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Jesdyr

04-12-2010, 03:20 PM

Dear SOE -Please make Amnesia into a 20k nuke.- JesDyryes .. I had Amnesia III drop the other day .. Hard to get excited about a master that I have not used since Labratory of Lord Vyemm ...

Chalkydri

04-12-2010, 06:43 PM

To add to this, I REALLY think they should change it because if you try using it on anything in Tier 9, it pops up a message saying the mob is immune... ok why do we have a spell this expansion that does NOTHING? Im not asking for a 20k nuke or anything but maybe a similar change like Shadowknights had with Grave Sacrament, went from a junky pet to an amazing AE taunt.

Aule

04-13-2010, 03:20 AM

And you know what the super lame thing is? The fact that the spell is worthwhile in pvp will probably keep it from being changed from absolutely worthless in pve.

Jesdyr

04-14-2010, 11:58 AM

I would be happy if it was just changed to a complete reset like disappearing act.At least then it could save some people a little repair cost in raids.

Jeepned2

04-14-2010, 05:26 PM

Many of our spells got updates that are useless. And if you are a raider such as myself, out of the 25 updated spells we got, 6 (24%) are totally useless, and 5 (20%)are partially useless. Additionally 5 of our spells that were not updated are also useless. So it seems that SoE is very happy with Coercers being very handicapped in raiding environments.Partially UselessSilence - The Stifle portion does not work on raid mobs.Shock Wave - The Stun portion does not work on raid mobs.Ego Shock - The Daze portion does not work on raid mobs.Brainshock - Doesn't reduce mana of raid mobs, since they don't use mana anymore.Simple Minds - Doesn't reduce mana of raid mobs, since they don't use mana anymore.Totally UselessMedusa Gaze - Does not Stun raid mobs.Forced Hesitation - Does not Stun or Root raid mobs.Pure Awe - Does not Mez raid mobs.Mezmerize - Does not Mez raid mobs.Charm - Does not Mez raid mobs.Amnesia - Does not Mem Wipe raid mobs.Non-updated Totally UselessStupity - Does not stun raid mobs.Possess Essence - Does not make a copy of a Named raid mob.Mindbend - Does not Stun raid mobs.Dispel Magic - Does not Dispell anything on raid mobs.Reek of Terror - Does not Fear raid mobs.Do don't plan on anything getting fixed or improved.

DwarvesR

04-15-2010, 12:32 AM

<cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Partially Useless Silence - The Stifle portion does not work on raid mobs.Hasn't worked on named mobs since RoK came out either, but it's still a [Removed for Content] fine DOT spell, which is the main reason I cast it anyway. Sure it's marginally useful when soloing ^^^ non-named to effectively stunlock the thing, but in normal play it's a DOT for me and the stifle portion is irrelevant. Shock Wave - The Stun portion does not work on raid mobs.And never has. Your point? It's still a nice blue ae damage spell. Ego Shock - The Daze portion does not work on raid mobs.And never has. And due to it's long recast not really effective as a nuke either, but I cast it anyway since it keeps perpetuity going and hey... damage is damage. Brainshock - Doesn't reduce mana of raid mobs, since they don't use mana anymore.Wow. Mana draining hasn't meant anything at all on any mob since LU13 or so, and we're on GU55 now. This is a complete and utter non-issue. On the bright side, it still gives power to us, and is a really nice DOT to boot, so I cast it all the time. . . . Simple Minds - Doesn't reduce mana of raid mobs, since they don't use mana anymore.Same answer as Brainshock, except e don't gain power from casting it. Big whoop. Totally Useless Medusa Gaze - Does not Stun raid mobs.But in 3 seconds it still casts the nice nuke on termination, so it's still worth casting. Forced Hesitation - Does not Stun or Root raid mobs.I don't ever recall any raid mob being root-able. So? Pure Awe - Does not Mez raid mobs.Haven't tried it on trash, and as per usual doesn't work on named and everyone's going after the named anyway and would break it about 0.0000000001 seconds after you cast it, so why would you even bother? Mezmerize - Does not Mez raid mobs.And while it used to work for 1/3 duration on some (buit then gave them something like a 3 minute immunity timer and so was kinda useless to cast anyway) it doesn't now and as a result doesn't get cast. Again, so what? Charm - Does not Mez raid mobs.Becuz THAT wouldn't be overpowered or anything. /rolleyes Amnesia - Does not Mem Wipe raid mobs.This is not true -- it still works on the KoS stuff <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But yeah, it hasn't worked on pretty much anything since RoK came out, not even regular heroic named either. So? Non-updated Totally Useless Stupefy - Does not stun raid mobs.And hasn't for a long time. We're pretty used to this now. . . . Possess Essence - Does not make a copy of a Named raid mob.And never has, but it does copy non-named so it's still usefull if you've got the myth and no conc cost. Mindbend - Does not Stun raid mobs.You actually have this on your hotbar? Dispel Magic - Does not Dispel anything on raid mobs.Doesn't dispel much of anything on any mob. And this is a mage spell, not a coercer spell. I don't see the other mages complaining. And in a thread on the coercer forum I see lots of us saying it's not on our hotbars either. IOW -- useless forever and we're used to it. Reek of Terror - Does not Fear raid mobs.You use this at times other than when you accidentally get mobbed while soloing? Weird.</blockquote>Copy/paste of my response to you in general. I see a lot of complaints but not a lot of substance to be complaining about.What I'm more upset about is that our crits are 1.3x instead of 1.5x like the other mages. That is substantive. But to complain about how spells have worked for over 2 years? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />

