sk's...

[Rotate]

<p>come on brawlers should be toping fighter dps how far ahead sk's are is just sad =/... cesium = sk.</p><p>tone them down! =p</p><p>210649.10 - a fanged Zeklord: (00:30) 6319473 | 210649.10 [Cesium-Harm Touch-80484]Cesium 1265643 | 42188.10Rophin 762564 | 25418.80Snipex 721603 | 24053.43Shawny 682591 | 22753.03Rotate 626046 | 20868.20Azroc 621736 | 20724.53Sinclaire 496306 | 16543.53Hukaro 459337 | 15311.23Cynix 343056 | 11435.20Mannya 231765 | 7725.50Rancherbob 61124 | 2037.47Ambiguous 47702 | 1590.07Cynix's un 0 | 0.00</p><p>205116.40 - High Marus Alaric: (02:14) 27485597 | 205116.40 [Cesium-Harm Touch-77353]Cesium 6945578 | 51832.67Rotate 3294680 | 24587.16Hukaro 3056910 | 22812.76Shawny 3023370 | 22562.46Snipex 2712486 | 20242.43Rophin 2531258 | 18889.98Azroc 2526103 | 18851.52Sinclaire 1355972 | 10119.19Mannya 641198 | 4785.06Cynix 560626 | 4183.78Ambiguous 439410 | 3279.18Rancherbob 398006 | 2970.19Snipex's a 0 | 0.00Azroc's th 0 | 0.00</p>

[Kota]

yeah the state of crusaders, sk's mainly, just bloez my mind. the devs HAVE to know they are OP. how could they not know ? it's almost like they want there to be an 'i win' class.

[Landiin]

<p>They know, EVERY one know SK are the best all around tank bar none. I just wonder what dev plays one that has the pull to keep it that OP for so long. I don't really care they can DPS so high, what I do care about is their survivability isn't that far behind the best def tanks in the game and the CAY DPS that high at the same time. But /shrug what do I know.</p>

[Cloakentuna]

<p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They know, EVERY one know SK are the best all around tank bar none. I just wonder what dev plays one that has the pull to keep it that OP for so long. I don't really care they can DPS so high, what I do care about is their survivability isn't that far behind the best def tanks in the game and the CAY DPS that high at the same time. But /shrug what do I know.</p></blockquote><p>Zoltaroth plays one.  I've heard the new guy Xelgad plays one, but don't know for sure.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They know, EVERY one know SK are the best all around tank bar none. I just wonder what dev plays one that has the pull to keep it that OP for so long. I don't really care they can DPS so high, what I do care about is their survivability isn't that far behind the best def tanks in the game and the CAY DPS that high at the same time. But /shrug what do I know.</p></blockquote><p>SK is the level all tanks should be rather then nerf them they should use them as the bar and buff other classes up to their level.</p>

[Kota]

i don't agree with this. too many complaints already about this expansion being easy. crusaders pretty much trivialize aggro as it is. with this many classes you can never really expect true balance, and if you just keep bumping them up in an effort to lvl them off, you'll trivialize the whole game. to me it doesn't make sense for tanks to be doing so much damage anyway. imo tanks should do significantly less damage, and def stance should have a significant hate mod.

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>SK is the level all tanks should be</p></blockquote><p>You should have to do work to hold aggro, not just face roll. Give shadowknights the survivability of a ranger and they would only be slightly OP.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>SK is the level all tanks should be</p></blockquote><p>You should have to do work to hold aggro, not just face roll. Give shadowknights the survivability of a ranger and they would only be slightly OP.</p></blockquote><p>This game should be fun not work, and even the worst of tanks don't really have to struggle much for agro.</p>

[MrWolfie]

<p>1. How much of his parse is other people's procs and damage shields/wards?</p><p>2. Yes, Brawlers should do more DPS than plate.</p><p>3. Brawlers can't hold aggro against even the mystic ghost dog when pulling multiple encounters (even with crane twirl and flock active).</p><p>So, while I agree that the Brawler DPS isn't where it should be, and that their AOE hate generating ability is also not good enough, a parse is just a bunch of unqualified numbers signifying nothing.</p>

[Boli32]

<p>Damage shields on tanks count for a lot - factor in that and its a lot closer.</p>

[Kota]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>SK is the level all tanks should be</p></blockquote><p>You should have to do work to hold aggro, not just face roll. Give shadowknights the survivability of a ranger and they would only be slightly OP.</p></blockquote><p>This game should be fun not work, and even the worst of tanks don't really have to struggle much for agro.</p></blockquote><p>fun for me and most ppl involves something of a challenge.  and i'm guessing you're one of those ppl that never does anything w/o a guild group, because even the worst crusaders do in fact struggle for aggro.  i play a zerk and i have some pugs that just wear my aggro out.  you can be a cool guy and say something like 'LOL THEN YOU SUCK LOL' but everyone who knows anything about a zerk knows that the majority of zerk aggro comes from aa and other passive things.  adrenaline rush, experienced insight, aggressive defense, aggressive nature, reversal of fortune, to name most of them.  after that it's all hate given by other ppl.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>SK is the level all tanks should be</p></blockquote><p>You should have to do work to hold aggro, not just face roll. Give shadowknights the survivability of a ranger and they would only be slightly OP.</p></blockquote><p>This game should be fun not work, and even the worst of tanks don't really have to struggle much for agro.</p></blockquote><p>This game is so easy after 15-20 minutes of tanking I'm ready to be done for a few days. I guess if you find no challenge at all fun, then that's your thing. You probably like tic-tac-toe too where the worst outcome is you tie...</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>SK is the level all tanks should be</p></blockquote><p>You should have to do work to hold aggro, not just face roll. Give shadowknights the survivability of a ranger and they would only be slightly OP.</p></blockquote><p>This game should be fun not work, and even the worst of tanks don't really have to struggle much for agro.</p></blockquote><p>fun for me and most ppl involves something of a challenge.  and i'm guessing you're one of those ppl that never does anything w/o a guild group, because even the worst crusaders do in fact struggle for aggro.  i play a zerk and i have some pugs that just wear my aggro out.  you can be a cool guy and say something like 'LOL THEN YOU SUCK LOL' but everyone who knows anything about a zerk knows that the majority of zerk aggro comes from aa and other passive things.  adrenaline rush, experienced insight, aggressive defense, aggressive nature, reversal of fortune, to name most of them.  after that it's all hate given by other ppl.</p></blockquote><p>So you are a zerk that has trouble holding agro, got it.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p><cite>Aemm@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>1. How much of his parse is other people's procs and damage shields/wards?</p><p>2. Yes, Brawlers should do more DPS than plate.</p><p>3. Brawlers can't hold aggro against even the mystic ghost dog when pulling multiple encounters (even with crane twirl and flock active).</p><p>So, while I agree that the Brawler DPS isn't where it should be, and that their AOE hate generating ability is also not good enough, a parse is just a bunch of unqualified numbers signifying nothing.</p></blockquote><p>That is obviously a raid since there are more people than 6 in the list. There should be fully buffed DPS classes in that raid that should blow the tank away. With SK's and sometimes Paladins it does not happen. I was in Cella with a paladin tank and a warlock. I was playing my Troubador and had Upbeat Tempo on the Warlock. The Paladin beat the T3/T4 equipped Warlock DPS by 2:1 and the warlock was working hard.</p><p>The above parse happens all the time. When you add the fact that a good number of the AoE's that add to the SK's DPS are also Life Taps then you can see just how unbalanced things are.</p>

[Bruener]

<p>Do we really have to list all the reasons why pasted Parses like the OP are junk?  All parses can be manipulated, not to mention that just showing a name with a number tells you nothing about the DPS.  Lets see a screen shot on the damage types for the SK.</p><p>You know I had a parse of 80k in Cella the other day on the first named because I pull every mob on the plat form at once and just AE away.  We were in a very AE heavy group.  Looked at the damage types from the encounter and guess what....../GASP....50k DPS was from BANE WARDING alone.  The next highest was PoTM, than was Torrent which any class can get, than PoM, than Fanatical Devotion, so on and so on......</p><p>I wish ACT could just be changed to parse the numbers based on where the damage is actually coming from.  Temp procs buffs are a huge amount of DPS and come from other classes that supposedly don't DPS much.  I guarantee if they showed where the damage was coming from you would see classes like Shamans, Bards, Chanters, Mystics topping the parse.</p><p>Anyhow, give us something good to look at at least.  Give us the break down of damage types.</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They know, EVERY one know SK are the best all around tank bar none. I just wonder what dev plays one that has the pull to keep it that OP for so long. I don't really care they can DPS so high, what I do care about is their survivability isn't that far behind the best def tanks in the game and the CAY DPS that high at the same time. But /shrug what do I know.</p></blockquote><p>SK is the level all tanks should be rather then nerf them they should use them as the bar and buff other classes up to their level.</p></blockquote><p>I disagree.  If my Guard were to all the sudden be able to do all the crap a SK can do at the same time, with ease and with very little sacrifice I would bench him for sure.  Tanks should have to work for aggro....should depend on their healers and group mates to keep them up while they take the DMG for the group and should be down with the healers on the DPS parse when tanking.</p><p>Don't get me wrong I enjoy mentoring down on my Guard and pulling all of ROV or Runneye and living but to be able to do that in "level appropriate" instances is just stupid.</p><p>Everytime I run Research Halls and get to the BIG RED button mob......I can't help but think ..label it TANK STUFF and that is what a SK player keyboard must look like. =P</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Don't get me wrong I enjoy mentoring down on my Guard and pulling all of ROV or Runneye and living but to be able to do that in "level appropriate" instances is just stupid.</p></blockquote><p>My question is why can't you do that as a Guard.  Any fighter class can go pull a ton of mobs in an instance.  How many is dependant on how good of gear they have and even more how good their healer(s) are.  Example, like I mentioned before a Guard can go pull the first encounter in Cella with all the mobs and with a good bane warding shaman have a parse that blows away every other person in the group.</p>

[Xill]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Don't get me wrong I enjoy mentoring down on my Guard and pulling all of ROV or Runneye and living but to be able to do that in "level appropriate" instances is just stupid.</p></blockquote><p>My question is why can't you do that as a Guard.  Any fighter class can go pull a ton of mobs in an instance.  How many is dependant on how good of gear they have and even more how good their healer(s) are.  Example, like I mentioned before a Guard can go pull the first encounter in Cella with all the mobs and with a good bane warding shaman have a parse that blows away every other person in the group.</p></blockquote><p>Remove the shaman, put in a warden. Then take the same 2 tanks in the same spot. The SK would BLOW THE GUARDIAN AWAY. No question. Oh and he would live just as well as the guard would. And keep significantly better aggro.</p>

[Kota]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>SK is the level all tanks should be</p></blockquote><p>You should have to do work to hold aggro, not just face roll. Give shadowknights the survivability of a ranger and they would only be slightly OP.</p></blockquote><p>This game should be fun not work, and even the worst of tanks don't really have to struggle much for agro.</p></blockquote><p>fun for me and most ppl involves something of a challenge.  and i'm guessing you're one of those ppl that never does anything w/o a guild group, because even the worst crusaders do in fact struggle for aggro.  i play a zerk and i have some pugs that just wear my aggro out.  you can be a cool guy and say something like 'LOL THEN YOU SUCK LOL' but everyone who knows anything about a zerk knows that the majority of zerk aggro comes from aa and other passive things.  adrenaline rush, experienced insight, aggressive defense, aggressive nature, reversal of fortune, to name most of them.  after that it's all hate given by other ppl.</p></blockquote><p>So you are a zerk that has trouble holding agro, got it.</p></blockquote><p>so you have a 'cool guy' comment for everything, got it.</p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>Xill wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Don't get me wrong I enjoy mentoring down on my Guard and pulling all of ROV or Runneye and living but to be able to do that in "level appropriate" instances is just stupid.</p></blockquote><p>My question is why can't you do that as a Guard.  Any fighter class can go pull a ton of mobs in an instance.  How many is dependant on how good of gear they have and even more how good their healer(s) are.  Example, like I mentioned before a Guard can go pull the first encounter in Cella with all the mobs and with a good bane warding shaman have a parse that blows away every other person in the group.</p></blockquote><p>Remove the shaman, put in a warden. Then take the same 2 tanks in the same spot. The SK would BLOW THE GUARDIAN AWAY. No question. Oh and he would live just as well as the guard would. And keep significantly better aggro.</p></blockquote><p>True story!</p><p>The SK would actually survive allot more easily then the guard do to all the taps that would be going off.</p>

[Darkonx]

<p>Post the breakdown. I guarantee you harmtouch was huge on both of those parses. 5 min reuse ability on a 30s fight. It's like a wizard hitting fusion/ice comet/manaburn on a 20s fight and saying 'OMG GUYZ, I DID 130k DPS!'. I also promise you that he is spec'd trample, and both of those are multi-mob encounters. He was also tanking, and probably had DBW+other DS's. Cesium is also an extremely good SK, one of the best on your server. This parse is not the 'norm' even for top end SK's. Post something real instead of a 30s parse, and another 2 min fight with 5 mobs where he once again had everything up.</p><p>BTW, our Warlock/Conj do 80k+ on the mobs at the zone in, but once again, not mobs you can really say 'omg they're op!' because they can do 140k dps for the first ~10 seconds, and then drop down to about ~65-70k. Actual mobs + breakdowns before you cry nerf.</p><p>Secondarily, SK lifetaps are good against solo mobs and if timed perfectly with 8 mobs around you, one of our abilitys DOES act like a complete heal, other than that, they don't do more than 5% of my incoming heals in a raid situation.</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Don't get me wrong I enjoy mentoring down on my Guard and pulling all of ROV or Runneye and living but to be able to do that in "level appropriate" instances is just stupid.</p></blockquote><p>My question is why can't you do that as a Guard. Any fighter class can go pull a ton of mobs in an instance. How many is dependant on how good of gear they have and even more how good their healer(s) are. Example, like I mentioned before a Guard can go pull the first encounter in Cella with all the mobs and with a good bane warding shaman have a parse that blows away every other person in the group.</p></blockquote><p>If all i cared about was stupid DPS parse....sure I can do that as a Guard.......if i wanted to see how fast the others in my group ... DPS and healers die.</p><p>In such a situation a SK would: </p><p>1) Live longer</p><p>2) Kill faster</p><p>3) do 1 and 2 because his group would actually still be alive due to the easy-mode aggro on all those mobs and his lifetaps actually become significant.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Don't get me wrong I enjoy mentoring down on my Guard and pulling all of ROV or Runneye and living but to be able to do that in "level appropriate" instances is just stupid.</p></blockquote><p>My question is why can't you do that as a Guard. Any fighter class can go pull a ton of mobs in an instance. How many is dependant on how good of gear they have and even more how good their healer(s) are. Example, like I mentioned before a Guard can go pull the first encounter in Cella with all the mobs and with a good bane warding shaman have a parse that blows away every other person in the group.</p></blockquote><p>If all i cared about was stupid DPS parse....sure I can do that as a Guard.......if i wanted to see how fast the others in my group ... DPS and healers die.</p><p>In such a situation a SK would: </p><p>1) Live longer</p><p>2) Kill faster</p><p>3) do 1 and 2 because his group would actually still be alive due to the easy-mode aggro on all those mobs and his lifetaps actually become significant.</p></blockquote><p>You act like those 2 parses of anything even relevant.  A buffed Sorceror could probably tank them in the right situation.  Its ridiculous posting crap like that and calling for nerfs.  People are still full of SK envy from TSO and can't get over it.  I mean I can go scan the Paladin parses and see 50k+ parses from named encounters.  Zerkers in an AE situation are HUGE parsers.  And finally most of you probably haven't seen the big numbers Guards can put up in situations.</p><p>This entire post is about those 2 parses and it is stupid.  Like I said lets see a break down of those parses by damage type.  Suprise suprise....it is mostly stuff every class in the game can get buffed with.  Focus buffs on one person in the raid ftw.</p><p>Somebody needs to write a program like ACT that gives credit to the class that actually does the damage.  Shamans topping parses.  Would luv to see those Shamans topping parses.</p>

[Kota]

battle frenzy isn't OP

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>...I mean I can go scan the Paladin parses and see 50k+ parses from named encounters. ...And finally most of you probably haven't seen the big numbers Guards can put up in situations....<p>...Like I said lets see a break down of those parses by damage type.  Suprise suprise....it is mostly stuff every class in the game can get buffed with....</p><p>...Somebody needs to write a program like ACT that gives credit to the class that actually does the damage...</p></blockquote><p>Until someone comes along and posts a guardian parsing 52 thousand dps or hitting a mob for 80 thousand damage you are just blowing smoke out your as. Saying "paladins can do it too" just means nerf paladins. Highest I've seen from a guard is 45k dps on the eq2flames guardian dps thread, and dude was duel wielding... bye bye block... Ignoring personal dps for a second, don't even try to compare crusader vs guard heal parses, or take into account how much a shadowknight is boosting a group's damage compared to a guard. But of course guards do have a <em><span style="font-size: x-small;">tiny</span></em> survivability advantage which <em>might occasionally</em> make a difference in <em>certain</em> situations, saving the group/raid an extra pull or two... so I guess all is well and good in Brownie's world.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p>Are you guys seriously QQ'ing that an AE tank does better on an AE encounter?  Quit calling for nerfs of other classes and learn to play your classes better.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p>Funny of you to say since you are pretty much a joke.</p><p><a href="http://www.EQ2Flames.com/rate-r3t4rd/49848-blanka-exceptional-self-ownage.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.EQ2Flames.com/rate-r3t4r...elf-ownage.html</a></p><p>Link doesn't work because of the word r3t4rd SOE filters cuz it's such a horrible word, but to summarize the link: you are full of sht.</p><p>Nerf crusaders btw.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p>Sad, you can't make your class work so you come cry about other classes when you already play one of the most OP classes in the game.  Sad thing is my guilds guardian parses just as high as this SK something you will probably never be able to do due to your obvious mental limitations.</p>

[Kota]

i would certainly like to hear from this guardian. i can't fathom a guardian doing dps on an sk level and would love some insight. i've never seen a guardian dps on this level in any application. 'dps' spec'd while dw in any manner of group or raid. this is the first time i've ever even heard of such a thing.

