What is a Guardian's Role? [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Ardors

03-30-2010, 03:18 PM

Our “niche” was always being able to take a hit better and soak up more damage than other plate tanks…and for that we gave up on utility and DPS other tanks enjoy. With the introduction of diminishing returns for stats, we saw that advantage of ours pretty much disappear…and I am talking at the Raiding level here, because we all agree I am sure that if you don’t raid, most any other plate tank class will be a better and a more “Fun” class to play.With the release of SF, some changes were made and I do see this survivability edge return a bit, but nothing like it should be imo… We do have some saves that helps out in certain situation, and agro is better in SF than it was in TSO but that’s for all tanks so it’s kind of a moot point… So yeah…I have a few more “holy sh**” buttons and a tad more survivability but sadly that’s about it…I am still the MT of my guild because I have been the MT for 4 years…not because Guards are the best class for raid MT…We can do the job just fine, like the other 3 plate tanks, but have less utility and dps to speak of.

Yimway

03-30-2010, 06:34 PM

<cite>MJDevos wrote:</cite><blockquote>A Guardians role is to take the hits, for the class can do it better then any other.</blockquote>Unless your talking pvp, in which case, not so much.Our role is to be the break in tank for new raid content, thats really about it.

Vlahkmaak

03-31-2010, 02:03 AM

Your job is to hold the tank spot till the pally or SK logs in.

MJDevos

03-31-2010, 10:26 AM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MJDevos wrote:</cite><blockquote>A Guardians role is to take the hits, for the class can do it better then any other.</blockquote>Unless your talking pvp, in which case, not so much.Our role is to be the break in tank for new raid content, thats really about it.</blockquote>In PvP our job is to die first and if you are lucky enough to stay alive after target locking multiple people is to continue to take the damage as the others with you kill them.

Razzak1

03-31-2010, 12:19 PM

<cite>Cerithian wrote:</cite><blockquote>We can't take damage like other tanking classes. </blockquote>What??? We are bar-none the best defensive tank atm. With SF being all about healing and not curing, our survivability, HP and ability to take a hit puts us back on top as the raid tank of choice.

vinere

03-31-2010, 01:18 PM

I still dont know why everyone is so down on guardians in this expansion. With the changes to TOS(4 procs, no sheild damnage), making unyielding will not kill you, and getting the 8 hit 80% mitigation(even tho it still needs changed to only work on hits over 10% of your health) we maintained our role as the best tank as far as taking damnage. Also with all the hate changes, and the new procs on items, keeping agro is doable, tho could still use a tweak for guilds with 40k dps'rs. And in group content we got it good with group moderate, and all the new hate adorns. You acn accually do a group now without a dirge or coercer, and still be ok.

RafaelSmith

03-31-2010, 03:21 PM

Atan pretty much summed it up best. We are the best at handling DMG when first tackling new RAID content. Once the encounter has been learned and farmed a few times then the advantage is gone at which point any of the other plate tanks are not only more than capabable they are actually better choices because of goodies they bring to the raid in addition to "tanking".Personally I am happy with my Guard today but I know its because he is still in the 'break in' phase of the expansion.While alot of the things that were frustrating in TSO have been minimized some things are still not quite balanced. Crusaders are able to progress easily to the point where they are best choice fo either MT or "OT" slots while Guards simpy start out as best choice for MT on new content....where "new" is only "new" the first 1-2 times....we do not really progress into having more options available to us.And when it comes to heroic instancing......we are the absolute worst beit the 1st day of the expansion or the 400th. Some tweaks were made in SF that made doing instancing with a Guard less frustrating for those times when there are no Crusaders or Zerkers around but thats really about it =P

Lethe5683

03-31-2010, 03:37 PM

<cite>Cerithian wrote:</cite><blockquote>We can't take damage like other tanking classes.</blockquote>You have got to be kidding...

Gladiolus

03-31-2010, 05:44 PM

As I don't play fighters, I can't say anything from that standpoint. My characters are healers, and from that point of view, I'd rather have a guardian tanking than any other class.

RafaelSmith

03-31-2010, 06:01 PM

<cite>Gladiolus wrote:</cite><blockquote>My characters are healers, and from that point of view, I'd rather have a guardian tanking than any other class.</blockquote>Would be curious if your answer is the same 3 months from now. And what raids/instances have you healed thru? Done Vigilant x2 with a Guard -vs- Zerker/SK/Pally?

Lethe5683

03-31-2010, 10:17 PM

TBH on my healer I prefer a crusader tank but I don't discriminate when looking for tanks other than the ones who I know by name to be bad.

RafaelSmith

04-01-2010, 10:28 AM

<cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote>TBH on my healer I prefer a crusader tank but I don't discriminate when looking for tanks other than the ones who I know by name to be bad.</blockquote>Most of the healers I know say the same thing.....with the exception of tackling new progression mobs they almost always would prefer a Crusader. Especially for heroic and trivial raid contnet, It just makes their life as a healer so much easier.The tweaks and new AAs we got in SF have made it so as a healer for a group having a Guard as MT is not the deteriment it was in TSO. The run will still be slower than with a Crusader but at least not the frustrating nightmare it was before.

Landiin

04-01-2010, 01:17 PM

It is a crusaders world not matter how u try to spin it. Just deal and go on. The dev don't care about true balance it seems, yea we are closer then in TSO but /shrug. balancing aggro to survivability is kind of dumb IMO but thats just me. I really don't care any any more, I just play the class with what they give me, people just have to deal with down falls of the class is all.

RafaelSmith

04-01-2010, 01:32 PM

<cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is a crusaders world not matter how u try to spin it. Just deal and go on. The dev don't care about true balance it seems, yea we are closer then in TSO but /shrug. balancing aggro to survivability is kind of dumb IMO but thats just me. I really don't care any any more, I just play the class with what they give me, people just have to deal with down falls of the class is all.</blockquote>Its funny cause when TSO launched it was clear path SOE was gonna go down for fighters.......It [Removed for Content] me off to no-end, I ranted and raved and eventually just kinda gave up.SF launches........nothing really has changed much but for some reason this time I just don't care....could be cause ive finally accepted that Guardian just doesnt have a place in the bulk of the games content. I still play him but only when grouping with close friends or boxing with my Assassin.

Bruener

04-01-2010, 08:30 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gladiolus wrote:</cite><blockquote>My characters are healers, and from that point of view, I'd rather have a guardian tanking than any other class.</blockquote>Would be curious if your answer is the same 3 months from now. And what raids/instances have you healed thru? Done Vigilant x2 with a Guard -vs- Zerker/SK/Pally?</blockquote>Well since SF is obviously going to follow the path of the last couple xpacs you can definitely expect a new raid zone in that time. In fact we will probably have a couple new zones this xpac until the next xpac...because SOE has to keep guilds progressing or they will be out of content.All that is going on here is a couple of people that were asking for the Sun for Guardians are disappointed because they only received the Moon. Guards are by far the most durable tank and the only time a Guard will have problems with agro is when another hate buffed Fighter decides to give them trouble. I am probably the only person that pulls off of our Guard in a raid setting, and it is a lot harder to do now than it was in TSO. The second a mob is pulled Guards simply pop Reinforcement (the only plate tank to keep an ability like this) and they are in the clear again. The only problem that a Guard might have is not having their ego stroked because other fighters can produce some more hate.

Grumpy_Warrior_01

04-02-2010, 09:50 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>the only time a Guard will have problems with agro is when another hate buffed Fighter decides to give them trouble. I am probably the only person that pulls off of our Guard in a raid setting, and it is a lot harder to do now than it was in TSO.</blockquote>And this right here tells us the level at which you play, Breuner. I'd be surprised if you're even in a raid guild with an attitude like that. I know it's hard, but try to get over the constant Guardian envy.

Bruener

04-02-2010, 05:59 PM

<cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>the only time a Guard will have problems with agro is when another hate buffed Fighter decides to give them trouble. I am probably the only person that pulls off of our Guard in a raid setting, and it is a lot harder to do now than it was in TSO.</blockquote>And this right here tells us the level at which you play, Breuner. I'd be surprised if you're even in a raid guild with an attitude like that. I know it's hard, but try to get over the constant Guardian envy.</blockquote>Lol. Yep you caught me.

Darkonx

04-05-2010, 02:14 AM

Guards are by far the most durable tanks, and they don't really have any aggro problems assuming they have dirge/coercer for raids. Assuming hate is a non-issue for tanks, all you have left to balance is dps vs survivability. Guards have lower dps, and more survivability. That's how the class has always been except in ROK when guardians were more defensive, AND more offensive, than all other tanks.EDIT: Not sure what more you want? Do you need more tools for heroic content?

Yimway

04-05-2010, 12:45 PM

<cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cerithian wrote:</cite><blockquote>We can't take damage like other tanking classes.</blockquote>You have got to be kidding...</blockquote>Log into pvp and see if you disagree with him.The case is most easily demonstrated in that environment, but its still the case all around.All other tanks heal themselves, we all get to wear very similar gear, about the only thing guard has going for it is the ability to control exactly when we stoneskin, but vs anything other than very hard hitting ST encounters, the other tanks provide better results.

Bruener

04-05-2010, 06:29 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cerithian wrote:</cite><blockquote>We can't take damage like other tanking classes.</blockquote>You have got to be kidding...</blockquote>Log into pvp and see if you disagree with him.The case is most easily demonstrated in that environment, but its still the case all around.All other tanks heal themselves, we all get to wear very similar gear, about the only thing guard has going for it is the ability to control exactly when we stoneskin, but vs anything other than very hard hitting ST encounters, the other tanks provide better results.</blockquote>PvP is a completely different beast so don't even try and compare that style of gaming to what EQ2 actually is in PVE. They should have just made PvP an entirely different game because the majority of the population could care less about it. Even BGs are slowing way down because people realize that PvE is where it is at unless you wanna kill sometime sitting outside a raid.As a raiding SK I can show you the very tiny amount I heal myself. It is laughable. I think Reaver might be lucky to do 100 hps. Usually Stonewill from items stomps on it on the heal parse...something every tank has access to. In fact tanking the same encounter in a raid the overall damage I take compared to the Guard is way way way higher. The harder the mobs hit the more a Guards survivability matters.

