The illusionist mythical change creates a big imbalance in enchanters.

[Glenolas]

<p>Some earlier dev has gone to great lengths to balance enchanters in terms or group power regen, and now another one  comes along and appears to be going to break them rather badly.Enchanters are designed to be the main group power providers for the game  and their mythical procs were specifically designed to enable this.   The current illusionist's mythical power regen proc  rather evenhandedly balances  the aggregate of the two  power regen benefits of the coercer's mythical.       It terms of group power regen, the two classes can currently be interchanged.    How can the myth proc be labeled "too powerful across the entire group" when it's benefits are nearly identical  to the other enchanter's mythical enabled group power regen benefits ? I'll illustrate the issue with power regen numbers for current TSO group regen for my regular guild play group (paladin, templar, fury, wizard, warlock and either enchanter), by merely swapping my mythed coercer and my mythed illusionist in an out of the group.  For those interested in more detail, I'll add that further down.Grand total:21510  total group regen, Coercer caused.21650  total group regen, Illusionist caused.This is about as balanced as it can get, given the very diverse methods of creating the regen between the two classes, and the diverse membership possible in the groups.It allows decisions to be made on group makeup to hinge on other issues, like hate transfer and healer amplification for the coercer, and time compensation and IA for the illusionist vs who's the better power regen.   As far as group power regen goes, at the moment either can fill in equally for the other.The exact effects will vary slightly group to group, as coercer benefits are percent based and the illusionist is a fixed number.  Now consider the the proposed SF change to the above totals:21510 total group regen, per minute, Coercer caused  (no change)12125 total group regen, per minute, Illusionist caused.  (8200 drop)Dividing the illusionist proc by 3 goes shifts the operating point drastically.   The new design point will mean beginning coercers will be least 160% of the group power regen rate of the any illusionist.  With suitable attention to gear,  the coercers can grow the ratio to 200% of the illusionist.   This, of course, eliminates illusionists from the enchanter group power regen mission.  Under no circumstances, in any group, will they even remotely approach the group power regen of coercers.   EQ2 will have gone from an almost perfectly balanced pair of classes doing group power regen to a drastic imbalance, and for no apparent game benefit.The question de jour is, of course, why are illusionists being nerfed out of their designated enchanter role?   What game benefit comes from it?   Was it carefully considered, and therefore deliberate, or an accidental oversight by a new dev who did not know the two enchanter's roles were implemented?  </p><p>I'm not advocating nerfing coercers.  I play them both.  I'm advocating leaving the situation as is.  It's not broken, and it's not overpowered.  It's one of the few SOE designs that's actually well balanced.   Don't change it.</p><p>A more detailed numbers discussion, for those that like to develop them on their own, or want understand the classes better:When a  coercer gets their mythical,  2 group power benefits are enabled:1.  Group wide (and raid wide) manaflow.   This is a strikingly good benefit and dominates the Coercer's power regen.  Manaflow is an AA item for enchanters, which regenerates 10% of the targets power.   A coercer has manaflow dedicated AA's and the mythical itself to speed up the reuse to 45 seconds,  so on a per minute basis,  the group regen benefit will be 13.3% of each member's power.  Gear can speed it up more, but I'm sticking to T2 gear sets for this discussion.  The coercer himself benefits from this manaflow event, with a net gain after cost of %5, so all 6 in the group benefit.   Note  also, that if the coercer casts the manaflow to another group in the raid,  7 people benefit.  The 6 in the target group, and the coercer himself.   I've used only "in same group regen" for the numbers above. Manaflow for the illusionist is unchanged by his myth.  It remains single target, 10%, has no manaflow dedicated AA's and his myth does not speed it up so baseline is 60sec recast.  He gets no net benefit from it himself, as cost=payback.   It plays it a trivial part of an illusionist's group total, about 1150 in the totals provided above.  </p><p>2. The coercer also gets a group wide proc that reduces power used by group members by 20%, for 22 seconds every minute.  (Improved from their similar fabled proc).   Group power not burned is no different than group power regenerated and flowed back.   All 6 group members benefit in proportion to their burn rates (the power displayed on the spells they cast while the proc is up).    Hard burning classes benefit more than afk's.  </p><p>Calculating the savings, and converting back to base power gives a range of   3.3% - 7.2% saving of their base power, per minute.   A mediocre sorcerer will benefit 5.5% of base power, a hard burning templar about 4%.    Tanks gain less, raiders reaching the cast speed cap gain much more.    Coercer Summary:  The two group power regen/savings procs enabled by a coercer's mythical total around 17.3% to 20.5% of their group member's base power levels, per minute.   The manaflow portion can be improved with runic recovery gear.  The mythical proc for the illusionist enables 1 group benefit.It causes each group member to be able to regen 342 power each time they damage the enemy, for up to 3 regens.   This will occur twice a minute, so on a per minute basis, each group member can recover 2052 power.   This is a fixed number per minute and cannot be improved with AA or gear.Building the numbers totals:</p><p>Both classes have  breeze and a manatap, which are similar in nature.  Coercers have a 2nd breeze, and a slightly better manatap, so before mythical effects are applied, they have a slight advantage in group power regen.  Total group power regen before applying the mythical, using master level spells, normalized to 1 minute, rounded to nearest 10:9960   Coercer 8090   Illusionist   Mythical based benefits for my group 11560  Coercer myth based benefits (applied within his own group)12310  Illusionist myth based benefits (the soon to dropped by 820<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 1150  Illusionist single target manaflowGrand total benefits to group (as in the above summary) : 21510  Coercer21550  Illusionist</p><p>The coercer benefit will be greater for higher powered groups, and/or for individuals with high burn rates (big cast speed improvements), as they are percent based.    Illusionists will provide more benefit to a lower power group and/or lower burn rates, as their benefits are fixed.   Somewhere between 11K and 12K, and around 5500 burn rate they are identical.    In either case the differences will be slight.   Subtracting 8200 from the illusionist drastically breaks the class balance.</p><p>Again, It's not broken, and it's not overpowered.  It's one of the few SOE designs that's actually well balanced.  Don't change it.</p><p>Glenolas</p>