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>my guilds guardian parses just as high</p></blockquote><p>Prove it or shut your face. Noone cares what you "claim" cuz your word means nothing. No doubt your guild's guardian is duelwielding in ostance with dps gear on and the survivability of a swashbuckler to parse 50k+. And lol if you think doing dps takes some sort of skill or mental capacity. All it takes is gear and buffs and a trained chimp poking the keyboard.</p><p>I wish I had a 50 page thread of the community telling me how much I suck. You must be proud.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sad, you can't make your class work so you come cry about other classes when you already play one of the most OP classes in the game.  Sad thing is my guilds guardian parses just as high as this SK something you will probably never be able to do due to your obvious mental limitations.</p></blockquote><p>Sad isn't it?</p><p>For those of you that can't seem to understand exactly why, let me lay it out for you.  On that 50k parse I would not be suprised at all if 30k DPS was from Deadly Bane Warding alone.  Its simple really.  You pull a whole bunch of mobs and them beating on you with a good Shaman around inflates a parse by huge amounts.  Next you have other player procs like Chilling Vengeance and Fanatical Devotion will be way up at the top as well.  Oh yeah along with Torrent which for those of you that can't do a little research and learn about these things, it is an AE encounter proc that does a lot of dps.  Notice these top DPS items are all things along with simple auto attack, that every fighter would have access to in this game.  My bets is if he was really going for DPS he was using the 2h from the x2 zone which is extremely hard hitting.  Yes he has AE auto attack, but correct me if I am wrong, but is there a fighter class out there right now that can't spec or temp buff some good AE auto attack?  Along with AoI from an illu.</p><p>Add on top of that that he was probably a good player, buffed to the gills by everybody, and seriously you find a reason to complain about it?  I've seen our Guard parse extremely close numbers to me.  I have seen our Bruiser throw out some very high parses.  You can toss a coin for seeing who will DPS more the Paladin or the SK depending on who has the better group set up.  Haven't played with a monk or a zerker in a while but from what I hear, or maybe the lack of complaints, things seem pretty good.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>i would certainly like to hear from this guardian. i can't fathom a guardian doing dps on an sk level and would love some insight. i've never seen a guardian dps on this level in any application. 'dps' spec'd while dw in any manner of group or raid. this is the first time i've ever even heard of such a thing.</blockquote><p>I could take my time and find a 50k parse or you can just scroll a few threads down and see some parses I posted with our guard at 38k and just take it at that.  Fact is dps is close with all 3 of our tanks and we constantly swap whos on top throughout a raid.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sad, you can't make your class work so you come cry about other classes when you already play one of the most OP classes in the game.  Sad thing is my guilds guardian parses just as high as this SK something you will probably never be able to do due to your obvious mental limitations.</p></blockquote><p>Sad isn't it?</p><p>For those of you that can't seem to understand exactly why, let me lay it out for you.  On that 50k parse I would not be suprised at all if 30k DPS was from Deadly Bane Warding alone.  Its simple really.  You pull a whole bunch of mobs and them beating on you with a good Shaman around inflates a parse by huge amounts.  Next you have other player procs like Chilling Vengeance and Fanatical Devotion will be way up at the top as well.  Oh yeah along with Torrent which for those of you that can't do a little research and learn about these things, it is an AE encounter proc that does a lot of dps.  Notice these top DPS items are all things along with simple auto attack, that every fighter would have access to in this game.  My bets is if he was really going for DPS he was using the 2h from the x2 zone which is extremely hard hitting.  Yes he has AE auto attack, but correct me if I am wrong, but is there a fighter class out there right now that can't spec or temp buff some good AE auto attack?  Along with AoI from an illu.</p><p>Add on top of that that he was probably a good player, buffed to the gills by everybody, and seriously you find a reason to complain about it?  I've seen our Guard parse extremely close numbers to me.  I have seen our Bruiser throw out some very high parses.  You can toss a coin for seeing who will DPS more the Paladin or the SK depending on who has the better group set up.  Haven't played with a monk or a zerker in a while but from what I hear, or maybe the lack of complaints, things seem pretty good.</p></blockquote><p>Ive seen an SK throw up 70k parses on ae fights while not even tanking so TBH the whole deadly bane warding thing is just an excuse, but it doesn't matter because your point should be every other tank class parse like that too.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sad, you can't make your class work so you come cry about other classes when you already play one of the most OP classes in the game.  Sad thing is my guilds guardian parses just as high as this SK something you will probably never be able to do due to your obvious mental limitations.</p></blockquote><p>Sad isn't it?</p><p>For those of you that can't seem to understand exactly why, let me lay it out for you.  On that 50k parse I would not be suprised at all if 30k DPS was from Deadly Bane Warding alone.  Its simple really.  You pull a whole bunch of mobs and them beating on you with a good Shaman around inflates a parse by huge amounts.  Next you have other player procs like Chilling Vengeance and Fanatical Devotion will be way up at the top as well.  Oh yeah along with Torrent which for those of you that can't do a little research and learn about these things, it is an AE encounter proc that does a lot of dps.  Notice these top DPS items are all things along with simple auto attack, that every fighter would have access to in this game.  My bets is if he was really going for DPS he was using the 2h from the x2 zone which is extremely hard hitting.  Yes he has AE auto attack, but correct me if I am wrong, but is there a fighter class out there right now that can't spec or temp buff some good AE auto attack?  Along with AoI from an illu.</p><p>Add on top of that that he was probably a good player, buffed to the gills by everybody, and seriously you find a reason to complain about it?  I've seen our Guard parse extremely close numbers to me.  I have seen our Bruiser throw out some very high parses.  You can toss a coin for seeing who will DPS more the Paladin or the SK depending on who has the better group set up.  Haven't played with a monk or a zerker in a while but from what I hear, or maybe the lack of complaints, things seem pretty good.</p></blockquote><p>Ive seen an SK throw up 70k parses on ae fights while not even tanking so TBH the whole deadly bane warding thing is just an excuse, but it doesn't matter because your point should be every other tank class parse like that too.</p></blockquote><p>Yes that is my point.  Every other GOOD player tank class can do that.  Spec'ed and buffed properly.  Mash the buttons when they come up is all <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />~~</p>

[arksun]

<p><cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>i would certainly like to hear from this guardian. i can't fathom a guardian doing dps on an sk level and would love some insight. i've never seen a guardian dps on this level in any application. 'dps' spec'd while dw in any manner of group or raid. this is the first time i've ever even heard of such a thing.</blockquote><p>Hi, with inquiz buff, shaman bane warding, dirge concerto, hand of death, etc.... a guardian can parse like an SK. I do it alot during our normal raids just go look at the parse thread on flames for Guardians. Think my highest so far on a X4 raid encounter was 45k.</p>

[arksun]

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>my guilds guardian parses just as high</p></blockquote><p>Prove it or shut your face. Noone cares what you "claim" cuz your word means nothing. No doubt your guild's guardian is duelwielding in ostance with dps gear on and the survivability of a swashbuckler to parse 50k+. And lol if you think doing dps takes some sort of skill or mental capacity. All it takes is gear and buffs and a trained chimp poking the keyboard.</p><p>I wish I had a 50 page thread of the community telling me how much I suck. You must be proud.</p></blockquote><p>I still hold almost 60% avoidance and mit DW in Ostance, and like the previous reply I made if you want to see "his" guilds guardians parses go to flames and look at the random parse thread on guardians.</p><p>*edit* Here is a link.</p><p><img src="http://www.djdig.com/EQ2/Tuluun_6.jpg" /></p>

[Kota]

very nice. ty for the reply.

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I still hold almost 60% <em>contested</em> avoidance and mit DW in Ostance, and like the previous reply I made if you want to see "his" guilds guardians parses go to flames and look at the random parse thread on guardians.</blockquote><p>Fixed it for you, and yes I've seen the guardian parse thread and referred to it in an earlier post. Too bad crusaders are doing thousands more dps than you with 25% block. You say you have almost 60% contested avoidance and mit as if it's somehow comparable to a crusader with 75-80% avoidance behind a tower shield and 67%+ mit. Gratz on having less survivability and still getting shut down in hate and dps.</p><p>The only thing guards have going is they can get more defensive than any class in the game. But you won't be putting out impressive numbers or making it that much easier for the priests than a crusader would. Hell, you could probably replace guardians with monks and kill the same stuff if you are willing to take at worst another week of pulls.</p>

[arksun]

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I still hold almost 60% <em>contested</em> avoidance and mit DW in Ostance, and like the previous reply I made if you want to see "his" guilds guardians parses go to flames and look at the random parse thread on guardians.</blockquote><p>Fixed it for you, and yes I've seen the guardian parse thread and referred to it in an earlier post. Too bad crusaders are doing thousands more dps than you with 25% block. You say you have almost 60% contested avoidance and mit as if it's somehow comparable to a crusader with 75-80% avoidance behind a tower shield and 67%+ mit. Gratz on having less survivability and still getting shut down in hate and dps.</p><p>The only thing guards have going is they can get more defensive than any class in the game. But you won't be putting out impressive numbers or making it that much easier for the priests than a crusader would. Hell, you could probably replace guardians with monks and kill the same stuff if you are willing to take at worst another week of pulls.</p></blockquote><p>[Removed for Content] are you talking about someone said "X" guardian didn't do "X", and I posted proof that it did happen, I'm not the one crying about nerfing crusaders in this thread.... get your facts straight and people might actually take you seriously.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>[Removed for Content] are you talking about someone said "X" guardian didn't do "X", and I posted proof that it did happen, I'm not the one crying about nerfing crusaders in this thread.... get your facts straight and people might actually take you seriously.</p></blockquote><p>OMG you don't have a shield when you parse the same QQ SK's are OP because they can't DW.</p><p>Again its not like SK's aren't the best most balanced tanks because its tough to say they aren't, the point is don't cry for nerfs of a class that has a slight advantage instead buff the other class to that level.  SK's aren't broken they are about as perfect of a class that this game has produced we need more of that and less of the other.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>[Removed for Content] are you talking about someone said "X" guardian didn't do "X", and I posted proof that it did happen.</p></blockquote><p>No you didn't, you posted some parse in a fully offensive setup and were still several thousand dps behind the parse in the OP. Get your facts straight and you might actually not look like a [Removed for Content]. You obviously didn't read the thread and just popped in at Bcheezy's request to put in your 2 squirts, and just ended up prooving you can't parse as high as a shadowknight with a shield while you're fully offensive and duel wielding. Like I said before, <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=475894#5293762" target="_blank">I mentioned the parse you posted long before you popped in here like bguzzle's hero.</a> Thanks for trying but you still fail.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>OMG you don't have a shield when you parse the same QQ SK's are OP because they can't DW.<p><em>I tried a few times to understand [Removed for Content] this sentence means, but then I realized you just type crap and don't even know what you are saying. There's so much wrong in that one little sentence I don't see how you can pack so much fail into each and every instant of your life every day.</em></p><p>Again its not like SK's aren't the best most balanced tanks because its tough to say they aren't, the point is don't cry for nerfs of a class that has a slight advantage instead buff the other class to that level.  SK's aren't broken they are about as perfect of a class that this game has produced we need more of that and less of the other.</p><p><em>Wrong little grasshopper. I understand you are a fan of easy-mode threat lock and soloing a grip of heroic mobs and like to pleasure yourself while you character in a video game does many damages per second, and wish you could do it on your bruiser or monk or [Removed for Content] you play... but it would be stupid to make the game any easier than it already is. God forbid you actually have to do stuff to hold aggro and get out-parsed by a ranger.</em></p></blockquote>

[Lethe5683]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They know, EVERY one know SK are the best all around tank bar none. I just wonder what dev plays one that has the pull to keep it that OP for so long. I don't really care they can DPS so high, what I do care about is their survivability isn't that far behind the best def tanks in the game and the CAY DPS that high at the same time. But /shrug what do I know.</p></blockquote><p>SK is the level all tanks should be rather then nerf them they should use them as the bar and buff other classes up to their level.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">No, SKS are extreamly OP and need to be nerfed heavily.  Deleting the reaver ability would be the most practical solution.</span></p>

[arksun]

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>[Removed for Content] are you talking about someone said "X" guardian didn't do "X", and I posted proof that it did happen.</p></blockquote><p>No you didn't, you posted some parse in a fully offensive setup and were still several thousand dps behind the parse in the OP. Get your facts straight and you might actually not look like a [Removed for Content]. You obviously didn't read the thread and just popped in at Bcheezy's request to put in your 2 squirts, and just ended up prooving you can't parse as high as a shadowknight with a shield while you're fully offensive and duel wielding. Like I said before, <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=475894#5293762" target="_blank">I mentioned the parse you posted long before you popped in here like bguzzle's hero.</a> Thanks for trying but you still fail.</p></blockquote><p>You do realize that parse comparison from mob to mob will always yield a different outcome, in comparison to our guild SK on the same fight I posted my parse of I was ahead of him on dps. So yes I "CAN" out dps an SK. I am not in a fully offensive gear setup, if I was my parse would be much higher than that (for example do you see the proc from gozak helm on my parse?) no because again you are blindly making statements because you said "X" can't happen, and I proved you wrong.</p><p>The other huge flaw in your arguement is going to be buffs also, of course our guild rogue in the MT group is going to be buffed and taken care of as far as temps, but If I had the same optimal dps group where I could go fully offensive then yes the numbers would be greater than 45k on that same exact mob, maybe we can get some SK parses from the same mob and compare.... or you can rant, kick and scream your point home, im sure the dev's take all of that seriously.</p><p>If you think someone got me to come here and post in this thread then you are delusional I read both forums heavily and heaven forbid I read the fighter boards on the official boards considering I have played a fighter since launch... /gasp.</p><p>I know it sucks when someone proves you wrong, but take it on the chin and move on. Use fact to argue your point, and try laying off the heavy emo.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>* removed for space, scroll up =P *</blockquote><p>Hey man, your argument makes sense but you came in here talking about your parse only. "<span>[Removed for Content] are you talking about someone said "X" guardian didn't do "X", and I posted proof that it did happen." You can think what you want of me, but the fact is you did not post proof that a guard can parse as high as Cesium. As far as outparsing a shadowknight, yes obviously it could happen, and does happen... but all things being equal, hell all things being remotely similar, it doesn't happen. And shouldn't. If you want to ignore everything I said about what you sacrifice to even come in the ballpark of 52k and just talk about the numbers you posted, then your theoretical dps if you had this or if you would have done that doesn't fly. You did not post fact, you just got close enough in your mind, and filled in the rest with theory.</span></p><p>Anyway, almost noone would agree that shadowknights are well balanced, and most of the people that do are either crusaders, or close to the end of the gear curve rolling with other classes at the end of the gear curve and getting buffs from them. I see groups almost daily asking specifically for a shadowknight for all kinds of things, from power-leveling alts, to BG groups, to x2 zones. That's just one example of people realizing how beast shadowknights are. I've never seen in the last 2 expansions someone asking specifically for either warrior at all (except in guild recruitments). "The hole needs a guardian" yea right...</p>

[arksun]

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>* removed for space, scroll up =P *</blockquote><p>Hey man, your argument makes sense but you came in here talking about your parse only. "<span>[Removed for Content] are you talking about someone said "X" guardian didn't do "X", and I posted proof that it did happen." You can think what you want of me, but the fact is you did not post proof that a guard can parse as high as Cesium. As far as outparsing a shadowknight, yes obviously it could happen, and does happen... but all things being equal, hell all things being remotely similar, it doesn't happen. And shouldn't. If you want to ignore everything I said about what you sacrifice to even come in the ballpark of 52k and just talk about the numbers you posted, then your theoretical dps if you had this or if you would have done that doesn't fly. You did not post fact, you just got close enough in your mind, and filled in the rest with theory.</span></p><p>Anyway, almost noone would agree that shadowknights are well balanced, and most of the people that do are either crusaders, or close to the end of the gear curve rolling with other classes at the end of the gear curve and getting buffs from them. I see groups almost daily asking specifically for a shadowknight for all kinds of things, from power-leveling alts, to BG groups, to x2 zones. That's just one example of people realizing how beast shadowknights are. I've never seen in the last 2 expansions someone asking specifically for either warrior at all (except in guild recruitments). "The hole needs a guardian" yea right...</p></blockquote><p>There is no theory though, I can pull parse data from the last month and show side by side comparison of guild sk, monk, guardian and just like it was stated earlier all of them sit around the same area dps wise. Of course on the harder encounters I put on a shield, but on the same encounters an SK / Monk has to take in consideration the same factors and has to adjust properly. Its not like SK's have this 100% survivability in whatever gear they decide to wear, or that the shield is a magic win button. The reason I can DW and Ostance tank is because of the AA's and abilities built into the guardian class. This is honestly my favorite xpac to play the Guardian class, there is no conjuration of random ideas, its proven fact and I can duplicate it week in and week out.</p><p>As before when I stated group make up and priority is always going to make class's parse higher.</p><p>In a natural MT setup it is usually Templar, Defiler, Coercer, Guardian, Rogue, Dirge.</p><p>Now lets break that down, of course the rogue is dps and will get all of the offensive buffs from that group. For a guardian able to parse 45k on a X4 encounter in that setup with a mix of offensive and defensive gear IMO thats above average.</p><p>In an OT group setup where the group can consist of double bards and/or either chanter who is going to recieve the brunt of the buffs? Of course the fighter is,  and considering they do not have to actually tank anything there is no negative effect for them wearing 100% dps gear.</p><p>There is where the numbers in comparison are different, bottom line is you buff any class to dps they will dps. Should an SK be able to parse 50k while wearing a shield? Should a warrior parse 50k DW? In the case of survivability of a Guardian vs an SK in those comparisons, a well played character should be able to out weigh the benefits and negative effects from each one. I know in my case I use defensive stance for maybe a couple of fights... thats not because I have to do that to maintain control of the encounters, its due to the fact of the little damage I am taking and the amount of saves I have to keep myself alive. If I would go fully defensive all the time this would be such a boring expansion, it would just be the natural tank and spank and I would have abilities that would not get refreshed for many encounters.</p>

[Nulgara]

<p>ok my intent isnt to add fuel to the fire but i read thse fighter forums everyday. and i have seen more then jsut a few posts from monks specifically in top end raid guilds and yes Bchizz is one of them and he himself has said that he parses between 18-25k on raids most of the time at 25k+ and he has also said on numerous occasions that he has been the top parsing monk for the last 2 expansions do i believe him .. yes i do. but that being said if he is parsing 25k tops and 4 of the other 6 tanks are parsing 45k+ then tell me again how the original intent of this post isnt correct. brawelrs by nature and design should outparse every other tank period. if he isnt then yes sk's are overpowered in top gear. (i wouldnt know apparently my sk sucks cause he only parses 10k on ae fights and is wearing t2 cause i wont play him cause i can go afk and tank a zone) now on my monk on the other hand i fight tooth and nail for every scrap of dmg he does and if im tanking my dps hits the floor cause im in defensive stance. yeah trash i can tank in offensive but named and such i go def stance cause i'm a tank and thats hwo it should be.</p><p>anyway we have seen the sk parses and a guardian parse what was the monks parse on that same fight you posted your 45k? cause if its down at 25k then yeah you all need to be nerfed.</p><p>unless i completely missed it the point of this thread is that an SK  can literally triple a brawlers parse. wether it was on multi mobs or not doesnt matter cause i can garauntee that the monk had crane flock for 26 of the 30 seconds of that first parse.</p>

[arksun]

