Expert spells T9 are worse than T8 Masters

[Verrie77]

<p>Why is it that Expert spells are a downgrade to so many spells..even if its one tier above. Is it even any use to upgrade...this is so wrong..can you pls fix this SOE ?</p>

[Dareena]

<p>I've been told that this discussion came up during Beta.  This discussion has also popped up on the various message boards here.</p><p>The long and short of it is that T9 Expert buffs seem to be a hair under the strength of T8 Masters.  However for single target spells, the T9 Experts seem to be a hair over the strength of T8 Masters.</p><p>Right now it's really looking goofy because our T8 raid armor and Mythicals are only increasing our T8 abilities.  As a result, the T8 abilities for many classes are inherently superior until you do the Epic Repercussions conversion quest.  Once completed, it'll allow your Mythical to affect T9 abilities.  Once this happens, things should start to even out.</p>

[Malacha]

<p>I agree that this is possibly the worst thing about this expansion (of which I'm very disappointed in, but still playing for hopes that it will get better). There are quite a few T8 masters that are literally better than a T9 Expert, WITHOUT ANY ADDITIONAL BONUSES FROM GEAR.</p><p>An example is the defiler spell "Voice of the Ancestors". The T8 Master version gives 131 levels of curing to stun, stifle, etc. while the T9 Expert version gives 130. Why did I even waste my rare on that? All the other Experts I've gotten so far have been literally marginally better (<10 hps improvement on healing, when it does improve) that as a healer, there really isn't much point to upgrading until the T9 masters come.</p><p>In past expansions, Experts of the new tier have always been slightly (but notably) better than masters of the previous tier. It gives us a sense of progression, of growing bigger and stronger. Not leveling 10 times to use the same spells I've been using for the last 2 1/4 years. Why the sudden change?</p><p>There are alot of changes this expansion that make me wonder what is going through the devs minds. Not only the Expert situation, but why suddenly (and thoroughly) nerf every means of in-combat regen that we have? Why suddenly are we able to level ridiculously fast, against mobs that a conjurer can tank (easily!), in zones that appear massive, but really aren't due to being chopped up into little pieces. Why are we "too powerful" that some mythicals need a nerf, then people are handed them on a silver platter in a silly quest that takes less than a day to complete?</p><p>UGH, I'm rambling now. HONESTLY, guys, Experts of the next tier should be NOTICEABLY (though only slightly) better than Masters of the previous tier. Not 2 or 3 points better, something that makes me want to go out and harvest that rare for it, that makes me want to bother to replace the old version for the new. It isn't a new concept, its why people want level increases, to become better, not to be exactly the same as they were 10 levels ago, with little to show for it except more mobs that won't agro them.</p>

[Banditman]

<p>Go back through the tiers, it's been like this for a long, long time.  Why does everyone always act surprised?</p>

[Ldarax]

<p>Some monk T9 experts are even worse then T8 Experts. made a post about it in the monk forum.</p>

[bks6721]

<p>kinda like saying a new Camaro SHOULD be faster than a 2yr old Corvette simply because its newer.  T9 Adept 3's should be an T8 upgrade to ADEPT 3's..    It's been this way for a LONG time.</p><p>I'd say it says alot about the player base in general when Adept 3's just aren't good enough for them any more.   Masters are available for FREE now, what more can you demand?</p>

[Obadiah]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Go back through the tiers, it's been like this for a long, long time.  Why does everyone always act surprised?</p></blockquote><p>In T8, the only Experts that were better than T7 Masters for me were the Berserk buffs - a 1 DPS/Haste difference on a buff of 32. Other than that, every single buff, damage spell, CA, taunt, etc. was slightly better as a T8 Expert than a T7 Master.</p><p>In T9, every single Expert I have seen thus far is worse than the T8 Master. Every buff, every damage spell, CA, taunt, etc. is slightly worse as a T9 Expert than a T8 Master.</p><p>That is a significant shift.</p><p>It's good and bad. Stinks that I can't just upgrade everything right away, but it's nice that I don't have to worry about getting any more Expert downgrades until my current Master is done "cooking". That sort of thing should help the rares market stay relatively cool, although it doesn't seem to have done so yet.</p>

