So why is my Ranged dps Lower than my melee dps again? [Archive]

View Full Version : So why is my Ranged dps Lower than my melee dps again?

bryan4171

03-12-2010, 11:49 AM

"Rangers are unrivaled in their ability to hunt foes and scout dangers in the untamed wilds of Norrath. Known for sneaking safely through dangerous territory, Rangers use stealth, perception and cunning to seek out enemies and fell them from a distance with a deadly volley of arrows." If this looks familiar it is our class description from the eq2 website.Just wondering.

Scillion

03-12-2010, 11:51 AM

Simple Answer? the Range Combat Arts Timers ... Our melee are between 10 seconds and 30 seconds, our Ranged are 1 minute plus ... reduce the Timers you get more DPS ...

Kulaf

03-12-2010, 04:11 PM

Why? There is more danger fighting at zero range than there is fighting 35m away. That is the simple answer. The complex answer is defining that risk vs. reward in a meanful way. Which of course is always going to be the subject of debate between ranged fighters and melee fighters.

kartikeya

03-12-2010, 05:20 PM

Except this is pretty much bunk in reality, because rangers don't fight 35m away, because mages are not held to this same 'balance' even though they are entirely capable at fighting at ranged, because there are fights that require jousting but no fights that come to mind that are ENTIRELY ranged fights wherein a ranged DPS class is absolutely required even if rangers did fight that far away (hint, we don't, we're up with the other scouts if we know anything about our class), in solo we have the mobs running into our faces, in groups we sure aren't standing that far back, in raids, ditto, and at what point does 'ranged' stop costing additional things? I would think paying extra plat to do any auto attack damage at all would be a significant cost, but apparently DPS is also a cost, and apparently so is not being able to move while casting combat arts, and so is not having any utility beyond a short term, group accuracy buff, so is having significantly weaker AAs than assassins, so is not being able to do our vaunted ranged DPS from closer than 2 meters unless you want to spend the rest of your life with the mythical even in T9...and well, we could go on for some time here.When's it stop costing again, and when do I get to see the great benefits of fighting at ranged that balance out all these costs?

Sydares

03-12-2010, 05:47 PM

<cite>Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why? There is more danger fighting at zero range than there is fighting 35m away. That is the simple answer.</blockquote>It is also the stupid answer.

Kulaf

03-17-2010, 03:23 PM

<cite>Sydares wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why? There is more danger fighting at zero range than there is fighting 35m away. That is the simple answer.</blockquote>It is also the stupid answer.</blockquote>Let's not discuss your comprehension skills.If you don't think there is more danger fighting right next to the MOB than there is standing at 35m then you are a [Removed for Content]. Personally I don't think you are a [Removed for Content] I just think you're a troll.

Ranja

03-17-2010, 05:00 PM

<cite>Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sydares wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why? There is more danger fighting at zero range than there is fighting 35m away. That is the simple answer.</blockquote>It is also the stupid answer.</blockquote>Let's not discuss your comprehension skills.If you don't think there is more danger fighting right next to the MOB than there is standing at 35m then you are a [Removed for Content]. Personally I don't think you are a [Removed for Content] I just think you're a troll.</blockquote>He is suggesting that rangers don't actually stand 35M away. Which if you read any of the threads or were up to date on ranger mechanics you would know is true. But your post suggests that you repeat the drivel that other classes say about rangers. I don't know how many times Rangers can say this before peopel understand.WE DO NOT FIGHT AT RANGE. WE FIGHT WHERE EVERY OTHER MELEE CLASS FIGHTS.So yes your reply was the stupid answer because it is not based in reality.

Neiloch

03-17-2010, 05:34 PM

Also if melee's were dying regularly while mages and rangers could hang back and die much less you would have a point. Usually its mages AND scouts are dying or not, there isn't much of a line. This crap about dps at range, wearing chain, not needing to stealth for a bunch of CA's, weak debuffs all factoring in on balance is complete crap. Other players don't care that we can shoot far while wearing chain, or have piddly debuffs on some CA's, or don't need to stealth as much. All they care about is: A. How much damage we can do B. What we can do for THEM Balancing any class on anything other than these 2 factors is 100% dumb. Can you tank for them? Yes, Awesome your in. Can you heal for them? Yes, get in. Got utility for them? yes? cool deal. Can you DPS for them? Yes? Sweet get on....Oh wait theres another class that can DPS more AND has more utility? [Removed for Content] we want them then. Its that simple.

kartikeya

03-18-2010, 02:13 AM

You probably shouldn't lecture someone on their reading comprehension skills when the simple, basic fact that rangers do NOT fight 35m away (and if they are, dump them, they're not doing half the DPS they could be doing), has apparently not yet sunk in with you.Or you're the one who's trolling, one of the two.