<p><cite>Nulgara@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>ok my intent isnt to add fuel to the fire but i read thse fighter forums everyday. and i have seen more then jsut a few posts from monks specifically in top end raid guilds and yes Bchizz is one of them and he himself has said that he parses between 18-25k on raids most of the time at 25k+ and he has also said on numerous occasions that he has been the top parsing monk for the last 2 expansions do i believe him .. yes i do. but that being said if he is parsing 25k tops and 4 of the other 6 tanks are parsing 45k+ then tell me again how the original intent of this post isnt correct. brawelrs by nature and design should outparse every other tank period. if he isnt then yes sk's are overpowered in top gear. (i wouldnt know apparently my sk sucks cause he only parses 10k on ae fights and is wearing t2 cause i wont play him cause i can go afk and tank a zone) now on my monk on the other hand i fight tooth and nail for every scrap of dmg he does and if im tanking my dps hits the floor cause im in defensive stance. yeah trash i can tank in offensive but named and such i go def stance cause i'm a tank and thats hwo it should be.</p><p>anyway we have seen the sk parses and a guardian parse what was the monks parse on that same fight you posted your 45k? cause if its down at 25k then yeah you all need to be nerfed.</p><p>unless i completely missed it the point of this thread is that an SK  can literally triple a brawlers parse. wether it was on multi mobs or not doesnt matter cause i can garauntee that the monk had crane flock for 26 of the 30 seconds of that first parse.</p></blockquote><p>I can look through my logs I have about a month saved up, but as you saw on that one he wasn't in that raid. TBH I don't think I can recall a time that there was any disparity in the fighter parses unless it was one that naturally had to tank a harder encounter in defensive gear and dps naturally goes down. 95% of the time though its always my case, considering there is only a handfull of encounters that require multiple tanks to be fully defensive.</p><p>I would imagine the first 2 orange con named in labs and the first named in toxx is a good judge tool. All 3 of those are basically just a parse fight. 2nd one in toxx is kinda lame for whoever is tanking but easily still able to parse high on that one.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p>So your saying that you, as the MT, with MT buffs and damage shileds and such, in full offensive, can parse just as high as the other fighters in the raid?</p><p>I hope you see the point there. Put the SK in the MT slot, he can tank just as well as you and now gets all the damage shield added to the parse.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p>All that being said, show me the parses from Heroic content. Show me where you, with one healer and buffs going to your dps classes in the Heroic group, out parse the SK? Becasue that is the reality of 95% of the fighters in the game. I'm not going to agree that Guardians and SK's are balanced in raid until I see it myself. There is way to much information out there that just shows that it can't be possible.</p><p>As for your parse I'd like to provide a quote by Mark Twain:</p><p>"There are lies...[Removed for Content] lies.. and then statistics."</p>

[arksun]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So your saying that you, as the MT, with MT buffs and damage shileds and such, in full offensive, can parse just as high as the other fighters in the raid?</p><p>I hope you see the point there. Put the SK in the MT slot, he can tank just as well as you and now gets all the damage shield added to the parse.</p></blockquote><p>Once again failure to comprehend and read statements is what eludes most people that make replies to any thread, including yourself. I said I am not in fully offensive gear and I do not have all the offensive buffs that an SK in a OT group setup would have also having the luxury of not having to actually tank so offensive gear is a 100% viable option for them.</p><p>So you are wrong, In their group setup I would actually do more dps on a larger scale of time. Not the other way around, and your quote by Mark Twain holds no value considering you couldn't even understand what I typed in the previous replies.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p><cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So your saying that you, as the MT, with MT buffs and damage shileds and such, in full offensive, can parse just as high as the other fighters in the raid?</p><p>I hope you see the point there. Put the SK in the MT slot, he can tank just as well as you and now gets all the damage shield added to the parse.</p></blockquote><p>Once again failure to comprehend and read statements is what eludes most people that make replies to any thread, including yourself. I said I am not in fully offensive gear and I do not have all the offensive buffs that an SK in a OT group setup would have also having the luxury of not having to actually tank so offensive gear is a 100% viable option for them.</p><p>So you are wrong, In their group setup I would actually do more dps on a larger scale of time. Not the other way around, and your quote by Mark Twain holds no value considering you couldn't even understand what I typed in the previous replies.</p></blockquote><p>You say that and at the same time post a parse that says 15-20K of your dps is from reactives and damage shileds put on the MT. In that parse you also shows that you ALMOST did as much DPS as the SK.</p><p>So, do you have the dps buffs or not? If you put the SK in the MT role he'd take a much less avoidance hit to go into a more offensive mode (the SK can use their shield), and would still get pumped up 15-20K dps.</p><p>Lies, [Removed for Content] Lies and then Stastistics ..... but eve I can see your MT role DPS is hugely inflated by buffs that only apply to the MT.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So your saying that you, as the MT, with MT buffs and damage shileds and such, in full offensive, can parse just as high as the other fighters in the raid?</p><p>I hope you see the point there. Put the SK in the MT slot, he can tank just as well as you and now gets all the damage shield added to the parse.</p></blockquote><p>Once again failure to comprehend and read statements is what eludes most people that make replies to any thread, including yourself. I said I am not in fully offensive gear and I do not have all the offensive buffs that an SK in a OT group setup would have also having the luxury of not having to actually tank so offensive gear is a 100% viable option for them.</p><p>So you are wrong, In their group setup I would actually do more dps on a larger scale of time. Not the other way around, and your quote by Mark Twain holds no value considering you couldn't even understand what I typed in the previous replies.</p></blockquote><p>I'd like to see these group builds, cause I highly doubt the validity of these statements.  Certainly anyone's dps potential is greatly governed by they group build, and just moving these two fighter classes and leaving the groups the same isn't going to affect them in like ways.</p><p>Can an SK put out more dps while MTing than a guard?  Certainly. </p><p>Does he only have 95% of the survivability of a guard?  Absolutely.</p><p>Does that extra 5% really matter?  Occasionally.</p><p>I'm still not sure what the point of this arguement is.  They both can do the same job, is this an issue?</p>

[Wasuna]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'd like to see these group builds, cause I highly doubt the validity of these statements.  Certainly anyone's dps potential is greatly governed by they group build, and just moving these two fighter classes and leaving the groups the same isn't going to affect them in like ways.</p><p>Can an SK put out more dps while MTing than a guard?  Certainly. </p><p>Does he only have 95% of the survivability of a guard?  Absolutely.</p><p>Does that extra 5% really matter?  Occasionally.</p><p>I'm still not sure what the point of this arguement is.  They both can do the same job, is this an issue?</p></blockquote><p>What has happened is what always happens in these argument. Guardians are tried of being 6th class citizens in terms of tanking in heroic zones and when we come here and complain Breuner jumps in and does the best he can to make a mess of the arguments so it's difficult for perople to keep up with it.</p><p>The point of this agrument is that SK are super duper overpowered in terms of Heroic content which is 95% of this entire game and Guardians are getting really [Removed for Content].</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Nulgara@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>ok my intent isnt to add fuel to the fire but i read thse fighter forums everyday. and i have seen more then jsut a few posts from monks specifically in top end raid guilds and yes Bchizz is one of them and he himself has said that he parses between 18-25k on raids most of the time at 25k+ and he has also said on numerous occasions that he has been the top parsing monk for the last 2 expansions do i believe him .. yes i do. but that being said if he is parsing 25k tops and 4 of the other 6 tanks are parsing 45k+ then tell me again how the original intent of this post isnt correct. brawelrs by nature and design should outparse every other tank period. if he isnt then yes sk's are overpowered in top gear. (i wouldnt know apparently my sk sucks cause he only parses 10k on ae fights and is wearing t2 cause i wont play him cause i can go afk and tank a zone) now on my monk on the other hand i fight tooth and nail for every scrap of dmg he does and if im tanking my dps hits the floor cause im in defensive stance. yeah trash i can tank in offensive but named and such i go def stance cause i'm a tank and thats hwo it should be.</p><p>anyway we have seen the sk parses and a guardian parse what was the monks parse on that same fight you posted your 45k? cause if its down at 25k then yeah you all need to be nerfed.</p><p>unless i completely missed it the point of this thread is that an SK  can literally triple a brawlers parse. wether it was on multi mobs or not doesnt matter cause i can garauntee that the monk had crane flock for 26 of the 30 seconds of that first parse.</p></blockquote><p>At the end of the zone I am usually on top of the fighter parse by a few thousand, not sure where you got this 18-25k number when the only two parses I have posted this expansion were a 39k one and a 70k one.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What has happened is what always happens in these argument. Guardians are tried of being 6th class citizens in terms of tanking in heroic zones and when we come here and complain Breuner jumps in and does the best he can to make a mess of the arguments so it's difficult for perople to keep up with it.</p><p>The point of this agrument is that SK are super duper overpowered in terms of Heroic content which is 95% of this entire game and Guardians are getting really [Removed for Content].</p></blockquote><p>If instead of arguing you pay attention and maybe listen to the guardians who make themselves useful perhaps you will learn how to be something more then a 6th class citizen.  Its always funny seeing the crys of nerf sk when guards that actually play their class to its ability don't have the same problems you do.</p>

[arksun]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So your saying that you, as the MT, with MT buffs and damage shileds and such, in full offensive, can parse just as high as the other fighters in the raid?</p><p>I hope you see the point there. Put the SK in the MT slot, he can tank just as well as you and now gets all the damage shield added to the parse.</p></blockquote><p>Once again failure to comprehend and read statements is what eludes most people that make replies to any thread, including yourself. I said I am not in fully offensive gear and I do not have all the offensive buffs that an SK in a OT group setup would have also having the luxury of not having to actually tank so offensive gear is a 100% viable option for them.</p><p>So you are wrong, In their group setup I would actually do more dps on a larger scale of time. Not the other way around, and your quote by Mark Twain holds no value considering you couldn't even understand what I typed in the previous replies.</p></blockquote><p>You say that and at the same time post a parse that says 15-20K of your dps is from reactives and damage shileds put on the MT. In that parse you also shows that you ALMOST did as much DPS as the SK.</p><p>So, do you have the dps buffs or not? If you put the SK in the MT role he'd take a much less avoidance hit to go into a more offensive mode (the SK can use their shield), and would still get pumped up 15-20K dps.</p><p>Lies, [Removed for Content] Lies and then Stastistics ..... but eve I can see your MT role DPS is hugely inflated by buffs that only apply to the MT.</p></blockquote><p>Chilling Vengenance and Bane warding, which both of these can be triggered in another group easily. That leaves torrent, concerto, stampede, etc... ALL of which can be obtained in other groups or from gear, but when it comes to single target buffing I do not recieve what the rogue would recive in the MT group, but in an OT group situation they recieve the same treatment without negative effects of tanking.</p><p>How hard is it to understand what I am typing..... I am "NOT" in full offensive gear, I am "NOT" buffed for full offensive tanking from group buffs, single target buffs, etc..</p><p>Do you really think I would waste my time posting any of this If I thought it to be false? I play this game to raid only, and to raid at the top tier, if it was not for that I would play another game. Stop trying to defend your ego and read what has been said.</p>

[arksun]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So your saying that you, as the MT, with MT buffs and damage shileds and such, in full offensive, can parse just as high as the other fighters in the raid?</p><p>I hope you see the point there. Put the SK in the MT slot, he can tank just as well as you and now gets all the damage shield added to the parse.</p></blockquote><p>Once again failure to comprehend and read statements is what eludes most people that make replies to any thread, including yourself. I said I am not in fully offensive gear and I do not have all the offensive buffs that an SK in a OT group setup would have also having the luxury of not having to actually tank so offensive gear is a 100% viable option for them.</p><p>So you are wrong, In their group setup I would actually do more dps on a larger scale of time. Not the other way around, and your quote by Mark Twain holds no value considering you couldn't even understand what I typed in the previous replies.</p></blockquote><p>I'd like to see these group builds, cause I highly doubt the validity of these statements.  Certainly anyone's dps potential is greatly governed by they group build, and just moving these two fighter classes and leaving the groups the same isn't going to affect them in like ways.</p><p>Can an SK put out more dps while MTing than a guard?  Certainly. </p><p>Does he only have 95% of the survivability of a guard?  Absolutely.</p><p>Does that extra 5% really matter?  Occasionally.</p><p>I'm still not sure what the point of this arguement is.  They both can do the same job, is this an issue?</p></blockquote><p>Again... so you are telling me if you but an SK in a group with dirge, troub, coercer, mystic, templar. Or troub, illy, dirge, inquiz, mystic, etc... and give them NO detriment of taking INC damage from a mob and move them into the MT group and they are forced into a tanking position, that it would not make any difference at all vs. doing the same for a guardian?</p><p>If people actually believe that an SK can do the Guardians job and 50%+ double their dps parse why is it that a Guardian is still the staple tank in most traditional guilds, excluding the fact that some guilds have just had their share of bad luck of horrible players, of course you will find rarities where someone can excell at their class given "X" circumstances and perform on what they think is the same level as a Guardian but what do they have to compare it to?</p><p>The players you surround yourself with and play with and their skill level makes a difference. I love hearing the comment just smash buttons a monkey could do it, or anything of that nature. Because TBH in this state of the game it is probably the worst for actual player skill since launch and its sad considering most people think a monkey can play "X" class.</p>

[Kota]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So your saying that you, as the MT, with MT buffs and damage shileds and such, in full offensive, can parse just as high as the other fighters in the raid?</p><p>I hope you see the point there. Put the SK in the MT slot, he can tank just as well as you and now gets all the damage shield added to the parse.</p></blockquote><p>Once again failure to comprehend and read statements is what eludes most people that make replies to any thread, including yourself. I said I am not in fully offensive gear and I do not have all the offensive buffs that an SK in a OT group setup would have also having the luxury of not having to actually tank so offensive gear is a 100% viable option for them.</p><p>So you are wrong, In their group setup I would actually do more dps on a larger scale of time. Not the other way around, and your quote by Mark Twain holds no value considering you couldn't even understand what I typed in the previous replies.</p></blockquote><p>You say that and at the same time post a parse that says 15-20K of your dps is from reactives and damage shileds put on the MT. In that parse you also shows that you ALMOST did as much DPS as the SK.</p><p>So, do you have the dps buffs or not? If you put the SK in the MT role he'd take a much less avoidance hit to go into a more offensive mode (the SK can use their shield), and would still get pumped up 15-20K dps.</p><p>Lies, [Removed for Content] Lies and then Stastistics ..... but eve I can see your MT role DPS is hugely inflated by buffs that only apply to the MT.</p></blockquote><p>i'm with this.  your ability to do 45k dps seems contingent upon damage shields.  i would like to see a parse of you, the guard, in the OT group with the SK in MT group.  would be most informative.</p>

[Darkonx]

<p>Tanking, we pull the mob back, so our pull was a bit longer than theirs. Obviously didn't have DBW etc. I did have mostly offensive gear though. I did 29k dps. I can get you a breakdown if you really truly want one.</p>

[arksun]

<p><cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So your saying that you, as the MT, with MT buffs and damage shileds and such, in full offensive, can parse just as high as the other fighters in the raid?</p><p>I hope you see the point there. Put the SK in the MT slot, he can tank just as well as you and now gets all the damage shield added to the parse.</p></blockquote><p>Once again failure to comprehend and read statements is what eludes most people that make replies to any thread, including yourself. I said I am not in fully offensive gear and I do not have all the offensive buffs that an SK in a OT group setup would have also having the luxury of not having to actually tank so offensive gear is a 100% viable option for them.</p><p>So you are wrong, In their group setup I would actually do more dps on a larger scale of time. Not the other way around, and your quote by Mark Twain holds no value considering you couldn't even understand what I typed in the previous replies.</p></blockquote><p>You say that and at the same time post a parse that says 15-20K of your dps is from reactives and damage shileds put on the MT. In that parse you also shows that you ALMOST did as much DPS as the SK.</p><p>So, do you have the dps buffs or not? If you put the SK in the MT role he'd take a much less avoidance hit to go into a more offensive mode (the SK can use their shield), and would still get pumped up 15-20K dps.</p><p>Lies, [Removed for Content] Lies and then Stastistics ..... but eve I can see your MT role DPS is hugely inflated by buffs that only apply to the MT.</p></blockquote><p>i'm with this.  your ability to do 45k dps seems contingent upon damage shields.  i would like to see a parse of you, the guard, in the OT group with the SK in MT group.  would be most informative.</p></blockquote><p>But you do understand minus the damage shield other buffs and 100% offensive gear will yield different outcome than damage shields with defensive/offensive gear right? It seems to me like almost everyone is not understanding that. Yes bane warding does a lot of dps due to the damage shield, but being spoon fed buffs, and not tanking in 100% offensive gear will also yield higher dps. It seems to be the underlying fact that no one wants to grasp.</p><p>When I get off of work I will dig through my history, our defiler likes to dps now and bane warding cuts into his dps equipment so im pretty sure I have some 30k+ parses from labs (don't quote me on the zone) but ill try to post some non bane warding parses, granted this is still from the MT group where the rogue is fully buffed and im using mix gear.</p><p>Also look at a breakdown parse of the same mob comparison class vs. class. I never said my dps did not come from damage shields, of course I know this, but just like I stated so many times in so many post, no one is taking into consideration group make up, buffing, and gear selection. I could easily swap in 5 to 6 pieces that would up my dps but lower my survivability, where I am at now is a perfect medium I find for myself.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So your saying that you, as the MT, with MT buffs and damage shileds and such, in full offensive, can parse just as high as the other fighters in the raid?</p><p>I hope you see the point there. Put the SK in the MT slot, he can tank just as well as you and now gets all the damage shield added to the parse.</p></blockquote><p>Once again failure to comprehend and read statements is what eludes most people that make replies to any thread, including yourself. I said I am not in fully offensive gear and I do not have all the offensive buffs that an SK in a OT group setup would have also having the luxury of not having to actually tank so offensive gear is a 100% viable option for them.</p><p>So you are wrong, In their group setup I would actually do more dps on a larger scale of time. Not the other way around, and your quote by Mark Twain holds no value considering you couldn't even understand what I typed in the previous replies.</p></blockquote><p>You say that and at the same time post a parse that says 15-20K of your dps is from reactives and damage shileds put on the MT. In that parse you also shows that you ALMOST did as much DPS as the SK.</p><p>So, do you have the dps buffs or not? If you put the SK in the MT role he'd take a much less avoidance hit to go into a more offensive mode (the SK can use their shield), and would still get pumped up 15-20K dps.</p><p>Lies, [Removed for Content] Lies and then Stastistics ..... but eve I can see your MT role DPS is hugely inflated by buffs that only apply to the MT.</p></blockquote><p>i'm with this.  your ability to do 45k dps seems contingent upon damage shields.  i would like to see a parse of you, the guard, in the OT group with the SK in MT group.  would be most informative.</p></blockquote><p>But you do understand minus the damage shield other buffs and 100% offensive gear will yield different outcome than damage shields with defensive/offensive gear right? It seems to me like almost everyone is not understanding that. Yes bane warding does a lot of dps due to the damage shield, but being spoon fed buffs, and not tanking in 100% offensive gear will also yield higher dps. It seems to be the underlying fact that no one wants to grasp.</p><p>When I get off of work I will dig through my history, our defiler likes to dps now and bane warding cuts into his dps equipment so im pretty sure I have some 30k+ parses from labs (don't quote me on the zone) but ill try to post some non bane warding parses, granted this is still from the MT group where the rogue is fully buffed and im using mix gear.</p><p>Also look at a breakdown parse of the same mob comparison class vs. class. I never said my dps did not come from damage shields, of course I know this, but just like I stated so many times in so many post, no one is taking into consideration group make up, buffing, and gear selection. I could easily swap in 5 to 6 pieces that would up my dps but lower my survivability, where I am at now is a perfect medium I find for myself.</p></blockquote><p>They also like to ignore how much bane warding and other things made up for Cesium's parse to begin with.</p>

[Kota]

looking forward to it.

