Three questions [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Cusashorn

03-05-2010, 03:33 PM

<cite>ToxicLullaby wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm sort of hesitant to post here after being chewed out maliciously for asking in game, but hopefully that won't be a repeat occurence. . .1: Do dark elves in Everquest have similar or identical age progression to D&D's dark elves? I'm trying to discern what my character's age should be in RP.2: Are there any good sources of information on Anashti Sul other than the wiki and scattered tidbits of knowledge? I'd like to RP worshipping her out but don't know enough yet.3: I'd like some information about EQ2's dark elves in general. Their general history, why they appear the way they do (in D&D they are cursed with black skin. Is there a reason in EQ2, or is it just 'it is because it is' sort of thing?).Thanks in advance and hopefully I don't offend anyone by using the taboo 'D&D' term here. Shame on me. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>1. To be honest, there has never been a confirmed age progression for any of the races in the game itself. The Pen and Paper version gives age charts that say that Dark elves usually live to about 600 years at the most with the aid of magic to help extend it, but nothing in the computer game itself really says how long any race can live. There are some NPCs, elves in particular, who are still around after 500 years from EQlive, but all of the Elves except Half Elves can live past 500 years. Squire Fuzzmin from the Wurmslayer HQ is a halfling who should be dead according to the EQ2 Pen & Paper, D&D, and Tolkien lore, but he's still around for some unexplained reason. The infamous Erudite necromancer Miragul is reported as living for 3000 years BEFORE he started using Necromancy to extend his life further, but there have been many retellings of his story that all claim different numbers.<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=186940" target="_blank">This thread here lists the age ratings for the races from the Pen and Paper version.</a>2. Anashti Sul was first introduced to us during the Desert of Flames expansion here in EQ2. There are some questlines that go into detail about her, but you would require a raid sooner or later to finish them all up. The best I can tell you is that Anashti Sul used to be the original God of Health before Rodcet Nife took over. She wanted to "cure" death with the concept of Undeath. An ancient civilization of elves who lived in the desert long ago worshipped her and treated eternal life through undeath as a blessing. The other gods in the pantheon weren't amused at all that she unleashed the undead on Norrath in whole, so they banished her to the Void.She didn't like that, so for centuries she plotted how to escape from the Void and get her revenge. She recruited denizens from the Void itself to invade Norrath. Eventually, us adventurers fought her in the Void itself and killed her. Not even Anashti herself had predicted that her death there severed the bond that kept her there. She was freed and reformed herself on Norrath as the God of Eternal Life. A live event from last summer revealed that Anashti had taken an interest in both Rodcet Nife and Bertoxxulous both. Rodcet because he took over her formal position, and Bertoxxulous because he's the God of Disease, and Anashti still wants to find a way to "Cure" him (as in kill him too.)3. The Dark Elves are Innoruuk's creations. Back when Tunare first created the Elves, they thrived for a long time in the middle of what has since become the Desert of Ro, before moving to Faydwer. Innoruuk was jealous of the Elves' prosperity, so he stole away the first King and Queen back to his Plane. The king's brother would take over and continue leading the Elves. Innoruuk warped, twisted, tortured, and corrupted them for hundreds of years before they finally no longer looked like the Elves they used to be. They no longer accepted who they used to be. Tunare was now their enemy and Innoruuk their creator. I don't think the Blue Skin has been explained exactly, but living underground and to just distinguish themselves from other races are factors.Now, most Dark Elves make a living off of worshipping Innoruuk, being malevolent to most things in general, and not passing up the opportunity to backstab each other (literally if need be) to obtain the power they want. Not every Dark Elf is this way though. It's not unheard of for a Dark Elf to forsake his own racial culture and society and turn to Good.

Nightshade

03-05-2010, 04:23 PM

Thank you for the quick and detailed reply!

Jaranna

03-05-2010, 05:35 PM

Innoruuk disguised himself as an elf and got himself into a position of trust in the Thex family. His plan was to steal the king and queen's son and make him the first of a race devoted to him. When he opened the portal back to the Plane of Hate, however, the magic was detected, and he was confronted by the king and queen as well as a number of guards and mages. Innoruuk threatened to kill the boy if he was not allowed to leave, but the elves would not relent. When he saw that they would not give up the boy even if it were to kill him, Innoruuk proposed a deal: the boy would live, and the king and queen would give their lives for their son's. They agreed. The boy was released, and Innoruuk revealed himself, walking into his portal.The king, Naythox, and the queen, Cristanos, said their goodbyes and followed the god willingly, as their honor demanded. When they arrived, Cristanos was cursed by Innoruuk with a disease that would kill her within a day. To survive, she would need to steal life essence from Naythox. They were kept separated, except for once a day, when Naythox would be brought to his wife, and she would perform the act necessary to prolong her life. The queen's skin over time took on a blue color, and she hated the fact that she was growing addicted to taking her husband's life from him. One day, after about a century, Naythox noticed that his wife was perhaps a little too eager to take his life essence. Innoruuk had his minions hint that Naythox was to be killed soon, and that Cristanos would sire a new race with the god himself. Naythox slew his guards and escaped.When it came time for Cristanos' "meal," she was furious when Naythox didn't show. She stole the life essence from her guards and infected them all with the disease, becoming a necromancer. She went out into the plane to find her husband to kill him. Innoruuk delighted in this development, and he had some of his minions go to Naythox's aid. The two elves led a long campaign against each other across the Plane of Hate for more than 40 years. It was love turned to hatred that caused them to fight so bitterly, and so Innoruuk decreed that they both would be the progenitors of his race. They both finished their transformation into the first Teir'Dal.For his part, Naythox's and Cristanos' son, Tearis, was not lazy. As he grew into the leader he had to become, his people worked feverishly on a way to get to the Plane of Hate so as to rescue their beloved king and queen. After centuries, they succeeded. Tearis ordered a large rescue force to go to the Plane and rescue their royal couple. As the elves appeared in the plane, they were surrounded by Innoruuk's minions, and they fought. Eventually, they were told to stop fighting, and the king and queen appeared before them. They announced that they were happy to see their old friends, as they would become what they now were. Some of the elves pledged themselves to the Thex couple immediately. Some refused. Unto those, Naythox unleashed the minions of Hate. Seeing that their king and queen were lost, the elves tried to escape. Some did, but most were lost in the battle, only to become lost to the power of the Plane itself.Opal Dark Briar and Aataltaal were among those who became the Firstborn Teir'Dal. Aataltaal would later escape (whether from the plane or from Neriak when Innoruuk placed his creations on Norrath is uncertain), and he would become an important figure throughout history. Opal Dark Briar's history is more well known.So, to sum up, we have an interesting family squabble amongst the elves. The current NPC known as Cristanos Thex is indeed the original Cristanos Thex. She eventually succeeded in killing Naythox, though it has been hinted that she has taken other husbands, and the line of kings have all been called "Naythox." The son, Tearis Thex, was the king of the high elves in EQ Live. His daughter, Lenya, became queen after his death when the dark elves took Felwithe. It's quite possible that the oldest dark elves and high elves might even still be family.It also should be noted that Teir'Dal are not drow. Their society is not matriarchal, they do not worship spiders (drachnids were created by Mayong Mistmoore) and they do not follow traditional gender divisions of adventuring classes. They do not speak drow.

Pahya

03-05-2010, 06:29 PM

The current Cristanos Thex is not the original Cristanos, nor was the Naythox killed in the War of the Fae the original King Naythox. There's evidence in Fallen Gate that the Teir'dal side of the Thex bloodline has changed actual dynasty many times. It's also worth stressing again even though it's been said, please, just toss any pre concived notions of what a Dark Elf is, namely anything from Forgotten Realms, out the window when considering the Teir'dal. Aside from having dark skin and living underground the Teir'dal and Drow have little if nothing in common. Their society is totally different as is their character and their God. Roleplayers with an interest in Teir'dal have had to /facepalm through so many wantonly thrown "Vendui"'s and all powerful Matron run houses with weird spider obsessions that if a Teir/Drow question is posed we tend to immediately bristle. I apologize for anyone who snapped at you ^^Anashti Sul is a REALLY interesting goddess, and you picked one with probably the most in game quests/storyline centered our her. The best way to learn of her is really to do her diety quests, starting at level 20 on the docks in the Sinking Sands. I just recently gave up worshiping Karana for game mechanic reasons and have been having a blast doing the Anashi quests because they're so much more interesting. I'm not sure what server you're on but if you have any random questions while you're playing feel free to drop me a tell, you've picked two of my favorite lore points to take an interest in. If I don't know the answer I love the chance to dig through resources to find one <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Cusashorn

03-05-2010, 08:17 PM

Jaranna, your entire post is something I've never heard before. I've never heard any mention of the King and Queen willingly going just to preserve thier honor. I've never heard of other guards and mages going with them, or that Christanos was cursed with a disease that would kill her in a day if she didn't steal Naythox's life essence. I've never heard of Opal Darkbriar being among the original Dark Elves (which would place her over 4000 years old if it were true), or Aataaltal ever being a Dark Elf at all.Those "Every king taking the name of Naythox" and "Christanos is the original" parts are both effectively dashed on the rocks by the monuments found right inside the Fallen Gate's entrence by listing off the names of both former kings AND queens of Neriak before Christanos came into power.I must ask: where did you hear this?

Lodrelhai

03-05-2010, 08:22 PM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>2. Anashti Sul was first introduced to us during the Desert of Flames expansion here in EQ2. There are some questlines that go into detail about her, but you would require a raid sooner or later to finish them all up. The best I can tell you is that Anashti Sul used to be the original God of Health before Rodcet Nife took over. She wanted to "cure" death with the concept of Undeath. An ancient civilization of elves who lived in the desert long ago worshipped her and treated eternal life through undeath as a blessing. The other gods in the pantheon weren't amused at all that she unleashed the undead on Norrath in whole, so they banished her to the Void.She didn't like that, so for centuries she plotted how to escape from the Void and get her revenge. She recruited denizens from the Void itself to invade Norrath. Eventually, us adventurers fought her in the Void itself and killed her. Not even Anashti herself had predicted that her death there severed the bond that kept her there. She was freed and reformed herself on Norrath as the God of Eternal Life. A live event from last summer revealed that Anashti had taken an interest in both Rodcet Nife and Bertoxxulous both. Rodcet because he took over her formal position, and Bertoxxulous because he's the God of Disease, and Anashti still wants to find a way to "Cure" him (as in kill him too.)</blockquote>Minor clarification - by all accounts Anashti Sul was banished to the Void before those ancient elves started worshipping her. When you do the Peacock Club questline, you learn about a prophet of oblivion teaching the ways of the forgotten one.

