Avoidance FAQ

[circusgirl]

<p>There have been a ton of questions about avoidance recently, and I was lucky enough to pick Timetravelling's brain about them.  Credit goes to him and the monk community at large for most of this information, with special thanks to Blanka, Couching, and Steelbadger.  </p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Contested vs. Uncontested Avoidance</span></p><p>Contested avoidance is anything which checks your avoidance against a mob's weapon skill.  If something is contested avoidance, then you will receive less avoidance than the stated value if fighting a mob higher level than you.  Because of this, contested avoidance is very useful against solo and heroic content, but not very useful against raid level mobs 5-8 levels above you.  </p><p>Uncontested avoidance is avoidance which is given regardless of the mob's weapon skill.  Because raid mobs are so much higher level than players and as a result have very high weapon skills, uncontested avoidance is what matters for most raid tanks.  Typically this takes the form of a flat % chance to avoid an incoming blow.  Examples of this are abilities like tsunami "Caster will riposte 100% of incoming frontal attacks, attacks from other quadrants will be parried", Bob & Weave, etc.  +minimum block chance is a flat % chance to block an attack, i.e., an item with +5 minimum block chance means you will block 5% of incoming attacks.</p><p><span><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Avoidance Skills</span></span></p><p>Defense: reads as "Base" avoidance if you hover your mouse above your avoidance in the persona menu, and is increased by items that have +defense on them, as well as by increasing your agility.  For plate tanks, this avoidance only works against mobs that are hitting you from the front quadrant.  For brawlers, base defense is 360 degrees.  Other miscellaneous avoidance stats also display under the umbrella of "base" avoidance, the most notable of which is +riposte chance and temp buffs such as tsunami.  Because defense includes multiple avoidance checks, it can be raised above the standard cap of 70%.</p><p>Parry: reads as parry in the avoidance tooltip, increased by items with +parry on them.  Caps at 70%.  For plate tanks, works in the front quadrant only, for brawlers this is 360 degrees.  A small % of parries will be ripostes, which not only avoid the attack but also damage your attacker.  You may only riposte things in the front quadrant.  Riposte is based off of parry: a certain % of parries turn into ripostes.</p><ul><li>items with +parry increase your contested avoidance</li><li>items with "additional riposte chance" increase your chance of turning a succesful parry into a riposte.  <strong>This stat does not increase your avoidance at all.</strong></li><li>items with "+ extra riposte chance" give uncontested avoidance: a straight chance to riposte/parry an incoming attack</li><li>items with "riposte damage" increase the damage you do on a successful riposte.  This stat does not increase your avoidance.</li></ul><p>Block: reads as block in the avoidance tooltip.  For plate tanks, this value is <strong>uncontested </strong>and based off of the protection value on your shield, as given by the following equation (thanks to Steelbadger for this):</p><p><img src="http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/8403/blockg.jpg" width="725" height="29" /></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">Note: block chance is a percent, so to enter it properly into these equations you must divide the value in your persona window by 100</span></p><p>Block for plate tanks is frontal quadrant only, and caps at 70%.  Block works very differently for brawlers.  <strong>Block is not uncontested for brawlers, with the exception of minimum block chance</strong>.  Uncontested block for brawlers is calculated with the following formula:</p><p><span style="font-size: large;">Block= Minimum block chance * (1+block chance)</span></p><p>For brawlers, block is a skill that works essentially exactly like parry and defense:  it is 360 degrees, and caps at 70%.  There are several skills that increase your chances of blocking:</p><ul><li>+deflection: this skill only works for brawlers, and does nothing for plate tanks.  It increases your chance to block in the same way that +parry and +defense increase your chances of dodging and parrying.</li><li>+minimum block chance: This stat is seen in three forms:  the first is a blue stat called minimum block chance (seen only on monk mythical as far as I know), the second is on brawler balanced stances, defensive stances, and enervated mythical buff and is worded as follows: "Caster will deflect X% of incoming attacks," and the third is via the aversion AA in the TSO brawler AA line.  The three add up and are a flat % chance to block an incoming attack, regardless of the attacker's level--<strong>This is the source of a brawler's uncontested avoidance.</strong></li><li>Protection: This stat is available on shields, and determines a plate tanks "base" block, which can then be modified by block chance.  To see how much block a protection value translates into, use the above formula for plate avoidance and just enter 0 for block chance.</li><li>+block chance:  For plate tanks, this skill modifies the effectiveness of a plate tank's shield (works <strong>exactly</strong> the same as the stat +shield effectiveness used to).  For brawlers, this stat is a multiplier of both their block chance and their minimum block chance.  For example:  If you have 50% block and you have +15 block chance on your equipment, your block value is now 50 * 1.15 = 57.5%.  If you have 27% minimum block chance and have +15 block chance, your new minimum block chance would be 27*1.15= 31.05%  +block chance is a very important stat for raiding brawlers since it modifies our uncontested avoidance.  Block chance does not technically have a cap, but it can only raise your avoidance (both contested and uncontested) to 70%.  For a brawler with mastered defensive stance, 5 points in aversion, and their myth, the point at which we no longer receive a benefit from it is at +159 block chance.  Plate tanks will benefit from block chance until the block that displays in the avoidance tooltip hits 70%.</li></ul><div></div><div><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Strikethrough</span></div><div>Strikethrough is an ability that give you (or the mob you're fighting!) a chance to hit through an avoidance check.  Even if your avoidance check succeeds, you can still be hit by a mob's strikethrough.  Mobs can strikethrough both contested AND uncontested avoidance.  The only way to prevent a mob striking through your avoidance is with the immunity to strikethrough that currently exists on the monk and bruiser defensive stances.  Once a mob has struck through an avoidance roll you're hit and that's that.</div><div></div><div><span style="text-decoration: underline;">How multiple avoidance checks work</span></div><div>It is worth noting that your avoidance numbers are not additive across different checks.  If you have 4.4% uncontested parry (from infusions/reduction food, for example) and 31% minimum block, your uncontested avoidance is <strong>not</strong> 35.4%.  Avoidance checks are carried out in the following order:</div><div></div><div><ol><li>Parry/Riposte</li><li>Block</li><li>Base</li></ol><div>What this means is that only your parry will actually give the amount of contested avoidance stated, and that other checks will give you slightly lower returns since they will not have a chance to avoid 100% of incoming attacks.  For example, if you had a character with 10% parry, 40% block, and 10% base avoidance, your avoidance would look like this:</div></div><div></div><div>10% of attacks are parried/riposted</div><div></div><div>90% of attacks have a chance to be blocked.  .4*90=36, so 36% of attacks are blocked</div><div></div><div>54% of attacks have a chance to be dodged.  .1*54= 5.4% of attacks dodged</div><div></div><div>So your net avoidance is not 10+40+10=60%, but 10+36+5.4=51.4%  Please note that the above example is ignoring the contested nature of most avoidance and strikethroughs.</div><div></div><div><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Parsing Avoidance</span></div><div>If you are interested in seeing how many attacks you are actually avoiding, this information can easily be parsed on ACT.  Right click on your name in the left-hand menu of ACT for a specific fight and select the option "avoidance report."  This will pull up a pop-up window saying what % of your avoids are in each category, including blocks, parries, ripostes, and misses, and will also tell you how many attacks were absorbed by stoneskins.  It will also report things that others have avoided for you (via Shield Ally, Fighter avoidance buffs, or bard avoidance buffs for example).  Bear in mind though that because of the order in which avoidance checks are calculated, these reports will give you much higher values for things that are calculated first than you'll get for things that are calculated later.  This does not mean that those stats are more valuable.</div><div></div><div></div><div>Please post any questions you have regarding avoidance, point out anything you think is a flaw, or list any information you think needs to be added!</div><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>

[Couching]

<p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>There have been a ton of questions about avoidance recently, and I was lucky enough to pick Timetravelling's brain about them.  With his permission, here's the basic overview of how things currently stand.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Contested vs. Uncontested Avoidance</span></p><p>Contested avoidance is anything which checks your avoidance against a mob's level.  If something is contested avoidance, then you will receive less avoidance than the stated value if fighting a mob higher level than you.  Because of this, contested avoidance is very useful against solo and heroic content, but not very useful against raid level mobs 5-8 levels above you. </p><p>Uncontested avoidance is avoidance which is guaranteed, regardless of the mob's level.  Typically this takes the form of a flat % chance to avoid an incoming blow.  Examples of this are abilities like tsunami "Caster will riposte 100% of incoming frontal attacks, attacks from other quadrants will be parried", Bob & Weave, etc.  +minimum block chance is a flat % chance to block an attack, i.e., an item with +5 minimum block chance means you will block 5% of incoming attacks, regardless of the mob's level.</p></blockquote><p>Incorrect. Both contested and uncontested avoidance check against mob's level. But contested avoidance also checks against your attacker's weapon skill.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p>Fixed, thank you!</p>

[rv5580]

<p>Ok so some of the new shields i am seeing for tanks has like +25% Block Chance. Would this be uncontested or contested?</p>

[rv5580]

<p>NM I somehow skimmed over the part were you said it was uncontested already. My mistake</p>

[Rasttan]

<p>Now they need to list minimum block on brawlers since we have no clue what is and isnt effecting it as it stands we know 22% from stance plus I guess anything else we have with minimum block chance. My problem with this is we had worse uncontested avoidance than plate tanks last expansion which was a total screw job on the so called avoidance tanks. From what ive seen so far we again will have the lowest uncontested avoidance unless + block % items applies somewhat to a brawlers minimum block chance. But who the hell knows since we cant see the number. They say it applies but I'd really like to see the numbers and know what applies.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p><cite>Rasttan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Now they need to list minimum block on brawlers since we have no clue what is and isnt effecting it as it stands we know 22% from stance plus I guess anything else we have with minimum block chance. My problem with this is we had worse uncontested avoidance than plate tanks last expansion which was a total screw job on the so called avoidance tanks. From what ive seen so far we again will have the lowest uncontested avoidance unless + block % items applies somewhat to a brawlers minimum block chance. But who the hell knows since we cant see the number. They say it applies but I'd really like to see the numbers and know what applies.</p></blockquote><p>Your minimum block is as follows, Rasttan:</p><p>22% minimum block from mastered crouching tiger with 5 points in Aversion</p><p>5% minimum block from enervated mythical</p><p>=27% minimum block chance</p><p>This value is modified by your +block chance skill.  So, for example, if I have 69.3% block chance, then to find my minimum block I multiply 27 by 1.693 =45.7% minimum block chance.</p><p>I do, however, agree that they need to bring back the display tooltip for minimum block chance, and that its very weird that block for plate tanks is uncontested.</p>

[auyd]

<p>Sorry to ask a basic question but I have a little confusion from your statement of "base" amount only being defence. Dosen't the "base" include the bounus from agility? Is all of the base contested?</p><p>Auyd</p>

[circusgirl]

<p>Base is fully contested and is improved by +agility, though the amount agi  improves it by is fairly small.</p>

[steelbadger]

<p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I do, however, agree that they need to bring back the display tooltip for minimum block chance, and that its very weird that block for plate tanks is uncontested.</p></blockquote><p>Weird?</p><p>It's always been uncontested and if it wasn't uncontested I'd have pretty much zero self buffed avoidance against raid mobs and would be completely reliant on stoneskins and other people's parry buffs for operable avoidance.</p><p>And that would not be good.</p>

[Chanson]

<p><cite>Rasttan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>From what ive seen so far we again will have the lowest uncontested avoidance unless + block % items applies somewhat to a brawlers minimum block chance. But who the hell knows since we cant see the number. They say it applies but I'd really like to see the numbers and know what applies.</p></blockquote><p>I wouldn't mind having a lower uncontested avoidance since brawlers have it 360 degrees and not just in the front, IF we had mitigation close to what plate tanks had. Since we have such lower mitigation, why isn't our uncontested avoidance just as high AND still 360 degrees? We should have equal uncontested avoidance, and ours should be to all directions due to our lower mitigation.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p>Updated to include an explanation of how multiple avoidance checks work together.  If anyone knows any additional information that ought to be included here, please point it out to me!</p><p>Also, does anyone know how strikethrough interacts with avoidance checks?  For example: if I roll a successful parry check, but the mob rolls a strikethrough to hit me despite my parry, do I still have a chance to block or dodge, or is it a guaranteed hit for the mob?</p>

[Silzin]

<p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><div><ol><li>Parry/Riposte</li><li>Block</li><li>Base</li></ol><div>What ...</div></div><div></div><div><strong>Because of the way the math on this works out, you will receive greater returns for adding to whichever avoidance stat is the highest.  Typically, this means that <span style="text-decoration: underline;">block is better than parry</span>, and that parry is better than defense.</strong></div><div>...</div></blockquote><p>Shouldnt this be +parry is better then +Block and +Block is better then +Defense?</p>

[Ambrin]