Yimway

04-05-2010, 06:52 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Log into pvp and see if you disagree with him.The case is most easily demonstrated in that environment, but its still the case all around.All other tanks heal themselves, we all get to wear very similar gear, about the only thing guard has going for it is the ability to control exactly when we stoneskin, but vs anything other than very hard hitting ST encounters, the other tanks provide better results.</blockquote>As a raiding SK I can show you the very tiny amount I heal myself. It is laughable. I think Reaver might be lucky to do 100 hps. Usually Stonewill from items stomps on it on the heal parse...something every tank has access to. In fact tanking the same encounter in a raid the overall damage I take compared to the Guard is way way way higher. The harder the mobs hit the more a Guards survivability matters.</blockquote>Thats pretty much exactly what I said.Look at your HPS when fighting 20 mobs at once though.

RafaelSmith

04-06-2010, 01:06 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote> The harder the mobs hit the more a Guards survivability matters.</blockquote>Bingo!!Pretty much the same thing several of us have been making. Not arguing that all things being equal (gear/AA/experience) that on the extreme hard hitting mobs your gonna want a Guard tanking......even then its only until you gear up the others and learn the encounter.How many other classes are only the best at only one thing.....one thing that only matters for a very small portion of the games content...and then only for a limited time....... and the absolote worse at everything else that classe's arcehtype is suppose to offer?If "survivability" is suppose to be a Guards nitch then shouldnt he have higher survivability all the time? Shouldnt that survivability for which the GUard sacrifices everything else for actually matter all the time? I guarantee you that an SK, Pally, Zerker, even most Brawlers have higher actual survivability for solo, heroic and most raid content. I am not talking about paperdoll-persona displayed survivability....im talking about actually being less of a strain on the healers and the group overall.

Bruener

04-06-2010, 01:12 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Log into pvp and see if you disagree with him.The case is most easily demonstrated in that environment, but its still the case all around.All other tanks heal themselves, we all get to wear very similar gear, about the only thing guard has going for it is the ability to control exactly when we stoneskin, but vs anything other than very hard hitting ST encounters, the other tanks provide better results.</blockquote>As a raiding SK I can show you the very tiny amount I heal myself. It is laughable. I think Reaver might be lucky to do 100 hps. Usually Stonewill from items stomps on it on the heal parse...something every tank has access to. In fact tanking the same encounter in a raid the overall damage I take compared to the Guard is way way way higher. The harder the mobs hit the more a Guards survivability matters.</blockquote>Thats pretty much exactly what I said.Look at your HPS when fighting 20 mobs at once though.</blockquote>Back to the OP. Guards role is MT hands down. They do that job far better than any other tank. They take way less damage in that role and have tools like Reinforcement to contain a ST mob.No they are not the BEST PvP tank nor are they the BEST Heroic tank. They can do both jobs well though. They are the BEST MT though.

Bruener

04-06-2010, 01:14 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote> The harder the mobs hit the more a Guards survivability matters.</blockquote>Bingo!!Pretty much the same thing several of us have been making. Not arguing that all things being equal (gear/AA/experience) that on the extreme hard hitting mobs your gonna want a Guard tanking......even then its only until you gear up the others and learn the encounter.How many other classes are only the best at only one thing.....one thing that only matters for a very small portion of the games content...and then only for a limited time....... and the absolote worse at everything else that classe's arcehtype is suppose to offer?If "survivability" is suppose to be a Guards nitch then shouldnt he have higher survivability all the time? Shouldnt that survivability for which the GUard sacrifices everything else for actually matter all the time? I guarantee you that an SK, Pally, Zerker, even most Brawlers have higher actual survivability for solo, heroic and most raid content. I am not talking about paperdoll-persona displayed survivability....im talking about actually being less of a strain on the healers and the group overall.</blockquote>BINGO!!!! By being the single best choice for one area it means they are not as good in the other areas. The other areas you have multiple classes competing for the same "spots". People will argue all day long about who is the best instance tank, or who is the best fighter in PvP. But nobody can argue who is the BEST MT out there. Why would you even rol a Guard for anything besides their intended role anyway? Must be left-overs from RoK....

Wasuna

04-06-2010, 02:19 PM

BINGO!!!Everthing your saying about tank balance only applies to MT in a raid. That probably applies to ~5% of the total fighter population. Probably much less than that but I wanted to be reasonable.That being said, shut the H up about your excuses and balance arguments and give the 95% of us left out in the cold the ability to play the game. I made my Guardian in EQ2 Beta. I re-made him on the first day on release. I will continue to play him.ANYBODY that thinks it is even BEGENNING to be OK for the tank to be anywhere near the top of the DPS parse is just childish.ANYBODY that thinks it is even BEGENNING to be OK for a tank to be even on the Heal parse is just childish.ANYBODY that thinks it's even BEGINNING to be OK for a tank to be one of the top PVP classes is just being childish.ANYBODY who wants all of the above just plays a SK and comes to the Guardian forums to try and keep it the way it currently is.

Bruener

04-06-2010, 02:43 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>BINGO!!!Everthing your saying about tank balance only applies to MT in a raid. That probably applies to ~5% of the total fighter population. Probably much less than that but I wanted to be reasonable. That is the % everybody rolled Guards for, or should have. I mean do people really roll a Guard in the expectation of being awesome at everything BUT what they are intended and designed for?That being said, shut the H up about your excuses and balance arguments and give the 95% of us left out in the cold the ability to play the game. I made my Guardian in EQ2 Beta. I re-made him on the first day on release. I will continue to play him. You will always be disappointed.ANYBODY that thinks it is even BEGENNING to be OK for the tank to be anywhere near the top of the DPS parse is just childish. Find better DPS by a long shot.ANYBODY that thinks it is even BEGENNING to be OK for a tank to be even on the Heal parse is just childish. Show me the heal parses please, I mean doing 1k HPS compared to what real healers do is laughable. Just think if they added up all the damage avoided from stoneskins on the heal parse, where do you think Guards would end up?ANYBODY that thinks it's even BEGINNING to be OK for a tank to be one of the top PVP classes is just being childish. People that want to PVP should go play a game that was designed for PVP...you know, there are tons of them out there that keep failing.ANYBODY who wants all of the above just plays a SK and comes to the Guardian forums to try and keep it the way it currently is. I play with all types of tanks. Our Guard when he goes DPS mode can put out numbers that are not that far off frmo what SKs can put out. Guard agro is a non-existent problem against any DPS classes.</blockquote>The question is what exactly is it you are trying to accomplish? This thread is about what a Guardians role is. Everybody but a handful of casual playing Guards know exactly what that role is and how well Guards are at it. If you are a said Guard that did not make a Guard to do what his intended role is than you are always going to be disappointed with the class. 1 guaranteed spot on a raid for a Guard. 2 spots for every other fighter.That being said back to the Producer letter and exactly what was said in it. The goal is to make every fighter viable in all aspects of the game...raiding/grouping/solo'ing. So, are Guards viable at solo? Yep. Every class can solo up in this game easily. Grouping. Yes again. Guards tank every instance no problem in the game. Raiding. Big yes there being the best MT tank in the game by a fair margin.So again, what are you looking for in a Guard? To be the best MT/OT/heroic tank/PVP tank/Solo class in the game?

Wasuna

04-06-2010, 03:21 PM

More crap from an SK. Your going to keep pushing your swamp land on anybody that you can lie/steal/cheat into buying it.The only thing I will agree on is that things are better in SF expansion. That being said, I guarantee you that a raid geared SK can tank any mob in the game that a Guardian can. I know of several of the leading edge raid guilds on my server use SK's for all of their progression raids. They have one MT and it's an SK and that is it. Just becasue your MT is a Guardian doesn't mean that it has to be. Guardians have no fixed roll and have no alternative to fall back onto.Being able to ALMOST DPS as much (while at the same time dropping 20-30% their avoidance compared to a crusader); and being able to Heal NONE AT ALL compared to the 1K HPS a SK can do (A Paladin can do that also I just don't have parses) --- Neither of these compensate a Guardian for having nothing that they are better at that is required or even desired.What is a Guardians role? It's to be a very good servicable tank that in the end will be outshined by a Crusader in just about every way.I still play my Guardian and I still have a great deal of fun in groups with my friends, but pickup groups are HARD to put together and I usually just switch to my Troubador. Guardians like to invite me to group for my de-hate song....

Yimway

04-06-2010, 04:21 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>BINGO!!!Everthing your saying about tank balance only applies to MT in a raid. That probably applies to ~5% of the total fighter population. Probably much less than that but I wanted to be reasonable. That is the % everybody rolled Guards for, or should have. I mean do people really roll a Guard in the expectation of being awesome at everything BUT what they are intended and designed for?</blockquote></blockquote>Bruener,I've checked, and well, no where on the class description does it say balanced for MT roley, for other tanking please see classes x,y,z.No arguement about balancing the class should be centered on the role, that as someone else pointed out, only a tiny minority of players in the class actually fulfill.That being said, Paladin and Monk are both nearly as effective at MT. The brawler strikethru 'immunity' while in defensive stance has some fairly interesting results. Particularly when I'm seeing monks with >70% mit.

RafaelSmith

04-06-2010, 04:28 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>BINGO!!!Everthing your saying about tank balance only applies to MT in a raid. That probably applies to ~5% of the total fighter population. Probably much less than that but I wanted to be reasonable. That is the % everybody rolled Guards for, or should have. I mean do people really roll a Guard in the expectation of being awesome at everything BUT what they are intended and designed for?</blockquote></blockquote>Bruener,I've checked, and well, no where on the class description does it say balanced for MT roley, for other tanking please see classes x,y,z.No arguement about balancing the class should be centered on the role, that as someone else pointed out, only a tiny minority of players in the class actually fulfill.That being said, Paladin and Monk are both nearly as effective at MT. The brawler strikethru 'immunity' while in defensive stance has some fairly interesting results. Particularly when I'm seeing monks with >70% mit.</blockquote>And I went and looked at the class description for SK.......it says they should never MT for a raid. =P

Wasuna

04-07-2010, 02:31 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>So again, what are you looking for in a Guard? To be the best MT/OT/heroic tank/PVP tank/Solo class in the game?</blockquote>I'm sorry, I just caught that comment. The SK already is the best MT/OT/Heroic Tank/Solo (tank) in the game. I want my Guardian to atleast be on average equal to the SK since that is what the player base in the game has come to expect.

Bruener

04-07-2010, 02:39 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>So again, what are you looking for in a Guard? To be the best MT/OT/heroic tank/PVP tank/Solo class in the game?</blockquote>I'm sorry, I just caught that comment. The SK already is the best MT/OT/Heroic Tank/Solo (tank) in the game. I want my Guardian to atleast be on average equal to the SK since that is what the player base in the game has come to expect.</blockquote>And this is shows exactly how little you understand about the current state of fighters in the game. You should really buy the SF xpac....