[Banditman]

<p><cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Go back through the tiers, it's been like this for a long, long time.  Why does everyone always act surprised?</p></blockquote><p>In T8, the only Experts that were better than T7 Masters for me were the Berserk buffs - a 1 DPS/Haste difference on a buff of 32. Other than that, every single buff, damage spell, CA, taunt, etc. was slightly better as a T8 Expert than a T7 Master.</p><p>In T9, every single Expert I have seen thus far is worse than the T8 Master. Every buff, every damage spell, CA, taunt, etc. is slightly worse as a T9 Expert than a T8 Master.</p><p>That is a significant shift.</p><p>It's good and bad. Stinks that I can't just upgrade everything right away, but it's nice that I don't have to worry about getting any more Expert downgrades until my current Master is done "cooking". That sort of thing should help the rares market stay relatively cool, although it doesn't seem to have done so yet.</p></blockquote><p>Go examine the spells from something OTHER than your Berserker (from a Mage for instance) and you'll see that the upgrade path is still what it has always been.  The difference is there are so many items and effects altering what you see that you can't really tell what is an upgrade and what isn't an upgrade.</p><p>I am nearly 100% sure that what you're seeing is the interaction of some focus effect not applying to a T9 that does apply to a T8.  Certainly, it makes for a very confusing path for a lot of people.</p>

[Lethe5683]

<p><span style="color: #993366;">Ok, so it sounds like some CAs/Spells for some classes are <em>slightly</em> worse as a T9 Expert than they are as a T8 Master.  Now it's really not a big deal and plenty of people will still buy the T9 Experts because they were either not fully mastered in T8 or are playing a new character.  Why is this a big deal?  If they are worse than the Masters then just keep your T8 Masters instead of "upgrading" to T9 Experts.  Really the only thing I see that this could be trouble for is dust for poisons being a bit shorter supply than normal.</span></p>

[bluefish]

<p><cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Go back through the tiers, it's been like this for a long, long time.  Why does everyone always act surprised?</p></blockquote><p>In T8, the only Experts that were better than T7 Masters for me were the Berserk buffs - a 1 DPS/Haste difference on a buff of 32. Other than that, every single buff, damage spell, CA, taunt, etc. was slightly better as a T8 Expert than a T7 Master.</p><p>In T9, every single Expert I have seen thus far is worse than the T8 Master. Every buff, every damage spell, CA, taunt, etc. is slightly worse as a T9 Expert than a T8 Master.</p><p>That is a significant shift.</p><p>It's good and bad. Stinks that I can't just upgrade everything right away, but it's nice that I don't have to worry about getting any more Expert downgrades until my current Master is done "cooking". That sort of thing should help the rares market stay relatively cool, although it doesn't seem to have done so yet.</p></blockquote><p>they are not all like this ... I have some (4 that I've checked so far) that the t9 adept is actually better than the t8 expert.. I also have a couple that the t9 master is actually worse than the t8 master but have only seen two abilities so far this way .. I am too lazy to check them all</p><p>I am so conf00sed!!!!</p>

[Kulaf]

<p>Correct me if I am wrong here because it has been quite a while since I worried about this issue but here goes:</p><p>The higher tier Experts "appear" to be worse if you straight up compare numbers.  However in practice they will be better.  The reason is the level disparity between them.  For example if you have a level 75 spell and do a fight with a level 90 mob the spell will be resisted more and mitigate damage more than the level 85 upgrade will on the same MOB.</p>

[Dasein]