[Kota]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They also like to ignore how much bane warding and other things made up for Cesium's parse to begin with.</p></blockquote><p>not ignoring anything.  trying to learn something new.  what i already know, is that down here, where the rubber meets the road for most of us, we don't log in to a golden guild hall with diamond cherubims playing the power rangers theme song on electric guitars.  when most of us log in and say 'LFG' in /gu, the ultimate group does not descend from mt olympus firing lightning bolts from every orifice.  most of us spend a fair amount of time in pugland.  in pugland, crusaders do in fact have a significant advantage.  been away from raiding for over 2 years and i'm just trying to get edumicated.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They also like to ignore how much bane warding and other things made up for Cesium's parse to begin with.</p></blockquote><p>not ignoring anything.  trying to learn something new.  what i already know, is that down here, where the rubber meets the road for most of us, we don't log in to a golden guild hall with diamond cherubims playing the power rangers theme song on electric guitars.  when most of us log in and say 'LFG' in /gu, the ultimate group does not descend from mt olympus firing lightning bolts from every orifice.  most of us spend a fair amount of time in pugland.  in pugland, crusaders do in fact have a significant advantage.  been away from raiding for over 2 years and i'm just trying to get edumicated.</p></blockquote><p>I think if you actually drop your blatently bias preconcieved notions about what most raiders do you would discover that alot of us actually PUG more then anything when doing heroics because for the most part when you spend 2-3 hours a night on raids most people in the raid guild don't want to do group content so if you do you end up in a PUG anyways.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p>Basically, you are saying everything is fine and dandy when you and the 23 other people you play with every day have the best gear realistically available and the right mix of classes to buff each other. And you think playing EQ2 takes skill. Gotchya.</p><p>Ya know... it's not hard to play EQ2. By the time you reach end-game you pretty much know how to play unless you just aren't very good at video games in general. The only things that have changed since I was a level 80 guardian in RoK legendary with 12k HP to now are gear, AAs, who I'm grouped with, and which cure potion I click. The skill factor is extremely low in MMOs compared to almost every other genre of games. Anyway... this is off-topic so I'll shut up.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Anyway... this is off-topic so I'll shut up.</p></blockquote><p>Best post you have made so far....</p><p>See, anybody can do that thing where you delete most of somebodies post to make things "funny"...</p>

[arksun]

<p><cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>looking forward to it.</blockquote><p>Here is a non bane ward parse, only outside buff is from inquiz.</p><p><img src="http://www.djdig.com/EQ2/comparison/vernox_nonbane.jpg" width="1683" height="1002" /></p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Best post so far....<p>do that thing where you make things "funny"...</p></blockquote><p>Maybe later brownie... maybe later.</p>

[Aull]

<p>Here's my 2 cents. The reason there are so many sk's these days would be because sk's work for any tanking situation. Veteran players of other tank classes noticed this in tso and capitalized on this by either rolling an sk or leveling up their sk alts. New players that grouped with these sk's seen what the sk class is capable of and rolled an sk for their tank of choice.</p><p>I am more than certain that many brawlers and warriors that love to tank leaned toward rolling an sk for the reason that sk's outperform all other tanks across the board. Sk aa's complement everything about how the sk works. Unlike many other tanks that have meh medicore aa selections.</p><p>There is really no need for a new player that wants to play a tank class (other than role playing) to roll anything but an sk. They do not have as many restrictions to how they work...just don't move when casting spells. No real need in positioning mobs to maximize aoe's like a zerker has to do. With aa's and lvls can get up to seven 360 degree hit radius aoe's and 40% aoe auto attack.</p><p>If anything the other fighters need to be brought up to the sk cause I don't see sk's ever being nerfed. They currently cannot be touched in versitility.</p>

[Darkonx]

<p>SK's are AE DPS tanks. Single target, they aren't the best DPS. Neither ST nor AE are they the most survivable.  On AE fights though, yes, we do the best DPS of the fighter classes. That being said, all tanks can do everything, so I don't see a real issue..</p>

[Aull]

<p>Not trying to argue here but yeah all tanks can do everything is not correct. Many players who play a guardian, monk, zerker, or bruiser that have an sk will usually opt for the sk because sk's are better all around. The only reason they would continue to lvl the other tanks is for the hope that things will change and for the bonus xp for the other alts.</p><p>Sk's are the bomb. Great class no matter how you slice it. </p>

[Nulgara]

<p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>SK's are AE DPS tanks. Single target, they aren't the best DPS. <strong>Neither ST nor AE are they the most survivable</strong>.  On AE fights though, yes, we do the best DPS of the fighter classes. That being said, all tanks can do everything, so I don't see a real issue..</p></blockquote><p>The bolded part .. lol you need to explain that one to me.</p><p>one of my alts is an sk, i dont even like to play him these days cause it is straight up easy mode. i can literally go afk after i hit auto attack and cavaliers shout alone will hold agro off pretty much anyone. survivability. umm dont make me laugh. lets see i have hmm 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 skills that in design alone will keep me alive for a very very long time. combine those 5 skills with my taps and self reactive tappy ward thingy and guess what it takes a long long time ot kill me. and guess what im in t2 with garbage gear and no mythical. i have 1/4 the avoidance of my guardian friend and 14% less mit and he will die long before i do. so tell me again how crusaders arent the most survivable tank class. i agree with your dps analysis.</p><p>and lastly jsut because all 6 tanks can do everything doesnt mean its balanced. on my monk i have to fight and scrape and gouge eyeballs for every bit of survivability, hate, and dps he does. on my sk i hit two buttons and watch a movie and no one ever dies or rips agro.</p><p>HUGE DIFFERENCE.</p>

[Kota]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They also like to ignore how much bane warding and other things made up for Cesium's parse to begin with.</p></blockquote><p>not ignoring anything.  trying to learn something new.  what i already know, is that down here, where the rubber meets the road for most of us, we don't log in to a golden guild hall with diamond cherubims playing the power rangers theme song on electric guitars.  when most of us log in and say 'LFG' in /gu, the ultimate group does not descend from mt olympus firing lightning bolts from every orifice.  most of us spend a fair amount of time in pugland.  in pugland, crusaders do in fact have a significant advantage.  been away from raiding for over 2 years and i'm just trying to get edumicated.</p></blockquote><p>I think if you actually drop your blatently bias preconcieved notions about what most raiders do you would discover that alot of us actually PUG more then anything when doing heroics because for the most part when you spend 2-3 hours a night on raids most people in the raid guild don't want to do group content so if you do you end up in a PUG anyways.</p></blockquote><p>biased ?  naw not biased.  digg, for example is doing more auto atk damage than my entire parse in most situations.  most of us don't have the raids to make that possible.  that's just a fact.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Nulgara@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>SK's are AE DPS tanks. Single target, they aren't the best DPS. <strong>Neither ST nor AE are they the most survivable</strong>.  On AE fights though, yes, we do the best DPS of the fighter classes. That being said, all tanks can do everything, so I don't see a real issue..</p></blockquote><p>The bolded part .. lol you need to explain that one to me.</p><p>one of my alts is an sk, i dont even like to play him these days cause it is straight up easy mode. i can literally go afk after i hit auto attack and cavaliers shout alone will hold agro off pretty much anyone. survivability. umm dont make me laugh. lets see i have hmm 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 skills that in design alone will keep me alive for a very very long time. combine those 5 skills with my taps and self reactive tappy ward thingy and guess what it takes a long long time ot kill me. and guess what im in t2 with garbage gear and no mythical. i have 1/4 the avoidance of my guardian friend and 14% less mit and he will die long before i do. so tell me again how crusaders arent the most survivable tank class. i agree with your dps analysis.</p><p>and lastly jsut because all 6 tanks can do everything doesnt mean its balanced. on my monk i have to fight and scrape and gouge eyeballs for every bit of survivability, hate, and dps he does. on my sk i hit two buttons and watch a movie and no one ever dies or rips agro.</p><p>HUGE DIFFERENCE.</p></blockquote><p>What is this, CLASS EDUCATION 101?</p><p>Its simple really.  Paladins take less damage in AE and ST situations than SKs.  Zerkers take less damage in both situations with Adrenaline.  Guards take a ton less damage in ST situations, and probably don't end up taking more damage overall until fighting more than 3 mobs.</p><p>And people seem to finally be waking up about Brawlers.  Our Bruiser can itemize to have just as much +mit as I have now AND he has a ton more avoidance.</p><p>Overall I am luving the diversity in fighters right now and the fact that each of them can really add to their raid/group.</p>

[Kota]

<p><cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>looking forward to it.</blockquote><p>Here is a non bane ward parse, only outside buff is from inquiz.</p></blockquote><p>thanks for the reply.  what sort of numbers is your guild's sk putting up in tank and offtank positions on similar/same mobs ?</p>

[Kaberu]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What is this, CLASS EDUCATION 101?</p><p>Its simple really.  Paladins take less damage in AE and ST situations than SKs.  Zerkers take less damage in both situations with Adrenaline.  Guards take a ton less damage in ST situations, and probably don't end up taking more damage overall until fighting more than 3 mobs.</p><p>And people seem to finally be waking up about Brawlers.  Our Bruiser can itemize to have just as much +mit as I have now AND he has a ton more avoidance.</p><p>Overall I am luving the diversity in fighters right now and the fact that each of them can really add to their raid/group.</p></blockquote><p>To be fair, a Berserker using Adrenaline also means that in less than a minute, the Berserker will have close to no power left if they've been using any other abilities at all (ultimately, it will use up over 40% of your power, or keep you from regenerating power for 30 seconds if you are near 0 power to begin with). It can be countered with regens of course, or by building gear for power reclamation (but doing so sacrifices points towards defense/offense).</p><p>It also only gives 50% reduction while berserk (which is usually the majority of the time, but depending on the situation, might not be all the time), and is not maintainable (due to longer recast time than usefulness time). It's also not something that can be used at any time as we also need to have power to cast it initially (not including the 40%+ drain when it expires).</p><p>Even with Adrenaline, Berserkers still die faster than SKs if left to their own devices. Basically, with adrenaline up, a Berserker is taking 1k of damage from Heroic A but has little chance of recovering that (33% reactive chance to recover 300 to 400 when taking a hit). Meanwhile, the SK is taking 2k from Heroic A, but can regain health with almost every attack he makes. Usually you can hit more frequently than the mob hits you which squarely puts the advantage on the SK for recovery.</p><p>Battle Frenzy helps a little, but it's not even close in the long run.</p><p>And then there's the noted issue that to keep pace with an SK's sword/board damage, Berserkers usually have to go dual wield, which makes them lose the some of the reduced damage that you say we have an advantage with (when really, it's the shield avoidance that helps more than adrenaline). Of course, this is what Adrenaline helps with... we can go Dual wield to keep aggro (which is nearly a requirement for berserkers keeping aggro), but then we have to rest for a while afterwards... unless we have enough power buffs from a group/raid.</p><p>Strangely, this uber-itemizing feature of the Bruiser apparently hasn't helped them win many tanking rolls... I wonder why that is?</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Kaberu wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Strangely, this uber-itemizing feature of the Bruiser apparently hasn't helped them win many tanking rolls... I wonder why that is?</p></blockquote><p>People are slow to change.</p>

[Kota]

<p><cite>Kaberu wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Strangely, this uber-itemizing feature of the Bruiser apparently hasn't helped them win many tanking rolls... I wonder why that is?</p></blockquote><p>stigma.  starting to see some sick mit/avoidance numbers on brawlers.  may be time to dust off my old 80 monk.</p>

[Kinless]

<p>I had this same discussion on another site. Yes brawlers can in fact get within a few % if not equal mit than plate tanks and a ton more avoidance.</p><p> Wait for it though and someone will come along and tell you that somehow the mit is different between brawlers and plate tanks. /sigh</p><p>Its ok though, I know exactly what my monk can do, I really wish there were more in the brawler community pushing the class and showing its value. At any rate I will keep my easy to find groups and raid slots to myself.</p>

[Kaberu]

<p>Brawlers still have problems with maintaining aggro I would assume? I don't actually know as I haven't used my bruiser in a while!</p>

[Nulgara]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Nulgara@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>SK's are AE DPS tanks. Single target, they aren't the best DPS. <strong>Neither ST nor AE are they the most survivable</strong>.  On AE fights though, yes, we do the best DPS of the fighter classes. That being said, all tanks can do everything, so I don't see a real issue..</p></blockquote><p>The bolded part .. lol you need to explain that one to me.</p><p>one of my alts is an sk, i dont even like to play him these days cause it is straight up easy mode. i can literally go afk after i hit auto attack and cavaliers shout alone will hold agro off pretty much anyone. survivability. umm dont make me laugh. lets see i have hmm 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 skills that in design alone will keep me alive for a very very long time. combine those 5 skills with my taps and self reactive tappy ward thingy and guess what it takes a long long time ot kill me. and guess what im in t2 with garbage gear and no mythical. i have 1/4 the avoidance of my guardian friend and 14% less mit and he will die long before i do. so tell me again how crusaders arent the most survivable tank class. i agree with your dps analysis.</p><p>and lastly jsut because all 6 tanks can do everything doesnt mean its balanced. on my monk i have to fight and scrape and gouge eyeballs for every bit of survivability, hate, and dps he does. on my sk i hit two buttons and watch a movie and no one ever dies or rips agro.</p><p>HUGE DIFFERENCE.</p></blockquote><p>What is this, CLASS EDUCATION 101?</p><p>Its simple really.  Paladins take less damage in AE and ST situations than SKs.  Zerkers take less damage in both situations with Adrenaline.  Guards take a ton less damage in ST situations, and probably don't end up taking more damage overall until fighting more than 3 mobs.</p><p>And people seem to finally be waking up about Brawlers.  Our Bruiser can itemize to have just as much +mit as I have now AND he has a ton more avoidance.</p><p>Overall I am luving the diversity in fighters right now and the fact that each of them can really add to their raid/group.</p></blockquote><p>and you fail at understanding the post.</p><p>its simple really. regardless of who takes more dmg the FACT remains that the crusader tanks will be standing longer then all the others when the crap is hitting the fan. they have more and better tools to deal with it, especially in an ae fight. does my sk get hit harder and more often yes he does but guess what through taps and procs on gear i heal the dmg difference between what he takes and my guardian friend takes dmg wise. and my survival tools arent limited to a number of hits absorbed. my stuff lasts for a duration which pwns any skill that takes a specific number of hits like last man standing. the name of that one makes me laugh cause its quite untrue.</p><p>now dont get me wrong do guards do the job and do it well. yes they do. are they truely the most survivable.. NO they are not. shoudl they be .. YES..</p><p>anyway the meaning of my post was about balanced effectiveness. right now crusaders have the best of both worlds. best dmg and best overall survivability. you can argue it with me all day but when a t2 geared sk without a myth can tank dead on par with a t4 geared guardian theres a frikin balance issue.</p><p>liek i said before jsut because all 6 tanks can do it, still doesnt mean its balanced. SK's ARE EASY MODE anyone that trys to deny that is lieing. its takes far more effort for the other tanks to get ot that level whether that be through farming gear or stacking the crap out of specific mods and HAVING to pick very very specific aa's is a balance issue. when a class can spec straight up dps and grab 1 or 2 survivability aa's and tank jsut as well as a full out defense specced tank of another class thats an issue.</p><p>is that enough comparison for you or do you need more to understand?</p>

[drakkenshie]

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>SK is the level all tanks should be</p></blockquote><p>You should have to do work to hold aggro, not just face roll. Give shadowknights the survivability of a ranger and they would only be slightly OP.</p></blockquote><p>This game should be fun not work, and even the worst of tanks don't really have to struggle much for agro.</p></blockquote><p>This game is so easy after 15-20 minutes of tanking I'm ready to be done for a few days. I guess if you find no challenge at all fun, then that's your thing. You probably like tic-tac-toe too where the worst outcome is you tie...</p></blockquote><p>If it's that easy for you, the problem you aren't hitting anything difficult.</p><p>If you run with a group, especially in a RAID, a wizard can tank and a Templar can hit for 5K with all the buffs.  The original post in the thread was useless precisely because of that.  The MT always parses high, and most of his damage comes from buffs on him, not his own ability.</p><p>The same is true even when I run a duo: my damage is up because of the help I'm getting, and unfortunately geek toys like ACT can't show that.</p><p>I personally do find groups boring if they are overpowered, but it's the group itself not the individual classes, and most of the time it is because so many high levels are mentoring.</p><p>There is plenty of difficult content if you'll go looking for it, and if you are really that bored, run a duo, especially the ones that people tell you will never work: dual fury, dual SK, or dual necros... all of which a friend and I were told never work, but we do fine... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[drakkenshie]

<p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Don't get me wrong I enjoy mentoring down on my Guard and pulling all of ROV or Runneye and living but to be able to do that in "level appropriate" instances is just stupid.</p></blockquote><p>My question is why can't you do that as a Guard. Any fighter class can go pull a ton of mobs in an instance. How many is dependant on how good of gear they have and even more how good their healer(s) are. Example, like I mentioned before a Guard can go pull the first encounter in Cella with all the mobs and with a good bane warding shaman have a parse that blows away every other person in the group.</p></blockquote><p>If all i cared about was stupid DPS parse....sure I can do that as a Guard.......if i wanted to see how fast the others in my group ... DPS and healers die.</p><p>In such a situation a SK would: </p><p>1) Live longer</p><p>2) Kill faster</p><p>3) do 1 and 2 because his group would actually still be alive due to the easy-mode aggro on all those mobs and his lifetaps actually become significant.</p></blockquote><p>It's also possible that the SK player simply did a better job setting up his AAs.</p><p>I've seen Guardians blow SKs away, so from my POV ** NERF THE OVERPOWERED GUARDIANS **</p><p>Honestly, each player and setup varies so much, and NONE of you  has done even a fraction of the work necessary to do a true comparison.</p>

[drakkenshie]

