as the market quickly gets flooded with tons of manas. Even on a bad day on my server a mana would be roughly worth 2-3 plat. Your ratios really don't reflect the relative rarity of looting each of those levels of transmutables - how easy it is to get even 8 T9 treasured drops versus 1 fabled T9 drop (excluding 1-group SOH and the like)? And if your ratios were just applied to downconvert, noone would ever do it - manas are just too valuable.I see no need to change the ratios. Just the ability to downconvert and add a step between powder and fragment.</blockquote>I was not saying that the ratios to upconvert should be changed -- those are fine where they all. To clarify, by "each way" I meant from mana to infusion, infusion to powder, and powder to fragment. Such a small ratio for upconversion would definately be imbalancing, the 1:3 or 1:2 ratio I was talking about there is only for downgrading.

Froaknstein

04-20-2010, 02:26 PM

lets also not forget he cookie cutter BS that is gear in SF. it seems weekly i am upgrading gear for a .2% increase to stats so i can either wait till i know for sure i have the highest gear possble for my playstyle...... year right. or i can acually try to adorn my gear and just waste insane ammounts of time and or coin to adorn my gear.

Jesdyr

04-20-2010, 02:52 PM

Let us transmute marks into fragments 1 to 1 ratio.I already have more than I know what to do with <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Blu

04-20-2010, 06:08 PM

Being able to convert powders to frags would have been a huge boon to me when leveling up adorning. In several tiers, I'd run out of fragments and still have 20 or 40 powders left.One other thing that would be nice is if you could convert up between tiers (e.g. X t1 fragments turns into 1 t2 fragment). That way I could turn all my unused lower tier components into something I could use for better skill-ups (grey combines have a very low skill-up rate compared to still-con recipes) or to actually use, rather than just selling them. The return on that would be fairly low... e.g. even if it was only 2x t1 piece to make 1 t2 etc., it would still take 256 t1 components to make 1 t9 component. Just a thought.

Jacobian21

04-20-2010, 06:20 PM

I agree that converting BETWEEN tiers would be nice, not sure what a proper ratio would be on that... but why do people have such a problem with having the downconversion rate be the same as the ALREADY EXISTING upconversion rate? I mean, you get 1 mana from 10 infusions.. why not let it go both ways with only the fuel as the added cost? Then you can manipulate your stock of components at will to keep things in balance!

Froaknstein

04-23-2010, 02:11 PM

bump...... this needs more attention or any official word <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />

Jacobian21

04-23-2010, 02:15 PM

Agreed... my powders way outnumber fragments for T8 and T9 now... need a way to balance out the numbers.

Froaknstein

04-23-2010, 02:17 PM

a few suggestions so it doesnt just look like i'm complaining without trying to help......<ul><li>make everything you transmute guaranteed to have a fragments - treasured = fragment every time + ability to get a powder, legendary = 1 fragment every time + what it does now, fabled = 2 fragments + what it does now</li><li>ability to down-convert like the up-converting system we have now - fair ratio to be decided by devs</li><li>allow trash mobs in t9 to drop garbage treasured gear (anything equipable with stats that no one would bother to use it) not just adepts like mobs did in t8 aka skyfire staff of the soldier</li></ul>

Jacobian21

04-30-2010, 11:20 AM

I really wish we could get a response from Domino on this. At least to get an idea if we have a chance of any of these ideas being put into the game... or if we are stuck trying to find places to farm for fragments ad infinitum.

nikiburny

05-01-2010, 02:10 PM

the reason fragments are higher in price, isn't because of their rarity or difficulty to aquire,it's because there are significant numbers of mana's available, but the demand for fabled adorns, compared to treasured/legendary is low(because people don't have 'final' gear yet).. over the months, the demand for fabled adorns will be increasing more then the supply of fabled raws, which will cause all non-fragments to be more highly demanded..for me, I have something like 800fragments, 2500powders 1200infusions and 450mana'sand broaker prices are like 1plat, 50g, 5p, 50pif they let us turn 1powder into even 1fragment, it would instantly drop the supply of powders, and value of fragments.. in short term, it would be fine, but in long term, it would mean less powders available(on teh server) to eventually turn into mana's.. I think the rato as is, is fine(even though getting a free 400plat by selling my fragment stock before price drops would be nice).if you take 100powders=10infusion=1mana, and look at the ratio for the 3 types..treasured = 3:1 legendary = 6:11, and fabled = 6:113treasured and legednary both soak up fragments fast, while fableds barely touch fragments.. so if you're running out, just up teh price of trasured+legendary, and make more fabled.. simple

Barx

05-02-2010, 04:59 PM

<cite>nikiburny wrote:</cite><blockquote>the reason fragments are higher in price, isn't because of their rarity or difficulty to aquire,it's because there are significant numbers of mana's available, but the demand for fabled adorns, compared to treasured/legendary is low(because people don't have 'final' gear yet).. over the months, the demand for fabled adorns will be increasing more then the supply of fabled raws, which will cause all non-fragments to be more highly demanded..for me, I have something like 800fragments, 2500powders 1200infusions and 450mana'sand broaker prices are like 1plat, 50g, 5p, 50pif they let us turn 1powder into even 1fragment, it would instantly drop the supply of powders, and value of fragments.. in short term, it would be fine, but in long term, it would mean less powders available(on teh server) to eventually turn into mana's.. I think the rato as is, is fine(even though getting a free 400plat by selling my fragment stock before price drops would be nice).if you take 100powders=10infusion=1mana, and look at the ratio for the 3 types..treasured = 3:1 legendary = 6:11, and fabled = 6:113treasured and legednary both soak up fragments fast, while fableds barely touch fragments.. so if you're running out, just up teh price of trasured+legendary, and make more fabled.. simple</blockquote>Er, I (tried) to understand what you're talking about, but I cannot make sense of it. Yeah, you can turn excess powders into infusions and manas but that doesn't help when you need more fragments.

Hecula

05-03-2010, 12:55 AM

<cite>nikiburny wrote:</cite><blockquote>treasured and legednary both soak up fragments fast, while fableds barely touch fragments.. so if you're running out, just up teh price of trasured+legendary, and make more fabled.. simple</blockquote>Eh? Fabled adorns (Superior) take the same number of fragments to produce as Mastercrafted (Greater). Switching from making Greater adorns to Superior will have no upward affect on the availability of fragments at all - but it would drive the prices of manas up considerably (and maybe that's what you want, sitting on 450 manas).The price of fragments is out of proportion on pretty much every server I've seen. Typical prices are as you quoted - 1P per frag, 50g per powder, 5plat per infusion. Unless you farm junk gear all day long, the fragment cost to produce an adorn is more than the infusion cost by a large margin. This seems a little backwards.Please sneak in 1:3 or 1:4 conversion of powders to fragments in the next GU.

Xalmat

05-03-2010, 01:41 AM

I would like to see something to downconvert Infusions and Powders into Fragments.