<p><cite>Silzin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><div><ol><li>Parry/Riposte</li><li>Block</li><li>Base</li></ol><div>What ...</div></div><div></div><div><strong>Because of the way the math on this works out, you will receive greater returns for adding to whichever avoidance stat is the highest.  Typically, this means that <span style="text-decoration: underline;">block is better than parry</span>, and that parry is better than defense.</strong></div><div>...</div></blockquote><p>Shouldnt this be +parry is better then +Block and +Block is better then +Defense?</p></blockquote><p>If you do the math you can show that increasing your largest pool gives you the biggest return.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p><cite>Silzin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><div><ol><li>Parry/Riposte</li><li>Block</li><li>Base</li></ol><div>What ...</div></div><div></div><div><strong>Because of the way the math on this works out, you will receive greater returns for adding to whichever avoidance stat is the highest.  Typically, this means that <span style="text-decoration: underline;">block is better than parry</span>, and that parry is better than defense.</strong></div><div>...</div></blockquote><p>Shouldnt this be +parry is better then +Block and +Block is better then +Defense?</p></blockquote><p>No actually.  While the order is parry--block-->base, you receive the most benefit from adding to whichever stat is highest.</p><p>So, for example, say you have 40% block, 20% parry, and 10% defense.</p><p>Your actual avoidance is as follows:</p><p>20% of incoming blows are parried.</p><p>.4*80%= 32% of incoming blows are blocked</p><p>.1*48%= 4.8% of incoming blows are dodged</p><p>Total avoidance: 56.8%</p><p>Now say you are trying to decide which stat to add to.  Look at what happens if you were to add 10% to parry, vs. 10% to block, vs. 10% to dodge:</p><p>If you add 10% to your parry, your avoidance becomes:</p><p>30% incoming blows parried</p><p>.4*70%= 28% of incoming blows blocked</p><p>.1*42%=4.2% of incoming blows are dodged</p><p>Total avoidance: 62.2% (5.4% gain)</p><p>If you add 10% to your block, this becomes</p><p>20% of incoming blows parried</p><p>.5*80= 40% of incoming blows blocked</p><p>.1*40%= 4% of incoming blows dodged</p><p>Total avoidance: 64% (7.2% gain)  <span style="color: #00ff00;"><---winner</span></p><p>If you add 10% do your defense, this becomes:</p><p>20% of incoming blows parried</p><p>.4*80%= 32% of incoming blows are blocked</p><p>.2*48%=9.6% of incoming blows dodged</p><p>Total avoidance: 61.6% (4.8% gain)</p><p>What that order (parry-->block-->dodge) means is that if you check your avoidance report on ACT, it will make it look like parry is more important than it actually is.  In reality, you gain the most benefit from increasing whichever stat is the highest.  In most cases, this is block.</p>

[Silzin]

Ok, thank you very much and it makes much more sense.

[circusgirl]

<p>*Updated to include a better description of various riposte stats based on info from Xelgad in the itemization forum: <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=15&topic_id=473618">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=473618</a></p>

[Rotate]

<p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rasttan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Now they need to list minimum block on brawlers since we have no clue what is and isnt effecting it as it stands we know 22% from stance plus I guess anything else we have with minimum block chance. My problem with this is we had worse uncontested avoidance than plate tanks last expansion which was a total screw job on the so called avoidance tanks. From what ive seen so far we again will have the lowest uncontested avoidance unless + block % items applies somewhat to a brawlers minimum block chance. But who the hell knows since we cant see the number. They say it applies but I'd really like to see the numbers and know what applies.</p></blockquote><p>Your minimum block is as follows, Rasttan:</p><p>22% minimum block from mastered crouching tiger with 5 points in Aversion</p><p>5% minimum block from enervated mythical</p><p>=27% minimum block chance</p><p>This value is modified by your +block chance skill.  So, for example, if I have 69.3% block chance, then to find my minimum block I multiply 27 by 1.693 =45.7% minimum block chance.</p><p>I do, however, agree that they need to bring back the display tooltip for minimum block chance, and that its very weird that block for plate tanks is uncontested.</p></blockquote><p>so i am caping at 70% block chance atm... without anashti;s will procing...   is it not even worth wearing the ring anymore? or can it still rase my uncontested higher? or is like 46% uncontested max i can get??</p>

[Ambrin]

<p>You need 160% block chance to cap your uncontested block so there will be some gains in avoidance up until this point, but they wont be that large. If you can get your persona window to list at 70% contested block, and if you can raise your deflection skill high enough (around 630) than your contested block should (theoretically) be very effective, making your uncontested block count for very little as it won't get through your contested check. You would however need to fill a good portion of your gear slots with items that have ~10 deflection skill each on them to get to that point, so you may end up sacrificing other stats to do so.</p><p>I apologize if my post isn't very clear, I'm pretty tired at the moment and I am making a few assumptions in it that I believe are correct (but am not 100% sure on).</p>

[circusgirl]

<p><cite>Rotate@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rasttan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Now they need to list minimum block on brawlers since we have no clue what is and isnt effecting it as it stands we know 22% from stance plus I guess anything else we have with minimum block chance. My problem with this is we had worse uncontested avoidance than plate tanks last expansion which was a total screw job on the so called avoidance tanks. From what ive seen so far we again will have the lowest uncontested avoidance unless + block % items applies somewhat to a brawlers minimum block chance. But who the hell knows since we cant see the number. They say it applies but I'd really like to see the numbers and know what applies.</p></blockquote><p>Your minimum block is as follows, Rasttan:</p><p>22% minimum block from mastered crouching tiger with 5 points in Aversion</p><p>5% minimum block from enervated mythical</p><p>=27% minimum block chance</p><p>This value is modified by your +block chance skill.  So, for example, if I have 69.3% block chance, then to find my minimum block I multiply 27 by 1.693 =45.7% minimum block chance.</p><p>I do, however, agree that they need to bring back the display tooltip for minimum block chance, and that its very weird that block for plate tanks is uncontested.</p></blockquote><p>so i am caping at 70% block chance atm... without anashti;s will procing...   is it not even worth wearing the ring anymore? or can it still rase my uncontested higher? or is like 46% uncontested max i can get??</p></blockquote><p>Even if your contested block is capped, your uncontested can still be raised.  I assume that the uncontested deflection cap is 70% as well (though this has not been confirmed, so take it with a grain of salt).  If that is the case, then for a monk with aversion, mastered defensive stance, and their mythical, the +block chance cap would be 159%  (27% *2.59=70%).  Of course, there could be an arbitrary cap at 100% block chance.  Basically, right now its highly unlikely that you're capping your uncontested block.  Your contested block, however, is extremely easy to cap.</p><p>Whether it is worth going beyond the contested cap or not depends on what you're fighting.  If you're only fighting level 90 opponents, then your contested block should theoretically be giving you its full value of 70% avoidance.  Because your regular block is higher than your uncontested block, your uncontested block in that example essentially does nothing and is not worth raising.  However, even if you're not raiding and are just grouping in instances, chances are you're fighting mobs that are at least yellow con, and its extremely unlikely that your contested block isn't lower than 70% as a result.  My advice would be to keep trying to raise it higher.  </p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rotate@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rasttan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Now they need to list minimum block on brawlers since we have no clue what is and isnt effecting it as it stands we know 22% from stance plus I guess anything else we have with minimum block chance. My problem with this is we had worse uncontested avoidance than plate tanks last expansion which was a total screw job on the so called avoidance tanks. From what ive seen so far we again will have the lowest uncontested avoidance unless + block % items applies somewhat to a brawlers minimum block chance. But who the hell knows since we cant see the number. They say it applies but I'd really like to see the numbers and know what applies.</p></blockquote><p>Your minimum block is as follows, Rasttan:</p><p>22% minimum block from mastered crouching tiger with 5 points in Aversion</p><p>5% minimum block from enervated mythical</p><p>=27% minimum block chance</p><p>This value is modified by your +block chance skill.  So, for example, if I have 69.3% block chance, then to find my minimum block I multiply 27 by 1.693 =45.7% minimum block chance.</p><p>I do, however, agree that they need to bring back the display tooltip for minimum block chance, and that its very weird that block for plate tanks is uncontested.</p></blockquote><p>so i am caping at 70% block chance atm... without anashti;s will procing...   is it not even worth wearing the ring anymore? or can it still rase my uncontested higher? or is like 46% uncontested max i can get??</p></blockquote><p>Even if your contested block is capped, your uncontested can still be raised.  I assume that the uncontested deflection cap is 70% as well (though this has not been confirmed, so take it with a grain of salt).  If that is the case, then for a monk with aversion, mastered defensive stance, and their mythical, the +block chance cap would be 159%  (27% *2.59=70%).  Of course, there could be an arbitrary cap at 100% block chance.  Basically, right now its highly unlikely that you're capping your uncontested block.  Your contested block, however, is extremely easy to cap.</p><p>Whether it is worth going beyond the contested cap or not depends on what you're fighting.  If you're only fighting level 90 opponents, then your contested block should theoretically be giving you its full value of 70% avoidance.  Because your regular block is higher than your uncontested block, your uncontested block in that example essentially does nothing and is not worth raising.  However, even if you're not raiding and are just grouping in instances, chances are you're fighting mobs that are at least yellow con, and its extremely unlikely that your contested block isn't lower than 70% as a result.  My advice would be to keep trying to raise it higher.  </p></blockquote><p>Wrong the cap is 70%.</p>

[Gungo]

<p>I am not exactly sure what you are claiming is wrong in Vinka's post.</p><p>Both uncontested and contested block is capped at 70%. I dont think vinka claimed otherwise. It is essentially 1 avoidance roll and whichever is higher is used. The good (or bad thing) is contested avoidance is HEAVILY reduced vs high con, epic/heroic content. Which makes uncontested rolls extremely important unless you are fighting even con or lower solo mobs.</p><p>I havent done alot of testing to prove eitherway but I suspect block like every other avoidance is also on a curve. So 159% block chance may not cap mnimum block and even if it did that is only vs a lvl 90 solo con npc. Uncontested avoidance is still slightly reduced by an NPC's level.  </p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am not exactly sure what you are claiming is wrong in Vinka's post.</p><p>Both uncontested and contested block is capped at 70%. I dont think vinka claimed otherwise. It is essentially 1 avoidance roll and whichever is higher is used. The good (or bad thing) is contested avoidance is HEAVILY reduced vs high con, epic/heroic content. Which makes uncontested rolls extremely important unless you are fighting even con or lower solo mobs.</p><p>I havent done alot of testing to prove eitherway but I suspect block like every other avoidance is also on a curve. So 159% block chance may not cap mnimum block and even if it did that is only vs a lvl 90 solo con npc. Uncontested avoidance is still slightly reduced by an NPC's level.  </p></blockquote><p>Monk Bob and Weave increases shield mod by 100% effectively capping any monk in a defensive build in both uncontested and contested block with it running and there is no increase in the amount of blocks a monk will do.  If over compensating stats in this way worked the way you both are claiming monks wouldn't get hit so much with bob and weave up however as any monk can tell you monk bob and weave gets hit through at a huge rate despite on UI looking like we are at a 95% avoidance rate.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p>You have to bear in mind when talking about Bob & Weave that any data prior to the expansion (or when in offensive or balanced stance) is tainted by strikethroughs.  I have not noticed a single hit through bob & weave since the expansion came out.  Don't get me wrong--I'm sure I have been hit and just didn't notice, but it certainly doesn't happen very frequently.  With Bob & Weave up you should net 50% parry, 35% block (.7 *50), and 7.5% dodge (.5*15)=92.5% avoidance.  You should therefore get hit about once every 13.3 swings.  Personally, I don't think that recent data contradicts those numbers.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You have to bear in mind when talking about Bob & Weave that any data prior to the expansion (or when in offensive or balanced stance) is tainted by strikethroughs.  I have not noticed a single hit through bob & weave since the expansion came out.  Don't get me wrong--I'm sure I have been hit and just didn't notice, but it certainly doesn't happen very frequently.  With Bob & Weave up you should net 50% parry, 35% block (.7 *50), and 7.5% dodge (.5*15)=92.5% avoidance.  You should therefore get hit about once every 13.3 swings.  Personally, I don't think that recent data contradicts those numbers.</p></blockquote><p>LOL, which is it?  You say going over caps counts now you are saying you get 92.5% avoid from Bob and Weave yet you fail to take into account it stacks with your existing buffs.  So if in fact it is getting your hit 1 out of every 13 hits you are just proving exactly what I stated previously that going OVER caps does nothing since that is EXACTLY what I pointed out.</p><p>Also Base avoid doesn't cap at 70% anymore.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Rotate@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>so i am caping at 70% block chance atm... without anashti;s will procing...   is it not even worth wearing the ring anymore? or can it still rase my uncontested higher? or is like 46% uncontested max i can get??</p></blockquote><p>Anashti's ring doesn't even proc 25% anymore it procs like 10% its still pretty good but if you were wearing it strictly for the block chance proc there are much better rings.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You have to bear in mind when talking about Bob & Weave that any data prior to the expansion (or when in offensive or balanced stance) is tainted by strikethroughs.  I have not noticed a single hit through bob & weave since the expansion came out.  Don't get me wrong--I'm sure I have been hit and just didn't notice, but it certainly doesn't happen very frequently.  With Bob & Weave up you should net 50% parry, 35% block (.7 *50), and 7.5% dodge (.5*15)=92.5% avoidance.  You should therefore get hit about once every 13.3 swings.  Personally, I don't think that recent data contradicts those numbers.</p></blockquote><p>LOL, which is it?  You say going over caps counts now you are saying you get 92.5% avoid from Bob and Weave yet you fail to take into account it stacks with your existing buffs.  So if in fact it is getting your hit 1 out of every 13 hits you are just proving exactly what I stated previously that going OVER caps does nothing since that is EXACTLY what I pointed out.</p><p>Also Base avoid doesn't cap at 70% anymore.</p></blockquote><p>I'm really not sure what it is you're arguing with me about.  Contested block caps at 70%.  Uncontested block I assume caps at 70%, though this hasn't been confirmed by devs as far as I know.  Where am I talking about going over caps?  Unless you misread my earlier post, and took that comment at the end about "keep trying to raise it higher" as relating to contested block instead of minimum block/block chance <em>which is what I was referring to</em>, I'm really not sure where you got that impression.</p><p>In regards to Bob & Weave, that calculation was only taking into account uncontested avoidance, with the assumption that uncontested block caps at 70%.  What other buffs would you like me to take into account?</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Avoidance Skills</span></span></p><p>Defense: reads as "Base" avoidance if you hover your mouse above your avoidance in the persona menu, and is increased by items that have +defense on them, as well as by increasing your agility.  <strong>Defense caps at 70%.</strong>  For plate tanks, this avoidance only works against mobs that are hitting you from the front quadrant.  For brawlers, base defense is 360 degrees.  </p></blockquote><p><img src="http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o176/mallent/70base.jpg" /></p>

