Sea Levels... Shouldn't they much lower? [Archive]

Vidden

02-26-2010, 05:31 AM

I thought about something today, and forgive me if this has been brought up before. Odus is no longer in Norrath due to the Erudites and their New Nexus. If a land mass that large was removed from the world, wouldn't the sea levels drop dramatically? I mean, wouldn't all of that sea water rush in to the place Odus used to be to fill the void where all that land used to be?

Garnaf

02-26-2010, 05:53 AM

Supposedly a large portion of the Ice Sheets that made up Everfrost and Velious melted, which actually caused sea levels to RISE in spite of an entire (small) continent missing.

TheSpin

02-26-2010, 05:56 AM

that's a good point, but there are some additional factors to consider.1. Pieces of the moon went into the sea, that would raise the sea level. Odus wasn't really big, and I don't know how much of Luclin ended up in the sea.2. Ice caps could have melted. People have mentioned that velious melted. It's been too long since I read any official lore response to believe anything that happened to velious, but it would definately have an impact.

ke'la

02-26-2010, 06:18 AM

one thing you need to know is that, for Old Antonica atleast, the Sea didn't rise as much as the Land sunk. There where huge amounts of underground tunnels below Antonica, all of wich collapsed in the rending.

Greyquill

02-26-2010, 06:24 AM

That's a good question. Displace a huge mass like Odus from the ocean and it should have created a massive whirlpool as the water rushed in to fill the void. Just how much is displaced would really depend on at what point the continent was sheered off from the crust of Norrath. We know the islands, as we see them hanging in Ultera, have an inverted mountain appearance. So they were clearly removed below the waterline. Who knows. Also, wouldn't having that much pressure removed from a continental plate also result in a springback of the crust causing an outward shockwave?

Xalmat

02-26-2010, 06:48 AM

Maybe the removal of Odus to Ultera partially caused the Rending? That all depends when the Rending and the Feedback occured too.When something as cataclysmic as the Rending occurs, you're lucky that whole continents don't get submerged in the process.

Cusashorn

02-26-2010, 10:40 AM

The lands across the whole game make no sense in many ways. Moors of Ykesha being the worst offender.I'm no geologist or physicist, but swamps can mainly only exist near or below sea level, right? The now can Innothule Swamp still exist, UNCHANGED BY ALTITUDE OR TEMPERATURE, nearly 2 miles above the sea level?The best way I can imagine Norrath right now is that the sea level is actually higher or lower in specific parts of the world, which would be impossible to maintain without gravitational shifts affecting just that area.

PeterJohn

02-26-2010, 10:59 AM

I am sorry, but some people here don't understand volumes as well as they should.How big do you think this "small continent" is? At a run speed of about 60%, I would estimate that I am running at a pace of 6 miles per hour. (Rough estimate based on visual feel as I run.) It takes me to approximately (I have not timed this) 3 minutes to run from one side of Sundering Fronteir to the other. That would be about 0.3 miles. The entire continent (based on the map) is about three times as long as this and twice as wide. Let's be generous and call this 1 mile long by 1 mile wide, since it makes the math easy. Depth of the continent? Again for easy math, I'll say one mile, but it is clearly less than this.So we are talking about a 1 cubic mile chunk of land being removed from the ocean... You really think this is going to make the sea levels drop significantly? We are looking at one tiny part of the world. Even if this were a VERY tiny planet, we are talking about millions of cubic miles of water. (The volume of the Atlantic Ocean for comparison is 76,300,000 cubic miles!) Taking 1 cubic mile out of this volume is NOT going to drop ocean levels to any noticeable difference!

Taurus_WD

02-26-2010, 03:42 PM

I don't think you can take travel times literal in this game, or any fantasy MMO that I can think of (off the top of my head). They talk about days involved in travelling for something that takes us a minute. Even if you do 1 hour = 1 day, it doesn't take you an hour to cross anything in this game. Nor would you be able to support any of the populations on Norrath if everything was to scale. Kerra Isle in SF for example would have food run out in a few months much less however long they've been stuck there.I'm sure there would have been an impact on the oceans, but it may not have been drastic, because still in the scale of a globe, this "continent" was relatively minor. It would have been like taking out Indonesia or New Zealand or somewhere in-between. At that point it's a matter of how deep you go into the ground. If you only take out a small chunk, you could potentially have very little impact on sea levels (maybe less than a foot). Either way you could expect big disruptions in the water for a period of time from the void being filled up, but after that the seas should calm down.

PeterJohn

02-26-2010, 04:09 PM

<cite>Acuza@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't think you can take travel times literal in this game, or any fantasy MMO that I can think of (off the top of my head). They talk about days involved in travelling for something that takes us a minute. Even if you do 1 hour = 1 day, it doesn't take you an hour to cross anything in this game. Nor would you be able to support any of the populations on Norrath if everything was to scale. Kerra Isle in SF for example would have food run out in a few months much less however long they've been stuck there.</blockquote>QFE. That's what happens when you look too deeply into a fantasy game world and worry about things like sea level dropping. But I still had fun doing the math <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

ke'la

02-26-2010, 04:40 PM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>The lands across the whole game make no sense in many ways. Moors of Ykesha being the worst offender.I'm no geologist or physicist, but swamps can mainly only exist near or below sea level, right? The now can Innothule Swamp still exist, UNCHANGED BY ALTITUDE OR TEMPERATURE, nearly 2 miles above the sea level?The best way I can imagine Norrath right now is that the sea level is actually higher or lower in specific parts of the world, which would be impossible to maintain without gravitational shifts affecting just that area.</blockquote>You don't need to be at or near sea level to have a "Swamp" all you need is a VERY high water table in a tropical zone.Yes, most swamps are at or below sea level because that is where they are easiest to form, however as lakes dryup do to lower water intact then outflow, they also form swamps and marshes. As do lakes that have no outflow and are silting up.

