Thank You SOE Devrs [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Troy

03-08-2010, 10:53 PM

Guys - Gals - don't flame me for this plz.I want to thank the devrs for actually improving our class finally.I'm your average t3-t4 fabled set jewled raid monk and since SF I see a great improvement in my ability to MT - never get one shotted now - my DPS is much higher and i can survive in a group while the others die and get rezed and die - I can keep the fight alive - and I can hold mulitiple mobs with ease. When I log on - I am actually getting asked to MT a group thru the Hole and some of the instances.I know there are still many issues - but I am having a much better time playing the monk than I have in the past year since TSO.Thank You SOE Devrs for finally listening and fixing a few things that mattered.

Ambrin

03-10-2010, 02:30 AM

I agree we have seen some vast improvements (although I would still like to see some more here and there). Last night I was in the Vigilant x2 on the name that summon crystals (has 33% strike-through on a buff). Somehow our entire raid (except me) got wiped by an AoE, I was able to pop into defensive stance and hit Tsunami and rez the raid - we killed the mob that pull.Today we were doing the Perah'Celsis raid and I was playing the role of the off-tank for Sara Greenheart (spawns adds, has a tank switch). We had a paladin who was in roughly equal gear to me. Comparing the parses after the mob...Mob swung at me 504 times dealing 1923 DPS to me (55.75% avoidance I had no stoneskins). I generated 381 HPS for myself (188 HPS from Outward Calm). Meditative Mending procced 4 times for a total of 19 HPS. I did 9783 DPS and the paladin did 7443 DPS. My group was Monk (me), Mystic, Coercer, Assassin (we were running real low on people tonight).Mob swung at the paladin 486 times dealing 1897 DPS (45.1% avoidance including stoneskins). The paladin generated 281 HPS for himself. Paladin was in a traditional MT group consisting of Paladin, Defiler, Templar, Dirge, Coercer, Swashbuckler.The paladin had my avoidance, but I only avoided 5% of his attacks (no idea why this was so low).This may be an easy mob (and the only one I was in a tank role for during our stay in the zone) but I very much want to try more comparisons with me tanking to see if this was just a fluke with the mob or something else (paladin running offensive stance, just a lucky parse, etc) or if brawlers really have been given a larger leg-up in tanking than some may have expected.

circusgirl

03-10-2010, 02:46 AM

I've been noticing really low avoidance from Tranquil Vision, even when the tank's avoidance is quite low. I have no idea what's going on there, but I certainly don't like it.

Silzin

03-10-2010, 11:36 AM

I think one big changes that ppl are not realizing is that big is the strike-through immunity we have. so in your example Austin your 55.75 avoidance is real, but the paly’s is really closer to about 30% after strike-through, and do to contested/uncontested avoidence it is probably much larger of a difference.

circusgirl

03-10-2010, 11:59 AM

It sounded to me like those numbers were from an ACT report, in which case they're measuring the blows he ACTUALLY avoided, not just looking at his avoidance window.Does TV have a chance to fire on a strikethrough? If not, it really, really should.

BChizzle

03-10-2010, 01:48 PM

It is funny you are celebrating 56%. Sorry but that is nothing special and any decently geared plate tank can beat that easy, you should be more in the 70-80% range.

Ambrin

03-10-2010, 02:16 PM

I'm not celebrating it, but that is roughly were my current block + parry says I should be at. Remember, my group setup for this mob was me, mystic, assassin, coercer. That was my entire 4 man group (I did say we were short that night) so I was not receiving any of the defensive buffs (I did not have an avoidance transfer) you would normally expect to allow my avoidance to go up much higher.I dodged or the mob missed 2% of all attacks.I parried or riposted 15% of all attacks (5% parry, 10% riposte).I blocked 36% of all attacks.My base is listed as 48%, minimum block is approximately 40% (57.9% contested) and my parry is listed as 19.7%. Considering the mob was a 95x4 (might have been 96) the values I have for avoidance seem approximately were you would expect them to be (getting almost nothing from my contested avoidance leaving only my uncontested).I am completely open to suggestions on how I can improve my avoidance beyond were it is at now, but considering my group and the buffs I had, my avoidance appears to have been what my character sheet says it should have been. I am currently working towards the BG offhand with 10% block, but other than running with a better group and getting more of the raid tanking gear, I really don't see how I am going to improve my avoidance much higher over where it currently is (perhaps being more aggressive with using Tsunami / Bob and Weave instead of leaving them up for emergency scenarios).