Landiin

04-07-2010, 05:34 PM

Yimway

04-07-2010, 06:38 PM

<cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>And this is shows exactly how little you understand about the current state of fighters in the game. You should really buy the SF xpac....</blockquote>ROFL you actually and truly think that guards are equal to SK or crusaders at that? I mean I really want to know, do you actually think this?</blockquote>It's a common belief of crusaders that the removal of the 'I win' button from their classes has made them worse than guards in heroic content.I've run into more crusaders with this belief than those without it.For these folks the removal of GS or HG has somehow made the classes too hard to play in difficult situations. I have no idea if Bruener is in that group, probably not, but as I said more of them are than not.I still play both SK and Guard, and its still pretty clear where the differences lie. Here is a 4 box I run: SK, Fury(pure dps spec), Illy, Defiler - SK parses 20k+ regularly in this group.Guard 4 box I run: Guard, Dirge, coercer, warden - Guard will maybe rarely break 10kDPS aside, survivability (and aggro) short of x4 content is still better on the SK.We can run spreadsheets on stats all day long, but in actual play testing the short term buffs and stoneskins on a guard pale in comparison to lifetaps on an SK. And aggro, no reason in even stating a comparison on this stat.

Xill

04-07-2010, 06:46 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>BINGO!!!Everthing your saying about tank balance only applies to MT in a raid. That probably applies to ~5% of the total fighter population. Probably much less than that but I wanted to be reasonable. That is the % everybody rolled Guards for, or should have. I mean do people really roll a Guard in the expectation of being awesome at everything BUT what they are intended and designed for?</blockquote></blockquote>Bruener,I've checked, and well, no where on the class description does it say balanced for MT roley, for other tanking please see classes x,y,z.No arguement about balancing the class should be centered on the role, that as someone else pointed out, only a tiny minority of players in the class actually fulfill.That being said, Paladin and Monk are both nearly as effective at MT. The brawler strikethru 'immunity' while in defensive stance has some fairly interesting results. Particularly when I'm seeing monks with >70% mit.</blockquote>And with all of the +mit gear this expac I see more monks approaching this. Definitely making them much more effective then they were. I have seen our monk OT grab a mob that killed the MT and tank it for a full minute and do it better.

Rahatmattata

04-08-2010, 01:27 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote> The goal is to make every fighter viable in all aspects of the game...raiding/grouping/solo'ing. So, are Guards viable at solo? Yep. Every class can solo up in this game easily.</blockquote><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=475370#5290331" target="_blank">Don't be stupid.</a> <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />

Kota

04-08-2010, 03:37 AM

Wasuna

04-08-2010, 12:31 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>So again, what are you looking for in a Guard? To be the best MT/OT/heroic tank/PVP tank/Solo class in the game?</blockquote>I'm sorry, I just caught that comment. The SK already is the best MT/OT/Heroic Tank/Solo (tank) in the game. I want my Guardian to atleast be on average equal to the SK since that is what the player base in the game has come to expect.</blockquote>And this is shows exactly how little you understand about the current state of fighters in the game. You should really buy the SF xpac....</blockquote>SK trying to sell more swamp land. What I read in your comment is:"Blah, Blah, Blah, I have a higher post count than you so I know more and everybody will pay attention to me and not change my SK, Blah Blah Blah!"I said before, the Guardian, properly buffed, MAY have a slight advantage in a HARD x4 raid. But that is MINIMAL and easily overcome without ANY significant changes at all. The most important point here is that even that tiny/minimal edge that can easily be adjusted for effects LESS THAN 5% of the Guardians in the game.What the heck are those us who are not raid main tanks suppose to do other than limp along like before and get furious at SK's on the forums that try to throw up smoke screens and sell people swamp land.

Bruener

04-08-2010, 12:50 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote> The goal is to make every fighter viable in all aspects of the game...raiding/grouping/solo'ing. So, are Guards viable at solo? Yep. Every class can solo up in this game easily.</blockquote><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=475370#5290331" target="_blank">Don't be stupid.</a> <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Do you even read what other people type? Are you going to tell me that Guards can't solo all the way up to level 90 in this game? Its not about one class being "better" at it. Its about making sure all classes are viable at it. Here let me give you the definition of viable since you don't understand it.... "capable of working, functioning, or developing adequately "Now are you still saying Guards are not viable at solo and heroic gameplay? I mean because I am sure there are tons of examples of Guards solo'ing all the way up to max level. Or every day a lot of Guards out there run heroic zones with buddies in this game.And Wasuna your middle paragraph is where you go completely wrong with the state of Guards in x4. The statement should look more like:"I said before, the Guardian, properly buffed, HAS a large advantage in a x4 raid, and the harder the content the more noticeable the advantage."That is what this whole post is about. That is the Guard role. To be the beefiest tank out there for taking those big hits. Its why those that do MT with their Guards enjoy playing them.

Rahatmattata

04-08-2010, 01:51 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its not about one class being "better" at it.</blockquote>Just admit you have no idea what balance is.

Bruener

04-08-2010, 02:15 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its not about one class being "better" at it.</blockquote>Just admit you have no idea what balance is.</blockquote>Yeah you caught me....Balance must have been in RoK according to you guys.Anyway good luck on your aim for OP'd again.

RafaelSmith

04-08-2010, 02:43 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its not about one class being "better" at it.</blockquote>Just admit you have no idea what balance is.</blockquote>Yeah you caught me....Balance must have been in RoK according to you guys.Anyway good luck on your aim for OP'd again.</blockquote>Nobody should be OP. If you say Guards were OP in RoK then fine they should have been "fixed".That does not however excuse the fact that SK is OP today. By OP I mean able to exceed the bounderies of what the archetype is suppose to be able to do relative to the other archetypes. When actually tanking, Fighters should not be competing with Wizards and Warlocks or Scouts for DPS...and they sure as hell shouldnt be doing it with a shield....they should at best compete with Healers. Fighter should have to work for aggro......beit from a single mob or multiples...yes that job should be eaiser for those AE tanks......but the price they should pay for being able to do that should be significant less surviveability. If a SK parses like or close to a Warlock then he should take the hits like a Warlock.......just like if a Guard were to gear up, duel wield or whataver and start parsing like low tier scouts then he should get smacked around just like a low tier scout.That the problem I see with balance.......what some give up for their 'advantage/nitch' is out of proportion to others.Again I am speaking about things outside of end-game progression raiding because that small % of the games content should not be a overwhelming factor in balance. As it stands today any of the 4 plates...and from what ive seen some brawlers can do the job of MT for those end-game mobs. What we need now is the same level of balance across all levels of play. Where you see Guards and SK able to reach similar DPS numbers in end-game raiding due to gear and optimal buffs..........average Guard in Cella group with friends does a fraction of what average joe SK would do with that same group in Cella.....the key being that both have more than sufficiant survivability to tank so all thats left is aggro and DPS. So that group picking a tank should pick the better one.......who do you think gets picked 100% of the time?I realize im just talking to a wall here cause you could care less how things are functioning outside of your little bubble.

Wasuna

04-08-2010, 04:02 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>"I said before, the Guardian, properly buffed, HAS a large advantage in a x4 raid, and the harder the content the more noticeable the advantage."</blockquote>B.S.! The best two raid forces on my server use SK's as MT.

Darkonx

04-08-2010, 05:01 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>"I said before, the Guardian, properly buffed, HAS a large advantage in a x4 raid, and the harder the content the more noticeable the advantage."</blockquote>B.S.! The best two raid forces on my server use SK's as MT.</blockquote>Solo:That post on the SK boards about soloing hordes of heroics is applicable for any tank with the gear I have. Ward proc neck/ear/dual rings/dual wrists/belt/bp.Group:Self-heals trump stoneskin on solo mobs due to the low amount of incoming damage per hit. Yes, crusaders will do more DPS than a Guardian on swarms of mobs. A Berserker however, will do more DPS than a crusader on the same encounters. (Assuming equal skill/gear, of course..) That being said, heroic content is mostly a joke.Raids:Guardians have far more survivability tools than an SK. Any raid working on mobs that are not 'farm status' will be better with a similarly skilled/geared guardian in comparison to an SK. Unless, of course, the mob has a DPS check, in which case you might want to sacrafice some of the guardians survivability (putting more stress on MT healers) in exchange for higher DPS via the SK. You can't really say that I'm wrong, because, I'm not.

Rahatmattata

04-08-2010, 07:02 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just admit you have no idea what balance is.</blockquote>Yeah you caught me....</blockquote>Good... was that so hard? Now sit down, shut your mouth and learn something champ.

Bruener

04-08-2010, 07:45 PM

Rahatmattata

04-08-2010, 11:53 PM

The only funny thing here is a shadowknight crying about guardians wanting to be OP. In case you haven't noticed, you are the one getting ripped on and laughed at here... This is the guardian board genious. The dumb thing is a lot of guards are fine where they are at and realize crusaders are doing things tanks shouldn't be able to do... which makes it harder to get groups/raid slots because guards are out-performed by some lame OP class in 99% of the game.

Wasuna

04-09-2010, 01:54 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>"I said before, the Guardian, properly buffed, HAS a large advantage in a x4 raid, and the harder the content the more noticeable the advantage."</blockquote>B.S.! The best two raid forces on my server use SK's as MT.</blockquote>Crappy server I guess.Gratz btw Rat-boy, or however it is u spell your name, on quoting somebody and deleting everything that makes the post relevant out of there. The only thing I will have to learn is the same few nobodies just refuse to learn how to play their class well while the people that actually know how to play the class are laughing in the background.</blockquote>Just becasue you wanted another point to be the focus doesn't mean you don't have to live with everything you said.As for the raid forces that use SK's. I'd hardely say they are on a crappy server for doing things different than you do. Statements like that just imply you have a very narrow mind. To be honest, that statement isn't going to surprise anybody on any of these forums.A small precieved bonus for using a Guardian as the MT in a raid and using that as balance in the game for fighters is a disservice for 95% of the Guardians in the game. Showing parses where the Guardian is the raid MT with all the appropriate buffs showing that they can parse ALMOST the same as the other fighters in the raid who do not have the benefit of ~15-20K dps from damage shiled type things isn't going to win any arguments.Swamp Land. I'm not buying it.

Yimway

04-09-2010, 02:19 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Balance must have been in RoK according to you guys.Anyway good luck on your aim for OP'd again.</blockquote>Nobody should be OP. If you say Guards were OP in RoK then fine they should have been "fixed".</blockquote>Just to ground this conversation a little bit.ONLY MT/Raid guards where OP in RoK. It was specificaly an ability on the myth that allowed both dps and survivability to be pushed out simultaneously.The class itself was balanced for 95% of the population in RoK, but the 5% made Bruener and others [Removed for Content] and now the raise this spectre of an arguement any chance they get.