Meirril

02-26-2010, 08:44 PM

Ok, we can all agree that there should of been dramatic shifts in the water levels, right?Also the rending was suppose to have caused massive catastrophic sea storms that made sea travel impossible.And yet...at the beginning of EQ2 the only two remaining cities that were intact were Qeynos and Freeport. Both of these were pre-rending port towns and they remain port towns. Logically speaking, between the rending and the shattering both of these cities should of been wiped from the face of Norrath by massive tidel action. Tsunami the likes of which have never been seen on Earth.The main point here is any real life compairison is inherently flawed. So, don't try sticking your science into EQ2's art. Approach EQ2 from an artistic standpoint, not a scientific one.

Cusashorn

02-26-2010, 10:05 PM

<cite>PeterJohn wrote:</cite><blockquote>How big do you think this "small continent" is? At a run speed of about 60%, I would estimate that I am running at a pace of 6 miles per hour. (Rough estimate based on visual feel as I run.) It takes me to approximately (I have not timed this) 3 minutes to run from one side of Sundering Fronteir to the other. That would be about 0.3 miles. The entire continent (based on the map) is about three times as long as this and twice as wide. Let's be generous and call this 1 mile long by 1 mile wide, since it makes the math easy. Depth of the continent? Again for easy math, I'll say one mile, but it is clearly less than this.So we are talking about a 1 cubic mile chunk of land being removed from the ocean... You really think this is going to make the sea levels drop significantly? We are looking at one tiny part of the world. Even if this were a VERY tiny planet, we are talking about millions of cubic miles of water. (The volume of the Atlantic Ocean for comparison is 76,300,000 cubic miles!) Taking 1 cubic mile out of this volume is NOT going to drop ocean levels to any noticeable difference!</blockquote>As the others have said, lets leave out real world comparisons... But.. just for the sake of discussion, here's how you could probably figure out just how truely large the world is. I got the idea during my physics class last SpringTake yourself up to the Anchor of Bazzul in Moors. That's the highest reachable point in the zone. Jump off and time yourself how long it takes to hit the water below. If you assume that Norrath's gravity is the same as Earth's gravity, you can calculate a measure of distance you could apply to the rest of the game. I calculated that the AoB is located just a little more less than 1 mile above sea level. Something of around 4700 feet, if I remember right. It's been a year since I calculated it. If you take the Z axis as a means to measure distance, you can take the Z axis from AoB to the water level below, you could use that to measure distance through the X and Y axis.Now... take all your findings and multiply them by 50 to take into account how large Norrath REALLY is. Assume that every common NPC in the game represents 1000 more you don't see in the game.Heck, I'm pretty sure you can use the AoB measurement to figure out how much distance it would cover if Norrath was actually the size of Earth... or maybe figure out what scale Norrath actually is compared to Earth.

ke'la

02-27-2010, 02:09 AM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, we can all agree that there should of been dramatic shifts in the water levels, right?Also the rending was suppose to have caused massive catastrophic sea storms that made sea travel impossible.And yet...at the beginning of EQ2 the only two remaining cities that were intact were Qeynos and Freeport. Both of these were pre-rending port towns and they remain port towns. Logically speaking, between the rending and the shattering both of these cities should of been wiped from the face of Norrath by massive tidel action. Tsunami the likes of which have never been seen on Earth.The main point here is any real life compairison is inherently flawed. So, don't try sticking your science into EQ2's art. Approach EQ2 from an artistic standpoint, not a scientific one. </blockquote>First Freeport and Qeynos where not the only cities to survive the rending. All the current player cities more or less survived the Rending, as thier history predates them. With the possable exception of Gorowin. Also the Cities of Felwith, Rivervale, possably Halas, Ak'konon, and Kaladim also survived. I am also not sure if Maj'Dul's founding was pre or post rending but it does look fairly old.Second the rending took place in the Middle of Antonica, it was that part that fell into the oceans, as such the cities of Freeport and Qeynos where protected by the land that remained. It would be like if the Mississipi Vally suddenly dropped into the ocean, there would be huge changes to the waters around New York and San Fran, but most of the major damage would be between the Rockies and the Appalachans