circusgirl

03-10-2010, 03:03 PM

If your minimum block is 40%, then with strikethrough immunity you should be blocking 40% or more hits. I believe (I'm sure Bchiz can correct me if I'm wrong) that block is the first avoidance check you go through, so there's no reason I can think of for you to be showing less avoidance than your minimum block chance except an unlucky streak. To me it sounds like something is wrong here. You should be getting more than that.I would however like to do more than just trash your avoidance report ;p I have yet to find myself angry at the mechanics of my class this expansion, which says a lot. Strikethrough immunity goes a long ways towards making tanking less frustrating for me. We had our OT lag out for the duration of the giant fish in Peracelsis the other night, and I had no problems at all tanking him when he blurred off the MT. Same story with the Scavenator--and for that fight I felt like I either had tsunami, Bob & Weave, or my mitigation buffs up every time he blurred and I grabbed him. I've tanked most of the instances and had no problems there as well, though to be honest I'm not really sure that counts for much since I was overgeared in a group full of overgeared people. I have yet to try MTing raids for long durations, however, so I can't comment on whether we've improved at tanking in general or just as a snaptank.

Ambrin

03-10-2010, 03:06 PM

As I understand it, minimum block and parry are still contested versus mob level (instead of mob weapon skills versus player defensive skills), meaning the values you actually see for them should be slightly lower than what is listed, which corresponds to what I was seeing.

Couching

03-10-2010, 03:44 PM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>If your minimum block is 40%, then with strikethrough immunity you should be blocking 40% or more hits. I believe (I'm sure Bchiz can correct me if I'm wrong) that block is the first avoidance check you go through, so there's no reason I can think of for you to be showing less avoidance than your minimum block chance except an unlucky streak. To me it sounds like something is wrong here. You should be getting more than that.</blockquote>The order of avoidance check is parry/riposte > block >base.If his minimum block is 40%, he won't block over 40% of hits unless he didn't parry any hit.From his posts, 15% hits were parried and riposted and 36% hits were blocked. We can get his minimum block rate is about 42.3% in that fight.

circusgirl

03-10-2010, 03:54 PM

Thanks Couching, knowing that these numbers make more sense. If 15% of attacks are parried, then 85% of incoming attacks went through a block check. if 40% of those were avoided then that would mean .4*85=34%, so (assuming his minimum block is 40% like he said) he gained about 2% avoidance from his uncontested block. Not great given the plate tank's avoidance, but at least close to what we would expect given the calculations!

Ambrin

03-10-2010, 04:16 PM

I calculated my minimum block as 16+6+5=27% (16 base form defensive stance, 6 from Aversion AA, 5 from mythical). I than multiplied this value by 1.489 (my "block chance" is listed as 48.9) giving me a total of 40.203% minimum block.I do agree that this number is perhaps lower than it should be compared to the plate tanks.My personal suggestion for brawler avoidance would be this:* Remove all avoidance from our stances (with the exception of that granted from the Aversion AA).* Give all brawlers a 25% chance innate minimum block chance regardless of the stance we are in (puts our absolute minimum on par with plate tanks).* Move the 5% minimum block found on brawler mythical weapons and attach it to our mythical buff (allowing us to replace our mythical as a tanking weapon).* Move our immunity to strike-through from our defensive stance to our class stat buff (Inner Calm for monks, Bob and Weave for bruisers).* Make sure brawlers have access to "tanking weapons" with at least 20-25% block chance on them (to match what plate tanks get from some high end shields). The "Living Stone Cestus" is a good example of this( aITEM 1464270060 -894825733:[Living Stone Cestus]/a ).

circusgirl

03-10-2010, 04:32 PM

Personally, I think they should add +minimum block chance to more brawler items. Or, better yet, they should just make all block uncontested. >.>