Sarriss

05-05-2010, 10:39 AM

<cite>Jacobian21 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree that converting BETWEEN tiers would be nice, not sure what a proper ratio would be on that... but why do people have such a problem with having the downconversion rate be the same as the ALREADY EXISTING upconversion rate? I mean, you get 1 mana from 10 infusions.. why not let it go both ways with only the fuel as the added cost? Then you can manipulate your stock of components at will to keep things in balance!</blockquote>the reason tthis will probably not happen it to keep people from using the conversion recipies as a skill up method. If down conversion recipies do enter the game, they will not yeild the same numbers as requiered for the up conversion. Most of us are fine with that. (I know I am)

Hecula

05-05-2010, 04:35 PM

Would like to see a tinkered item that could be used to break these things down although I know others may not agree. Perhaps something that can be made by tinkers, used by everyone, takes 1 transmuted product and 5 of that tier's fuel and returns the downconverted products and uses up the device.

Banditman

05-05-2010, 05:17 PM

The method for doing this is irrelevant, be it a recipe or some other item created by crafters. The point is that the balance of the "lesser" adornment raws is a huge mess right now.Adornment raws should be a pyramid, with Mana at the top (most rare) and Fragments at the bottom (most common). That's the way the adornment recipes are structured. Unfortunately, "real world" supply does not reflect the intended design.There needs to be a downward convert function/recipe/item so that the players can even this out and bring the market into balance with intended crafting design.

Hecula

05-07-2010, 03:44 AM

I think most of the playerbase would support this change as the end result will likely be cheaper, more avialable adorns. However, there may be technical problems or limitations that need to be gotten around. For example, adorning components stack so if they use the existing transmute skill, it would have to be enabled for stacks of items. Also, adornment components are flagged "No-Value" so if there is a specific rule that transmuting all No-Value items is forbidden, this also needs to be rectified. Perhaps talking more about this and how it can be done might nudge this change along quicker - that's my hope at least.

Davngr1

05-09-2010, 02:26 PM

the "down convertion" and the "up" convertion should be the exact same. ALL trade skill exp should be REMOVED from ALL convertions so people won't level to 450 with out ever actually using any mats.edit. people that give more "value" to less common mats need to remember that you're using the "current" market to determine "value" and with this change that market will change. in the current state it would cost 5904.9(frag = 90 gold value, (90*9)*9)*9)/100) plat to make one T9 mana, this is not a balanced market "value" and it's do to unfair mechanics. of course *up* convertion should not be efficient but i thing 1000x it's market value is a bit much.

Deson

05-09-2010, 02:42 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>the "down convertion" and the "up" convertion should be the exact same. ALL trade skill exp should be REMOVED from ALL convertions so people won't level to 450 with out ever actually using any mats.</blockquote>So we can go back to spam creation as the only way to skill-up? No thanks. That's the best part about the current conversions.

Darkonx

05-09-2010, 04:48 PM

+1 to the OP. I'd like to see a powder -> fragment conversion at a ratio of something like 1-3 or 1-4.

Davngr1

05-11-2010, 06:13 AM

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>the "down convertion" and the "up" convertion should be the exact same. ALL trade skill exp should be REMOVED from ALL convertions so people won't level to 450 with out ever actually using any mats.</blockquote>So we can go back to spam creation as the only way to skill-up? No thanks. That's the best part about the current conversions.</blockquote> that makes no sense.. what's the so diffirent about spam creation of actual items vs. conversions? nothing it's the exact same proggress exept that if it does give tradeskill exp and a "down" conversion is implemented people will just convert up and down all the way to 450 using minimal materials. don't quite seem balanced to me, it's like being able to create and break down rares from rare form to common form over and over again untill you're a level cap. quite dumb really can't imagine why anyone would back this.

Deson

05-11-2010, 04:19 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>the "down convertion" and the "up" convertion should be the exact same. ALL trade skill exp should be REMOVED from ALL convertions so people won't level to 450 with out ever actually using any mats.</blockquote>So we can go back to spam creation as the only way to skill-up? No thanks. That's the best part about the current conversions.</blockquote> that makes no sense.. what's the so diffirent about spam creation of actual items vs. conversions? nothing it's the exact same proggress exept that if it does give tradeskill exp and a "down" conversion is implemented people will just convert up and down all the way to 450 using minimal materials. don't quite seem balanced to me, it's like being able to create and break down rares from rare form to common form over and over again untill you're a level cap. quite dumb really can't imagine why anyone would back this.</blockquote>Conversions don't add product to the market. When I upconvert raws, they remain usable materials that can be sold or otherwise utilized. Back when we had to spam create adornments to skill-up, it was pretty much a given that everything done was going to be a loss because everyone else had to do the exact same thing. Now, instead of having massive surpluses of raws I'll never use/sell for a loss and instead of making masses of the exact same adornments everyone else is spamming, I can make those powders into infusions for a point and then actually use it for something of value. All spam creation of actual adorments does is hurt the market. Given the raws still have to be acquired for use, there is no cheap way out. While I'm wary of down conversions at all looking at the market, as long as it's for a loss, it won't be a cheap way to get skill-ups. Of course, we could always just make the upper level adornment raws transmutable to the lower level and that dodges the down conversion skill-up concern altogether. I'd prefer all conversions stay in the purview of adorners but making them transmutable wouldn't be out of place.

Davngr1

05-12-2010, 04:40 AM

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>the "down convertion" and the "up" convertion should be the exact same. ALL trade skill exp should be REMOVED from ALL convertions so people won't level to 450 with out ever actually using any mats.</blockquote>So we can go back to spam creation as the only way to skill-up? No thanks. That's the best part about the current conversions.</blockquote> that makes no sense.. what's the so diffirent about spam creation of actual items vs. conversions? nothing it's the exact same proggress exept that if it does give tradeskill exp and a "down" conversion is implemented people will just convert up and down all the way to 450 using minimal materials. don't quite seem balanced to me, it's like being able to create and break down rares from rare form to common form over and over again untill you're a level cap. quite dumb really can't imagine why anyone would back this.</blockquote>Conversions don't add product to the market. When I upconvert raws, they remain usable materials that can be sold or otherwise utilized. Back when we had to spam create adornments to skill-up, it was pretty much a given that everything done was going to be a loss because everyone else had to do the exact same thing. Now, instead of having massive surpluses of raws I'll never use/sell for a loss and instead of making masses of the exact same adornments everyone else is spamming, I can make those powders into infusions for a point and then actually use it for something of value. All spam creation of actual adorments does is hurt the market. Given the raws still have to be acquired for use, there is no cheap way out. While I'm wary of down conversions at all looking at the market, as long as it's for a loss, it won't be a cheap way to get skill-ups. Of course, we could always just make the upper level adornment raws transmutable to the lower level and that dodges the down conversion skill-up concern altogether. I'd prefer all conversions stay in the purview of adorners but making them transmutable wouldn't be out of place.</blockquote> well if you spam created up conversions and down conversions you're basically cutting your cost by at least 75%(depending on penalty). there has always been a sacrifice/cost of some sort when leveling up a craft and that's a good thing. if this goes live then i request that my other crafters be able to make rares from raws and then be able to break down rares into raws. if exp is not removed from conversions you will bring back the same imbalance that alch's enjoyed with the whole ink thing before the crafting revamp. the lack of market while leveling up an adorner has less to do with the amount of the adorns and more to do with the lack of demand. when i leveld from 400 to 450 nothing was wasted yet there where many, many adorners doing the exact same thing. now because of the up conversions and the fact that dev's put minimal treasured drops fragments are selling for close to a plat. that's why i say the make the conversions up and down equal and remove exp from the conversions since you're actually not crafting anything. it's clear that converting to level cap with out actually crafting any items is an exploit, it don't matter if thre is a penalty or not. you're still loosing just a fraction of material as you would have, if you actually had crafted something.