Bruener

04-09-2010, 07:39 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>"I said before, the Guardian, properly buffed, HAS a large advantage in a x4 raid, and the harder the content the more noticeable the advantage."</blockquote>B.S.! The best two raid forces on my server use SK's as MT.</blockquote>Crappy server I guess.Gratz btw Rat-boy, or however it is u spell your name, on quoting somebody and deleting everything that makes the post relevant out of there. The only thing I will have to learn is the same few nobodies just refuse to learn how to play their class well while the people that actually know how to play the class are laughing in the background.</blockquote>Just becasue you wanted another point to be the focus doesn't mean you don't have to live with everything you said.As for the raid forces that use SK's. I'd hardely say they are on a crappy server for doing things different than you do. Statements like that just imply you have a very narrow mind. To be honest, that statement isn't going to surprise anybody on any of these forums.A small precieved bonus for using a Guardian as the MT in a raid and using that as balance in the game for fighters is a disservice for 95% of the Guardians in the game. Showing parses where the Guardian is the raid MT with all the appropriate buffs showing that they can parse ALMOST the same as the other fighters in the raid who do not have the benefit of ~15-20K dps from damage shiled type things isn't going to win any arguments.Swamp Land. I'm not buying it.</blockquote>Curious what 2 guilds you are actually talking about? Do they even kill hard mode stuff?

Lethe5683

04-12-2010, 02:51 AM

Lethe5683

04-12-2010, 02:57 AM

Yimway

04-12-2010, 02:30 PM

<cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cerithian wrote:</cite><blockquote>We can't take damage like other tanking classes.</blockquote>You have got to be kidding...</blockquote>Log into pvp and see if you disagree with him.The case is most easily demonstrated in that environment, but its still the case all around.All other tanks heal themselves, we all get to wear very similar gear, about the only thing guard has going for it is the ability to control exactly when we stoneskin, but vs anything other than very hard hitting ST encounters, the other tanks provide better results.</blockquote>No one gives a [Removed for Content] about pvp.</blockquote>I'd agree with you prior to SF, but now with BG's a much larger segment of the population does care about it.Personally, I think they've given too much healing to tank classes and it needs to be rolled back significantly. A berserker shouldn't be topping a heal parse, ever. An SK shouldn't be able to heal 4x their hp pool in a single fight. etc, etc.When other tanks get these types of bonuses, its easy for guards to feel left out and 'papery' in comparison in similar content.Yes I survive better than anyone else in the MT spot, but ya know, thats only about 20% of my play time. The rest of the time I'm a poor substitute for any other similarly geared tank class. Anyone playing the class who doesn't get the MT spot is behind the ball 100% of the time.

Bruener

04-12-2010, 03:46 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd agree with you prior to SF, but now with BG's a much larger segment of the population does care about it.Personally, I think they've given too much healing to tank classes and it needs to be rolled back significantly. A berserker shouldn't be topping a heal parse, ever. An SK shouldn't be able to heal 4x their hp pool in a single fight. etc, etc.When other tanks get these types of bonuses, its easy for guards to feel left out and 'papery' in comparison in similar content.Yes I survive better than anyone else in the MT spot, but ya know, thats only about 20% of my play time. The rest of the time I'm a poor substitute for any other similarly geared tank class. Anyone playing the class who doesn't get the MT spot is behind the ball 100% of the time.</blockquote>And again we are right back to the question asked over and over again. Why in the world would you roll up the tank designed for MT'ing when you were going to be playing the other styles of game-play much more?I mean I know I did not roll up my SK at launch aiming for the purpose of playing a MT in a raid because that is not at all what is advertised for the class. Everybody knew that Guards were going to be the best choice for MT on raids easily.Its kind of like the Enchanters that made their toons to fill in a DPS role and now are all made because their DPS is the same as the other utility classes....a ways below T1 DPS.So again, why would you make a class that you KNOW what their suited for, and than complain when they aren't as good at the other styles of game-play?

RafaelSmith

04-13-2010, 10:18 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd agree with you prior to SF, but now with BG's a much larger segment of the population does care about it.Personally, I think they've given too much healing to tank classes and it needs to be rolled back significantly. A berserker shouldn't be topping a heal parse, ever. An SK shouldn't be able to heal 4x their hp pool in a single fight. etc, etc.When other tanks get these types of bonuses, its easy for guards to feel left out and 'papery' in comparison in similar content.Yes I survive better than anyone else in the MT spot, but ya know, thats only about 20% of my play time. The rest of the time I'm a poor substitute for any other similarly geared tank class. Anyone playing the class who doesn't get the MT spot is behind the ball 100% of the time.</blockquote>And again we are right back to the question asked over and over again. Why in the world would you roll up the tank designed for MT'ing when you were going to be playing the other styles of game-play much more?I mean I know I did not roll up my SK at launch aiming for the purpose of playing a MT in a raid because that is not at all what is advertised for the class. Everybody knew that Guards were going to be the best choice for MT on raids easily.Its kind of like the Enchanters that made their toons to fill in a DPS role and now are all made because their DPS is the same as the other utility classes....a ways below T1 DPS.So again, why would you make a class that you KNOW what their suited for, and than complain when they aren't as good at the other styles of game-play?</blockquote>Could you please show me these class descriptions that said Guard was only designed for progression raid MT?

RafaelSmith

04-13-2010, 10:22 AM

As I recall the class descriptions described the "Style" by which a class would perform its purpose......nothing about only being useful (debatable) for a extreme small % of the games content.

Kota

04-13-2010, 03:42 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>As I recall the class descriptions described the "Style" by which a class would perform its purpose......nothing about only being useful (debatable) for a extreme small % of the games content. </blockquote>when the game was still in development, it was stated that all fighter classes would be able to tank. the website has changed a lot since then, but equality was implied. i have never seen any soe representative delegate mt, ot, or any other roles.

Grumpy_Warrior_01

04-13-2010, 05:47 PM

<cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>when the game was still in development, it was stated that all fighter classes would be able to tank. the website has changed a lot since then, but equality was implied. i have never seen any soe representative delegate mt, ot, or any other roles.</blockquote>And indeed all fighters were identical for the first 10 levels. In the original architecture, fighters leveled up and chose a path through the classes and subclasses, gradually evolving away from each other into their intended result. Somewhere along the way a lot of folks, leather fighters included, decided to equate that to "The end result of all six fighter classes was intended to be identical" which is absolutely, unequivocally inaccurate.

Rahatmattata

04-13-2010, 06:59 PM

I was under the impression that guards were the most defensive tank, the hardest to kill, when I rolled one. As has been said many times - the difference in defense vs dps/utility among tanks is [Removed for Content], and always has been. And yea, the only real point to playing a guardian now is if you have your heart set on being a raid MT... or if for some reason you just love the abilities a guardian has and the way it plays. That likely won't be changing any time soon. You aren't going to log into the game one day and see your patcher downloading, look at update notes and see, "Guardians should now be harder to kill," or "Crusaders have been brought back in line with other tanks." So, yea it's fun to argue on the forums about tank balance, but nothing is going to come of it.

Rahatmattata

04-13-2010, 07:04 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>BINGO!!!! By being the single best choice for one area it means they are not as good in the other areas. The other areas you have multiple classes competing for the same "spots".</blockquote>Viable Main tank spots (in no particular order) - Guardian, berserker, shadowknight, paladinViable Off tank spots (in no particular order) - Berserker, shadowknight, paladin, monk, bruiserLooks like berserkers, shadowknights, and paladins have no room to talk. Guardians, monks, and bruiser get 1 role in a raid while berserkers, shadowknights, and paladins can fill two roles. I'd go so far as to say brawlers would make better main tanks than guardians would off tanks.

Bruener

04-13-2010, 09:18 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>BINGO!!!! By being the single best choice for one area it means they are not as good in the other areas. The other areas you have multiple classes competing for the same "spots".</blockquote>Viable Main tank spots (in no particular order) - Guardian, berserker, shadowknight, paladinViable Off tank spots (in no particular order) - Berserker, shadowknight, paladin, monk, bruiserLooks like berserkers, shadowknights, and paladins have no room to talk. Guardians, monks, and bruiser get 1 role in a raid while berserkers, shadowknights, and paladins can fill two roles. I'd go so far as to say brawlers would make better main tanks than guardians would off tanks.</blockquote>See, that is your problem. You just don't seem to have a clue what is going on with the other classes. Something people are going to start to realize with Brawlers having just as high mit as plate tanks now, and way higher avoid is that they are extremely viable in both slots. Also there is no reason a Guard couldn't OT this entire xpac so far. Any large encounters are linked and a Guard can easily hold hate thru it. So to update your list, since it is about Viable in no specific order....Viable MT spots: Guard, Zerk, SK, Pal, Bruiser, MonkViable OT spots: Guard, Zerk, SK, Pal, Bruiser, MonkJust because a class can do it doesn't mean that they will be. 90% of the guilds will still use a Guard MT because they are hands down the best choice. So 1 fighter for 1 spot. That arguably leaves 5 fighters for the OT spots since nobody is going to deny that the other fighter classes are better suited for that spot than Guards. Most of the time you are talking about 1 MT, 2 OT spots in a raid....so 5 fighter classes for 2 spots.Of course if you want to go back to "viable" I mean we can talk all day about why every class is actually viable at both roles.