BChizzle

03-10-2010, 07:13 PM

There is already enough block chance gear including weapons what we need is mit increase and physical resists gear.

circusgirl

03-10-2010, 09:33 PM

Plenty of +block chance, yes.+minimum block chance? Not so much. I'd be very happy to see more of that about.But yes, I agree, we need more +mitigation increase gear. It irks me to no end that apparently the devs have decided that +block chance and +mitigation increase are apparently equivalent and that they'll toss +6 mitigation increase on the plate raid gear and toss us +6 block chance as if they were equal.

circusgirl

03-11-2010, 03:44 AM

Hmm. Actually, I'm really enjoying tanking this expansion. It really seems like they created a lot of raid mobs that monks are just fantastic at snapping up. I've never been a fan of calling us "utility tanks" or any of that bull, but I'm definitely seeing a niche for the monk as the counter to memwipes. Flopping Sara back and forth between me and the SK was smooth as can be, picking up mobs like the scavenator and fish in pera is instant, and I can peel Pera'celsis off his curse targets before he has a chance to smoosh them. I feel pretty darn useful. Not to mention, the change from patterns to actual armor pieces benefits us a ton--It'll be a lot faster for me to gear up than it will be for our horde of plate tanks. It's not perfect, and as Blanka said we need more mit, but I'm happier as a monk than I've been in years.

BChizzle

03-11-2010, 06:53 PM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmm. Actually, I'm really enjoying tanking this expansion. It really seems like they created a lot of raid mobs that monks are just fantastic at snapping up. I've never been a fan of calling us "utility tanks" or any of that bull, but I'm definitely seeing a niche for the monk as the counter to memwipes. Flopping Sara back and forth between me and the SK was smooth as can be, picking up mobs like the scavenator and fish in pera is instant, and I can peel Pera'celsis off his curse targets before he has a chance to smoosh them. I feel pretty darn useful. Not to mention, the change from patterns to actual armor pieces benefits us a ton--It'll be a lot faster for me to gear up than it will be for our horde of plate tanks. It's not perfect, and as Blanka said we need more mit, but I'm happier as a monk than I've been in years.</blockquote>Glad you are happy but monks are still bottom of the tanking ladder.

Exordus

03-11-2010, 07:18 PM

For the first time in years i'm dusting off my level 70 Relic Gear Dirge to see if I can actually get into groups and raids once again. Monk will still be my leveling ho, shiny ho, etc. but it's just no fun anymore for me. Hard enough getting into groups as it is, then I see monk on my server in chat "looking for tank" for instances? No wonder ppl don't think we can tank.

Lethe5683

03-11-2010, 09:40 PM

<cite>Leere@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guys - Gals - don't flame me for this plz.I want to thank the dervs for actually improving our class finally.I'm your average t3-t4 fabled set jewled raid monk and since SF I see a great improvement in my ability to MT - never get one shotted now - my DPS is much higher and i can survive in a group while the others die and get rezed and die - I can keep the fight alive - and I can hold mulitiple mobs with ease. When I log on - I am actually getting asked to MT a group thru the Hole and some of the instances.I know there are still many issues - but I am having a much better time playing the monk than I have in the past year since TSO.Thank You SOE Dervs for finally listening and fixing a few things that mattered.</blockquote>I don't think improving brawlers a little bit while improving plate tanks TONS counts as improving our class, I would consider it more of a nerf really. Also, what are dervs?

Lethe5683

03-11-2010, 09:42 PM

<cite>Ambrin@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>My personal suggestion for brawler avoidance would be this:* Remove all avoidance from our stances (with the exception of that granted from the Aversion AA).* Give all brawlers a 25% chance innate minimum block chance regardless of the stance we are in (puts our absolute minimum on par with plate tanks).* Move the 5% minimum block found on brawler mythical weapons and attach it to our mythical buff (allowing us to replace our mythical as a tanking weapon).* Move our immunity to strike-through from our defensive stance to our class stat buff (Inner Calm for monks, Bob and Weave for bruisers).* Make sure brawlers have access to "tanking weapons" with at least 20-25% block chance on them (to match what plate tanks get from some high end shields). The "Living Stone Cestus" is a good example of this( aITEM 1464270060 -894825733:[Living Stone Cestus]/a ).</blockquote>That is exactly what needs to be done.<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Plenty of +block chance, yes.+minimum block chance? Not so much. I'd be very happy to see more of that about.But yes, I agree, we need more +mitigation increase gear. It irks me to no end that apparently the devs have decided that +block chance and +mitigation increase are apparently equivalent and that they'll toss +6 mitigation increase on the plate raid gear and toss us +6 block chance as if they were equal.</blockquote>Block chance increase minimum block chance too assuming you have any.

