Our raid role now?

[Fhenix]

<p>Okay, I have been wondering this now since the expansion came out.. What is the use of having our class on a raid now???  We were supposed to be given some raid defining characteristic that would make our class wantable on raids... It seems we are in the SAME position again but with a dps boost.. One that probably in the end STILL won't match that of a wizzy, warlock, or assassin etc.  So if we aren't topping the dps then what utility do we bring a raid thats a must have?  I am not bashing anything I am just VERY curious because I am deciding whether or not I should continue building my newly level 90 conj <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Xalmat]

<p>DPS, DPS, and more DPS. We also provide survivability through Runes of Geomancy, and our raidwide buff is a definite boost to the raid. Elemental Toxicity is also a ginormous DPS boost for our group on AoE fights (although they will be rare in SF).</p>

[Fhenix]

<p>Whats our raidwide buff?  And if our job is dps dps and dps wont wizards still out dps us? </p>

[Xalmat]

<p><cite>Fhenix wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Whats our raidwide buff?  And if our job is dps dps and dps wont wizards still out dps us? </p></blockquote><p>It's hard to say to be honest, but with the gains that summoners have received with Sentinel's Fate, plus the <em>very</em> generous amount of pet effects added to Sentinel's Fate instance and raid gear (especially with the new Molten Carnage stat) I would expect Conjurors will be able to meet, or exceed Sorcerer DPS right now.</p><p>Our raidwide buff is 3% potency, 3% max HP, and 5% armor effectiveness.</p>

[Lantis]

<p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It's hard to say to be honest, but with the gains that summoners have received with Sentinel's Fate, plus the <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong><em>very</em></strong></span> <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">generous amount of pet effects added to Sentinel's Fate instance and raid gear</span></strong> (especially with the new Molten Carnage stat) I would expect Conjurors will be able to meet, or exceed Sorcerer DPS right now.</p><p>Our raidwide buff is 3% potency, 3% max HP, and 5% armor effectiveness.</p></blockquote><p>Your initial reaction to raid gear was a pretty negative one during Beta.  Would you say this has changed since the initial batch of raid gear you saw?  So far I have only seen legendary gear, and I must say it's not bad at all for legendary.  Pretty much in-line with the previous tier fabled, which is what I usually observed when a new tier comes up.</p>

[Kain-UK]

<p>The new effect on Fire Seed makes us viable utility as well.</p><p>Slap that on a DPS class and they get 5% strikethrough on all attacks... which is -very- nice. I notice people are loving having me in groups for that reason, plus the insane DPS boost!</p>

[Xalmat]

<p><cite>Lantis@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It's hard to say to be honest, but with the gains that summoners have received with Sentinel's Fate, plus the <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong><em>very</em></strong></span> <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">generous amount of pet effects added to Sentinel's Fate instance and raid gear</span></strong> (especially with the new Molten Carnage stat) I would expect Conjurors will be able to meet, or exceed Sorcerer DPS right now.</p><p>Our raidwide buff is 3% potency, 3% max HP, and 5% armor effectiveness.</p></blockquote><p>Your initial reaction to raid gear was a pretty negative one during Beta.  Would you say this has changed since the initial batch of raid gear you saw?  So far I have only seen legendary gear, and I must say it's not bad at all for legendary.  Pretty much in-line with the previous tier fabled, which is what I usually observed when a new tier comes up.</p></blockquote><p>The raid armor itself I'm still not terribly pleased with. However based on the <em>jewelry</em> that we have available, of which there is an abundance of very useful pet effects (Molten Carnage, Power Flux, Quicksilver Blood, and even Destructive Forces is somewhat available) it's proven to be a very effective boost to summoners compared to TSO.</p>

[Alfeo]