Earlhastan

05-12-2010, 05:24 AM

I would have to disagree on the downwards conversion. I dont think it would be a good idea.Like all other transmuters I have an abundance of powders and a shortage of fragments. I have never used the fragment to powder conversion since it is a waste of resources. The powder to infusion one I use once i get way too many powders and I end up with a somewhat smaller but balanced supply again.The problem here is that the start of the chain (treasured drops) is currently just a little to low to supply the market so the prices have gone up a lot on fragments. There are two in my view vialble ways of fixing this.1 increase treasured drops in SF or2 reduce the number of fragments needed in the recipes.Transmuting is one of the more powerful inflationcontrols on the economy. Instead of selling lootdrops straight to a vendor and get new money coming into the system we break down the items, make new items and sell them to other players for money that is already in the system. Currently there is a built in system to unbalance resources so they go to waste so to speak. We can only make the higher ingredients from a lot of smaller ones and thereby stopping even more potential vendormoney from entering the economy.If we turn it around and suddenly starts to break down infusions down to fragments there will be a lot less lootdrops needed to supply the market and therefor the prices of adornments and transmuted ingredients will in the long run fall to the point where it is more costeffective for players to sell the lootdrops to a vendor instead of selling them to a transmuter.Inflation is already high enough as it is without adding unnecessary boosters too it. This problem can be fixed with a small nudge instead of the mallet some people want to use.//Earlhastan

Davngr1

05-12-2010, 03:01 PM

<cite>Earlhastan wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would have to disagree on the downwards conversion. I dont think it would be a good idea.Like all other transmuters I have an abundance of powders and a shortage of fragments. I have never used the fragment to powder conversion since it is a waste of resources. The powder to infusion one I use once i get way too many powders and I end up with a somewhat smaller but balanced supply again.The problem here is that the start of the chain (treasured drops) is currently just a little to low to supply the market so the prices have gone up a lot on fragments. There are two in my view vialble ways of fixing this.1 increase treasured drops in SF or2 reduce the number of fragments needed in the recipes.Transmuting is one of the more powerful inflationcontrols on the economy. Instead of selling lootdrops straight to a vendor and get new money coming into the system we break down the items, make new items and sell them to other players for money that is already in the system. Currently there is a built in system to unbalance resources so they go to waste so to speak. We can only make the higher ingredients from a lot of smaller ones and thereby stopping even more potential vendormoney from entering the economy.If we turn it around and suddenly starts to break down infusions down to fragments there will be a lot less lootdrops needed to supply the market and therefor the prices of adornments and transmuted ingredients will in the long run fall to the point where it is more costeffective for players to sell the lootdrops to a vendor instead of selling them to a transmuter.Inflation is already high enough as it is without adding unnecessary boosters too it. This problem can be fixed with a small nudge instead of the mallet some people want to use.//Earlhastan</blockquote>this would work too.

Valdaglerion

05-12-2010, 04:07 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Earlhastan wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would have to disagree on the downwards conversion. I dont think it would be a good idea.Like all other transmuters I have an abundance of powders and a shortage of fragments. I have never used the fragment to powder conversion since it is a waste of resources. The powder to infusion one I use once i get way too many powders and I end up with a somewhat smaller but balanced supply again.The problem here is that the start of the chain (treasured drops) is currently just a little to low to supply the market so the prices have gone up a lot on fragments. There are two in my view vialble ways of fixing this.1 increase treasured drops in SF or2 reduce the number of fragments needed in the recipes.Transmuting is one of the more powerful inflationcontrols on the economy. Instead of selling lootdrops straight to a vendor and get new money coming into the system we break down the items, make new items and sell them to other players for money that is already in the system. Currently there is a built in system to unbalance resources so they go to waste so to speak. We can only make the higher ingredients from a lot of smaller ones and thereby stopping even more potential vendormoney from entering the economy.If we turn it around and suddenly starts to break down infusions down to fragments there will be a lot less lootdrops needed to supply the market and therefor the prices of adornments and transmuted ingredients will in the long run fall to the point where it is more costeffective for players to sell the lootdrops to a vendor instead of selling them to a transmuter.Inflation is already high enough as it is without adding unnecessary boosters too it. This problem can be fixed with a small nudge instead of the mallet some people want to use.//Earlhastan</blockquote>this would work too.</blockquote>Or leave it the way it is and it would continue to help the economy by slowing the faucets even further.

Deson

05-12-2010, 05:06 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote> well if you spam created up conversions and down conversions you're basically cutting your cost by at least 75%(depending on penalty). there has always been a sacrifice/cost of some sort when leveling up a craft and that's a good thing. if this goes live then i request that my other crafters be able to make rares from raws and then be able to break down rares into raws. if exp is not removed from conversions you will bring back the same imbalance that alch's enjoyed with the whole ink thing before the crafting revamp. the lack of market while leveling up an adorner has less to do with the amount of the adorns and more to do with the lack of demand. when i leveld from 400 to 450 nothing was wasted yet there where many, many adorners doing the exact same thing. now because of the up conversions and the fact that dev's put minimal treasured drops fragments are selling for close to a plat. that's why i say the make the conversions up and down equal and remove exp from the conversions since you're actually not crafting anything. it's clear that converting to level cap with out actually crafting any items is an exploit, it don't matter if thre is a penalty or not. you're still loosing just a fraction of material as you would have, if you actually had crafted something.</blockquote>It's not an exploit, it was a specifically requested for years as an alternative to spamming mass product and devaluing actual sellable adonrments and also to gicve adorners more flexibility in managing adornment raws. There is no imbalance because adorners still have to acquire raws.

Hecula

05-14-2010, 08:54 PM

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's not an exploit, it was a specifically requested for years as an alternative to spamming mass product and devaluing actual sellable adonrments and also to gicve adorners more flexibility in managing adornment raws. There is no imbalance because adorners still have to acquire raws.</blockquote>Sorry man - your suggestion won't help things - it will just create more problems.Playing up-convert, down-convert to get skillups means much much less raws are removed from the marketplace from aspiring transmuters. This drives the prices of raws down, which in turn should keep the prices of lower-tier adorns low. It also makes it less worthwhile for transmuters to actually transmute anything but since there is no other option to skill-up transmuting, raws will continue to enter the market.It seems very wrong, fundamentally, to allow skillups without actually making something - just converting product back and forth. It would, however, allow people to level an adorner "on the cheap". I'm personally not in favor of that. I'm glad adorning has its costs associated with leveling.

Deson

05-15-2010, 01:52 PM

<cite>Hecula wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's not an exploit, it was a specifically requested for years as an alternative to spamming mass product and devaluing actual sellable adonrments and also to gicve adorners more flexibility in managing adornment raws. There is no imbalance because adorners still have to acquire raws.</blockquote>Sorry man - your suggestion won't help things - it will just create more problems.Playing up-convert, down-convert to get skillups means much much less raws are removed from the marketplace from aspiring transmuters. This drives the prices of raws down, which in turn should keep the prices of lower-tier adorns low. It also makes it less worthwhile for transmuters to actually transmute anything but since there is no other option to skill-up transmuting, raws will continue to enter the market.It seems very wrong, fundamentally, to allow skillups without actually making something - just converting product back and forth. It would, however, allow people to level an adorner "on the cheap". I'm personally not in favor of that. I'm glad adorning has its costs associated with leveling.</blockquote>I don't know how you got that from anything I posted.I already said I'm not a fan of down conversions but the reality is unless it's at a 1:1 there's still a substantial cost associated with leveling an adorner. The costs will never be less than what vendoring treasured +gear would return and the materials to be transmuted still have to be acquired anyway.