Meirril

02-28-2010, 07:53 AM

<cite>kela wrote:</cite><blockquote> <cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, we can all agree that there should of been dramatic shifts in the water levels, right?Also the rending was suppose to have caused massive catastrophic sea storms that made sea travel impossible.And yet...at the beginning of EQ2 the only two remaining cities that were intact were Qeynos and Freeport. Both of these were pre-rending port towns and they remain port towns. Logically speaking, between the rending and the shattering both of these cities should of been wiped from the face of Norrath by massive tidel action. Tsunami the likes of which have never been seen on Earth.The main point here is any real life compairison is inherently flawed. So, don't try sticking your science into EQ2's art. Approach EQ2 from an artistic standpoint, not a scientific one. </blockquote>First Freeport and Qeynos where not the only cities to survive the rending. All the current player cities more or less survived the Rending, as thier history predates them. With the possable exception of Gorowin. Also the Cities of Felwith, Rivervale, possably Halas, Ak'konon, and Kaladim also survived. I am also not sure if Maj'Dul's founding was pre or post rending but it does look fairly old.Second the rending took place in the Middle of Antonica, it was that part that fell into the oceans, as such the cities of Freeport and Qeynos where protected by the land that remained. It would be like if the Mississipi Vally suddenly dropped into the ocean, there would be huge changes to the waters around New York and San Fran, but most of the major damage would be between the Rockies and the Appalachans</blockquote>Funny. At launch I remember there being 2 cities. Launch was the start of EQ2. When the game was created, Kelethin *did not exist*. Kelethin and the entire continent it is associated with were added later.Now if you want to argue that everything that the devs have put in the game since then, and the things they will put in the game in the future are in the game's history then you are technically correct. However, I seriously doubt that you can find any reliable lore on the current status of Thurggadin or Kael and I'm sure one of them will exist someday. We already know Halas is going to be added soon but we've got no reliable in-game source for this.Now riddle me this: if you have storms that have continued for decades that prevented all ocean travel plus significant chunks of a moon that impact into the planet's ocean (like that huge peice outside of Gorowin...I'm sure there are many other similar sized chunks that would of dropped in locations we'll never see) don't you think there would be some kind of tsunami that would wipe every coastal city from the face of Norrath? Even if that wasn't the case, don't you find it odd that cities that were on the waterfront before two cataclysmic events remain at water level afterward when so much of the land mass has changed otherwise? Especially considering that Highkeep is now suppose to be an island when it was a mountain pass before and it is between the two cities?!?No logical arguments please, there is no logic to this. Just story.

Writer Cal

02-28-2010, 10:22 AM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>Funny. At launch I remember there being 2 cities. Launch was the start of EQ2. When the game was created, Kelethin *did not exist*. Kelethin and the entire continent it is associated with were added later. Now if you want to argue that everything that the devs have put in the game since then, and the things they will put in the game in the future are in the game's history then you are technically correct. However, I seriously doubt that you can find any reliable lore on the current status of Thurggadin or Kael and I'm sure one of them will exist someday. We already know Halas is going to be added soon but we've got no reliable in-game source for this.</blockquote>Why does this make me think of people saying North and South America didn't exist until Europeans discovered them? "Did not exist." "Technically correct."We didn't have in-game lore for Kunark in EQ1 at launch, but that doesn't mean it didn't exist. It just means it was undiscovered as far as most people knew.

Ahlana

02-28-2010, 10:50 AM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>No logical arguments please, there is no logic to this. Just story.</blockquote>Alright no logic.. Each side had Mages that produced protective shielding that prevented the destruction of the cities from the tsunamis. Case closed

Cusashorn

02-28-2010, 02:23 PM

<cite>kela wrote:</cite><blockquote>First Freeport and Qeynos where not the only cities to survive the rending. All the current player cities more or less survived the Rending, as thier history predates them. With the possable exception of Gorowin. Also the Cities of Felwith, Rivervale, possably Halas, Ak'konon, and Kaladim also survived. I am also not sure if Maj'Dul's founding was pre or post rending but it does look fairly old.Second the rending took place in the Middle of Antonica, it was that part that fell into the oceans, as such the cities of Freeport and Qeynos where protected by the land that remained. It would be like if the Mississipi Vally suddenly dropped into the ocean, there would be huge changes to the waters around New York and San Fran, but most of the major damage would be between the Rockies and the Appalachans</blockquote>The Gods willed the survival of Freeport and Qeynos. The other cities would come under their own conflicts and have to be abandoned due to war, internal strife, the cataclysms, or invasions. Maj'Dul was built Post-time split, but it's not stated if it was founded before or after the Rending.It didn't just take place in Antonica either. It affected the Planes themselves, and only affected Antonica the most. Everywhere else got hit and took damage from it, but most other places healed to an extent. Remember, the gnomes had to evacuate Ak'Anon because of the Rending.