circusgirl

03-12-2010, 12:44 AM

I'm aware. But its very strange to have the stat basically available on one item and a buff and nothing else. I'd like more minimum block chance for my block chance to modify, thank you very much.From what I've seen of itemization so far, it looks like they are valuing +block chance as equal to +mitigation increase. If a brawler item has 6 block chance, the plate version has 6 mitigation increase, etc. Given that the two stats are not even close to equivalent, I think that approach needs to be rethought. +minimum block chance would be more on par with the benefit from mitigation increase. Or they could just go ahead and let us have the same stat on our gear.

Lethe5683

03-12-2010, 02:02 AM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm aware. But its very strange to have the stat basically available on one item and a buff and nothing else. I'd like more minimum block chance for my block chance to modify, thank you very much.From what I've seen of itemization so far, it looks like they are valuing +block chance as equal to +mitigation increase. If a brawler item has 6 block chance, the plate version has 6 mitigation increase, etc. Given that the two stats are not even close to equivalent, I think that approach needs to be rethought. +minimum block chance would be more on par with the benefit from mitigation increase. Or they could just go ahead and let us have the same stat on our gear.</blockquote>I'm not one to defend plate tanks but +6 mit increase as absolute garbage compared with +6 minimum block chance. One is 6% uncontested avoidance while the other is 6% increase to the mit rating of their armor which is maybe 1% mit at the very most.

BChizzle

03-12-2010, 02:07 AM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm aware. But its very strange to have the stat basically available on one item and a buff and nothing else. I'd like more minimum block chance for my block chance to modify, thank you very much.From what I've seen of itemization so far, it looks like they are valuing +block chance as equal to +mitigation increase. If a brawler item has 6 block chance, the plate version has 6 mitigation increase, etc. Given that the two stats are not even close to equivalent, I think that approach needs to be rethought. +minimum block chance would be more on par with the benefit from mitigation increase. Or they could just go ahead and let us have the same stat on our gear.</blockquote>Correct it is the continued perpetuation of the neglect of brawlers. Despite the gains we have seen nothing has really changed.

circusgirl

03-12-2010, 02:46 AM

<cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm aware. But its very strange to have the stat basically available on one item and a buff and nothing else. I'd like more minimum block chance for my block chance to modify, thank you very much.From what I've seen of itemization so far, it looks like they are valuing +block chance as equal to +mitigation increase. If a brawler item has 6 block chance, the plate version has 6 mitigation increase, etc. Given that the two stats are not even close to equivalent, I think that approach needs to be rethought. +minimum block chance would be more on par with the benefit from mitigation increase. Or they could just go ahead and let us have the same stat on our gear.</blockquote>I'm not one to defend plate tanks but +6 mit increase as absolute garbage compared with +6 minimum block chance. One is 6% uncontested avoidance while the other is 6% increase to the mit rating of their armor which is maybe 1% mit at the very most.</blockquote>I think the value of mitigation increase is somewhere in between block chance and minimum block chance. Block chance is comparatively underpowered, and minimum block chance is more powerful. They shouldn't put them on in equal quantities, but they should absolutely give us at least small bits of either minimum block chance or mitigation increase instead of just block chance.

Ambrin

03-12-2010, 07:43 AM

I believe mitigation is on a curve, isn't it? So the more you have the less an increase in mitigation is worth. That being said we very much could use more +mitigation on our armour. I know the Indomitable Cloak from the battleground vendor is currently giving 558 to physical mitigation making it a rather nice piece for a brawler tanking (havn't checked the rest of the gear yet).