<p><cite>Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Correct me if I am wrong here because it has been quite a while since I worried about this issue but here goes:</p><p>The higher tier Experts "appear" to be worse if you straight up compare numbers.  However in practice they will be better.  The reason is the level disparity between them.  For example if you have a level 75 spell and do a fight with a level 90 mob the spell will be resisted more and mitigate damage more than the level 85 upgrade will on the same MOB.</p></blockquote><p>I don't think damage scales by level like that. There's a few spells that have effects that are more likely to be resisted by higher level mobs - control effects in particular - but damage resist rate is determined by spell tier (adept, expert, master) not spell level versus encounter level. The relevant skill associated with the spell versus the encounter level does impact resist rates, but that has nothing to do with the spell level itself.</p><p>Further, none of that applies to things like heals or buffs.</p>

[Gaige]

<p>Experts were hardly ever "a lot" better than masters they were normally consistent minimal upgrades.  The probem this tier is the mythical weapon bonuses (until you get the clicky), set gear bonuses, and some AAs that don't affect the entire line yet.</p><p>Once they fix the AAs and you get the myth clicky, the issue should be mostly resolved outside of T8 set gear affecting T8 spells, which imo is how it should be.  You'll get bonuses to the T9 spells with T9 gear.</p>

[woolf2k]

<p>that's why SOE needs to eliminate this ridiculous "quality" craziness. </p><p>spells already upgrade as you level . no need to have a 2nd tier of leveling. it just adds complexity for complexity sakes. </p>

[Jrral]

<p><cite>Teeboy@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>they are not all like this ... I have some (4 that I've checked so far) that the t9 adept is actually better than the t8 expert.. I also have a couple that the t9 master is actually worse than the t8 master but have only seen two abilities so far this way .. I am too lazy to check them all</p><p>I am so conf00sed!!!!</p></blockquote><p>Do you have raid gear or your mythical? I've noticed that that kind of gear can have effects on it that boost T8 abilities but don't affect the T9 version of the same ability/spell. For myself, I'm finding that consistently the T9 Adept is just a hair better than the T8 Expert, so when I hear people talking about T8 Masters being better than the T9 Expert I tend to think that it's something on their gear that's boosting the Master rather than the actual numbers.</p><p>Another thing to do is to drop all your gear and buffs and then compare the numbers. That'll give you the base numbers on the spell/ability.</p>

[kcirrot]

<p><cite>Jaine@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>that's why SOE needs to eliminate this ridiculous "quality" craziness. </p><p>spells already upgrade as you level . no need to have a 2nd tier of leveling. it just adds complexity for complexity sakes. </p></blockquote><p>I agree with you, but if they got rid of spell quality, NO MATTER HOW THEY DID IT, people would pull out the torches and pitchforks.  Even if it were a massive buff.  Like making the base spell quality at the level of Grandmaster spells.</p>

[Kel]

<p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Experts were hardly ever "a lot" better than masters they were normally consistent minimal upgrades.  The probem this tier is the mythical weapon bonuses (until you get the clicky), set gear bonuses, and some AAs that don't affect the entire line yet.</p><p>Once they fix the AAs and you get the myth clicky, the issue should be mostly resolved outside of T8 set gear affecting T8 spells, which imo is how it should be.  You'll get bonuses to the T9 spells with T9 gear.</p></blockquote><p>Not entirely true. For instance -- Without any gear that applies a bonus, T9 Assassinate AD3 is lower damage than t8 Assassinate master.</p><p>And yes, that's with the buff, not the weapon.</p>

[Erage]

<p>It's all because the spells still scale based on a 14 level progression but we are getting them every 10 levels now instead of 14.  It's more noticeable this expansion than last because not every spell in t8 was upgraded from one 10 levels below it.  Perhaps they should readjust how spells scale to better fit a 10 level progression so we don't have a lot of experts that are just worse than the previous master.</p><p>There is also an issue with control effect spells (i.e. Root, Mez, Fear, etc).  The T9 versions are identical in duration to the T8 versions, and there is absolutely no difference in the 2 except the t9 costs more power.  The resistability for the master T8 spells increases at level 106, which is far greater than what we'd face in t9.  This is the first tier in which the control effects were not increased in duration, and that's fine if they don't want to keep extending the duration each tier, but there needs to be a difference if they are going to have "upgrades" to these control effect spells.</p>