ke'la

02-28-2010, 04:49 PM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kela wrote:</cite><blockquote> <cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, we can all agree that there should of been dramatic shifts in the water levels, right?Also the rending was suppose to have caused massive catastrophic sea storms that made sea travel impossible.And yet...at the beginning of EQ2 the only two remaining cities that were intact were Qeynos and Freeport. Both of these were pre-rending port towns and they remain port towns. Logically speaking, between the rending and the shattering both of these cities should of been wiped from the face of Norrath by massive tidel action. Tsunami the likes of which have never been seen on Earth.The main point here is any real life compairison is inherently flawed. So, don't try sticking your science into EQ2's art. Approach EQ2 from an artistic standpoint, not a scientific one. </blockquote>First Freeport and Qeynos where not the only cities to survive the rending. All the current player cities more or less survived the Rending, as thier history predates them. With the possable exception of Gorowin. Also the Cities of Felwith, Rivervale, possably Halas, Ak'konon, and Kaladim also survived. I am also not sure if Maj'Dul's founding was pre or post rending but it does look fairly old.Second the rending took place in the Middle of Antonica, it was that part that fell into the oceans, as such the cities of Freeport and Qeynos where protected by the land that remained. It would be like if the Mississipi Vally suddenly dropped into the ocean, there would be huge changes to the waters around New York and San Fran, but most of the major damage would be between the Rockies and the Appalachans</blockquote>Funny. At launch I remember there being 2 cities. Launch was the start of EQ2. When the game was created, Kelethin *did not exist*. Kelethin and the entire continent it is associated with were added later.Um, like another poster said, North and South America exsisted befor the European's "discovered" it for the 3rd or 4th time. If you read the history of the last 500 years in Kelethin, you will find multiple battles and times when the city nearly burnt to the ground, but it was rebuilt and still survived, though now under the control of the Fae instead of the Wood Elves. New Tunaria(Felwith) changed its name, and the citizens went nuts, but they went though both cataclisms relitivly unscathed. You also forgot that Rivervale did infact also survive both cataclisms, what it has barly survived is the void invasion, and was even exessable to players at launch. Just because a city fell to some other force does not mean the city structures or the city itself did not survive the Cataclisms, they just fell to other forces.Now if you want to argue that everything that the devs have put in the game since then, and the things they will put in the game in the future are in the game's history then you are technically correct. However, I seriously doubt that you can find any reliable lore on the current status of Thurggadin or Kael and I'm sure one of them will exist someday. We already know Halas is going to be added soon but we've got no reliable in-game source for this.Yes, some of the stuff the devs will put in, will have exsisted befor we got there, some of it will be relitivly new, Like Gorowin. Also we do know that Halas fell to something OTHER then the Cataclisms, we just don't know for sure what that is yet, nor when that happened.Now riddle me this: if you have storms that have continued for decades that prevented all ocean travel plus significant chunks of a moon that impact into the planet's ocean (like that huge peice outside of Gorowin...I'm sure there are many other similar sized chunks that would of dropped in locations we'll never see) don't you think there would be some kind of tsunami that would wipe every coastal city from the face of Norrath?There are ruins of older parts of the cities in both Freeport, and Qeynos caused by the Rending, the cities where rebuilt.Even if that wasn't the case, don't you find it odd that cities that were on the waterfront before two cataclysmic events remain at water level afterward when so much of the land mass has changed otherwise?Not when the majority of the land changes(what was once Antonica) was caused by it falling into the 100s of miles of caverns under it.Especially considering that Highkeep is now suppose to be an island when it was a mountain pass before and it is between the two cities?!?Again there where HUGE networks of tunnels and caverns under Antonica(EQ1's version) nearly every single one collapsed, that is why so many area's are underwater. It was not because the Water rose, it was because the land went down.No logical arguments please, there is no logic to this. Just story.</blockquote>Lastly, there is also lore in game that had many peoples of many races recieve calls to head to Qeynos/Freeport right befor the Shattering(moon going boom) it has been widely speculated that those calls where from the Gods and those cities where protected buy the gods from major damage as a result of the Moon Rocks hitting Norath. BTW, that only happened about 10 years or so befor EQ2 started.

Meirril

03-01-2010, 12:04 AM

<cite>Daenee@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>Funny. At launch I remember there being 2 cities. Launch was the start of EQ2. When the game was created, Kelethin *did not exist*. Kelethin and the entire continent it is associated with were added later. Now if you want to argue that everything that the devs have put in the game since then, and the things they will put in the game in the future are in the game's history then you are technically correct. However, I seriously doubt that you can find any reliable lore on the current status of Thurggadin or Kael and I'm sure one of them will exist someday. We already know Halas is going to be added soon but we've got no reliable in-game source for this.</blockquote>Why does this make me think of people saying North and South America didn't exist until Europeans discovered them? "Did not exist." "Technically correct."We didn't have in-game lore for Kunark in EQ1 at launch, but that doesn't mean it didn't exist. It just means it was undiscovered as far as most people knew.</blockquote>We also don't have any lore for Thellosia, the Realm of Discord, or most everything else in EQ1 that happened after the time split. Do we say these exist until proven otherwise?We don't have any lore of what happened to Skyshrine, Kael Drakal, the Temple of Veeshan, Thurggadin, the Tower of Frozen Shadow, Siren's Grotto, Icewall Keep, Crystal Caverns, or even Western Wastes and the Great Divide. We do have indications that Velious itself exists...do we say these all remain in game until proven otherwise?We've got evidence of pink unicorns. Do we say there is a place where they run free in the game until proven otherwise? We've got evidence of Gold Nightbloods, do we say they exist as monsters we can fight until proven otherwise?How far can you streach this line of argument until it isn't credible anymore?

Zabjade

03-01-2010, 01:10 AM

Also the lands that fell in more then likely, displaced part of a partiicular Lore worthy underground ocean (Who's name slips my mind but the Dwarf in the Peacoc k club talks about it.). Also we have no idea if there is a new continent that has raised from the ocean floor beyond the Talysra's Paw chain, for all we know par of Odus's coastline might still be there as well.