[Jesdyr]

<p>You missed Savante for Illy. Also missed Channel and Cannibalize Thoughts for Coercer. Should also note that the Coercer's "Minds Eye" is an over cap regen as well. <a title="Enhance: Cannibalize Thoughts" href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Enhance:_Cannibalize_Thoughts"></a></p><p>Or maybe I just didnt see it in the wall of text ?</p>

[Rijacki]

<p>Illusionists have more non-power beneficial buffs than coercers (and more DPS potential). Coercers provide more power to 'balance' that. If illusionists' power generating capabilities are balanced to coercers', then coercers should get more buffs and dps capabilities to match illusionists in those.</p>

[Dasein]

<p><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Illusionists have more non-power beneficial buffs than coercers (and more DPS potential). Coercers provide more power to 'balance' that. If illusionists' power generating capabilities are balanced to coercers', then coercers should get more buffs and dps capabilities to match illusionists in those.</p></blockquote><p>The problem with this line of thinking is that it seeks to make up for deficiencies in the primary role of a class by boosting secondary roles. The primary role of chanters is mana regen - with other buffs and DPS being secondary, although still important.</p><p>Further, by nerfinf illy power regen abilities, this simply means raids will take even more chanters, as now you need both an illy for the buffs and a coercer to make up the lost power regen. For a class already over-represented on raids, this does not help the issue.</p>

[Glenolas]

<p><cite>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You missed Savante for Illy. Also missed Channel and Cannibalize Thoughts for Coercer. Should also note that the Coercer's "Minds Eye" is an over cap regen as well. <a title="Enhance: Cannibalize Thoughts" href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Enhance:_Cannibalize_Thoughts"></a></p><p>Or maybe I just didnt see it in the wall of text ?</p></blockquote><p>Cannibalize Thoughts is included in the  numbers developement section, as the coercer manatap.   (generic use of the term manatap, which several classes have.)    Channel is a powerful coercer spell, but I left it out because it doesn't contribute anything to the groups power regen.  It just rebalances existing power.  Some win, some lose, but group = net zero, or worse.</p><p>I also didn't bring up the fact that the illusionist regen proc isn't universal.  In several raid situations, the healers cannot get any benefit.  (Pinned at range = no melee,  spam heal, cure detrimental, cure curse, etc = no time or power to fire the 12 or so damage spells needed to assure the regen benefit).  This is a strong detrimental to the illusionist benefit.</p><p>Similarly, I ddn't complicate the issue with over cap, since it's tough to tell who has what gear and who else is in the group.   I did as fair as I could direct comparison with the two classes.</p><p>I just stuck to run- of- the- mill fights, where everything is working,  and normalized to one minute for comparasion.</p><p>Regaradless, the message of the post is "taking 8200" out of the illusionist group regen severly imbalances the mission.</p>

[Glenolas]

<p><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Illusionists have more non-power beneficial buffs than coercers (and more DPS potential). Coercers provide more power to 'balance' that. If illusionists' power generating capabilities are balanced to coercers', then coercers should get more buffs and dps capabilities to match illusionists in those.</p></blockquote><p>Their dps is virtually identical according to the math.  I've seen top end ones of both classes, and not so good ones and either way, they're within a few percent of each other, usually situationally dependent.   One clanked a spell the other didn't, etc</p><p>If you know the classes, you can tell which players have discovered how to play them, and which ones are still learning.  </p><p>As far as class differentiating buffs go,  I'm all for them.  That's why you have two classes, not one.</p><p>Coercers amp up hate for tanks,  and a single healer with coercive healing.   Illusioinists amp up one melee with IA,  one caster with TC.    Coercers are naturals for MT  and off tank groups,  illusionists for non tank groups, and a predator and a sorcerer always gets assigned to them for the IA and TC benefit. </p><p>Any other buffs are minor at best.  </p><p>Both should bring power regen in their suitcases...because they are both enchanters, and that's what they were designed to do.   An the design is working.    Why break it?</p>

[Eriol]

<p><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Illusionists have more non-power beneficial buffs than coercers (and more DPS potential). Coercers provide more power to 'balance' that. If illusionists' power generating capabilities are balanced to coercers', then coercers should get more buffs and dps capabilities to match illusionists in those.</p></blockquote><p>The problem with this line of thinking is that it seeks to make up for deficiencies in the primary role of a class by boosting secondary roles. <strong>The primary role of chanters is mana regen - with other buffs and DPS being secondary, although still important.</strong></p></blockquote><p>This is conjecture.  My opinion differs, <em>especially</em> in groups, not raids.  Chanters IMO offer buffs first, mez/CC second, and power 3rd, with DPS <em>possibly</em> a close tie for 3rd as well, (especially in groups, where mages SHOULD DPS as a large part of their role, not just be a buff bot).  All are important, but that's how I would rank their priority.  So it can be OK to have a power imbalance.</p><p>Now if most other things are equal, then the OP's point could be valid, but if the other parts have differences, then I can see there being situations where you want one type of chanter, and other situations where you want the other chanter.  I consider that GOOD.</p>

[Aanadorn68]

<p>I'm confused when I hear that Illy's do more dps than coercers.  From what I've seen, and yes I have a myth coercer AND a myth illy,  they are pretty darn equal.  Also in terms of group buffs they are pretty close in the dps they raise groupwide, if the illy has a very slight advantage in raising the groups dps it is surely more than balanced against the coercers increasing healing potential and hate increase for the tank AND  hate reduction for whoever he has enough concentration slots for.  Hmm, after writing it out it sounds like coercers have quite the advantage groupwide, but let's just call it even.</p><p>Even as things stand on live now coercers have always had a power regen advantage.  Take Channel, that's just such an insanely nice spell.  Fills pretty much all the groups power, Illy's have nothing like this instant power fill.  With AA's the timer is short enough on channel to be used once during a boss fight, which is usually when a power drain, or a long intense fight has rendered the group powerless.</p><p>Mana flow for coercers is also pretty nice.  First it's groupwide, so it's power to everyone in the group.  The Illy's, while being power for everyone in the group, does require action on the part of each and every group member for it to proc.  This is especially a problem for healers who don't understand they need to autoattack or cast a low level hostile spell to get the power regen to proc.  Sometimes they can't melee because of placement issues, ripostes, aoes, etc etc., and sometimes they cant cast hostile spells because they are too busy healing.  Realistically the Illy proc should proc off of healing spells, this is only fair seeing as how a coercers groupwide mana flow doesn't have any requirements other than the coercer having power.  Also in the same vein, the coercers mana flow can be used on any group in the raid, I don't see that option on the illy at all.</p><p>The point I'm making is NOT against coercers at all.  The point is that things were pretty well balanced already in terms of personal dps, group dps, buffs, utility, and power regen.  There may be things that slightly put balance in one camp over the other, but they are easily argued with something from the other side.  With the proc changes to the illy myth this seriously throws the balance out of whack quite a bit.</p><p>Devs please consider these points and really think about at the very least balancing chanters against each other.</p>

[Jesdyr]

<p><cite>Glenolas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Channel is a powerful coercer spell, but I left it out because it doesn't contribute anything to the groups power regen.  It just rebalances existing power.  Some win, some lose, but group = net zero, or worse.</blockquote><p>Channel at master level does infact increase the groups total power. I do not know the exact amount.</p>

[Andu]

<p>Enchanters arguing amongst themselves about who has been stuffed the most this expac is just a stupid waste of time. We've both been royally lubed up and used.</p><p>Coercers regen more power, we have more damage buffs. In all honesty Coercers are not our issue. The backwards perception that we are overpowered due to needing 4 of us in a raid that led to this was the real problem.</p><p>EDIT - Coercers do more DPS than illys, end of. The reason Illys appear to do more is becasue they are always in the mage group getting troub loving. Again though, the difference is not worth squabbling over.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>I still want illys over coercers in my mage group, and coercers over illys in my melee/tank group.</p>

[Glenolas]

<p><cite>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Glenolas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Channel is a powerful coercer spell, but I left it out because it doesn't contribute anything to the groups power regen.  It just rebalances existing power.  Some win, some lose, but group = net zero, or worse.</blockquote><p>Channel at master level does infact increase the groups total power. I do not know the exact amount.</p></blockquote><p>The explanation on the spell itself implies it does not, and I've never seen it do it.  Improving the spell level just cuts the loss to a smaller number (maybe zero for master).</p>

[Glenolas]

<p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I still want illys over coercers in my mage group, and coercers over illys in my melee/tank group.</p></blockquote><p>Me too.   But where to find them?   Generally major nerfs to a class do not inspire their continued presence.   If the mythical was okay for 27 months,  why isn't it okay now?</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>Who cares? Sentinel's Fate will obviously be balanced around lower power regen, just as Kunark and Shadow Odyssey were balanced around the insanely high power regen. Having an illy or coercer in your group is still FAR better than not having either one.</p><p>It's not like guilds are suddenly going to sit enchanters; you will still make up 1/6 of all raid slots.</p>

[LivelyHound]

No guilds wont sit them, the illies will just sit themselves and play something else. I only now know one chanter who is staying an illy. All the others I knew are shelved like mine or betraying to coercer. So sure raids would still like to take a number of illies, there just wont be the population to fill those spots with them. I know thats conjecture at the mo, but it's what I'm already starting to see and as SF progresses I expect to see more and more disenfranchised chanters (especially illies) and therefore less and less people on those toons. They took a large proportion of our pwr regen away and gave no additional pwr tools so even if we want to provide pwr we have no reasonable way to do it. Many people took up chanters due to the perception of OP'd ness same as many people took up SK's. Now thats gone and those toons will gather dust. Only loyal illies will remain and it just isnt that fun making everyone else look good whilst you fall further and further behind. Remembering, albeit off topic, that the class also got the shaft in other areas. Being a buff bot is not fun.

[Carthr]

<p>Has anyone tested the mythical buff to see if it's critting?</p>

[wickermanuk]

<p><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Illusionists have more non-power beneficial buffs than coercers (and more DPS potential).</p></blockquote><p>LOL @ illys having more dps potential than coercers. Seriously this really annoys me, it shows me that you do not have a clue what you are talking about, end of story.</p><p>The ONE AND ONLY fact that stops coercers destroying illys on the parse is that they rarely get a appropriate group. I have seen some of the best coercers world wide been placed into a 'mage group' with a UT and its devastating!</p>

[wickermanuk]

<p><cite>LivelyHound wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>No guilds wont sit them, the illies will just sit themselves and play something else. I only now know one chanter who is staying an illy. All the others I knew are shelved like mine or betraying to coercer. So sure raids would still like to take a number of illies, there just wont be the population to fill those spots with them. I know thats conjecture at the mo, but it's what I'm already starting to see and as SF progresses I expect to see more and more disenfranchised chanters (especially illies) and therefore less and less people on those toons.  </blockquote><p>I know of one guild that was clearing all content (contested included) who lost 4 of their 5 illys in a month lol. They normally ran with 3 on a raid with the other being part-time.</p>

[Daine]

<p>I recently leveled an illy with the intent of her being my main in SF, and now she's 90 with her myth converted.  I'm very disppointed in their mana regen abilities; we can keep power up just fine, by making spells cost less, but if there's a power drain or somebody dies, there's not much we can do to refill people's power quickly, as opposed to coercers (and now troubs).  I'd like to see an AA dedicated to manaflow reuse, or to make it groupwide like a coercer's myth.  My guild doesn't go back and do Trak (for the robe that's almost required for a good illy now), and I just dropped a few hundred plat on kaborites+lower tier masters that aren't upgraded, I'm really hoping the power regen is upped a bit.  I understand the dps being nerfed, since we're good utility.  But if you nerf both our dps AND our utility, we're in trouble, especially since our new AAs aren't that good =(</p>

[Aule]

<p><cite>Glenolas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Glenolas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Channel is a powerful coercer spell, but I left it out because it doesn't contribute anything to the groups power regen.  It just rebalances existing power.  Some win, some lose, but group = net zero, or worse.</blockquote><p>Channel at master level does infact increase the groups total power. I do not know the exact amount.</p></blockquote><p>The explanation on the spell itself implies it does not, and I've never seen it do it.  Improving the spell level just cuts the loss to a smaller number (maybe zero for master).</p></blockquote><p>You've got several inaccuracies Glenolas in regards to Coercers.  I'll help with some of them.</p><p>Channeling - there is an improvement in the amount of the power to the group, it's not just a some win / some lose effect.  It also crits.  You can have 3 people just resurrected and 3 people at 85% or so power and hit channeling and have the whole group at about 90% except for the coercer, who'll be lower, and the fighter who will be at 100%.  When the spell was just Channel, then yeah, master level kept the power loss to 0%.  When it was improved to channeling it gained a positive return.</p><p>It's been a long time since I put in extensive testing on how channeling works, but as far as I can tell the formula goes something like this (rough estimate):Sum up the power for every person present in the groupCheck for crit- Yes?  add appropriate crit factor including crit boostAdd modifier based on mastery of the spell, for Master it's in the 20-25% rangeDivide the total by 5Give this amount to each person in the group</p><p>If you cast the spell with only 2 or 3 people in the group, you'll see that if you start with everybody at 100% you'll end at around 40%, so there's something wonky going on with the method of distribution as well.</p><p>Mana flow - mana flow a heal, and so crits, and is affected by crit boost.  Sure it displays 10% as the effect, but with a decent amount of gear and a crit it's more like 20%.  It's not a 5% gain on the coercer either, the coercer receives the effect for every target affected by the spell, not just once.  This basically means casting mana flow = coercer at 100% power.</p><p>Being an ability now, the Illusionist effect should crit and be affected by crit boost, which it was not before.  So even though the triggers was reduced to 1/3, the actual effect per trigger should be about double, which isn't as much of a nerf as it initially sounds like, though it is still a nerf.</p><p>You're also not making any reference to Savante, which is a good spell when used correctly, but for some reason all the illy's I see seem to think it's a complete waste of time to cast it, since it doesn't improve their dps, so they don't bother (and then wonder why the coercers are having to mana flow their group).  Hopefully you're one of the illy's who understands how the spell works and so casts it at a time other than when the entire group is already out of power.</p><p>In regards to the dps conversation.  Coercers have higher personal dps potential than illusionists do.  Illusionists add more dps to the group/raid than coercers do.  Illusionists are also more generic/versatile in who they buff.  These seem like fair trade offs.  I have to put coercive healing on a priest, you can put time compression on anybody, including a priest, etc.</p><p>The primary role of enchanters is utility, not mana regen.  Mana regen falls under the utility category, but so does making everybody else in your group better because you happen to be present.  Both enchanters make the group/raid they're in better.  That's why we're still stuck with a bunch of enchanters who are mediocre at enchanter, but can't play the class they'd rather be playing and are better at.  Since illusionist is more versatile, it has been my experience that the enchanter more likely to be mediocre is the illusionist.  That's strictly because of the player though, not the class.</p><p>Incidentally, the same thing happens with bards too.  Most of the bards I know have one of each bard, and most of them prefer dirge over troubador, so troubador ends up being the bard most likely to be mediocre since it's the one more non-bards play in order to get a raid slot.</p>