Nightshade

03-05-2010, 09:49 PM

First off, thanks for all the replies! When I find time I'll have plenty to review here. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><cite>Pahya wrote:</cite><blockquote>...It's also worth stressing again even though it's been said, please, just toss any pre concived notions of what a Dark Elf is, namely anything from Forgotten Realms, out the window when considering the Teir'dal. Aside from having dark skin and living underground the Teir'dal and Drow have little if nothing in common. Their society is totally different as is their character and their God. Roleplayers with an interest in Teir'dal have had to /facepalm through so many wantonly thrown "Vendui"'s and all powerful Matron run houses with weird spider obsessions that if a Teir/Drow question is posed we tend to immediately bristle. I apologize for anyone who snapped at you ^^...</blockquote>Well, I'll say two things on this. The first is mostly a disclaimer, since indeed I was snapped at for asking a rather simple question, by several people at once. That is the sort of thing that loses customers, but luckily I'm thicker skinned than that.- I treat every game as it's own unique, flavor-filled campaign. EQ2 is ** not ** D&D, and I don't want it to be, or try to make it out to be, BUT there are actually more similarities than either hardcore D&D fans or EQ2 lore fans want to admit, and even some misleading EQ2 situations that would lead a new player into thinking it's heavily D&D based.Which brings me to point two.- Hover/levitate, infravision, dark skin (usually ebony shades), purple eyes (common in D&D now since the Drizzt epidemic), chaotic evil matriarchal society with underlying discipline, underground residence, and tbh the list goes on. ** Now if you're getting angry at reading that please re-read point one where I clearly state I do not inject D&D into EQ2 ** I merely want to illustrate the fact that all campaigns (or games if you prefer) draw from the same folklore, and in the end the only thing that really seperates them is the names, locations, etc used.I mentioned misleading in-game lore. One example is the spider-obsessed NPC in Darklight Palace. She is so obsessed with spiders that she tasks the player with helping her become a 'Dricher,' I believe was the name (half spider half dark elf, likely taken from D&D's drider, which is identical).In summary, I again state to please not take this post as me promoting people dragging their D&D lore wrongfully into EQ2. I merely want to illustrate the fact that a huge part of EQ2's customer base (at least as far as roleplayers go) grew up on D&D, so you should definately expect some awkwardness from them when they come into what is ** at first glance ** a very similar setting, at least until they come forward like myself and try to understand the campaign's unique lore. I suppose this last paragraph mostly addresses those who would blow up on new players for mixing lore.

Nightshade

03-05-2010, 10:10 PM

<cite>Pahya wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not sure what server you're on but if you have any random questions while you're playing feel free to drop me a tell, you've picked two of my favorite lore points to take an interest in. If I don't know the answer I love the chance to dig through resources to find one <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Lucan D'Lere. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I play a dark elf coercer of Anashti Sul. I didn't know much about her when I picked, but she seemed like the enigmatic sort (and peacock feathers make me think of coercers, since they are flashy and beautiful).

Mirander_1

03-05-2010, 10:12 PM

Pahya

03-05-2010, 10:30 PM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Jaranna, your entire post is something I've never heard before. I've never heard any mention of the King and Queen willingly going just to preserve thier honor. I've never heard of other guards and mages going with them, or that Christanos was cursed with a disease that would kill her in a day if she didn't steal Naythox's life essence. I've never heard of Opal Darkbriar being among the original Dark Elves (which would place her over 4000 years old if it were true), or Aataaltal ever being a Dark Elf at all.Those "Every king taking the name of Naythox" and "Christanos is the original" parts are both effectively dashed on the rocks by the monuments found right inside the Fallen Gate's entrence by listing off the names of both former kings AND queens of Neriak before Christanos came into power.I must ask: where did you hear this?</blockquote>I've heard a version of the Teir'dal creation story very, very close to that back in 2006 but I can't for the life of me remember where. I believe it was somewhere on an EQ1 lore site. It was actually the first I'd ever heard of the Teir'dal creation story and made me immediately roll an alt and I've loved them since. I believe it was about the origin of Shadowknights, how Lifetap was a gift given to Christanos by Innoruuk how once Neriak was founded she tought the ability to her closest guards, giving birth to Shadowknight as a class. I wish I could find the source, but I'm nearly positive it wasn't fanfiction, as I would have disregarded it. I may be absolutely out of my mind but the way I recall it was as a very long post from Vhalen as I remember his big book of lore being referenced in the same article. As for Aataaltal being a dark elf, he is indeed. He's the main character in Ocean of Tears (<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Everquest-Ocean-Tears-Stewart-Wieck/dp/1593150296/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267838483&sr=8-1">http://www.amazon.com/Everquest-Oce...67838483&sr=8-1</a>). He's a very good illusionist and poses as several other races, but he mentions several times in the book how he "use to be a Koada'dal", his hatred for what Innoruuk did to he and his people. And if I remember right talks at one point about how unusual it is that his "heart doesn't match his skin". I need to reread that book, because I also seem to remember him telling of going to save the king and queen ... but it's been a few years.

Nightshade

03-05-2010, 10:33 PM

Hmm, speaking of books.Are there any EQ2 novels relevant to my aforementioned interests that any of you would recommend?

Rezikai

03-05-2010, 10:41 PM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Jaranna, your entire post is something I've never heard before. I've never heard any mention of the King and Queen willingly going just to preserve thier honor. I've never heard of other guards and mages going with them, or that Christanos was cursed with a disease that would kill her in a day if she didn't steal Naythox's life essence. I've never heard of Opal Darkbriar being among the original Dark Elves (which would place her over 4000 years old if it were true), or Aataaltal ever being a Dark Elf at all.Those "Every king taking the name of Naythox" and "Christanos is the original" parts are both effectively dashed on the rocks by the monuments found right inside the Fallen Gate's entrence by listing off the names of both former kings AND queens of Neriak before Christanos came into power.I must ask: where did you hear this?</blockquote>She must be using the original EQ1 PnP lore, that told the story of Cristanos being infected and such. Which to be honest alot of the PnP lore used the same refrence material for their tales to. However they did make certain "liberties" when making their tale, like the origin of the Teir`Dal with Xanit K`Ven when K'ven slays Naythox at the end. But for the most part I take that as the most "clear" version of the Teir`Dal creation stories, as for the naming convenstions Vhalen said each Teri`Dal carries he letter that starts their last name with the first letter of their home province in the Underfoot, so someone named D'Morte and D'Malyn,.. would share a common home province in their ancestory.And the Anashti Sul deity quests are my personal fave's to be honest steeped in lore, rituals and lust for power. Theres even an event any player can witness when completing one of the deity quests at the Temple of Life in North Qeynos when Anashti's prophet arrives to spread her word.footnote: The PnP lore is the only place I've ever read about Gynok having the black books of Necromancy with him when he fled Qeynos, which apparently were the originaly owned by the Burning Dead.. so it seems the PnP lore has some validity.

Lodrelhai

03-06-2010, 12:12 AM

<cite>ToxicLullaby wrote:</cite><blockquote>First off, thanks for all the replies! When I find time I'll have plenty to review here. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /><cite>Pahya wrote:</cite><blockquote>...It's also worth stressing again even though it's been said, please, just toss any pre concived notions of what a Dark Elf is, namely anything from Forgotten Realms, out the window when considering the Teir'dal. Aside from having dark skin and living underground the Teir'dal and Drow have little if nothing in common. Their society is totally different as is their character and their God. Roleplayers with an interest in Teir'dal have had to /facepalm through so many wantonly thrown "Vendui"'s and all powerful Matron run houses with weird spider obsessions that if a Teir/Drow question is posed we tend to immediately bristle. I apologize for anyone who snapped at you ^^...</blockquote>Well, I'll say two things on this. The first is mostly a disclaimer, since indeed I was snapped at for asking a rather simple question, by several people at once. That is the sort of thing that loses customers, but luckily I'm thicker skinned than that.- I treat every game as it's own unique, flavor-filled campaign. EQ2 is ** not ** D&D, and I don't want it to be, or try to make it out to be, BUT there are actually more similarities than either hardcore D&D fans or EQ2 lore fans want to admit, and even some misleading EQ2 situations that would lead a new player into thinking it's heavily D&D based.Which brings me to point two.- Hover/levitate, infravision, dark skin (usually ebony shades), purple eyes (common in D&D now since the Drizzt epidemic), chaotic evil matriarchal society with underlying discipline, underground residence, and tbh the list goes on. ** Now if you're getting angry at reading that please re-read point one where I clearly state I do not inject D&D into EQ2 ** I merely want to illustrate the fact that all campaigns (or games if you prefer) draw from the same folklore, and in the end the only thing that really seperates them is the names, locations, etc used.I mentioned misleading in-game lore. One example is the spider-obsessed NPC in Darklight Palace. She is so obsessed with spiders that she tasks the player with helping her become a 'Dricher,' I believe was the name (half spider half dark elf, likely taken from D&D's drider, which is identical).In summary, I again state to please not take this post as me promoting people dragging their D&D lore wrongfully into EQ2. I merely want to illustrate the fact that a huge part of EQ2's customer base (at least as far as roleplayers go) grew up on D&D, so you should definately expect some awkwardness from them when they come into what is ** at first glance ** a very similar setting, at least until they come forward like myself and try to understand the campaign's unique lore. I suppose this last paragraph mostly addresses those who would blow up on new players for mixing lore.</blockquote>Being one of those who grew into RP through AD&D campaigns, I'm not about to deny that there are things of our dark elves that are very reflective of that history. But then, those dark elves weren't an original creation of AD&D either - some of the particulars are unique, but it has its roots in fantasy novelists like Tolkien, and even before that in the various myths and legends about supernaturally beautiful but deceitful fae folk who avoided sunlight or even found it painful/fatal.That said, the Teir'dal are not chaotic evil. I would classify them more as lawful evil as a race. They are not overly given to slaughter for slaughter's sake, or destroying the status quo in order to create chaos. They actually seem very open to negotiation and legal strategies - do the quest to use the teleport pads in Neriak, or go to the Library of K'Lorn and listen to the mage, priest, and Cristanos factions argue over who should rightfully possess the scroll from the Plane of Hate. The former is all about how the Dark Bargainers use paperwork, court appeal, and other legal manipulations to take over the competitions. For the latter, were they chaotic evil as a race, that argument would involve weapons rather than words.They are not traditionally ruled by a queen either, nor do women automatically rank higher than the men. Cristanos had a history of being at odds with her king while he was alive, and there's currently a fair percentage of the dark elven race who think leadership should have passed to the crown prince (currently hidden in Faydwer if rumors are correct), rather than Cristanos taking over.Teir'dal also suffer no ill effects from sunlight, unlike AD&D dark elves. The drachnids (EQ2 version of driders) were created by Mayong Mistmoore - the drachnid L&L book, <a href="http://www.lorelibrary.com/?page=book&bid=362" target="_blank">Mayong's Cruelty</a>, tells that story. Even that spider-obsessed NPC who wants to become one is a break from AD&D lore about driders who, if memory serves, were cursed with that form by Lloth for being unworthy and therefore NOT something one would strive to emulate.So yes, the dark elves bear some similarities to the AD&D dark elves, just as do the dwarves, and high elves, and gnomes. We have brownies too, and gelatinous cubes, and various other creatures from those old tabletop campaigns. The similarities give players a basis for identifying and interacting with these creatures - if they're not interested in the lore, they don't have to spend weeks digging up racial histories and lifestyles in order to have the basic understanding of dark elf=evil. But if a player IS interested in the lore, they need to be willing to dump all those preconceived notions, because when it comes down to the nuts and bolts, they aren't the same race. No damage from sunlight, no clan houses run by Matrons who are constantly fighting for control, no spider goddess cursing those who fail her to a twisted, half-spider form. The developers give nods to the roots of the game in the appearance and other superficials, but they have developed their own backstory and behaviors.I am sorry that players apparently attacked you for pointing out those similarities. But they were not wrong to say the dark elves here are not like the dark elves in AD&D. And as for the disclaimer about behavior losing customers, that is less likely to be a concern when addressing other players, many of whom tend to carry the opinion of "If you don't like our world, leave." It's not a NICE attitude, but then, the customers don't have to be nice. Anyone who's spent a holiday season working retail can tell you that.

