Will massive spell haste/reuse affect negatively druids? [Archive]

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Odys

03-12-2010, 03:08 AM

I m a bit worried about that, for sure we can already recast our HOT before they are completed, and we probably all do that since the 1st tick is quite big. With the massice haste/reuse on level 90 legendary (vd 3 stuff as example) all priests will cast faster, but the benefit will be much larger for slow caster than for druids. Iw we recast a hot spell beofe completion we don get twice the healing power but quite less.I m very surprised by this haste choice, under cacophony or with compression i already spam like a mad fae, logs show that i do cast twie more than a templar (hum may be 2.5 -3 more). At level 90 it will be simply crazy, moreover the gap with plate/mail healers will enlarge.Quite far from what Aeralik swore about druids, he pretended that he wanted to push them up.

StaticLex

03-12-2010, 04:38 AM

You should tell me wherever you're finding this massive reuse gear because I haven't really found squat in SF. I run around and 20% reuse all the time and can swap an item to get to 25 if needed. I would like to be even higher though.

StaticLex

03-12-2010, 04:41 AM

<cite>Odys@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>..but the benefit will be much larger for slow caster than for druids.</blockquote>Also I forgot this..OMFGIt is a percentage! A percentaaaaaaaaaaaaage! Do you understand math?

Hene

03-12-2010, 04:46 AM

I think the main advantage of Reuse speed for druids will come from group heals; having the grp HoT running all the time will do a good bit for your healing as it's HoT component is a bit larger than the ST HoT, helps recoup after an AE nicelyAs for any ST heals that refresh faster than they run out, you can start slapping them on multiple people, regening HP after or even before a destructive AE or AE dot even better than before. i.e. if you know a bad Ae is coming, now you can get a couple of HoTs going to decrease the direct spot healing needed afterwardsI think the benefit is only slightly restricted when it comes to ST healing, because the ST HoT is about the only thing that wont have significant gains in HPS from recasting it so soon

Pyra Shineflame

03-12-2010, 11:42 AM

<cite>StaticLex wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Odys@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>..but the benefit will be much larger for slow caster than for druids.</blockquote>Also I forgot this..OMFGIt is a percentage! A percentaaaaaaaaaaaaage! Do you understand math?</blockquote>I think he's looking at it a bit oddly. 20% off a 4 sec recast is still a bigger number than 20% off a 2 resec cast. But benefits are the same....all classes can only go to 50% reuse and no further. So if a druid can cast a heal every sec, there is little point to doing so as the bigger intial tick will be lost as the heal run time is longer than recast time.Shamans and Clerics don't have the mechanic, where the first heal counts for more, so they can rewrite their heals as many times as they want.

Odys

03-13-2010, 11:57 PM

Well itt seems that i have to explain the obvious.Assume you have a HOT healing 1K on the first tick and 1K on the other ones while another healer get a 2K heal (within the same time).If my haste is allowing me to cast it 10 times within a second (just an extreme example) i heal for 11K but the other priest will heal for 20K.

SailorOrion

03-15-2010, 03:57 AM

Ok let's see. As a Fury, I have 8 healing spells:overtimes:Single HOTGroup HOTdirects:Small DHstBig DHSpecial DH (Back into the Fray)delayed:HibernationEmergencies (oh [Removed for Content])SingleGroupAll of those profit hugely from reuse speed, except the single HOT. Our biggest "weapon" is the group HOT. With a decent spec, it has a 7.5 second duration. With capped reuse and spell cast you can cast it every 6 + 1.5 + 0.5 = 8 seconds. The only spell that only benefits marginally is the that single HOT...Ardra

Eugam

03-15-2010, 10:11 AM

The answer is simple. Solo heal a moderate instance like research halls. In the middle of the zone drop an item with like 5.2% recast timer. See the difference. Its feels like someone pulled the plug <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Personally i cant get enough of them. Soloing or as backup heal i can now nonstop rotate through my spells or CAs. Short.. its awesome and i need a bit more...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Tehom