Lera

03-01-2010, 01:41 AM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Daenee@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>Funny. At launch I remember there being 2 cities. Launch was the start of EQ2. When the game was created, Kelethin *did not exist*. Kelethin and the entire continent it is associated with were added later. Now if you want to argue that everything that the devs have put in the game since then, and the things they will put in the game in the future are in the game's history then you are technically correct. However, I seriously doubt that you can find any reliable lore on the current status of Thurggadin or Kael and I'm sure one of them will exist someday. We already know Halas is going to be added soon but we've got no reliable in-game source for this.</blockquote>Why does this make me think of people saying North and South America didn't exist until Europeans discovered them? "Did not exist." "Technically correct."We didn't have in-game lore for Kunark in EQ1 at launch, but that doesn't mean it didn't exist. It just means it was undiscovered as far as most people knew.</blockquote>We also don't have any lore for Thellosia, the Realm of Discord, or most everything else in EQ1 that happened after the time split. Do we say these exist until proven otherwise?We don't have any lore of what happened to Skyshrine, Kael Drakal, the Temple of Veeshan, Thurggadin, the Tower of Frozen Shadow, Siren's Grotto, Icewall Keep, Crystal Caverns, or even Western Wastes and the Great Divide. We do have indications that Velious itself exists...do we say these all remain in game until proven otherwise?We've got evidence of pink unicorns. Do we say there is a place where they run free in the game until proven otherwise? We've got evidence of Gold Nightbloods, do we say they exist as monsters we can fight until proven otherwise?How far can you streach this line of argument until it isn't credible anymore?</blockquote>So where did Kelethin go between EQ1 and EQ2? No, it didn't exist in game since the devs hadn't created it for EQ2 yet, but in-character, Kelethin was there all along and we didn't know about it. Or did it vanish from Norrath at the Rending, and magically reappear recently?I didn't play EQ1, so I have no idea what Thellosia or those other places are, but I'd say that those places were either destroyed in the Rending, or they still exist out there somewhere undiscovered. We don't know, and we won't know until SOE decides to tell us one way or the other.Nobody can get to Frostfell Wonderland now, either - does that mean it no longer exists, or we just can't get to it because the magic wardrobes have been taken away? Or the Bar of Brell? Or any number of zones which were used for one event.So your question "do we say these all remain in game until proven otherwise" - has two answers. No, these places are not in the game. Yes, these places are still (or might still be) in Norrath.

Writer Cal

03-01-2010, 01:49 AM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Daenee@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>Funny. At launch I remember there being 2 cities. Launch was the start of EQ2. When the game was created, Kelethin *did not exist*. Kelethin and the entire continent it is associated with were added later. Now if you want to argue that everything that the devs have put in the game since then, and the things they will put in the game in the future are in the game's history then you are technically correct. However, I seriously doubt that you can find any reliable lore on the current status of Thurggadin or Kael and I'm sure one of them will exist someday. We already know Halas is going to be added soon but we've got no reliable in-game source for this.</blockquote>Why does this make me think of people saying North and South America didn't exist until Europeans discovered them? "Did not exist." "Technically correct."We didn't have in-game lore for Kunark in EQ1 at launch, but that doesn't mean it didn't exist. It just means it was undiscovered as far as most people knew.</blockquote>We also don't have any lore for Thellosia, the Realm of Discord, or most everything else in EQ1 that happened after the time split. Do we say these exist until proven otherwise?We don't have any lore of what happened to Skyshrine, Kael Drakal, the Temple of Veeshan, Thurggadin, the Tower of Frozen Shadow, Siren's Grotto, Icewall Keep, Crystal Caverns, or even Western Wastes and the Great Divide. We do have indications that Velious itself exists...do we say these all remain in game until proven otherwise?We've got evidence of pink unicorns. Do we say there is a place where they run free in the game until proven otherwise? We've got evidence of Gold Nightbloods, do we say they exist as monsters we can fight until proven otherwise?How far can you streach this line of argument until it isn't credible anymore?</blockquote>They could be. They could not be. We do not say they exist or don't exist. We admit that, until there is proof one way or the other, we don't know. Just because there's no proof of something yet doesn't mean it does not exist. Things don't just come into existence once someone discovers them. If Velious still exists in EQ2, we don't know about it. Velious could exist. It could be totally gone. Unless someone sails out where it was and takes a peek right now, we don't know. It means knowledge of it doesn't exist. Not that it does not exist. Unless your definition of existing and mine are different.And how did you leap from actual in-game lore that states that Kelethin did exist before we rediscovered it to fluff things like pink unicorns?

Xdatinelia

03-01-2010, 02:35 AM

<cite>Lera@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>So your question "do we say these all remain in game until proven otherwise" - has two answers. No, these places are not in the game. Yes, these places are still (or might still be) in Norrath.</blockquote>I've got a cat for you too.