[Chanson]

<p>Perhaps BCHizzle is referring to the post that includes "<span >the +block chance cap would be 159%  (27% *2.59=70%)." </span></p><p><span >You questioned yourself on that number stating that there might be an arbitrary cap of 100%, perhaps he's claiming the +block chance cap is +70%?</span></p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You have to bear in mind when talking about Bob & Weave that any data prior to the expansion (or when in offensive or balanced stance) is tainted by strikethroughs.  I have not noticed a single hit through bob & weave since the expansion came out.  Don't get me wrong--I'm sure I have been hit and just didn't notice, but it certainly doesn't happen very frequently.  With Bob & Weave up you should net 50% parry, 35% block (.7 *50), and 7.5% dodge (.5*15)=92.5% avoidance.  You should therefore get hit about once every 13.3 swings.  Personally, I don't think that recent data contradicts those numbers.</p></blockquote><p>LOL, which is it?  You say going over caps counts now you are saying you get 92.5% avoid from Bob and Weave yet you fail to take into account it stacks with your existing buffs.  So if in fact it is getting your hit 1 out of every 13 hits you are just proving exactly what I stated previously that going OVER caps does nothing since that is EXACTLY what I pointed out.</p><p>Also Base avoid doesn't cap at 70% anymore.</p></blockquote><p>I'm really not sure what it is you're arguing with me about.  Contested block caps at 70%.  Uncontested block I assume caps at 70%, though this hasn't been confirmed by devs as far as I know.  Where am I talking about going over caps?  Unless you misread my earlier post, and took that comment at the end about "keep trying to raise it higher" as relating to contested block instead of minimum block/block chance <em>which is what I was referring to</em>, I'm really not sure where you got that impression.</p><p>In regards to Bob & Weave, that calculation was only taking into account uncontested avoidance, with the assumption that uncontested block caps at 70%.  What other buffs would you like me to take into account?</p></blockquote><p>I am arguing that taking contested block beyond the cap is useless. </p><p>Get it?  It doesn't do anything, I used BOB AND WEAVE for an example because by using it in theory should shoot up the deflection portion of block by 100%. </p><p>Try this exercise, take off your defensive stance and your mythical (so you have no uncontested block) and load up on deflection gear and notice block will display 40%-50% (or even posisbly higher there is enough deflection gear out there) anyways pop bob and weave in theory taking your deflection (block) to 400%-500% right?  Now we don't know how exactly hit % and level increase work exactly down to the #'s but I think its a fair assumption if we actually had 400%-500% Block even uncontested that it might be you know enough to offset a lvl 98 mob right?  It should result in a 70% chance of all block checks being returned block right?  It won't.</p><p>And don't use strikethrough as a comeback because any block that is struckthrough can be counted as a successful block and you still won't see a 70% block rate in no stance with no myth.</p><p>Another easy way to check this is using mentoring.</p><p>Load up on level 70 and below deflection gear like as much as u possibly can so that you get to the 70% cap and over it even at level 80.  So with all the deflection you are going to block 70% of an even con mob right?  Now mentor to 70 your total deflection (contested block) should be exactly the same now fight that lvl 80 same mob you should block the same amount right? Share your results with everyone.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You have to bear in mind when talking about Bob & Weave that any data prior to the expansion (or when in offensive or balanced stance) is tainted by strikethroughs.  I have not noticed a single hit through bob & weave since the expansion came out.  Don't get me wrong--I'm sure I have been hit and just didn't notice, but it certainly doesn't happen very frequently.  With Bob & Weave up you should net 50% parry, 35% block (.7 *50), and 7.5% dodge (.5*15)=92.5% avoidance.  You should therefore get hit about once every 13.3 swings.  Personally, I don't think that recent data contradicts those numbers.</p></blockquote><p>LOL, which is it?  You say going over caps counts now you are saying you get 92.5% avoid from Bob and Weave yet you fail to take into account it stacks with your existing buffs.  So if in fact it is getting your hit 1 out of every 13 hits you are just proving exactly what I stated previously that going OVER caps does nothing since that is EXACTLY what I pointed out.</p><p>Also Base avoid doesn't cap at 70% anymore.</p></blockquote><p>I'm really not sure what it is you're arguing with me about.  Contested block caps at 70%.  Uncontested block I assume caps at 70%, though this hasn't been confirmed by devs as far as I know.  Where am I talking about going over caps?  Unless you misread my earlier post, and took that comment at the end about "keep trying to raise it higher" as relating to contested block instead of minimum block/block chance <em>which is what I was referring to</em>, I'm really not sure where you got that impression.</p><p>In regards to Bob & Weave, that calculation was only taking into account uncontested avoidance, with the assumption that uncontested block caps at 70%.  What other buffs would you like me to take into account?</p></blockquote><p>I am arguing that taking contested block beyond the cap is useless. </p><p>Get it?  It doesn't do anything, I used BOB AND WEAVE for an example because by using it in theory should shoot up the deflection portion of block by 100%. </p><p>Try this exercise, take off your defensive stance and your mythical (so you have no uncontested block) and load up on deflection gear and notice block will display 40%-50% (or even posisbly higher there is enough deflection gear out there) anyways pop bob and weave in theory taking your deflection (block) to 400%-500% right?  Now we don't know how exactly hit % and level increase work exactly down to the #'s but I think its a fair assumption if we actually had 400%-500% Block even uncontested that it might be you know enough to offset a lvl 98 mob right?  It should result in a 70% chance of all block checks being returned block right?  It won't.</p><p>And don't use strikethrough as a comeback because any block that is struckthrough can be counted as a successful block and you still won't see a 70% block rate in no stance with no myth.</p><p>Another easy way to check this is using mentoring.</p><p>Load up on level 70 and below deflection gear like as much as u possibly can so that you get to the 70% cap and over it even at level 80.  So with all the deflection you are going to block 70% of an even con mob right?  Now mentor to 70 your total deflection (contested block) should be exactly the same now fight that lvl 80 same mob you should block the same amount right? Share your results with everyone.</p></blockquote><p>Okay, there's a lot of problems with this paragraph.  First off, I agree that taking contested block above the cap is useless.  Yup, I agree with you.  Never disagreed.  Not sure why you keep thinking I do.  Would it be nice if it could be overcapped like crit can?  Yeah, that would be awesome.  Unfortunately, I have no evidence to suggest that that is the case.  So...not gonna argue that point, because <strong>we happen to be in agreement</strong>.</p><p>Second of all, your example with Bob & Weave makes no sense.  You started out with 50% block in your example, then added on 100% block chance.  100% of 50 is 50.  You would in this example have 50+50= 100% contested block, not 400-500%.  You would need +1000 block chance to hit 500% contested avoidance, and since its capped at 70%, it wouldn't matter if you did.  Of course, because block is capped at 70%, you don't actually get 100% contested block against an even-conned opponent, you get 70%.  If you were level 70, then you could have only 70% avoidance against a level 70 mob, and fighting a level 80 mob will give you less than 70% avoidance, which suggests very strongly that avoidance cannot be overcapped.  Oh, hey look,<strong> both of us agree and are correct!  </strong></p>

[circusgirl]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Avoidance Skills</span></span></p><p>Defense: reads as "Base" avoidance if you hover your mouse above your avoidance in the persona menu, and is increased by items that have +defense on them, as well as by increasing your agility.  <strong>Defense caps at 70%.</strong>  For plate tanks, this avoidance only works against mobs that are hitting you from the front quadrant.  For brawlers, base defense is 360 degrees.  </p></blockquote><p><img src="http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o176/mallent/70base.jpg" /></p></blockquote><p>Fixed.  Anyone know what the base avoidance cap is?</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Avoidance Skills</span></span></p><p>Defense: reads as "Base" avoidance if you hover your mouse above your avoidance in the persona menu, and is increased by items that have +defense on them, as well as by increasing your agility.  <strong>Defense caps at 70%.</strong>  For plate tanks, this avoidance only works against mobs that are hitting you from the front quadrant.  For brawlers, base defense is 360 degrees.  </p></blockquote><p><img src="http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o176/mallent/70base.jpg" /></p></blockquote><p>Fixed.  Anyone know what the base avoidance cap is?</p></blockquote><p>100%</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Second of all, your example with Bob & Weave makes no sense.  You started out with 50% block in your example, then added on 100% block chance.  100% of 50 is 50.  You would in this example have 50+50= 100% contested block, not 400-500%.  You would need +1000 block chance to hit 500% contested avoidance, and since its capped at 70%, it wouldn't matter if you did.  Of course, because block is capped at 70%, you don't actually get 100% contested block against an even-conned opponent, you get 70%.  If you were level 70, then you could have only 70% avoidance against a level 70 mob, and fighting a level 80 mob will give you less than 70% avoidance, which suggests very strongly that avoidance cannot be overcapped.  Oh, hey look,<strong> both of us agree and are correct!  </strong></p></blockquote><p>You are right about the 100% thing I actually changed my numbers mid post and forgot to adjust correctly.  The point is you can have 70% contested block as a level 80 with level 70 gear on vs a lvl 80 mob then mentor down and in theory your actual deflection wouldn't change and you wouldn't block 70% against that same lvl 80 mob proving that going over the block cap doesn't help.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Second of all, your example with Bob & Weave makes no sense.  You started out with 50% block in your example, then added on 100% block chance.  100% of 50 is 50.  You would in this example have 50+50= 100% contested block, not 400-500%.  You would need +1000 block chance to hit 500% contested avoidance, and since its capped at 70%, it wouldn't matter if you did.  Of course, because block is capped at 70%, you don't actually get 100% contested block against an even-conned opponent, you get 70%.  If you were level 70, then you could have only 70% avoidance against a level 70 mob, and fighting a level 80 mob will give you less than 70% avoidance, which suggests very strongly that avoidance cannot be overcapped.  Oh, hey look,<strong> both of us agree and are correct!  </strong></p></blockquote><p>You are right about the 100% thing I actually changed my numbers mid post and forgot to adjust correctly.  The point is you can have 70% contested block as a level 80 with level 70 gear on vs a lvl 80 mob then mentor down and in theory your actual deflection wouldn't change and you wouldn't block 70% against that same lvl 80 mob proving that going over the block cap doesn't help.</p></blockquote><p>That's a fantastic way to test if things can be overcapped.  I think that clears up that particular question, so I've erased it from my list of things to find out.  By the way, have you ever managed to pump your base avoidance up to 100% to test if thats really the cap?</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Silzin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><div><ol><li>Parry/Riposte</li><li>Block</li><li>Base</li></ol><div>What ...</div></div><div></div><div><strong>Because of the way the math on this works out, you will receive greater returns for adding to whichever avoidance stat is the highest.  Typically, this means that <span style="text-decoration: underline;">block is better than parry</span>, and that parry is better than defense.</strong></div><div>...</div></blockquote><p>Shouldnt this be +parry is better then +Block and +Block is better then +Defense?</p></blockquote><p>No actually.  While the order is parry--block-->base, you receive the most benefit from adding to whichever stat is highest.</p><p>So, for example, say you have 40% block, 20% parry, and 10% defense.</p><p>Your actual avoidance is as follows:</p><p>20% of incoming blows are parried.</p><p>.4*80%= 32% of incoming blows are blocked</p><p>.1*48%= 4.8% of incoming blows are dodged</p><p>Total avoidance: 56.8%</p><p>Now say you are trying to decide which stat to add to.  Look at what happens if you were to add 10% to parry, vs. 10% to block, vs. 10% to dodge:</p><p>If you add 10% to your parry, your avoidance becomes:</p><p>30% incoming blows parried</p><p>.4*70%= 28% of incoming blows blocked</p><p>.1*42%=4.2% of incoming blows are dodged</p><p>Total avoidance: 62.2% (5.4% gain)</p><p>If you add 10% to your block, this becomes</p><p>20% of incoming blows parried</p><p>.5*80= 40% of incoming blows blocked</p><p>.1*40%= 4% of incoming blows dodged</p><p>Total avoidance: 64% (7.2% gain)  <span style="color: #00ff00;"><---winner</span></p><p>If you add 10% do your defense, this becomes:</p><p>20% of incoming blows parried</p><p>.4*80%= 32% of incoming blows are blocked</p><p>.2*48%=9.6% of incoming blows dodged</p><p>Total avoidance: 61.6% (4.8% gain)</p><p>What that order (parry-->block-->dodge) means is that if you check your avoidance report on ACT, it will make it look like parry is more important than it actually is.  In reality, you gain the most benefit from increasing whichever stat is the highest.  In most cases, this is block.</p></blockquote><p>You are raising things by a % instead of by a static number.  Instead of saying you are raising something by 10% and giving the higher number the correct way would to be just to calculate the increase by actual % hikes.  Meaning 1 point parry = 1 point block = 1 point dodge.  Now as far as what benifits more per increase the lowest one actually benefits the most because a 1 point increase increase will be a little more effective due to the avoidance curve.</p><p>Now if there were actual items that worked for parry and defense like block chance works for block I could see how you might have a valid point, however, even that is flawed as well since the highest value is only the most effective provided the increase doesn't cap it.</p><p>The reality is parry block and defense are all equal in their respective contested and uncontested forms.</p>