<p><cite>Nulgara@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>ok my intent isnt to add fuel to the fire but i read thse fighter forums everyday. and i have seen more then jsut a few posts from monks specifically in top end raid guilds and yes Bchizz is one of them and he himself has said that he parses between 18-25k on raids most of the time at 25k+ and he has also said on numerous occasions that he has been the top parsing monk for the last 2 expansions do i believe him .. yes i do. but that being said if he is parsing 25k tops and 4 of the other 6 tanks are parsing 45k+ then tell me again how the original intent of this post isnt correct. brawelrs by nature and design should outparse every other tank period.</p></blockquote><p>You are still, like many others, missing a critical point.</p><p>The tanks are being heavily buffed, the monk is not.  That's they the tank parses higher.  Most of their damage is not their own DPS, but the help they get from utility support.</p><p>I have an SK and unless I'm the MT and getting utility support, the monk or assassin in my group parses higher than I do.</p><p>One final comment: nerfing is a lazy shorcut that developers do instead of proper game design which is the correct solution for anything feeling overpowered.</p><p>I've played games where the developers make sure all classes are perfectly balanced, and IT SUCKS BADLY.  Few things ruin a game as much as nerfing does unless the situation is extreme, and SKs are certainly not extreme.</p><p>*EVERY* class in the game gets more powerful with each passing quarter because they are nerfing content instead of, once again, doing better game design.</p><p>It's the same crap that makes them take shortcuts like populating a zone with 11 mobs when you need 12 kills, and other things like that.</p><p>I much rather the developers focus on bug fixes and better design for quests and content than constantly screwing with classes.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>drakkenshield wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Nulgara@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>ok my intent isnt to add fuel to the fire but i read thse fighter forums everyday. and i have seen more then jsut a few posts from monks specifically in top end raid guilds and yes Bchizz is one of them and he himself has said that he parses between 18-25k on raids most of the time at 25k+ and he has also said on numerous occasions that he has been the top parsing monk for the last 2 expansions do i believe him .. yes i do. but that being said if he is parsing 25k tops and 4 of the other 6 tanks are parsing 45k+ then tell me again how the original intent of this post isnt correct. brawelrs by nature and design should outparse every other tank period.</p></blockquote><p>You are still, like many others, missing a critical point.</p><p>The tanks are being heavily buffed, the monk is not.  That's they the tank parses higher.  Most of their damage is not their own DPS, but the help they get from utility support.</p><p>I have an SK and unless I'm the MT and getting utility support, the monk or assassin in my group parses higher than I do.</p><p>One final comment: nerfing is a lazy shorcut that developers do instead of proper game design which is the correct solution for anything feeling overpowered.</p><p>I've played games where the developers make sure all classes are perfectly balanced, and IT SUCKS BADLY.  Few things ruin a game as much as nerfing does unless the situation is extreme, and SKs are certainly not extreme.</p><p>*EVERY* class in the game gets more powerful with each passing quarter because they are nerfing content instead of, once again, doing better game design.</p><p>It's the same crap that makes them take shortcuts like populating a zone with 11 mobs when you need 12 kills, and other things like that.</p><p>I much rather the developers focus on bug fixes and better design for quests and content than constantly screwing with classes.</p></blockquote><p>Monks/Bruisers don't get the same benefit to things like damage shields/banewards when we tank because we end up avoiding a significant amount more and don't proc them.  Its actually a big mechanics issue that still hasn't been properly addressed.  The same mechanic makes HoT's and Reactives less effective on us as well.  So even if I am in the MT group I would hardly see the DPS advantages a plate tank does.  This mechanic also favors the guardian in a huge way because actualy getting hit but having the best damage absorbtion is always the most effective way to tank content.  I know what you are thinking avoidance is always king but really it isn't as this game is really about managing spike damage and guardians despite what others may claim are the absolute best at that. </p><p>As far as parsing goes you should know that in our guild I am usually in the OT group of mystic, templar, coercer, dirge, monk, random scout and our sk gets a double bard group with an illy, mages and inq so we are all really buffed decently.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p>Digg,</p><p>Thanks for reposting a parse without a few buffs. To bad the new parse shows you poping a DPS God ability (Anashti Sul), a bard using a ~long recast group damage buff and you getting hit by a mob while having an inquisitor damage shield/reactive heal that anybody in another group in a raid would not see damage from.</p><p>Why don't we call your best normal DPS when in a non-MT group and not getting hit around ~25K. How does that compare to your SK's DPS in DPS mode not getting hit in a raid? If I remmember correctly, in full blown every buff under the sun MT role while dpsing you ALMOST did as much DPS as the SK in the raid. Am I remmembering correctly?</p><p>I'm not even going to mention that you had an enchanter, a Dirge, inquisitor DPS buffs.. those are things that are possible in a raid for a DPS SK in a DPS group so it's a non-comment.</p>

[Darkonx]

<p><cite>Nulgara@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Nulgara@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>SK's are AE DPS tanks. Single target, they aren't the best DPS. <strong>Neither ST nor AE are they the most survivable</strong>.  On AE fights though, yes, we do the best DPS of the fighter classes. That being said, all tanks can do everything, so I don't see a real issue..</p></blockquote><p>The bolded part .. lol you need to explain that one to me.</p><p>one of my alts is an sk, i dont even like to play him these days cause it is straight up easy mode. i can literally go afk after i hit auto attack and cavaliers shout alone will hold agro off pretty much anyone. survivability. umm dont make me laugh. lets see i have hmm 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 skills that in design alone will keep me alive for a very very long time. combine those 5 skills with my taps and self reactive tappy ward thingy and guess what it takes a long long time ot kill me. and guess what im in t2 with garbage gear and no mythical. i have 1/4 the avoidance of my guardian friend and 14% less mit and he will die long before i do. so tell me again how crusaders arent the most survivable tank class. i agree with your dps analysis.</p><p>and lastly jsut because all 6 tanks can do everything doesnt mean its balanced. on my monk i have to fight and scrape and gouge eyeballs for every bit of survivability, hate, and dps he does. on my sk i hit two buttons and watch a movie and no one ever dies or rips agro.</p><p>HUGE DIFFERENCE.</p></blockquote><p>What is this, CLASS EDUCATION 101?</p><p>Its simple really.  Paladins take less damage in AE and ST situations than SKs.  Zerkers take less damage in both situations with Adrenaline.  Guards take a ton less damage in ST situations, and probably don't end up taking more damage overall until fighting more than 3 mobs.</p><p>And people seem to finally be waking up about Brawlers.  Our Bruiser can itemize to have just as much +mit as I have now AND he has a ton more avoidance.</p><p>Overall I am luving the diversity in fighters right now and the fact that each of them can really add to their raid/group.</p></blockquote><p>and you fail at understanding the post.</p><p>its simple really. regardless of who takes more dmg the FACT remains that the crusader tanks will be standing longer then all the others when the crap is hitting the fan. they have more and better tools to deal with it, especially in an ae fight. does my sk get hit harder and more often yes he does but guess what through taps and procs on gear i heal the dmg difference between what he takes and my guardian friend takes dmg wise. and my survival tools arent limited to a number of hits absorbed. my stuff lasts for a duration which pwns any skill that takes a specific number of hits like last man standing. the name of that one makes me laugh cause its quite untrue.</p><p>now dont get me wrong do guards do the job and do it well. yes they do. are they truely the most survivable.. NO they are not. shoudl they be .. YES..</p><p>anyway the meaning of my post was about balanced effectiveness. right now crusaders have the best of both worlds. best dmg and best overall survivability. you can argue it with me all day but when a t2 geared sk without a myth can tank dead on par with a t4 geared guardian theres a frikin balance issue.</p><p>liek i said before jsut because all 6 tanks can do it, still doesnt mean its balanced. SK's ARE EASY MODE anyone that trys to deny that is lieing. its takes far more effort for the other tanks to get ot that level whether that be through farming gear or stacking the crap out of specific mods and HAVING to pick <span style="font-size: small;"><strong>very very specific aa's</strong> </span>is a balance issue. when a class can spec straight up dps and grab 1 or 2 survivability aa's and tank jsut as well as a full out defense specced tank of another class thats an issue.</p><p>is that enough comparison for you or do you need more to understand?</p></blockquote><p>SK lifetaps are minimal in terms of actual incoming heals in a raid situation. MINIMAL. Very minimal. Microscopic even. The same in groups.</p><p>If we are talking about soloing, sure, SK's are great for soloing. Heroic content, no tank should really ever have to worry about dieing.</p><p>Also, as to the bolded part of your statement - Are you telling me that you would rather spec some things that don't really help your class, as opposed to picking the things that do? I know all throughout TSO there were TWO viable aa spec's for a crusader. One involved divine aura, the other involved trample. There isn't really variance between 'spec's' as you put it. Either 5 points in ability A is better, or 5 points in ability B is better. Now, in SF, there is a little bit more variance, in terms of raid tanking vs heroic farming vs undergeared heroic tanking, but still, there are only in reality three specs.</p><p>Guardians can do amazing DPS. Those original parses were from very short fights, where the SK was ALSO stacked with everything that the guardian had in his parses. If you look, the guard did 45k with the buffs, so did the SK. I'm not seeing a difference. You take away all the outside buffs including DS's, and both are doing 25-28k. If we are talking soloing, then yes, SK's are one of the best, without much contest other than paladins.</p><p>Above this, there is a post about berserker vs sk survivability. What they never included was the fact that tanking heroics/raids you'll have healer(s) to heal, so the SK's lifetaps are near useless. No healer buffs 50% damage reduction, but they DO put out heals, which negate SK lifetaps. Taps are great for soloing, but really, in heroic content they lose a lot of their power, and in raids, they are nearly useless.</p>

[arksun]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Digg,</p><p>Thanks for reposting a parse without a few buffs. To bad the new parse shows you poping a DPS God ability (Anashti Sul), a bard using a ~long recast group damage buff and you getting hit by a mob while having an inquisitor damage shield/reactive heal that anybody in another group in a raid would not see damage from.</p><p>Why don't we call your best normal DPS when in a non-MT group and not getting hit around ~25K. How does that compare to your SK's DPS in DPS mode not getting hit in a raid? If I remmember correctly, in full blown every buff under the sun MT role while dpsing you ALMOST did as much DPS as the SK in the raid. Am I remmembering correctly?</p><p>I'm not even going to mention that you had an enchanter, a Dirge, inquisitor DPS buffs.. those are things that are possible in a raid for a DPS SK in a DPS group so it's a non-comment.</p></blockquote><p>You do realize SK's use sul ability too right? How are you going to call my best DPS 25k in non MT situation I have said it in probably 5 to 6 post I am "NOT" in full offensive gear, we can clear almost 3/4 of a long zone or even shorts ones with duration of the just one diety buff. If I was in offensive gear in a group with a mystic (stampede) and the dirge just like the one I have casting concerto, and the "actual" group buffs from the inquiz with the luxury of double bards with not tanking there is no way in hell I would just parse 25k, so to even remotely say that is a absurd.</p><p>Not sure why its hard for everyone to understand what I typed probably 20 post ago and digest it for what it is. Why don't we just put a bunch of training dummy parses on here? .... oh I know because someone will say you had "X" buff or "X" item .... its just beating a dead horse.</p><p>Bottom line I can outparse an SK even on the ZW. Can I do it everytime? NO... Am I buff dependent in the MT group with a mix of defensive / offensive gear? YES... Can you say what my dps would be in a pure dps group? NO...</p><p>Unlike most people that just put up the blind parses that are just numbers, ask one of these 40k+ sk's to show their parse break down and prepare the same reply you just had for them.</p>

[Kota]

<p><cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Digg,</p><p>Thanks for reposting a parse without a few buffs. To bad the new parse shows you poping a DPS God ability (Anashti Sul), a bard using a ~long recast group damage buff and you getting hit by a mob while having an inquisitor damage shield/reactive heal that anybody in another group in a raid would not see damage from.</p><p>Why don't we call your best normal DPS when in a non-MT group and not getting hit around ~25K. How does that compare to your SK's DPS in DPS mode not getting hit in a raid? If I remmember correctly, in full blown every buff under the sun MT role while dpsing you ALMOST did as much DPS as the SK in the raid. Am I remmembering correctly?</p><p>I'm not even going to mention that you had an enchanter, a Dirge, inquisitor DPS buffs.. those are things that are possible in a raid for a DPS SK in a DPS group so it's a non-comment.</p></blockquote><p>You do realize SK's use sul ability too right? How are you going to call my best DPS 25k in non MT situation I have said it in probably 5 to 6 post I am "NOT" in full offensive gear, we can clear almost 3/4 of a long zone or even shorts ones with duration of the just one diety buff. If I was in offensive gear in a group with a mystic (stampede) and the dirge just like the one I have casting concerto, and the "actual" group buffs from the inquiz with the luxury of double bards with not tanking there is no way in hell I would just parse 25k, so to even remotely say that is a absurd.</p><p>Not sure why its hard for everyone to understand what I typed probably 20 post ago and digest it for what it is. Why don't we just put a bunch of training dummy parses on here? .... oh I know because someone will say you had "X" buff or "X" item .... its just beating a dead horse.</p><p>Bottom line I can outparse an SK even on the ZW. Can I do it everytime? NO... Am I buff dependent in the MT group with a mix of defensive / offensive gear? YES... Can you say what my dps would be in a pure dps group? NO...</p><p>Unlike most people that just put up the blind parses that are just numbers, ask one of these 40k+ sk's to show their parse break down and prepare the same reply you just had for them.</p></blockquote><p>i guess the real question is: what kind of numbers does your guild's sk put up in the MT group ?  and OT.</p>

[arksun]

<p><cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Digg,</p><p>Thanks for reposting a parse without a few buffs. To bad the new parse shows you poping a DPS God ability (Anashti Sul), a bard using a ~long recast group damage buff and you getting hit by a mob while having an inquisitor damage shield/reactive heal that anybody in another group in a raid would not see damage from.</p><p>Why don't we call your best normal DPS when in a non-MT group and not getting hit around ~25K. How does that compare to your SK's DPS in DPS mode not getting hit in a raid? If I remmember correctly, in full blown every buff under the sun MT role while dpsing you ALMOST did as much DPS as the SK in the raid. Am I remmembering correctly?</p><p>I'm not even going to mention that you had an enchanter, a Dirge, inquisitor DPS buffs.. those are things that are possible in a raid for a DPS SK in a DPS group so it's a non-comment.</p></blockquote><p>You do realize SK's use sul ability too right? How are you going to call my best DPS 25k in non MT situation I have said it in probably 5 to 6 post I am "NOT" in full offensive gear, we can clear almost 3/4 of a long zone or even shorts ones with duration of the just one diety buff. If I was in offensive gear in a group with a mystic (stampede) and the dirge just like the one I have casting concerto, and the "actual" group buffs from the inquiz with the luxury of double bards with not tanking there is no way in hell I would just parse 25k, so to even remotely say that is a absurd.</p><p>Not sure why its hard for everyone to understand what I typed probably 20 post ago and digest it for what it is. Why don't we just put a bunch of training dummy parses on here? .... oh I know because someone will say you had "X" buff or "X" item .... its just beating a dead horse.</p><p>Bottom line I can outparse an SK even on the ZW. Can I do it everytime? NO... Am I buff dependent in the MT group with a mix of defensive / offensive gear? YES... Can you say what my dps would be in a pure dps group? NO...</p><p>Unlike most people that just put up the blind parses that are just numbers, ask one of these 40k+ sk's to show their parse break down and prepare the same reply you just had for them.</p></blockquote><p>i guess the real question is: what kind of numbers does your guild's sk put up in the MT group ?  and OT.</p></blockquote><p>In either OT group or Mage group both SK and Monk but up about the same numbers. Like bchizzle said its usually a rotation but all fighters usually stay around the same numbers. Say the monk is chain pulling though of course zonewide will come down some, or when you split tank mobs you have to account for that. But if you look at just tank and spank trash and named, its always usually in the same area.</p><p>TBH If I pulled the ZW up to say seer in labs it would probably show all 3 fighters in a row for the zonewide. (using last night as example) If I didn't flush my logs I will try to get that set of numbers and post them as example.</p>

[arksun]

<p>Up to seer, everything chain pulled (including first room with first named) there is nothing pulled from that to make it look better thats everything up to and including Seer. Best parse for ZW? ... No, but this will give you an example of how close it is, and considering monk is pulling alot his would be higher.</p><p>Reads Guardian, Monk, SK.</p><p><img src="http://www.djdig.com/EQ2/comparison/parse.jpg" width="907" height="405" /></p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Up to seer, everything chain pulled (including first room with first named) there is nothing pulled from that to make it look better thats everything up to and including Seer. Best parse for ZW? ... No, but this will give you an example of how close it is, and considering monk is pulling alot his would be higher.</p><p>Reads Guardian, Monk, SK.</p><p><img src="http://www.djdig.com/EQ2/comparison/parse.jpg" width="907" height="405" /></p></blockquote><p>I am kind of surprised I actually parse that high with all the running around I do.</p>

[Nulgara]