RafaelSmith

04-14-2010, 11:04 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>BINGO!!!! By being the single best choice for one area it means they are not as good in the other areas. The other areas you have multiple classes competing for the same "spots".</blockquote>Viable Main tank spots (in no particular order) - Guardian, berserker, shadowknight, paladinViable Off tank spots (in no particular order) - Berserker, shadowknight, paladin, monk, bruiserLooks like berserkers, shadowknights, and paladins have no room to talk. Guardians, monks, and bruiser get 1 role in a raid while berserkers, shadowknights, and paladins can fill two roles. I'd go so far as to say brawlers would make better main tanks than guardians would off tanks.</blockquote>See, that is your problem. You just don't seem to have a clue what is going on with the other classes. Something people are going to start to realize with Brawlers having just as high mit as plate tanks now, and way higher avoid is that they are extremely viable in both slots. Also there is no reason a Guard couldn't OT this entire xpac so far. Any large encounters are linked and a Guard can easily hold hate thru it. So to update your list, since it is about Viable in no specific order....Viable MT spots: Guard, Zerk, SK, Pal, Bruiser, MonkViable OT spots: Guard, Zerk, SK, Pal, Bruiser, MonkJust because a class can do it doesn't mean that they will be. 90% of the guilds will still use a Guard MT because they are hands down the best choice. So 1 fighter for 1 spot. That arguably leaves 5 fighters for the OT spots since nobody is going to deny that the other fighter classes are better suited for that spot than Guards. Most of the time you are talking about 1 MT, 2 OT spots in a raid....so 5 fighter classes for 2 spots.Of course if you want to go back to "viable" I mean we can talk all day about why every class is actually viable at both roles.</blockquote>Here we go again. How many times do we have to tell you that yes things are pretty well balanced in terms of fighters in raids?Your problem is that you forget there is a whole lot more to the game than top end raiding. The further and further you go down what I call the tiers of gameplay....progression raid -> easy raids -> hard heroic -> easy heroic -> etc, etc....the more and more the fighters become out of balance....its only at the very top end where Guards actually are the best choice. Guard goes from being best choice to being worst choice quickly...whereas SK pretty much stays best choice thru the entire spectrum of content.Ideally all 6 should be equal choices across the whole spectrum and the decision as to who serves what spot should boil down to gear and player not class.While some can infer that when it comes to raids certain classes were designed for certain spots....i.e MT/OT that is not how the classes should be balanced as a whole. There are more Guards out there playing the game that never raid than those that do....they should not be handicapped simply because somewhere Guards have a slight advantage in being raid MTs.

Rahatmattata

04-14-2010, 12:55 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are more Guards out there playing the game that never raid than those that do....they should not be handicapped simply because somewhere Guards have a slight advantage in being raid MTs.</blockquote>Especially where there are maybe.... 200 - 300 active raiding guilds in the entire game? I'd guess roughly half of them are using guardians as main tank and the other half uses another class. Hell, I'll give the benefit of the doubt and say there are 300 guardians that are main tanks for a raiding guild. I guess the other 6,324 guardians picked the wrong class.

RafaelSmith

04-14-2010, 03:44 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are more Guards out there playing the game that never raid than those that do....they should not be handicapped simply because somewhere Guards have a slight advantage in being raid MTs.</blockquote>Especially where there are maybe.... 200 - 300 active raiding guilds in the entire game? I'd guess roughly half of them are using guardians as main tank and the other half uses another class. Hell, I'll give the benefit of the doubt and say there are 300 guardians that are main tanks for a raiding guild. I guess the other 6,324 guardians picked the wrong class.</blockquote>..and all those SKs and SK alts you see around every corner wether they chose the class to raid or not are not handicapped because they are easy-mode ripping thru heroic content and also able to MT or OT for raids.Truth be told while I believe SK is able to do too much(crossing the bounderies of what the archetype is suppose to do) as a single class they at least are able to fill their role regardless of the content without facing any issues whatsover. All fighters should be like that....just without all the OPness.Sorry to single out SK but they just happen to be the prime example of a class being given too much. TBH most of the fighter classes are currently exceeding their purpose....Zerkers healing? SKs competing with scouts and mages for DPS? its just too much IMO.

Bruener

04-14-2010, 05:35 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are more Guards out there playing the game that never raid than those that do....they should not be handicapped simply because somewhere Guards have a slight advantage in being raid MTs.</blockquote>Especially where there are maybe.... 200 - 300 active raiding guilds in the entire game? I'd guess roughly half of them are using guardians as main tank and the other half uses another class. Hell, I'll give the benefit of the doubt and say there are 300 guardians that are main tanks for a raiding guild. I guess the other 6,324 guardians picked the wrong class.</blockquote>..and all those SKs and SK alts you see around every corner wether they chose the class to raid or not are not handicapped because they are easy-mode ripping thru heroic content and also able to MT or OT for raids.Truth be told while I believe SK is able to do too much(crossing the bounderies of what the archetype is suppose to do) as a single class they at least are able to fill their role regardless of the content without facing any issues whatsover. All fighters should be like that....just without all the OPness.Sorry to single out SK but they just happen to be the prime example of a class being given too much. TBH most of the fighter classes are currently exceeding their purpose....Zerkers healing? SKs competing with scouts and mages for DPS? its just too much IMO.</blockquote>Fact: Guards have np performing their role at the heroic level.

Aull

04-14-2010, 08:38 PM

It has been said before that no other fighter is best for new raid content than the guardian. After that zerks and crusaders fill in the mt position with the greatest of ease.Is that the only reason for guards to continue to be sub-par at the heroic level? Are all the guards abilities made to only shine in a raid situations if so then where does that leave them in heroic situations? If it is then guards need to be described as only raid material and nothing more.

RafaelSmith

04-15-2010, 04:32 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are more Guards out there playing the game that never raid than those that do....they should not be handicapped simply because somewhere Guards have a slight advantage in being raid MTs.</blockquote>Especially where there are maybe.... 200 - 300 active raiding guilds in the entire game? I'd guess roughly half of them are using guardians as main tank and the other half uses another class. Hell, I'll give the benefit of the doubt and say there are 300 guardians that are main tanks for a raiding guild. I guess the other 6,324 guardians picked the wrong class.</blockquote>..and all those SKs and SK alts you see around every corner wether they chose the class to raid or not are not handicapped because they are easy-mode ripping thru heroic content and also able to MT or OT for raids.Truth be told while I believe SK is able to do too much(crossing the bounderies of what the archetype is suppose to do) as a single class they at least are able to fill their role regardless of the content without facing any issues whatsover. All fighters should be like that....just without all the OPness.Sorry to single out SK but they just happen to be the prime example of a class being given too much. TBH most of the fighter classes are currently exceeding their purpose....Zerkers healing? SKs competing with scouts and mages for DPS? its just too much IMO.</blockquote>Fact: Guards have np performing their role at the heroic level.</blockquote>True but the burdon on the group is much greater....and the group gains nothing for it.The problem as I see it is that a Guard offers absolutely nothing to a group ...there is nothing out there heroic wise wher e a Guard has something that gives him a edge over the others. By contrast I have seen several raid encounters where a Crusader actually provides an advantage over a Guard.....even first time kills.Even gear doesnt help at those levels because a much lesser geared Crusader will still be an better MT for a instance than a Guard. In fact things get even more backass the lower you get. I recall running TSO instances with SKs that barely had MC quality gear and they still tanked and held aggro with ease. No Guard with a brain would even attempt to run most TSO instances with that level of gear.I am not saying that non-raid Guards are sitting on the bench and not running instances....they are but only when their grouped with friends or when the group could not find another fighter type.While I dont really play my Guard seriously anymore I do use him to tank for friends and such I do not have to deal with the headaches because the group understands that grouping with a Guard is gonna slower...require more work on their part and be more stressful for the healer but they are ok with that.On my server there is a never ending supply of SKs tanking for PuGs........I cant recall the last time I saw a Guard tanking or LFG for a PuG.

Yimway

04-16-2010, 12:29 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry to single out SK but they just happen to be the prime example of a class being given too much. TBH most of the fighter classes are currently exceeding their purpose....Zerkers healing? SKs competing with scouts and mages for DPS? its just too much IMO.</blockquote>Fact: Guards have np performing their role at the heroic level.</blockquote>However would you disagree that tanks of equal gear and skill, a crusader has better tools for success at heroic level than a guard? The example is bet observed compairing the various plate tanks wearing only MC gear against instanced content. The guard rates last in survivability, dps, and aggro control for the vast majority of T8 and T9 heroic instaned content.My SK will easily heal himself for 3-4x his hp pool in a reasonable sized pull in heroic content. The amount of delta in the incoming damage received between my sk and guard isn't 3-4x their hitpoints. So yes, an sk has more survivability in most instance content than a guard does. So does a pally, and zerker as well.I'm not even sure how anyone who has played all 4 tanks could argue otherwise.Certainly my geared guard has more survivability vs a single x4 mob. As it offers a single target with spike damage to be soaked up. The issue comes down to the survivability tools guards are given do not pan out very effective in heroic content when compaired to the tools given other classes.I personally feel the best sollution to this issue is to provide the class a stacking mitigation buff that is increased by the number of mobs hitting on the tank. As our survivability tools do not scale into heroic instance content in the same way that other tanks do.

Darkonx

04-20-2010, 08:04 PM

All tanks are able to do everything. Tanks are currently more balanced than they EVER have been in the past. Why ask for more changes? A solo healer is more than able to heal any tank through any instance. Guardians threat generation was a problem last expansion, now they have improved moderation, groupwide dehate. Guardians are inferior for heroic content, but superior for raid content, as a tank. That is how the game has been since T5, excluding ROK, where Guardians were the #1 DPS, #1 Threat, #1 Defensive tank in the entire game, bar none.

Rahatmattata

04-21-2010, 01:04 PM

What's with the shadowknights always comin here trollin our stuffs? It's not like guards are all up in the SK boards.

Bruener

04-21-2010, 03:22 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>What's with the shadowknights always comin here trollin our stuffs? It's not like guards are all up in the SK boards.</blockquote>Plenty of Guards post in the SK forums. And more importantly some Guards find it extremely necessary to post in the General Fighter Forums about their imaginary woes while calling for nerfs to SKs.A few of us, including some of your fellow Guards, are really sick of it since most of the time its a bunch of rubbish. Just like this very post where yet another person that can't figure out this simple game and how to make their toon work the best comes here and complains while pointing at other classes that even if they decided to play them they would probably fail at as well.

Rahatmattata

04-21-2010, 04:08 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>A few of us, including some of your fellow Guards, are really sick of it since most of the time its a bunch of rubbish.</blockquote>A few maybe. One, maybe two guardians that tank raids and are probably the best geared character in the entire guild have no problem and agree with you on the forums. The other one or two people that agree with you (that aren't shadowknights) don't even play a guardian, and probably never have.I have tanked the hole with my girlfriend's shadowknight and it was easy. Yes, it's an easy zone, but I have played a SK in SF wearing mostly TSO T2 gear and like 170 something AAs, and there was no special skills required or special group setups needed. Have you ever played a guardian higher than level 20?If crusaders had to wear leather, it would be closer to balance than we are now.

dr4gonUK

04-22-2010, 12:14 PM

A good guild will have all fighter classes availble to raid.Guardian has the edge on survivability over all the tanks against the hardest content, but is redundant on farm mobs when killing the mob asap is the prio.SOE has forced me to have dps and tank role and i am not really complaining.Dual weilding 6sec delay is good dps.So our role is to tank and dps.With brig,mystic,coer,dirge i have parsed 20-30k+ in many different zones, heroic and raid. So potential for dps is there.No other ftr class can out-hp or out-mit me. In tank spec i can get my avoidance to 78% ( with raid food&drink ). So our tankability isnt in question.The only drawback about guard is the support they need to shine. But most of that can be compensated for with adorns/aa to some degree.I have noticed when tanking on my sk alt that they have a lot less tools than guard to keep their group alive(sent,sentry,mod,sustain).