BChizzle

03-12-2010, 11:42 AM

<cite>Ambrin@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I believe mitigation is on a curve, isn't it? So the more you have the less an increase in mitigation is worth. That being said we very much could use more +mitigation on our armour. I know the Indomitable Cloak from the battleground vendor is currently giving 558 to physical mitigation making it a rather nice piece for a brawler tanking (havn't checked the rest of the gear yet).</blockquote>Avoidance is also on a curve on top of that BLOCK is actually quite easy to get to the 70% cap. The point is I saw plate shoulders drop yesterday with 6 mit increase on them...the leather shoulders have 6 block chance which would you rather have? They get benefits from it no matter what, block chance just helps our block which is just about 30-45% of our total avoidance numbers and is easily capped. Fact is 6 block chance will raise your block less then 2% if you are uncapped that will actually be closer to 1% when mob level is thrown in there. Meanwhile 6 mit increase even on a plate tank is going to be a hell of alot more effective.

Morrolan V

03-12-2010, 02:32 PM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>From what I've seen of itemization so far, it looks like they are valuing +block chance as equal to +mitigation increase. If a brawler item has 6 block chance, the plate version has 6 mitigation increase, etc. Given that the two stats are not even close to equivalent, I think that approach needs to be rethought. +minimum block chance would be more on par with the benefit from mitigation increase. Or they could just go ahead and let us have the same stat on our gear.</blockquote>I agree. I made this point in beta when we first got a look at the raid drop tanking sets. As a set, the brawler tanking set has the same amount of +block chance as the plate set has +mitigation. It can't be said often enough -- a given amount of mitigation adds MUCH more survivability than an equivalent amount of avoidance. Plus, they operate from different base values and on different curves versus a mob's level. Simply adding the same amount of + block for brawlers and + mitigation for plate tanks and calling it "equal" is flat out wrong. They are not equal at all.Further, we need a UI display of our minimum block chance. Without it, there is no meaningful way for us to understand the true effect of gear and buffs on our avoidance, or to compare numbers with plate tanks. Please fix this.All that said, strikethrough immunity is a big deal. It has added very meaningfully to our survivability.

BChizzle

03-12-2010, 02:55 PM

<cite>Rythalian@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>From what I've seen of itemization so far, it looks like they are valuing +block chance as equal to +mitigation increase. If a brawler item has 6 block chance, the plate version has 6 mitigation increase, etc. Given that the two stats are not even close to equivalent, I think that approach needs to be rethought. +minimum block chance would be more on par with the benefit from mitigation increase. Or they could just go ahead and let us have the same stat on our gear.</blockquote>I agree. I made this point in beta when we first got a look at the raid drop tanking sets. As a set, the brawler tanking set has the same amount of +block chance as the plate set has +mitigation. It can't be said often enough -- a given amount of mitigation adds MUCH more survivability than an equivalent amount of avoidance. Plus, they operate from different base values and on different curves versus a mob's level. Simply adding the same amount of + block for brawlers and + mitigation for plate tanks and calling it "equal" is flat out wrong. They are not equal at all.Further, we need a UI display of our minimum block chance. Without it, there is no meaningful way for us to understand the true effect of gear and buffs on our avoidance, or to compare numbers with plate tanks. Please fix this.All that said, strikethrough immunity is a big deal. It has added very meaningfully to our survivability.</blockquote>Strikethrough immunity is ok but really mit tanks dont get hit through their mit it is just a balancer. + block chance would only come close to being equal if they stat added a certain % of avoid across all of our avoidance checks so block chance adding 1% to uncontested block is great but it would also need to add 1% to parry and defense to even coming remotely equal to mit increase.