<p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Nulgara@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Nulgara@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>SK's are AE DPS tanks. Single target, they aren't the best DPS. <strong>Neither ST nor AE are they the most survivable</strong>.  On AE fights though, yes, we do the best DPS of the fighter classes. That being said, all tanks can do everything, so I don't see a real issue..</p></blockquote><p>The bolded part .. lol you need to explain that one to me.</p><p>one of my alts is an sk, i dont even like to play him these days cause it is straight up easy mode. i can literally go afk after i hit auto attack and cavaliers shout alone will hold agro off pretty much anyone. survivability. umm dont make me laugh. lets see i have hmm 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 skills that in design alone will keep me alive for a very very long time. combine those 5 skills with my taps and self reactive tappy ward thingy and guess what it takes a long long time ot kill me. and guess what im in t2 with garbage gear and no mythical. i have 1/4 the avoidance of my guardian friend and 14% less mit and he will die long before i do. so tell me again how crusaders arent the most survivable tank class. i agree with your dps analysis.</p><p>and lastly jsut because all 6 tanks can do everything doesnt mean its balanced. on my monk i have to fight and scrape and gouge eyeballs for every bit of survivability, hate, and dps he does. on my sk i hit two buttons and watch a movie and no one ever dies or rips agro.</p><p>HUGE DIFFERENCE.</p></blockquote><p>What is this, CLASS EDUCATION 101?</p><p>Its simple really.  Paladins take less damage in AE and ST situations than SKs.  Zerkers take less damage in both situations with Adrenaline.  Guards take a ton less damage in ST situations, and probably don't end up taking more damage overall until fighting more than 3 mobs.</p><p>And people seem to finally be waking up about Brawlers.  Our Bruiser can itemize to have just as much +mit as I have now AND he has a ton more avoidance.</p><p>Overall I am luving the diversity in fighters right now and the fact that each of them can really add to their raid/group.</p></blockquote><p>and you fail at understanding the post.</p><p>its simple really. regardless of who takes more dmg the FACT remains that the crusader tanks will be standing longer then all the others when the crap is hitting the fan. they have more and better tools to deal with it, especially in an ae fight. does my sk get hit harder and more often yes he does but guess what through taps and procs on gear i heal the dmg difference between what he takes and my guardian friend takes dmg wise. and my survival tools arent limited to a number of hits absorbed. my stuff lasts for a duration which pwns any skill that takes a specific number of hits like last man standing. the name of that one makes me laugh cause its quite untrue.</p><p>now dont get me wrong do guards do the job and do it well. yes they do. are they truely the most survivable.. NO they are not. shoudl they be .. YES..</p><p>anyway the meaning of my post was about balanced effectiveness. right now crusaders have the best of both worlds. best dmg and best overall survivability. you can argue it with me all day but when a t2 geared sk without a myth can tank dead on par with a t4 geared guardian theres a frikin balance issue.</p><p>liek i said before jsut because all 6 tanks can do it, still doesnt mean its balanced. SK's ARE EASY MODE anyone that trys to deny that is lieing. its takes far more effort for the other tanks to get ot that level whether that be through farming gear or stacking the crap out of specific mods and HAVING to pick <span style="font-size: small;"><strong>very very specific aa's</strong> </span>is a balance issue. when a class can spec straight up dps and grab 1 or 2 survivability aa's and tank jsut as well as a full out defense specced tank of another class thats an issue.</p><p>is that enough comparison for you or do you need more to understand?</p></blockquote><p>SK lifetaps are minimal in terms of actual incoming heals in a raid situation. MINIMAL. Very minimal. Microscopic even. The same in groups.</p><p>If we are talking about soloing, sure, SK's are great for soloing. Heroic content, no tank should really ever have to worry about dieing.</p><p>Also, as to the bolded part of your statement - Are you telling me that you would rather spec some things that don't really help your class, as opposed to picking the things that do? I know all throughout TSO there were TWO viable aa spec's for a crusader. One involved divine aura, the other involved trample. There isn't really variance between 'spec's' as you put it. Either 5 points in ability A is better, or 5 points in ability B is better. Now, in SF, there is a little bit more variance, in terms of raid tanking vs heroic farming vs undergeared heroic tanking, but still, there are only in reality three specs.</p><p>Guardians can do amazing DPS. Those original parses were from very short fights, where the SK was ALSO stacked with everything that the guardian had in his parses. If you look, the guard did 45k with the buffs, so did the SK. I'm not seeing a difference. You take away all the outside buffs including DS's, and both are doing 25-28k. If we are talking soloing, then yes, SK's are one of the best, without much contest other than paladins.</p><p>Above this, there is a post about berserker vs sk survivability. What they never included was the fact that tanking heroics/raids you'll have healer(s) to heal, so the SK's lifetaps are near useless. No healer buffs 50% damage reduction, but they DO put out heals, which negate SK lifetaps. Taps are great for soloing, but really, in heroic content they lose a lot of their power, and in raids, they are nearly useless.</p></blockquote><p>well maybe next time i take my sk out to tank high end heroic instance ill post the heal parse to show you that my sk does far more healing then the healers he has with him do.. coudl my healer sit there and heal and negate my taps sure she could. WHY woudl she when my taps will keep me topped off other then the occasional spike which she hits back into the fray and regen and goes back to dps'ing. thats what makes the sk(and pali) easy mode compared ot the other tanks they dont require the same amount of heals form the healer so group dps goes up cause the healer is more easily able to dps harder. can that same healer do that when im on my monk(who btw has the same mit as my sk and far superior avoidance) no she cant her dps goes down by half when im tanking with my monk. as to the part you bolded in my post. that referrence was about my monk. to tank even a little the same as my sk or my friends guard, I had to be EXTRMELY SPECIFIC on his aa. yeah that means dropping re-use in brawler tree and dropping my group buff modifying aa's to get all the block and emergency stay alive crap he coudl get. where as my sk picked up DA and furor and the rest is all dps.</p><p>regardless of whether you get my point or not makes no difference to me the majority of people do see the difference. certainly this thread wasnt about tanking it was about dps. but the point is sk's can do that kind of dps while also being fully able to jump into tank mode without having to change a thing. sure if you wanna talk absolutel top end players im sure bchizzle is capapble of that and maybe a few others. but if all you look at is the top geared player then your results are flawe before you even started you ahve to look at the middle ground to have any sort of accurate comparison. my game play experience on my tanks is that group i dont raid with my monk or my sk (and not because i wouldnt but because im sick to death of my sk's easy button, and my monk well dont get me started but im sick to death of having to prove a monk can do things).</p><p>and please for the love of god stop comparing raid geared tanking of heroic instances to the average joe playing those classes doing the same. there is a massive disparity between the two.</p><p>is it balanced in raid.. sure looks that way by looking at Digg's parses. is it balanced ANYWHERE ELSE .. NO</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Nulgara@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>well maybe next time i take my sk out to tank high end heroic instance ill post the heal parse to show you that my sk does far more healing then the healers he has with him do.. coudl my healer sit there and heal and negate my taps sure she could. WHY woudl she when my taps will keep me topped off other then the occasional spike which she hits back into the fray and regen and goes back to dps'ing. thats what makes the sk(and pali) easy mode compared ot the other tanks they dont require the same amount of heals form the healer so group dps goes up cause the healer is more easily able to dps harder. can that same healer do that when im on my monk(who btw has the same mit as my sk and far superior avoidance) no she cant her dps goes down by half when im tanking with my monk. as to the part you bolded in my post. that referrence was about my monk. to tank even a little the same as my sk or my friends guard, I had to be EXTRMELY SPECIFIC on his aa. yeah that means dropping re-use in brawler tree and dropping my group buff modifying aa's to get all the block and emergency stay alive crap he coudl get. where as my sk picked up DA and furor and the rest is all dps.</p><p>regardless of whether you get my point or not makes no difference to me the majority of people do see the difference. certainly this thread wasnt about tanking it was about dps. but the point is sk's can do that kind of dps while also being fully able to jump into tank mode without having to change a thing. sure if you wanna talk absolutel top end players im sure bchizzle is capapble of that and maybe a few others. but if all you look at is the top geared player then your results are flawe before you even started you ahve to look at the middle ground to have any sort of accurate comparison. my game play experience on my tanks is that group i dont raid with my monk or my sk (and not because i wouldnt but because im sick to death of my sk's easy button, and my monk well dont get me started but im sick to death of having to prove a monk can do things).</p><p>and please for the love of god stop comparing raid geared tanking of heroic instances to the average joe playing those classes doing the same. there is a massive disparity between the two.</p><p>is it balanced in raid.. sure looks that way by looking at Digg's parses. is it balanced ANYWHERE ELSE .. NO</p></blockquote><p>I wouldn't call me top end geared tbh, I have 2 T3 dps items that I wear so far and thats the pants and hat I am mid tier geared for the most part I also am still wearing 4 T8 items in my jewelery  slots.  It doesnt matter though tge divide between top end gear and others is the smallest its ever been.  Your whole top end thing and not the middle is just a rediculous stance anyways as anyone whos in top end gear had to be mid and low tier at some point and is certainly more qualified to offer an opinion then someone who would never experience it.  But hey let's see your heal parse next time you tank a raid zone on your SK my guess is we wont ever see it since I have never heard of your guild so you probably won't be tanking this tiers zones for a couple years.</p>

[Kota]

this has been very informative. thanks for the numbers, digg. a lot of us have only seen sk's owning everything up in pugs and pvp and were unaware of the other tanks' potential in a more optimal situation.

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>this has been very informative. thanks for the numbers, digg. a lot of us have only seen sk's owning everything up in pugs and pvp and were unaware of the other tanks' potential in a more optimal situation.</blockquote><p>Maybe this is the way the OP should have been put out instead of posting garbage and calling for a nerf to a class because of it.</p><p>And than when OTHER fighter classes are posting about how misleading this OP is and actually posting numbers backing it up....maybe, just maybe....those people that don't have a clue what they are talking about should just stop posting and instead start figuring out what they are doing wrong.</p><p>But of course, that would involve not getting all emo because somebody knows how to play the same class much better.</p>

[Nulgara]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Nulgara@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>well maybe next time i take my sk out to tank high end heroic instance ill post the heal parse to show you that my sk does far more healing then the healers he has with him do.. coudl my healer sit there and heal and negate my taps sure she could. WHY woudl she when my taps will keep me topped off other then the occasional spike which she hits back into the fray and regen and goes back to dps'ing. thats what makes the sk(and pali) easy mode compared ot the other tanks they dont require the same amount of heals form the healer so group dps goes up cause the healer is more easily able to dps harder. can that same healer do that when im on my monk(who btw has the same mit as my sk and far superior avoidance) no she cant her dps goes down by half when im tanking with my monk. as to the part you bolded in my post. that referrence was about my monk. to tank even a little the same as my sk or my friends guard, I had to be EXTRMELY SPECIFIC on his aa. yeah that means dropping re-use in brawler tree and dropping my group buff modifying aa's to get all the block and emergency stay alive crap he coudl get. where as my sk picked up DA and furor and the rest is all dps.</p><p>regardless of whether you get my point or not makes no difference to me the majority of people do see the difference. certainly this thread wasnt about tanking it was about dps. but the point is sk's can do that kind of dps while also being fully able to jump into tank mode without having to change a thing. sure if you wanna talk absolutel top end players im sure bchizzle is capapble of that and maybe a few others. but if all you look at is the top geared player then your results are flawe before you even started you ahve to look at the middle ground to have any sort of accurate comparison. my game play experience on my tanks is that group i dont raid with my monk or my sk (and not because i wouldnt but because im sick to death of my sk's easy button, and my monk well dont get me started but im sick to death of having to prove a monk can do things).</p><p>and please for the love of god stop comparing raid geared tanking of heroic instances to the average joe playing those classes doing the same. there is a massive disparity between the two.</p><p>is it balanced in raid.. sure looks that way by looking at Digg's parses. is it balanced ANYWHERE ELSE .. NO</p></blockquote><p>I wouldn't call me top end geared tbh, I have 2 T3 dps items that I wear so far and thats the pants and hat I am mid tier geared for the most part I also am still wearing 4 T8 items in my jewelery  slots.  It doesnt matter though tge divide between top end gear and others is the smallest its ever been.  Your whole top end thing and not the middle is just a rediculous stance anyways as anyone whos in top end gear had to be mid and low tier at some point and is certainly more qualified to offer an opinion then someone who would never experience it.  But hey let's see your heal parse next time you tank a raid zone on your SK my guess is we wont ever see it since I have never heard of your guild so you probably won't be tanking this tiers zones for a couple years.</p></blockquote><p>and your still most likely in the top 3 gear wise of monks worldwide. anyway raid isnt my point. Digg's parses show in raid that its pretty even. and you ARE raid geared so are your other tanks. the point i made is heroic instance tanking.. can both of my tanks tank the heroic instances. yes they can, but thats wasnt teh point either, the point is that my monk in better gear then my sk has a more difficult time doing so. and like you said in an earlier post its all about managing spike damage. my sk has more and better tools to do so which is why its that much easier for him to do so.</p><p>IT really does make me laugh that none of you can see that point. it is NOT balanced in their gear levels.</p><p>and seriosuly dont make me lol on the floor youve been raid geared for 3 expansions so no you dont have a clue what middle ground gear tanking is like in this expansion. are tanks closest to balance as they have ever been. for the most part yeah, but more work needs to be done.</p><p>if you want to see what im talking about go and get a full set of legendary drops from heroic instances and ill even allow 2 fabled pieces from those same instances. then tank cellas with a monk then do it with an sk and tell me it wasnt a joke on the sk and actually difficult with the monk.</p>

[Rotate]

<p>lol i made this post to mess with cesium i see its still going on...  to clear some stuff up..</p><p>yes me the brawler didnt have much buffs in that x2 raid =p..</p><p>the sham did not have bane warding =p.</p><p>most of cesiums damage was his spells and his procs.. now he did double attack spells =p.</p><p>there was no vc on cesium i dont think dirges had it at the time lols.. wasnt on parse anyway. hell i didnt know what the hell vc was until i finaly seen it like two nights ago on raid.. but a few 34k hits from that in a fight really makes a differnce on raid parses =p.</p><p>obviously no mystics so no stampeed.. really tho wtb a mystic! OMG i want that buff atleast once.. /cires.</p><p>he had some decent buffs. i mean. just not stuff you been describing =p.</p>

[Kota]

while it's nice to know there is some balance at end game, that still doesn't help most of us. i used to wonder why soe left sk's so op, but now i'm thinking it's because they don't want to alter the end game balance. unless you raid at the cutting edge, there really isn't a reason to play anything but a crusader. unless you just wanna be different. but yeah, sk's dominate heroic content, and you can throw them into random pugs all day and you won't see much variance in their ability to get it done. and i can't begin to imagine how many sk's are running around nagafen thinking they win fights because they're good or something. with end game looking as balanced as it does, i doubt any of this will change.

[Kota]

<p><cite>Rotate@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>there was no vc on cesium i dont think dirges had it at the time lols.. wasnt on parse anyway. hell i didnt know what the hell vc was until i finaly seen it like two nights ago on raid.. but a few 34k hits from that in a fight really makes a differnce on raid parses =p.</p></blockquote><p>how come my voice chat doesn't do that much damage ?</p>

[Rotate]

<p>lol VC = victorious concerto..  some really nice drige dps thing.. group wide. i had no idea about it untill recently.. our dirges must of just got it this week or soemthing lols..</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Nulgara@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>and your still most likely in the top 3 gear wise of monks worldwide. anyway raid isnt my point. Digg's parses show in raid that its pretty even. and you ARE raid geared so are your other tanks. the point i made is heroic instance tanking.. can both of my tanks tank the heroic instances. yes they can, but thats wasnt teh point either, the point is that my monk in better gear then my sk has a more difficult time doing so. and like you said in an earlier post its all about managing spike damage. my sk has more and better tools to do so which is why its that much easier for him to do so.</p><p>IT really does make me laugh that none of you can see that point. it is NOT balanced in their gear levels.</p><p>and seriosuly dont make me lol on the floor youve been raid geared for 3 expansions so no you dont have a clue what middle ground gear tanking is like in this expansion. are tanks closest to balance as they have ever been. for the most part yeah, but more work needs to be done.</p><p>if you want to see what im talking about go and get a full set of legendary drops from heroic instances and ill even allow 2 fabled pieces from those same instances. then tank cellas with a monk then do it with an sk and tell me it wasnt a joke on the sk and actually difficult with the monk.</p></blockquote><p>The imbalance is really the AE tank vs single target tank imbalance that makes AE tanks superior in heroic zones.  It really isn't applicable to this topic since we are talking raids and you could insert any AE tank and a heroic zone would be easier.  SOE has tighetened the gap a little and hopefully they continue on this path.  Guards should be out parsing SK's on a single target as should monks and the difference should be as big as the difference that SK's get over single targets on multimobs.</p>

[Magnis]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Nulgara@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>and your still most likely in the top 3 gear wise of monks worldwide. anyway raid isnt my point. Digg's parses show in raid that its pretty even. and you ARE raid geared so are your other tanks. the point i made is heroic instance tanking.. can both of my tanks tank the heroic instances. yes they can, but thats wasnt teh point either, the point is that my monk in better gear then my sk has a more difficult time doing so. and like you said in an earlier post its all about managing spike damage. my sk has more and better tools to do so which is why its that much easier for him to do so.</p><p>IT really does make me laugh that none of you can see that point. it is NOT balanced in their gear levels.</p><p>and seriosuly dont make me lol on the floor youve been raid geared for 3 expansions so no you dont have a clue what middle ground gear tanking is like in this expansion. are tanks closest to balance as they have ever been. for the most part yeah, but more work needs to be done.</p><p>if you want to see what im talking about go and get a full set of legendary drops from heroic instances and ill even allow 2 fabled pieces from those same instances. then tank cellas with a monk then do it with an sk and tell me it wasnt a joke on the sk and actually difficult with the monk.</p></blockquote><p>The imbalance is really the AE tank vs single target tank imbalance that makes AE tanks superior in heroic zones.  It really isn't applicable to this topic since we are talking raids and you could insert any AE tank and a heroic zone would be easier.  SOE has tighetened the gap a little and hopefully they continue on this path.  Guards <strong><span style="font-size: medium; color: #ff6600;">should</span></strong> be out parsing SK's on a single target as should monks and the difference should be as big as the difference that SK's get over single targets on multimobs.</p></blockquote><p>Just some clarity.  When you say "should", are you saying this is currently the case in high end raids, or it would be ideal if it was. </p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Magnis@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Nulgara@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>and your still most likely in the top 3 gear wise of monks worldwide. anyway raid isnt my point. Digg's parses show in raid that its pretty even. and you ARE raid geared so are your other tanks. the point i made is heroic instance tanking.. can both of my tanks tank the heroic instances. yes they can, but thats wasnt teh point either, the point is that my monk in better gear then my sk has a more difficult time doing so. and like you said in an earlier post its all about managing spike damage. my sk has more and better tools to do so which is why its that much easier for him to do so.</p><p>IT really does make me laugh that none of you can see that point. it is NOT balanced in their gear levels.</p><p>and seriosuly dont make me lol on the floor youve been raid geared for 3 expansions so no you dont have a clue what middle ground gear tanking is like in this expansion. are tanks closest to balance as they have ever been. for the most part yeah, but more work needs to be done.</p><p>if you want to see what im talking about go and get a full set of legendary drops from heroic instances and ill even allow 2 fabled pieces from those same instances. then tank cellas with a monk then do it with an sk and tell me it wasnt a joke on the sk and actually difficult with the monk.</p></blockquote><p>The imbalance is really the AE tank vs single target tank imbalance that makes AE tanks superior in heroic zones.  It really isn't applicable to this topic since we are talking raids and you could insert any AE tank and a heroic zone would be easier.  SOE has tighetened the gap a little and hopefully they continue on this path.  Guards <strong><span style="font-size: medium; color: #ff6600;">should</span></strong> be out parsing SK's on a single target as should monks and the difference should be as big as the difference that SK's get over single targets on multimobs.</p></blockquote><p>Just some clarity.  When you say "should", are you saying this is currently the case in high end raids, or it would be ideal if it was. </p></blockquote><p>I am saying that the balance is slightly off and that no a guard isn't going to outparse a SK on single target but they SHOULD much like a sk should outparse a guard on an AE fight.  It doesn't mean it isn't close what it means is it shouldn't be close.  People like to make the excuse that guards survive better and should parse less, however, they should parse less on groups not on single targets.</p>

[Darkonx]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Magnis@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Nulgara@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>and your still most likely in the top 3 gear wise of monks worldwide. anyway raid isnt my point. Digg's parses show in raid that its pretty even. and you ARE raid geared so are your other tanks. the point i made is heroic instance tanking.. can both of my tanks tank the heroic instances. yes they can, but thats wasnt teh point either, the point is that my monk in better gear then my sk has a more difficult time doing so. and like you said in an earlier post its all about managing spike damage. my sk has more and better tools to do so which is why its that much easier for him to do so.</p><p>IT really does make me laugh that none of you can see that point. it is NOT balanced in their gear levels.</p><p>and seriosuly dont make me lol on the floor youve been raid geared for 3 expansions so no you dont have a clue what middle ground gear tanking is like in this expansion. are tanks closest to balance as they have ever been. for the most part yeah, but more work needs to be done.</p><p>if you want to see what im talking about go and get a full set of legendary drops from heroic instances and ill even allow 2 fabled pieces from those same instances. then tank cellas with a monk then do it with an sk and tell me it wasnt a joke on the sk and actually difficult with the monk.</p></blockquote><p>The imbalance is really the AE tank vs single target tank imbalance that makes AE tanks superior in heroic zones.  It really isn't applicable to this topic since we are talking raids and you could insert any AE tank and a heroic zone would be easier.  SOE has tighetened the gap a little and hopefully they continue on this path.  Guards <strong><span style="font-size: medium; color: #ff6600;">should</span></strong> be out parsing SK's on a single target as should monks and the difference should be as big as the difference that SK's get over single targets on multimobs.</p></blockquote><p>Just some clarity.  When you say "should", are you saying this is currently the case in high end raids, or it would be ideal if it was. </p></blockquote><p>I am saying that the balance is slightly off and that no a guard isn't going to outparse a SK on single target but they SHOULD much like a sk should outparse a guard on an AE fight.  It doesn't mean it isn't close what it means is it shouldn't be close.  People like to make the excuse that guards survive better and should parse less, however, they should parse less on groups not on single targets.</p></blockquote><p>SK<Guard Survivability</p><p>SK>Guard DPS</p><p>That is how it is right now, even though it's only marginally either way, at the end game.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>SK</p><p>SK>Guard DPS</p><p>That is how it is right now, even though it's only marginally either way, at the end game.</p></blockquote><p>Sk shouldn't even be close on single target.</p>