[Gungo]

<p><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">- Increases to avoidance skills now have diminishing returns similar to the changes made for mitigation/resistance. Players experience more gains in avoidance when further away from the cap, and less gains as they reach closer to the cap</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Afaik that is still in effect, when I have time I will check to see if diminishing return effects block chance. In which case if it does then 159% block chance should not cap minimum block. </span></p><p>regarding base avoidance you have postedFor plate tanks, this avoidance only works against mobs that are hitting you from the front quadrant.  For brawlers, base defense is 360 degrees.  Afaik npcs can miss hitting a plate tank from behind. The only frontal avoidance from them is Block and parry.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>That's a fantastic way to test if things can be overcapped.  I think that clears up that particular question, so I've erased it from my list of things to find out.  By the way, have you ever managed to pump your base avoidance up to 100% to test if thats really the cap?</p></blockquote><p>Hit tsunami Vinka.  It will display at least 100%, it is actually possible to make it display more then 100% however you can't avoid more then 100% hence thats why 100% is the cap.  Actually getting to 100% base without using temps is probably impossible.  Which raises another point, extra riposte chance actually checks before everything even parry you don't have that listed correctly in your faq either as it is part of the base portion of the avoidance display, however, it doesn't check at the same time.</p>

[Gungo]

<p>Temps dont really justify no cap.I can hit indomitible will and reach 100% parry that doesnt mean the cap is 100% for parry. </p>

[circusgirl]

<p>What Gungo said re: Tsunami.  It's also 100% parry/riposte, not dodge I believe.  I don't think its a terribly pressing issue as to what the cap is, since its pretty hard to get there outside of short term buffs though.  Managed to pump my base up to 103% with tsunami on (though I have no idea why tsunami is displaying as base avoidance and not parry).</p><p>Good point about the curve canceling out the greater returns from adding to your highers stat.  I suppose that only really holds true for things that are % based.  </p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Temps dont really justify no cap.I can hit indomitible will and reach 100% parry that doesnt mean the cap is 100% for parry. </p></blockquote><p>Except that you can add a riposte item or buff and see the defensive number go OVER 100% showing it is actually possible to go above the cap can you do the same with with your parry buff?  Clearly it goes over 70% I also provided a screenshot with my buff above 70%.</p>

[Gungo]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Temps dont really justify no cap.I can hit indomitible will and reach 100% parry that doesnt mean the cap is 100% for parry. </p></blockquote><p>Except that you can add a riposte item or buff and see the defensive number go OVER 100% showing it is actually possible to go above the cap can you do the same with with your parry buff?  Clearly it goes over 70% I also provided a screenshot with my buff above 70%.</p></blockquote><p>You know that actually doesnt help your argument?It is mathematically impossible to avoid over 100%.Which means that using a temp buff and using the personae window is proof that the number provided is inaccurate.It actually proves the EXACT opposite of what you are saying.</p><p>The thing is base avoidance in the personae window is a hodgepodge of several avoidance rolls. It includes uncontested % avoidance items and buffs such as riposte, parry, and % dodge, which are completely seperate rolls. It also includes armour type, agi, and defense.</p><p>In fact the reason you likely can go over 100% on your base avoidance in the personae window likely has to do with the fact base avoidance is more then just 1 base avoidance roll. I have seen no evidence showing DEFENSE goes over 70%.</p><p>I can however prove that % avoidance items and buffs ARE seperate rolls included in the base avoidance % in the personae window.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Temps dont really justify no cap.I can hit indomitible will and reach 100% parry that doesnt mean the cap is 100% for parry. </p></blockquote><p>Except that you can add a riposte item or buff and see the defensive number go OVER 100% showing it is actually possible to go above the cap can you do the same with with your parry buff?  Clearly it goes over 70% I also provided a screenshot with my buff above 70%.</p></blockquote><p>You know that actually doesnt help your argument?It is mathematically impossible to avoid over 100%.Which means that using a temp buff and using the personae window is proof that the number provided is inaccurate.It actually proves the EXACT opposite of what you are saying.</p><p>The thing is base avoidance in the personae window is a hodgepodge of several avoidance rolls. It includes uncontested % avoidance items and buffs such as riposte, parry, and % dodge, which are completely seperate rolls. It also includes armour type, agi, and defense.</p><p>In fact the reason you likely can go over 100% on your base avoidance in the personae window likely has to do with the fact base avoidance is more then just 1 base avoidance roll. I have seen no evidence showing DEFENSE goes over 70%.</p><p>I can however prove that % avoidance items and buffs ARE seperate rolls included in the base avoidance % in the personae window.</p></blockquote><p>I have proven +riposte is part of the base avoidance mechanic, it is easy to see equip a riposte item base goes it, I have proven base can in fact go beyond 70%.  I haven't seen you provide anything put run your mouth as usual and be wrong.</p>

[Gungo]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Temps dont really justify no cap.I can hit indomitible will and reach 100% parry that doesnt mean the cap is 100% for parry. </p></blockquote><p>Except that you can add a riposte item or buff and see the defensive number go OVER 100% showing it is actually possible to go above the cap can you do the same with with your parry buff?  Clearly it goes over 70% I also provided a screenshot with my buff above 70%.</p></blockquote><p>You know that actually doesnt help your argument?It is mathematically impossible to avoid over 100%.Which means that using a temp buff and using the personae window is proof that the number provided is inaccurate.It actually proves the EXACT opposite of what you are saying.</p><p>The thing is base avoidance in the personae window is a hodgepodge of several avoidance rolls. It includes uncontested % avoidance items and buffs such as riposte, parry, and % dodge, which are completely seperate rolls. It also includes armour type, agi, and defense.</p><p>In fact the reason you likely can go over 100% on your base avoidance in the personae window likely has to do with the fact base avoidance is more then just 1 base avoidance roll. I have seen no evidence showing DEFENSE goes over 70%.</p><p>I can however prove that % avoidance items and buffs ARE seperate rolls included in the base avoidance % in the personae window.</p></blockquote><p>I have proven +riposte is part of the base avoidance mechanic, it is easy to see equip a riposte item base goes it, I have proven base can in fact go beyond 70%.  I haven't seen you provide anything put run your mouth as usual and be wrong.</p></blockquote><p>You have proven that % items go into the base avoidance score in the personae window. Which Hellen Keller could even show.You have absoutely no idea what you are talking about otherwise. You showed a screen shot of your base avoidance in the personae window going over 70%.Which doesnt mean DEFENSE can go over 70%.Any monk can show a screen shot showing BASE avoidance going over 100%. Which is impossible btw UNLESS there is more then 1 roll.</p><p>But here let me give u an easy test to show that % riposte items and % DODGE items ARE in fact seperate ROLLS.Put your avoid buff on anyone. Make sure you do not have any % riposte items on. Stay within 20mLook at that persons avoidance report for however long you want.You will never see a DODGE/MISS attributed to you.You only will see blocks and parries. Put on your VP 2 hander that gives 15% dodge, put on some riposte adornments.And watch the avoidance report again.</p><p>OMG amazing the report now shows XXX DODGES, XXX RIPOSTES.....I cna easily now show % parry items, % riposte items, % dodge items ALL go into the base avoidance score. On top of armour type, defense, and Agility.</p><p>The reason you go over 70%. The reason you go over 100% is because the personae window Clumps all these % avodiances into 1 stat. In reality it is more then 1 roll. And should have a seperate % in the personae window. and as you pointed out so CLEARLY it is IMPOSSIBLE to go over 100% avoidance OTHERWISE.</p><p>Maybe you need a simpler test. Here take off your % parry items % riposte and % dodge items (including food) make sure you do not have the defense stance buff for % riposte and try to go over 70% base avoidance. Good luck</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You have proven that % items go into the base avoidance score in the personae window. Which Hellen Keller could even show.You have absoutely no idea what you are talking about otherwise. You showed a screen shot of your base avoidance in the personae window going over 70%.Which doesnt mean DEFENSE can go over 70%.Any monk can show a screen shot showing BASE avoidance going over 100%. Which is impossible btw UNLESS there is more then 1 roll.</p><p>But here let me give u an easy test to show that % riposte items and % DODGE items ARE in fact seperate ROLLS.Put your avoid buff on anyone. Make sure you do not have any % riposte items on. Stay within 20mLook at that persons avoidance report for however long you want.You will never see a DODGE/MISS attributed to you.You only will see blocks and parries. Put on your VP 2 hander that gives 15% dodge, put on some riposte adornments.And watch the avoidance report again.</p><p>OMG amazing the report now shows XXX DODGES, XXX RIPOSTES.....I cna easily now show % parry items, % riposte items, % dodge items ALL go into the base avoidance score. On top of armour type, defense, and Agility.</p><p>The reason you go over 70%. The reason you go over 100% is because the personae window Clumps all these % avodiances into 1 stat. In reality it is more then 1 roll. And should have a seperate % in the personae window. and as you pointed out so CLEARLY it is IMPOSSIBLE to go over 100% avoidance OTHERWISE.</p><p>Maybe you need a simpler test. Here take off your % parry items % riposte and % dodge items (including food) make sure you do not have the defense stance buff for % riposte and try to go over 70% base avoidance. Good luck</p></blockquote><p>Clearly we are having two arguments here, the one where I am stating BASE doesn't cap and the one where the people who can't understand simple English where they want to explain how BASE works.  I suggest you go back and maybe study this thread a little more.  You can try and snake your way around it all day and night but the fact remains that the BASE portion of avoidance is uncapped.  It is entertaining watching you try and explain away what is plain in your face and divert the issue keep it up I'll warm up some popcorn.</p>

