A DPS mathematical discovery! The best scout weapons are..... [Archive]

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Bluu

03-12-2010, 04:24 AM

are........ the ones with the lowest damage range and lowest delay.I did my own research, at about level 32 I listed the ranges (dmg and delay) of ALL the Feysteel weapons, and found that there are only four different delays. (listed damage on top, delay on bottom) They are: 10-38/1.6, 18-71/3, 24-95/4, and 30-119/5. I simply divided those values up to get two values (the range DPS) of each particular weapon, so in this case, the higher the DPS, the better. Here are the results:10-38/1.6 = 6.25 to 23.75 dps18-71/3 = 6 to 23.6 dps24-95/4 = 6 to 23.75 dps30-119/5 = 6 to 23.8 dpsIt is obvious from looking at these values that the fastest weapons also have the best dps, with the opposite slowest weapons ironically coming in 2nd with a high top range dps, but only 0.05 higher than the fast weapons. And on top of that, fast weapons which mostly likely will be imbued will have more opportunities to proc, more opportunities to get off a combat skill, more opportunities to kill a running foe, etc. So please take this information as you will, it could save you some work in the long run <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />-Bluu

Gaige

03-12-2010, 06:14 AM

No. Scouts want 4 delay weapons.

Bluu

03-12-2010, 07:30 AM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>No. Scouts want 4 delay weapons.</blockquote>Why, exactly?

FearDiadh

03-12-2010, 07:54 AM

1. 4 second weapons give you time between swings for combat arts. You can time your CAs so that you do not miss any possible swings. 1.6 weapons will be hasted to 1.0 for most people which would not let you time your CAs in this manner.2. There is also the crit factor. If you have a very high crit chance, you will want weapons with high end damage and a nice spread between the min/max. If your crit is not that high, then the smaller spread higher dr weapon would get you slightly more dps if it were not for point 1.

Bluu

03-12-2010, 08:56 AM

Thank you for that info. Does any other scout agree with this? If so I think I'll buy me some 4-seconders <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

PeterJohn

03-12-2010, 09:45 AM

<cite>Bluua@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I did my own research, at about level 32 I listed the ranges (dmg and delay) of ALL the Feysteel weapons, and found that there are only four different delays. (listed damage on top, delay on bottom) They are: 10-38/1.6, 18-71/3, 24-95/4, and 30-119/5. I simply divided those values up to get two values (the range DPS) of each particular weapon, so in this case, the higher the DPS, the better. Here are the results:10-38/1.6 = 6.25 to 23.75 dps18-71/3 = 6 to 23.6 dps24-95/4 = 6 to 23.75 dps30-119/5 = 6 to 23.8 dps</blockquote>Now let's take into account that you have a 100% crit chance and zero crit bonus. On a crit, your weapon now does between maxdamage+1 to maxdamage*1.3, so now we have39-49/1.6 = 24.37 to 30.62 dps72-92/3 = 24 to 30.66 dps96-123/4 = 24 to 30.75120-154/5 = 24 to 30.8 dpsThis makes it apparent that when you crit, the higher delay and bigger spread weapons are doing more dps. As you gradually increase your crit chance from zero up to 100%, the benefit gradually shifts as noted. Throw in a few crit bonus percents, and the difference becomes even more noticeable.Edit: Hmm, though the average damage for the low reuse weapon is actually higher in this case... Hmm.

thecynic315

03-12-2010, 11:18 AM

<cite>Bluua@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thank you for that info. Does any other scout agree with this? If so I think I'll buy me some 4-seconders <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Yep, just about all of us agree on the 4.0s thing

Dareena

03-12-2010, 11:20 AM

Yes, there is a reason that the Devs have made almost all of the scout end game weapons in T8 and T9 with a 4.0 delay. By the general scout majority, that's the ideal weapon delay available.

Striikor

03-12-2010, 01:58 PM

It is even more important for Rangers because we have the slowest casting CA's and <4secs would interupt or delay autoattack on a regular basis (not a good thing).