03-15-2010, 06:44 PM

Technically casting haste doesn't benefit everyone equally because of two factors - recovery time (the 0.5 second delay tacked on between casts) and, more importantly, lag. Unless your server is a ghost town you'll normally have between a half to a second delay during good conditions, which isn't modified by anything. I think lag has to become a stronger game balance consideration, but their reaction to it is usually to just cover their ears with their hands and sing loudly to pretend it doesn't exist.That said, I think druids are in immensely better shape this expansion than previous, and they're basically fine. I think shamans are a bit overpowered right now in that we can easily solo-heal groups much more safely than anyone else could on difficult fights, but the nature of most harder fights generally encourages you to healer stack anyway (charms, banishes, incurable status effects, etc), and I think shaman/druid is just fine now. We've had a few raids where we don't have clerics at all, and it really hasn't been a big deal.

LardLord

03-16-2010, 11:03 PM

Priests are about as balanced as I can remember in this game. The massive amounts of casting haste hurts Inqs too, since our heal stance and mythical both buff that instead of better things...doesn't make a huge difference in practice though really.EDIT: All the crit bonus this expansion isn't really fair to warders...but again, not a big difference in practice.

Eugam

03-17-2010, 09:04 AM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Priests are about as balanced as I can remember in this game. The massive amounts of casting haste hurts Inqs too, since our heal stance and mythical both buff that instead of better things...doesn't make a huge difference in practice though really.EDIT: All the crit bonus this expansion isn't really fair to warders...but again, not a big difference in practice.</blockquote>It evens out quite well for shamans. All those heals and damage bonus on the AA cure line increase heal or damage. Ancient Balm casts a ward to. There is much more "casted heal" now for the Mystic. Since there is so much to cure this is nice on heroic content. Maybe on raids too, but i have no numbers because i dont raid.

Hene

03-17-2010, 09:52 PM

<cite>Eugam wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Priests are about as balanced as I can remember in this game. The massive amounts of casting haste hurts Inqs too, since our heal stance and mythical both buff that instead of better things...doesn't make a huge difference in practice though really.EDIT: All the crit bonus this expansion isn't really fair to warders...but again, not a big difference in practice.</blockquote>It evens out quite well for shamans. All those heals and damage bonus on the AA cure line increase heal or damage. Ancient Balm casts a ward to. There is much more "casted heal" now for the Mystic. Since there is so much to cure this is nice on heroic content. Maybe on raids too, but i have no numbers because i dont raid.</blockquote>The AA cure line does almost nothing in practice. I have not seen it do more than a couple of percent of my heal parse (in solo, group, or raid content), ever. Also, there are no 'heal' bonuses on the AA cure line for mystics.

Odys

03-18-2010, 04:28 PM

Well currently i think that druids are fine, but the itemization will benefit much more to my mystic. Since many fightsare long the infinite mana that warden do have is a nice asset. In vasty deep 2 my mystic sucked totally since she got OOM, my warden would had done much better than her. The Hot part of our heals will keep an unchanged HPS since we can already maintain them all. So the only HPS that will be increased with haste and reuse is the first tick. Clearly there big heal will benefit more. I now don't care much about haste but rather about ability re-use it seems less easy to get.Last, with the ridiculous amount of + crit my warden don't even need the 20% from the druid tree, she still needs to waste points there to get the final talent (serenity or turtle). My mystic who had rather low critical % will reach 100 easily once she hit 90. So here again the gap in crit % which was around 20-30% will be removed. So here again my mystic is getting a higher benefit.

Laylle

03-18-2010, 05:48 PM

<cite>Odys@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>At level 90 it will be simply crazy, moreover the gap with plate/mail healers will enlarge.</blockquote>Spell 'reuse' is quite lacking in SF. My reuse has gone *down* with the newer gear. My cast speed on the other hand now sits around 70-80% and I quite like it. While our HoTs can be nice (and I keep mine up 100% of the time) druids will always be more of a reactionary healer. Being able to get a quick heal off 'that much' quicker after a big AoE to bring eveyones HP back up hasn't hurt at all.