Landiin

04-22-2010, 12:50 PM

<cite>Tanx@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have noticed when tanking on my sk alt that they have a lot less tools than guard to keep their group alive(sent,sentry,mod,sustain).</blockquote>Because they can never lose agro unless they just can't play...

RafaelSmith

04-22-2010, 01:42 PM

<cite>Tanx@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have noticed when tanking on my sk alt that they have a lot less tools than guard to keep their group alive(sent,sentry,mod,sustain).</blockquote>Thats because they dont need such tools. A SK that loses aggro is simply a really really bad player or has a broken keyboard.

EasternKing

04-23-2010, 08:01 AM

So i decided to finally read this thread, what a waste of time.Guards have been the MT of EQ2T5 : CheckT6 : checkT7 : CheckT7b : CheckT8 : CheckT8b : CheckT9 : Checkany guardian claiming it doesnt say guards are supposed to be MT Tanks is beyond redemption.Guards are and have always been the Tank that stands in front of the biggest most nasty raid mobs and eats its damage output for breakfast. they have always done this, they still do this now.I have just benched my end game geared SK to go back to my Guard, the class i played from T5 till Eof when i swapped to Brigand, i played an SK for 6months of TSO, thats it, and now i am back on my Guard.~I can tank heroic zones without needing dirge/coercer/troub in group with end game geared sorcs and summoners, and hold aggro just fine,~I can put up average parses of 18k on groups of trash mobs in said heroic zones with a chanter and bard in the group,~I can raid tank just fine, and parse 18-20k dps while doing it.Guards are fine, it makes me sick to see people like the ones in this thread crying, Guards have never ever had it better than they do now, never, and i have played one since launch. even when i switched to a Brigand i still played a guard for another guild on a diff server, even when i played my SK i STILL played a Guardian.Seriously if you dont enjoy the class, then reroll, or learn to play better, this thread is nothing but an embarassment to the guardian class as a whole, way to appear like whiny crying brawlers guys, i mean i expect to see whine threads in their section, not this one.

Wasuna

04-23-2010, 12:37 PM

<cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote>So i decided to finally read this thread, what a waste of time.Guards have been the MT of EQ2T5 : CheckT6 : checkT7 : CheckT7b : CheckT8 : CheckT8b : CheckT9 : Checkany guardian claiming it doesnt say guards are supposed to be MT Tanks is beyond redemption.Guards are and have always been the Tank that stands in front of the biggest most nasty raid mobs and eats its damage output for breakfast. they have always done this, they still do this now.I have just benched my end game geared SK to go back to my Guard, the class i played from T5 till Eof when i swapped to Brigand, i played an SK for 6months of TSO, thats it, and now i am back on my Guard.~I can tank heroic zones without needing dirge/coercer/troub in group with end game geared sorcs and summoners, and hold aggro just fine,~I can put up average parses of 18k on groups of trash mobs in said heroic zones with a chanter and bard in the group,~I can raid tank just fine, and parse 18-20k dps while doing it.Guards are fine, it makes me sick to see people like the ones in this thread crying, Guards have never ever had it better than they do now, never, and i have played one since launch. even when i switched to a Brigand i still played a guard for another guild on a diff server, even when i played my SK i STILL played a Guardian.Seriously if you dont enjoy the class, then reroll, or learn to play better, this thread is nothing but an embarassment to the guardian class as a whole, way to appear like whiny crying brawlers guys, i mean i expect to see whine threads in their section, not this one.</blockquote>Your just wrong. The best raid force on my server uses a SK as MT. It has in the last 2 years that I have known them. The raid force that I have raided with a bit in SF uses an SK. Your statements are what you believe to be true. My statements is what I see being used day in and day out.I challenge you as a Guardian to have two soercers in group. As a scrub T3 equipped Guardian I can hold agro on any single T1 DPS with moderate and group moderate. Put in a second T1 DPS and you are screwed. Heaven help you if you have two Warlocks! Your using some form of snap agro tool in every fight and have to slow pulls down to wait for them to come back up. It's how Guardians are built so don't try and tell me that your special and can do it.The problem is I enjoy the class terribly. I played a Guardian in EQ2 Beta and created the same Guardian on the first day of Release. I play that Guardian today. I also have a 90 troubador and I see exactly what the differences are in terms of tanking abilities in Heroic content. I know how to play and I like the concept of the class. I don't mind the low DPS and when I'm groued with classes that buff a lot I make sure the special buffs are going to the DPS classes as long as I can hold agro. Assassins get Battle Cry and Warlockes get UT.. etc.Guardians are NOT fine. We are better (once we get acces to the SF AA's) than we were in TSO by a long shot. We are not comparable to any Crusader in Heroic content. And, to be very clear, Heroic content is 95% of this game so it IS where the balance needs to take place. Sony created this imbalance so they need to make sure it works for all levels of game play. It's not to much to expect a balanced system in a form of entertainment I pay to enjoy.

Rahatmattata

04-23-2010, 12:46 PM

<cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote>So i decided to finally read this thread, what a waste of time.</blockquote>Yes, guards are fine and can tank anything in the game. Thanks Captain Obvious. Gratz on completely failing to understand the problem. I'd fill you in on why tanks are not balanced, but I've already taken 20 seconds of my day and given it to some scrub on the internetz, and I'm 95% sure you would be too dumb to see other points of view anyway.

Carthr

04-23-2010, 12:57 PM

Gratz on pulling 18-20k, while SK's in the MT group are pulling 30-40k.. Attaboi

EasternKing

04-23-2010, 01:30 PM

<cite>Carthrax wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gratz on pulling 18-20k, while SK's in the MT group are pulling 30-40k.. Attaboi</blockquote>Wanna show me some parses where SK are pulling 30-40k single target dps? id love to see them.

EasternKing

04-23-2010, 01:33 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote>So i decided to finally read this thread, what a waste of time.Guards have been the MT of EQ2T5 : CheckT6 : checkT7 : CheckT7b : CheckT8 : CheckT8b : CheckT9 : Checkany guardian claiming it doesnt say guards are supposed to be MT Tanks is beyond redemption.Guards are and have always been the Tank that stands in front of the biggest most nasty raid mobs and eats its damage output for breakfast. they have always done this, they still do this now.I have just benched my end game geared SK to go back to my Guard, the class i played from T5 till Eof when i swapped to Brigand, i played an SK for 6months of TSO, thats it, and now i am back on my Guard.~I can tank heroic zones without needing dirge/coercer/troub in group with end game geared sorcs and summoners, and hold aggro just fine,~I can put up average parses of 18k on groups of trash mobs in said heroic zones with a chanter and bard in the group,~I can raid tank just fine, and parse 18-20k dps while doing it.Guards are fine, it makes me sick to see people like the ones in this thread crying, Guards have never ever had it better than they do now, never, and i have played one since launch. even when i switched to a Brigand i still played a guard for another guild on a diff server, even when i played my SK i STILL played a Guardian.Seriously if you dont enjoy the class, then reroll, or learn to play better, this thread is nothing but an embarassment to the guardian class as a whole, way to appear like whiny crying brawlers guys, i mean i expect to see whine threads in their section, not this one.</blockquote>Your just wrong. The best raid force on my server uses a SK as MT. It has in the last 2 years that I have known them. The raid force that I have raided with a bit in SF uses an SK. Your statements are what you believe to be true. My statements is what I see being used day in and day out.I challenge you as a Guardian to have two soercers in group. As a scrub T3 equipped Guardian I can hold agro on any single T1 DPS with moderate and group moderate. Put in a second T1 DPS and you are screwed. Heaven help you if you have two Warlocks! Your using some form of snap agro tool in every fight and have to slow pulls down to wait for them to come back up. It's how Guardians are built so don't try and tell me that your special and can do it.The problem is I enjoy the class terribly. I played a Guardian in EQ2 Beta and created the same Guardian on the first day of Release. I play that Guardian today. I also have a 90 troubador and I see exactly what the differences are in terms of tanking abilities in Heroic content. I know how to play and I like the concept of the class. I don't mind the low DPS and when I'm groued with classes that buff a lot I make sure the special buffs are going to the DPS classes as long as I can hold agro. Assassins get Battle Cry and Warlockes get UT.. etc.Guardians are NOT fine. We are better (once we get acces to the SF AA's) than we were in TSO by a long shot. We are not comparable to any Crusader in Heroic content. And, to be very clear, Heroic content is 95% of this game so it IS where the balance needs to take place. Sony created this imbalance so they need to make sure it works for all levels of game play. It's not to much to expect a balanced system in a form of entertainment I pay to enjoy.</blockquote>You sound like a brawler.Guards are not supposed to be the be all end all heroic tanks, thats for the other tanks. and seriously if you struggle to hold aggro in a heroic zone on any class you chose to tank with, you have more problems than can be helped than with class tweaks.And which top end guild uses a SK mt and has done for 2 years? id love to know that as well.you go check each guild on each server and what they killed and what tanks they have on the roster, you show me these huge percentages of guilds with no Guard MT in them, and i accept there might be an issue.

EasternKing

04-23-2010, 01:39 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote>So i decided to finally read this thread, what a waste of time.</blockquote>Yes, guards are fine and can tank anything in the game. Thanks Captain Obvious. Gratz on completely failing to understand the problem. I'd fill you in on why tanks are not balanced, but I've already taken 20 seconds of my day and given it to some scrub on the internetz, and I'm 95% sure you would be too dumb to see other points of view anyway.</blockquote>i have read your pathetic reasons why you and the other subpar players feel there are issues between tanks, i dont agree, i dont see them, i dont experiance them, i dont know anyone else that does either.Guards can tank Heroic and raidZerks can tank heroic and raidSK's an tank heroic and raidPaladins can tank heroic and raidMonks can tank heroic and raidBruisers can tank heroic and raidSorry where is this huge massive tank imbalance? all 6 fighters can tank both heroic content and raid content, for the first time ever in eq2 all of them can do it with ease, and what all of a sudden the subpar guards are out crying all over the forums like brawlers because you arent they n01 choice in every situation? cry more.