Meirril

03-06-2010, 12:15 AM

Pahya

03-06-2010, 12:31 AM

<cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite><blockquote>Being one of those who grew into RP through AD&D campaigns, I'm not about to deny that there are things of our dark elves that are very reflective of that history. But then, those dark elves weren't an original creation of AD&D either - some of the particulars are unique, but it has its roots in fantasy novelists like Tolkien, and even before that in the various myths and legends about supernaturally beautiful but deceitful fae folk who avoided sunlight or even found it painful/fatal.That said, the Teir'dal are not chaotic evil. I would classify them more as lawful evil as a race. They are not overly given to slaughter for slaughter's sake, or destroying the status quo in order to create chaos. They actually seem very open to negotiation and legal strategies - do the quest to use the teleport pads in Neriak, or go to the Library of K'Lorn and listen to the mage, priest, and Cristanos factions argue over who should rightfully possess the scroll from the Plane of Hate. The former is all about how the Dark Bargainers use paperwork, court appeal, and other legal manipulations to take over the competitions. For the latter, were they chaotic evil as a race, that argument would involve weapons rather than words.They are not traditionally ruled by a queen either, nor do women automatically rank higher than the men. Cristanos had a history of being at odds with her king while he was alive, and there's currently a fair percentage of the dark elven race who think leadership should have passed to the crown prince (currently hidden in Faydwer if rumors are correct), rather than Cristanos taking over.Teir'dal also suffer no ill effects from sunlight, unlike AD&D dark elves. The drachnids (EQ2 version of driders) were created by Mayong Mistmoore - the drachnid L&L book, <a href="http://www.lorelibrary.com/?page=book&bid=362" target="_blank">Mayong's Cruelty</a>, tells that story. Even that spider-obsessed NPC who wants to become one is a break from AD&D lore about driders who, if memory serves, were cursed with that form by Lloth for being unworthy and therefore NOT something one would strive to emulate.So yes, the dark elves bear some similarities to the AD&D dark elves, just as do the dwarves, and high elves, and gnomes. We have brownies too, and gelatinous cubes, and various other creatures from those old tabletop campaigns. The similarities give players a basis for identifying and interacting with these creatures - if they're not interested in the lore, they don't have to spend weeks digging up racial histories and lifestyles in order to have the basic understanding of dark elf=evil. But if a player IS interested in the lore, they need to be willing to dump all those preconceived notions, because when it comes down to the nuts and bolts, they aren't the same race. No damage from sunlight, no clan houses run by Matrons who are constantly fighting for control, no spider goddess cursing those who fail her to a twisted, half-spider form. The developers give nods to the roots of the game in the appearance and other superficials, but they have developed their own backstory and behaviors.I am sorry that players apparently attacked you for pointing out those similarities. But they were not wrong to say the dark elves here are not like the dark elves in AD&D. And as for the disclaimer about behavior losing customers, that is less likely to be a concern when addressing other players, many of whom tend to carry the opinion of "If you don't like our world, leave." It's not a NICE attitude, but then, the customers don't have to be nice. Anyone who's spent a holiday season working retail can tell you that.</blockquote>Sir or ma'am, where would you like your cookies of adoration sent? Teir'dal have about as much in common with Forgotten Realms drow as Koada'dal have with Tolkien's elves, purely superficial and a shared background of base fantasy races. That was a good solid rundown of the differences.

Nightshade

03-06-2010, 12:52 AM

I keep seeing it insinuated that I am either claiming D&D is the sole source of inspiration for EQ2 and/or I'm claiming there is very little difference. That's not the case. I was merely speaking from the perspective of a new person on the scene.You're correct that D&D is not original either. I think I even stated (not scouring posts right now, don't have time) that it's drawn from pre-existing folklore.So, for probably the 8th or 9th time now--I'm not implying that EQ2 dark elf == D&D drow.*Edit* Though I will say some of those points were fairly informative, Lodrelhai. I just think it is written with a misconstrued perception of my intent, is all.

ke'la

03-06-2010, 01:01 AM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ToxicLullaby wrote:</cite><blockquote>First off, thanks for all the replies! When I find time I'll have plenty to review here. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /><cite>Pahya wrote:</cite><blockquote>...It's also worth stressing again even though it's been said, please, just toss any pre concived notions of what a Dark Elf is, namely anything from Forgotten Realms, out the window when considering the Teir'dal. Aside from having dark skin and living underground the Teir'dal and Drow have little if nothing in common. Their society is totally different as is their character and their God. Roleplayers with an interest in Teir'dal have had to /facepalm through so many wantonly thrown "Vendui"'s and all powerful Matron run houses with weird spider obsessions that if a Teir/Drow question is posed we tend to immediately bristle. I apologize for anyone who snapped at you ^^...</blockquote>Well, I'll say two things on this. The first is mostly a disclaimer, since indeed I was snapped at for asking a rather simple question, by several people at once. That is the sort of thing that loses customers, but luckily I'm thicker skinned than that.- I treat every game as it's own unique, flavor-filled campaign. EQ2 is ** not ** D&D, and I don't want it to be, or try to make it out to be, BUT there are actually more similarities than either hardcore D&D fans or EQ2 lore fans want to admit, and even some misleading EQ2 situations that would lead a new player into thinking it's heavily D&D based.Which brings me to point two.- Hover/levitate, infravision, dark skin (usually ebony shades), purple eyes (common in D&D now since the Drizzt epidemic), chaotic evil matriarchal society with underlying discipline, underground residence, and tbh the list goes on. ** Now if you're getting angry at reading that please re-read point one where I clearly state I do not inject D&D into EQ2 ** I merely want to illustrate the fact that all campaigns (or games if you prefer) draw from the same folklore, and in the end the only thing that really seperates them is the names, locations, etc used.I mentioned misleading in-game lore. One example is the spider-obsessed NPC in Darklight Palace. She is so obsessed with spiders that she tasks the player with helping her become a 'Dricher,' I believe was the name (half spider half dark elf, likely taken from D&D's drider, which is identical).In summary, I again state to please not take this post as me promoting people dragging their D&D lore wrongfully into EQ2. I merely want to illustrate the fact that a huge part of EQ2's customer base (at least as far as roleplayers go) grew up on D&D, so you should definately expect some awkwardness from them when they come into what is ** at first glance ** a very similar setting, at least until they come forward like myself and try to understand the campaign's unique lore. I suppose this last paragraph mostly addresses those who would blow up on new players for mixing lore.</blockquote>Well, EQ in general shares a lot of similarities with D&D because D&D has been a source of inspiration for the developers of the game since its inception. EQ Lore is reported to be based off of a D&D campaign in which many of the origional developers of the game participated in. Like a lot of D&D back in those days, the world and lore was made by the DM. A lot of the creatures were the same, but what brought them together and made them tick was unique to this campaign.While the developers in the years since then have distanced themselves from D&D, they also bring more things that are unique to D&D with them each year. Right now, Beholders and Ropers have been brought into EQ2. These are creatures that were origionally developed by D&D and did not appear in any kind of story before being introduced in D&D. I'm sure if you looked at each new expansion you'd find a few other uniquely D&D creations scattered here and there. Fortunately Hasbro isn't quite as lawsuit happy as TSR was way back when.Before anyone corrects me, Wizards of the Coast is a wholly owned subsiderary of Hasbro.Anyways, just because things look like D&D and you can draw lines to it doesn't mean this is D&D. EQ has its own unique world and the Lore can be rich. Enjoy.</blockquote>Correct me if I am wrong but isn't Lucan De'Lure basically V'halin's D&D Charactor?

Pahya

03-06-2010, 01:34 AM

<cite>ToxicLullaby wrote:</cite><blockquote>I keep seeing it insinuated that I am either claiming D&D is the sole source of inspiration for EQ2 and/or I'm claiming there is very little difference. That's not the case. I was merely speaking from the perspective of a new person on the scene.You're correct that D&D is not original either. I think I even stated (not scouring posts right now, don't have time) that it's drawn from pre-existing folklore.So, for probably the 8th or 9th time now--I'm not implying that EQ2 dark elf == D&D drow.*Edit* Though I will say some of those points were fairly informative, Lodrelhai. I just think it is written with a misconstrued perception of my intent, is all.</blockquote>You started a discussion about Teir'dal, and the subject of their comparison to Drow has been brought up. We're just having a discussion, which naturally moves away from the original post of the thread. I don't think anyone is making insinuations, let's just continue chatting and sharing information without taking things personally, please <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> The nature of the lore forums is different than the rest of the boards. Posts here never really go away, searching the archives for information is common and I'm pretty sure we (or at least myself) are just sharing information with the knowledge that we may amass a good thread to point people to later when the question of Teir history and character again comes up. When I stressed my original Drow point back on page one, I wasn't really speaking to the OP. I was stressing a point that I know needed to be state for posterity. It is so not uncommon to see something you said three years ago quoted and brought up again on the lore boards. <div><cite>kela wrote:</cite><blockquote>Correct me if I am wrong but isn't Lucan De'Lure basically V'halin's D&D Charactor?</blockquote>I'm not sure if Lucan was Vhalen's character, but I know that his signature on the forums has always listed "Sir Lucan" as his nickname and that the character was very personally important to him. </div>

Cusashorn

03-06-2010, 02:02 AM

<cite>Pahya wrote:</cite><blockquote><div>I'm not sure if Lucan was Vhalen's character, but I know that his signature on the forums has always listed "Sir Lucan" as his nickname and that the character was very personally important to him.</div></blockquote>Lucan and Mayong were the two D&D character that Tony (Vhalen) and Brad McQuad (original creator of Everquest) created that eventually gave birth to all of Norrath and Everquest as a franchise.<cite>ToxicLullaby wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmm, speaking of books.Are there any EQ2 novels relevant to my aforementioned interests that any of you would recommend?</blockquote>There are four novels that were written a few years back. "Rogues Hour", "Ocean of Tears" (which deals with Aataaltal), "The Steel Warriors", and "The Blood Red Harp".They're not canon to the game, but do reference many locations and lore. Ocean of Tears in particular references the more lore from the game, but even it has some inconsistencies.. For example, right off the bat at the start of the book, it references "Bristlebane's realm of the Underfoot".Avoid the "Rogue's Hour". it's just dull and doesn't feel much like Norrath at all.