[Darkonx]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>SK</p><p>SK>Guard DPS</p><p>That is how it is right now, even though it's only marginally either way, at the end game.</p></blockquote><p>Sk shouldn't even be close on single target.</p></blockquote><p>There are two things to balance. Survivability, and DPS. All top end raid mobs are ST. I can't really think of an encounter that stays 'AE' except for 4 rune RT swarm adds. If a Guard has more survivability, AND considerably more ST DPS, then why play anything else?</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>SK</p><p>SK>Guard DPS</p><p>That is how it is right now, even though it's only marginally either way, at the end game.</p></blockquote><p>Sk shouldn't even be close on single target.</p></blockquote><p>There are two things to balance. Survivability, and DPS. All top end raid mobs are ST. I can't really think of an encounter that stays 'AE' except for 4 rune RT swarm adds. If a Guard has more survivability, AND considerably more ST DPS, then why play anything else?</p></blockquote><p>Because you are an AE tank designed to be good in ae encounters not single target.</p>

[Darkonx]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>SK</p><p>SK>Guard DPS</p><p>That is how it is right now, even though it's only marginally either way, at the end game.</p></blockquote><p>Sk shouldn't even be close on single target.</p></blockquote><p>There are two things to balance. Survivability, and DPS. All top end raid mobs are ST. I can't really think of an encounter that stays 'AE' except for 4 rune RT swarm adds. If a Guard has more survivability, AND considerably more ST DPS, then why play anything else?</p></blockquote><p>Because you are an AE tank designed to be good in ae encounters not single target.</p></blockquote><p>There are no AE raids. All raids are ST. Guards just need to have their AE capability increased, IMO.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>SK</p><p>SK>Guard DPS</p><p>That is how it is right now, even though it's only marginally either way, at the end game.</p></blockquote><p>Sk shouldn't even be close on single target.</p></blockquote><p>There are two things to balance. Survivability, and DPS. All top end raid mobs are ST. I can't really think of an encounter that stays 'AE' except for 4 rune RT swarm adds. If a Guard has more survivability, AND considerably more ST DPS, then why play anything else?</p></blockquote><p>Because you are an AE tank designed to be good in ae encounters not single target.</p></blockquote><p>There are no AE raids. All raids are ST. Guards just need to have their AE capability increased, IMO.</p></blockquote><p>But there are plenty of group ae encounters which your class should rightfully be great at.  Its the trade off you play an AE tank and as a result that is what your class should be best at not best at everything.</p>

[Darkonx]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>SK</p><p>SK>Guard DPS</p><p>That is how it is right now, even though it's only marginally either way, at the end game.</p></blockquote><p>Sk shouldn't even be close on single target.</p></blockquote><p>There are two things to balance. Survivability, and DPS. All top end raid mobs are ST. I can't really think of an encounter that stays 'AE' except for 4 rune RT swarm adds. If a Guard has more survivability, AND considerably more ST DPS, then why play anything else?</p></blockquote><p>Because you are an AE tank designed to be good in ae encounters not single target.</p></blockquote><p>There are no AE raids. All raids are ST. Guards just need to have their AE capability increased, IMO.</p></blockquote><p>But there are plenty of group ae encounters which your class should rightfully be great at.  Its the trade off you play an AE tank and as a result that is what your class should be best at not best at everything.</p></blockquote><p>Raid content is all there is end-game. Therefore, classes should be balanced for raids. Group balance should be maintained, as well, of course, for those who do not enjoy raiding. As it is right now, every single tank is a viable heroic tank. This is good.</p><p>I honestly think I'm just being trolled here that you think Guardians should have the highest ST DPS AND highest Survivability.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p>You are both wrong.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>SK</p><p>SK>Guard DPS</p><p>That is how it is right now, even though it's only marginally either way, at the end game.</p></blockquote><p>Sk shouldn't even be close on single target.</p></blockquote><p>There are two things to balance. Survivability, and DPS. All top end raid mobs are ST. I can't really think of an encounter that stays 'AE' except for 4 rune RT swarm adds. If a Guard has more survivability, AND considerably more ST DPS, then why play anything else?</p></blockquote><p>Because you are an AE tank designed to be good in ae encounters not single target.</p></blockquote><p>There are no AE raids. All raids are ST. Guards just need to have their AE capability increased, IMO.</p></blockquote><p>But there are plenty of group ae encounters which your class should rightfully be great at.  Its the trade off you play an AE tank and as a result that is what your class should be best at not best at everything.</p></blockquote><p>Raid content is all there is end-game. Therefore, classes should be balanced for raids. Group balance should be maintained, as well, of course, for those who do not enjoy raiding. As it is right now, every single tank is a viable heroic tank. This is good.</p><p>I honestly think I'm just being trolled here that you think Guardians should have the highest ST DPS AND highest Survivability.</p></blockquote><p>I never said guardians should have the highest ST DPS I just said it should be higher then AE tanks ST DPS.</p>

[juggalo0385]

<p>Whats with all these threads talking about SK's being over powered did you ever think the SK tanking is all masters and has really good gear.  As a pally I like to go after SK's for a duel and most of the time I win....does that mean pallies are over powered no its because I was better geared.  The game is fine the way it is.  people just complain cause an SK is doing better than them. </p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><strong><em><span >"people just complain cause an SK is doing better than them."</span></em></strong></p><p>People just defend crusaders because they play one.</p>

[steelbadger]

<p><cite>juggalo0385 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Whats with all these threads talking about SK's being over powered did you ever think the SK tanking is all masters and has really good gear.  As a pally I like to go after SK's for a duel and most of the time I win....does that mean pallies are over powered no its because I was better geared.  The game is fine the way it is.  people just complain cause an SK is doing better than them. </p></blockquote><p>Oh, now I see.  It's because SKs are pretty much <em>all</em> better geared than Guardians.</p><p>Well that's fine then.  Its obviously because everyone who doesn't play a crusader never bothered to replace their mastercrafted gear.  We can stop this thread now.  This man has found the answer.</p>

[Levatino]

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong><em><span>"people just complain cause an SK is doing better than them."</span></em></strong></p><p>People just defend crusaders because they play one.</p></blockquote><p>I think it's more like people started to play a guardian cause it was the flavor of the month, warriorstyle but then when TSO came saw that the crusader was fixed and got jealous and saw crusaders even replacing them as MT..</p>

[Wasuna]

<p><cite>Levatino wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span> </span></p></blockquote><p>I think it's more like people started to play a guardian cause it was the flavor of the month, warriorstyle but then when TSO came saw that the crusader was fixed and got jealous and saw crusaders even replacing them as MT..</p></blockquote><p>Guardians have always been a low population class. We haven't been a flavor of the month since level 50 before they fixed defense.</p><p>If by fixed you mean everybody else is able to fill the raid MT role and Guardians can't do crap but raid MT then I guess your assumption is correct.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Levatino wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong><em><span>"people just complain cause an SK is doing better than them."</span></em></strong></p><p>People just defend crusaders because they play one.</p></blockquote><p>I think it's more like people started to play a guardian cause it was the flavor of the month, warriorstyle but then when TSO came saw that the crusader was fixed and got jealous and saw crusaders even replacing them as MT..</p></blockquote><p>If people just played guards cuz it was FotM, they would be playing crusaders now.... on the forums, telling everyone tank balance is better than it has ever been.</p>

[Nakash]

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Levatino wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong><em><span>"people just complain cause an SK is doing better than them."</span></em></strong></p><p>People just defend crusaders because they play one.</p></blockquote><p>I think it's more like people started to play a guardian cause it was the flavor of the month, warriorstyle but then when TSO came saw that the crusader was fixed and got jealous and saw crusaders even replacing them as MT..</p></blockquote><p>If people just played guards cuz it was FotM, they would be playing crusaders now.... on the forums, telling everyone tank balance is better than it has ever been.</p></blockquote><p>People who switch to a class that is fotm will never know what they miss when trying to master a class.Spec against the things where you think your class dosnt does the best. This can be done mostly by equip.There is gear to spec against nearly any flaw a class can have. Find it, check it out, or spend your time whining on the forums.</p><p>1. Tank balance was never closer to equal then now. Balancing things out can happen through little nerfs and buffs. Nerfing a class to death like some people cry out here can and will not.2. Names of people who rush in every thread to cry nerf havoc sk dosn't vary really. Its getting odd, and it dosnt gets more important through this.3. Some people will never stop whining until they are OP.</p><p>Have you ever thought about playing as a team with a other tank class instead of seeing them as opponents?I think you be astonished how good thinks work out.</p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>Azzaroth@Valor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Levatino wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong><em><span>"people just complain cause an SK is doing better than them."</span></em></strong></p><p>People just defend crusaders because they play one.</p></blockquote><p>I think it's more like people started to play a guardian cause it was the flavor of the month, warriorstyle but then when TSO came saw that the crusader was fixed and got jealous and saw crusaders even replacing them as MT..</p></blockquote><p>If people just played guards cuz it was FotM, they would be playing crusaders now.... on the forums, telling everyone tank balance is better than it has ever been.</p></blockquote><p>People who switch to a class that is fotm will never know what they miss when trying to master a class.Spec against the things where you think your class dosnt does the best. This can be done mostly by equip.There is gear to spec against nearly any flaw a class can have. Find it, check it out, or spend your time whining on the forums.</p><p>1. Tank balance was never closer to equal then now <strong><em><span style="color: #ff9900;">if they are end game geared</span></em></strong>. Balancing things out can happen through little nerfs and buffs. Nerfing a class to death like some people cry out here can and will not.2. Names of people who rush in every thread to cry nerf havoc sk dosn't vary really. Its getting odd, and it dosnt gets more important through this.3. Some people will never stop whining until they are OP.</p><p>Have you ever thought about playing as a team with a other tank class instead of seeing them as opponents?I think you be astonished how good thinks work out.</p></blockquote><p>There fixed it for you.</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p><cite>Azzaroth@Valor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Balancing things out can happen through little nerfs and buffs. Nerfing a class to death like some people cry out here can and will not.</p></blockquote><p>Neither does overbuffing a class.</p><p>But you are correct ...we dont need massive nerfs or buffs now....what we need is tweaks....SK survivability it out of proportion to its DPS while tanking and needs to be toned down.  Its the only solution.  Buffing other fighter DPS/Aggro is not the answer.   SKs should be DPS monsters....but they should be much harder to keep up than they currently are.  Also AEs  need to scale down depending on encounter size so that a SK struggles on a single target as much as a Guard struggles on AEs but shines on AE....then the whole ST -vs- AE tank distinction might make sense cause currently it doesnt since AE tanks have as good or better control over singles as a ST tank does.</p><p>Its only in raids and then only select encounters where tanks working together matters.  And once fights have been mastered its often more optimal to use a Brigand for those fights that have specific requirements for fighter class.</p><p>Running heroic zones with 2 fighters is about as non-optimal as you can possibly get.</p><p>There has never been a class who's pupulation has skyrocketed more due to being FOTM than current SK.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Azzaroth@Valor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Balancing things out can happen through little nerfs and buffs. Nerfing a class to death like some people cry out here can and will not.</p></blockquote><p>Neither does overbuffing a class.</p><p>But you are correct ...we dont need massive nerfs or buffs now....what we need is tweaks....SK survivability it out of proportion to its DPS while tanking and needs to be toned down.  Its the only solution.  Buffing other fighter DPS/Aggro is not the answer.   SKs should be DPS monsters....but they should be much harder to keep up than they currently are.  Also AEs  need to scale down depending on encounter size so that a SK struggles on a single target as much as a Guard struggles on AEs but shines on AE....then the whole ST -vs- AE tank distinction might make sense cause currently it doesnt since AE tanks have as good or better control over singles as a ST tank does.</p><p>Its only in raids and then only select encounters where tanks working together matters.  And once fights have been mastered its often more optimal to use a Brigand for those fights that have specific requirements for fighter class.</p><p>Running heroic zones with 2 fighters is about as non-optimal as you can possibly get.</p><p>There has never been a class who's pupulation has skyrocketed more due to being FOTM than current SK.</p></blockquote><p>SKs already take more damage than the other 3 plate tanks....mainly due to less survivability abilities and the ones they have are on the longer end of the recast times.  Also Paladins and Bezerkers DPS just as much as SKs.  You nerf SK survivability more and it just means bringing in more Zerkers/Paladins and its not like they are hurting for spots.  Very few guilds are replacing their MTs from Guards, but the few that are seem to all be going with Paladin...wow I wonder why that is.  Probably because they take less damage and are kings of agro.</p><p>Again give Guards a lil more in heroic, if it keeps you guys from complaining and completely messing up balance at the raid level.  I mean I guess the fact that you can easily tank every heroic zone just quite isn't enough.</p><p>As far as the FoTM comment people like the idea of SK.  It is probably one of the most popular classes lore-wise for RP'ing games; however, for the longest time it was just a ridiculous idea to roll up a SK.  I mean you had every other plate tank spanking them in every category.  I mean nothing was worse than in RoK when the offensive plate tank was being out DPS'd by the defensive tank easily.  So they finally fix things, bump it up a little to actually make the class attractive again, and people flocked to it.  How many of those SKs are just alts?  I think half the people in my guild have a SK because guess what they always liked the idea of a SK and now they can add it to their roster without thinking it is a total waste of time.  SKs entered SF with less on the table from their SF AAs.  The small gap closed up even more and now there is a huge diversity in tanks.  Every tank is being utilized throughout the game.  So what exactly is the issue?</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Azzaroth@Valor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: medium;"><em><strong>People just defend crusaders because they play one.</strong></em></span></p></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><p>People who switch to a class that is fotm will never know what they miss when trying to master a class.Spec against the things where you think your class dosnt does the best. This can be done mostly by equip.There is gear to spec against nearly any flaw a class can have. Find it, check it out, or spend your time whining on the forums.</p><p>1. Tank balance was never closer to equal then now. Balancing things out can happen through little nerfs and buffs. Nerfing a class to death like some people cry out here can and will not.2. Names of people who rush in every thread to cry nerf havoc sk dosn't vary really. Its getting odd, and it dosnt gets more important through this.3. Some people will never stop whining until they are OP.</p><p>Have you ever thought about playing as a team with a other tank class instead of seeing them as opponents?I think you be astonished how good thinks work out.</p></blockquote><p>Thanks for proving my point. Only one or two people have asked for severe nerfs btw.</p>

[KinMorbidreamer]

<p><cite>Azzaroth@Valor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Levatino wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong><em><span>"people just complain cause an SK is doing better than them."</span></em></strong></p><p>People just defend crusaders because they play one.</p></blockquote><p>I think it's more like people started to play a guardian cause it was the flavor of the month, warriorstyle but then when TSO came saw that the crusader was fixed and got jealous and saw crusaders even replacing them as MT..</p></blockquote><p>If people just played guards cuz it was FotM, they would be playing crusaders now.... on the forums, telling everyone tank balance is better than it has ever been.</p></blockquote><p>People who switch to a class that is fotm will never know what they miss when trying to master a class.Spec against the things where you think your class dosnt does the best. This can be done mostly by equip.There is gear to spec against nearly any flaw a class can have. Find it, check it out, or spend your time whining on the forums.</p><p>1. Tank balance was never closer to equal then now. Balancing things out can happen through little nerfs and buffs. Nerfing a class to death like some people cry out here can and will not.<strong>2. Names of people who rush in every thread to cry nerf havoc sk dosn't vary really. Its getting odd, and it dosnt gets more important through this.</strong>3. Some people will never stop whining until they are OP.</p><p>Have you ever thought about playing as a team with a other tank class instead of seeing them as opponents?I think you be astonished how good thinks work out.</p></blockquote><p>bolded for emphasis.</p><p>No, it really doesn't vary at all. Its always the same two guardians fighting tooth and nail to get something fixed that isn't even broken and yes, it really is getting old.</p><p>From a brief stroll to the flames guardian board I saw most guardians there are happy with their class, so why can't these two particular guardians be happy too?</p><p>I was one of (if not) the first HE SKs in EQ2 so that FoTM crap does not apply to me. I trudged through the game with a crap class for years before giving up, trying WoW (in which the warriors were particularly whiny as well, hmm...), and coming back only to met with FoTM accusations, and being called OP. I think these two guardians need to realize that they aren't the only guys playing the game and need to live and let live as they say.</p>

[KinMorbidreamer]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Azzaroth@Valor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Balancing things out can happen through little nerfs and buffs. Nerfing a class to death like some people cry out here can and will not.</p></blockquote><p>Neither does overbuffing a class.</p><p>But you are correct ...we dont need massive nerfs or buffs now....what we need is tweaks....SK survivability it out of proportion to its DPS while tanking and needs to be toned down.  Its the only solution.  Buffing other fighter DPS/Aggro is not the answer.   SKs should be DPS monsters....but they should be much harder to keep up than they currently are.  Also AEs  need to scale down depending on encounter size so that a SK struggles on a single target as much as a Guard struggles on AEs but shines on AE....then the whole ST -vs- AE tank distinction might make sense cause currently it doesnt since AE tanks have as good or better control over singles as a ST tank does.</p><p>Its only in raids and then only select encounters where tanks working together matters.  And once fights have been mastered its often more optimal to use a Brigand for those fights that have specific requirements for fighter class.</p><p>Running heroic zones with 2 fighters is about as non-optimal as you can possibly get.</p><p>There has never been a class who's pupulation has skyrocketed more due to being FOTM than current SK.</p></blockquote><p>SKs already take more damage than the other 3 plate tanks....mainly due to less survivability abilities and the ones they have are on the longer end of the recast times.  Also Paladins and Bezerkers DPS just as much as SKs.  You nerf SK survivability more and it just means bringing in more Zerkers/Paladins and its not like they are hurting for spots.  Very few guilds are replacing their MTs from Guards, but the few that are seem to all be going with Paladin...wow I wonder why that is.  Probably because they take less damage and are kings of agro.</p><p>Again give Guards a lil more in heroic, if it keeps you guys from complaining and completely messing up balance at the raid level.  I mean I guess the fact that you can easily tank every heroic zone just quite isn't enough.</p><p><strong>As far as the FoTM comment people like the idea of SK.  It is probably one of the most popular classes lore-wise for RP'ing games; however, for the longest time it was just a ridiculous idea to roll up a SK.  I mean you had every other plate tank spanking them in every category.  I mean nothing was worse than in RoK when the offensive plate tank was being out DPS'd by the defensive tank easily.  So they finally fix things, bump it up a little to actually make the class attractive again, and people flocked to it.  How many of those SKs are just alts?  I think half the people in my guild have a SK because guess what they always liked the idea of a SK and now they can add it to their roster without thinking it is a total waste of time.  SKs entered SF with less on the table from their SF AAs.  The small gap closed up even more and now there is a huge diversity in tanks.  Every tank is being utilized throughout the game.  So what exactly is the issue?</strong></p></blockquote><p>Sorry for double post and again, bolded for emphasis.</p><p>SKs have always.. ALWAYS been an extremely popular class even as far back as EQ1 I'd say DE SK was one of the most overplayed race/class combinations.</p><p>I see way more zerkers these days than anything else anyway, so I think Gaylon's mileage varies from the rest of ours (or at least mine, at any rate)</p><p>Edit: oh, and wardens.. lots and lots and lots of wardens <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Nakash]