circusgirl

03-12-2010, 03:18 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rythalian@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>From what I've seen of itemization so far, it looks like they are valuing +block chance as equal to +mitigation increase. If a brawler item has 6 block chance, the plate version has 6 mitigation increase, etc. Given that the two stats are not even close to equivalent, I think that approach needs to be rethought. +minimum block chance would be more on par with the benefit from mitigation increase. Or they could just go ahead and let us have the same stat on our gear.</blockquote>I agree. I made this point in beta when we first got a look at the raid drop tanking sets. As a set, the brawler tanking set has the same amount of +block chance as the plate set has +mitigation. It can't be said often enough -- a given amount of mitigation adds MUCH more survivability than an equivalent amount of avoidance. Plus, they operate from different base values and on different curves versus a mob's level. Simply adding the same amount of + block for brawlers and + mitigation for plate tanks and calling it "equal" is flat out wrong. They are not equal at all.Further, we need a UI display of our minimum block chance. Without it, there is no meaningful way for us to understand the true effect of gear and buffs on our avoidance, or to compare numbers with plate tanks. Please fix this.All that said, strikethrough immunity is a big deal. It has added very meaningfully to our survivability.</blockquote>Strikethrough immunity is ok but really mit tanks dont get hit through their mit it is just a balancer. + block chance would only come close to being equal if they stat added a certain % of avoid across all of our avoidance checks so block chance adding 1% to uncontested block is great but it would also need to add 1% to parry and defense to even coming remotely equal to mit increase.</blockquote>The issue is, +1 block chance does not add 1% uncontested block. It adds 27*0.01= .27% block. And thats only if you have mastered defensive stance, points in aversion, and haven't switched to 4.0 delay weapons.

Troy

03-12-2010, 04:18 PM

<cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Leere@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guys - Gals - don't flame me for this plz.I want to thank the dervs for actually improving our class finally.I'm your average t3-t4 fabled set jewled raid monk and since SF I see a great improvement in my ability to MT - never get one shotted now - my DPS is much higher and i can survive in a group while the others die and get rezed and die - I can keep the fight alive - and I can hold mulitiple mobs with ease. When I log on - I am actually getting asked to MT a group thru the Hole and some of the instances.I know there are still many issues - but I am having a much better time playing the monk than I have in the past year since TSO.Thank You SOE Dervs for finally listening and fixing a few things that mattered.</blockquote>I don't think improving brawlers a little bit while improving plate tanks TONS counts as improving our class, I would consider it more of a nerf really. Also, what are dervs?</blockquote>Oops - corrected it.

BChizzle

03-12-2010, 05:49 PM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>The issue is, +1 block chance does not add 1% uncontested block. It adds 27*0.01= .27% block. And thats only if you have mastered defensive stance, points in aversion, and haven't switched to 4.0 delay weapons. </blockquote>Nobody said 1% block chance = 1% block thanks for pointing out that it doesn't for no relevant reason to the argument. I was pretty clear that 6 block chance is close to 1% block if you actually read posts.

circusgirl

03-12-2010, 08:23 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>block chance adding 1% to uncontested block is great but it would also need to add 1% to parry and defense to even coming remotely equal to mit increase.</blockquote>I did read your post. Not my intention to pick a fight, Blanka, as I'm pretty sure we agree about most things.

Lethe5683

03-13-2010, 10:56 PM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm aware. But its very strange to have the stat basically available on one item and a buff and nothing else. I'd like more minimum block chance for my block chance to modify, thank you very much.From what I've seen of itemization so far, it looks like they are valuing +block chance as equal to +mitigation increase. If a brawler item has 6 block chance, the plate version has 6 mitigation increase, etc. Given that the two stats are not even close to equivalent, I think that approach needs to be rethought. +minimum block chance would be more on par with the benefit from mitigation increase. Or they could just go ahead and let us have the same stat on our gear.</blockquote>I'm not one to defend plate tanks but +6 mit increase as absolute garbage compared with +6 minimum block chance. One is 6% uncontested avoidance while the other is 6% increase to the mit rating of their armor which is maybe 1% mit at the very most.</blockquote>I think the value of mitigation increase is somewhere in between block chance and minimum block chance. Block chance is comparatively underpowered, and minimum block chance is more powerful. They shouldn't put them on in equal quantities, but they should absolutely give us at least small bits of either minimum block chance or mitigation increase instead of just block chance.</blockquote>I would say the values would be something like this:Block Chance (10%) > Mit Increase (20%) > Minimum Block (100%)So if an Item has 5 mit increase the more fair amount for brawlers would be either +1 minimum block or +10 block chance.