Bruener

04-23-2010, 01:51 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guardians are NOT fine. We are better (once we get acces to the SF AA's) than we were in TSO by a long shot. We are not comparable to any Crusader in Heroic content. And, to be very clear, Heroic content is 95% of this game so it IS where the balance needs to take place. Sony created this imbalance so they need to make sure it works for all levels of game play. It's not to much to expect a balanced system in a form of entertainment I pay to enjoy.</blockquote>Actually there is probably much more solo content than there is heroic content in this game? Does that mean all classes should be balanced around how well they solo? Or is just the fact that every class can perform the role easy enough mean it is alright? Imagine if Guards solo'd as well as sorcerors....imagine how imbalanced they would be in heroic and raid content than.....Its the same deal with heroic content. Every class can perform their role in heroic content easy. So easily that some classes can actually perform cross roles. You know like every heroic instance can probably be tanked by any class. Or some zones might not even need a healer for the most part. If you go about making sure every class is completely balanced at this point in the game though they will be OP'd at the heroic level. Like if Guards could pull as many mobs as Crusaders and DPS as much n heroic content why would anybody even use any other tank class at the raid level at all....you would just load up on a few Guards and go.So when asking for "balance" on content that you can easily perform your role in try and think about what it could cause in all the other areas of game play...especially in the area that is actually challenging.That being said going back to tweaks that were brought up in beta. Make Recapture a group wide AE hate position decreaser for all engaged mobs in addition to the increase on other fighters.

Captain Apple Darkberry

04-23-2010, 02:04 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fact: Guards have np performing their role at the heroic level.</blockquote>Fact: SK's have np exceeding their role at the heroic level.I rolled an SK and leveled her up to 90 to see what it was about...the OP'd ness of SK's nearly defies description. They are not just a different side of the same archtype, they break the mold. I truly cannot fathom how someone can play an SK and not think they are stupidly overpowered.Now back to your regularly scheduled trolling, misdirection, and outright lies by SK's trying to convince everyone that all is well...P.S.: I love my SK...she feels like I just plugged in a cheat activation for god mode.

Landiin

04-23-2010, 02:08 PM

I see Bruener found them a soulmate. I didn't think any one could play the tool roll as good as Bruener could but this easternking person has him beat for sure. Two SK QQing about how guards are find and SK are not OP... Its getting better and better in here.

Wasuna

04-23-2010, 02:24 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually there is probably much more solo content than there is heroic content in this game? Does that mean all classes should be balanced around how well they solo? Or is just the fact that every class can perform the role easy enough mean it is alright? Imagine if Guards solo'd as well as sorcerors....imagine how imbalanced they would be in heroic and raid content than.....</blockquote>As a person that their primary charachter is a Shadowknight.. are you SURE you want to bring up soloing? I want to be 100% sure that YOU want to add that to this discussion.Please.. let me know if you want to discuss the soloability of the fighter classes as part of the balance for them...I almost never solo other than blasting through the quests to progress through the various expansions and story lines. Therefore I didn't think it really applied to this discussion. If YOU think differently I'm happy to add it to the discussion.Please, let me know and I can amend some things I have said earlier.

Wasuna

04-23-2010, 02:33 PM

<cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>You sound like a brawler.</blockquote>Guards are not supposed to be the be all end all heroic tanks, thats for the other tanks. and seriously if you struggle to hold aggro in a heroic zone on any class you chose to tank with, you have more problems than can be helped than with class tweaks.And which top end guild uses a SK mt and has done for 2 years? id love to know that as well.you go check each guild on each server and what they killed and what tanks they have on the roster, you show me these huge percentages of guilds with no Guard MT in them, and i accept there might be an issue.</blockquote>Brawler eh? I guess you didn't read the post then.I don't want to be the end all of tanks. I wanted a nerf to Defense back at level 50. Nothing could touch me then.. nothing. That being said, I want to be even. I'm not even and that is a fact.Even can be a variance in abilities and styles that allow me to accomplish the same basic task. That would mean I'd excel at certin things and be behind in others which in the end would achieve overall balance. Right now, in Heroic content, I can do my job OK but I excel at nothing compared to the standard that Sony has introduced to the game. In some areas I'm kind of close. In other areas I'm so far behind that it's laughable that anybody would even try to dispute it. Guardians are not balanced properly.Also, no matter what your narrow mind thinks, raiding might be the end game, but most don't shoot for the end game. The fact that all of your friends are raiders only means you raid and only really interact with other raiders. Try doing a /who all and seeing how many of the names in the 100 that come up that you actually know and have grouped with.

Rahatmattata

04-23-2010, 03:54 PM

<cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote>i have read your pathetic reasons why you and the other subpar players feel there are issues between tanks, i dont agree, i dont see them, i dont experiance them, i dont know anyone else that does either.So basically you either only know like 3 people... you never play with crusaders unless they suck balls... or you have the mental capacity of a zit on your taint. Gotchya.</blockquote>

Landiin

04-23-2010, 07:53 PM

Bruener

04-23-2010, 09:45 PM

<cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote>i have read your pathetic reasons why you and the other subpar players feel there are issues between tanks, i dont agree, i dont see them, i dont experiance them, i dont know anyone else that does either.So basically you either only know like 3 people... you never play with crusaders unless they suck balls... or you have the mental capacity of a zit on your taint. Gotchya.</blockquote></blockquote>Easternegg plays a SK Rah...</blockquote>Except he plays a Guard as his main.....

EasternKing

04-23-2010, 10:09 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote>i have read your pathetic reasons why you and the other subpar players feel there are issues between tanks, i dont agree, i dont see them, i dont experiance them, i dont know anyone else that does either.So basically you either only know like 3 people... you never play with crusaders unless they suck balls... or you have the mental capacity of a zit on your taint. Gotchya.</blockquote></blockquote><a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/Lucan%20DLere/Denyzen/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...0DLere/Denyzen/</a>That is my Alt, all that gear was gotten in TSOIf you think Stonestrong or Trumak are suck balls you are a [Removed for Content], period.you clearly have no clue 1 : what you are talking about. 2 : who you are talking to. 3: about the game as it stands.

Rahatmattata

04-24-2010, 07:58 PM

You're right, I have no idea who you are or who rolls in the Easterbunny posse. I think you have more than sufficiently proven you have no idea how the game works, and are incapable of learning.

Darkonx

04-24-2010, 08:57 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're right, I have no idea who you are or who rolls in the Easterbunny posse. I think you have more than sufficiently proven you have no idea how the game works, and are incapable of learning.</blockquote>Eastern is Naggash. If you don't know Stonestrong or Trumak, then you are kind of out of touch with the top end players. Ditto if you don't know Naggash. You should also probably know who I am. That being said, I have complete faith that you don't try to min/max, and as such, don't really care. But I might ask, why are you disputing that a guardians role is to maintank raids, if you don't care about said raids?

steelbadger

04-25-2010, 06:59 AM

<cite>Darkonx@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're right, I have no idea who you are or who rolls in the Easterbunny posse. I think you have more than sufficiently proven you have no idea how the game works, and are incapable of learning.</blockquote>Eastern is Naggash. If you don't know Stonestrong or Trumak, then you are kind of out of touch with the top end players. Ditto if you don't know Naggash. You should also probably know who I am. That being said, I have complete faith that you don't try to min/max, and as such, don't really care. But I might ask, why are you disputing that a guardians role is to maintank raids, if you don't care about said raids?</blockquote>Urm. If we're playing that game...You're Darkonx, you're in Strike. That name doesn't really need much introduction. Strike uses a Shadowknight and Paladin as tanks. You have no Guardian.Stonestrong, a very good raid Guardian who has, I believe, quit.Naggash, a long time Guardian who actually used to play on my server, generally good player. Raid offtank is a Paladin, no Shadowknight mains in guildTrumak, one of the best if not the best tank players around. Used to play a Guardian, now plays an SK.Me? I'm a scrub casual raider and make no bones about it. If you wanna point and laugh I'm a Guardian called Squitch, in a Guild called Fate on a server called Runnyeye. We raid 2 times a week, or try to, we've had issues with signups recently. We have no raiding Shadowknight, only a Paladin. I like spreadsheets, perhaps a little too much.Now all that is pretty immaterial, but since you wanted to go there we did. It really has no bearing on the discussion at all but at least the people who don't pay much attention to the movers and shakers can see who's who.Now, really I've not once suggested that Guards are in need of a buff, it's the last thing I want. The game is already boringly easy, I have no desire to make it more of a snoozefest than it already is. However, as someone who does care about their character and min-maxes to an extent most people would consider excess I must admit to finding it somewhat frustrating that a Crusader can retain more survivability than me while at the same time doing more DPS, in all areas except at the absolute peak of survivability, where the Crusader drops off.The only reason I feel my Guardian is MT is because I'm a worse choice of OT than the Paladin. Not because my Guardian is a better choice of MT. Player ability aside, I'd probably be a better tank for my guild if I was playing a Paladin/SK that was geared to the same level as my Guardian.EDIT: The difference may be small, but it's there. Just a change to Knights Stance to force crusaders into making a survivability trade-off for DW-Style dps numbers would fix my problem. That's all.

Rahatmattata

04-25-2010, 11:57 AM

<cite>Darkonx@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're right, I have no idea who you are or who rolls in the Easterbunny posse. I think you have more than sufficiently proven you have no idea how the game works, and are incapable of learning.</blockquote>Eastern is Naggash. If you don't know Stonestrong or Trumak, then you are kind of out of touch with the top end players. Ditto if you don't know Naggash. You should also probably know who I am. That being said, I have complete faith that you don't try to min/max, and as such, don't really care. But I might ask, why are you disputing that a guardians role is to maintank raids, if you don't care about said raids?</blockquote>Sorry, I don't know who you are either. I select gear and AA to maximize defense while being able to hold aggro. It's a balancing act, not min/maxing. I'm not even sure you know what min/maxing means. It's when you compltely sacrifice one stat to maximize another stat. No tank worth a [Removed for Content] is min/maxing offense/defense, unless he has access to gear that has sufficient minimum stats to get the job done without being a huge burden on the rest of the players. On trivial content I go as offensive as my gear/aa selection allow. I don't know who the best geared tanks are, what servers they play on, what their names are, or even what guilds are the top raiding guilds. I simply don't care what other guilds do in instances. If there was some content I had to compete with other guilds to kill, I might care what the guilds do... at least on my server anyway.Too many people think because they have some fabled lewtz they must know something about game design. I can see with my own eyes how fighter classes perform in all apects of gameplay with various levels of gear from level 1 all the way to 90. I'm not going to agree with some random guy on some internet forums just because he might have another 3k hp and 5% mit than me. Especially, when he can't see passed his own little crew and has an extremely narrow point of view.I haven't disputed that a guardian's role is to main tank raids... and I have never said I don't care about raiding, because I do. Not sure [Removed for Content] you are thinking. Guardians have other rolls besides tanking epic mobs, and this is something some of you either can't grasp, or just disagree with entirely. Regardless, I hate to break the news to ya but a paladin can stand up almost equal with guardians when tanking epic mobs. And completely smoke guardians as off-tanks, tanking heroic mobs, soloing, and pvp. That is just one example of imbalance, and only at level 90 since the majority of you could give a sht less about levels 1-89. Hell, a lot of you could care less about any content unless it's something that might drop a shiny you want.