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Azzaroth@Valor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: medium;"><em><strong>People just defend crusaders because they play one.</strong></em></span></p></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><p>People who switch to a class that is fotm will never know what they miss when trying to master a class.Spec against the things where you think your class dosnt does the best. This can be done mostly by equip.There is gear to spec against nearly any flaw a class can have. Find it, check it out, or spend your time whining on the forums.</p><p>1. Tank balance was never closer to equal then now. Balancing things out can happen through little nerfs and buffs. Nerfing a class to death like some people cry out here can and will not.2. Names of people who rush in every thread to cry nerf havoc sk dosn't vary really. Its getting odd, and it dosnt gets more important through this.3. Some people will never stop whining until they are OP.</p><p>Have you ever thought about playing as a team with a other tank class instead of seeing them as opponents?I think you be astonished how good thinks work out.</p></blockquote><p>Thanks for proving my point. Only one or two people have asked for severe nerfs btw.</p></blockquote><p>Only point i can proof is you and some others whining all over the forum again and again cause they want to get crusaders get nerfed. For some reason you seem not to be able to play your class while you feel hurt by some others doing well.</p><p>Namecalling is forbidden here, otherwise i would just list some names to make clear where the problem is.</p><p>In the end go fokus on your class and stop bickering. As already stated this is geting very odd see you and some other bickering on every thread where the two letters sk coming up. I am sry but i dont see where i can help you and some others with "your" problem.</p><p>so have a nice day.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p>Why does everyone think sucking at a guardian is a prerequisite for seeing crusaders are OP? The L2P cop-out is dumb and everyone likes to use it when they have no evidence to support their argument. Guardians are fine. I personally don't see a need to buff guardians or tanking would just be stupid easy (and it's already pretty easy with a dirge). Problem is, crusaders do more damage and have more threat while keep all the uncontested avoidance from a tower shield, both crusaders are the best soloers of fighters, they destroy face in pvp compared to a guard, shadowknights have the highest survivability of all fighters when there are a ton of mobs, paladins can play in the MT roll in a raid virtually equal to a guardian. Some advantages are fine, and both crusaders should excell at some things over all other fighters... but not almost everything. I believe shadowknights should be doing more dps than guards, solo better, and do better in 1 vs 1 pvp. But if this is to be the case then having more or very close to the survivability of a guardian in a group or raid vs one mob or many mobs is not balanced. Survivability and protecting group/raid members is the only thing a guard has going for it, it's why I rolled one, and it's what they are known for.</p><p>Guardians have <em>maybe</em> a slight survivability edge over paladins against single targets that can swat you for 50% + HP, and a better array of threat snaps. That's the only thing guardians have over any other fighter. Quite simply, if you kids really think guardians are just as good as crusaders (IE: balanced) you are delusional. If you want further evidence look at population numbers in tier 9. Look at how many players are playing shadowknights, and how many are playing guardians. I promise you shadowknight is not the most played class in the game because it's fun to RP with lulz.</p><p>If these posts are getting old and bother you, feel free to quit clicking on the thread champ. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8f7fb9dd46fb8ef86f81154a4feaada9.gif" border="0" /> I'm not creating these threads. Two of them were created by shadowknights, so go figure. I'm not PMing the devs, or invading the crusader boards like many of your bretheren troll the guard board. I just post my opinion here and get on with the rest of my day. Honestly I really don't expect any nerfs, and I wouldn't be surprised if crusaders got more fixes and buffs (like fixing the shadowknight fluff pet, cuz that was important) while guardians and rangers continue to be left to their own devices.</p>

[Landiin]

If you mean a couple to be almost every one then yea...

[KinMorbidreamer]

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Why does everyone think sucking at a guardian is a prerequisite for seeing crusaders are OP? The L2P cop-out is dumb and everyone likes to use it when they have no evidence to support their argument. Guardians are fine. I personally don't see a need to buff guardians or tanking would just be stupid easy (and it's already pretty easy with a dirge).<span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong> Problem is, crusaders do more damage and have more threat</strong></span> while keep all the uncontested avoidance from a tower shield, both crusaders are the best soloers of fighters, they destroy face in pvp compared to a guard, shadowknights have the highest survivability of all fighters when there are a ton of mobs, paladins can play in the MT roll in a raid virtually equal to a guardian. Some advantages are fine, and both crusaders should excell at some things over all other fighters... but not almost everything. I believe shadowknights should be doing more dps than guards, solo better, and do better in 1 vs 1 pvp. But if this is to be the case then having more or very close to the survivability of a guardian in a group or raid vs one mob or many mobs is not balanced. Survivability and protecting group/raid members is the only thing a guard has going for it, it's why I rolled one, and it's what they are known for.</p><p>Guardians have <em>maybe</em> a slight survivability edge over paladins against single targets that can swat you for 50% + HP, and a better array of threat snaps. That's the only thing guardians have over any other fighter. Quite simply, if you kids really think guardians are just as good as crusaders (IE: balanced) you are delusional. If you want further evidence look at population numbers in tier 9. Look at how many players are playing shadowknights, and how many are playing guardians. I promise you shadowknight is not the most played class in the game because it's fun to RP with lulz.</p><p>If these posts are getting old and bother you, feel free to quit clicking on the thread champ. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8f7fb9dd46fb8ef86f81154a4feaada9.gif" border="0" /> I'm not creating these threads. Two of them were created by shadowknights, so go figure. I'm not PMing the devs, or invading the crusader boards like many of your bretheren troll the guard board. I just post my opinion here and get on with the rest of my day. Honestly I really don't expect any nerfs, and I wouldn't be surprised if crusaders got more fixes and buffs (like fixing the shadowknight fluff pet, cuz that was important) while guardians and rangers continue to be left to their own devices.</p></blockquote><p>So, thats what your huge stink is? An e-ego* parse? Oh please.</p><p>Guards are STILL the go to tank for raids as they always have been which has also been the only reason to ever roll one up to begin with.</p><p>Why should a class get nerfed into the dirt just because your e-feelings are hurt over their damage output?</p><p>That "look at how many ppl play SKs!" cop-out is just as lame as the L2P cop-out and probably even less true, so ffs drop it already.</p><p>*-The other word I used is censored I guess <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Iadenie@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Why does everyone think sucking at a guardian is a prerequisite for seeing crusaders are OP? The L2P cop-out is dumb and everyone likes to use it when they have no evidence to support their argument. Guardians are fine. I personally don't see a need to buff guardians or tanking would just be stupid easy (and it's already pretty easy with a dirge).<span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong> Problem is, crusaders do more damage and have more threat</strong></span> while keep all the uncontested avoidance from a tower shield, both crusaders are the best soloers of fighters, they destroy face in pvp compared to a guard, shadowknights have the highest survivability of all fighters when there are a ton of mobs, paladins can play in the MT roll in a raid virtually equal to a guardian. Some advantages are fine, and both crusaders should excell at some things over all other fighters... but not almost everything. I believe shadowknights should be doing more dps than guards, solo better, and do better in 1 vs 1 pvp. But if this is to be the case then having more or very close to the survivability of a guardian in a group or raid vs one mob or many mobs is not balanced. Survivability and protecting group/raid members is the only thing a guard has going for it, it's why I rolled one, and it's what they are known for.</p><p>Guardians have <em>maybe</em> a slight survivability edge over paladins against single targets that can swat you for 50% + HP, and a better array of threat snaps. That's the only thing guardians have over any other fighter. Quite simply, if you kids really think guardians are just as good as crusaders (IE: balanced) you are delusional. If you want further evidence look at population numbers in tier 9. Look at how many players are playing shadowknights, and how many are playing guardians. I promise you shadowknight is not the most played class in the game because it's fun to RP with lulz.</p><p>If these posts are getting old and bother you, feel free to quit clicking on the thread champ. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8f7fb9dd46fb8ef86f81154a4feaada9.gif" border="0" /> I'm not creating these threads. Two of them were created by shadowknights, so go figure. I'm not PMing the devs, or invading the crusader boards like many of your bretheren troll the guard board. I just post my opinion here and get on with the rest of my day. Honestly I really don't expect any nerfs, and I wouldn't be surprised if crusaders got more fixes and buffs (like fixing the shadowknight fluff pet, cuz that was important) while guardians and rangers continue to be left to their own devices.</p></blockquote><p>So, thats what your huge stink is? An e-ego* parse? Oh please.</p><p>Guards are STILL the go to tank for raids as they always have been which has also been the only reason to ever roll one up to begin with.</p><p>Why should a class get nerfed into the dirt just because your e-feelings are hurt over their damage output?</p><p>That "look at how many ppl play SKs!" cop-out is just as lame as the L2P cop-out and probably even less true, so ffs drop it already.</p><p>*-The other word I used is censored I guess <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Yeah, I mean nevermind the fact that Guards generate enough ST and AE agro to hold hate off of any class besides a fighter bent on ripping it.</p><p>Maybe, just maybe the extra damage/threat is to make up for the fact Guards can bulk down and become way more defensive.</p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Iadenie@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Why does everyone think sucking at a guardian is a prerequisite for seeing crusaders are OP? The L2P cop-out is dumb and everyone likes to use it when they have no evidence to support their argument. Guardians are fine. I personally don't see a need to buff guardians or tanking would just be stupid easy (and it's already pretty easy with a dirge).<span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong> Problem is, crusaders do more damage and have more threat</strong></span> while keep all the uncontested avoidance from a tower shield, both crusaders are the best soloers of fighters, they destroy face in pvp compared to a guard, shadowknights have the highest survivability of all fighters when there are a ton of mobs, paladins can play in the MT roll in a raid virtually equal to a guardian. Some advantages are fine, and both crusaders should excell at some things over all other fighters... but not almost everything. I believe shadowknights should be doing more dps than guards, solo better, and do better in 1 vs 1 pvp. But if this is to be the case then having more or very close to the survivability of a guardian in a group or raid vs one mob or many mobs is not balanced. Survivability and protecting group/raid members is the only thing a guard has going for it, it's why I rolled one, and it's what they are known for.</p><p>Guardians have <em>maybe</em> a slight survivability edge over paladins against single targets that can swat you for 50% + HP, and a better array of threat snaps. That's the only thing guardians have over any other fighter. Quite simply, if you kids really think guardians are just as good as crusaders (IE: balanced) you are delusional. If you want further evidence look at population numbers in tier 9. Look at how many players are playing shadowknights, and how many are playing guardians. I promise you shadowknight is not the most played class in the game because it's fun to RP with lulz.</p><p>If these posts are getting old and bother you, feel free to quit clicking on the thread champ. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8f7fb9dd46fb8ef86f81154a4feaada9.gif" border="0" /> I'm not creating these threads. Two of them were created by shadowknights, so go figure. I'm not PMing the devs, or invading the crusader boards like many of your bretheren troll the guard board. I just post my opinion here and get on with the rest of my day. Honestly I really don't expect any nerfs, and I wouldn't be surprised if crusaders got more fixes and buffs (like fixing the shadowknight fluff pet, cuz that was important) while guardians and rangers continue to be left to their own devices.</p></blockquote><p>So, thats what your huge stink is? An e-ego* parse? Oh please.</p><p>Guards are STILL the go to tank for raids as they always have been which has also been the only reason to ever roll one up to begin with.</p><p>Why should a class get nerfed into the dirt just because your e-feelings are hurt over their damage output?</p><p>That "look at how many ppl play SKs!" cop-out is just as lame as the L2P cop-out and probably even less true, so ffs drop it already.</p><p>*-The other word I used is censored I guess <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Yeah, I mean nevermind the fact that Guards generate enough ST and AE agro to hold hate off of any class besides a fighter bent on ripping it.</p><p>Maybe, just maybe the extra damage/threat is to make up for the fact Guards can bulk down and become way more defensive.</p></blockquote><p>LOL you are truly missing a couple chromosomes. </p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>LOL you are truly missing a couple chromosomes. </p></blockquote><p>As usual you just seem to bring so much insight to threads on this board.</p><p>Keep up the good work.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Iadenie@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong> Problem is, crusaders do more damage and have more threat</strong></span> <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: #ff00ff;"><strong>while keep all the uncontested avoidance from a tower shield</strong></span></span>, both crusaders are the best soloers of fighters, they destroy face in pvp compared to a guard, shadowknights have the highest survivability of all fighters when there are a ton of mobs, paladins can play in the MT roll in a raid virtually equal to a guardian.<em> <span style="color: #ff00ff;"><strong>Some advantages are fine, and both crusaders should excell at some things over all other fighters... but not almost everything.</strong></span></em> <span style="color: #ff00ff;"><em><strong>I believe shadowknights should be doing more dps than guards, solo better, and do better in 1 vs 1 pvp.</strong></em> But if this is to be the case then having more or very close to the survivability of a guardian in a group or raid vs one mob or many mobs is not balanced. Survivability and protecting group/raid members is the only thing a guard has going for it, it's why I rolled one, and it's what they are known for.</span></p></blockquote><p>So, thats what your huge stink is? An e-ego* parse? Oh please.</p><p><em>You are dumb because you can't read. Have an adult read the pretty pink and bold text I highlighted for you, because your brain failed to process that information. In case your daddy doesn't get it either, just know the problem is not my dps [Removed for Content].</em></p><p>Guards are STILL the go to tank for raids as they always have been which has also been the only reason to ever roll one up to begin with.</p><p><em>You are wrong. The reason to roll a guard has always been to play the most defensive pure tank available. That doesn't change whether you are raiding or grouping. Guilds are using all kinds of plate tanks as main tanks. The fact that you truly believe SOE created one class that is only good for raiding, and is only good for one spot in a raid, and there are probably less than 200 raid guilds in the whole game using a guardian but thousands of people roll a guardian, really shows you aren't thinking before you type. Hell, you have already proven you don't read (or comprehend anyway) the post before you type either.</em></p><p>Why should a class get nerfed into the dirt just because your e-feelings are hurt over their damage output?</p><p><em>Dumb comment that has nothing to do with my post.</em></p><p>That "look at how many ppl play SKs!" cop-out is just as lame as the L2P cop-out and probably even less true, so ffs drop it already.</p><p><em>Not really. One is evidence, the other is a slogan you use when you have nothing to back your argument.</em></p></blockquote>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>LOL you are truly missing a couple chromosomes. </p></blockquote><p>As usual you just seem to bring so much insight to threads on this board.</p><p>Keep up the good work.</p></blockquote><p>Why would I bring any more insight then already has been brought. All you bring is the same thing over and over that has been disproved or lacking in any factual data. It is a clear fact that crusaders do far to much DPS with sword and board. </p><p>Again; you are truly missing a couple chromosomes.</p>

[KinMorbidreamer]

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Iadenie@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong> Problem is, crusaders do more damage and have more threat</strong></span> <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: #ff00ff;"><strong>while keep all the uncontested avoidance from a tower shield</strong></span></span>, both crusaders are the best soloers of fighters, they destroy face in pvp compared to a guard, shadowknights have the highest survivability of all fighters when there are a ton of mobs, paladins can play in the MT roll in a raid virtually equal to a guardian.<em> <span style="color: #ff00ff;"><strong>Some advantages are fine, and both crusaders should excell at some things over all other fighters... but not almost everything.</strong></span></em> <span style="color: #ff00ff;"><em><strong>I believe shadowknights should be doing more dps than guards, solo better, and do better in 1 vs 1 pvp.</strong></em> But if this is to be the case then having more or very close to the survivability of a guardian in a group or raid vs one mob or many mobs is not balanced. Survivability and protecting group/raid members is the only thing a guard has going for it, it's why I rolled one, and it's what they are known for.</span></p><p><strong>And they do their job just fine. Maybe you, in particular do not, but most guards I've seen do.</strong></p></blockquote><p>So, thats what your huge stink is? An e-ego* parse? Oh please.</p><p><em>You are dumb because you can't read. Have an adult read the pretty pink and bold text I highlighted for you, because your brain failed to process that information. In case your daddy doesn't get it either, just know the problem is not my dps [Removed for Content].</em></p><p><strong>I am dumb? Oh noes, I got insulted by a guy on the internet, what ever shall I do?</strong></p><p>Guards are STILL the go to tank for raids as they always have been which has also been the only reason to ever roll one up to begin with.</p><p><em>You are wrong. The reason to roll a guard has always been to play the most defensive pure tank available. That doesn't change whether you are raiding or grouping. Guilds are using all kinds of plate tanks as main tanks. The fact that you truly believe SOE created one class that is only good for raiding, and is only good for one spot in a raid, and there are probably less than 200 raid guilds in the whole game using a guardian but thousands of people roll a guardian, really shows you aren't thinking before you type. Hell, you have already proven you don't read (or comprehend anyway) the post before you type either.</em></p><p><strong>No, I am not wrong. Maybe its your server, but every high end guild on Permafrost and every other server I've read about uses a guard as their MT. Insulting me only proves you lack the intelligence to debate any further than baseless whining.</strong></p><p>Why should a class get nerfed into the dirt just because your e-feelings are hurt over their damage output?</p><p><em>Dumb comment that has nothing to do with my post.</em></p><p><strong>Again, from every post I see about you crying about crusaders it seems DPS is the big whine factor, leading me to believe DPS output has everything to do with your post. If it didn't then you wouldn't be crying over the fact that an SK (an offensive tank no less) outparses guards by a sizable amount.</strong></p><p>That "look at how many ppl play SKs!" cop-out is just as lame as the L2P cop-out and probably even less true, so ffs drop it already.</p><p><em>Not really. One is evidence, the other is a slogan you use when you have nothing to back your argument.</em></p><p><strong>Another popular slogan is this one: Cry Moar, scrub.</strong></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>Yeah, since Rahat cannot think of anything more intelligent to say than calling me dumb, saying I can't read, and insulting my father I'm done.</p><p>Enjoy your baseless whine fest and try to not burst a blood vessel while raging over your next reply to me while coming up with the next wonderful salvo of QQ/insults.</p><p>I got guards to outparse afterall!</p>

[Nightshade]

<p>Perhaps the forum moderators should create an entire sub-forum dedicated to nothing but "Shadowknights should be nerfed because. . ." (minus proper spelling and grammar, since that is severely lacking in many posts).</p><p>That is a serious suggestion, by the way; I'm having a difficult time finding relevant topics anymore due to all these threads.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Iadenie@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><blockquote>Guards are STILL the go to tank for raids as they always have been which has also been the only reason to ever roll one up to begin with.<p><em>You are wrong. The reason to roll a guard has always been to play the most defensive pure tank available. That doesn't change whether you are raiding or grouping. Guilds are using all kinds of plate tanks as main tanks. The fact that you truly believe SOE created one class that is only good for raiding, and is only good for one spot in a raid, and there are probably less than 200 raid guilds in the whole game using a guardian but thousands of people roll a guardian, really shows you aren't thinking before you type. Hell, you have already proven you don't read (or comprehend anyway) the post before you type either.</em></p><p><strong>No, I am not wrong. Maybe its your server, but every high end guild on Permafrost and every other server I've read about uses a guard as their MT. Insulting me only proves you lack the intelligence to debate any further than baseless whining.</strong></p></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><p>You are wrong. Your reading comprehension is that of a 2nd grader. Just because the 3 or 4 high end guilds on your server use guardian tanks doesn't mean raid tanking is the only reason to roll one. That doesn't even make sense. And insulting you has nothing to do with a lack of intelligence, it's just a little spice thrown into an otherwise boring and repetative post. You know... the same stuff fighters have been fighting about since the beginning of MMOs.</p><p>But I do get your opinion. You think guards are fine and crusaders are not OP. You apparently think I rolled a guardian because you think I have a hard-on for dps. You are definitly entitled to believe whatever BS you want. You can believe the world is flat and the moon is made of cheese for all I care. It doesn't change the facts though.</p>