Nightshade

03-06-2010, 02:30 AM

Thanks Cusashorn.I'm somewhat surprised there isn't an entire library worth of EQ2 books given it's popularity, age, and the fact that one of it's major target markets is fantasy geeks like myself.

Jaranna

03-06-2010, 04:07 AM

I use the story given in the EQRPG Plane of Hate book. Given its third-person omniscient point of view (i.e. not tainted by an indivdual's recollection or biases) and the fact that the people who did the RPG worked very closely with the developers at SOE, I take it as canon until such time as the information has been deemed irrelevant.

Cusashorn

03-06-2010, 04:56 AM

<cite>Jaranna wrote:</cite><blockquote>I use the story given in the EQRPG Plane of Hate book. Given its third-person omniscient point of view (i.e. not tainted by an indivdual's recollection or biases) and the fact that the people who did the RPG worked very closely with the developers at SOE, I take it as canon until such time as the information has been deemed irrelevant.</blockquote>well, thats fine and all, but since this is the core game from which the P&P game spawned from, only anything mentioned in this game is canon until stated otherwise.

teddyboy4

03-06-2010, 01:39 PM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jaranna wrote:</cite><blockquote>I use the story given in the EQRPG Plane of Hate book. Given its third-person omniscient point of view (i.e. not tainted by an indivdual's recollection or biases) and the fact that the people who did the RPG worked very closely with the developers at SOE, I take it as canon until such time as the information has been deemed irrelevant.</blockquote>well, thats fine and all, but since this is the core game from which the P&P game spawned from, only anything mentioned in this game is canon until stated otherwise.</blockquote>Actually, I do believe the story that Jaranna conveyed above IS mentioned, at least in part, in EQ2...somewhere. I'll see if I can't find it.I know that I have heard that story as well, with Inny "infecting" Cristanos w/ something that caused her to need Naythox's life essence to live, and Naythox willingly giving it to her at first but eventually, as Inny had intended, it caused resentment between the two that over time grew into a seething, festering hate. I seem to also remember other parts of the same story about a rescue attempt, and other details but since I don't even recall everything I won't convey it b/c I don't want to get it wrong.I believe that this story is canon, as it seems to simply be an expanded and more detailed version of the Dark Elf creation story then what existed before. It isn't really a ret-con, more like a ret-expansion....

Rainmare

03-06-2010, 03:26 PM

Personally I do think Christanos is the original, and those people represented in Fallen Gate are not so much lineage, as either a) masters/rulers of the verying proviences that did somethign worth noting, or b) people that usurped power for sometime while/during Neriak being sealed off.it's made plainly obvious with the War of the Fay that Cristanos and her husband were very much the same from Eqlive. it was during that war she finally took down her husband, and failed in an attempt on her son who would have been next in line.now unless in the time between the war of the fay, and present eq2 live someone did a LOT of killing/usurping/chaos, I don't see how those leaders could be the ones in true charge over the Tier'dal. christanos had the Arm, she had the loyalty of the lodge of the dead, and the church. with her husband gone, I don't see how anyone could have made and succeeded in a bid for power against her. as a necromancer she has more then enough power nd means to extend her life if need be, and has children of her own being 'groomed' for power.even the thexians claim that the same christanos that is ruling now is the one that attempted to kill the crown prince, and we know that was the same christanos from eqlive.

Cusashorn

03-06-2010, 03:35 PM

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Personally I do think Christanos is the original, and those people represented in Fallen Gate are not so much lineage, as either a) masters/rulers of the verying proviences that did somethign worth noting, or b) people that usurped power for sometime while/during Neriak being sealed off.it's made plainly obvious with the War of the Fay that Cristanos and her husband were very much the same from Eqlive. it was during that war she finally took down her husband, and failed in an attempt on her son who would have been next in line.now unless in the time between the war of the fay, and present eq2 live someone did a LOT of killing/usurping/chaos, I don't see how those leaders could be the ones in true charge over the Tier'dal. christanos had the Arm, she had the loyalty of the lodge of the dead, and the church. with her husband gone, I don't see how anyone could have made and succeeded in a bid for power against her. as a necromancer she has more then enough power nd means to extend her life if need be, and has children of her own being 'groomed' for power.even the thexians claim that the same christanos that is ruling now is the one that attempted to kill the crown prince, and we know that was the same christanos from eqlive.</blockquote>Dark Elves live for over 500 years. There's no question that Christanos is the same one from EQlive... There are other Dark Elves who have been around since then too. One of the necromancer Guildmasters is found in Nektulos forest. There's just no way she could be the first Dark Elf queen in racial existence. There's no way they can live thousands of years.

Rainmare

03-06-2010, 04:42 PM

that's debatable. We still don't know how long elves might live. alot of use think they have a Tolkienish lifespan. age can't kill them but emotional/physical stress, blade, disease can.like Teren for example I think is at least a thousand. I know he's well over 500, that's for sure. he was considered an 'old soldier' in Eq1 when he was running Fironia's outpost. or like Elizerain. she's the only queen of the high elves we know about, we know leyna's mother was named that, adn I find it highly unlikely both had the 'rare gift' of foresight and just happened to share the same name. and she'd be well over 3k by the time of eq2.just as unlikely that Cristanos and Naythanox just happened to hate eachother like the original ones, both happen to be the same proffessions, share the same names, and run the same areas. in Eq1 they were heralded as being the originals of the race, as well.and now that we know thier timeframe from being snatched in eq, they'd been over 3k in eq1, as well....since they were taken before the desert of ro formed. and that was 3k years ago during/around the Lost Age.

Nightshade

03-06-2010, 05:13 PM

Who's to say she isn't half undead by this time? Look who she surrounds herself with.

Cusashorn

03-06-2010, 11:24 PM

shadowedwolf

03-07-2010, 12:19 AM

Toxic, you asked about books... it might be worth noting that, though non-canon, there are a couple PS2 games that have a little bit of Norrath lore in them as well. Champions of Norrath and CoN: Return to Arms... I know one of them has you fighting in the War of the Faydwer.

Vaedaer

03-07-2010, 01:19 AM

<cite>shadowedwolf wrote:</cite><blockquote>Toxic, you asked about books... it might be worth noting that, though non-canon, there are a couple PS2 games that have a little bit of Norrath lore in them as well. Champions of Norrath and CoN: Return to Arms... I know one of them has you fighting in the War of the Faydwer.</blockquote>Champions of Norrath is really fun but lore-wise is a mess of a game ... pit of ill omen being the biggest one imo >_>those really have nothing to do with EQ other than the names of the npcs xp

Cusashorn

03-07-2010, 03:51 AM

<cite>shadowedwolf wrote:</cite><blockquote>Toxic, you asked about books... it might be worth noting that, though non-canon, there are a couple PS2 games that have a little bit of Norrath lore in them as well. Champions of Norrath and CoN: Return to Arms... I know one of them has you fighting in the War of the Faydwer.</blockquote>Actually, you're given the option of attacking the city of Kelethin for the evil story path in Return to Arms, but it's not part of the War of the Fay. The games are based around Planes of Power-era EQlive, and has nothing to do with EQ2 at all.

Meirril

03-07-2010, 07:24 AM

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>that's debatable. We still don't know how long elves might live. alot of use think they have a Tolkienish lifespan. age can't kill them but emotional/physical stress, blade, disease can.like Teren for example I think is at least a thousand. I know he's well over 500, that's for sure. he was considered an 'old soldier' in Eq1 when he was running Fironia's outpost. or like Elizerain. she's the only queen of the high elves we know about, we know leyna's mother was named that, adn I find it highly unlikely both had the 'rare gift' of foresight and just happened to share the same name. and she'd be well over 3k by the time of eq2.just as unlikely that Cristanos and Naythanox just happened to hate eachother like the original ones, both happen to be the same proffessions, share the same names, and run the same areas. in Eq1 they were heralded as being the originals of the race, as well.and now that we know thier timeframe from being snatched in eq, they'd been over 3k in eq1, as well....since they were taken before the desert of ro formed. and that was 3k years ago during/around the Lost Age.</blockquote>Well, there is in-game lore that says a succession of Kings and Queens have risen to power over time. Go into Fallen Gate and you have monuments that attest to that. That was listed earlier IN THIS THREAD.Also, do you find it strange that political rivals in Nerriak would hate each other? A race that openly embrasses Innoruuk as its father would have trouble working together and actually have secret plotting against each other in the same family? Or that they would take the names of their predicessors to strengthen and legitimize their claims? Tier'dal lore is chocked full of examples of why this is totally credible! What is hard to believe is how 2 tier'dal could ever work together or fall in love! If I was a tier'dal in search of love, I certainly wouldn't persue another tier'dal because I couldn't trust her unless she felt she was totally in contol! Even if you were the dominant one, you would be an idiot not to suspect treachery if you showed a moment of weakness or feeling for your "loved" one.The Tier'dal like to present a perty picture, but if any race would lie about its own history to its own people this is the race.

Rezikai

03-07-2010, 08:31 AM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>that's debatable. We still don't know how long elves might live. alot of use think they have a Tolkienish lifespan. age can't kill them but emotional/physical stress, blade, disease can.like Teren for example I think is at least a thousand. I know he's well over 500, that's for sure. he was considered an 'old soldier' in Eq1 when he was running Fironia's outpost. or like Elizerain. she's the only queen of the high elves we know about, we know leyna's mother was named that, adn I find it highly unlikely both had the 'rare gift' of foresight and just happened to share the same name. and she'd be well over 3k by the time of eq2.just as unlikely that Cristanos and Naythanox just happened to hate eachother like the original ones, both happen to be the same proffessions, share the same names, and run the same areas. in Eq1 they were heralded as being the originals of the race, as well.and now that we know thier timeframe from being snatched in eq, they'd been over 3k in eq1, as well....since they were taken before the desert of ro formed. and that was 3k years ago during/around the Lost Age.</blockquote>Well, what about Neriak in EQOA? Do we know who was rulling the city in that game? I know I've stated time and again that there are parts of EQOA I'd rather not consider canon, even though EQ2 has done so from time to time, but for the Dark Elves, I'm curious to know who was rulling the city back then.</blockquote>Neriak in EQoA was... awesome, the mere entrance on the side of the mountain alone made the entrance from eq1 and eq2 pale in comparison. It had large thorn shaped stone spires filled with Dragoons and the massive ramping entrance...But i digress... the rulers of Neriak in EQoA were the Royals Naythox and Cristanos, however they arent represented in-game. The back of EQoA's Neriak had a huge crystal door, seperating that closest section of the more noble houses to the Royals section and the guards even mentioned that beyond the massive crystal doors lies Darklight Palace and the King Naythox and Queen Cristanos Thex, however the say that Cristanos is in stasis, some odd sleep that they cannot speak of openly. Most of us thought it was just a quest never finished and left it at that.As a theory about the different Royals ruling the crown Vhalen has said before that Dark elves lived and royals were around before the "Thex" Dynasty. It's refrenced in an old post of his about the <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=187454" target="_blank">Dolls of Nyth.</a>Which begs the question how many ages passed before the Thex's became a dynasty meaning more then the 2 original rulers and heck who ruled before the Thex's?! zomg!