Laylle

03-18-2010, 05:57 PM

<cite>Odys@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>Last, with the ridiculous amount of + crit my warden don't even need the 20% from the druid tree, she still needs to waste points there to get the final talent (serenity or turtle).</blockquote>Serenity; Though I don't feel that its really worth speccing for. I used to have it in my 'raid' spec, but the recast always hurt a lot of its utility. I wish Serene Knoledge got a boost instead, 9s vs 3s for the buff would make it amazingly useful. I don't have Serenity in either of my current specs. :/

mafoe

04-16-2010, 08:54 AM

if you cast "3 times more than a templar" (however you measured that I dont wanna know), your templar sucks.

Lark42

11-05-2010, 06:44 PM

I think most of you are totally off-topic from what the OP was talking about.I believe the OP is referring to issues with casting a regen while the regen is already active.For example - a Ward or Reactive can be "used up" before you can recast the same ward/reactive again. A regen, however, will run its course over the same time period and cannot be "used up" before the same ability refreshes.With increases in "Reuse Speed", there is more potential for regens to overlap than there are for wards/reactives to overlap, since wards/reactives can be used up before the spell refreshes.In effect, overlapping a heal "wastes" a portion of the same heal you cast earlier.To address your original question OP -- I think that increases in spell haste/reuse will have a smaller impact on the healing potential of Druids due to the overlap effect I discussed earlier. While Clerics/Shamans have the same issues with overlapping a heal, they can have their wards/reactives "used up" before the ability refreshes again, allowing them to avoid overlap and provide greater healing potential.

Gisallo

11-27-2010, 04:31 PM

U lost me there friend, that argument I think washes out in the rinse. If my ward as been used up before the end of its duration, the smaller HoT ticks will likely be used up (for lack of a better word) by the tragets death (at least in raids). I thought that was why raiding druids often overwrote their regens already, to get that bigger initial tick. The OP did also note how this would have an effect on the other classes who traditionally suffer from longer reuse times. That said you can't reduce the reuse of an ability by more than 50% so I don't see how it creates an issue!

NolaDragon

12-02-2010, 11:32 AM

<cite>Galibier@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>U lost me there friend, that argument I think washes out in the rinse. If my ward as been used up before the end of its duration, the smaller HoT ticks will likely be used up (for lack of a better word) by the tragets death (at least in raids). I thought that was why raiding druids often overwrote their regens already, to get that bigger initial tick. The OP did also note how this would have an effect on the other classes who traditionally suffer from longer reuse times. That said you can't reduce the reuse of an ability by more than 50% so I don't see how it creates an issue!</blockquote>I think your missing the mechanics of how a ward differs from a hot. A ward is basically a shield (in hp #'s) from the caster to the target at the time it is casted. And its totally separate from the targets health pool and always gets used before their health does. A Hot on the other hand is Hp directly to their Health pool in increments over a period of time.The better word ,rather than used up , would be wasted. A ward would never be wasted by the targets death , only if it expires without getting used , or if overwritten.A hot can be wasted by death ,full health pool, and overwriteing.The Hot suffers from spell reuse/cast speed ... because it does not deliver its heal potential any faster after the initial tick. Leaving time compression out of the equasion.If there is High dmg incomming ... Direct heals,wards,reactives benefit from spell reuse/cast speed ... the second half of a Hot will never benefit from them , because they havent arrived in the targets health pool yet to match the incomming dmg. And every heal a warden has is a Hot.But ofcourse thats always been the nature of the warden and our weakness is spike dmg. Giving us a bigger initial tick on our main hots helped , and spell reuse/cast speed does help us with spike dmg also at the cost of less efficient healing. I guess on paper it makes some cringe ... but in practical use with how much pwr we seem to have , I dont really see it as a problem imo.

Gisallo

12-06-2010, 05:11 PM

Your last paragraph was what I was trying to articulate. On most hm fights I am not sitting there waiting for a ward to expire, I am "inefficiently" <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> spamming my wardsto make sure a full strength ward is up to take the hit and get ward procs off my gear. While it is perhaps not elegant, it seems that due to the bigger initial tick, taking advantage of the increased reuse is necessary. The only other option would be some serious retooling of the druids.