Hecula

04-15-2010, 12:39 AM

<cite>Jonna@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>But to complain about how spells have worked for over 2 years? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Yes, because we should all just accept that we have a lot of broken and useless spells because that's been the status quo for 2 years.In ROK, our class was given the ability to DPS to compensate for being a boring class that was completely underplayed. Even our ROK BP points to this. In SF we've been nerfed back to where we were prior to getting the ability to DPS. We're still broken - we were never fixed. Now the bone that was thrown our way has also been taken back.

Scyen

04-15-2010, 12:40 AM

<cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Many of our spells got updates that are useless. And if you are a raider such as myself, out of the 25 updated spells we got, 6 (24%) are totally useless, and 5 (20%)are partially useless. Additionally 5 of our spells that were not updated are also useless. So it seems that SoE is very happy with Coercers being very handicapped in raiding environments.Partially UselessSilence - The Stifle portion does not work on raid mobs.Shock Wave - The Stun portion does not work on raid mobs.Ego Shock - The Daze portion does not work on raid mobs.Brainshock - Doesn't reduce mana of raid mobs, since they don't use mana anymore.Simple Minds - Doesn't reduce mana of raid mobs, since they don't use mana anymore.Totally UselessMedusa Gaze - Does not Stun raid mobs.Forced Hesitation - Does not Stun or Root raid mobs.Pure Awe - Does not Mez raid mobs.Mezmerize - Does not Mez raid mobs.Charm - Does not Mez raid mobs.Amnesia - Does not Mem Wipe raid mobs.Non-updated Totally UselessStupity - Does not stun raid mobs.Possess Essence - Does not make a copy of a Named raid mob.Mindbend - Does not Stun raid mobs.Dispel Magic - Does not Dispell anything on raid mobs.Reek of Terror - Does not Fear raid mobs.Do don't plan on anything getting fixed or improved.</blockquote>thanks for listing ...after reading it. kindly depress for coercer design ....