Hecula

05-17-2010, 02:50 PM

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't know how you got that from anything I posted.I already said I'm not a fan of down conversions but the reality is unless it's at a 1:1 there's still a substantial cost associated with leveling an adorner. The costs will never be less than what vendoring treasured +gear would return and the materials to be transmuted still have to be acquired anyway.</blockquote>Well, someone posted that skillups from down- and up-convert should be removed. You argued agaist that and seemed to indicate that you felt that it was healty to allow people to down-convert, up-convert ad infinitum to skill-up with basically a next-to-zero creation rate because it 1) was a good alternative to the monotony of endless adornment creation (to be replaced by the endless monotony of down- and up-converting plus yay we get to level transmuting too) and 2) it would allow the price of lower-tier adornments to rise because there were less "junk" adorns on the broker from adorners leveling up. But that's not the way it would work.I'm a fan of allowing down-convert. But skillups doing so (and upconvert too) need to be removed. Also, the conversion should not skill-up transmuting either. Anything converting one raw material to another should have no affect whatsoever on profession skill-ups. I would think the reasons would be obvious.

Deson

05-17-2010, 03:30 PM

<cite>Hecula wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't know how you got that from anything I posted.I already said I'm not a fan of down conversions but the reality is unless it's at a 1:1 there's still a substantial cost associated with leveling an adorner. The costs will never be less than what vendoring treasured +gear would return and the materials to be transmuted still have to be acquired anyway.</blockquote>Well, someone posted that skillups from down- and up-convert should be removed. You argued agaist that and seemed to indicate that you felt that it was healty to allow people to down-convert, up-convert ad infinitum to skill-up with basically a next-to-zero creation rate because it 1) was a good alternative to the monotony of endless adornment creation (to be replaced by the endless monotony of down- and up-converting plus yay we get to level transmuting too) and 2) it would allow the price of lower-tier adornments to rise because there were less "junk" adorns on the broker from adorners leveling up. But that's not the way it would work.I'm a fan of allowing down-convert. But skillups doing so (and upconvert too) need to be removed. Also, the conversion should not skill-up transmuting either. Anything converting one raw material to another should have no affect whatsoever on profession skill-ups. I would think the reasons would be obvious.</blockquote>In those posts I stated I was wary of allowing down converts at all. The exchange you are referencing was based on converting giving skill-ups at all which, given the choice between skill-ups on both vs. skill-ups on neither, skill-ups on both is preferable to spammed product bottoming out the market like it was before.I never said anything about lower tier adorn prices, but from previous discussions I have said that people spamming product to level would be stupid to not pick what's cheap or what has a reasonable chance to sell. Every adorner with the exact same recipes can be expected to make the same decisions given the options meaning product will be spammed and prices depressed. It's worked this way with all tradeskills since the beginning, what would make adorning any different?Skill-ups on conversion is no different than the old sub-combine system. Skill is still being used and unlike the old subs, there's still a large cost to even starting the process. If down-conversions are allowed at all, it almost certainly would be for a loss meaning every conversion could still be fairly expensive. Given transmuting/adorning has multiple "on-the cheap" options as well, talks of cost are only a small portion of any such discussion anyhow. To argue cost, one almost certainly has to argue that grey combines shouldn't give skill-ups as well.I would think the reasons would be obvious.My actual suggested solution to all this was to just make all transmutes give fragments and force up-converting from there.

Hecula

05-18-2010, 04:10 AM

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's worked this way with all tradeskills since the beginning, what would make adorning any different?To argue cost, one almost certainly has to argue that grey combines shouldn't give skill-ups as well.I would think the reasons would be obvious.My actual suggested solution to all this was to just make all transmutes give fragments and force up-converting from there.</blockquote>It's different because you can't break down a simple, non-rare product of another tradeskill into raw materians then use some or all of what you just got to make the same thing again. Mastercrafted does transmute, but you would use up a rare and would crush into a basic transmute - not components to make another of the same item. Those are used up.I agree, grey combines should not give skill ups. I leveled 3 max adorners before I even knew that they would.Your suggested solution would work fine for the market availability of product but there should still be no skillups given for conversion of product. Perhaps up- and down-convert could even be a transmuter skill.

Deson

05-18-2010, 08:54 AM

<cite>Hecula wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's worked this way with all tradeskills since the beginning, what would make adorning any different?To argue cost, one almost certainly has to argue that grey combines shouldn't give skill-ups as well.I would think the reasons would be obvious.My actual suggested solution to all this was to just make all transmutes give fragments and force up-converting from there.</blockquote>It's different because you can't break down a simple, non-rare product of another tradeskill into raw materians then use some or all of what you just got to make the same thing again. Mastercrafted does transmute, but you would use up a rare and would crush into a basic transmute - not components to make another of the same item. Those are used up.I agree, grey combines should not give skill ups. I leveled 3 max adorners before I even knew that they would.Your suggested solution would work fine for the market availability of product but there should still be no skillups given for conversion of product. Perhaps up- and down-convert could even be a transmuter skill.</blockquote>It's not differrent relative to how transmuting/adorning work. If you want to argue it is, then you also have to note that other crafts,including tinkering, get all they need to level for practically free and a lot less hassle. Adorning and transmuting require you to take items,including rares, that have substantial value and destroy them for what's hopefully a larger gain. You quoted my, "It's worked that way..." out of context however and I'd just like to point out again, that statement is entirely related to the effect spamming product with no other outlet has on the market.You leveled three max adorners or old transmuters?My suggestion works fine for skilling up and the economics which is why I made it. The old sub-combine system is proof and the whole reason I said both it and approve of the current system is because both ways allow adorners significant ability to respond to the market while not taking inordinate risk. If there are to be no skill-ups from conversions or greys however, I'm all for some form of writ system to keep the system as accessible as it has been since its introduction.

Hecula

05-20-2010, 02:51 AM

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's not differrent relative to how transmuting/adorning work. If you want to argue it is, then you also have to note that other crafts,including tinkering, get all they need to level for practically free and a lot less hassle.You leveled three max adorners or old transmuters?I'm all for some form of writ system to keep the system as accessible as it has been since its introduction.</blockquote>Yes, that's true. Just one of the many ways adorning is different - the raw materials have to come from items and are not harvested. But that's the way the tradeskill is. It's also a different skillup process than the traditional tradeskills. It doesn't mean things need to be changed to make it as easy as those others. IMO it should remain difficult and costly. Tinkering, while not costly, is somewhat tedious. But useful. So it's worth it. Same with adorning.Yes, I leveled three max adorners. They all started at 0 adorning and 0 transmuting (or 4 or whatever) at the beginning of SF. Actually I leveled 3 max transmuters then 3 max adorners so I did it both. 3 times.I wouldn't be a fan of a writ system if it was linked to automatic skillups. Only one that resulted in city tokens.This has gotten very off-topic tho - this isn't about how skillups are done with adorning. It's about downconversion which I think many people agree is a good thing, even those of us that make adorns for hours every day.