Alenna

03-18-2010, 12:04 PM

<cite>Ranja wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sydares wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why? There is more danger fighting at zero range than there is fighting 35m away. That is the simple answer.</blockquote>It is also the stupid answer.</blockquote>Let's not discuss your comprehension skills.If you don't think there is more danger fighting right next to the MOB than there is standing at 35m then you are a [Removed for Content]. Personally I don't think you are a [Removed for Content] I just think you're a troll.</blockquote>He is suggesting that rangers don't actually stand 35M away. Which if you read any of the threads or were up to date on ranger mechanics you would know is true. But your post suggests that you repeat the drivel that other classes say about rangers. I don't know how many times Rangers can say this before peopel understand.WE DO NOT FIGHT AT RANGE. WE FIGHT WHERE EVERY OTHER MELEE CLASS FIGHTS.So yes your reply was the stupid answer because it is not based in reality.</blockquote>Not only that but to get the most dps we have to try and stay in the sweet spot where our Ranged and melee CAs work.

bryan4171

03-18-2010, 12:28 PM

That sweet spot seems to be a little bit harder to hit with new x-pac. Spend most of fight jousting now.

Kulaf

03-25-2010, 03:24 PM

See it doesn't matter if you "are" fighting 35m away or not.....but that you "can" fight 35m away and still do pretty fair damage. I should know I have an 80 Ranger with 200AA as my alt. If you want to cut off the rest of my response where I quite clearly state that there is a delicate balance between the ability to fight at range and the need to fight at melee range then you just do yourself and your class a disservice as you sound like raving loons.When someone asks a silly question and uses the class description written when the game was created as a basis for their arguement and you all just stand there mute then you also look like unreasonable curmudgeons.

bryan4171

03-25-2010, 03:56 PM

My silly point was we are a ranged class. Yes melee is part of our class make-up, but by our description (I dont care how old it is it is still sitting there, if it is not correct anymore change it) we are a ranged class so common sense would say my ranged dmg is higher than my melee.You know and god forbid a person new to EQ2 used the descrption to pick out a class.Or by your silly thinking since once a descrption is old it is no longer valid.How would you describe say a wheel? Round wait nope thats old no longer valid.And maybee i should have clarified for you trolls this is in ref. to AA.Thank you for shopping at Kwik-E-Mart come again!!!

Nevao

03-25-2010, 04:02 PM

<cite>Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>See it doesn't matter if you "are" fighting 35m away or not.....but that you "can" fight 35m away and still do pretty fair damage. I should know I have an 80 Ranger with 200AA as my alt. Yes, but we do less damage at 2-5 meters and there are no fights that I know of that the other melee DPS has to stay out so long that we start doing more damage than Assassins. Is it a nice to have yes? But I don't think it justifies pushing us so far down the DPS hierarchy.If you want to cut off the rest of my response where I quite clearly state that there is a delicate balance between the ability to fight at range and the need to fight at melee range then you just do yourself and your class a disservice as you sound like raving loons. Raving loons on forums? On one of the EQ2 class forums? Surely you jest. I will be the first to admit we have several people more interested in mouthing off than debating but I still think that while the basis for your arguments make sense, in reality they just don't play out. Or should not play out to the extreme that they currently do. Many of our DPS problems come from previous work arounds (instead of fixing the underlying problem) to unintended consequenses of game mechanics benefiting Rangers in an extreme way, or Stats/Gear balances that have shifted over time. That has lead to the current disparity not the fact that we can go hang with the 'locks when fighting.When someone asks a silly question and uses the class description written when the game was created as a basis for their arguement and you all just stand there mute then you also look like unreasonable curmudgeons. 1) I have called people out before, but typically not over this kind of stuff. You're not going to win in an emotions fight but when figures are wrong I'm the first to say something. 2) Man, you can only fight so much and many of us are more concerned with trying to convince the Devs to help us than in trying to cut back on our brethern's theatric and hyperbole, but posts like your's don't help anything either. Unless of course you really are just trying to win a Trolling Merit badge.</blockquote>