Meirril

03-01-2010, 08:10 AM

<cite>Daenee@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Daenee@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>Funny. At launch I remember there being 2 cities. Launch was the start of EQ2. When the game was created, Kelethin *did not exist*. Kelethin and the entire continent it is associated with were added later. Now if you want to argue that everything that the devs have put in the game since then, and the things they will put in the game in the future are in the game's history then you are technically correct. However, I seriously doubt that you can find any reliable lore on the current status of Thurggadin or Kael and I'm sure one of them will exist someday. We already know Halas is going to be added soon but we've got no reliable in-game source for this.</blockquote>Why does this make me think of people saying North and South America didn't exist until Europeans discovered them? "Did not exist." "Technically correct."We didn't have in-game lore for Kunark in EQ1 at launch, but that doesn't mean it didn't exist. It just means it was undiscovered as far as most people knew.</blockquote>We also don't have any lore for Thellosia, the Realm of Discord, or most everything else in EQ1 that happened after the time split. Do we say these exist until proven otherwise?We don't have any lore of what happened to Skyshrine, Kael Drakal, the Temple of Veeshan, Thurggadin, the Tower of Frozen Shadow, Siren's Grotto, Icewall Keep, Crystal Caverns, or even Western Wastes and the Great Divide. We do have indications that Velious itself exists...do we say these all remain in game until proven otherwise?We've got evidence of pink unicorns. Do we say there is a place where they run free in the game until proven otherwise? We've got evidence of Gold Nightbloods, do we say they exist as monsters we can fight until proven otherwise?How far can you streach this line of argument until it isn't credible anymore?</blockquote>They could be. They could not be. We do not say they exist or don't exist. We admit that, until there is proof one way or the other, we don't know. Just because there's no proof of something yet doesn't mean it does not exist. Things don't just come into existence once someone discovers them. If Velious still exists in EQ2, we don't know about it. Velious could exist. It could be totally gone. Unless someone sails out where it was and takes a peek right now, we don't know. It means knowledge of it doesn't exist. Not that it does not exist. Unless your definition of existing and mine are different.And how did you leap from actual in-game lore that states that Kelethin did exist before we rediscovered it to fluff things like pink unicorns?</blockquote>Like I said I'm streaching the argument that "everything exists until proven not to". Pink unicorns got a big splash here on the forums a while back. So with so much talk about it and no dev denial (indeed, some toung in cheak dev approval) it must exist in game but be undiscovered, right?As for existance, once it has been placed into game either directly, or through reference from an in-game source, it exists. Having knowledge of it makes it exist. Until that happens it doesn't exist because the devs could of changed their minds and altered it fundamentally. Only once it makes the final cut and gets pushed to the live game does it truely exist.If you look at some of the dev's past talks about things that influenced the Lore of the game you'll here mention of "beta lore". Lore that was created for content in the beta of EQ2 but was scrapped before EQ2 went live and has slowly crept back into the game since then. So, do you want to argue that the zone "Marr's Bastion" exists because some of the lore that was developed for it is in the game? I personally feel that is going way too far. Much like trying to push physics and the ramifications of both the rending and shattering into EQ2 goes too far as well. This is a story first and foremost. Storybook logic dictates that Qeynos and Freeport have to be port cities. Nevermind that if they had been next to the water they should of been scrubbed from the face of Norrath by massive tidel actions. Or if the caves had been that massive...we should have inland cities. The story requires it to work out the way it did, so that is the way it worked out.Most stories require a suspention of disbelief. In Star Wars there is no way a whole company of elite soldiers would miss 4 fleeing rebels running across an open hanger or even a lone Han Solo fleeing down a straight and narrow corridor. Why does it happen? Because the story needs this to happen.

steelbadger

03-01-2010, 08:22 AM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Daenee@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>Funny. At launch I remember there being 2 cities. Launch was the start of EQ2. When the game was created, Kelethin *did not exist*. Kelethin and the entire continent it is associated with were added later. Now if you want to argue that everything that the devs have put in the game since then, and the things they will put in the game in the future are in the game's history then you are technically correct. However, I seriously doubt that you can find any reliable lore on the current status of Thurggadin or Kael and I'm sure one of them will exist someday. We already know Halas is going to be added soon but we've got no reliable in-game source for this.</blockquote>Why does this make me think of people saying North and South America didn't exist until Europeans discovered them? "Did not exist." "Technically correct."We didn't have in-game lore for Kunark in EQ1 at launch, but that doesn't mean it didn't exist. It just means it was undiscovered as far as most people knew.</blockquote>We also don't have any lore for Thellosia, the Realm of Discord, or most everything else in EQ1 that happened after the time split. Do we say these exist until proven otherwise?We don't have any lore of what happened to Skyshrine, Kael Drakal, the Temple of Veeshan, Thurggadin, the Tower of Frozen Shadow, Siren's Grotto, Icewall Keep, Crystal Caverns, or even Western Wastes and the Great Divide. We do have indications that Velious itself exists...do we say these all remain in game until proven otherwise?We've got evidence of pink unicorns. Do we say there is a place where they run free in the game until proven otherwise? We've got evidence of Gold Nightbloods, do we say they exist as monsters we can fight until proven otherwise?How far can you streach this line of argument until it isn't credible anymore?</blockquote>All expansion packs provide retro-active lore.As soon as devs add content which references events in a "new" location going back for hundreds of years it means that that "new" location has existed for hundreds of years.The act of observing changes that which is being observed, if we take the example of the Americas. Before they were (re)discovered there was no reason to believe they existed. There was similarly, however, now real evidence to disprove their existance. The existance of the Americas was 'uncertain' (assuming we take only mainstream europeans as our sourse of knowledge, obviously natives of the americas were fairly sure of it's existance at the time). However, as soon as the americas were (re)discovered it was assumed that they have always existed. There are one or two philosophical problems with this point of view (Hume: Repeated Coincidence does not equal Causation, just because other landmasses that exist now have always existed, within a human frame of reference, it does not mean that all landmasses we encounter in the future have always existed within that same frame of reference. It's a good thing to think about but generally gets in the way of logical discourse which, by it's very nature, has to presuppose such causal similarities) but we're going to stick to a more simplified world view whereby things that happen stay happened and the present cannot alter the past.If we assume, as would be reasonable, that Norrath follows similar causal and logical rules to our own Earth we must also assume that the present in Norrath cannot directly alter the past. There are one or two problems with this, for example divine intervention is a problem in Norrath while being rather less so on Earth. However, within normal, non magical, non divine, methods and events we can assume that the present does not alter the past. (Again a dive off into philosophy: Yes the present can alter the perspective we have on the past and dependant on your views on reality this may be sufficient to argue that the present does indeed alter the past, if for example the universe exists nowhere but within our own minds. This is being glossed over as, once again, for normal logical discourse to hold, the Universe must be assumed to exist independantly of perception). This therefore leads us to the assumption that any landmass discovered on Norrath through normal means must have always existed, within the frame of reference of the game. We must remember that Lore is in world information. It is not in game information. From the point of view of the player suspension of reality rears it's ugly head. An MMO isn't a world. It is a crude representation of a world, the world can be thought of as having a purely conceptual existance as a shared idea in the minds of players.That said, however, this argument runs into rocky ground with Odus in Ultera. Ultera is a different place of existance... is it co-temporal with Norrath? Can we travel to any time on Ultera, or are we confined to the "now"? Additionally, though the temporal systems in Norrath and Ultera seem to match up rather closely; in terms of rate of progression and consistency they seem to be idential (Time travels at the same speed on Odus as on Norrath; if we leave Norrath to enter Odus, wander around for 3 hours then return to Norrath we return to Norrath 3 hours after we left) but the relative positions on their timelines is not necessarily the same. By this I mean that Odus could, when it blasted itsself into Ultera, have blasted itsself into Ultera 100 years ago. It could be that Odus actually exists in two locations/times. A 'present' Odus somewhere on Norrath where the Erudites are working towords their Grand Farisian Nexus and a 'Future' Odus where we are currently adventuring....I think I've probably harped on too long.Short Point: There are three, not two, states of existance from the perspective of a non Omniscient being. Yes, no, maybe. There's an infinite number of things that fall into the maybe category but that doesn't mean they actually exist. Don't confuse knowledge limitations with reality limitations.The lore is contained within a frame of reference that is the world of Norrath. Not the game of EQ2. Try not to confuse the two.