<p>It remains to be seen but I expect very good wizards to be pretty much unbeatable by just about anyone. The DPS wizards are putting out is pretty insane at the top end right now. Not to stay out damage is bad but I'm skeptical in a min/max situation that beating a same skilled wizard is feasible, as it should be. Now that said, we do have a few utility things that are kind of useful. For hard fights people will want the 3% health 5% phys mit raid wide effect our myth pet has and some of our abilities are tailored to making the mage group we are in just a little less squishy.</p><p>I'd say this is the most viable we've been in a long time but as Xalmat put it, our primary role is dps and I'd say our secondary and tertiary role is dps. Our utility is mostly replacable so its DPS that is gonna keep your spot.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>The other utility that we have is we (along with Necromancers) are perhaps the best class for odd-jobs during raids, like clickies and the like.</p><p>The glory days of Druushk, Nexona, and Venril Sathir are best forgotten. However there's plenty of Shadow Odyssey fights (Thet-em-aua, Zarrakon, Mynzak, Ozyk, Umzok, Munzok, Field General) and Sentinel's Fate fights (Parmare twins immediately come to mind) that involve clickies or running around finding things. Summoners are able to perform these roles while leaving their pets focused on the named. This way we don't <em>completely</em> lose out on damage output like other classes would.</p>

[thog_zork]

<p><cite>Kain-UK wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The new effect on Fire Seed makes us viable utility as well.</p><p>Slap that on a DPS class and they get 5% strikethrough on all attacks... which is -very- nice. I notice people are loving having me in groups for that reason, plus the insane DPS boost!</p></blockquote><p>you do know that strikethrough is working only on "blocks" which only happesn if your are in front of a mob ... scouts are in the back of a mob !</p><p>Runes of geomancy was nerfed so badly ... it now only good for heroic play or the rare times you have a tank in group</p>

[Axanar]

<p>I would anticipate summoners will still stay well below wizards in DPS in most situations. But how does conjy dps compare to the necro's?</p>

[Xalmat]

<p><cite>Axanar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I would anticipate summoners will still stay well below wizards in DPS in most situations. But how does conjy dps compare to the necro's?</p></blockquote><p>Right now, Conjurors seem to have an edge; The dramatic increase in pet gear effectiveness, combined with our pet being a much more important component of our DPS than the Necro's pet is for their DPS, plus Elemental Blast, seems to have made a gap between the two classes. That and the amount of skilled top-end Conjurors far exceeds the amount of skilled top-end Necromancers makes it really hard to do real solid comparisons.</p><p>However, historically Conjurors have always been the better class in AoE situations, and Necromancers have been better in the single target front.</p>

[Kain-UK]

<p><cite>thog_zork wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kain-UK wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The new effect on Fire Seed makes us viable utility as well.</p><p>Slap that on a DPS class and they get 5% strikethrough on all attacks... which is -very- nice. I notice people are loving having me in groups for that reason, plus the insane DPS boost!</p></blockquote><p>you do know that strikethrough is working only on "blocks" which only happesn if your are in front of a mob ... scouts are in the back of a mob !</p><p>Runes of geomancy was nerfed so badly ... it now only good for heroic play or the rare times you have a tank in group</p></blockquote><p>Considering it says it works on a successful avoidance check, then I would assume it'd still have a chance of working for a scout if by some reason the mob manages to dodge, parry or riposte from the rear...</p><p>And let's be honest, we HAVE seen them do that! :p</p><p>Either way, it's still extra damage.</p><p>With regards to conjys vs sorcerers, so far I've been keeping up with a similarly geared wizzie of the same level. Though apparently wizzies are pulling 16-20k DPS at the momemnt, whereas I seem to be somwhere around 9-13k... though I think I need gear and spell upgrades.</p>

[Axanar]

<p>Thank you for the very detailed response Xalmat. I used to be a skilled-necromancer before I switched to my illusionist. I think it may be a good time to betray and see what the other side of the summoners is like (used to be an EQ1 mage).</p><p>If I betray, do I keep my necromancer mythical? (in case I ever go back?) or as a novelty item <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Thanks!</p>

[Alfeo]