Kulaf

03-26-2010, 02:34 AM

<cite>bryan4171 wrote:</cite><blockquote>My silly point was we are a ranged class. Yes melee is part of our class make-up, but by our description (I dont care how old it is it is still sitting there, if it is not correct anymore change it) we are a ranged class so common sense would say my ranged dmg is higher than my melee.</blockquote>The class description is still accurate. No other class can do as much ranged damage with a weapon as a Ranger can. It is only because of the balance I am referring to that Rangers can attack with their bows from ranges others cannot. This was an effort by the last mechanics dev to increase Ranger DPS while still offering some element of danger that the other Scouts face with 180 frontals and everything else that can kill you in an instant if a raid mob flips its facing.Your ranged damage is higher than your melee. Don't use any ranged CA's nor use your bow at all to attack and tell me your melee DPS is higher than your "ranged" DPS.I'm not trolling Rangers.....I play one. Hell I play a Troubadour as my main and we have more issues than Rangers have so I know what its like to be the "read headed step child" in a world that only seems to value you based on where you fall on the DPS charts.

kidpaul

03-26-2010, 04:07 AM

<cite>Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>bryan4171 wrote:</cite><blockquote>My silly point was we are a ranged class. Yes melee is part of our class make-up, but by our description (I dont care how old it is it is still sitting there, if it is not correct anymore change it) we are a ranged class so common sense would say my ranged dmg is higher than my melee.</blockquote>The class description is still accurate. No other class can do as much ranged damage with a weapon as a Ranger can. It is only because of the balance I am referring to that Rangers can attack with their bows from ranges others cannot. This was an effort by the last mechanics dev to increase Ranger DPS while still offering some element of danger that the other Scouts face with 180 frontals and everything else that can kill you in an instant if a raid mob flips its facing.Your ranged damage is higher than your melee. Don't use any ranged CA's nor use your bow at all to attack and tell me your melee DPS is higher than your "ranged" DPS.I'm not trolling Rangers.....I play one. Hell I play a Troubadour as my main and we have more issues than Rangers have so I know what its like to be the "read headed step child" in a world that only seems to value you based on where you fall on the DPS charts. </blockquote>I dont know if troubadors have worse issues than rangers or if your on par with us since I dont play one but I only know that I frequently see groups looking for coercers, illys, dirges and troubs for raid forces or plain groups on the server I play on every night. So even with issues your class have it is still desired by groups and raid force. Sure maybe I dont see "group looking for a troub to fill last slot" that often maybe once in a blue moon even but it does happen. I can't even remember that last time I saw a raid force announing that they want a ranger to fill their roster or a group looking for a ranger.Maybe guilds are looking for troubs to fill their ranks cause their last one quit cause of boredom or the class have issues that is so frustrating that it's not fun to play anymore but atleast new ones are welcomed. So if your class have worse issues than us and are still desirable by groups and raid forces I dont even know what kind of respone I should type to that.Sorry that your class is broken but still desired by other groups and raid forces and hope SOE fixes it. And sorry if your groups or raid force dont see the value in buffs and debuffs a troub brings to the table and only go by the numbers they seen in the parse.