[Gungo]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You have proven that % items go into the base avoidance score in the personae window. Which Hellen Keller could even show.You have absoutely no idea what you are talking about otherwise. You showed a screen shot of your base avoidance in the personae window going over 70%.Which doesnt mean DEFENSE can go over 70%.Any monk can show a screen shot showing BASE avoidance going over 100%. Which is impossible btw UNLESS there is more then 1 roll.</p><p>But here let me give u an easy test to show that % riposte items and % DODGE items ARE in fact seperate ROLLS.Put your avoid buff on anyone. Make sure you do not have any % riposte items on. Stay within 20mLook at that persons avoidance report for however long you want.You will never see a DODGE/MISS attributed to you.You only will see blocks and parries. Put on your VP 2 hander that gives 15% dodge, put on some riposte adornments.And watch the avoidance report again.</p><p>OMG amazing the report now shows XXX DODGES, XXX RIPOSTES.....I cna easily now show % parry items, % riposte items, % dodge items ALL go into the base avoidance score. On top of armour type, defense, and Agility.</p><p>The reason you go over 70%. The reason you go over 100% is because the personae window Clumps all these % avodiances into 1 stat. In reality it is more then 1 roll. And should have a seperate % in the personae window. and as you pointed out so CLEARLY it is IMPOSSIBLE to go over 100% avoidance OTHERWISE.</p><p>Maybe you need a simpler test. Here take off your % parry items % riposte and % dodge items (including food) make sure you do not have the defense stance buff for % riposte and try to go over 70% base avoidance. Good luck</p></blockquote><p>Clearly we are having two arguments here, the one where I am stating <span style="font-size: small;"><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">BASE doesn't cap</span></strong> </span>and the one where the people who can't understand simple English where they want to explain how BASE works.  I suggest you go back and maybe study this thread a little more.  You can try and snake your way around it all day and night but the fact remains that the BASE portion of avoidance is uncapped.  It is entertaining watching you try and explain away what is plain in your face and divert the issue keep it up I'll warm up some popcorn.</p></blockquote><p>O, I see again you are proven to not have a freakin clue and and trying to not look completely downsydrome. Its like in beta and you telling people BLOCK was completely uncontested for brawlers.</p><p>I read the thread quite fine my point which you obviously lacked the mental capability to grasp still stands.</p><p>"Temps dont justify no cap."I clearly proved that. Defense/agi/base armour still caps at 70%Extra % effects are added after. And guess what they have a cap as well. You know what that means right?You're a little slow let me spell it out for you. <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">BASE has a CAP</span></strong>.</p><p>Yes that means you are wrong again. Be careful with the popcorn, it's hot! They put warning labels on those bags for people like you.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Avoidance Skills</span></span></p><p>Defense: reads as "Base" avoidance if you hover your mouse above your avoidance in the persona menu, and is increased by items that have +defense on them, as well as by increasing your agility.  <strong>Defense caps at 70%.</strong>  For plate tanks, this avoidance only works against mobs that are hitting you from the front quadrant.  For brawlers, base defense is 360 degrees.  </p></blockquote><p><img src="http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o176/mallent/70base.jpg" /></p></blockquote><p>Lawl</p>

[BChizzle]

<p>The best part about this whole thing is I can buff my parry to like 35% hit Bob and Weave and watch parry cap at 70% and not go over or block not go over 70% but at the same time watch BASE go over 70% and you guys are still trying to talk you way out of being completely wrong.</p><p>So explain this to me Gungo if parry doesn't go over 70% with a temp buff that in thoery should buff it beyond 70% and block doesn't go beyond 70% with that same buff that should buff it beyond 70%, but BASE does go beyond 70% what does that tell you?  Even my niece whos in 2nd grade knows that answer.  Basically your whole temp buff argument is smashed and it is again blantently obvious to anyone that BASE doesn't have a 70% cap. </p><p>Does + defense have a cap?  The answer is no since I can add 50% dodge to my defense and watch it go over 70%, does riposte have a cap again the answer is no since I can put on riposte gear and hit a 100% riposte buff and see it display as over 100%.</p><p>However, if I add 50% to my parry it still caps at 70% and if I add 100% block chance to my block when I am already at 65% it also only goes to 70%.</p>

[Gungo]

<p>Reread what i wrote and let it sink in you obviously don't know what you are talking about.</p><p>We will try one more time for you. Remove all of your % based items or buffs such as parry, riposte, and dodge. Do not use short term buffs. Buff up your defense as high as you can. There is no real cap on + skill anymore so you can get your BASE to 70%.Watch when you add more DEFENSE base avoid CAP at 70%.Now click on that % dodge food or whatever and watch your BASE % go over 70%.You see the answer is Defense caps at 70%The other half of BASE avoid which are the uncontested % rolls are added onto the base score you see in the persona window that too should cap at 70% just like uncontested block caps at 70% and regular block caps at 70%. </p><p>The fact is base avoidance is the cumulative score of MULTIPLE checks. Which is why it goes above 70%, but it still in fact has a cap. </p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Reread what i wrote and let it sink in you obviously don't know what you are talking about.</p><p>We will try one more time for you. Remove all of your % based items or buffs such as parry, riposte, and dodge. Do not use short term buffs. Buff up your defense as high as you can. There is no real cap on + skill anymore so you can get your BASE to 70%.Watch when you add more DEFENSE base avoid CAP at 70%.Now click on that % dodge food or whatever and watch your BASE % go over 70%.You see the answer is Defense caps at 70%The other half of BASE avoid which are the uncontested % rolls are added onto the base score you see in the persona window that too should cap at 70% just like uncontested block caps at 70% and regular block caps at 70%. </p><p>The fact is base avoidance is the cumulative score of MULTIPLE checks. Which is why it goes above 70%, but it still in fact has a cap. </p></blockquote><p>This would be true except for the fact that I can remove all riposte gear from my toon effectively making all the BASE come from level, +def, and agi and still get over the cap so again nice try but fail.  I can also like I said buff parry to where it should be over 70% but it doesn't go over 70%.  Fact is BASE is uncapped plain and simple and no matter how you try and argue it I have facts backing me up vs your made up assumptions.</p><p>So Gungo explain this to me if you can, according to you TEMPS are allowed to put you over the caps then WHY doesn't Bob and Weave put me over the parry and block caps but it does put me over the BASE caps.  The reason is because quite simply one of them is uncapped the other two aren't.  End of the day no matter how you try and spin it you are absolutely wrong on this one.  And your usual name calling and telling people to learn to read garbage isn't going to help you.</p><p>Fact is I can be at 70% parry and eat some parry food and not go above 70% I can be at 70% base and eat some dodge food and go above 70% you can't argue that.</p>

[Landiin]

All I have to say is I eat way to much pizza and will not be avoiding anything for the rest of the night. Well except the crapper. I think the formula is something like 1 / (((# slices * # toppings) / diameter) * time of last meal) = chance to avoid

[Gungo]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Reread what i wrote and let it sink in you obviously don't know what you are talking about.</p><p>We will try one more time for you. Remove all of your % based items or buffs such as parry, riposte, and dodge. Do not use short term buffs. Buff up your defense as high as you can. There is no real cap on + skill anymore so you can get your BASE to 70%.Watch when you add more DEFENSE base avoid CAP at 70%.Now click on that % dodge food or whatever and watch your BASE % go over 70%.You see the answer is Defense caps at 70%The other half of BASE avoid which are the uncontested % rolls are added onto the base score you see in the persona window that too should cap at 70% just like uncontested block caps at 70% and regular block caps at 70%. </p><p>The fact is base avoidance is the cumulative score of MULTIPLE checks. Which is why it goes above 70%, but it still in fact has a cap. </p></blockquote><p>This would be true except for the fact that I can remove all riposte gear from my toon effectively making all the BASE come from level, +def, and agi and still get over the cap so again nice try but fail.  I can also like I said buff parry to where it should be over 70% but it doesn't go over 70%.  Fact is BASE is uncapped plain and simple and no matter how you try and argue it I have facts backing me up vs your made up assumptions.</p><p>So Gungo explain this to me if you can, according to you TEMPS are allowed to put you over the caps then WHY doesn't Bob and Weave put me over the parry and block caps but it does put me over the BASE caps.  The reason is because quite simply one of them is uncapped the other two aren't.  End of the day no matter how you try and spin it you are absolutely wrong on this one.  And your usual name calling and telling people to learn to read garbage isn't going to help you.</p><p>Fact is I can be at 70% parry and eat some parry food and not go above 70% I can be at 70% base and eat some dodge food and go above 70% you can't argue that.</p></blockquote><p>No you can't. Now we all know you are just lying and making stuff up. Take off your def stance adornment that gives you +riposte. You can add all the +defense skill in the world and NOT go over 70%. You haven't tested this you are absolutely lying at this point. </p><p>Bob and weave doesn't overcap your buffs. It is one of the few temps that dont in fact. You already know bob and weave doesnt allow defense and base avodiance to go to 100% since you DO get hit when bob and weave is on. </p><p>I am not arguing about eating dodge food to go over 70% base since as i already explain and you have a hard time grasping. That Base does not equal dodge. Base on the personae window includes SEVERAL stats. All of which can be capped. </p><p>Again you have never know what you were talking about in beta you were arguing with people telling them ALL block for brawlers is uncontested. All you do is argue without proof and make stuff up. Honestly i am done at this point. You can believe whatever you want. It doesn't bother me in the slightest that you have no clue what you are doing. If you honestly believe base avoidance has NO CAP and you could get to permanent 100% avoidance through gear, good luck. </p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Reread what i wrote and let it sink in you obviously don't know what you are talking about.</p><p>We will try one more time for you. Remove all of your % based items or buffs such as parry, riposte, and dodge. Do not use short term buffs. Buff up your defense as high as you can. There is no real cap on + skill anymore so you can get your BASE to 70%.Watch when you add more DEFENSE base avoid CAP at 70%.Now click on that % dodge food or whatever and watch your BASE % go over 70%.You see the answer is Defense caps at 70%The other half of BASE avoid which are the uncontested % rolls are added onto the base score you see in the persona window that too should cap at 70% just like uncontested block caps at 70% and regular block caps at 70%. </p><p>The fact is base avoidance is the cumulative score of MULTIPLE checks. Which is why it goes above 70%, but it still in fact has a cap. </p></blockquote><p>This would be true except for the fact that I can remove all riposte gear from my toon effectively making all the BASE come from level, +def, and agi and still get over the cap so again nice try but fail.  I can also like I said buff parry to where it should be over 70% but it doesn't go over 70%.  Fact is BASE is uncapped plain and simple and no matter how you try and argue it I have facts backing me up vs your made up assumptions.</p><p>So Gungo explain this to me if you can, according to you TEMPS are allowed to put you over the caps then WHY doesn't Bob and Weave put me over the parry and block caps but it does put me over the BASE caps.  The reason is because quite simply one of them is uncapped the other two aren't.  End of the day no matter how you try and spin it you are absolutely wrong on this one.  And your usual name calling and telling people to learn to read garbage isn't going to help you.</p><p>Fact is I can be at 70% parry and eat some parry food and not go above 70% I can be at 70% base and eat some dodge food and go above 70% you can't argue that.</p></blockquote><p>No you can't. Now we all know you are just lying and making stuff up. Take off your def stance adornment that gives you +riposte. You can add all the +defense skill in the world and NOT go over 70%. You haven't tested this you are absolutely lying at this point. </p><p>Bob and weave doesn't overcap your buffs. It is one of the few temps that dont in fact. You already know bob and weave doesnt allow defense and base avodiance to go to 100% since you DO get hit when bob and weave is on. </p><p>I am not arguing about eating dodge food to go over 70% base since as i already explain and you have a hard time grasping. That Base does not equal dodge. Base on the personae window includes SEVERAL stats. All of which can be capped. </p><p>Again you have never know what you were talking about in beta you were arguing with people telling them ALL block for brawlers is uncontested. All you do is argue without proof and make stuff up. Honestly i am done at this point. You can believe whatever you want. It doesn't bother me in the slightest that you have no clue what you are doing. If you honestly believe base avoidance has NO CAP and you could get to permanent 100% avoidance through gear, good luck. </p></blockquote><p>Ill put it simply for you, that 72.8 base avoidance I posted for you is WITHOUT the riposte adorn or riposte gear on.  Thanks for trying.  Also I am done arguing this, base goes over 70% you yourself have admitted Bob and Weave for monks doesn't put avoidance over the 70% cap yet I have shown you base going over the cap whether it is riposte food dodge items etc it still goes over 70%, sure it would make sense for them to seperate everything for the UI but currently its not seperated so saying BASE includes all those things.</p>

[Dorieon]

<p>I have to agree with Bchizzle here. I have been able to get my base over 70% without temp buffs as well. He never said there was no cap, he said the cap was 100% (unless I missed/forgot that post). If there is a cap it does seem different than the other avoidance caps. That said, I haven't done alot of testing on it, just the normal how can I push my avoid higher test that we all do late at night when no one is looking.</p><p>But really, when we are over 90% avoid and have 70% or higher mit in raids who cares. The only thing that really matters at that point is finding a way to raise our min block chance or shooting for the moon and trying for more mit lol.</p>

[Costa]