<p>On beta at least, doing the epic quest epic repercussions will remove all epic/myth weapons from you. Both necro and conjuror. This is to prevent you from getting one myth weapon, and then the other classes' myth buff then betraying and geting a new myth buff from the docks guy so that you can have Myth + myth buff on one character.</p><p>Things might have changed but I'd expect all myths/epics on your person to be gone when you complete the quest and you'll have to complete the quest at some point since for various reasons, sticking with the myth pet when you are level 90 doesn't work very well.</p>

[Lantis]

<p>After completing the quest, your mythical is removed, and replaced with the fabled version, which only offers the basic weapon stats (+crit chance, etc...).  This means you can still use it as a weapon, until you find a suitable replacement.  All the other buffs are applied to you through the newly acquired buff.</p>

[Nimbrithil]

<p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Fhenix wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Whats our raidwide buff?  And if our job is dps dps and dps wont wizards still out dps us? </p></blockquote><p>It's hard to say to be honest, but with the gains that summoners have received with Sentinel's Fate, plus the <em>very</em> generous amount of pet effects added to Sentinel's Fate instance and raid gear (especially with the new Molten Carnage stat) I would expect Conjurors will be able to meet, or exceed Sorcerer DPS right now.</p><p>Our raidwide buff is 3% potency, 3% max HP, and 5% armor effectiveness.</p></blockquote><p>I was third or forth on the parse ina  recent t8 raid behind all level 90 toons and Im only 85 so far. Get your myth comversion quest done as fast as you can though. It adds a HUGE chunck and dps.</p>

[Cisgo]

<p> With Elementsl Blast the conjurors are now top parse above sorcerers. Also with this ability conjurors lead summoners in single target DPS, as well as multi target (which they always had). Elemental Blast also is still smoking players in Battle Grounds even though adjusted. Enjoying these benefits, however there isn't much summoner balance right now. I saw no need to reduce recast of Elemental Blast in beta, it was too powerful even then. Enjoy it while it lasts.</p>

[Alfeo]

<p><cite>Cisgo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> With Elementsl Blast the conjurors are now top parse above sorcerers. Also with this ability conjurors lead summoners in single target DPS, as well as multi target (which they always had). Elemental Blast also is still smoking players in Battle Grounds even though adjusted. Enjoying these benefits, however there isn't much summoner balance right now. I saw no need to reduce recast of Elemental Blast in beta, it was too powerful even then. Enjoy it while it lasts.</p></blockquote><p>You forget that Fiery Blast does more damage than Elemental Blast does which wizards got this expac. And while the ramp up damage to fiery cant be effected by double attack the spell itself can and fiery blast has hit for 350k on beta raids. Sure if the wizard is average or subpar they'll be beatable by a top notch conj but a top notch wizard is gonna win the parse period except perhaps on AE in which case the Lock will likely win unless the lock and conj are in separate groups then it might be close once you factor in toxicity. You can't just selectively overlook the tools each class is getting. Yes Necros didn't get enough but Wizards/Warlocks and Conjurors did to keep a reasonable balance between the three classes.Necros need to be buffed certainly, then they will fit in nicely beside conjurors in terms of mage dps and hey the casters will actually be balanced now.</p>

[Transen]

<p>I've noticed that while I have a primary pet up, that the pet casts a raid-wide buff that increases damage.  I've noticed that necros have recieved a similar buff from their pets being up as well.</p><p>I double checked to make sure that it wasn't an effect from some piece of gear or a set bonus..it's not.  Not from any AA's either.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p><cite>Transen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I've noticed that while I have a primary pet up, that the pet casts a raid-wide buff that increases damage.  I've noticed that necros have recieved a similar buff from their pets being up as well.</p><p>I double checked to make sure that it wasn't an effect from some piece of gear or a set bonus..it's not.  Not from any AA's either.</p></blockquote><p>That's normal! Pets are supposed to cast a raidwide simply for existing.</p>

[Gormak]