Alenna

03-26-2010, 11:01 AM

Kulaf

03-26-2010, 12:08 PM

<cite>kidpaul wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>bryan4171 wrote:</cite><blockquote>My silly point was we are a ranged class. Yes melee is part of our class make-up, but by our description (I dont care how old it is it is still sitting there, if it is not correct anymore change it) we are a ranged class so common sense would say my ranged dmg is higher than my melee.</blockquote>The class description is still accurate. No other class can do as much ranged damage with a weapon as a Ranger can. It is only because of the balance I am referring to that Rangers can attack with their bows from ranges others cannot. This was an effort by the last mechanics dev to increase Ranger DPS while still offering some element of danger that the other Scouts face with 180 frontals and everything else that can kill you in an instant if a raid mob flips its facing.Your ranged damage is higher than your melee. Don't use any ranged CA's nor use your bow at all to attack and tell me your melee DPS is higher than your "ranged" DPS.I'm not trolling Rangers.....I play one. Hell I play a Troubadour as my main and we have more issues than Rangers have so I know what its like to be the "read headed step child" in a world that only seems to value you based on where you fall on the DPS charts. </blockquote>I dont know if troubadors have worse issues than rangers or if your on par with us since I dont play one but I only know that I frequently see groups looking for coercers, illys, dirges and troubs for raid forces or plain groups on the server I play on every night. So even with issues your class have it is still desired by groups and raid force. Sure maybe I dont see "group looking for a troub to fill last slot" that often maybe once in a blue moon even but it does happen. I can't even remember that last time I saw a raid force announing that they want a ranger to fill their roster or a group looking for a ranger.Maybe guilds are looking for troubs to fill their ranks cause their last one quit cause of boredom or the class have issues that is so frustrating that it's not fun to play anymore but atleast new ones are welcomed. So if your class have worse issues than us and are still desirable by groups and raid forces I dont even know what kind of respone I should type to that.Sorry that your class is broken but still desired by other groups and raid forces and hope SOE fixes it. And sorry if your groups or raid force dont see the value in buffs and debuffs a troub brings to the table and only go by the numbers they seen in the parse.</blockquote>The reason you see people asking for Troubs in groups is because we are now at last count the 2nd least played class in EQ2. And again you see us desired in raids and on guild recruitment pages because of our low play numbers and our raid utility. However I am quite often out DPS'd by Fury and Inquisitors. I can top parse around 15k on a raid if the stars all align properly. Some of the Troub issues were helped by the expansions consolidation of ranged and melee DA and Ranged/Melee and Spell crit. Prior to that I was a Scout that only had 4 CA's and everything else spells and no real way to build spell crit as all of the Scout gear was centered on enhancing melee crit.As you might or might not be aware, there was a movement to make Bards and Enchanters less desireabile on raids by making many of our buffs either raid-wide or group castable. This would have pretty much dealt a death blow to the least played Scout class in the game as most guilds would have then had the option of just bringing along a Troub bot who doesn't compete with other classes for gear drops. Fortunatly there were issues with the group castable buffs in beta and the entire change was scrapped for the time being. But I am sure it is still looming out there somewhere.I hope both classes get attention. But if I have to be honest here I hope it is Troubs first as we have NEVER received any attention from the Devs.

Kulaf

03-26-2010, 12:10 PM

<cite>Alenna@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>bryan4171 wrote:</cite><blockquote>My silly point was we are a ranged class. Yes melee is part of our class make-up, but by our description (I dont care how old it is it is still sitting there, if it is not correct anymore change it) we are a ranged class so common sense would say my ranged dmg is higher than my melee.</blockquote>The class description is still accurate. No other class can do as much ranged damage with a weapon as a Ranger can. It is only because of the balance I am referring to that Rangers can attack with their bows from ranges others cannot. This was an effort by the last mechanics dev to increase Ranger DPS while still offering some element of danger that the other Scouts face with 180 frontals and everything else that can kill you in an instant if a raid mob flips its facing.Your ranged damage is higher than your melee. Don't use any ranged CA's nor use your bow at all to attack and tell me your melee DPS is higher than your "ranged" DPS.I'm not trolling Rangers.....I play one. Hell I play a Troubadour as my main and we have more issues than Rangers have so I know what its like to be the "read headed step child" in a world that only seems to value you based on where you fall on the DPS charts. </blockquote>Sorry some one did a test with 2 swords that were fabled if I recall and discovered that he did better using the swords then with the Mythic bow after the "fixes" in this expansion, and before you say he didn't know how to play it was Strykor(sp) who did that and tried to get the Devs to see that during beta.</blockquote>I assume that was posted in the beta forums. I must have missed it but I would be interested in reading his testing methodology because I cannot fathom how that could be unless he is only speaking about auto attack damage.

Geothe

03-26-2010, 12:22 PM

If i recall from the Beta boards on that melee vs autoattack comparison, the issue arose because for some reason Double Attack wasn't applying correctly to range attacks.(ie melee autoattack had the expected DA amount based on gear, but ranged autoattack wasnt DAing nearly as much).Is that still an issue?Have any of you rangers actually tried comparing melee and ranged Autoattack since release?