Ahlana

03-07-2010, 08:35 AM

IS EQOA Still running? SF was well short even for non-rushers and I think I might like to give this a try if I can play it on PS3 (which I probably can't since I don't have a backwards compatible one) But if anyone can tell me either way!

Rezikai

03-07-2010, 02:05 PM

<cite>Ahlana wrote:</cite><blockquote>IS EQOA Still running? SF was well short even for non-rushers and I think I might like to give this a try if I can play it on PS3 (which I probably can't since I don't have a backwards compatible one) But if anyone can tell me either way!</blockquote>yea it still is... Castle Lightwolf is the only server w/ a population outside of a few raid guilds on each other server though.... if you start it.. be mindfull.. 2002 graphics for a ps2.

Cusashorn

03-07-2010, 03:12 PM

Wasn't it also stated that it was practically tradition for the names of Nathox and Christanos Thex to be taken up by the current ruling king and queen?

Rezikai

03-07-2010, 03:39 PM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wasn't it also stated that it was practically tradition for the names of Nathox and Christanos Thex to be taken up by the current ruling king and queen?</blockquote>if i remember correctly yea.. and to be honest unless the originals became immortal somehow i dont see them being the original Naythox and Cristanos.

Jaranna

03-07-2010, 07:52 PM

Seeing as the elves were created by the Goddess of Growth (i.e. Life) and that the king and queen of the high elves were turned into dark elves by Innoruuk himself, I don't think it's a stretch that the all the elf races could live for millennia. I'm personally of the opinion that the age ranges given in the RPG were a holdout from the 3rd-edition SRD, because there are just way too many hints in the lore at immortal or near-immortal elves.But, honestly, until such time as SOE publishes an EQ lore bible, we'll be having these types of discussion of what is and isn't canon, or what really happened. I don't believe that any book or questline in the game can be taken as canon, because personal recounts of history are biased by personal perceptions and preconceptions (the exceptions, of course, being events that happen during the time of the game itself). The truth of the author is not necessarily fact.

Nightshade

03-07-2010, 08:32 PM

BleemTeam

03-07-2010, 08:48 PM

+1

ke'la

03-07-2010, 09:32 PM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wasn't it also stated that it was practically tradition for the names of Nathox and Christanos Thex to be taken up by the current ruling king and queen?</blockquote>Well that is the tradition in Qeynos, more or less. So I don't see any reason why not to keep it in Neriak too.As for alot of Near Immortal people really most of them have infact been explained, and many of them arn't even Elfs remember Marigul dates from around the time of Eruid and his followers leaving the humans and becoming Eruidites, and he was one of those that left.

Pahya

03-08-2010, 01:02 AM

<cite>Jaranna wrote:</cite><blockquote>But, honestly, until such time as SOE publishes an EQ lore bible, we'll be having these types of discussion of what is and isn't canon, or what really happened. I don't believe that any book or questline in the game can be taken as canon, because personal recounts of history are biased by personal perceptions and preconceptions (the exceptions, of course, being events that happen during the time of the game itself). The truth of the author is not necessarily fact.</blockquote>I think maybe you have a misunderstanding about what the term "canon" means when it comes to created universes. Canon doesn't mean "true and proven from the point of view of an character in the world". Canon means "written by the creators and owners of the media and contained in the primary source of the universe". Thus, anything in EQ2, despite any of the things you mention, is canon. And tossing out countless canon sources of information, to perpetuate an idea that you simply like the feel of and then claiming that canon itself doesn't exist is slightly silly. There are many things in game that clearly give an impression of the average age of an Elf even if the age spans are never explicitly stated (for the same reason that dates and timelines are nerver perfectly clear, it's a vast world and a little bit of leniency in strict dates is required to make stories work, especially when in the hands of multiple writers) The mere fact that we're not over run with multi thousand year old Koada'dal who were picking daisies in the age of the Combine empire is really proof enough. Not, that I think logical argument on this point will change your mind since you actually referenced the lifespan of Tolkien's elves as a source of proof Norrathian elves can live for multiple millenia o.O

Jaranna

03-08-2010, 03:06 AM

<cite>Pahya wrote:</cite><blockquote> Not, that I think logical argument on this point will change your mind since you actually referenced the lifespan of Tolkien's elves as a source of proof Norrathian elves can live for multiple millenia o.O </blockquote>Might want to check your sources there. The word "Tolkien" has appeared four times in this thread, not counting quotes of previous posts. The posters were Cusashorn, Lodrelhai, Pahya and Rainmare. You'll notice that list does not include me. I didn't mention Tolkien's elves. I said that EQ itself has hinted that elves can live for millennia. If you cannot accept that point, then it is you (not I) who refuses to listen to logical argument.

therodge

03-08-2010, 04:50 AM

<cite>Pahya wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jaranna wrote:</cite><blockquote>But, honestly, until such time as SOE publishes an EQ lore bible, we'll be having these types of discussion of what is and isn't canon, or what really happened. I don't believe that any book or questline in the game can be taken as canon, because personal recounts of history are biased by personal perceptions and preconceptions (the exceptions, of course, being events that happen during the time of the game itself). The truth of the author is not necessarily fact.</blockquote>I think maybe you have a misunderstanding about what the term "canon" means when it comes to created universes. Canon doesn't mean "true and proven from the point of view of an character in the world". Canon means "written by the creators and owners of the media and contained in the primary source of the universe". Thus, anything in EQ2, despite any of the things you mention, is canon. And tossing out countless canon sources of information, to perpetuate an idea that you simply like the feel of and then claiming that canon itself doesn't exist is slightly silly. There are many things in game that clearly give an impression of the average age of an Elf even if the age spans are never explicitly stated (for the same reason that dates and timelines are nerver perfectly clear, it's a vast world and a little bit of leniency in strict dates is required to make stories work, especially when in the hands of multiple writers) The mere fact that we're not over run with multi thousand year old Koada'dal who were picking daisies in the age of the Combine empire is really proof enough. Not, that I think logical argument on this point will change your mind since you actually referenced the lifespan of Tolkien's elves as a source of proof Norrathian elves can live for multiple millenia o.O </blockquote>what hes saying is that canon can only be determined by the player being or witnessing the experience due to wait for it.... good writing. for instance nagefen said kerafyrm destroyed luclin, did he acually? we dont know and its looking like probobly not, why? becuase nagefen is the type of charichter to lie and manipulate. throughout eq2s history we have been lied to for the good of the story thats good story telling. the only true cannon is something the developers say out of game to us period.

Mary the Prophetess

03-08-2010, 06:00 AM

Before the creation of the Teir 'Dal there were simply Elves. These have been called 'Elder Elves' at times, and there have been hints in the past by a certain bard of note, that these 'Elder Elves' were in some way longer lived or in some fashion 'different' than the subsequent races of Elves which followed.The original king and queen of these Elder Elves were king Naythox and queen Cristanos. As they were the 'original' rulers of the Elves, they were, (at least before theri transformation into Teir 'Dal), Elder Elves.I too remember reading Jaranna's creation story somewhere, and am searching to find the reference. I am fairly certain it was from within EQ Live or EQ2, but have not found it yet.At any rate, those loyal followers that attempted to rescue their king and queen, (such as Opal and Aataltaal), were likewise Elder Elves (at least initially).All of these personages, Naythox, Cristanos, Opal, Aataltaal, seem to have had exceptionally long lives (at least when compared to the PnP age guidelines [which are all we really have])Just something to add to the discussion.

ke'la

03-08-2010, 06:08 AM

<cite>Pahya wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jaranna wrote:</cite><blockquote>But, honestly, until such time as SOE publishes an EQ lore bible, we'll be having these types of discussion of what is and isn't canon, or what really happened. I don't believe that any book or questline in the game can be taken as canon, because personal recounts of history are biased by personal perceptions and preconceptions (the exceptions, of course, being events that happen during the time of the game itself). The truth of the author is not necessarily fact.</blockquote>I think maybe you have a misunderstanding about what the term "canon" means when it comes to created universes. Canon doesn't mean "true and proven from the point of view of an character in the world". Canon means "written by the creators and owners of the media and contained in the primary source of the universe". Thus, anything in EQ2, despite any of the things you mention, is canon. The thing is the devs themselfs have flat out said don't take anything in game as 100% accurate or even remotly cannon, as a)"people" lie, b)everyones point of view is different, c)history is written by the victors. Basically EQ2's Cannon is just as flexable as say Earths History is. Yes certain events we know for a fact happend, in part because they happened in Living Memory, and in part because of very good record keeping, but a great deal of it, especally the older it gets is subject to interpritation and in some cases wild guesses that sound plasable. Now, unlike Earth the living memory of Norath is far longer, however most of the keepers of that memory can hardly be deemed trustworthy.And tossing out countless canon sources of information, to perpetuate an idea that you simply like the feel of and then claiming that canon itself doesn't exist is slightly silly. There are many things in game that clearly give an impression of the average age of an Elf even if the age spans are never explicitly stated (for the same reason that dates and timelines are nerver perfectly clear, it's a vast world and a little bit of leniency in strict dates is required to make stories work, especially when in the hands of multiple writers) The mere fact that we're not over run with multi thousand year old Koada'dal who were picking daisies in the age of the Combine empire is really proof enough. Not, that I think logical argument on this point will change your mind since you actually referenced the lifespan of Tolkien's elves as a source of proof Norrathian elves can live for multiple millenia o.O </blockquote>

Rezikai

03-08-2010, 07:30 AM

<cite>Mary the Prophetess wrote:</cite><blockquote>Before the creation of the Teir 'Dal there were simply Elves. These have been called 'Elder Elves' at times, and there have been hints in the past by a certain bard of note, that these 'Elder Elves' were in some way longer lived or in some fashion 'different' than the subsequent races of Elves which followed.The original king and queen of these Elder Elves were king Naythox and queen Cristanos. As they were the 'original' rulers of the Elves, they were, (at least before theri transformation into Teir 'Dal), Elder Elves.I too remember reading Jaranna's creation story somewhere, and am searching to find the reference. I am fairly certain it was from within EQ Live or EQ2, but have not found it yet.At any rate, those loyal followers that attempted to rescue their king and queen, (such as Opal and Aataltaal), were likewise Elder Elves (at least initially).All of these personages, Naythox, Cristanos, Opal, Aataltaal, seem to have had exceptionally long lives (at least when compared to the PnP age guidelines [which are all we really have])Just something to add to the discussion.</blockquote>Highlited for meaning.... which makes one think the Elddar elves we had them in eqoa and they were hinted at very much the same way. Perhaps it has to do with the Elddar Forest, and its destruction or the subsequent burining/withering away of it in some way is disruptive to the harmonic way elves and nature were supposed to work together. Perhaps when the elddar was destroyed with it much of the original races immortality.