<p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><div><span style="text-decoration: underline;">How multiple avoidance checks work</span></div><div>It is worth noting that your avoidance numbers are not additive across different checks.  If you have 4.4% uncontested parry (from infusions/reduction food, for example) and 31% minimum block, your uncontested avoidance is <strong>not</strong> 35.4%.  Avoidance checks are carried out in the following order:</div><div></div><div><ol><li>Parry/Riposte</li><li>Block</li><li>Base</li></ol><div>What this means is that only your parry will actually give the amount of contested avoidance stated, and that other checks will give you slightly lower returns since they will not have a chance to avoid 100% of incoming attacks.  For example, if you had a character with 10% parry, 40% block, and 10% base avoidance, your avoidance would look like this:</div></div><div></div><div>10% of attacks are parried/riposted</div><div></div><div>90% of attacks have a chance to be blocked.  .4*90=36, so 36% of attacks are blocked</div><div></div><div>54% of attacks have a chance to be dodged.  .1*54= 5.4% of attacks dodged</div><div></div><div>So your net avoidance is not 10+40+10=60%, but 10+36+5.4=51.4%  Please note that the above example is ignoring the contested nature of most avoidance and strikethroughs.</div><div></div><div><strong>Because of the way the math on this works out, you will receive greater returns for adding to whichever avoidance stat is the highest.  Typically, this means that block is better than defense, and that defense is better than parry.  </strong>So, for example, if you are trying to decide between food with 2.2% parry and food with 2.2% dodge, you are typically better choosing dodge, unless your parry skill is higher than your defense skill.  Ripostes work off of successful parry's however, so if ripostes are important to you then increasing your parry skill is a wise step.</div></blockquote><p>Ok just being a complete noob here and the fact i'm reading this at work and don't have chance to read my persona window so i am just enquiring is the 90% chance to block and 54% chance to dodge a fixed amount to use in the sums when working out the avoidance checks?</p><p>I can't remeber what my parry is or my defence is at for my pally off the top of my head but i know his block chance (shield mod) is at 59.6%. So according to the sum you've posted i would do .596*90 = 53.64% of attacks blocked?</p><p>This as you've stated is my plate fighters uncontested avoidance. Does it cap at 70% block chance or 70% after the sum? As it stands right now all i will need is a shield with 25% block chance and i'll reach the 70% before the maths.</p><p>Also with all the 'discussions' about brawler avoidance i'm kinda confused at what caps at 70% and what can be taken higher. In raid last night my accumalated avoidance was at 71%. Does this mean that in a raid environment it is possable to push the accumalated avoidance much higher than 70% but parry, defence and block chance will all cap seperatly at 70%?</p>

[Costa]

<p>Ok i think i've seen where i've gone wrong with block chance in that it is calculated to my block which is my shield but what i am struggling to work out is where you get the dodge multiplier from. Every one of these calcualtions is different and my simple brain is not seeing the pattern. </p><p><cite><a href="mailto:Vinka@Antonia">Vinka@Antonia</a> Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Silzin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><div><ol><li>Parry/Riposte</li><li>Block</li><li>Base</li></ol><div>What ...</div></div><div></div><div><strong>Because of the way the math on this works out, you will receive greater returns for adding to whichever avoidance stat is the highest.  Typically, this means that <span style="text-decoration: underline;">block is better than parry</span>, and that parry is better than defense.</strong></div><div>...</div></blockquote><p>Shouldnt this be +parry is better then +Block and +Block is better then +Defense?</p></blockquote><p>No actually.  While the order is parry--block-->base, you receive the most benefit from adding to whichever stat is highest.</p><p>So, for example, say you have 40% block, 20% parry, and 10% defense.</p><p>Your actual avoidance is as follows:</p><p>20% of incoming blows are parried.</p><p>.4*80%= 32% of incoming blows are blocked</p><p>.1*48%= 4.8% of incoming blows are dodged</p><p>Total avoidance: 56.8%</p><p>Now say you are trying to decide which stat to add to.  Look at what happens if you were to add 10% to parry, vs. 10% to block, vs. 10% to dodge:</p><p>If you add 10% to your parry, your avoidance becomes:</p><p>30% incoming blows parried</p><p>.4*70%= 28% of incoming blows blocked</p><p>.1*42%=4.2% of incoming blows are dodged</p><p>Total avoidance: 62.2% (5.4% gain)</p><p>If you add 10% to your block, this becomes</p><p>20% of incoming blows parried</p><p>.5*80= 40% of incoming blows blocked</p><p>.1*40%= 4% of incoming blows dodged</p><p>Total avoidance: 64% (7.2% gain)  <span style="color: #00ff00;"><---winner</span></p><p>If you add 10% do your defense, this becomes:</p><p>20% of incoming blows parried</p><p>.4*80%= 32% of incoming blows are blocked</p><p>.2*48%=9.6% of incoming blows dodged</p><p>Total avoidance: 61.6% (4.8% gain)</p><p>What that order (parry-->block-->dodge) means is that if you check your avoidance report on ACT, it will make it look like parry is more important than it actually is.  In reality, you gain the most benefit from increasing whichever stat is the highest.  In most cases, this is block.</p></blockquote><p>Currently my Parry is 15.7%, Block is 27.4% and Base is 44.7% straight off of the persona window. My +Block Chance is 59.4%. How do i use these figures to work out my avoidance and how do you work out the multiplier for the base?</p><p>Thanks for any help on this. </p>

[circusgirl]

<p><cite>Bazill@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ok i think i've seen where i've gone wrong with block chance in that it is calculated to my block which is my shield but what i am struggling to work out is where you get the dodge multiplier from. Every one of these calcualtions is different and my simple brain is not seeing the pattern. </p><p>Currently my Parry is 15.7%, Block is 27.4% and Base is 44.7% straight off of the persona window. My +Block Chance is 59.4%. How do i use these figures to work out my avoidance and how do you work out the multiplier for the base?</p><p>Thanks for any help on this.</p></blockquote><p>Your contested avoidance can be calculated as follows.  Imagine that an even-conned mob tries to hit you 100 times:</p><p>15.7% of attacks are parried.  (84.3% of attacks haven't been avoided yet)</p><p>27.4% of 84.3 attacks are blocked, so 84.3* .274=23.1% of attacks are blocked (100-15.7-23.1=61.2, so 61.2% of attacks are left over)</p><p>44.7% of those 61.2% of attacks can be avoided by your base avoidance, so 61.2* 0.447=27.4% of attacks are avoided by your base avoidance.</p><p>Your total avoidance should be: 15.7+23.1+27.4=66.2%</p><p>This should be your avoidance against an even-conned mob.  You'll not that I didn't do any calculations based off your block chance, this is because your block chance is already calculated into the block that shows up in your avoidance tooltip.  </p><p>Those numbers you were confused about in my calculations were just the number of hits that hadn't already been avoided.  I hope that clarifies it somewhat!</p>

[Costa]

<p>Yes it did ty <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" /><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Turb]

<p>So three questions:</p><p>a) how does the dogwood's 15% Extra Dodge Chance fit into the avoidance picture in T9?   Contested or uncontested on the base check?   While the damage element may be low it might become more attractive defensively if the +5 Minimum Block Chance is moved to a brawler's myth buff spell.</p><p>b) presumably uncontested avoidance of each type is tested for parry/riposte then block then base, before the contested roll for each type of check?  Say if I have 45% uncontested block and 70% block chance?   I would assume I have a 45% chance then to outright block regardless of mob level then a (heavily adjusted) 70% chance to block the other 55%?</p><p>c) does anyone have some analysis of how heavily a contested check is adjusted for say a L98 epic target?</p><p>Thanks.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p><cite>Ratius@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So three questions:</p><p>a) how does the dogwood's 15% Extra Dodge Chance fit into the avoidance picture in T9?   Contested or uncontested on the base check?   While the damage element may be low it might become more attractive defensively if the +5 Minimum Block Chance is moved to a brawler's myth buff spell.</p><p>b) presumably uncontested avoidance of each type is tested for parry/riposte then block then base, before the contested roll for each type of check?  Say if I have 45% uncontested block and 70% block chance?   I would assume I have a 45% chance then to outright block regardless of mob level then a (heavily adjusted) 70% chance to block the other 55%?</p><p>c) does anyone have some analysis of how heavily a contested check is adjusted for say a L98 epic target?</p><p>Thanks.</p></blockquote><p>a) 15% extra dodge chance will take your dodge score (which is part of your "base" avoidance) and multiply it by 1.15.  Because "base" avoidance is really an amalgamation of multiple checks, this number is hard to figure out mathematically.  To see how much this affects your contested dodge, I would hover your mouse over your avoidance, note your base number, equip the staff, and then see how much the amount changes.  To see how this staff affects your uncontested avoidance, use the following calculation:</p><p>Take the amount of uncontested dodge you have (could be as high as 5% if you are using 2.5% dodge food and 2.5% dodge drink) and multiply by 1.15.  What this means is that at the very most, you getting 5 x 1.15= 5.75% dodge.  Thats only an increase of 0.75% uncontested avoidance.  I would strongly recommend against using the dogwood staff in T9, you'll do much better with a 4.0 delay weapon and the defender's cestus, which is bought off of mark of manaar merchants and offers 20% block chance.</p><p>b) My understanding of how contested vs. uncontested rolls work is that whichever roll is higher is the one that is used.  So, for example, say I have 50% minimum block and 70% contested block.  If I am fighting a level 90 mob, then my 70% contested block is higher and so that value is used.  My minimum block does nothing for me.  However, if I am fighting a raid mob with a high weapons skill, my contested block is no longer 70%...it drops to a number that is actually quite low.  As a result, my minimum block chance is higher and that is the number that is used.  Realistically speaking, against raid mobs your contested avoidance really is pretty negligible.  The best way to improve your avoidance against raid mobs is by focusing on minimum block & block chance for brawlers, shields and block chance for plate tanks, and sources of uncontested avoidance such as the parry/dodge food and drink, etc.</p><p>c)I don't have a formula for how much contested avoidance we lose.  I really wish I did, but I don't.  I feel pretty confident in saying that you lose significantly more than half of your contested avoidance, however, because its clear as a brawler that minimum block chance is the roll thats being used on raids.  </p>

[Turb]

<p>Thanks, very useful <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>a) 15% extra dodge chance will take your dodge score (which is part of your "base" avoidance) and multiply it by 1.15.  Because "base" avoidance is really an amalgamation of multiple checks, this number is hard to figure out mathematically.  To see how much this affects your contested dodge, I would hover your mouse over your avoidance, note your base number, equip the staff, and then see how much the amount changes.  To see how this staff affects your uncontested avoidance, use the following calculation:</p><p>Take the amount of uncontested dodge you have (could be as high as 5% if you are using 2.5% dodge food and 2.5% dodge drink) and multiply by 1.15.  What this means is that at the very most, you getting 5 x 1.15= 5.75% dodge.  Thats only an increase of 0.75% uncontested avoidance.  I would strongly recommend against using the dogwood staff in T9, you'll do much better with a 4.0 delay weapon and the defender's cestus, which is bought off of mark of manaar merchants and offers 20% block chance.</p><p>b) My understanding of how contested vs. uncontested rolls work is that whichever roll is higher is the one that is used.  So, for example, say I have 50% minimum block and 70% contested block.  If I am fighting a level 90 mob, then my 70% contested block is higher and so that value is used.  My minimum block does nothing for me.  However, if I am fighting a raid mob with a high weapons skill, my contested block is no longer 70%...it drops to a number that is actually quite low.  As a result, my minimum block chance is higher and that is the number that is used.  Realistically speaking, against raid mobs your contested avoidance really is pretty negligible.  The best way to improve your avoidance against raid mobs is by focusing on minimum block & block chance for brawlers, shields and block chance for plate tanks, and sources of uncontested avoidance such as the parry/dodge food and drink, etc.</p><p>c)I don't have a formula for how much contested avoidance we lose.  I really wish I did, but I don't.  I feel pretty confident in saying that you lose significantly more than half of your contested avoidance, however, because its clear as a brawler that minimum block chance is the roll thats being used on raids.  </p></blockquote><p>a) The Dogwood staff is just 15% base avoid uncontested unless they changed it not a multiplier however it is subject to avoidance curves.  It isn't a multiplier like block chance same with the food both are uncontested.  Tanking wise in theory it is the best avoidance item in this game however it would be very difficult to hold agro with a RoK weapon.</p><p>b) I disagree it is the higher roll that is used in contested vs uncontested.  I think contested and uncontested are lumped together for the final roll there is no proof of this of course but an easy way to check it is to see your blocks on a green mob and see that it is possible that they go higher then your min block chance ie you can block near 70% on them consistently without near to 70% uncontested block.</p><p>c) see b)</p>

[circusgirl]

<p>Hrm.  I assumed based on the wording "extra dodge chance" on the supple dogwood staff that it would work just like block chance and the parry chance on the RE2 cloak.  But then, Xelgad has said that riposte chance (depending on how exactly it is worded) is straight uncontested avoidance, so I suppose it could go either way.  Test it out and see, I suppose.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p>I can't believe this fail of a thread is now stickied.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I can't believe this fail of a thread is now stickied.</p></blockquote><p>It has some useful information piled in between the completely wrong stuff.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p>I'm trying to keep the first post at least as accurate as possible, so if there's anything in there that's flat-out wrong or just misleading, please point it out to me and I'll do my best to fix it!  As for the inevitable arguments that pop up whenever enough monks gather in a forum thread...well, I'm so used to that they don't really bother me anymore ;p</p>