Ambrin

03-13-2010, 11:46 PM

<cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm aware. But its very strange to have the stat basically available on one item and a buff and nothing else. I'd like more minimum block chance for my block chance to modify, thank you very much.From what I've seen of itemization so far, it looks like they are valuing +block chance as equal to +mitigation increase. If a brawler item has 6 block chance, the plate version has 6 mitigation increase, etc. Given that the two stats are not even close to equivalent, I think that approach needs to be rethought. +minimum block chance would be more on par with the benefit from mitigation increase. Or they could just go ahead and let us have the same stat on our gear.</blockquote>I'm not one to defend plate tanks but +6 mit increase as absolute garbage compared with +6 minimum block chance. One is 6% uncontested avoidance while the other is 6% increase to the mit rating of their armor which is maybe 1% mit at the very most.</blockquote>I think the value of mitigation increase is somewhere in between block chance and minimum block chance. Block chance is comparatively underpowered, and minimum block chance is more powerful. They shouldn't put them on in equal quantities, but they should absolutely give us at least small bits of either minimum block chance or mitigation increase instead of just block chance.</blockquote>I would say the values would be something like this:Block Chance (10%) > Mit Increase (20%) > Minimum Block (100%)So if an Item has 5 mit increase the more fair amount for brawlers would be either +1 minimum block or +10 block chance.</blockquote>The value of block chance is tied directly to whatever your current minimum block is. With the myth, master defensive stance, and the Aversion AA 1 minimum block is equal to roughly 4% block chance.I would very much like to see brawler tanking gear have some base level of +mitigation increase, but that seems like wishful thinking at this point.

Lethe5683

03-14-2010, 09:12 AM

<cite>Ambrin@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm aware. But its very strange to have the stat basically available on one item and a buff and nothing else. I'd like more minimum block chance for my block chance to modify, thank you very much.From what I've seen of itemization so far, it looks like they are valuing +block chance as equal to +mitigation increase. If a brawler item has 6 block chance, the plate version has 6 mitigation increase, etc. Given that the two stats are not even close to equivalent, I think that approach needs to be rethought. +minimum block chance would be more on par with the benefit from mitigation increase. Or they could just go ahead and let us have the same stat on our gear.</blockquote>I'm not one to defend plate tanks but +6 mit increase as absolute garbage compared with +6 minimum block chance. One is 6% uncontested avoidance while the other is 6% increase to the mit rating of their armor which is maybe 1% mit at the very most.</blockquote>I think the value of mitigation increase is somewhere in between block chance and minimum block chance. Block chance is comparatively underpowered, and minimum block chance is more powerful. They shouldn't put them on in equal quantities, but they should absolutely give us at least small bits of either minimum block chance or mitigation increase instead of just block chance.</blockquote>I would say the values would be something like this:Block Chance (10%) > Mit Increase (20%) > Minimum Block (100%)So if an Item has 5 mit increase the more fair amount for brawlers would be either +1 minimum block or +10 block chance.</blockquote>The value of block chance is tied directly to whatever your current minimum block is. With the myth, master defensive stance, and the Aversion AA 1 minimum block is equal to roughly 4% block chance.I would very much like to see brawler tanking gear have some base level of +mitigation increase, but that seems like wishful thinking at this point.</blockquote>+mitigation increase for brawlers would be useless unless in huge quantities. It only increases the base mit of your armor by whatever # it says.