kartikeya

03-26-2010, 06:05 PM

Melee auto attack still out-DPSes ranged auto attack on live, yes. Insofar as I know, nothing was ever done in beta to address this issue. Mostly that's a culmination of the misguided belief that ranged auto attack has been doing far more damage than melee auto attack. It hasn't for quite some time. People see big numbers and say 'hey, that's doing more DPS!' but it isn't actually. Melee auto attack DPS and ranged auto attack DPS have been very close for quite some time, and SF just pushed melee ahead.Incidentally, most of those tests were done without the proc from our offensive stance, the proc from makeshift arrows, and the DoT proc that comes from our TSO set pants, and our mythical proc, all things that only proc off of ranged. And before I get your hopes up too high? ...I've done this test on live without bothering to get rid of any of those procs, and melee autoattack still commonly outparses ranged auto attack (and there aren't any procs on my melee auto attack at all. We're talking about four procs working off of ranged auto attack and ZERO procs on melee, and melee still generally wins out). It's close, but melee still tends to win. That's pretty messed up.To explain to the trouby why this is a big big big deal, you can't stand in the sweet spot, which is a place between 2-5 meters from the mob (not 35 meters out), and melee auto attack. The sweet spot is what allows us to use both melee and ranged arts in a raid fight. But it's too far out for melee auto attack, even if you've got the Miragul's charm. Which means you have to run in with all the rest of the scouts. Except your ranged arts, which are the vast bulk of your combat arts, won't work from that distance. The suggested solution on these boards is apparently to blow all our ranged combat arts really fast, run in and melee, while doing melee combat arts, then run back out to blow our ranged arts when they come up, and pray this somehow does more damage. Sound like fun to you?Note, going full melee auto attack means we don't get any benefit from makeshift arrows, no proc from offensive stance, no proc from the mythical buff, no proc from set pants (all extremely large parts of our DPS in raids). Our mythical buff adds 10% combat art damage and a base auto attack multiplier, and that is absolutely all it does outside of the (already kind've mediocre anyway) proc.Now I don't doubt troubies have their own issues, not the least of which is apparently they're kind've boring on a raid. However, troubies are extremely useful to a raid force, boring buff bots or no. I don't know how their buffs stack against dirges and enchanters, but their buffs are extremely useful, and you do NOT want to raid without bards. In fact, isn't a bard in every group the ideal? Four bards at least then, yeah? So please allow me to point out the obvious: no raid looks specifically for rangers. In fact, it may be detrimental to a raid to take a ranger along, if they haven't padded out the DPS in other areas so as to make up for taking along a class that generally can't compete with the other DPS classes, or in some cases, the 'buff bots'. While it's nice to do DPS as a utility class, that's not what the class is brought along for on raids. And while yes, troubies are at the bottom of the pile, or were pre-SF, when it comes to utility DPS, your main purpose isn't to do DPS. That is ALL rangers can do. It is the only reason to bring a ranger. And I've had a few bards dogging at my heels on the parse in this expansion.If no one played a ranger, you would not see raids calling for a ranger in their current state. Lack of players does not somehow make the class more desirable unless the class was desirable before. Boring or not, troubies benefit raids and groups greatly. Those buffs of yours can make or break a raid or a group. Rangers bring DPS. At the moment, rangers bring subpar DPS, and less utility than other T1 DPS classes, let alone the T2 (swashy) or the utility classes. So people wouldn't call for rangers. They can grab any other DPS class and gear and AA being equal, that DPS class will do more DPS than a ranger would.Sorcerers included. Which breaks your entire argument. Sorcerers are sitting at the top of the heap right now, and they can sit further out than rangers can and do almost max DPS, whereas rangers sitting at ranged are crippled for damage. Oh, and I have to pay for arrows to be able to do that. So exactly where's the balance there? And please don't say cloth versus chain armor. The AEs this expansion will one-shot you regardless of whether you're wearing a dress or a chain shirt, and it's been that way for quite some time. Ditto should you happen to pull aggro.TL;DR: Rangers don't sit that far out, if they do voluntarily, they suck, if they do because of encounter mechanics, they will do less damage than sorcerers, who can do that almost without penalty (I believe Fusion needs you to run into melee range?) and melee classes will still beat me even if they have to joust AEs, we bring less utility than just about any other class in the game, pay through the nose for arrows (our raid assassin was shocked when I told him how many I use on a typical raid night, even with all the little things put in to reduce that number), do less DPS than the top tier DPS classes and less than most of the second tier DPS classes (and prior to this expansion, a well played ILLUSIONIST, T3 DPS, would out-DPS me), and in spite of us supposedly being predators, we do less DPS than bards if some part of the encounter forces us into minimum range.And all of that, and I'd just like to point out there's probably a reason your raid wants you bringing your trouby rather than your ranger to raids. Just a thought.