Oakum

02-03-2011, 11:53 AM

Any spell reuse is nice for druids upto the max percent rate IF you are spam healing due to the toughness of the zone or a fury that is dpsing. Remember the 50 percent cap and someone in other forum threads said that the aa stances are figured into that amount too. (TSO heal stance) Now if you are not spam healing due to big aoes/detrimentals coming in all the time they are less important. Now if you are a warden, you might as well have two seperate gear sets. One for dpsing/proc healing for lighter healing times and one healer heavy, spell reuse set.But if the raid doesnt need 3 healers in a group and shaman and clerics are available, as a warden be prepared to sit for the good of the raid.

Lark42

02-04-2011, 09:16 PM

If your Wards aren't ever going down because the mob never breaks them and you are always overlapping them then you are wasting your own power/time and every other healers power/time. If the mob can't break the Wards, then the tank is never taking damage. If the tank never takes damage, then the other heals are simply going to waste and you are blocking other healers from being effective. Essentially, you are "over-warding" the tank.This is exactly why Shamans often appear to be the "best healers" on the parse. It's not that they have crazy healing output. It's that the mobs can't break through the massive wall of wards that keep being reapplied, effectively rendering other forms of healing useless.Next time you notice the tank isn't really in danger of dying, stop constantly reapplying wards!!! Do something actually useful: Go offensive stance, start attacking the mob (if you are a Mystic, you should already be doing this as often as possible), and cast debuffs (you are remembering to debuff, aren't you?). The other healers will thank you as they will finally be represented properly on the parse and you will have sped up the raid a bit because you are contributing to damage.<cite>Galibier@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your last paragraph was what I was trying to articulate. On most hm fights I am not sitting there waiting for a ward to expire, I am "inefficiently" <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> spamming my wardsto make sure a full strength ward is up to take the hit and get ward procs off my gear. While it is perhaps not elegant, it seems that due to the bigger initial tick, taking advantage of the increased reuse is necessary. The only other option would be some serious retooling of the druids.</blockquote>

Prestissimo

02-12-2011, 09:39 AM

The loss of additional HOT ticks can be made up for with procs and if you're a smart warden you already are doing this since in practical use, the initial HOT ticks and some points from the subsequent ticks of HOTs + procs from gear > using all ticks of a HOT. TBH, by the time you reach the point where your reuse is costing you the final ticks of your HOT, you should have had access to proc gear that will for the most part completely make up those lost ticks. If you're really having trouble keeping the tank alive, either request a troubador for harmonization, or expect to get replaced by a shaman or cleric.If you're trying to count every tick of your HOTs or are banking on landing every point and tick of even one of your HOTs in SF content then you're playing the warden wrong or you are expecting something that just wont happen any day soon and it is extremely likely that wont happen in velious either. You will likely never get even your single target HOT to land every last heal point let alone your healstorm or even winds of healing. Since wards always get used first and theres often too little damage dealt to get to the point of using much of your HOTs healing power, just try to layer up as many ward procs as you can without gimping your ability to restore health quickly on demand.Druids specialize in restoring tons of health very quickly when you layer up those heals and can spank the clerics and shamen, but thats under the assumption there is health needing to be restored that they are not already covering and that the damage is being dealt steadily and not killing anyone with one shots. With toons getting tougher coupled with wards/reactives getting larger and raid mobs hitting for much larger single shots rather than spread out small hits, the warden is getting less usefull on raids which leaves the warden with little other choice than instance running or in raids to proc up as many wards as possible so you can at least get some points of heals to do something other than tick for 0.On a side note, I perfer to be a pure healer and will often times solo heal groups even in the casual raids assuming folks have enough health to avoid being one shotted and the reason for this is so that I can spam heals and it actually be the healing for the group because I am wearing the <a href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/812964204" target="_blank">Ritual Talisman of Fate</a> which although it has REALLY bad stats, that proc is up literally every single second of every single battle I'm in, and TBH that proc strongly outweighs pretty much anything else I can use in that slot that I have access to at this point. On raids that I'm healing in, that single item will add anywhere from 2k up to another 10k dps to the parse.