Banditman

05-21-2010, 04:31 PM

I have yet to come across a day on Kithicor when more than 150 Underfoot Fragments have been on sale for ANY PRICE. Let alone something bordering on reasonable. I've been watching this for a few weeks now.Quadrupling drop rates of Adept spells would work, but a simple increase in the Treasured item drop rate won't work due to most of those items being marked Lore in Sentinel's Fate. However, that would put more money into the economy. Short term, prices would drop, but long term, they'd go back up.A simple down conversion would not have that effect.I could care less whatever is decided, I simply want the Fragment supply problem corrected. Yesterday would be good.

Lethe5683

05-21-2010, 04:36 PM

The ratio of fragments to powders from transmuting items is perfectly fine, the amount of fragments used in crafting adornments however is far more than it should be. Bring it down from 6 to 4 at least.

nikiburny

05-22-2010, 12:13 PM

I've said it before, I'll say it again, with less words..the ratio's of drops, raws, and crafting costs are perfectly fine.the only problem, is the supply vs demand, on fabled adorns.because not enough people(so far) have been wanting/using fabled adorns, the fragment market has been sucked dry, creating legendary+treasured... those same fragments, could have been used to create(server wide estimates) 3500fabled adorns, instead of 200fabled, 1000legendary and 4500treasured.once more people are using fabled adorns instead of treasured/legendary, the fragment's will fix themselves over time.but as long as people want to spend 5plat/15plat for treasured/legendary, instead of 60plat for fabled.. the price(and demand) of fragments will continue to go up

Hecula

05-23-2010, 11:46 PM

<cite>nikiburny wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've said it before, I'll say it again, with less words..</blockquote>And I'll say it again in case you missed it: You are dead wrong.Here's why: what is the bottleneck we all know and are talking about here? Fragments!How many fragments does it take to make a Greater (Mastercrafted) adorn? 6 FragmentsHow many fragments does it take to make a Superior (Fabled) adorn? 6 FragmentsNow I'm going to ask a rhetorical question: how would people making Superior (Fabled) adorns instead of Greater (Mastercrafted) adorns affect the supply of fragments if both types of adorns use EXACTLY the same number of fragments?Answer: it wouldn't at all.BECAUSE THEY BOTH USE THE SAME NUMBER OF FRAGMENTSRealistically, the demand (and availability) of Superior adorns is driven by the cost (and availablility) of Distilled Manas. Some people are just not willing to shell out 80+PP per Superior adorn until they're in end-game gear (or close to it). And since SF is new and people are gearing up, there are less fabled items being crushed, hence, the supply of distilled manas remains limited.The simple truth that most people have hit on already is that there is a big demand for adorns, period! The revamp made most people want to go out and grab new adorns - even for T8 stuff. For the wide majority of the playerbase who has a bunch of plat saved up due to it being too easy to make plat in this game, Greater adorns is the best option. They are (relatively) cheap and give you a good bang and can be replaced to deal with changing gear configs. You wouldn't really want to be switching Superior adorns all the time due to the cost.So, we've established, lots of people like Greater adorns. Due to the price of Superior adorns, yes, more people are opting for Greater. But the price of Superior is driven by manas which won't drop for a while yet. So really, the only way to get people not to want Greater adorns is to either nerf them so they're worse, equal or only slightly better than lesser adorns or to remove them from the game altogether. Neither of these are good options.

Undorett

06-01-2010, 01:08 PM

I would love to see a powder to fragment conversion. When we run current tier zones we get more legendary junk than we do treasured junk, and by the end of a day of running instances I have 2-3x more powder than I do fragments, but I use 2-3x more fragments than I do powder per recipe.

Kinvore

06-04-2010, 07:57 AM

Can a dev please sound off on this issue?

Earlhastan

06-04-2010, 09:16 AM

I still fail to see ANY valid reasons for a downconversion.Like in all the differnet trades you cannot keep a full stock of every item at all times. The prices vary, the supply vary and so on. What you do is either buy at a higer cost if you can and raise you prices or wait until you can get more supplies at a better cost before you restock. For example as an alchemist it is not every day I can find enough rares to keep up with demand. I can buy at a higher cost but that would cut into my profit since there are a lot of OTHER alchemists and sages that wants the same rares as well. Why would the adorning buisness be any different?We have been given daily writs with supplied raws to ease levelling.We have been given the means to combine raws so we dont get a huge supply of just one raw.The adorners now have ALL adornment recipes. Easier for the adorner but more competition since its easier to remember who makes what.What more do you really want?There are quite a few adorners competing on the market so there will be a lot of competition on the raws. For someone that only makes adornmets for himself its not a big problem since you dont really make that many anyway. These complaints sounds more like it is from a select few that wants to keep a full selection of all adornmets on the market. Its too hard to do it the traditional way so you want an easy mode to in their minds make a huge wad of easy cash. Well guess what. Its possible to do this already, you just have to fight the competition like in all the other markets.Prices go up if the supply is limited. Its basic supply and demand. For some reason the same people that praise this the loudest as soon as someone make a remark on their high prices, is the same that start frothing at the mouth and screaming for an easier way as soon as their profitmargins shrink.

Banditman

06-04-2010, 09:57 AM

What do I want? I want to see a "supply" of Fragments in proportion to the "supply" of Powders, Infusions and Mana.Every single adorning recipe takes Fragments - every single one! Yet, somehow, in Tier 9, the supply of Fragments is by far the lowest of the adorning raws. There are more Mana vials for sale than Fragments! That is just WRONG.Everyone keeps trying to say it's alright, but it's NOT.There are two solutions:1. Increase the supply of Fragments by increasing drops of Treasured items. This would have a side effect of putting more money into the economy, since those Treasured drops have value and would not always be turned into Fragments.2. Allow Adorners to down convert existing raws to create what they need.

Domino

06-04-2010, 02:58 PM

I believe this was discussed during Sentinel's Fate beta, and I had posted that I had some concerns about the potential exploits that several people have already pointed out in this thread. My feeling was that there were already a large number of changes happening so we wouldn't rush in, and would wait to see how things look once all the changes have settled down. It's only been a few months since the entire transmuting/adorning system changed, after all. And although there is a shortage of fragments in some level ranges, there will always be a shortage of something, it's not necessarily a terrible thing.So I haven't posted on this thread because I'm not ready to either confirm or deny the request. It might be something to look at in the future, but I also don't think it's a top priority omg urgent issue either, and there are definitely a lot of factors to consider before we jump into anything, most of which have already been raised by many thoughtful posters in this thread.

Undorett

06-04-2010, 03:34 PM

Frankly the adorning economy has calmed down, at least on the server I play on. Adornment prices have been stable for quite some time as have raw prices. Also, a shortage of the most commonly used item in the tradeskill is not a good crafting/economic model to have. The shortage should be at the most rare item (manas) which has been artificially increased due to the up-conversion introduced with SF.