BChizzle

03-14-2010, 10:40 AM

<cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm aware. But its very strange to have the stat basically available on one item and a buff and nothing else. I'd like more minimum block chance for my block chance to modify, thank you very much.From what I've seen of itemization so far, it looks like they are valuing +block chance as equal to +mitigation increase. If a brawler item has 6 block chance, the plate version has 6 mitigation increase, etc. Given that the two stats are not even close to equivalent, I think that approach needs to be rethought. +minimum block chance would be more on par with the benefit from mitigation increase. Or they could just go ahead and let us have the same stat on our gear.</blockquote>I'm not one to defend plate tanks but +6 mit increase as absolute garbage compared with +6 minimum block chance. One is 6% uncontested avoidance while the other is 6% increase to the mit rating of their armor which is maybe 1% mit at the very most.</blockquote>I think the value of mitigation increase is somewhere in between block chance and minimum block chance. Block chance is comparatively underpowered, and minimum block chance is more powerful. They shouldn't put them on in equal quantities, but they should absolutely give us at least small bits of either minimum block chance or mitigation increase instead of just block chance.</blockquote>I would say the values would be something like this:Block Chance (10%) > Mit Increase (20%) > Minimum Block (100%)So if an Item has 5 mit increase the more fair amount for brawlers would be either +1 minimum block or +10 block chance.</blockquote>The problem with this is block is so easy to cap so all this extra block chance really isn't an improvement.

Lethe5683

03-15-2010, 05:59 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem with this is block is so easy to cap so all this extra block chance really isn't an improvement.</blockquote>I haven't played my bruiser very much yet this expansion, what is the cap on block?

circusgirl

03-15-2010, 07:30 PM

70% for contested block. Not sure what it is for minimum, but I assume 70% as well (not that it matters because you need something like +159 block chance to get your minimum to 70%, heh).

BChizzle

03-16-2010, 03:52 AM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>70% for contested block. Not sure what it is for minimum, but I assume 70% as well (not that it matters because you need something like +159 block chance to get your minimum to 70%, heh).</blockquote>I don't even collect block chance gear and I can get to around 145% I can't imagine 159% being very hard to attain, hell a proper proccing anashti ring and I could get to 160%.

circusgirl

03-16-2010, 10:33 AM

If I go crazy over block chance gear I can get to a little over 100% if I switch out mythical+munzok hammer for a pair of 4.0 delay weapons where one of them has +20 block chance. Of course, if you switch to 4.0 delays, then you're losing your +5 minimum deflection, which means that your actual gain in avoidance is negligible, and that your block chance cap is even higher to get your minimum deflection up to 70.It is definitely possible with Bob & Weave and the Anashti ring up, so I guess you're right that its not an entirely irrelevant discussion, but if you're pulling those numbers without Bob & Weave I'd love to know how.

Gungo

03-16-2010, 07:35 PM

Minimum Block (and any uncontested avoidance) is still contested slightly by NPC level.AndWhile it is probably easy to test and I havent had the time. I dont think anyone posting here has tested whether Minimum block is on a diminishing curve. Every single other avoidiance skill including contested block is on a diminishing curve. So it is possible that minimum block may require more then 159% block chance to cap out.Either way I agree with blanka % mit increasers are much more important to survivability then more block. At least until we get well into the diminishing return curve for mitigation which I dont see happening for some time.

circusgirl

03-16-2010, 07:53 PM

I don't think minimum block as it exists in the game currently is on any sort of curve. Prior to the expansion, when we could see our minimum block in the avoidance tooltip, no matter how high you pumped your block chance your minimum deflection was always calculated by the formula minimum deflection = uncontested deflection * (1+(block chance/100))You could calculate easily what it should be based on your block chance, and it always showed exactly that value in the tooltip, rounded to the appropriate decimal place. I think therefore that minimum deflection is not curved.

Couching

03-17-2010, 05:10 AM

There is no doubt that mitigation increase is better than block chance for survivability improvement.However, considering how much mitigation plate tanks could get in raid from gear and buff, the actual benefit from 6 mitigation increase on shoulder or +10 mitigation increase from adornment is limited. Those mitigation increase didn't improve their survivability much but give them the freedom to swap more dps jewelries for better dps/aggro.On the contrary, we can get mitigation increase on adornment and every jewelry slot from necklace to charm to improve our survivability. The drawback is we have to swap dps jewelries for jewelries with mitigation increase and lower our dps and aggro.Currently, there is almost no difference between leather armor and plate armor except mitigation.To be fair, brawler armor pieces or adornment should have more dps attributes than plate armor and adornment. Give us 8% crit bonus in offensive stance and 6% riposte chance in defensive stance back then I am fine with what plate tanks got, +10 mit adornment. Also, every leather armor should have more crit bonus/potency than plate armor.