Jesdyr

04-15-2010, 02:07 PM

<cite>Jonna@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I'm more upset about is that our crits are 1.3x instead of 1.5x like the other mages. That is substantive.</blockquote>That is about 11% less DPS.What we need is a few of our spells to get about a 10% increase to their base numbers. Everything else can stay how it is .. but I would still like Amnesia to work like bristlebane' disappearing act.<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=476424" target="_blank">dont overlook the sticky</a>

Jeepned2

04-16-2010, 02:30 AM

<cite>Jonna@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Partially Useless Silence - The Stifle portion does not work on raid mobs.Hasn't worked on named mobs since RoK came out either, but it's still a [Removed for Content] fine DOT spell, which is the main reason I cast it anyway. Sure it's marginally useful when soloing ^^^ non-named to effectively stunlock the thing, but in normal play it's a DOT for me and the stifle portion is irrelevant. I still use this also, but still doesn't take away fromt he fact that only half of the spell is effective. Shock Wave - The Stun portion does not work on raid mobs.And never has. Your point? It's still a nice blue ae damage spell. Not a nice, but critical blue spell since it's our only non-aa aoe ability and does really big damage! Ego Shock - The Daze portion does not work on raid mobs.And never has. And due to it's long recast not really effective as a nuke either, but I cast it anyway since it keeps perpetuity going and hey... damage is damage. Ah but it did used to work on raid mobs, unfortunately it was way back in T5. I don't even have this on a hot bar, more effective spells are back up for use before I'd need to cast this to keep damage going. Brainshock - Doesn't reduce mana of raid mobs, since they don't use mana anymore.Wow. Mana draining hasn't meant anything at all on any mob since LU13 or so, and we're on GU55 now. This is a complete and utter non-issue. On the bright side, it still gives power to us, and is a really nice DOT to boot, so I cast it all the time. . . . Guess you don't remember in T7 that this was a critical spell for a named mob, drain mana down so he could aoe anymore then beat the snot out of him. Will have to go back and look for the name of the mob but was in the zone where the scorpoin men where outside the zone. This should let you know how little I group and solo. Simple Minds - Doesn't reduce mana of raid mobs, since they don't use mana anymore.Same answer as Brainshock, except e don't gain power from casting it. Big whoop. Ah my point exactly, other classes who had mana drain spells with the exception of Illusionist and troubadours all had their mana drain spells turned into something else that became useful. This didn't happen to any of our mana drain spells. Totally Useless Medusa Gaze - Does not Stun raid mobs.But in 3 seconds it still casts the nice nuke on termination, so it's still worth casting. I don't bother, my casting rotation is set and this didn't make the cut. Forced Hesitation - Does not Stun or Root raid mobs.I don't ever recall any raid mob being root-able. So? In T5 and T6 many of the non-named raid mobs could be rooted. That went away quickly in both cases though. Pure Awe - Does not Mez raid mobs.Haven't tried it on trash, and as per usual doesn't work on named and everyone's going after the named anyway and would break it about 0.0000000001 seconds after you cast it, so why would you even bother? Mezzing was suppose to be a primary ability of our class, the fact that no one anymore knows how to work with a toon with mezz just shows how far from our original reason for being here we have wondered. I can't even mezz in groups anymore since no one even think about it anymore. It use to be that you could take on really hard mobs with a group by having them mezzed and letting the tank drag one out a time for killing. When was the last time you did that? Mezmerize - Does not Mez raid mobs.And while it used to work for 1/3 duration on some (buit then gave them something like a 3 minute immunity timer and so was kinda useless to cast anyway) it doesn't now and as a result doesn't get cast. Again, so what? Same as Pure Awe. And if they plan to keep it so useless, why give us a T9 version? Charm - Does not Mez raid mobs.Becuz THAT wouldn't be overpowered or anything. /rolleyes I don't want to charm the named mobs, but I don't see the problem with trash mobs in raid zones. Well actually I do, the conjurors, necros and everyone else who hate enchanters would whine forever about it. Jeez, I wouldn't want to be able to do my primary job in a raid