Chanson

03-16-2010, 02:12 PM

As was stated earlier, you are more likely to delay your weapons auto-attack with combat arts/spells when it is a very fast weapon like 1.6. Let's look at the numbers you provided:<ul><li>10-38/1.6 = 6.25 to 23.75 dps</li><li>24-95/4 = 6 to 23.75 dps</li></ul>Let's assume you are casting combat arts/spells between swings and with the faster weapons you delay your weapon on average by 1/4 of a second. This would give us a new dps rating:<ul><li>10-38/1.85 = 5.4 to 20.5 dps</li></ul>Also consider that procs are normalized against weapon speed. So although it's true there are more chances for a high speed weapon to trigger a proc, each swing has a lower percentage chance of proccing. I.E. if a proc is supposed to trigger 2 times per minute, then a 1.6 second delay weapon should have roughly 5.3% chance of triggering the proc with every swing, whereas a 4 second delay weapons would have roughly 13.3% chance of triggering. This is based on a one minute fight giving a 1.6 second delay weapon 37.5 swings vs. a 4 second delay weapon swinging 15 times.<ul><li>37.5 swings x 5.3% chance = 200% chance of proccing over one minute or 2 procs per minute.</li><li>15 swings x 13.3% chance = 200% chance of proccing over one minute or 2 procs per minute.</li></ul>Now as was stated earlier, you will likely get several delays in your auto-attack if you are using a faster weapon. Let's say again over the course of the fight you delay your swings on average 1/4 of a second.<ul><li>32.4 swings x 5.3% chance = 173% chance of proccing over one minute or 1.73 procs per minute.</li></ul>So your math may be correct if you ONLY auto-attack and do not cast spells or combat arts. As soon as you start doing anything that can delay your auto-attack, the slower weapons that are less likely to be delayed really start to come ahead.

mook85az

03-25-2010, 06:11 AM

Slower weapons have an advantage in critical damage too. The wider the damage spread (found on slower weapons), the more of your swings will be rounded up to max+1 damage. This is only really important for a little while, like from 70 to 85. Once you hit 100% crit and start adding on crit bonus, about 20 or so, the advantage disappears because no hits will come in under max+1 damage. But it is another thing to consider until you get crit bonus up.

Solarax

05-05-2010, 01:18 AM

Rocc

05-05-2010, 01:26 AM

I use to agree with the slower weapon formula for my zerker and ranger. But recently on test I must reevaluate this because of autoattack changes. Gear that procs and adornments that proc damage are doing more dps than CA's. With that said I think my new focus is going to be on proc gear, fast weapons and haste.To truly evaluate this you should parse a level 90 toon on testcopy. You get full mastered, gear that procs and adornments. Haste, double attack and other stats will change between 250 AA's on a ranger versus 250 AA's on an assassin. You to be impartial you must post an average of the combined stats and combined parse rates while duel wielding similar weapons.Old Man Dave on the Halas docks will buff you to 90 so you can properly test this.

Raahl

05-06-2010, 10:29 AM

If you were only doing Auto Attack damage you'd be right. But pretty much the 4s delay rule is solidly researched and played out.Cool to see your number though.

Raahl

05-06-2010, 10:30 AM

BTW I'm almost afraid to say, I have forgotten the rule and am wielding weapons I shouldn't with my Ranger and Dirge. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

glowsintheda

05-08-2010, 01:50 AM

Unless you are going all hard core and actually using melee auto and jouting in while melee cas are going then backing back out to 5m for ranged attacks it really doesn't matter what your melee wep delay is as a ranger, for all intents and purposes they may as well be symbols

Lethe5683

05-10-2010, 04:24 PM

<cite>glowsinthedark wrote:</cite><blockquote>Unless you are going all hard core and actually using melee auto and jouting in while melee cas are going then backing back out to 5m for ranged attacks it really doesn't matter what your melee wep delay is as a ranger, for all intents and purposes they may as well be symbols</blockquote>Using melee autoattack as a ranger isn't hardcore... it's just stupid. And you don't need to joust to use melee CAs and ranged CAs/autoattack at the same time.

glowsintheda

05-10-2010, 10:29 PM

now that melee auto actually does more DPS for a ranger then ranged auto there are some people that joust in to do their melee CAs and do melee auto then step back out to do ranged CAs and ranged auto... it seems like more effort then it is really worth to me but some people are doing it.

Lethe5683

05-10-2010, 11:08 PM

<cite>glowsinthedark wrote:</cite><blockquote>now that melee auto actually does more DPS for a ranger then ranged auto there are some people that joust in to do their melee CAs and do melee auto then step back out to do ranged CAs and ranged auto... it seems like more effort then it is really worth to me but some people are doing it.</blockquote>I don't know about that, seems unlikely that melee AA can do more DPS than ranged unless you are counting melee only procs like CoB. If so maybe thats why rangers seem to be doing so poorly, even more so than usual.

glowsintheda

05-11-2010, 12:57 AM

training dummy melee auto will suposidly out parse ranged auto, plus all our ranged only procs, I haven't personally tried this, but will give it a shot and post the results.