[Costa]

<p>The monks should just take it to the BG's and duke it out amongst them selves <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Silzin]

<p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><ul><li>+minimum block chance: This stat is seen in two forms:  the first is a blue stat called minimum block chance (<span style="color: #ff0000;">seen only on monk mythical as far as I know</span>), and the second is on brawler balanced and defensive stances and is worded as follows: "Caster will deflect X% of incoming attacks"  Both add up and are a flat % chance to block an incoming attack, regardless of the attacker's level--<strong>This is the source of a brawler's uncontested avoidance.</strong></li></ul></blockquote><p>I think Bruisers also get the + 5% minimum block chance.  As a monk i am not sure, but i think both brawlers get it.  EQ2 Wiki has crean shots of both with the + min. block chance.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><span ><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Vinka's Questions:</span></p><ul><li>If a mob strikethroughs a successful avoidance check will successive avoidance checks still run?  For example--if a mob strikethroughs a parry, do you still have a chance to block or dodge?</li></ul><strong>No once a strikethrough 'procs' that is it.</strong><ul><li>Do avoidance lends such as Shake-off and Tranquil Vision work after a mob has struck through the targets avoidance?</li></ul><strong>Again no once a strikethrough 'procs' that is it.</strong><ul><li>Does +block chance have a cap, or will it increase your block and minimum block until those stats cap?                 -Timetravelling has stated that the cap is 70%, but it seems likely that he was referring to block, not block chance.</li></ul><strong>Timetravelling was refferring to block not block chance you can easily go over 70% block chance.  There really is no reason that this stat should have a hard cap since it does have a soft one which is when your block hits 70% any additional block chance will do nothing.</strong></span></p>

[circusgirl]

<p>Updated!</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Updated!</p></blockquote><p>Just in case there is any confusion since it shows up as an avoid on the ACT avoidance report a stoneskin is not a successful avoidance check and will 'block' the damage from a strikethrough.</p>

[Chanson]

Can anyone shed some light as to how many +defense or +parry would be equivalent to +1% block chance? I.E. one ring has +1 deflection/+1 parry/+1.1% block chance and another just has +9 deflection/+9 parry. Does the +1.1% block chance make up for the 8 point loss in deflection and parry? And if so, at what point would it not? Would +1.1% block chance be equivalent to +10 deflection/parry? +12 deflection/parry? Or is it that +block chance will always be superior as it will also raise uncontested avoidance? (from what I understand reading through this topic)

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>nipxur wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Can anyone shed some light as to how many +defense or +parry would be equivalent to +1% block chance? I.E. one ring has +1 deflection/+1 parry/+1.1% block chance and another just has +9 deflection/+9 parry. Does the +1.1% block chance make up for the 8 point loss in deflection and parry? And if so, at what point would it not? Would +1.1% block chance be equivalent to +10 deflection/parry? +12 deflection/parry? Or is it that +block chance will always be superior as it will also raise uncontested avoidance? (from what I understand reading through this topic)</blockquote><p>There is no flat formula for this because it depends on mob level and attack rating.  And yes raising uncontested avoidance is always the best method to increase your avoidance, however, you can also raise uncontested dodge, riposte and parry so you don't always have to do it through block chance.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p>If I'm ever feeling incredibly dorkfaced and bored I might try to graph the avoidance you get from various amounts of +deflection/parry/defense gear.  It'd be kind of a pain to get enough data points to make sure I wasn't messing things up with various other stats though.  I imagine parry would be the easiest stat to do it with since that one is the most straightforward.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If I'm ever feeling incredibly dorkfaced and bored I might try to graph the avoidance you get from various amounts of +deflection/parry/defense gear.  It'd be kind of a pain to get enough data points to make sure I wasn't messing things up with various other stats though.  I imagine parry would be the easiest stat to do it with since that one is the most straightforward.</p></blockquote><p>GL with that, as they are all on curves I am guessing you will find it very fun.</p>

[Turb]

<p>I look forward to your 3D spinning visualisation of the data <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I'm still hoping to find better info on how the contested and uncontested avoid ratings are applied for each of the three checks.   I mean, if we get 5% uncontested parry from food/drink, wouldn't even the adjusted base parry be higher than that against L98 epics, so what would be the point of such food/drink.    I would assume we get a 'free' uncontested roll before the contested roll, for parry, block and base checks, or as BChizzle said perhaps they are 'lumped together' somehow...</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Ratius@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I look forward to your 3D spinning visualisation of the data <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p><p>I'm still hoping to find better info on how the contested and uncontested avoid ratings are applied for each of the three checks.   I mean, if we get 5% uncontested parry from food/drink, wouldn't even the adjusted base parry be higher than that against L98 epics, so what would be the point of such food/drink.    I would assume we get a 'free' uncontested roll before the contested roll, for parry, block and base checks, or as BChizzle said perhaps they are 'lumped together' somehow...</p></blockquote><p>They are lumped together.</p>

[Chanson]

<p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><ul><li>items with +parry increase your contested avoidance</li><li>items with "additional riposte chance" increase your chance of turning a succesful parry into a riposte.  <strong>This stat does not increase your avoidance at all.</strong></li><li>items with "riposte chance" give uncontested avoidance: a straight chance to riposte/parry an incoming attack</li><li>items with "riposte damage" increase the damage you do on a successful riposte.  This stat does not increase your avoidance.</li></ul></blockquote><p>Forgive me if this has been answered, I don't recall seeing this clarified when I had read the posts before. Abandoned Gi of the Jin Drake has 4% Extra Riposte Chance (as well as set bonuses of 1%/2% Extra Riposte Chance). Is this considered "additional riposte chance" and doesn't increase avoidance, or is this more "riposte chance" and increases uncontested avoidance?</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>nipxur wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><ul><li>items with +parry increase your contested avoidance</li><li>items with "additional riposte chance" increase your chance of turning a succesful parry into a riposte.  <strong>This stat does not increase your avoidance at all.</strong></li><li>items with "riposte chance" give uncontested avoidance: a straight chance to riposte/parry an incoming attack</li><li>items with "riposte damage" increase the damage you do on a successful riposte.  This stat does not increase your avoidance.</li></ul></blockquote><p>Forgive me if this has been answered, I don't recall seeing this clarified when I had read the posts before. Abandoned Gi of the Jin Drake has 4% Extra Riposte Chance (as well as set bonuses of 1%/2% Extra Riposte Chance). Is this considered "additional riposte chance" and doesn't increase avoidance, or is this more "riposte chance" and increases uncontested avoidance?</p></blockquote><p>Increases uncontested.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p>I really wish I knew exactly how contested/uncontested work together, at this point I've had a hard time collecting any conclusive data to answer that.</p><p>I did collect enough data last night to say pretty conclusively that +block chance definitely benefits you even if you go above 100% though--I stacked on enough block chance gear to hit +134-ish, (which would give an expected value of 63% minimum block) and was seeing block rates between 59 and 62%, well within a reasonable margin of error given the RNG, without using bob & weave or tsunami.  Given that block isn't the first avoidance check thats run but comes after parry, those numbers are actually a little higher than what I would expect--if you take the order of the avoidance checks into account and calculate in how much I was parrying, the math works out to give an expected value of 60% for the numbers I was putting out last night.  The numbers are a bit too close to know for sure if the little bit I'm above average is from some small amount of the contested avoidance being calculated in or not though.</p><p>Oh, as an aside:  Has anyone here ever seen a troubador avoid anything for them using song of shielding in an ACT report?  I have yet to see a single hit avoided in the report, and am not sure if its a result of the buff sucking or if its just a display error.</p>

[altuslum]

<p>I've seen a dirge parry for me a few times, but it seems pretty rare.  It is being caught by ACT at least though.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p>Wow.  It must really not be a very good buff then...I have never seen a single avoid from it.  I guess it makes sense since pretty much all of a bard's avoidance is going to be contested and with my avoidance being fairly high already they don't really have many chances for the buff to proc, but still, thats pretty sucky.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Wow.  It must really not be a very good buff then...I have never seen a single avoid from it.  I guess it makes sense since pretty much all of a bard's avoidance is going to be contested and with my avoidance being fairly high already they don't really have many chances for the buff to proc, but still, thats pretty sucky.</p></blockquote><p>Don't they have to be wearing a shield for it to work?</p>

[altuslum]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Wow.  It must really not be a very good buff then...I have never seen a single avoid from it.  I guess it makes sense since pretty much all of a bard's avoidance is going to be contested and with my avoidance being fairly high already they don't really have many chances for the buff to proc, but still, thats pretty sucky.</p></blockquote><p>Don't they have to be wearing a shield for it to work?</p></blockquote><p>I'd guess they do.  I've never seen a 'block' show up on ACT but the dirges that have used it have always been dual wielding.  I'm guessing it works similar to clerics, to get any real usefulness out of the buff a shield has to be used.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p><cite>altuslumen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Wow.  It must really not be a very good buff then...I have never seen a single avoid from it.  I guess it makes sense since pretty much all of a bard's avoidance is going to be contested and with my avoidance being fairly high already they don't really have many chances for the buff to proc, but still, thats pretty sucky.</p></blockquote><p>Don't they have to be wearing a shield for it to work?</p></blockquote><p>I'd guess they do.  I've never seen a 'block' show up on ACT but the dirges that have used it have always been dual wielding.  I'm guessing it works similar to clerics, to get any real usefulness out of the buff a shield has to be used.</p></blockquote><p>I imagine they *can* (theoretically speaking) get a parry or something off for you without a shield, but that the chances of that are pretty low, and that the reason I'm not seeing any avoids is probably because of the bard not wearing a shield.  I'll see if I can get him to slap one on next time he has it on me so I can test it.</p>

[Lethe5683]

<p><span style="color: #993366;">Is avoidance 360 for brawlers only and the same for all other classes? Or are there other classes that also get 360 avoidance?  Because I know for a <em>fact</em> that my assassin has parryed and dodged plenty of times vs mobs directly behind them.</span></p><p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Base is fully contested and is improved by +agility, though the amount agi  improves it by is fairly small.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">It's not neccissarily, uncontested doge and reposite both count as base avoidance.</span></p>

[Chanson]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>nipxur wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><ul><li>items with +parry increase your contested avoidance</li><li>items with "additional riposte chance" increase your chance of turning a succesful parry into a riposte.  <strong>This stat does not increase your avoidance at all.</strong></li><li>items with "riposte chance" give uncontested avoidance: a straight chance to riposte/parry an incoming attack</li><li>items with "riposte damage" increase the damage you do on a successful riposte.  This stat does not increase your avoidance.</li></ul></blockquote><p>Forgive me if this has been answered, I don't recall seeing this clarified when I had read the posts before. Abandoned Gi of the Jin Drake has 4% Extra Riposte Chance (as well as set bonuses of 1%/2% Extra Riposte Chance). Is this considered "additional riposte chance" and doesn't increase avoidance, or is this more "riposte chance" and increases uncontested avoidance?</p></blockquote><p>Increases uncontested.</p></blockquote><p>Either this has changed, or the ui on test is bugged. Test now shows an uncontested block on the mouseover for avoidance. When I have no armor on, my uncontested block is at 20% (beta buffed up). With a full set of T2 void shard armor, which should be 9% extra riposte chance (4% from chest piece, 5% from set bonuses), my uncontest block goes up to 20.1%</p><p>Is the UI bugged, or is the Extra Riposte Chance not uncontested anymore?</p>

[circusgirl]

<p><cite>nipxur wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>nipxur wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><ul><li>items with +parry increase your contested avoidance</li><li>items with "additional riposte chance" increase your chance of turning a succesful parry into a riposte.  <strong>This stat does not increase your avoidance at all.</strong></li><li>items with "riposte chance" give uncontested avoidance: a straight chance to riposte/parry an incoming attack</li><li>items with "riposte damage" increase the damage you do on a successful riposte.  This stat does not increase your avoidance.</li></ul></blockquote><p>Forgive me if this has been answered, I don't recall seeing this clarified when I had read the posts before. Abandoned Gi of the Jin Drake has 4% Extra Riposte Chance (as well as set bonuses of 1%/2% Extra Riposte Chance). Is this considered "additional riposte chance" and doesn't increase avoidance, or is this more "riposte chance" and increases uncontested avoidance?</p></blockquote><p>Increases uncontested.</p></blockquote><p>Either this has changed, or the ui on test is bugged. Test now shows an uncontested block on the mouseover for avoidance. When I have no armor on, my uncontested block is at 20% (beta buffed up). With a full set of T2 void shard armor, which should be 9% extra riposte chance (4% from chest piece, 5% from set bonuses), my uncontest block goes up to 20.1%</p><p>Is the UI bugged, or is the Extra Riposte Chance not uncontested anymore?</p></blockquote><p>Presumeably the ui is showing you your uncontested <strong>block</strong>, not your uncontested <strong>avoidance</strong>.  What this means is that it is showing you the block given by your shield (if you're a plate tank) or your defensive stance (if you're a brawler) modified by your +block chance.  It is only showing the portion of your uncontested avoidance that is block.  You'll also notice that things like parry/dodge food and drink do not increase this number, despite being uncontested.  The reason for this is simple: they increase your uncontested parry and your uncontested base avoidance, not your uncontested block.</p><p>The +extra riposte chance items increase your uncontested <strong>base</strong> avoidance, not your uncontested <strong>block.  </strong>It is still uncontested, but will not display in the tooltip.</p>