zone. Personally I think to even it out, Assassins shouldn't be able to back stab in raid zones, Rangers shouldn't be allowed to use a bow in raid zones, and Wizards shouldn't get to use Ice Comet in raid zones. And since I'm on a roll here, Conjurors and Necros shouldn't be allowed to cast pets in raid zones either. Amnesia - Does not Mem Wipe raid mobs.This is not true -- it still works on the KoS stuff <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> But yeah, it hasn't worked on pretty much anything since RoK came out, not even regular heroic named either. So? Again though, why shouldnt it work? SoE never gave a decent reason for nerfing it, they just did it and that was that. Non-updated Totally Useless Stupefy - Does not stun raid mobs.And hasn't for a long time. We're pretty used to this now. . . . See more on this later Possess Essence - Does not make a copy of a Named raid mob.And never has, but it does copy non-named so it's still usefull if you've got the myth and no conc cost. Ah but grasshopper, when we first got it, you could copy a named mob in VP. Again like many things it lasted about two weeks before out of no where, you couldn't anymore. Wasn't even in the uodate notes, just all of a sudden you couldn't do it anymore. Surprised? Mindbend - Does not Stun raid mobs.You actually have this on your hotbar? No I don't actualy, had to go through my knowledge book to find over half of these to start with. Dispel Magic - Does not Dispel anything on raid mobs.Doesn't dispel much of anything on any mob. And this is a mage spell, not a coercer spell. I don't see the other mages complaining. And in a thread on the coercer forum I see lots of us saying it's not on our hotbars either. IOW -- useless forever and we're used to it. True, all mages have this spell and it doesn't work for any of us, but again (I know, I'm sounding like a broken record) why shouldn't it. Would it be that big of a game changers? Maybe, but at least let it do something! Reek of Terror - Does not Fear raid mobs.You use this at times other than when you accidentally get mobbed while soloing? Weird. Use it all the time during duels, works very well btw, unless they resist it. Works really well on the docks of East Freeport. If you get lucky and run them off into the water, they can't get out since to do so they would have to forfet the fight. And if it's a tank, they can't hit you and if you stay our of thier range, just sneak and and hit them with Shock Wave everytime it's up. It's one of the few ways I ever found to kill an SK : ) . But yes, on a few occasions during the wipe I one of the few left standing (not sure why, must be luck on occasion) but would be nice if this worked to give me a couple of extra seconds to use my tinkered FD. I hate having to revive and run all the way back to where ever we where : ) .</blockquote>Copy/paste of my response to you in general. I see a lot of complaints but not a lot of substance to be complaining about.What I'm more upset about is that our crits are 1.3x instead of 1.5x like the other mages. That is substantive. But to complain about how spells have worked for over 2 years? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></blockquote> "IOW -- useless forever and we're used to it."Here is where my complaint is. Yes were are used to it. The question is, should we be used to it? The point is that along with our brethen Illusioinsts, the enchanters have by far the most useless or semi-useless spells/ca's of all the other classes. And if they are so useless, why is SoE wasting time and effort to even update them with higher level versions? When approximately 50% of your spells fall into these two catagories there is something seriously screwed up with your class. If it were say 4 or 5 of our spells would be one thing, but 15? All this proves to me is that SoE has no clue what enchanters should be and I seriously doubt any of these spells will be addressed and will continue to linger in their current pitiful state. Many enchanters kind of knew we had a bunch of useless spells, but as far as I know it's the first time all of them have been listed. By seeing them actually listed makes it feel even more screwed up. Also remember I stated that I was addressing them from a raiders point of view. Many of the spells listed work fine for group and soloing. The only problem is, I almost never solo or group. I also realize that hard core raider numbers for Coercers is probably small so this isn't a big issue for many. I just wanted to point out that for raiders, and those who think some day that they may want to become raiders, just realize that you will be cleaning out your hot bars of the useless junk.