Meirril

03-08-2010, 08:57 AM

<cite>Mary the Prophetess wrote:</cite><blockquote>Before the creation of the Teir 'Dal there were simply Elves. These have been called 'Elder Elves' at times, and there have been hints in the past by a certain bard of note, that these 'Elder Elves' were in some way longer lived or in some fashion 'different' than the subsequent races of Elves which followed.The original king and queen of these Elder Elves were king Naythox and queen Cristanos. As they were the 'original' rulers of the Elves, they were, (at least before theri transformation into Teir 'Dal), Elder Elves.I too remember reading Jaranna's creation story somewhere, and am searching to find the reference. I am fairly certain it was from within EQ Live or EQ2, but have not found it yet.At any rate, those loyal followers that attempted to rescue their king and queen, (such as Opal and Aataltaal), were likewise Elder Elves (at least initially).All of these personages, Naythox, Cristanos, Opal, Aataltaal, seem to have had exceptionally long lives (at least when compared to the PnP age guidelines [which are all we really have])Just something to add to the discussion.</blockquote>Elddar (notice the second D) signifies that they lived in the Elddar forest. The Elddar forest was the name of the forest that Ro turned into a desert and the elves had to abandon back when Antonica was called Tunaria and the Elves ruled it.Nothing about the lore surrounding Elddar elves signifies that they lived any longer than another high elf. Doing the New Tunaria quest lines (including the HQ for the shield that is just outside of New Tunaria) gets you in contact with some pre-rending elves. Quest dialogue indicates that they are in their old age but wern't during the Age of Turmoil. So 500 years seems to push an adult Koada'dal into their twilight years.A better gauge of how old an elf can grow is one of the few elves where we can track their birth and aging. The only one that comes to mind is Fierona Vie. There is lore that includes her birth, comming of age, and if not her death then at least her becomming past her prime. I'll leave it up to someone that wants to dig through EQ1's Lore to find dates.

Rainmare

03-08-2010, 02:12 PM

it's not so much about political rivalries in the Tier'dal as it was just WAY to convient. the King of Eq1, touted to be THE original in eqlive, had the backing of the Indigo Brotherhood, and the Spurned. the Queen, had the backing of the Lodge of the Dead, and the priest guild.then we get to the war of the Fay. Naythnox is still a warrior. he still rules the warriors guild, and the spurned. Cristanos still has the loyalty of the lodge and the priests. Cristanos has her Arm, assassinates her husband, attempts on the life of her son.the indigo brotherhood and the spurned STILL don't trust or like her. the priests have dissented over her claims of divinity..but the lodge is still firmly in her corner.she's still very much a necro as she's been touted to be/became since the tier'dal inception.while I coudl say that the names being taken up in homage might work, I can't see every queen in neriak becoming a necromancer and having the loyalty of the lodge and the priests 'traditionally'. Tier'dal just aren't that trusting.we have no record, at all, of any elf dying of old age. almost every mention of a dying elf is in a battle, or of a disease, or of some kind of stress. I think even Elizerain, Lenya's mother was said to have died 'grief-stricken' over the loss of her husband in the War of the Fay.Heck Najena in EQ1 was a well accomplished and by no means young elf then, and she's still very hearty and hale 500 years later. and we have teren, well over 500 as well. prolly both them are nearer to a millenium in age, if not older. there seems to be more then enough evidence to plausibly say that Norrath's elves, like Middle earth's are Timeless.

Cusashorn

03-08-2010, 03:45 PM

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>we have no record, at all, of any elf dying of old age. almost every mention of a dying elf is in a battle, or of a disease, or of some kind of stress. I think even Elizerain, Lenya's mother was said to have died 'grief-stricken' over the loss of her husband in the War of the Fay.Heck Najena in EQ1 was a well accomplished and by no means young elf then, and she's still very hearty and hale 500 years later. and we have teren, well over 500 as well. prolly both them are nearer to a millenium in age, if not older. there seems to be more then enough evidence to plausibly say that Norrath's elves, like Middle earth's are Timeless.</blockquote>According to the PnP game, Dark Elves live to be about 650-700 years old, and High Elves to 800.I'll give you that Terran calls himself an "old elf" in EQlive, but 250 years isn't exactly young either.On the contrary, I don't believe we have any evidence at all to suggest that elves are timeless. We don't know how old they were in EQlive, and we don't know how old they are now.I'd be more inclined to believe they are if there was a much larger number of mortal NPC's from EQlive who are still around today. Lets list them off:- Eva Corunno'thes: High Elf involved in Firiona Vie's storyline and now Tunare's Prophet who acknowledged when she first showed up in game that she's been around to see the last 500 years.- Princess Lenya Thex, now Queen of New Tunaria.- Queen Christanos Thex: Dark Elf. Her current state of mind suggests that she could be inhabited by something otherworldly.- Noxhil V'Sek: Found in Nektulos Forest, he used to be a necromancer who lived in The Lodging of the Dead in Neriak.- Danak Dhorentath: An iksar from the Firiona Vie timelines and currently Cazic Thule's prophet. He's only around because the developers admitted they pretty much just wanted him to be in the game.- Fiddy Bobbick: Famous Halfling from EQlive (though he wasn't the least bit important save for an obscure newbie quest in Rivervale back then.) The only reason he *WAS* still alive was because he was being inhabited by a void invader.. until we killed him.- Sir Hobble: A near-sighted and somewhat incompetant High Elf involved in the Wurmslayer quest. Currently resides in Barren Sky, though he shows no further signs of near-sightedness.- Squire Fuzzmin: Sir Hobble's Halfling assistant from EQlive. His continued existence isn't even brought into question.- Kizdean Gix: Dark Elf. Admittedly, I don't know what his current state is since I haven't completed the Blackmail Gauntlets HQ.- Terren: High Elf and former guard of the Firiona Vie outpost, now the leader of Terren's Grasp.- Najena: Dark Elf who is still conducting research in Lavastorm after all this time.- Opal Darkbriar: Dark Elf. Former leader of both the Academy of Arcane Sciences and Dismal Rage in EQlive, she stole off with the Soulfire and was killed off in the Assassin Epic.This is certainly a sizable list there, but if the elves were truely timeless, then I'd think the list would be much larger. I would think that most of the common Merchants and the like probably would still be living in Neriak or weren't killed during the War of the Fay.

Jaranna

03-08-2010, 08:33 PM

The major figure supporting the longevity of the elves is Aataltaal. He was around during the heyday of the Combine Empire, and he founded Freeport. He is still out and about in EQ2, though we never see him (at least as Aataltaal). Check the Tarton's Wheel quest. Aataltaal is the one who penned the journal found in the chest on the Thundering Steppes. He locked the chest with a spell and keyed two gems to unlock it. He then sent one to Freeport and one to Qeynos.In the story, he believed that he was too high-profile a figure to wield the Wheel without constant harassment from the gods. So, he provided clues to reconstruct it, hoping that the one who could do so would wield the Wheel for the betterment of Norrath (or something like that).Aataltaal still is out there, but he always remains in the background.

Meirril

03-08-2010, 11:17 PM

<cite>Jaranna wrote:</cite><blockquote>The major figure supporting the longevity of the elves is Aataltaal. He was around during the heyday of the Combine Empire, and he founded Freeport. He is still out and about in EQ2, though we never see him (at least as Aataltaal). Check the Tarton's Wheel quest. Aataltaal is the one who penned the journal found in the chest on the Thundering Steppes. He locked the chest with a spell and keyed two gems to unlock it. He then sent one to Freeport and one to Qeynos.In the story, he believed that he was too high-profile a figure to wield the Wheel without constant harassment from the gods. So, he provided clues to reconstruct it, hoping that the one who could do so would wield the Wheel for the betterment of Norrath (or something like that).Aataltaal still is out there, but he always remains in the background.</blockquote>1) The books themselves arn't cannon material. Just because some of the previous lore of EQ1 was used by the writer, and some of the ideas from the books have been used by Devs afterward doesn't mean that everything that happens in the books is Lore.2) Lore suggests that Freeport and Qeynos both existed during the Combine Empire, and actually probably pre-date the Empire. I'd have to re-read the Ethernaught lore, but I think there is a refrence to a port city the Elddar were using to evacuate that sounds like a pre-curser to Freeport?3) Tarton's Wheel existed in EQ1 before the books. Quite possibly before the character Aataltaal was created.4) And yes, Aataltaal is still out there: Waiting for devs to make up more stories about him.

Jaranna

03-09-2010, 01:05 AM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>1) The books themselves arn't cannon material. Just because some of the previous lore of EQ1 was used by the writer, and some of the ideas from the books have been used by Devs afterward doesn't mean that everything that happens in the books is Lore.2) Lore suggests that Freeport and Qeynos both existed during the Combine Empire, and actually probably pre-date the Empire. I'd have to re-read the Ethernaught lore, but I think there is a refrence to a port city the Elddar were using to evacuate that sounds like a pre-curser to Freeport?3) Tarton's Wheel existed in EQ1 before the books. Quite possibly before the character Aataltaal was created.4) And yes, Aataltaal is still out there: Waiting for devs to make up more stories about him.</blockquote>2) It's very possible that Qeynos existed during the Age of Combine. Without hard dates of both the founding of Qeynos and the establishment and exodus of the Combine Empire, it's hard to say. We do know, though, that the Combine Empire was mostly human in makeup, which means it was created after Erollisi guided the first barbarians to the plains of Karana. The port city to which you are referring is Weille, a dark elf port on the eastern coast of Tunaria. The elves of Takish-Hiz sacked the town as they went through it to flee the encroachment of the desert on their home. After that it served as a haven for pirates. Aataltaal knew of the town, and led humans there after the followers of Tsaph Katta fled from Norrath. They called their new town Landing, and Aataltaal served as its governor as it was built up into a true home for the humans. After the Long Night, Aataltaal left the humans to make their own way. Landing then became known as Freeport.3) Tarton's Wheel was not created by Aataltaal. It is, after all, not called Aataltaal's Wheel. Tarton created the wheel to travel the planes. Aataltaal thought the Wheel would serve as a way to travel to the heart of the universe, where he could actually kill Innoruuk permanently. As to what was made first, it's unknown. As far back as I can remember, Aataltaal's name has been associated with the founding of Freeport, and I most definitely remember hearing his name before reading Ocean of Tears.4) Here you prove my point: Aataltaal is an exceptionally long-lived elf. The question is, though, is he the exception or the norm? Remember that the world is more than a few handfuls of NPCs that stand around waiting to talk to adventurers. It is populated with thousands upon thousands of people just going about their daily lives that we don't see because they're unimportant to the game.1) At the risk of sounding like Bill Clinton, it depends on your definition of canon. Each IP determines canonical works in different ways. For Middle Earth, canon is the books written by Tolkien himself as well as correspondence discussing the works. For Star Wars, there are four levels of canon, starting with the pure "G-canon" of the movies, radio dramas and so on to the S-canon of things like Star Wars Galaxies. (There also is a level below that called N-canon, which just means non-canon).So, in the case of EverQuest, what is canon? Is it just the game itself? Is it just the stuff written by Bill Trost and Tony Garcia? As I said before, until this definition is settled, arguments will persist. My personal definition of canon for EQ is what actually happened. Lore is the flavor and "dressing up" of those events to fit in with the world view of their respective fictional authors.