<p><cite>Cisgo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> With Elementsl Blast the conjurors are now top parse above sorcerers. Also with this ability conjurors lead summoners in single target DPS, as well as multi target (which they always had). Elemental Blast also is still smoking players in Battle Grounds even though adjusted. Enjoying these benefits, however there isn't much summoner balance right now. I saw no need to reduce recast of Elemental Blast in beta, it was too powerful even then. Enjoy it while it lasts.</p></blockquote><p>This is poor analysis/comment. Your looking at 1 ability in and of itself without drawing comparison to buffs/aa's that other classes got. Critique what wizards, assasins, brigands, rangers, warlocks, and swashies got.</p><p>On the one hand your saying theres no balance within summoners, and on the other your even implying outright nerf completely.</p><p>Most people would reserve comment on such things until the expansion settles, people get into the level and aa caps, and master distribution becomes more expected than an anomoly.</p><p>I think youll likely find once the dust settles its not the cry for nerf youll be looking at but the buff cry for necros. Nerfing will only disrupt the balance conjurors have struck with other dps classes.</p>

[iceriven2]

<p>The conjy in my raid alliance has been number 2 on aoe fights (no warlock), and 3 on single target, there t2 dps and the gap between sorcerers/pred  to conjy's isnt big.  So it looks like they are improved for sure.</p>

[Draco the Grey]

<p>While I'm technically taking a break from raiding atm, on the couple I nights I have gone raiding I was #1 by a hefty margin over our Assassin and Warlock - on most named fights and on the zonewide.  Assassin fared better on the trash due to short duration.  Our Wizard is MIA though, so I can't really make comparisons there.</p><p>Granted, by the end of TSO I was topping the parse on nights the Wizard was gone, but the margin was much, much closer.</p>

[Cisgo]

<p><cite>Gormak wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cisgo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> With Elementsl Blast the conjurors are now top parse above sorcerers. Also with this ability conjurors lead summoners in single target DPS, as well as multi target (which they always had). Elemental Blast also is still smoking players in Battle Grounds even though adjusted. Enjoying these benefits, however there isn't much summoner balance right now. I saw no need to reduce recast of Elemental Blast in beta, it was too powerful even then. Enjoy it while it lasts.</p></blockquote><p>This is poor analysis/comment. Your looking at 1 ability in and of itself without drawing comparison to buffs/aa's that other classes got. Critique what wizards, assasins, brigands, rangers, warlocks, and swashies got.</p><p>On the one hand your saying theres no balance within summoners, and on the other your even implying outright nerf completely.</p><p>Most people would reserve comment on such things until the expansion settles, people get into the level and aa caps, and master distribution becomes more expected than an anomoly.</p><p>I think youll likely find once the dust settles its not the cry for nerf youll be looking at but the buff cry for necros. Nerfing will only disrupt the balance conjurors have struck with other dps classes.</p></blockquote><p>  Take anything you want from my comment, I am not advocating nerf. I am stating fact. Some of you fellow conjurors forget your still classified as a "tier 2 " DPS class. With the new abilities that is not the case. Conjurors pulling 50k parses on my raids while sorcerers struggling to crack 40, there is a noticeable change in the conjuror DPS and a large part is due to Elemental Blast/Toxicity.</p><p> My main concern and reason for the post is the lack of balance between the two summoners. That doesn't mean compare assasins and wizards new abilities, it means summoners. The necromancer is lagging behind the conjuror on all forms of DPS and desired utility, I would like to see something done to correct that. For me dust has settled, my peers and I have the AA and some fabled 90, as well as hand full of masters, the conjurors are going nowhere from the top of the parse anytime soon, it is not even close to be equipment/master debatable atm.</p><p>  And before anyone chirps about players knowing how to play thier classes, we currently have the top summoners, sorcerers, as well as several other classes that are on our server.</p>

[Badmotorfinger]