Meirril

03-01-2010, 08:29 AM

<cite>Lera@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Daenee@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>Funny. At launch I remember there being 2 cities. Launch was the start of EQ2. When the game was created, Kelethin *did not exist*. Kelethin and the entire continent it is associated with were added later. Now if you want to argue that everything that the devs have put in the game since then, and the things they will put in the game in the future are in the game's history then you are technically correct. However, I seriously doubt that you can find any reliable lore on the current status of Thurggadin or Kael and I'm sure one of them will exist someday. We already know Halas is going to be added soon but we've got no reliable in-game source for this.</blockquote>Why does this make me think of people saying North and South America didn't exist until Europeans discovered them? "Did not exist." "Technically correct."We didn't have in-game lore for Kunark in EQ1 at launch, but that doesn't mean it didn't exist. It just means it was undiscovered as far as most people knew.</blockquote>We also don't have any lore for Thellosia, the Realm of Discord, or most everything else in EQ1 that happened after the time split. Do we say these exist until proven otherwise?We don't have any lore of what happened to Skyshrine, Kael Drakal, the Temple of Veeshan, Thurggadin, the Tower of Frozen Shadow, Siren's Grotto, Icewall Keep, Crystal Caverns, or even Western Wastes and the Great Divide. We do have indications that Velious itself exists...do we say these all remain in game until proven otherwise?We've got evidence of pink unicorns. Do we say there is a place where they run free in the game until proven otherwise? We've got evidence of Gold Nightbloods, do we say they exist as monsters we can fight until proven otherwise?How far can you streach this line of argument until it isn't credible anymore?</blockquote>So where did Kelethin go between EQ1 and EQ2? No, it didn't exist in game since the devs hadn't created it for EQ2 yet, but in-character, Kelethin was there all along and we didn't know about it. Or did it vanish from Norrath at the Rending, and magically reappear recently?I didn't play EQ1, so I have no idea what Thellosia or those other places are, but I'd say that those places were either destroyed in the Rending, or they still exist out there somewhere undiscovered. We don't know, and we won't know until SOE decides to tell us one way or the other.Nobody can get to Frostfell Wonderland now, either - does that mean it no longer exists, or we just can't get to it because the magic wardrobes have been taken away? Or the Bar of Brell? Or any number of zones which were used for one event.So your question "do we say these all remain in game until proven otherwise" - has two answers. No, these places are not in the game. Yes, these places are still (or might still be) in Norrath.</blockquote>Well, imagine for a minuite that the devs changed their minds slightly and when Echoes of Fadewyr was released Kaladim was still heald by the dwarves, Kelethin and Felwith had fallen to the Crushbone Orcs and the Dark Reflection was subverted and now serves Melodrath the Iron Lich! The Dwarves of Kaladim have taken in the survivors from the purges in Ak'anon which has now been renamed Klan'anon in honor of its new masters. The Dwarves have also taken in refugees from Felwith and Kelethin.Lesser Faydark has become a twisted place. Many elves that flead the burning cities in the Greater Faydark found shelter with the brownies and Fairies in this forst, until Mayong Mistmoor decided to welcome them into his brood. Now the surviving brownies and Fairies hide away in small enclaves while twisted mockeries of their former comrads wander the woods freely. By day elvin bandits harass travelers, but by night werewolves and other mosters prowl the forest. Equestrial strides the land feeding off the hate and dispair growing ever more powerful.In these dire times Kaladim receives word that the human cities of Qeynos and Freeport not only survived the rending and shattering, but gave shelter to many of its native sons who wish to return and reclaim their homeland. Adventurers find a warm welcome in the halls of the mountain lord.This could of been Kelething between EQ1 and EQ2 just as much as the Kelethin we did get when it was released into game. Until it goes into game, you can't say anything about it. So until it does, your safest course of action is to say it doesn't exist.And as for the Realm of Discord...I honestly hope we never, never, never visit that place in EQ2. It was misserably executed in EQ1 and even if the execution here was better, it was a badly written story that honestly didn't have any place in EQ1.