Kulaf

03-26-2010, 09:50 PM

You could have really saved yourself that entire wall of text had you read what I have already posted in this thread. I play a Ranger as my alt.....I have raided with him.....I know the mechanics of Rangers. My ranger has 6 set T4 TSO gear, Myth, yadda yadda. I also have already conceded that Troubs are desired on raids due to their utility.My posts in this thread continue to be misconstrued that somehow I think Rangers are perfectly balanced......well they're not. But no class is. Every class has their issues except for the one or two OP'd classes of the time. But if you all continue to jump people who make rather innocuous comments then all you are going to do is drive support from other classes away.As to the reason my guild wants me to bring my Troub.......well that is because I want to play my Troub. Perhaps I am in the minority in that I have been gaming with my guild for almost 10 years now. They want me on raids for me.....not what class I happen to play.

Ademelo

03-27-2010, 01:03 AM

Kulanae,Granted, you have stated the Ranger class is broken, but you continue to state that the Troub class is broken also and should be fixed ahead of us. How so is the troub broken? Please don't tell me the DPS factor because, and I don't care who gets frazzled with this one, but you're a support class. I'm tired of support classes complaining about how their DPS is low, when all a ranger can bring to the table is DPS and we're being beaten on a CONSTANT basis by all other T1 DPS and quite a few T2 DPS classes. It's been this way for the last few years and nothing has done to change it this expac again. We're not asking to be gods on the playing field, we're asking the Devs to level the playing field so we're not excluded.

kidpaul

03-27-2010, 06:07 AM

Im just gonna quickly highjack this thread again for some quick statistics we all know how statistics never lie.X Rolled... RockBrigand : 71199Coercer : 71891Defiler : 75102Mystic : 80694Inquisitor : 80769Illusionist : 89191Troubador : 93260---Ranger : 178536Shadow Knight : 219733Wizard : 283790Yes the troubador comes in at number 7 and at the other side of the spectrum the ranger is 3rd most rolled and we complain we are the 3rd most popular character out there. But you cant just look at the how many of players have a x class (obvious this is what SOE does... Dont worry I got a no developer sign on my door (lets see if that joke backfires)) . Cause if we only looked at the sheer number of players that have a certain class that class would never be fixed. So lets look at it broken down in scouts.Scout... PaperRanger 178536 , 6274 , 687 Brigand 71199 , 5395 , 735 Assassin 149175 , 5968 , 805 Swashbuckler 108512 , 5252 , 791 Troubador 93260 , 5315 , 967 Dirge 114663 , 7935 , 1544So what does those the 3 numbers mean?Nr 1 all players, all servers, lvl 1-90,Nr 2 all players, all servers, lvl 80-90.Nr 3 all players, all servers, lvl 90.When we look at it this way the Ranger is the least played character of the scouts and only beaten out classwise by the Bruiser (490) and Monk (524) while the troubador have a nice 5th place of the scouts and top 8th classwise. But I didn't put this together to stomp on Kulanae but rather just to point out that yes they have it bad see below.Utility... ScissorTroubador : 93260 , 6429 , 967Illusionist : 89191 , 6429 , 1061 Coercer : 71891 , 5796 , 1121 Dirge : 114663 , 7935 , 1544They are the least played utility at endgame. Some would argue that Brigand, Swashbuckler, Necromancer and Conjuror should be added to the utility list but they are hybrids of dps and utility.On a side note I would like to say hats of to the Monks and Bruisers atleast im not them.All numbers taken from SOE's official eq2player site in 2010-03-27 9am GMT+1. Errors might have been made cause of early morning and just 1 cup of coffee and low alcohol tolerance... im working on that one.

Neiloch

03-27-2010, 11:30 AM

I know troubs aren't as bad off as rangers simply because you don't see raid guilds or groups looking specifically for rangers, but I have seen them looking for troubs. EQ2 is built on tank/healer/utility/DPS, if you don't bring one of these in high capacity you are not desired. Brawlers and rangers are evidence of this. When it comes to DPS, OTHER players don't care how you do DPS, just that you do it. They don't look at ranger DPS and think 'well hes not topping the parse but he can do it ranged while being a scout so I guess its ok' or 'well he doesn't have to stealth as much as an assassin to do it' they think 'he's not matching the assassin/wizard, F em' I also have the luxury of my guild wanting me around, although I do more work than most typical raiders. I manage ventrilo, loot, DKP site, and on raids I'm the one charged with doing w/e special mechanics a fight may have such as pulling adds and clicking items.