Valdaglerion

06-04-2010, 03:50 PM

kdmorse

06-04-2010, 04:24 PM

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>So I haven't posted on this thread because I'm not ready to either confirm or deny the request. It might be something to look at in the future, but I also don't think it's a top priority omg urgent issue either, and there are definitely a lot of factors to consider before we jump into anything, most of which have already been raised by many thoughtful posters in this thread.</blockquote>Can you perhaps tell us if Bulk transmuting is on the table anywhere? I don't so much mind aquiring the items to transmute, as the tediousness of the transmuting process. Every fragment that exists in the game, exists because someone transmuted it. Click Transmute, Click Item, Click Yes, Wait, Click Accept, Click Transmute, Click Item, Click Yes, Wait, Click Accept, Click Transmute, Wait, Click Accept...Want to turn 200 Adepts into a pile of materials, better have a TV show to watch while you're doing it.Unlike regular crafting, there's very little reason for it. There's no reactives, no progress, no durability, nothing you can do to affect the pass/fail raite. Just mindless clicking. HotBar, Inventory, Dialog, Dialog.It doesn't solve the problem being discussed here. At best, more people might transmute more things for profit, causing a slight increase in fragment supply on the brokers. But at 6 fragments per adorn (Greater/Superior), it might make the process of getting there less tedious.How to implement it in a way that doesn't complicate things?1. You could make it only available to max skilled transmuters. Gives em an incentive to get those last 25 skill points if they've been slacking. And removes the question of how it interacts with skillups. (I don't think anyone's fussing about transmuting skillup difficulty?)2. Let us point the transmute spell at a bag containing things. Everything in the bag goes, and results are rewarded at once.Eh, it's an idea. It would make me happy. So I thought I'd throw it out there.

Prrasha

06-04-2010, 04:29 PM

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>I believe this was discussed during Sentinel's Fate beta, and I had posted that I had some concerns about the potential exploits that several people have already pointed out in this thread. My feeling was that there were already a large number of changes happening so we wouldn't rush in, and would wait to see how things look once all the changes have settled down. It's only been a few months since the entire transmuting/adorning system changed, after all. And although there is a shortage of fragments in some level ranges, there will always be a shortage of something, it's not necessarily a terrible thing.So I haven't posted on this thread because I'm not ready to either confirm or deny the request. It might be something to look at in the future, but I also don't think it's a top priority omg urgent issue either, and there are definitely a lot of factors to consider before we jump into anything, most of which have already been raised by many thoughtful posters in this thread.</blockquote>Well, the relative lack of fragments vs powders is obvious. Prices from the broker from Najena last night (assuming visiting the seller's house if it's possible):T9 adepts/treasured gear: start at 75gpT9 powders: start at 54gp. buy a full stack and the most-expensive would be 69gp.T9 fragments: start at 110gp. buy a full stack and the most-expensive would be 140gp.T8 adepts/treasured gear: start at 30gpT8 powders: start at 14gp. buy a full stack and the most-expensive would be 35gp.T8 fragments: start at 36gp. buy a full stack and the most-expensive would be 54gp.So... converting an item to a fragment causes it to gain value, converting it to a powder causes it to lose value. We have a way to convert 10 fragments to 1 powder, so if they were of proportional rarity/value, the fragment should cost 1/10th of the powder, right? That works for infusions and mana... T8 run about 100-110gp/10-11pp, and T9 run 5-6pp/50-60pp. (It's not quite 10-to-1 for powders-to-infusions, but 8-to-1 and 9-to-1 are closer than half-to-1).So fragments are currently overvalued by about TWENTY-to-one.The problem is a relative lack of fragments. Absolutely unarguable, unless you think Economics 101 is a bunch of hooey. (The magnitude of the problem is arguable, but the problem exists. Though "shortages are fine", a shortage that distorts pricing by 2000% should be addressed.)If making a "powders to fragments" downconvert is problematic or exploitable, and increasing Treasured drop rates could break things (and wouldn't affect the ratio, anyway), why can't we just FIX THE ADORNMENT RECIPES? Cut the fragment usage down on the legendary/fabled adornments to 2 or 3 (or maybe 4, but I don't think that will be enough), instead of 6. Problem goes away, no exploitable recursive conversion or farming exploits...

Prrasha

06-04-2010, 05:07 PM

...also, when the "creation rate" of T9 spell rares was off by 3-to-1 (one was on the harvest table three times, the other only once, rather than two-and-two), it was fixed quite quickly.If a suit of plate armor took 7 brellium but chain took 140 brellium, how quickly would it be fixed?If mage spells took 10 incense but priest spells took 200 incense, how quickly would it be fixed?If those two answers are "right quick, of course", what makes this 20-to-1 distortion in crafting components values different?(yes, one difference is "the previous answers are obvious, reduce to 7 brellium and 10 incense, while this one is more nebulous at "much lower than 6 fragments, but we don't know the exact number." So, try something. If it's an overcorrection, change it again in another 3 months. Waiting will not make the problem better.)

Fiora

06-04-2010, 07:31 PM

i guess, need to up the number of treasured loot, after an instance, i often see that we looted more legendary item than treasured.finding an adept is really hard nowdays.So up the droprate of treasured will give more fragment <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Earlhastan

06-06-2010, 08:59 AM

A slight adjustment to use one or two less fragments prerecipe would be nice but I wont loose any sleep over it if it dont happen. I still see my glass as half full, not the other way around...Before the change, everyone was sitting on masses of fragments and had no way of using them. When I ran out of powders I had to stop making adornments or get more somehow. Now we have an excess of powders instead. When I run out of fragments I have to stop crafting or get more, just as before. The real change is that I can make use of the excess powders now. They are by no means wortless to me.So many people keep repeating the word shortage. I think that the proper word would be imbalance. When you have essentially 4 kinds of "rares" to use there will be an imbalance in the numbers however carefully you try to fix it. The Devs came up with the exellent idea of letting us convert the "lower rares" into "higher" ones, thus giving us a way to fix the balance in our own supply ourselves.For someone that transmutes stuff that drops and makes adornments for personal use it works wonders. It even lets people make some extra adornments for sale and thereby getting quite a big profit.For someone that tries to make lots of adornments for sale its easy to get frustrated when looking at the broker. When you look at the broker and see that fragments are more expensive than powders the first thing that leap into your mind should NOT be to compare prices and say that a "higher rare" should cost more than a "lower rare". This is not a productive line of thinking. As you already should have an abundance of powders anyway you dont need to buy them and if you do, be happy they are cheaper so you dont have to pay as much.The demand dictates the prices and it will rise if the supply is short but it finds a stable point to fluctuate around after a while unless something changes the supply. This virtual market is still quite small so its easy for just one person to disrupt prices by buying raws and then try to corner the market. (This happens now and then in all the trades) or you will get undercut by a lot from someone that made a batch of adornments for quick sale from personally harvested and transmuted ingredients. In the longer run the prices dont vary that much though. The prices of adornments have been stable for quite some time now on Antonia Bayle and even been lowered a bit. Yes, fragments costs more than powders, but so what? The final product still sells at a profit. I get lots of extra powders from adventuring...Yay, I can get dirt cheap infusions or even manas.Dont see the obstacles, see the possibilities. This is a game after all and if you get stuck in thewrong type of mindset it will get really boring.You all have to remember that this is a secondary tradeskill and it plays by its own rules.The NPC that introduced you to adorning warned you that it was going to cost you a lot, didnt he?

Davngr1

06-06-2010, 10:31 PM

make the trade up even with the trade down but remove all crafting exp from the convertions. the tresure drop rate is about the same as it was in tos and rok the problem is that adding a up convertion with out a down convertion. that is the imbalance it's really that simple.