[Gaige]

<p><cite>Kel wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: 10.8px;">Not entirely true. For instance -- Without any gear that applies a bonus, T9 Assassinate AD3 is lower damage than t8 Assassinate master.</span></p><p>And yes, that's with the buff, not the weapon.</p></blockquote><p>Only one though, and I couldn't figure out why either.  With myth clicky the only adept 3s that were worse were assassinate, masked strike, mortal blade and fatal followup - which are all affected by set gear.</p>

[Dechau]

<p>I really don't get this..</p><p>This is the second or third tread about a subject that's not been changed for the last 3 expansions or so..</p><p>People STILL get surprised when they buy a rare to 30+ plats..</p><p>Devs, can't you just once and for all explain to the people who STILL don't understand how it works, that its intentional that A3 upgrade A3 and masters upgrade masters..</p><p>Thanks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Cusashorn]

<p>Just throwing in my two cents here, but in my experience, Next Tier experts have ALWAYS been worse than last tier's Master spells.</p><p>All my Stances, buffs, and attacks are were stronger at T7 Master than they were at T8 Expert. Same applied to T6. The T7 Masters experts were better than T7 experts.</p><p>I'm not going to start using my T9 abilities until they're upgraded to Master status, which WILL take months.</p><p>Master spells are only suppose to be superior to Master spells. Expert Spells are not suppose to be better than master spells, even of the last tier.</p>

[Deson]

<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Master spells are only suppose to be superior to Master spells. Expert Spells are not suppose to be better than master spells, even of the last tier.</p></blockquote><p>Except that it was posted that experts <em>are </em>supposed to be better and they went through all the trouble to make it so. This has only been an issue since we moved to 10 level upgrades and this is the first full tier on it.</p>

[Banditman]

<p><cite>Deson wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Master spells are only suppose to be superior to Master spells. Expert Spells are not suppose to be better than master spells, even of the last tier.</p></blockquote><p><strong>Except that it was posted that experts <em>are </em>supposed to be better and they went through all the trouble to make it so.</strong> This has only been an issue since we moved to 10 level upgrades and this is the first full tier on it.</p></blockquote><p>I'd like to see that quoted at some point in the last 2 years.</p>

[Odys]

<p>Quite surprising, but since i create my account right when ROK came out i entered Kunark with a MC suit (T6-7 legendary were too crappy ... their best use was the apperance slots) and Adept 1 and 3, so for me ROK legendary (even the ones from solo quest) and T8 Adept III were huge improvement. But older player who raided in T7 and had a full master    book probable had to wait to hit hard instances and to win some master to see any improvement.</p><p> This is what is happening to me for SF, even if i raided only a bit m starting SF with much better gear than ROK, so i will have to farm instances to get better spells and better gear.</p><p>It also seem to me that the jump 80-90 is quite different from the jump 70-80, I managed to survive and heal quite well deep in the hole being a T2 82 warden, with very red mobs, the average group level was like 84. I don't think that going in sebilis till Venril Lair with an average level of 74 was that easy.</p><p>I also find the solo quests monsters to be in paper (even if the red 1^ named drake is mean, much harder then the ^^Wyvern) , i don't   know if people entering Kunark with good gear felt as i do now in SF.  I remember very much being almost 1 shotted by normal white/yellow monsters in ROK, in SF i get about the same challenge pulling 2 linked 1^ in the hole. And i m not particularly well equiped, a standard T2 player.</p><p>So it's seems that the solo difficulty has been tuned at a mastercraft level <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, which mean that the designers expect people to bypass Shadow Odyesse.</p>