Nevao

03-27-2010, 03:40 PM

<cite>Neiloch@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I also have the luxury of my guild wanting me around, although I do more work than most typical raiders. I manage ventrilo, loot, DKP site, and on raids I'm the one charged with doing w/e special mechanics a fight may have such as pulling adds and clicking items.</blockquote>Wait, I host Ventrillo, I manage DKP, I'm backup on Loot Bids and I'm usually MA or the one who stand at the joust out point. So now we know the two ways to pull off being a raiding ranger, lead the raid or be the "office manager". LOL.

Kulaf

03-27-2010, 08:15 PM

I'll just add one more comment that is skewing Kidpaul's numbers on the 80-90 figures for Dirges and Troubs and that is bots. Whether that is raid bots or group bots or just people who bring along a Dirge/Troub as a 2nd comp our numbers of actual players to mains is even lower than his stats show.Since asked I will outline some issues on our "utility":1) Our HP regen buff has been marginalized out of existance. It is never played.2) Our Power regen which used to be one of the best in the game.....is now one of the worst.3) We still have attacks that drain mob power......even after all of the fixes to Enchanters to get rid of this and give them either DPS or futher utility we remain unchanged.4) Our Haste buff is now one of the worst in game.5) Our stat buffs don't affect us anymore. Buffing INT no longer does anything to boost Troub DPS.6) Our +Def buff is now worthless as SF raid mobs seem to have 100% hit rates.7) Don't Kill the Messenger which used to be great because it boosted crits now is pretty much worthless as most every raider and certainly every caster is maxed on Crit percentage.Now I could go on but there is nothing I could say that you can't stop over to the Troub board and read for yourself. It boils down to Troubs being a three trick pony right now (Jester's Cap, Aria of Magic and Perfection of the Maestro). That's it. Don't even get me going on healers out dpsing us on parses. I have pride as a Scout class and SOE is seriously stomping on my nuts with that one.In passing I leave you with this......the grass is always greener......over the septic tank.

Neiloch

03-27-2010, 08:54 PM

Troubs are still sought after on raids, rangers aren't.One of the top guilds on my server have two troubs, and have ranger recruitment closed without even having one.Its not who gets played more/less or who is ACTUALLY balanced, the only thing that matters is that people DESIRE to group and/or raid with X class. A class could be THE most screwed up, [Removed for Content] class, if for w/e reason people actively tried recruiting them, I would say they are doing 'well enough'. I would concede troubs are towards the bottom of desired, but they are not the worst off, not even close.

Kulaf

03-27-2010, 09:04 PM

I Don't recall ever seeing any guild on Blackburrow ever recruiting for any DPS class. The only recruting I ever see is for healers or utility classes. Probably because they require the most work and are the least "fun". Everyone flocks to the limelight of the parse spotlight so you have a lot more competition.

Sydares

03-28-2010, 03:02 AM

<cite>Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you don't think there is more danger fighting right next to the MOB than there is standing at 35m then you are a [Removed for Content]. Personally I don't think you are a [Removed for Content] I just think you're a troll.</blockquote>Well deduced. On that note, Troubador forums are that way. --->

kartikeya

03-28-2010, 08:42 AM

<cite>Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>You could have really saved yourself that entire wall of text had you read what I have already posted in this thread. I play a Ranger as my alt.....I have raided with him.....I know the mechanics of Rangers. My ranger has 6 set T4 TSO gear, Myth, yadda yadda. I also have already conceded that Troubs are desired on raids due to their utility.My posts in this thread continue to be misconstrued that somehow I think Rangers are perfectly balanced......well they're not. But no class is. Every class has their issues except for the one or two OP'd classes of the time. But if you all continue to jump people who make rather innocuous comments then all you are going to do is drive support from other classes away.As to the reason my guild wants me to bring my Troub.......well that is because I want to play my Troub. Perhaps I am in the minority in that I have been gaming with my guild for almost 10 years now. They want me on raids for me.....not what class I happen to play.</blockquote>I have read your posts. And in spite of claiming to know ranger mechanics and how rangers are played, you've posted some pretty misleading comments. Not to mention the 'rangers can fight at ranged, hurrhurr' argument has. n't been valid since DoF, if then.You play a troub as a main. You clearly are well versed in troub issues and have strong feelings about things that need to be fixed with troubies. That's cool, and I'm all for you guys getting attention. However, it'd be great if you'd recognize that the people who play their rangers as mains are also generally well versed in ranger issues, ranger mechanics, and have strong feelings about things that need to be fixed. There's a big difference between 'not perfectly balanced' and 'in desperate need of attention'. Rangers are the latter. Rangers have been the latter for arguably years. And as these are the ranger boards, we're discussing severe ranger issues at the moment.I'm friends with the people I raid with. They try to bring me whenever they can. But the bottom line is, when you're doing new content, difficult content, you need to build your raid accordingly, and there are only so many slots (and for DPS, these slots are very very very very few). You raid, I'm sure you recognize this. If rangers can't keep up, rangers don't get slots. It's as simple as that. When you add all the ridiculous penalties for ranged damage on top of the fact that ranged DPS can't come close to spell or melee DPS, well, it gets extremely frustrating. It's all we've got to bring to the table.