<p><cite>Cisgo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gormak wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cisgo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> With Elementsl Blast the conjurors are now top parse above sorcerers. Also with this ability conjurors lead summoners in single target DPS, as well as multi target (which they always had). Elemental Blast also is still smoking players in Battle Grounds even though adjusted. Enjoying these benefits, however there isn't much summoner balance right now. I saw no need to reduce recast of Elemental Blast in beta, it was too powerful even then. Enjoy it while it lasts.</p></blockquote><p>This is poor analysis/comment. Your looking at 1 ability in and of itself without drawing comparison to buffs/aa's that other classes got. Critique what wizards, assasins, brigands, rangers, warlocks, and swashies got.</p><p>On the one hand your saying theres no balance within summoners, and on the other your even implying outright nerf completely.</p><p>Most people would reserve comment on such things until the expansion settles, people get into the level and aa caps, and master distribution becomes more expected than an anomoly.</p><p>I think youll likely find once the dust settles its not the cry for nerf youll be looking at but the buff cry for necros. Nerfing will only disrupt the balance conjurors have struck with other dps classes.</p></blockquote><p>  Take anything you want from my comment, I am not advocating nerf. I am stating fact. Some of you fellow conjurors forget your still classified as a "tier 2 " DPS class. With the new abilities that is not the case. Conjurors pulling 50k parses on my raids while sorcerers struggling to crack 40, there is a noticeable change in the conjuror DPS and a large part is due to Elemental Blast/Toxicity.</p><p> My main concern and reason for the post is the lack of balance between the two summoners. That doesn't mean compare assasins and wizards new abilities, it means summoners. The necromancer is lagging behind the conjuror on all forms of DPS and desired utility, I would like to see something done to correct that. For me dust has settled, my peers and I have the AA and some fabled 90, as well as hand full of masters, the conjurors are going nowhere from the top of the parse anytime soon, it is not even close to be equipment/master debatable atm.</p><p>  And before anyone chirps about players knowing how to play thier classes, we currently have the top summoners, sorcerers, as well as several other classes that are on our server.</p></blockquote><p>You never state facts.  All you ever do is whine and base arguments off conjecture.  I mean you make statements like; "With Elementsl Blast the conjurors are now top parse above sorcerers" and you expect people to take you seriously?</p><p>Just give it a rest already.  Instead of complaining you should put forth that effort into deriving what Elemental Decay is doing for you.  To me the biggest false perception on balance comes due to the fact that this buff just isn't measurable the same way as somthing that gives actual numbers.  The devs have stated what the intentions for the buff are and if you'd accept that; you'd realize that it's quite the effective buff.  If you're not seeing what the devs told you, you should see; then that's somthing you need to push.  Don't let what Conji's do, twist your panties into a bunch.</p>

[Hrungnir]

<p>Players that understand their class will always be a viable option for a raid. Raiding in an ambitious casual raidforce, we have a necro, two warlocks, two wizards and a conj(me) in our roster. So far, the numbers tell me that everything is right were its supposed to be: Assuming comparable skill and gear, Wizards and Warlocks should still be on top ZONEWIDE by a good chunk. Do not base your assumptions on certain AE-Fights were Summoners, Conj but also Necro shine with ET(our Necro does regularly parse over 50k, and I repeat, we are casual) but really look at the ZW parses. Comparing for instance the difference of tier1 and tier2 Scouts(Assa to Swash etc.) the difference between Sorc and Summoners is similar so i dont see a prob there. Of course there will always be fights were the one class has the upper hand. And as said before, if better played, a summoner might beat a wizard/warlock on a regular basis, but do not generalize.</p>

[Nooblet]

<p>Has anyone run analysis on runes of geomancy by chance? Curious to see the proc rates and such if they exist.</p>

[Lantis]