Hecula

04-16-2010, 10:10 PM

<cite>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>That is about 11% less DPS.</blockquote>How so? Would love to see the fuzzy math on this one.

Jesdyr

04-23-2010, 04:32 PM

<cite>Hecula wrote:</cite><blockquote>How so? Would love to see the fuzzy math on this one.</blockquote>It is varriable .. but, Lets say you have 50% crit bonus from gear and buffs and had a spell that did 5k damage. the Math looks like this.5000 * (1.3 + .5) = 9,0005000 * (1.5 + .5) = 10,000Even with 0 crit bonus going to 1.5 from 1.3 would only see a gain of about 14%That 20% extra crit bonus is not a 20% gain like people seem to think. Combine that with the fact that not all your damage benefits from crits (maybe about 10% of your damage) and the % gain becomes even less.

Hecula

04-23-2010, 11:57 PM

In the first example, 1.3 mod with 50% crit bonus increased the initial spell by 80% 5000->9000In the second example, 1.5 mod (additional 20%) with 50% crit bonus increased the initial spell by 100% 5000->10000So an addition of 20% crit bonus increased the initial spell amount 20% more than without.Just to check the math, let's do another one. Let's base it on a spell that does 3370 damage and 60% crit mod.3370*(1.3+.60) = 6403 - an increase in damage of 90%3370*(1.5+.60) = 7077 - an increase in damage of 110%So adding 20% crit bonus increases the initial spell damage 20%Again, it checks out.Where does the 14% come in?

DwarvesR

04-24-2010, 01:16 AM

Looks like a "lies, [Removed for Content] lies, and statistics" thing. As you pointed out, base damage increases by 20% in all cases, but the modified damage only increases by 11-14% -- statistically, anyway. Gotta love how you can make numbers say anything you want when you don't compare apples and oranges, but pretend to be doing so.

DwarvesR

04-24-2010, 01:36 AM

<cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jonna@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite><stuff></blockquote></blockquote>I thought about doing the whole line by line reply, but decided against it. I played my coercer back when every class had so much CC ability that the only reason to take a coercer anywhere was for Breeze. And CC abilities didn't work on any raid mob in any way whatsoever.Then came The Great CC Nerf(tm). Removed or nerfed most classes CC abilites, even the Chanters, but gave us the ability to affect raid mobs, just with 1/3 duration and a 3x duration immunity timer. Made it so if you timed it right you could prevent timed AE's and such, but other than that, still functionally useless.But for non-raid stuff, our CC made us gods. Frankly, it still does. If I can mez it, I can kill it. Period. And thus, most named in the last few expansions have been made control immune, so we can't solo farm instances for masters and "phat lewts." Yeah, it was lazy on the devs part as a way of making it so we couldn't do it, since it turned us into simple mana batteries on named fights again. Screwed healers over too, since on the trash we'd stunlock things and they wouldn't need to cast heals at all, so they'd dps, then we'd hit a named and they wouldn't be ready to have to do some heavy healing, but... such is life.Still and all, the outcry of being useless against named was loud enough that we got some nice dps added to us in GU45 and our spells stopped working at cross purposes to each other as well. And to the non-raider, that made us "useful" both as a soloer where we no longer "had" to rely on a pet to do our dps for us and in groups where our regen and buffs were nice, but no longer the only reason we were wanted along.Sadly, the raiders are still left in the cold here, since the epic mobs get 1/3 duration and 3x immunity still, assuming they aren't totally immune. And when they are totally immune, well... we still have our buffs, our dehate, our regen, and our dps. Not a bad package, all things considered. Though as we go up in level and get better gear our buffs aren't meaning so much anymore.It does leave us in an interesting situation. CC is extremely powerful after all, and if it's not limited in some fashion it does make us "epic" in our own right. And you're right, in its current implementation it does seem to be too limited vs raid mobs and named. I'll admit that since I'm not a raider I haven't given it much thought, though, so I don't have any ideas on how it could be fixed or made better. And I don't see in your post any ideas toward that end either, just complaints that portions of our spells don't work.So my question is this: how would you chance it to make it so that our CC would work against raid mobs without overpowering us as a class?

Dannnybones

04-24-2010, 01:54 AM

Considering healers can feed enough power from tier 8 zarrakon belts that we don't even need to flow, it's kindof stupid that we dont have more dps.