Cusashorn

03-09-2010, 01:58 AM

The Author of Ocean of Tears mentioned when he wrote the book that he liked to use parts of the lore from Everquest, but in no way claimed that any of it was official for the game.Who's to say that Aataaltall ever existed to begin with? He's certainly never been shown in any of the games or had any specific importances to the storylines. His entire being is concentrated entirely to the Tarton's Wheel questline in both games, and the quest itself isn't anything significant towards Norrath as a whole.

KniteShayd

03-09-2010, 02:03 AM

I'd be willing to wager that the Elddar Elves, and the Original Dark Elves that came from the Plane of Hate, have a somewhat different biology (and way of interaction with Norrath) as it evolved environmentaly. Imagine if you move to a location that was affected by radiation. Your offspring may come out a lil different, being concieved and born in the new location, than they would have back in your old location that was radio active free. I'm guessing the same can be said about being born in the Elddar, which was originally created by Tunare for the elves, and then having a baby on Faydwer. The Elddar Elves Still probably maintained some, if not all of there divine gifts after they left. The gifts were just not transferable to the new offspring. Or, if they were, probably just faded out over time; much like making a copy of a copy.We know that the Wood and High Elves were never considered as such, until after the Elves left the Elddar Forest. Once they settled on Faydwer, and some in FP, they inhabited locations based on preferance. And based on those locations their offspring evolved to what we see today. And yes, we know that Eylee was already considered a Wood Elf when she ran into Queen Elizerain, but The Elddar was not destroyed overnight. Which gives some Elves time to populate other areas of the world before the queen's last parties departed the now wasted forest.Therefore, I think it is completely logical for some elves to be around since the EQOA timelines.Also, if Queen Christanos had the orignal knowledge of the Lifetap technique, whose to say she didn't survive all this time on that alone?...

Meirril

03-09-2010, 04:29 AM

<cite>Jaranna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>1) The books themselves arn't cannon material. Just because some of the previous lore of EQ1 was used by the writer, and some of the ideas from the books have been used by Devs afterward doesn't mean that everything that happens in the books is Lore.2) Lore suggests that Freeport and Qeynos both existed during the Combine Empire, and actually probably pre-date the Empire. I'd have to re-read the Ethernaught lore, but I think there is a refrence to a port city the Elddar were using to evacuate that sounds like a pre-curser to Freeport?3) Tarton's Wheel existed in EQ1 before the books. Quite possibly before the character Aataltaal was created.4) And yes, Aataltaal is still out there: Waiting for devs to make up more stories about him.</blockquote>2) It's very possible that Qeynos existed during the Age of Combine. Without hard dates of both the founding of Qeynos and the establishment and exodus of the Combine Empire, it's hard to say. We do know, though, that the Combine Empire was mostly human in makeup, which means it was created after Erollisi guided the first barbarians to the plains of Karana. The port city to which you are referring is Weille, a dark elf port on the eastern coast of Tunaria. The elves of Takish-Hiz sacked the town as they went through it to flee the encroachment of the desert on their home. After that it served as a haven for pirates. Aataltaal knew of the town, and led humans there after the followers of Tsaph Katta fled from Norrath. They called their new town Landing, and Aataltaal served as its governor as it was built up into a true home for the humans. After the Long Night, Aataltaal left the humans to make their own way. Landing then became known as Freeport.3) Tarton's Wheel was not created by Aataltaal. It is, after all, not called Aataltaal's Wheel. Tarton created the wheel to travel the planes. Aataltaal thought the Wheel would serve as a way to travel to the heart of the universe, where he could actually kill Innoruuk permanently. As to what was made first, it's unknown. As far back as I can remember, Aataltaal's name has been associated with the founding of Freeport, and I most definitely remember hearing his name before reading Ocean of Tears.4) Here you prove my point: Aataltaal is an exceptionally long-lived elf. The question is, though, is he the exception or the norm? Remember that the world is more than a few handfuls of NPCs that stand around waiting to talk to adventurers. It is populated with thousands upon thousands of people just going about their daily lives that we don't see because they're unimportant to the game.1) At the risk of sounding like Bill Clinton, it depends on your definition of canon. Each IP determines canonical works in different ways. For Middle Earth, canon is the books written by Tolkien himself as well as correspondence discussing the works. For Star Wars, there are four levels of canon, starting with the pure "G-canon" of the movies, radio dramas and so on to the S-canon of things like Star Wars Galaxies. (There also is a level below that called N-canon, which just means non-canon).So, in the case of EverQuest, what is canon? Is it just the game itself? Is it just the stuff written by Bill Trost and Tony Garcia? As I said before, until this definition is settled, arguments will persist. My personal definition of canon for EQ is what actually happened. Lore is the flavor and "dressing up" of those events to fit in with the world view of their respective fictional authors.</blockquote>When I said "Aataltaal is still out there" that was an alagory. Like the 500 lbs gorilla in the room, nobody wants to talk about him because he might take offense if someone noticed. The idea is out there, waiting for the devs to grab on with both hands and force his presence into EQ2. I'm sorry that you mistook that as an indication that I believe he is still around like King Authar is still around waiting for Great Brittan's hour of greatest need (so where was Authar during WWII?).As for what is Lore in EQ2...that definition was given to us at the start of EQ2. What is in the game of EQ2 plus what was part of EQ1 as of the end of the Planes of Power expansion. This was given to us by the development staff. If that isn't good enough for you, then nothing is and we can stop talking about it.

Mary the Prophetess

03-09-2010, 10:29 AM

Developers round tables, their posts on forums, official EQ/EQ2 press releases and promotional material from SOE, and the official EQ and EQ2 atlas' are all considered canon as well, are they not?

Rainmare

03-09-2010, 11:36 AM

that's it we all need to go to fan faire and ask if Christanos is the oringial, if elves are not affected by time for a cause of death, and if the Feedback caused the Shattering ;P

Pahya

03-09-2010, 05:42 PM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>4) And yes, Aataltaal is still out there: Waiting for devs to make up more stories about him.</blockquote>Of course he's still out there, or at least his mechanations are still at work. It can't be a coincidence that the name of the Dark Elf leader of the Crushbone orcs in EQ2 (D'Vinn) is the exact same name that Aataltaal uses as a Dark Elf and the name that he warns the second "original" Crush to tell his descendants to be on the look out for.Ocean of Tears, page 43-44 Crush asked, "Are you Lifedrinker or are you a Teir'dal?" That lord Crush asked such a question was answer enough for the shapechanger, but Aataltaal answered as if Lord Crush posed the question he should have asked. Agin the sibilant voice of a dark elf, though he wore the guise of an orc, Lifedrinker answered, "To all but yourself I shall remain the Ashen One or whatever name they choose to describe me. But in private, you may call me ... D'vinn."Also from Ocean of Tears, note that the Crush mentioned in this excert is not the same crush as in the first but another orc who Aataltaal has placed on illusion on to take the place of the first Crush. His voice that of a crafty conspirator, Crush asked, "So it wasn't really the revelation of your indentity that excluded him from your plans?" The shaman smiled, "Very well, ambitions one. I have little time and must leave you before you return to your land at the Bloodwine. As we discussed, that is my only price - that you return and maintain Crushbone as your ancestral orcish home. Well, that and that some years hence your son, or your son's son, who shall carry on your name of Crush, shall welcome a dark elven ambassador named D'vinn and trust him implicitly."So, there's a very good chance that Aataaltal -is- in EQ2. Just very few people have noticed as they kill him in Crushbone Keep. Of course, Aataaltal was such a brilliant and patience plan layer that this D'vinn could be another that he expected but either way, either Aataaltal is currently alive and in the game, or at the least the plans he laid for the death of Innoruuk are still unflolding.Which makes me wonder, given the current Teir'dal queens mechanations and apparent plan to get her hands on the godslayers (<a href="http://www.lorelibrary.com/?page=website&wid=101">http://www.lorelibrary.com/?page=website&wid=101</a>) if he didn't have a hand in that too.

Nightshade

03-10-2010, 08:36 PM

Okay, so somewhat back to the original post, I'm noticing that there are indeed a 'lot' of people who use Ilythiiri (D&D dark elven language) in EQ2.Now instead of becoming grumpy about this, I put a little thought into it.Is there a canon, usable Teir'dal language in EQ2 for people to use? I don't mean hitting chat options and selecting it, I mean an actual SOE or solid fan-made site with a translator.Now, hopefully without offending anyone, I pose this question: If there is indeed no solid EQ2 Dark Elven language, why couldn't D&D's Dark Elven language be adapted to use in EQ2 so long as the people using it understand the differences between the campaigns/races?Example translation:Dorn mechrola dosst quortek ka dos iglata ulu ul'nusst.To me this has a lot more flavor than toggling a language on. It may not be strictly canon, but it's certainly used quite often and I actually see no harm in it (again so long as they understand that drow =/= dark elf).Again, if there is no pre-existing language, who is to say that this isn't what the dark elves sound like? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Cusashorn

03-10-2010, 09:40 PM

<cite>ToxicLullaby wrote:</cite><blockquote>Okay, so somewhat back to the original post, I'm noticing that there are indeed a 'lot' of people who use Ilythiiri (D&D dark elven language) in EQ2.Now instead of becoming grumpy about this, I put a little thought into it.Is there a canon, usable Teir'dal language in EQ2 for people to use? I don't mean hitting chat options and selecting it, I mean an actual SOE or solid fan-made site with a translator.Now, hopefully without offending anyone, I pose this question: If there is indeed no solid EQ2 Dark Elven language, why couldn't D&D's Dark Elven language be adapted to use in EQ2 so long as the people using it understand the differences between the campaigns/races?Example translation:Dorn mechrola dosst quortek ka dos iglata ulu ul'nusst.To me this has a lot more flavor than toggling a language on. It may not be strictly canon, but it's certainly used quite often and I actually see no harm in it (again so long as they understand that drow =/= dark elf).Again, if there is no pre-existing language, who is to say that this isn't what the dark elves sound like? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>The developers went to the lengths of creating a racial language font for all races in the game, but not the actual language outside of what you hear spoken now and then. Over the course of Everquest, there have been specific words and phrases that have been translated though.<a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Elvish_dictionary." target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Elvish_dictionary.</a> This applies to Elves entirely, not just the Dark Elves.As for D&D, I'm guessing copyright reasons prevented them from using the actual language. That, and not many players would have a clue what it was in the first place.