Earlhastan

06-07-2010, 10:15 AM

Most people are getting lots of legendary drops from instances and therefore lots of powders and infusions. With an even downconversion every powder would make 10 fragments, every infusion 100 fragments and if your really lucky and get a mana, 1000 fragments. Who needs treasured drops then?No. Its not the possible xp people could get that is a threat to unbalance things, its the downconversion itself. Even with lower rates its still lots. Even at 1 powder to 2 fragments its getting too much when people starts to convert en masse.This problem is not gamebreaking in any way and need noone trying to fix it with a sledgehammer. I rather keep it as it is than the alternatives so far. I agree with Domino that this is not a matter that belong on the to do list of the DEVs. There are lots of other things id rather see they spend their time on.We didnt have up or down conversions before and somehow we managed with very unbalanced supplies.I

Prrasha

06-07-2010, 04:05 PM

This is all from memory, but... pre-SF adornment material usage (assuming 4th bar) treasured: 0+0+1+5 legendary: 0+1+5+4 Fabled: 1+2+4+5 Current adornment material usage: treasured: 0+0+1+3 legendary: 0+1+1+6 fabled: 1+1+2+6 So the fragment:powder ratio improved from 5:1 to 3:1 for Treasured, but worsened from 1:1 to 4:1 (!!!) for Legendary and Fabled. What else happened at the same time? Three things: (1) everyone can make every adornment, (2) upconvert recipes, and (3) new recipes, such that every Treasured adorn has a Legendary version, and often a Fabled version. So the only people using Treasured adorns are (1) expecting to replace the gear they're adorning, (2) cheap, (3) not thinking things through, or (4) just using up adornments they were levelling up Adorning skill with. So the real need for fragments has increased 4x, at the same time they gave us the "fix" to fragment oversupply by letting us upconvert them. Huh? This is obviously silly, and the broker prices support that. Though it takes 100 fragments to make 1 infusion, fragments are priced at 1/5 to 1/4 the value of infusions. For reference, I just ran a pair of (two-boxed) alts thru all of the Stonebrunt quests, including the 3 new questlines. 608 encounters in ACT (very few multi-mob pulls, since warden/brigand doesn't gain much by fighting blue-AE style), and 22 Treasured loot drops. That's maybe 18 fragments if I'm lucky, which is 3 adornments. Since treasured drops in instances are about nil, and I'd have to split them 6 ways anyway, that means I have to farm 200+ solo mobs to make one adornment, once everyone is done blasting through the quests and transmuting the useless quest rewards. That is gonna be FUN, I tell ya. Please reduce fragment usage to 2 or 3 per legendary/fabled adornment.

Davngr1

06-11-2010, 08:05 PM

<cite>Earlhastan wrote:</cite><blockquote>Most people are getting lots of legendary drops from instances and therefore lots of powders and infusions. With an even downconversion every powder would make 10 fragments, every infusion 100 fragments and if your really lucky and get a mana, 1000 fragments. Who needs treasured drops then?No. Its not the possible xp people could get that is a threat to unbalance things, its the downconversion itself. Even with lower rates its still lots. Even at 1 powder to 2 fragments its getting too much when people starts to convert en masse.This problem is not gamebreaking in any way and need noone trying to fix it with a sledgehammer. I rather keep it as it is than the alternatives so far. I agree with Domino that this is not a matter that belong on the to do list of the DEVs. There are lots of other things id rather see they spend their time on.We didnt have up or down conversions before and somehow we managed with very unbalanced supplies.I</blockquote>yea i was thinking about that too. they should probly leave up convertions the way they are but at least allow down convertions from from powers to frags. either way something must be done. having one frag cost 2 plat is just as stupid as having one mana make 500 frags.

Banditman

06-14-2010, 04:52 PM

<cite>Earlhastan wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wow. Let me correct some of this drivel.A slight adjustment to use one or two less fragments prerecipe would be nice but I wont loose any sleep over it if it dont happen. I still see my glass as half full, not the other way around...Before the change, everyone was sitting on masses of fragments and had no way of using them. When I ran out of powders I had to stop making adornments or get more somehow. Now we have an excess of powders instead. When I run out of fragments I have to stop crafting or get more, just as before. The real change is that I can make use of the excess powders now. They are by no means wortless to me.Really? Not worthless? Explain then, if you would please, what exactly are you using all these excess powders for? There are exactly zero recipes that require only powders. There are exactly zero recipes that do not require fragments. So, without fragments, exactly what then do you propose to use all these powders for? Making more infusions? More Mana? You still haven't addressed the fact that you can make all the mana you want, but you don't have the fragments with which to actually, you know, create an adornment.So many people keep repeating the word shortage. I think that the proper word would be imbalance. When you have essentially 4 kinds of "rares" to use there will be an imbalance in the numbers however carefully you try to fix it. The Devs came up with the exellent idea of letting us convert the "lower rares" into "higher" ones, thus giving us a way to fix the balance in our own supply ourselves.The only way the upconvert works to correct imbalance is if the imbalance is that there are more items at the bottom than at the top. That's exactly the problem we have right now. We have no way to correct the balance. The "supply" of raws for adorning (according to the recipes) looks like a pyramid, with Mana at the top and Fragments at the bottom. Unfortunately, the supply looks like a diamond, with few Mana and few Fragments, but excess Infusions and Powders. Upconvert, right now, would only exacerbate the issue by creating a reverse pyramid of supply.For someone that transmutes stuff that drops and makes adornments for personal use it works wonders. It even lets people make some extra adornments for sale and thereby getting quite a big profit.I transmute everything that drops. That is the problem everyone has been trying to point out. If you run zones all weekend, as I did this last weekend, you wind up with a diamond shaped supply, not a pyramid shaped supply. It's all screwed up. I had as many Infusions as I did Fragments! The drop rate of Treasured items in this tier is beyond pathetic.For someone that tries to make lots of adornments for sale its easy to get frustrated when looking at the broker. When you look at the broker and see that fragments are more expensive than powders the first thing that leap into your mind should NOT be to compare prices and say that a "higher rare" should cost more than a "lower rare". This is not a productive line of thinking. As you already should have an abundance of powders anyway you dont need to buy them and if you do, be happy they are cheaper so you dont have to pay as much.What? That didn't even make any sense! Cost is irrelevant! It's supply that is the problem!The demand dictates the prices and it will rise if the supply is short but it finds a stable point to fluctuate around after a while unless something changes the supply. This virtual market is still quite small so its easy for just one person to disrupt prices by buying raws and then try to corner the market. (This happens now and then in all the trades) or you will get undercut by a lot from someone that made a batch of adornments for quick sale from personally harvested and transmuted ingredients. In the longer run the prices dont vary that much though.No it doesn't. Demand and supply converge to determine price. Once again, this is the problem. The supply side of the equation is all [Removed for Content]. Demand is fine. How screwed up is supply? Treasured items are selling for comparable prices to Legendary! That's madness! The prices of adornments have been stable for quite some time now on Antonia Bayle and even been lowered a bit. Yes, fragments costs more than powders, but so what? The final product still sells at a profit. I get lots of extra powders from adventuring...Yay, I can get dirt cheap infusions or even manas.So what? That's not how it should work, according to the previous eight tiers, that's what. Cheap Infusions? Cheap Mana? So what! You still need Fragments to actually make something.Dont see the obstacles, see the possibilities. This is a game after all and if you get stuck in thewrong type of mindset it will get really boring.Boring? Let me tell you about boring. Boring is pulling the Old Paineel Ruins for 5 hours - as many mobs as I can get to follow me without breaking, killing fast enough that I can completely clear the ruins and wait for repops, and walking way with 23 Fragments.You all have to remember that this is a secondary tradeskill and it plays by its own rules.The NPC that introduced you to adorning warned you that it was going to cost you a lot, didnt he?Oh, you mean the text that was applicable when Transmuting was first introduced? That text? Transmuting is broken right now. We have the ability to produce some of the most desireable items ever available for a crafter, and no means to actually, you know, make the items.</blockquote>