Upir

05-11-2010, 05:21 PM

Yes, the melee only aa damage will come out ahead of the ranged only aa damage on dummy parses, but I have yet to see anyone post up any parses on raid mobs to prove its a more viable option. Considering I've had parses where makeshift, quickshot, and wounding shot have made up 6k-8k+ of my dps, I doubt the melee weapons are making up that kind of loss for swapping to melee over ranged.If you can show me the numbers, by all means, prove me wrong

Striikor

05-13-2010, 11:16 AM

I use joust with melee aa on zones with lots of adds, on most named's I do not. It is tough to beat flurry, weapon and other melee procs that happen only off melee when dealing with large groups of mobs. I also run a spec with surrounding attacks (part of my solo spec) if I know I am going into a mob heavy zone. I see no advantage jousting to melee on single mobs unless soloing.

jjlo69

05-14-2010, 03:11 AM

i tested melee auto attack vs ranged alot in beta and still look at it in live from time to timeheres what i found.just melee auto attack(with out flurry or ae auto attack) was about the same as ranged auto attack.flurry and or ae auto attack is where the danage output for auto attack become unbalanced between melee and ranged auto attacks... looking at our labs parse tonight our brusiers 8810.16 ext melee dps consisted of 3616.38 double attack, 1052.61 flurry, 166.24 ae auto attack. 4835.23 was the total out put of specail attacks for the brusier in question. his total melee attack break down zone wideTYPE DAMAGE EXT DPS AVERAGE MIN HIT MAX HIT RESIST HITS CRIT % SWINGS TO HIT % slash 8,105,565 8,810.40 16,712.51 2,432 29,994 slashing 485 99% 553 87.70 now for mine im a ranger using the best bow in the game currentlymy ranged auto attack ext dps was only 7197.93 consisted of 3251.83 ranged double attack double attack was my only specal attack ext dps.. before ppl ask why was my ext auto attack so low to begin with with the best bow in the game easy answer is shown below...my total break down zone wideTYPE DAMAGE EXT DPS AVERAGE MIN HIT MAX HIT RESIST HITS CRIT % SWINGS TO HIT % crush 6,622,092 7,197.93 24,435.76 4,919 48,122 crushing 271 99% 297 91.25 not only did i lose 1200 ext dps due to flurry and ae auto attack but the brusier was able to hit with melee 214 more times then me.also and i have bugged this but there is also a bug in ranged double atack if i have 95% double attack i can melee double attack 100% of the time; however, when i use ranged auto attack ill do 80% ranged auto attack so that is bugged also...Uncle

Prestissimo

05-25-2010, 08:13 PM

If you have low to 0 crit bonus and low to 0 crit chance (I.E. low level toon still leveling up), get low spread, fast attack speed. (at the low levels, the low speed actually perform much better since hit rates are high and procs/DA/etc are rare, and the mobs die easily which means you're not waiting on a 4 second delay or wasting power to land that last 10 damage to kill the mob.)If you have low crit bonus, but max crit chance, high spread and delay to taste.If you have high crit bonus, any amount of crit chance, go low spread and delay to taste.Auto attacks need to be landing every chance they can because:<ul><li>auto attacks cause procs.</li><li>they are "free damage" in that you do not spend any power to get that damage so you conserve power which is almost never a bad thing</li><li>depending on your buffage, flurry and double attack will dramatically increase your damage with every successful attack that lands.</li></ul><div>For these reasons, in order to maximize your damage, you need to be landing all the auto attacks you can first and foremost. A 0.05 increase to dps is skittles compared to the amount you lose when you inadvertently stop your auto attacks by delaying it with your CAs.</div><div></div><div>Because of the gain/loss related to auto attack speed and ability to perform combat arts without botching your proc rate and auto attack landing as frequently as possible, the 4.0 speed was addopted as one of the ideal attack speeds. Power use concerns and different length casting times are what solidified it from the other viable speeds as the ideal speed, and the majority of scouts are well settled into this speed.</div><div></div><div>I'm use to 6.0 second for my paladin (although that will likely change to 4 second when I get a better weapon than my mythical), my warden is use to a really fast attack speed (which will change when I find something with better heal stats), and my troub is use to 4 second delays (which probably wont change because of the well established 4.0 delay standard.) All methods are equally as viable, it just matters how much you use your auto attack, proc, flurry, and double attack damage over your abilities.</div>