[Xill]

<p>So forgive me if this has been answered. But the red adorn that does +10 addition chance to riposte only increases your chance to riposte from a parry... and does not increase your avoid? Seems like a MASSIVE waste of a red slot...</p>

[Ambrin]

<p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">Is avoidance 360 for brawlers only and the same for all other classes? Or are there other classes that also get 360 avoidance?  Because I know for a <em>fact</em> that my assassin has parryed and dodged plenty of times vs mobs directly behind them.</span></p><p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Base is fully contested and is improved by +agility, though the amount agi  improves it by is fairly small.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">It's not neccissarily, uncontested doge and reposite both count as base avoidance.</span></p></blockquote><p>There are adornments and items that read something like "The caster will riposte 3% of frontal attacks, attacks from other quadrants have the same chance at being parried." This is the only way (to the best of my knowledge) a non-brawler can avoid attacks from behind.</p><p>Xill, the red adorn is waste as it does exactly what you are describing.</p>

[Xill]

<p><cite>Ambrin@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">Is avoidance 360 for brawlers only and the same for all other classes? Or are there other classes that also get 360 avoidance?  Because I know for a <em>fact</em> that my assassin has parryed and dodged plenty of times vs mobs directly behind them.</span></p><p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Base is fully contested and is improved by +agility, though the amount agi  improves it by is fairly small.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">It's not neccissarily, uncontested doge and reposite both count as base avoidance.</span></p></blockquote><p>There are adornments and items that read something like "The caster will riposte 3% of frontal attacks, attacks from other quadrants have the same chance at being parried." This is the only way (to the best of my knowledge) a non-brawler can avoid attacks from behind.</p><p>Xill, the red adorn is waste as it does exactly what you are describing.</p></blockquote><p>Thats kind of a shockingly useless adorn... Why would they even implement that except to confuse people? Or hope they waste seals on it before they find out? I mean [Removed for Content]? Am I missing something about this or would this be better off NOT in the game at all and just leave them 1 adorn short?</p>

[circusgirl]

<p>I think certain classes might have a chance to proc stoneskins or something like that on a riposte, but I'm not sure.  For the most part, yes, its a totally useless adornment.</p>

[Azzad]

<p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think certain classes might have a chance to proc stoneskins or something like that on a riposte, but I'm not sure.  For the most part, yes, its a totally useless adornment.</p></blockquote><p>Bruisers.</p>

[Aule]

<p>Now that uncontested block displays in the tooltip, I was doing a bunch of gear swapping and watching the effect of agility on uncontested block while in defensive stance. There appears to be a bonus applying starting in between 927 - 930 agility of +0.1% uncontested block per 10 points of agility. I'll need to do some more plotting to see if it's curved or linear, and where exactly the points are. Has anybody else already done any of this work? It did seem pretty linear, such that you can do (uncontested block rate) * (block chance) + ((agil - 920)/100) and be pretty spot on.</p><p>edit: It may just be that it's 0.01% per point of agil past 920 and block rate trunc's the 100ths digit.</p>

[Gungo]

<p><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Now that uncontested block displays in the tooltip, I was doing a bunch of gear swapping and watching the effect of agility on uncontested block while in defensive stance. There appears to be a bonus applying starting in between 927 - 930 agility of +0.1% uncontested block per 10 points of agility. I'll need to do some more plotting to see if it's curved or linear, and where exactly the points are. Has anybody else already done any of this work? It did seem pretty linear, such that you can do (uncontested block rate) * (block chance) + ((agil - 920)/100) and be pretty spot on.</p><p>edit: It may just be that it's 0.01% per point of agil past 920 and block rate trunc's the 100ths digit.</p></blockquote><p>Not sure I follow you, but yes I did notice that uncontested block does not add up to formula (minmum block * block chance) as i previously thought and the % was a bit higher.</p><p>Are you sure it was agi increasing your block?That seems odd since agi increases base avoidance.are you sure no other stat was getting increased such as deflection? Deflection increases block (not the minimum block). Although it was previously stated that increasing your deflection beyond the cap will increase your avoidance. It would be good to know if this overcap increase translates into uncontested block.</p><p>I will look into it further shortly.</p>

[Esobella]

<p>Need help understanding this. I'm a bruiser.</p><p>I have 2 rings with identical stats except ring A has +5 defense and ring B has +5 deflection/+5 parry.</p><p>Now when I swap these 2 rings nothing changes. My base, block, parry, uncontested block all stay exactly the same.</p><p>Is 5 defense equal to 5 deflection AND 5 parry?</p>

[Gungo]

<p><cite>Sangfugol@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think certain classes might have a chance to proc stoneskins or something like that on a riposte, but I'm not sure.  For the most part, yes, its a totally useless adornment.</p></blockquote><p>Bruisers.</p></blockquote><p>Bruisers have an AA that gives us a 25% chance on a successful riposte of procing a stoneskin. Ripostes are only a 20% chance of parries. We have another AA that adds 10% to is value for 30% chance for a successful riposte.</p><p>To bad every high end raid mob and high end heroic mob nearly completely negates contested avodiance to the point it never procs.</p>

[Aule]

<p><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Now that uncontested block displays in the tooltip, I was doing a bunch of gear swapping and watching the effect of agility on uncontested block while in defensive stance. There appears to be a bonus applying starting in between 927 - 930 agility of +0.1% uncontested block per 10 points of agility. I'll need to do some more plotting to see if it's curved or linear, and where exactly the points are. Has anybody else already done any of this work? It did seem pretty linear, such that you can do (uncontested block rate) * (block chance) + ((agil - 920)/100) and be pretty spot on.</p><p>edit: It may just be that it's 0.01% per point of agil past 920 and block rate trunc's the 100ths digit.</p></blockquote><p>Not sure I follow you, but yes I did notice that uncontested block does not add up to formula (minmum block * block chance) as i previously thought and the % was a bit higher.</p><p>Are you sure it was agi increasing your block?That seems odd since agi increases base avoidance.are you sure no other stat was getting increased such as deflection? Deflection increases block (not the minimum block). Although it was previously stated that increasing your deflection beyond the cap will increase your avoidance. It would be good to know if this overcap increase translates into uncontested block.</p><p>I will look into it further shortly.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah I'll be able to test more thoroughly real late tonight.  But I'm positive it was agi increasing my uncontested block.  I took off every piece of gear that I currently had on (that wasn't +def stats or block %) and inched up my agi until things started changing, then started inching up smaller.</p><p>I'll plot out some actual numbers and test some stuff this evening.  Never noticed it before because figuring uncontested block values required suiciding before.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p>I've noticed a very slightly higher uncontested block than my formulas would suggest as well.  I'll see if I can grab some friends with buffs to test it as best I can--I think the ideal way to test it would be with stat buffs/potions, since you can remove as many of the conflicting factors as possible that way.</p>

[Aule]

<p><p>I've got some preliminary info, still not done getting all the data points that I wanted, but it's enough to make some statements.</p><p>Disclaimer:  I'm a brawler, I anticipate that these numbers only apply to brawlers based on statements made during beta testing about high agility providing a bonus to brawlers that does not have a hard cap.  If you're a plate tank you'll have to do your own testing.</p><p><ul><li>Agility increases at the high end affect all 4 avoidance numbers in the avoidance tooltip: base, block, parry, uncontested block.</li><li>The increase is on a diminishing return curve, what takes 12 or 13 points in the mid 900's will take 34 or 35 points in the mid 1300's to see the same increase.</li><li>Bonus starts kicking in at the lower end of the 900's, around 920 to 930.</li><li>The bonus appears to have the same curve for all 4 avoidances, the 2nd bullet point is applying the same vs. all 4.</li><li>The bonus appears to be a fixed value applied towards the existing score, rather than a multiplicative effect the way primary stat over 1200 is.</li><li>The bonus to uncontested block applies even when your score in it is a straight zero.  Turn off myth buff and don't run either combo or defensive stance to see.</li></ul><div>Once I have more data points collected and fill in some holes I'll post more data, and make the data available for anybody else who wants to analyze it.  I had to delete the data for base avoidance because I noticed an hour or two into it that two of the 12 or so pieces of gear I was swapping in had defense on them, so the set was corrupt.  That being said, base avoid was moving in similar lines to the other 3 so I feel confident about these statements applying to all 4.</div><div></div><div>Some thoughts then:</div><div><ul><li>It looks like it will be worth paying attention to agility during gear selection, at least until you're at 70% uncontested block.</li><li>The combined difference between expert and master on bruiser shrug off, bodyguard, brutality and bob'n'weave buffs (~58 pts) could provide as much as 0.3% to each avoidance.</li><li>Continuing on prior point, the 447.8 pts of agility from those 4 buffs at master level has a statistically significant effect on a bruiser's avoidance.  Adding 1.9% on the extreme (if your stats from gear put you at right at the start of the curve).</li><li>When your tanking matters more than your dps, it may be worthwhile selecting for agility related temporary's like food, drink, potions, etc.</li></ul><div>Things I still need to test:</div><div><ul><li>Is the curve actually independent of existing values?  I believe it is, but will need to start from a different base block value and test some key points to make sure.</li><li>Where does the bottom actually start?  I had a dirge friend standing there for a few hours so I collected data on the higher numbers first.</li></ul></div></div><div>Things I'm curious about:</div><div><ul><li>Would the 30+ point agility difference on "scout" gear vs. "tank" gear make up for (or matter more than) the defensive skills stats?</li><li>Is the agility bonus uncontested?  This would mostly matter for parry, which normally gets contested down to pathetic levels vs. epic's.</li></ul></div></p></p>

[Aule]

<p>Here's some clean breakpoints.  Tested against uncontested block while not in no stance with myth buff not clicked.</p><p>The left values are whole tenths, the right values are the agility that generates that increase to uncontested block from a base value of zero.  For example, 1188 agility adds 1.5%.  With defensive, myth bonus, and aa's going along with block chance gear the number that you see your benefit display at will vary slightly due to not need an entire 1.0% to gain in value.</p><p style="padding-left: 30px;"><ol><li>930</li><li>943</li><li>957</li><li>971</li><li>986</li><li>1002</li><li>1019</li><li>1037</li><li>1055</li><li>1075</li><li>1095</li><li>1117</li><li>1139</li><li>1163</li><li>1188</li><li>1214</li><li>1242</li><li>1271</li><li>1302</li></ol></p><p>The math looks logarithmic, but I can't come up with an exact formula that gives the benefit at that agility number but gives the next lower benefit at agility -1.</p><p>The formula appears to work as follows:</p><p>Displayed number on tooltip(uncontested block chance) * (1+block chance) + (agility bonus), final value is either rounded or truncated to tenths digit, not positive yet.</p><p>Changing stances twice is helpful for getting clean numbers when changing agility (or myth buff).</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><em>- snip -</em> Uncontested avoidance is avoidance which is guaranteed, regardless of the mob's level.  Typically this takes the form of a flat % chance to avoid an incoming blow. <em>- snip -</em></p></blockquote><p><strong>Incorrect. Both contested and uncontested avoidance check against mob's level. </strong><em>- snip -</em><strong></strong></p></blockquote><p>You are wrong.</p><p><img src="http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/7456/eq2000052.jpg" /></p><p><img src="http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/410/48575367.png" /></p>

[Gungo]

<p>Level 1 fighters have wierd avoidance scores making them nearly unhittable. I use to run around timerous deep on a level 1 toon w about 0 crabs on me and they couldnt hit me. I would kill 1-2 crabs ding level 2 and get owned by the same crabs that couldnt hit me. I would take a level 1 taking a 95 epic x4  and not getting hit 10 out of 11 swings with a grain of salt since that is beyond buggy code.</p><p>Saying that uncontested avoidance was just stated to be straight % roll which is in direct conflict to original statements that uncontested avoidance is adjusted by npc level. I tend to think its a straight number now due to odd testing results.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p>I don't know what you're talking about, but I do know shields are uncontested avoidance no matter what level you or a mob is.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p>Updated to include Steelbadger's formula for how to calculate the block given by a shield and with the formula for uncontested block for brawlers.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p>Updated as agility should presumably no longer increase avoidance.  If there are any other important changes that occurred with velious, please point them out here.</p>