Hecula

04-24-2010, 02:20 AM

<cite>Jonna@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Looks like a "lies, [Removed for Content] lies, and statistics" thing. As you pointed out, base damage increases by 20% in all cases, but the modified damage only increases by 11-14% -- statistically, anyway. Gotta love how you can make numbers say anything you want when you don't compare apples and oranges, but pretend to be doing so.</blockquote>Yea, that was my issue when I read something like this posted elsewhere. I think someone basically twisted the numbers around. Saying that going from 130% crit to 150% crit was raising 130% 20% so 20 divided by 130 means that the 20% increase is only a 15.4% increase because it's increasing a base value of 130%. Or something along those lines.At the end of the day, 20% crit bonus makes things hit at least 20% harder. That's what my primary interest is. Not crunching numbers to arrive at false conclusions.

Rijacki

04-25-2010, 02:40 PM

<cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><blockquote>Same answer as Brainshock, except e don't gain power from casting it. Big whoop. Ah my point exactly, other classes who had mana drain spells with the exception of Illusionist and troubadours all had their mana drain spells turned into something else that became useful. This didn't happen to any of our mana drain spells. </blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>Pre-GU45, Simple minds was only a mana drain, if I remember rightly. All others of our power drains also didn't do the damage they do now. We DID get the changes to the mana drain spells.Oh and the fight you were trying to point out as a mana drain fight in RoK was the B-something a Named sperm with teeth. A couple months after RoK went live, the encounter was changed and his main attacks were no longer power based making power drain on that fight totally pointless, too (and I think his power pool was increased as well to make draining it too cumbersome to be useful for getting rid of his -few- spells that used it).

Jeepned2

04-25-2010, 09:27 PM

<cite>Jonna@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>So my question is this: how would you chance it to make it so that our CC would work against raid mobs without overpowering us as a class?</blockquote>Actually I don't recommend any changes to our CC abilities in raids anymore. It's very obvious that it is a dead issue as far as SoE is concerned. But there have been others who have made some good recommendations in the Coercer section.On of the more interesting is the ability to charm trash mobs in raid zones. Once charmed it is lowered in level to that of the Chanter. There have been several recommendations on mezzing. Right now I don't know of any T9 raid mobs that are not immune to mezz and stun, the reduced epic effects are moot since all of the immunity. Raiding for a Coercer has become a joke for the most part. Almost getting to the Troub point of buff and forget. Since I'm in a group with a Mystic, I don't even do much mana regen anymore, don't need to (I do find myself mana buffing the Illusionist groups more though due to their mana regen nerf). Maybe I'm just getting to wrapped up in the constant screwing with our class. And maybe it's getting to the point that I need to just hang up my Coercer and forget he's there anymore and not care what they do to the class. I don't know. Just wish they (SoE) could just finally figure out what they plan on doing with the raid inability of Enchanters. That would make it easy for me to decide for sure one way or the other is I'll continue to be a Coercer. Just seems a shame to be an Enchanter for 11 years (counting my EQ1 time) and finding it harder and harder to log on to him. The two classes had so much potential when the game started and since LU13 or LU17 depending on your point of view, we have been steadily going to crap with the exception of the huge upward spike when they decided for awhile that we would be serious DPS (in exchange for not fixing our CC abilities then).

Jesdyr

04-26-2010, 04:10 PM

<cite>Hecula wrote:</cite><blockquote>Where does the 14% come in?</blockquote>Because we are not talking about and increase over the base damage of a spell we are talking about an increase to your DPS over what you are currently doing. Not relative to a spell's base damage. People seem to think that if they are doing 10k DPS now, that getting the 1.5 multiplier will put them at 12k and it will not.The formula is not that easy to being with since going to a 1.5 modifier could be a 0% increases if you had a 0% chance to crit. I used numbers figuring 100% crit chance because it is easier. I also didn't include any damage spread on the base damage of the spell which also effects this because of how crit damage is calculated.14% DPS gain was a guess based on what I think an average player's stats would be. The higher end player would see less gain then the more casual that has less gear.<cite>Hecula wrote:</cite><blockquote>At the end of the day, 20% crit bonus makes things hit at least 20% harder.</blockquote>See but it doesn't make your spell that is currently doing 1000 do 1200. That is the point. Also not everything that is part of your DPS will see an increase.