Landiin

04-25-2010, 12:48 PM

I could careless who he is, he is still a tool and I could of sworn he said he switch his main to an SK /shrug not gonna go back and dig through the post.Tanking raids with top end players, top end gear and people all mastered out is easy mode. I've tanked for the number one guild on our server back in the day and with all the masters, gear and people who know how to play their class it is a breeze to tank for something like this. Since I quit and come back and have been tanking for more casual guilds it is 10 times harder. Your missing buffs, gear, key classes and quality players. Tanking in that enviroment is harder than it is tanking for a raid that has the perfect raid. So sorry; people who tank for these types of raiding guilds generally are better tanks and have a better understanding of the shortcomings of said class then the people who tank for high end raid guilds that has the best in most cases. Not including myself in that because we all know i am s scrub.

Darkonx

04-26-2010, 03:36 AM

<cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I could careless who he is, he is still a tool and I could of sworn he said he switch his main to an SK /shrug not gonna go back and dig through the post.Tanking raids with top end players, top end gear and people all mastered out is easy mode. I've tanked for the number one guild on our server back in the day and with all the masters, gear and people who know how to play their class it is a breeze to tank for something like this. Since I quit and come back and have been tanking for more casual guilds it is 10 times harder. Your missing buffs, gear, key classes and quality players. Tanking in that enviroment is harder than it is tanking for a raid that has the perfect raid. So sorry; people who tank for these types of raiding guilds generally are better tanks and have a better understanding of the shortcomings of said class then the people who tank for high end raid guilds that has the best in most cases. Not including myself in that because we all know i am s scrub.</blockquote>The statements in red, I assume, were jokes.

Landiin

04-26-2010, 11:15 AM

No joke at all. When you have all the right classes with all masters, it makes every one jobs easy. Many casual raiding guilds have none of these luxuries. You try tanking for a raid with out a dirge and/or coercer and maybe only a sin or swash for hate. It isn't easy on the tank or the DPS because they have to hold back and that leads to making it hard on the healers because they are having to heal for a longer time frame.Thats just one example of not having all the right components to a raid. Missing regin, missing healers or poor healer, no real DPS. All this is an every day thing for casual guilds things full time raid guild don't have to deal with.

Raahl

04-26-2010, 12:16 PM

Just resubsribed, All this Guardian happy talk really makes me want to play my Guardian. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Not!If Wasuna and Gaylon say it's so, I believe them. They have been here since the beginning and I trust their assessment of the Guardian class.So, Solo'ing is going to be a pain. Guess I'll grind to 90 and get the exp bonus for my other characters.

Rahatmattata

04-26-2010, 01:12 PM

Don't get too discouraged, guardians can tank fine. If you can filter out all the flaming and telling each other "you suck", the discussion in this thread (and dozens others) is basically about balance. It's not so much guardians suck, it's just that other classes do it better in the vast majority of the game. If you really don't enjoy your guard you could just betray and try zerker for a while.Basically if you are good at playing eq2 and tanking... no matter how good your gear is or what buffs you get in a raid/group, you could do more with a paladin in your hands.

Wasuna

04-26-2010, 02:43 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just resubsribed, All this Guardian happy talk really makes me want to play my Guardian. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> Not!If Wasuna and Gaylon say it's so, I believe them. They have been here since the beginning and I trust their assessment of the Guardian class.So, Solo'ing is going to be a pain. Guess I'll grind to 90 and get the exp bonus for my other characters.</blockquote>These long threads get all jumbled even before breuner gets involved with his propaganda. Let me summarize for you:1. The expansion has made things much easier on Guardians. That means you must get level 81 and get the Group Moderate and the Taunt on reversal AA's. Once you have those then you can generally hold agro nicely on a group with 3 DPS classes as long as you have at least One (1) form of real hate transfer. The wizard one is nice but basically useless. You need one of the following: Dirge, Coercer, Assassin, Swashbuckler. Troubadors are nice also but you have less control over the agro with them.2. Unless you are at the very top end of raiding and the raiding gear that comes with it you will NEVER approach the DPS an equally geared crusdaer will do. No matter what Breuner says, this is 100% true. Digg tried to show us he could do as much as a SK could but in the end I am persoanlly sure that he can't. He can sure do some nice DPS for a Guardian though.3. The game is reasonably balanced for raid geared people. That is all. The lower you go down on the gear food chain the further apart the fighters get. It's really sad that SOE can't do better than that but it's the case.So, if your a level 80 Guardian already and quit because you hate TSO so bad it made blood vessels pop in your head then good news, things are much better. Come back, run through the solo quests in the expansion and get level 86-87 and 20-30 more AA's (Put 10-20% exp towards AA.. makes it much easier). Then you'll have group moderate, reversal hate proc and some other stuff. Then start doing some Hole groups, work on your faction and figure out who needs Moderate and how much agro your gear allows for and stuff. Once you hit 89'ish you can start running the instances depening on your gear. It's always been true that the tank either needs the best gear or be the highest level in the group and it's still true in this expansion.I enjoy this expansion much more than TSO. Even the totally crappy way they handled gear progression for the casual raider it's still fun.All that being said, SK's still are seriously OP'ed and I absolutly refuse to even consider grouping with one with my Guardian and I seriously hesitate to do so with my Troubador 'casue it makes me sick for my Guardian.

Raahl

04-26-2010, 02:54 PM

Thanks Rahat and Wasuna.I'm sure I'll be full of all sorts of questions, once I read up on what's changed. I was not very frustrated when I left, just mostly burnt out. Though with all the Guardians in my guild, I suspect I'll be playing my alts more often. I don't see any reason to have a 3rd guardian on a raid. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />BTW my equipment is so outdated it should be a crime.

Landiin

04-26-2010, 04:07 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>These long threads get all jumbled even before breuner gets involved with his propaganda. Let me summarize for you:1. The expansion has made things much easier on Guardians. That means you must get level 81 and get the Group Moderate and the Taunt on reversal AA's. Once you have those then you can generally hold agro nicely on a group with 3 DPS classes as long as you have at least One (1) form of real hate transfer. The wizard one is nice but basically useless. You need one of the following: Dirge, Coercer, Assassin, Swashbuckler. Troubadors are nice also but you have less control over the agro with them.2. Unless you are at the very top end of raiding and the raiding gear that comes with it you will NEVER approach the DPS an equally geared crusdaer will do. No matter what Breuner says, this is 100% true. Digg tried to show us he could do as much as a SK could but in the end I am persoanlly sure that he can't. He can sure do some nice DPS for a Guardian though.3. The game is reasonably balanced for raid geared people. That is all. The lower you go down on the gear food chain the further apart the fighters get. It's really sad that SOE can't do better than that but it's the case.So, if your a level 80 Guardian already and quit because you hate TSO so bad it made blood vessels pop in your head then good news, things are much better. Come back, run through the solo quests in the expansion and get level 86-87 and 20-30 more AA's (Put 10-20% exp towards AA.. makes it much easier). Then you'll have group moderate, reversal hate proc and some other stuff. Then start doing some Hole groups, work on your faction and figure out who needs Moderate and how much agro your gear allows for and stuff. Once you hit 89'ish you can start running the instances depening on your gear. It's always been true that the tank either needs the best gear or be the highest level in the group and it's still true in this expansion.I enjoy this expansion much more than TSO. Even the totally crappy way they handled gear progression for the casual raider it's still fun.All that being said, SK's still are seriously OP'ed and I absolutly refuse to even consider grouping with one with my Guardian and I seriously hesitate to do so with my Troubador 'casue it makes me sick for my Guardian.</blockquote>Nice summation of the guard class for them returning Wasun, no one can argue with that.

Raahl

04-26-2010, 04:15 PM

<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>These long threads get all jumbled even before breuner gets involved with his propaganda. Let me summarize for you:1. The expansion has made things much easier on Guardians. That means you must get level 81 and get the Group Moderate and the Taunt on reversal AA's. Once you have those then you can generally hold agro nicely on a group with 3 DPS classes as long as you have at least One (1) form of real hate transfer. The wizard one is nice but basically useless. You need one of the following: Dirge, Coercer, Assassin, Swashbuckler. Troubadors are nice also but you have less control over the agro with them.2. Unless you are at the very top end of raiding and the raiding gear that comes with it you will NEVER approach the DPS an equally geared crusdaer will do. No matter what Breuner says, this is 100% true. Digg tried to show us he could do as much as a SK could but in the end I am persoanlly sure that he can't. He can sure do some nice DPS for a Guardian though.3. The game is reasonably balanced for raid geared people. That is all. The lower you go down on the gear food chain the further apart the fighters get. It's really sad that SOE can't do better than that but it's the case.So, if your a level 80 Guardian already and quit because you hate TSO so bad it made blood vessels pop in your head then good news, things are much better. Come back, run through the solo quests in the expansion and get level 86-87 and 20-30 more AA's (Put 10-20% exp towards AA.. makes it much easier). Then you'll have group moderate, reversal hate proc and some other stuff. Then start doing some Hole groups, work on your faction and figure out who needs Moderate and how much agro your gear allows for and stuff. Once you hit 89'ish you can start running the instances depening on your gear. It's always been true that the tank either needs the best gear or be the highest level in the group and it's still true in this expansion.I enjoy this expansion much more than TSO. Even the totally crappy way they handled gear progression for the casual raider it's still fun.All that being said, SK's still are seriously OP'ed and I absolutly refuse to even consider grouping with one with my Guardian and I seriously hesitate to do so with my Troubador 'casue it makes me sick for my Guardian.</blockquote>Nice summation of the guard class for them returning Wasun, no one can argue with that.</blockquote>Oh I think you might be surprised, cause unless these forums have radically changed, someone will find a way to argue this. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />