The Ranger Way of Life. Some suggestions and my thoughts.

[Rhan]

<p>I've have been a ranger since launch, participated in beta, (im on a new account due to issues with my old one) and on a more global scale have played a ranger as my default main, in just about ever game.  I love playing the class and in this game and others they are always a fun choice, as well as the RP and class flavor I like.  I would like to think I know a good deal about the archetype.</p><p>I've raided from t5 till RoK and then took a break.  Never really did TSO, but I've got the new expansion and remade my ranger main Rhanin on this new account from scratch.  I have loved releveling him for the second time and find myself enjoying the game more than my first time playing through in a lot of areas.  EQ2 is the best game on the market right now on an all around perspective.</p><p>With that said, I'm almost disgusted with the state of the ranger class and community.  I understand our position as a class, and that we are not in line with what we should be.  I find myself frustrated and irritated much like many of my fellow rangers, and I long for the necessary balancing and tweaking to find our class in a place of beign desired again.  What gets me boiling mad though is the unwaivering negativity of the class community.</p><p>I understand the frustration and the anger.  I use to be very active around DoF, KOS era in talking about the class balance and direction.  I tried to maintain my level of dedication through EoF and ran out of steam before RoK.  I went from being a constructive participant, to a rabid troll, and caught myself only to recluse and eventually leave the game.  I find myself back and loving the game, until I come to these boards and see that almost every ranger still left has fallen into that darker side.  It makes me not want to play the game all over again.</p><p>I say this as a means of illustrating the affect the state of the class and these boards have on my desire to be a member of the eq2 community, a fan of the product and company, and even my basic status as a player/gamer.  I say this so if a random dev wonders by maybe that can see how these things affect the playerbase.  But I also say this because it's time to break out of the loop.  We need some fresh thoughts, some constructive feedback, and some new ideas instead of the constant negativity and derision.</p><p>The ranger forumns use to be my favorite place to read up on interesting information, as well as, finding some of the best community members.  I'm not giving up on this game again till something new comes out, probably the copernicus project or something I haven't noticed yet, but I see at least a couple more years with this game before I go another route.  I am eager to see EQ Next, I love the everquest world, but until that or another game comes out this is my home and I'm tired of seeing the strife and frustration.  I understand there is only so much the dev's can do and we will probably see our turn again on the fix roster.  I will attempt patiences, and council the same in others, while hoping for the best.  In the mean time, instead of just mindless rage and ranting, it'd be nice to see constructive activity.</p><p>Taking my own advice, after having read around a lot of the forumns, I've come up with a few constructive ideas.  One probably won't be very popular because it's a bandaid kind of fix which changes some of the fundamental class structure.  The other is a fix/change suggestion for bow mechanics.  Like I said i've been gone for some time, missed all of TSO, so I may be off base with my suggestions.</p><p>The first idea, aka bandaid, would be for an AA revamp.  In our eof Ranger tree get rid of soem of the less used (read survival tree) AA tree's and replace them with ranged CA to melee conversion abilities much like wardens have for there spell based attack.  Make these converted ranged to melee CA's have faster casting reuse times with a buff to dmg/affect per rank which puts them in line with other melee scout dps while retaining Ranger flavor.  Doing this allows for a rainding/grouping/playstyle/flavor spec which alleviates our many issues with ranged combat.  The reason I like this idea is because it makes us viable for the endgame (if done right) while still allowing us the option of using our bow abilities for solo play.  It gives us an option to avoid the frustrations that limit our class but does not take away our unique direction.  Like i said if done right, with an end ability that converst our ranged proc'ing off stance and makeshift arrows to melee procs, it could be a good way/easy way to get us where we need to be without maing sweepign changes.</p><p>The second idea is rooted in the fact that as a singularly unique class with unique class mechanics in our bow usage, we are an individual asking for changes when the needs of the many must be addressed first.  As such I've seen a few threads for revamping 2handers in the game.  Instead of redo'ing one thing, link the mechanics for bows adn 2handers, and basically redo both at the same time so in all it's a fix for not just rangers but for a larger portion of the populace.  I haven't seen a single person over lvl 50 actually use a 2hander.  Duel wield is superior for those who can and most who can't sword adn board for specific ca's/aa specs or as their main role tanking.  Haven't thought this one through as much so less input here than on teh previous one. But, essentially if they rework mechanics for both and link them some how, they could possibly make (read fix) bows and 2 handers viable especially after all the nerfs to bow dmg and the hodge podge everchanging arrow/proc/delay mechanics.</p><p>I don't want to betray and I'd like to enjoy my twilight eq2 years, so my post I guess, is basically a plee for some changes in the community and in the game.  Typing this from work so probably not as thoroughly worded as it should be as I'm popping in and out between tech support calls.</p><p>Also in closing to the dev's.  For future products, as much as I loved the unique place rangers hold compared to other classes, for future games lol I'd promote making a class less unique if it means they won't be on the outside looking in from a game mechanics perspective.  It's nice to be different than every other class, but not at the sacrifice of being able to have regular itemization and effects apply to us causing us to be a head ache from a developement stance.</p><p>Rhanin Briarstrider</p>

[Nevao]

<p><cite>Rhanin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The first idea, aka bandaid, would be for an AA revamp.  In our eof Ranger tree get rid of soem of the less used (read survival tree) AA tree's and replace them with ranged CA to melee conversion abilities much like wardens have for there spell based attack.  Make these converted ranged to melee CA's have faster casting reuse times with a buff to dmg/affect per rank which puts them in line with other melee scout dps while retaining Ranger flavor.  Doing this allows for a rainding/grouping/playstyle/flavor spec which alleviates our many issues with ranged combat.  The reason I like this idea is because it makes us viable for the endgame (if done right) while still allowing us the option of using our bow abilities for solo play.  It gives us an option to avoid the frustrations that limit our class but does not take away our unique direction.  Like i said if done right, with an end ability that converst our ranged proc'ing off stance and makeshift arrows to melee procs, it could be a good way/easy way to get us where we need to be without maing sweepign changes.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">My main concern with this is just the sheer number of Ranged CAs we have. No one is going to want to spend that many AAs to convert all those abilities and unless recasts were significantly cut (and the damage would have to go down as well to compensate) on the ones that were converted I'm fairly sure would still have to use Ranged CAs to "fill the gaps". </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">That said I like the idea, I would instead use AA to change a handful of the melee CAs to ranged and tweak the dmg/cast times as appropriate. Most likely the ones that were under 10 minutes, but I haven't thought it all the way through. That would not necessarily fix our DPS but I could more easily justify a descrepency in DPS if we didn't have to move around to maintain optimal distance/dps. I can hear the cries of thousands of angry scouts though if that was the case. Hmm.... something to think about.</span></p>

[Rhan]

<p>First off I'm really glad you posted here Nevao, i've seen you around on the boards and you are a breath of fresh air in a sea of the neg's lol.</p><p>And yeah, it would definitely need to be fleshed out some more.  They could combine certain ca's into one aa for modification like combining our multi shot abilities in one aa to convert both so as not to spread out too much and create a flood of new things to spend otherwise useful points in.  Honestly if they took our longer casting/reuse abilities and made them into the melee ca's while leaving our shorter cast/reuse ones in place would work well and still require us to jump around a little just sort of inverted.  I always thought doing the sweet spot was sort of fun, just never liked not really being that rewarded for it.</p><p>If the dev's took a look at it overall it would be very nice in a few ways.  I've heard complaints by some that they wish rangers had a melee spec and it would let us take advantage of current mechanics like flurry and auto attack ae.  I personally have always prefered a more melee spec'd ranger setup with the ability to do ranged just a bit better than most.  The ca convert would still let us keep our ranged mastery for solo or joust fights and give us a little breadth of diversity in our play style.  Could be very interesting if done correctly.</p><p>My main concern would be how they would go about making us not a more exacting cookie cutter of an assassin.  If they did a direct transfer of our ranged ca's they may need to "re-season" the flair and sub affects some to bring them into fruition.  The best part is that with stat consolidation ingame now, this makes becomes even viable since we wouldn't need to carry around multiple sets of gear for melee and ranged.  I like the idea, and with a good pass over by a skilled dev for balance and additional tweaks I think we could have something here.</p><p> And then yes as another alternative you could go the opposite way and turn our melee ca's into ranged to make us less reliant on positioning.  I think this would be less likely, as you said, because of the up roar we'd hear about rangers then being even more easy mode, but who's to say.  I'm not holding out for anything soon, but it would be nice to see the dev's get a little more creative with a way to make rangers more endgame viable.  Instead of the usual, small tweaks, do something a little more interesting (not read as OP'ing) though I know radical change doesn't get smiled upon since the NGA thing so maybe not.  I'm more for a new direction for the ranger class at this point since our current one is not working and if anything is generating ever expanding issues.</p><p>Rhanin Briarstrider</p>

[Ranja]

<p><cite>Rhanin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>First off I'm really glad you posted here Nevao, i've seen you around on the boards and you are a breath of fresh air in a sea of the neg's lol.</p><p>And yeah, it would definitely need to be fleshed out some more.  They could combine certain ca's into one aa for modification like combining our multi shot abilities in one aa to convert both so as not to spread out too much and create a flood of new things to spend otherwise useful points in.  Honestly if they took our longer casting/reuse abilities and made them into the melee ca's while leaving our shorter cast/reuse ones in place would work well and still require us to jump around a little just sort of inverted.  I always thought doing the sweet spot was sort of fun, just never liked not really being that rewarded for it.</p><p>If the dev's took a look at it overall it would be very nice in a few ways.  I've heard complaints by some that they wish rangers had a melee spec and it would let us take advantage of current mechanics like flurry and auto attack ae.  I personally have always prefered a more melee spec'd ranger setup with the ability to do ranged just a bit better than most.  The ca convert would still let us keep our ranged mastery for solo or joust fights and give us a little breadth of diversity in our play style.  Could be very interesting if done correctly.</p><p>My main concern would be how they would go about making us not a more exacting cookie cutter of an assassin.  If they did a direct transfer of our ranged ca's they may need to "re-season" the flair and sub affects some to bring them into fruition.  The best part is that with stat consolidation ingame now, this makes becomes even viable since we wouldn't need to carry around multiple sets of gear for melee and ranged.  I like the idea, and with a good pass over by a skilled dev for balance and additional tweaks I think we could have something here.</p><p> And then yes as another alternative you could go the opposite way and turn our melee ca's into ranged to make us less reliant on positioning.  I think this would be less likely, as you said, because of the up roar we'd hear about rangers then being even more easy mode, but who's to say.  I'm not holding out for anything soon, but it would be nice to see the dev's get a little more creative with a way to make rangers more endgame viable.  Instead of the usual, small tweaks, do something a little more interesting (not read as OP'ing) though I know radical change doesn't get smiled upon since the NGA thing so maybe not.  I'm more for a new direction for the ranger class at this point since our current one is not working and if anything is generating ever expanding issues.</p><p>Rhanin Briarstrider</p></blockquote><p>Sorry to pi$$ on your parade (all of 3 posts). But you will eventually, like all of us, who have been here for awhile, get sick of talking to yourself on these boards. You will then realize all the positive talk and constructive comments don't matter a single bit because when (if) any changes are made,  you will look at the changes and be like "[Removed for Content], did they not listen to a thing we said on the ranger boards". And you answer will be, yes they did not listen to a single thing.</p><p>And all this banter and postive drivel you are spouting, will turn bitter in your mouth and you will realize it does not matter what you say here or what tone you say it in (as us veterans have realized). So feel free to talk away and put big thoughts on this board but don't be surprised when everything you have said is completely ignored and the devs do what the hell they want with this class.</p><p>Then you too will now the meaning of this :</p><p>In the desert I saw a creature, naked, bestial, Who, squatting upon the ground, Held his heart in his hands, And ate of it. I said, "Is it good, friend?" "It is bitter – bitter", he answered, "But I like it Because it is bitter, And because it is my heart."</p>

[Rhan]

<p>Ooh somebodies cranky!</p><p>I've been here before, and I've experienced exactly what you are talking about.  I took a break and washed the sand out of my nether regions.  Maybe you should try the same.</p>

[Ranja]

<p><cite>Rhanin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ooh somebodies cranky!</p><p>I've been here before, and I've experienced exactly what you are talking about.  I took a break and washed the sand out of my nether regions.  Maybe you should try the same.</p></blockquote><p>I call it realism with a side of bitterness<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />...lol.</p>

[Rhan]

<p>I understand where you are coming from, I really do.  I made it half way through RoK and couldn't take being 4th at best in my raiding guild no matter what.  Guild "persuaded" me to roll a brig, which don't get me wrong I loved playing, but it all killed the fun in the game for me.  I'm sure, unfortunately, I'll eventually windup in the same place again.  Like I said in my OP though, another game will come along, i just want a good home for the next year or two until they do.  That and I feel an amazing kinship and loyalty to the class no matter what it seems.</p>

[Ranja]

<p><cite>Rhanin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I understand where you are coming from, I really do.  I made it half way through RoK and couldn't take being 4th at best in my raiding guild no matter what.  Guild "persuaded" me to roll a brig, which don't get me wrong I loved playing, but it all killed the fun in the game for me.  I'm sure, unfortunately, I'll eventually windup in the same place again.  Like I said in my OP though, another game will come along, i just want a good home for the next year or two until they do.  That and I feel an amazing kinship and loyalty to the class no matter what it seems.</p></blockquote><p>I hear ya. I like to keep an air of detached bitterness so as not to get burned anymore. I don't expect anything so I never get disappointed. I used to get all fired up and waste my time typing in my suggestions and giving constructive criticism; then it eventually dawned on me that it was a complete waste of energy.</p>

[Mythanote]

<p>I was weary of posting this, because of your jumping on anyone that doesnt post rainbows and flowers, but....</p><p>If I wanted to melee to dps, there are 5 other scouts that do thier dps that way.  So to your fix to change range abilities to melee to *catch us up*, would be last straw for me.   I dont say it being a negative nancy, but just posting my differing opinion to yours.</p><p>Cheers.</p>

[Neiloch]

Converting it so we are more melee is a universally bad idea. I could just roll some other scout, on top of just betraying to an assassin. I like nevao's version better but I would throw out the 'use AA points' part. Some of our melee CA's need to be changed to ranged ones outright imo. Or add a melee CA range increase to our extension AA, or just change it to melee range increase. I'm not exactly hurting for more bow range. Unfortunately the way things are going we have been getting more emphasis on melee rather than ranged. they need to get much more aggressive with adding damage to our ranged aspect. Take it from out melee DPS if you have too.

[Nevao]

<p><cite>Neiloch@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Converting it so we are more melee is a universally bad idea. I could just roll some other scout, on top of just betraying to an assassin. I like nevao's version better but I would throw out the 'use AA points' part. Some of our melee CA's need to be changed to ranged ones outright imo. Or add a melee CA range increase to our extension AA, or just change it to melee range increase. I'm not exactly hurting for more bow range. Unfortunately the way things are going we have been getting more emphasis on melee rather than ranged. they need to get much more aggressive with adding damage to our ranged aspect. Take it from out melee DPS if you have too.</blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">I hear ya on the AA. Personally I'd be happy if we could use Extension to give the melee arts with a max range under 10 meters,  +5 meters to make them consistent. That way we'd have a bit more wiggle room on positioning but would not be able to stay all the way out with the mages. We'd still have to worry about distance position but it wouldn't be quite so small a window and we'd still have to work on making sure we were facing the mobs back.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">Granted I think we've deviated from the original point, but [Removed for Content] that would make things a bit easier, especially in instances where tanks are chain pulling like mad.</span></p>

[Neiloch]

<p>IDEALLY this is something I would like to see. BTW this is like half or more blatantly ripping off WAR. <strong>Offensive stance</strong>: We make the offensive stance our range stance. Makes our range abilities do more damage, and possibly even make some of our melee reach further. Perhaps even further penalties to defense for balance. Just a constant volley of arrows on our target while staying planted/immobile. Possibly even a bonus to range damage the longer we attack and don't move. <strong>Defensive stance</strong>: we make this our defensive/solo stance. Still ups our defense. It has less range and possibly removes some bow range, ups melee a bit and allows some or all of our range CA's be castable on the move. This would be equivalent of WAR's 'skirmish' stance if you have played that. <strong>Overall offensive/bow stance would do the most damage</strong>, and lets us do it at a significant range. Skirmish stance for situations like soloing, general defense and even PvP (battlegrounds/scenarios). Rangers in EQ2 need play enjoyment improvement overall imo. I play MMO's constantly, almost exclusively and not once did I ever play another archer/ranger archeype on another MMO and think 'wish (ranger mechanic here) worked more like it does on EQ2'. Except for maybe WoW where I wish they weren't basically a pet class with a bow. If you don't like WAR rip off Vanguard. If you don't like those rip off LoTRO. Rangers in Aion are better unfortunately that game was too PvP heavy for me so didn't get to play with them much. Even Age of Conan rangers are better, no ammo to deal with and being able to shoot point blank. All these archer/ranger classes are more fun in the long run because they are much more range/bow focused than EQ2 rangers. Personally at this point I just have too many social ties and invested too much time into EQ2 to justify switching to one of these, unless they do in fact make us more melee focused than rangers already are.</p>

[kartikeya]

<p>My one big problem with that suggestion is the lack of movement for offensive. Moving around isn't just a solo necessity, there's far, far, far too much required movement on raids (and even in groups) for me to feel comfortable with a change that would require us to sit still. Even if we can sit at a distance that doesn't require jousting (and yeah, we'd need our melee arts made ranged for this to be feasible), there are still upteen million fights that require dancing around somewhere, jumping in pools, clicking random poles, standing in bubbles, etc etc, that this would interfere with to a very annoying degree.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p>Its already like that, except for the aspect of doing more DPS if we don't move which is already kind of true. If we move we can't use half our CA's so we have to stand still as much as possible already to get the most DPS. It would basically just be like how we are now but get a bonus in DPS for all the 'not moving' we already do. Its a pure bump in DPS.</p>

[Rhan]

<p>First off sorry if I gave the idea that I was trying to strong arm you guys into a better mood, rainbows and kittens and all.  Hehe was just my opinion.  And you aren't being overally negative for not wanting to change the ranged aspect of our class, valid point, through and through.</p><p>As for somene else who said they were changing the roll of this thread, not at all, this kind of discussion is exactly what I was hoping for.  Call me lazy, but in some ways it's nice getting this brought back up, so I don't have to read through a year of posts I missed on ideas.  So far everyone has mentioned extremely useful ideas or valid points and opinions.</p><p>I pointed out the use of aa's to make some of theses changes because it would allow us to keep both the ranged and melee ca for either usage so we wouldn't not be completely without either, limiting what we can do.  I wouldnt' want to be caught without melee in a tight spot and vice versa for ranged in an area I can run around. </p><p>At this point one of the things I would like to see them do is actually start exhibiting our ranged mastery as a class through our higher lvl abilities.  90th lvl and I'm still not good enough with a bow to shoot into melee combat?  I think, since not in this lvl increase, in our next lvl increase the devs should grant an abilitie that negates our minimum ranged requirements, probably won't happen, but it's something that would make since with our supposed greater ability as we gain lvls.  Eventually, and i know this won't happen but, I wuold like to see us gain an endless quiver ability or at minimum a temporary buff that lets us have unlimited ammo of a more powerful nature.  1min duration 5min recast lets us shoot free lightning bolts out of our bow or something with added dmg/effect etc. </p><p>I just re dung 80, and since playing so much over the last week, I'd have to resend my opinion on the melee spec aa's.  Been re running RoK and I wouldn't trade ranged for anything at this point but it is still an idea.  But definitely if so many are against it to the point of quitting, revise it for the melee to ranged ca convergeance.  Or i do like the idea of making extension extend the range of our melee ca's.  In all i support changes through aa because really there is enough dead weight in our aa tree's to make the necessary changes without impacting our aa spending negatively.  THat and in the case of the melee to ranged conversion you can keep both abilities and use either or.</p><p>I think they should retweak focus aim btw.  Since playing so much, I've noticed and missed the crit chance that was changed to chance to hit.  It is still useful but should have something else on there.  My 2cp on that, I think i've seen peeps recommending adding reuse/recast %'age reduction.</p>

[Neiloch]

I would imagine they think the minimum range on ranged Ca's is some sort of balancing factor which I can understand. If they had no minimum range they would just basically be melee CA's with huge range. Though with swashies running around that miragul charm+reach they can pretty much do this already heh. Conversion from spell to melee CA with several priest abilities has been done so its technically possible. Ideally (and this is ripped off from Vanguard) I would like to see second versions of most if not all of the melee CA's that are ranged versions. Such as 'Sneak Attack' and our stealth attacks, 'Bloody Reminder' and 'Lightning Strike'. The rest wouldn't make sense or be OP'd if they could do at range I would think. This way they can take advantage of some of our special ranged aspects/procs but in a close quarters situation we still have our melee versions. They can balance it out by making the ranged versions hit harder and longer reuse or something along those lines. Basically make them work different but in a long term parse (10-15 minutes) they would put out the same DPS. This would go along with being more 'ranger' like and less rogue/backstabber. Accuracy is going to be a big deal in this xpac so I'm not too upset with that. Plus when i would have that going in a raid I'd have a ridiculous amount of ranged crit that went to waste so didn't help out a huge amount.