<p>Last night, my raid group had both myself and our necro, both of us specced for Elemental Toxicity.</p><p>The zonewide result for me was 4% of my parse came from our combined Elem Tox - not bad at all.  30 secs of Elem Tox in a fight is definitely making a solid impact (and I haven't looked at my other group members's own Elem Tox parse).</p><p>BTW, is it me or just lag?  It seems like Elem Tox doesn't last 15 secs - more like 12 secs.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p><cite>Nooblet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Has anyone run analysis on runes of geomancy by chance? Curious to see the proc rates and such if they exist.</p></blockquote><p>It procs all the bloody time, as long as the person proccing it gets meleed. Keep in mind for tanks that it will only proc when the mob gets past the tank's avoidance checks, which is going to be a smaller percentage of attacks than 10%.</p><p>Elemental Toxicity definitely lasts 15 seconds, maybe a bit longer with a Troub buff. It only seems like it lasts shorter because it doesn't show in your maintained.</p>

[Lantis]

<p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Nooblet wrote:</cite></p><p>Elemental Toxicity definitely lasts 15 seconds, maybe a bit longer with a Troub buff. It only seems like it lasts shorter because it doesn't show in your maintained.</p></blockquote><p>I do see it show up in my buff area - I guess by the time I managed to hover my pointer over it and have the tooltip show up, 2 secs or so have already elapsed.</p>

[Hirofortis]

<p><cite>Kain-UK wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>thog_zork wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kain-UK wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The new effect on Fire Seed makes us viable utility as well.</p><p>Slap that on a DPS class and they get 5% strikethrough on all attacks... which is -very- nice. I notice people are loving having me in groups for that reason, plus the insane DPS boost!</p></blockquote><p>you do know that strikethrough is working only on "blocks" which only happesn if your are in front of a mob ... scouts are in the back of a mob !</p><p>Runes of geomancy was nerfed so badly ... it now only good for heroic play or the rare times you have a tank in group</p></blockquote><p>Considering it says it works on a successful avoidance check, then I would assume it'd still have a chance of working for a scout if by some reason the mob manages to dodge, parry or riposte from the rear...</p><p>And let's be honest, we HAVE seen them do that! :p</p><p>Either way, it's still extra damage.</p><p>With regards to conjys vs sorcerers, so far I've been keeping up with a similarly geared wizzie of the same level. Though apparently wizzies are pulling 16-20k DPS at the momemnt, whereas I seem to be somwhere around 9-13k... though I think I need gear and spell upgrades.</p></blockquote><p>I am sure hoping I have a lot more to lok forward to than a meesly 2k increase in DPS.  I can already run 11k sustained DPS on lvl 92 epics at lvl 85.  Does anyone have some raid parses they could share to see where we are at?</p>

[hellfire]

<p><cite>Krunck@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am sure hoping I have a lot more to lok forward to than a meesly 2k increase in DPS.  I can already run 11k sustained DPS on lvl 92 epics at lvl 85.  Does anyone have some raid parses they could share to see where we are at?</p></blockquote><p>Go to Eq2flames.com to see parses for all classes.Each class board will useually have parse threads.</p><p>As it stands right now   dps is  is looking like:</p><p>Assasin</p><p>Wizard/lock/necro</p><p>Swashy/Conj/Ranger</p><p>Brig/Zerker/SK/Dirge</p><p>Illy/Cocer/Troub/Fury.</p><p>Some can flop a spot or 2 but generally this is what is rankings at very top end.</p><p>Range is around 20-40k from lowest listed to highest as a average.</p><p>Single target named can reach 60k while big group enounters of 30+ seconds can see over 120k.</p><p>Depending on group set up/gear/speed of kill/skill/temp buffs available your milage can vary.</p>

[leannel]

<p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Fhenix wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Whats our raidwide buff?  And if our job is dps dps and dps wont wizards still out dps us? </p></blockquote><p>It's hard to say to be honest, but with the gains that summoners have received with Sentinel's Fate, plus the <em>very</em> generous amount of pet effects added to Sentinel's Fate instance and raid gear (especially with the new Molten Carnage stat) I would expect Conjurors will be able to meet, or exceed Sorcerer DPS right now.</p><p>Our raidwide buff is 3% potency, 3% max HP, and 5% armor effectiveness.</p></blockquote><p>This is going to make me sound like a total noob, lol.  But where does the raid wide buff come from? </p>

[Xalmat]

<p>The pet.</p>