Venez

03-28-2010, 10:34 AM

<cite>Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'll just add one more comment that is skewing Kidpaul's numbers on the 80-90 figures for Dirges and Troubs and that is bots. Whether that is raid bots or group bots or just people who bring along a Dirge/Troub as a 2nd comp our numbers of actual players to mains is even lower than his stats show.Since asked I will outline some issues on our "utility":1) Our HP regen buff has been marginalized out of existance. It is never played.2) Our Power regen which used to be one of the best in the game.....is now one of the worst.3) We still have attacks that drain mob power......even after all of the fixes to Enchanters to get rid of this and give them either DPS or futher utility we remain unchanged.4) Our Haste buff is now one of the worst in game.5) Our stat buffs don't affect us anymore. Buffing INT no longer does anything to boost Troub DPS.6) Our +Def buff is now worthless as SF raid mobs seem to have 100% hit rates.7) Don't Kill the Messenger which used to be great because it boosted crits now is pretty much worthless as most every raider and certainly every caster is maxed on Crit percentage.Now I could go on but there is nothing I could say that you can't stop over to the Troub board and read for yourself. It boils down to Troubs being a three trick pony right now (Jester's Cap, Aria of Magic and Perfection of the Maestro). That's it. Don't even get me going on healers out dpsing us on parses. I have pride as a Scout class and SOE is seriously stomping on my nuts with that one.In passing I leave you with this......the grass is always greener......over the septic tank.</blockquote>Wow...seriously just wow, i thought you were kidding in the first few posts.First, if your getting outparsed by healers then you just suck on your Troub - Feel free to ask any of the troubs in Defiance how to play your class as ive NEVER seen a healer even close to them.Second, your "broken" class still has the best utlity / buffs in the game for EVERY caster and SKThird, seeing that you dont know the mechanics for your Troub, I dont see how you can claim to know the mechanics for a Ranger.Id like to repost this on the other site to see what kind of .....intrest it would bring.

Nevao

03-28-2010, 12:47 PM

I think our troll from the Troub forum is growing fat from all the attention. He does not want to discuss we now know his intent is to argue Troubs have it worse and we don't know what we're talking about with our own Mains. Probably best to just start ignoring his cries, otherwise he'll never learn to stop.

Kulaf

03-28-2010, 02:11 PM

<cite>Venez@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wow...seriously just wow, i thought you were kidding in the first few posts.First, if your getting outparsed by healers then you just suck on your Troub - Feel free to ask any of the troubs in Defiance how to play your class as ive NEVER seen a healer even close to them.Second, your "broken" class still has the best utlity / buffs in the game for EVERY caster and SKThird, seeing that you dont know the mechanics for your Troub, I dont see how you can claim to know the mechanics for a Ranger.Id like to repost this on the other site to see what kind of .....intrest it would bring.</blockquote>I have been outparsed a few times by Inquisitors and Fury. I said so in my posts. Those two classes tend to do the least healing and the most fighting. I have posted that I can hit 15k on my parses if I have say a Inq/Illy/Conj in my group makeup and I am getting IA from the Illy. I've played a Bard in some form since EQ1. If you want to post this to EQ2Flames (as some kind of veiled threat), be my guest. Invite your guild members who are Troubs to join the discussion. Should be fun. Not sure what insight if any they can lend to Ranger issues but they can certainly confirm what I have been saying about Troubs.Ohh and btw this thread is now a blazing fireball of attention. You're welcome. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" />

callahan

03-28-2010, 09:35 PM

only SEVEN things broken with Troubs atm?If anyone managed to finsh the Ranger List, it would be the end of civilization as we know it!! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />(SOE can you rollback my 90 raiding ranger back a few years to character select? I think I was supposed to click Swashy)

bryan4171

03-29-2010, 01:40 PM

Huh, what is a raiding Ranger did I wake up from a 3 year nightmare. Is that some rare new class out there can I roll one?