Lark42

02-14-2011, 05:40 PM

@OraiThere are already issues with healing classes relying too much on the contribution of gear procs for heals. And we aren't talking just "any heal proc"---> Ward procs specifically are what EVERY healer emphasizes in high end content. This comes back to the issue of healing mechanics issues with respect to wards. Wards receive the highest-priority of all heals and are capable of "blocking" other incoming heals for the reasons mentioned earlier. When all the healing classes are gathering tons of ward proc gear, Wards begin to switch from the "dominant" form of healing to the "exclusive" form of healing. This is exactly why the Developers thought it appropriate to half the effect of crit-bonus on Wards and why they are considering removing ward proc gear from Velious!And for those who are interested, my main is a Mystic! I am not hating on any class or trying to say any particular class is not capable of healing effectively. The issue we are discussing isn't that of "healing capability". It's the MECHANICAL issue associated with Wards.

Oakum

02-15-2011, 01:33 AM

<cite>Lark42 wrote:</cite><blockquote>@OraiThere are already issues with healing classes relying too much on the contribution of gear procs for heals. And we aren't talking just "any heal proc"---> Ward procs specifically are what EVERY healer emphasizes in high end content. This comes back to the issue of healing mechanics issues with respect to wards. Wards receive the highest-priority of all heals and are capable of "blocking" other incoming heals for the reasons mentioned earlier. When all the healing classes are gathering tons of ward proc gear, Wards begin to switch from the "dominant" form of healing to the "exclusive" form of healing. This is exactly why the Developers thought it appropriate to half the effect of crit-bonus on Wards and why they are considering removing ward proc gear from Velious!And for those who are interested, my main is a Mystic! I am not hating on any class or trying to say any particular class is not capable of healing effectively. The issue we are discussing isn't that of "healing capability". It's the MECHANICAL issue associated with Wards.</blockquote>You really cant change the mechanic of wards hitting first, reactives second, dh and regens last. That is not going to change. Typically you will almost always see the shaman with the highest heal parse, clerics second, and druids last (provided everyone in the raid is taking constant damage and therefore there is something to heal) and I am okay with that.As long as the developers put ward procs on gears, all healers are going to go for them since we know the order heals land in and essentially soaking up damage and it never hitting will always be better then hoping group/raid members dont get one shotted or almost killed and can be healed up afterwards before the next attack hits and finishes the job.Essentially nothing has changed in the last 4 years for healers except which cleric or shaman is the FOM class and which druid is at the bottom, lol. I do not think that druids, wardens especially will ever get anything to make a RL want to have two wardens or furys instead of 4 shaman, 3 clerics and a fury for a normal 8 healer (2 per group) raid doing challenging but not too easy content. Maybe I will be surprised with the expansion, somehow I doubt it, lol.And for anyone who reads this, DONT GET HOOKED ON RAID HEAL PARSES. They are always skewed by the MT group taking the most damage usually and the healers with the worst geared groups will always have a higher heal parse then ones in the "good" better geared groups. Clerics buffs are not shown on heal parses either usually like shield ally which blocks blows, ect and you cant see the effects of other clerics buffs on the heal parse either since some of them are offensive and will show on someone elses dps parse. That is why they are the second choice for any groups healer but the mage with shaman being first in all and a fury being the mage group. Those mages love their multiple group cures. lol.

Yure

02-17-2011, 03:07 PM

Orignal topic, yes reuse is a issue for HOTS. Primary single targets being to ones the issue is most noticable on.Since Rollover hots idea died during TSO to SF how about different method.When a certain % of Heath is lost by the target of the hot it would tigger remaining Ticks and expire the hot. So say the tank drops 62% the last 3 ticks of (regrowth / Photosynthesis) will trigger at once.