Earlhastan

06-14-2010, 06:06 PM

My two main points Ive tried to make in this thread has been:1. Just because we where given a recipe for an upconversion it doesnt equal we should be given a recipe for a downconversion. I still think that would be a bloody stupid idea. If they should tweak anything, increase the droprates of treasureds or reduce the fragments needed in recipes. People see the wrong solution to the problem.2. If you are only making adornments for yourself, there isnt such a big problem. Sure you do get too many powders. But in the long run you turn them into infusions and manas and since you use up 100 powders to get one mana you will hardly have that large a supply. The only ones really affected here is the people making adornments for the broker. IF they want to compete on the market they can easily do so but they have to invest a huge wad of cash. Hence the supply and demand reference. The supply is [Removed for Content], therefore the price goes through the roof.I never said I was happy with the supply but id rather keep things as they are than bullying Domino to do some rash nerfing somewhere. The problem lies with the low droprates of treasured items and its on that people should focus their attention on telling the DEVs.

Davngr1

06-15-2010, 11:23 AM

<cite>Earlhastan wrote:</cite><blockquote>My two main points Ive tried to make in this thread has been:1. Just because we where given a recipe for an upconversion it doesnt equal we should be given a recipe for a downconversion. I still think that would be a bloody stupid idea. If they should tweak anything, increase the droprates of treasureds or reduce the fragments needed in recipes. People see the wrong solution to the problem.2. If you are only making adornments for yourself, there isnt such a big problem. Sure you do get too many powders. But in the long run you turn them into infusions and manas and since you use up 100 powders to get one mana you will hardly have that large a supply. The only ones really affected here is the people making adornments for the broker. IF they want to compete on the market they can easily do so but they have to invest a huge wad of cash. Hence the supply and demand reference. The supply is [Removed for Content], therefore the price goes through the roof.I never said I was happy with the supply but id rather keep things as they are than bullying Domino to do some rash nerfing somewhere. The problem lies with the low droprates of treasured items and its on that people should focus their attention on telling the DEVs.</blockquote>wrong. adding an up convertion with out a down convertion was indeed the reason why frags are over a plat a piece now. further more people who want personal adornments but can't spend 200 plat+ or endless mentoring to level up transmuting are stuck paying 10 plat for a tresured adornment and mind you, this is raw cost only! like another poster said the "dimond" is what needs to be fixed. the best way to do this is to cut the "dimond" in half so we get a "pyramid". it should look like this: 1. allow power down convertion to frags. 2.maybe mana down convertion to infusions. ( i dont see any problem with this but if there is please post) 3. REMOVE all experience skill up from convertions. (this is about supply not leveling)edit. further more adding more tresure drops will just add to the massive amount of coin in the world since the game lacks any real plat sinks.

Valdaglerion

06-15-2010, 06:25 PM

Or leave it alone because it isnt really broken to begin with.

Davngr1

06-15-2010, 08:57 PM

<cite>Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Or leave it alone because it isnt really broken to begin with.</blockquote> why put in up convertions at all then? if not to fix the broken ratio between infusions and manas? so if that's how things are being delt with why not let powers be down converted into shards to fix the broken ratio between powers and frags? why leave something half done when it would be so easy to fix it all? yes there are exploits but they can be avoided by only adding power to frag down convertions and taking away all trade skill experience from convertions.

Valdaglerion

06-15-2010, 11:32 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Or leave it alone because it isnt really broken to begin with.</blockquote> why put in up convertions at all then? if not to fix the broken ratio between infusions and manas? so if that's how things are being delt with why not let powers be down converted into shards to fix the broken ratio between powers and frags? why leave something half done when it would be so easy to fix it all? yes there are exploits but they can be avoided by only adding power to frag down convertions and taking away all trade skill experience from convertions.</blockquote>Ok, I give in. Domino please allow us to distill up and down and while we are at it throw in distilling between the tiers as well keeping in mind the first law of alchemy, "Equivalent Exchange".Takes 1000 fragments to make 1 mana and it should be equivalent going down. Between tiers it should be less to convert mana to a higher mana, probably 2:1 so 2 T1 mana = 1 T mana making about 20 T1 mana = 1 Distilled mana.Thoughts?<div></div><div></div><div></div>

Rijacki

06-15-2010, 11:39 PM

<cite>Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Or leave it alone because it isnt really broken to begin with.</blockquote> why put in up convertions at all then? if not to fix the broken ratio between infusions and manas? so if that's how things are being delt with why not let powers be down converted into shards to fix the broken ratio between powers and frags? why leave something half done when it would be so easy to fix it all? yes there are exploits but they can be avoided by only adding power to frag down convertions and taking away all trade skill experience from convertions.</blockquote>Ok, I give in. Domino please allow us to distill up and down and while we are at it throw in distilling between the tiers as well keeping in mind the first law of alchemy, "Equivalent Exchange".Takes 1000 fragments to make 1 mana and it should be equivalent going down. Between tiers it should be less to convert mana to a higher mana, probably 2:1 so 2 T1 mana = 1 T mana making about 20 T1 mana = 1 Distilled mana.Thoughts?</blockquote>If the exchange was "equivalent" with no loss, then there would be no need to make adornments to skill up nor even to get any more than a base number of items. One could just do conversions up and down for a flat fuel cost between. Since the components are tradable, more than one person could level up just converting up and down.

Valdaglerion

06-16-2010, 01:21 AM

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Or leave it alone because it isnt really broken to begin with.</blockquote> why put in up convertions at all then? if not to fix the broken ratio between infusions and manas? so if that's how things are being delt with why not let powers be down converted into shards to fix the broken ratio between powers and frags? why leave something half done when it would be so easy to fix it all? yes there are exploits but they can be avoided by only adding power to frag down convertions and taking away all trade skill experience from convertions.</blockquote>Ok, I give in. Domino please allow us to distill up and down and while we are at it throw in distilling between the tiers as well keeping in mind the first law of alchemy, "Equivalent Exchange".Takes 1000 fragments to make 1 mana and it should be equivalent going down. Between tiers it should be less to convert mana to a higher mana, probably 2:1 so 2 T1 mana = 1 T mana making about 20 T1 mana = 1 Distilled mana.Thoughts?</blockquote>If the exchange was "equivalent" with no loss, then there would be no need to make adornments to skill up nor even to get any more than a base number of items. One could just do conversions up and down for a flat fuel cost between. Since the components are tradable, more than one person could level up just converting up and down.</blockquote>Oh there are far worse implications on this whole discussion than leveling Rijacki. Come on, you can level 0-90 in no time for tradeskilling and you can level for next to nothing doing the adorning mission. Its what can be done once you have the skill.Well, I am going to stay out of this conversation and see if Domino will actually put it in.