ke'la

03-01-2010, 02:04 PM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lera@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>{snipped Cause quote Pyramids break the forum}</blockquote>Well, imagine for a minuite that the devs changed their minds slightly and when Echoes of Fadewyr was released Kaladim was still heald by the dwarves, Kelethin and Felwith had fallen to the Crushbone Orcs and the Dark Reflection was subverted and now serves Melodrath the Iron Lich! The Dwarves of Kaladim have taken in the survivors from the purges in Ak'anon which has now been renamed Klan'anon in honor of its new masters. The Dwarves have also taken in refugees from Felwith and Kelethin.Lesser Faydark has become a twisted place. Many elves that flead the burning cities in the Greater Faydark found shelter with the brownies and Fairies in this forst, until Mayong Mistmoor decided to welcome them into his brood. Now the surviving brownies and Fairies hide away in small enclaves while twisted mockeries of their former comrads wander the woods freely. By day elvin bandits harass travelers, but by night werewolves and other mosters prowl the forest. Equestrial strides the land feeding off the hate and dispair growing ever more powerful.In these dire times Kaladim receives word that the human cities of Qeynos and Freeport not only survived the rending and shattering, but gave shelter to many of its native sons who wish to return and reclaim their homeland. Adventurers find a warm welcome in the halls of the mountain lord.This could of been Kelething between EQ1 and EQ2 just as much as the Kelethin we did get when it was released into game. Until it goes into game, you can't say anything about it. So until it does, your safest course of action is to say it doesn't exist.And as for the Realm of Discord...I honestly hope we never, never, never visit that place in EQ2. It was misserably executed in EQ1 and even if the execution here was better, it was a badly written story that honestly didn't have any place in EQ1.</blockquote>Accually again it is SAFEST to say I don't know, until we know for certain. There are a number of referances to Faydwar prior to it becoming accessable again, going back to launch. Once it is found again, then its history becomes part of the overall history. It doesn't matter what MIGHT of happened, what matters is what DID happen. Faydwar exsisted from the timesplit in EQ1 all the way until it was found by the Far Seas Company in Echo's of Faydwar. There is a history that tells us everything that went on(or atleast most of it) from the point of the EQ1 timesplit, until present day. Therefor it exsisted durring that period. Same for Kunark, and Odus. Oh, and if you don't believe that Odus has been there going back to the timesplit, all you have to do is look at those Ultirian Spires, that where placed there by the people of Odus durring the Timesplit, and where wrecked by the Shaddering, Rebuilt for access to the Overrelm and perfected for access to Odus itself.BTW, The lore for EQ2 is EVERYTHING prior to the invasion of the Plane of Time is EQ2 Canon, so if it exsisted befor that event, then it exists in EQ2, possably very changed from EQ1 but it is still there. Everthing AFTER that point in time, is up to the devs to deside.

Urgol

03-01-2010, 04:17 PM

This is actually why I was liking the previous ingame map more. It left everything outside the playable zones as blackened, unexplored territory, creating the feel that the playable zones were but a fraction of the actual land mass. Now they have rounded them with actual island shapes and imprinted them on the global map so you actually feel how small the world is.

Uumuuanu

03-02-2010, 01:45 PM

<cite>PeterJohn wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am sorry, but some people here don't understand volumes as well as they should.How big do you think this "small continent" is? At a run speed of about 60%, I would estimate that I am running at a pace of 6 miles per hour. (Rough estimate based on visual feel as I run.) It takes me to approximately (I have not timed this) 3 minutes to run from one side of Sundering Fronteir to the other. That would be about 0.3 miles. The entire continent (based on the map) is about three times as long as this and twice as wide. Let's be generous and call this 1 mile long by 1 mile wide, since it makes the math easy. Depth of the continent? Again for easy math, I'll say one mile, but it is clearly less than this.So we are talking about a 1 cubic mile chunk of land being removed from the ocean... You really think this is going to make the sea levels drop significantly? We are looking at one tiny part of the world. Even if this were a VERY tiny planet, we are talking about millions of cubic miles of water. (The volume of the Atlantic Ocean for comparison is 76,300,000 cubic miles!) Taking 1 cubic mile out of this volume is NOT going to drop ocean levels to any noticeable difference!</blockquote>You are also not taking into account the time calculation difference. your 3 minutes of Terran time = an hour of Norrath time. Based on that, Odus would be over 6 miles across. Howver your 6mph calculation is by far wrong as well. Considering that I run at 75% speed and a direct run from one end of stonebrunt to the other is roughly the more than 3 minutes (one hour Norrath) not to mention the fact that I am outrunning animals that would easily run more then 20mph (tigers, panters(fearstalkers), etc). So in fact if I am running at 20+ mph, then the calculation of .3 miles is more then 60 times less then the true size.If you want to calculate it properly, you need to look at the min and max location which is in meters. Since the min is 0 and the max in many locations if over 4000, you are talking about a 4km minimum size. Also if you look at the total size lost, you must look at the maximum depth of the hole to the maximum height of SF, you are talking more then 6km.Even given the 4km deep are of the hole, that gives you a 4-5km diameter pillar 4km deep or nearly 200 cubic km of material removed (for those that dont remember geometery its PI x radius (4km) squared x height (4km). Now if you want to understand the impact of that you calculate that into area. Lets say 1/3 meter deep. That would cover and area 600,000,000,000 square meters or roughly 600,000 square km.So realistically you are dropping the ocean about 1ft over 600,000 Sq KM, which wouldnt be that much considering the size of the planet size *we only know about the existing continents, there could be an entire other side of the planet we dont know about). Now you factor in that Velious would have up to 1 km deep ice that supposedly meted and the ocean would in fact rise.