Odys

03-04-2011, 12:19 AM

<cite>Yure wrote:</cite><blockquote>Orignal topic, yes reuse is a issue for HOTS. Primary single targets being to ones the issue is most noticable on.Since Rollover hots idea died during TSO to SF how about different method.When a certain % of Heath is lost by the target of the hot it would tigger remaining Ticks and expire the hot. So say the tank drops 62% the last 3 ticks of (regrowth / Photosynthesis) will trigger at once.</blockquote>Sound nice.After a year i can confirm that my intuition was correct, the impact of SF gear was quite higher on my mystic, an enormous 1,5 (?? may be less) transcendance. My warden was extremelly welcome in heroic content, especially hard one (.i.e at the beginning of SF) and i raided 8/10 with the mystic -- since raids need warders --DOV is not likely to bring any change, i have not even zoned yet in Velious, the fact that warden were not even mentionned in the update note explain my lack of enthusiasm.

Yure

03-06-2011, 10:25 AM

<cite>Odys@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Yure wrote:</cite><blockquote>Orignal topic, yes reuse is a issue for HOTS. Primary single targets being to ones the issue is most noticable on.Since Rollover hots idea died during TSO to SF how about different method.When a certain % of Heath is lost by the target of the hot it would tigger remaining Ticks and expire the hot. So say the tank drops 62% the last 3 ticks of (regrowth / Photosynthesis) will trigger at once.</blockquote>Sound nice.After a year i can confirm that my intuition was correct, the impact of SF gear was quite higher on my mystic, an enormous 1,5 (?? may be less) transcendance. My warden was extremelly welcome in heroic content, especially hard one (.i.e at the beginning of SF) and i raided 8/10 with the mystic -- since raids need warders --DOV is not likely to bring any change, i have not even zoned yet in Velious, the fact that warden were not even mentionned in the update note explain my lack of enthusiasm.</blockquote>After working through DOV Raid content for nearly 2 weeks on my Warden. Found there is aleast attempt at balancing the encounters towards druids. Large number of Elemental aoes and uncureable dots that last for a while and cut through Wards.

Odys

03-13-2011, 02:04 PM

Well this won't last, Xelgar plays a defiler and ideas to use our overheal to refill reactives or ward, or ideas to trigger all our ticks under some condtition are gone.I also saw a lot of mobs (heroics) tripling or quadding, that means super spiky damage. Spiky damage can be countered by cleric and shaman, not by druids.

Ferunnia

03-14-2011, 02:45 AM

As long as people aren't getting one-shotted and you don't suck healing on a druid is obscenely easy. I don't see what the griping is about. I know buffwise wardens have a reason to whine some but really on healing? You still have the heroic healing scene on total lockdown. Both druids rock for heroic crap. Raidwise it's annoying sometimes for people to die before you can get a heal off...but to be honest even there it's about reaction speed and being [Removed for Content] near psychic. Watching mobs' cast timers helps a crap-ton too...Or wait, maybe the devs could give wardens some ability that allows them to spam all their heals so they don't even have to pay attention to anything else if they choose not to! Oh wait...

Odys

03-15-2011, 04:26 AM

<cite>Elhonna@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>As long as people aren't getting one-shotted and you don't suck healing on a druid is obscenely easy. I don't see what the griping is about. I know buffwise wardens have a reason to whine some but really on healing? You still have the heroic healing scene on total lockdown. Both druids rock for heroic crap. Raidwise it's annoying sometimes for people to die before you can get a heal off...but to be honest even there it's about reaction speed and being [Removed for Content] near psychic. Watching mobs' cast timers helps a crap-ton too...Or wait, maybe the devs could give wardens some ability that allows them to spam all their heals so they don't even have to pay attention to anything else if they choose not to! Oh wait...</blockquote>I wonder if replying to little beavis trolling there is wise, probably not <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Oh sure, so that's why people want a defiler for most instances. Cast timer ? Laughing .... there is not cast timer on mob auto attack that triple or quadruple for 12000 (total 36000 to 48000).If you were playing a shaman and a druid you would for sure know that pre SF it was much easier to solo heal with a druid. Post SF casting speed, reuse, red adornment on group heal make it way easier with a shaman.Last time i grouped with a defiler he grandly used two buttons, 30% of his parse was passive (ancestral autority, group rune, dog, proc), and his two wards mde most of the rest.Dual boxers usually take a shaman, preferly a defiler.