Pahya

03-11-2010, 03:31 PM

Some RPers use Drow, some RPers groan and face palm when someone throws a Vendui at them. I'm personally the latter, but given how often I hear it, I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority.

Jaranna

03-11-2010, 05:51 PM

For me, it comes down to the separation of IC and OOC.My character knows how to speak Thexian (or Teir'dal, or whatever you want to call it. Why the name change?). I do not. It makes no sense for my character to misunderstand a phrase because I don't know what someone is saying.My high elf tends to speak exclusively in Koada'Dal. I don't bust out the Quenya dictionary because it would be a very cumbersome process for me, it would take forever to say anything, and what I say should be immediately apparent to those who also speak the language.I don't believe using the drow language is bad roleplay by any means. I think that in the proper group it's a great tool for creating an atmosphere. However, in the world at large it can be aggravating to have to translate things when you already are supposed to know what is said.

Nightshade

03-11-2010, 09:01 PM

Ya it's been a pretty fun tool for exclusive roleplay with friends.I can't say as I'd go around using it in general chat with strangers though. Most of them probably don't even have access to the automated translator.

Meirril

03-12-2010, 10:50 AM

<cite>ToxicLullaby wrote:</cite><blockquote>Okay, so somewhat back to the original post, I'm noticing that there are indeed a 'lot' of people who use Ilythiiri (D&D dark elven language) in EQ2.Now instead of becoming grumpy about this, I put a little thought into it.Is there a canon, usable Teir'dal language in EQ2 for people to use? I don't mean hitting chat options and selecting it, I mean an actual SOE or solid fan-made site with a translator.Now, hopefully without offending anyone, I pose this question: If there is indeed no solid EQ2 Dark Elven language, why couldn't D&D's Dark Elven language be adapted to use in EQ2 so long as the people using it understand the differences between the campaigns/races?Example translation:Dorn mechrola dosst quortek ka dos iglata ulu ul'nusst.To me this has a lot more flavor than toggling a language on. It may not be strictly canon, but it's certainly used quite often and I actually see no harm in it (again so long as they understand that drow =/= dark elf).Again, if there is no pre-existing language, who is to say that this isn't what the dark elves sound like? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Ok, try this. Make a brand new Freeport based toon that is NOT a tier'dal. Go to Longshadow Alley and talk to every NPC until you find one with voice over. Oh, make sure you have voice over turned on. You will hear Tier'dal being spoken.Now if you want to try taking the very few smatterings of Tier'dal voice over herd in game, compaired to the NPC text you get from the same dialogue and actually make a translation and grammer guide...more power to you.As other people have mentioned, Tier'dal and every language in EQ2 has its own unique alphabet. Some of those alphabets don't match up with english's 26 letters. The people behind EQ2's Lore have been every bit as through as the best developers for D&D. More so in some aspects.p.s. Stout is the most trippy language of them all. Go to Baubleshire sometime and listen to the Stout voice overs there!

Pyra Shineflame

03-12-2010, 12:46 PM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ToxicLullaby wrote:</cite>p.s. Stout is the most trippy language of them all. Go to Baubleshire sometime and listen to the Stout voice overs there!</blockquote>I dunno, gnomish sounds pretty weird to me. Dragged my bigoted Arasai down there and wow, its like they're talking robot or something.

ke'la

03-12-2010, 04:01 PM

<cite>Zulaika@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ToxicLullaby wrote:</cite>p.s. Stout is the most trippy language of them all. Go to Baubleshire sometime and listen to the Stout voice overs there!</blockquote>I dunno, gnomish sounds pretty weird to me. Dragged my bigoted Arasai down there and wow, its like they're talking robot or something.</blockquote>I personally loved the voices of the Scarecrow things in Mcquibble's Farm. They where always saying things about shoes or something like that.

Rezikai

03-12-2010, 11:21 PM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ToxicLullaby wrote:</cite><blockquote>Okay, so somewhat back to the original post, I'm noticing that there are indeed a 'lot' of people who use Ilythiiri (D&D dark elven language) in EQ2.Now instead of becoming grumpy about this, I put a little thought into it.Is there a canon, usable Teir'dal language in EQ2 for people to use? I don't mean hitting chat options and selecting it, I mean an actual SOE or solid fan-made site with a translator.Now, hopefully without offending anyone, I pose this question: If there is indeed no solid EQ2 Dark Elven language, why couldn't D&D's Dark Elven language be adapted to use in EQ2 so long as the people using it understand the differences between the campaigns/races?Example translation:Dorn mechrola dosst quortek ka dos iglata ulu ul'nusst.To me this has a lot more flavor than toggling a language on. It may not be strictly canon, but it's certainly used quite often and I actually see no harm in it (again so long as they understand that drow =/= dark elf).Again, if there is no pre-existing language, who is to say that this isn't what the dark elves sound like? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Ok, try this. Make a brand new Freeport based toon that is NOT a tier'dal. Go to Longshadow Alley and talk to every NPC until you find one with voice over. Oh, make sure you have voice over turned on. You will hear Tier'dal being spoken.Now if you want to try taking the very few smatterings of Tier'dal voice over herd in game, compaired to the NPC text you get from the same dialogue and actually make a translation and grammer guide...more power to you.As other people have mentioned, Tier'dal and every language in EQ2 has its own unique alphabet. Some of those alphabets don't match up with english's 26 letters. The people behind EQ2's Lore have been every bit as through as the best developers for D&D. More so in some aspects.p.s. Stout is the most trippy language of them all. Go to Baubleshire sometime and listen to the Stout voice overs there!</blockquote>highlighted the noted part. It's because you either have your capslock on.. or capslock off for certain letters of some of the languages, I thought the same thing until a certain dark elf told me what i was doing wrong not to get all unique 26 for each race, Seems if your caps is .. on .. it will duplicate a rune in some of the alphabets for certain letters... why idk, they all have 26 individual runes, albeit some are VERY similar when looked at.And as for the sound of voice over language.. its a sound board trick when the mix/reverse english if i remember correctly. But they do have alot of different "kinds" of mixing for alot of the races and such.

Nightshade

03-12-2010, 11:54 PM

Well, so far I've been using this somewhat in my own recently aquired roleplay group.Every single one of them knew instantly what it was and where to find the translator without me even clarifying what language I was speaking. I think that probably speaks quite a bit for just how prevalent the 'misconception' of the languages is.I think I'll stick to it in private RP. It's been a fun flavor mix-in and a lot easier than trying to decipher tidbits of soundboard magic on some freeport NPC. :]Also, thanks for all the posts in this thread. It really helped me get aquainted with the game in some ways. And as a random side-note, I'm having a blast with the Anashti Sul timeline so far (just got started). Some fun tidbits of lore on the scrolls/books you have to find, and the NPC dialogue is well written.

Jaranna

03-31-2010, 06:31 PM

Apologies for the necro, but let it never be said the PoJaranna can't admit a mistake.I was reading up on NPC factions in my EQRPG DMG, and I came across these:Naythox Thex (The Dark Elf King)Alignment: OELocation: NeriakDescription: The dark elf king is one of two would-be rulers of the Teir'Dal. Despite the small fact that he is not of the royal bloodline, he crowned himself king, adopted the name of the dynasty that came before him and gathered supporters for his cause. The self-styled king and his followers seek to weaken the so-called Queen's claims on the throne.Leader: Naythox ThexAllies: The SpurnedEnemies: Queen Cristianos Thex, the DeadCristianos Thex (The Dark Elf Queen of Neriak)Alignment: OELocation: Neriak, AntonicaDescription: The dark elf Queen is one of two contenders for the throne. Despite the fact that she is not a true member of the royal bloodline, she adopted the name of the former dynasty and managed to gain the support of many in Neriak. She and her allies strive to manipulate and connive their way into greater power and authority.Leader: Cristianos ThexAllies: The DeadEnemies: The Spurned, King Naythox ThexSo, I'm not sure where I saw that the king and queen in Live were the originals. Perhaps it was my overactive imagination that filled in the blanks. Perhaps I'll rip off the idea for my own D&D campaign. Now, the question remains: How did Cristanos become a goa'uld?

Lodrelhai

04-01-2010, 10:29 PM

I think the new Mirthday quest shows that the developers very much acknowledge the game's roots in AD&D.Quest reward: <a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Stone_of_Gygax" target="_blank">Stone of Gygax.</a> <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" />

Cusashorn

04-02-2010, 02:25 AM

I don't think an April Fools Day-only quest that gives a shout out to one of the most well known figures in all of geekdom is anything terribly special. It is a great reward, but just because they acknowledge him doesn't mean that the Dark Elf language is based off D&D origins... Even if Norrath and Everquest itself was originally thought up as a result of a D&D compain..

ke'la

04-02-2010, 02:54 AM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't think an April Fools Day-only quest that gives a shout out to one of the most well known figures in all of geekdom is anything terribly special. It is a great reward, but just because they acknowledge him doesn't mean that the Dark Elf language is based off D&D origins... Even if Norrath and Everquest itself was originally thought up as a result of a D&D compain..</blockquote>exactly, just like the quest from the little goblin like creature in Hidden Cashe isn't a sign that the game is baised or has roots in tolken lore.

Meirril

04-03-2010, 04:54 AM

<cite>Jaranna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Apologies for the necro, but let it never be said the PoJaranna can't admit a mistake.I was reading up on NPC factions in my EQRPG DMG, and I came across these:Naythox Thex (The Dark Elf King)Alignment: OELocation: NeriakDescription: The dark elf king is one of two would-be rulers of the Teir'Dal. Despite the small fact that he is not of the royal bloodline, he crowned himself king, adopted the name of the dynasty that came before him and gathered supporters for his cause. The self-styled king and his followers seek to weaken the so-called Queen's claims on the throne.Leader: Naythox ThexAllies: The SpurnedEnemies: Queen Cristianos Thex, the DeadCristianos Thex (The Dark Elf Queen of Neriak)Alignment: OELocation: Neriak, AntonicaDescription: The dark elf Queen is one of two contenders for the throne. Despite the fact that she is not a true member of the royal bloodline, she adopted the name of the former dynasty and managed to gain the support of many in Neriak. She and her allies strive to manipulate and connive their way into greater power and authority.Leader: Cristianos ThexAllies: The DeadEnemies: The Spurned, King Naythox ThexSo, I'm not sure where I saw that the king and queen in Live were the originals. Perhaps it was my overactive imagination that filled in the blanks. Perhaps I'll rip off the idea for my own D&D campaign. Now, the question remains: How did Cristanos become a goa'uld?</blockquote>Technically, the EQRPG has nothing to do with any of the games. While it is based off of information that the book's developers received from the EQ staff (back when there was only EQ and EQ2 was still in development) it is in no way to be taken as part of either game's lore.