[Jeepned2]

<p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I still want illys over coercers in my mage group, and coercers over illys in my melee/tank group.</p></blockquote><p>You being a Conjuror, don't really care what you want. But if you're lucky I'll give you a dehate if you're in the Dirge group.</p>

[Ol]

<p><cite>Carthrax wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Has anyone tested the mythical buff to see if it's critting?</p></blockquote><p>The illy myth IS critting and IS effected by crit bonus, but not potency.</p>

[vexrm]

<p><cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I still want illys over coercers in my mage group, and coercers over illys in my melee/tank group.</p></blockquote><p>You being a Conjuror, don't really care what you want. But if you're lucky I'll give you a dehate if you're in the Dirge group.</p></blockquote><p>You're right. Who cares what the Conji wants? Remember to Time Waro, Time Compression, and Synergism their pet though!</p>

[Jeepned2]

<p><cite>vexrm wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You're right. Who cares what the Conji wants? Remember to Time Waro, Time Compression, and Synergism their pet though!</p></blockquote><p>Actually with our normal raid setup there of two casters in the Dirge group. An Illy and some other caster, could be conjuror, or the extra wizard, or whatever else might be thrown  in there.  So I dehate the Illy and the extra mage. On occasion I have been asked to dehate pet instead which I'm ok with. Since I'm in the OT group, I normally have at least two open concentration slots to give out that dehate.</p><p>As far as the arguement about mana regen, Coercers have always out regened Illys by a huge margin. You seriously disguarded the true power of Canniblized Thoughts and Channeling. First of all, you can almost keep Canniblized Thoughts up continuously and if you use the AA to improve recast time on Mana Flow and Channeling then you really can boost you mana output.</p><p>As far as channeling goes, It always crits for me.  ALWAYS as does all the rest of my mana regen spells that can crit. That comes from having 125% Crit chance. With Channeling (Master), I can have my whole group killed, Dirge rezz, cast Mana Flow almost immediately, once it procs I'm at around 70-80% mana everyone else in the groujp will be at 10-20%. Then I immediately cast Channeling. Everyone goes to 80-90% mana. That is a huge amount of mana in a very short period of time and is a feat that an Illy can't even get close to. Nor do I  have to worry about anyone in my group doing something just to get mana regen to proc for them. Mine always work as long as they are alive. Sorry, can't help you if you're dead.</p><p>On any long, hard fight, even those where the mob doesn't do a mana killing AOE, about half way into the fight, look at the group with the Illy and the group with a Coercer and look at the huge diffence in their mana status. The Illy's group will always be lower on mana.  If it's a mob with no mana eating AOE, there is no reason for the Coercer's group to ever be below 90% unless he/she is just being a little lazy for the fight and is concentratimg more on DPS. A quick Mana Flow and Cannibilized Thoughts and all is good again.</p><p>Oh and don't forget, my Breeze does a group wide 10% ca/casting speed buff. So on those few rare occassions when I'm grouped with an Illy, they always drop their equivilant buff. Plus mine regens more mana.</p><p>So although I don't doubt that they nerfed the Illys mana regen abilities, I don't agree with the statement that we where ever equal in the amount of mana regen that we give out since myths hit the streets.</p>

[EvilAstroboy]

<p><span style="background-color: #f3f5ff; color: #444444;">*double post*</span></p>

[EvilAstroboy]

<p><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Illusionists have more non-power beneficial buffs than coercers (and more DPS potential). Coercers provide more power to 'balance' that. If illusionists' power generating capabilities are balanced to coercers', then coercers should get more buffs and dps capabilities to match illusionists in those.</p></blockquote><p>More DPS potential? Not in this expansion! Coercers are easily doing 10k more than Illys, even more if they get a Troub. All while having better power regen.</p>

[vexrm]

<p>Okay, as Jeepned pointed out the critting is a problem. As an illusionist, I wish my power saver abilities could crit, however they don't. In fact many of my utility spells don't crit. The Devs seem to be pushing us towards more utility, but not giving us mechanics to make it worth it.</p><p>I love power feeding. I have a whole guild that burns power like mad. Just keeping them in power last expansion was semi challenging. This expansion it's keeping me extremely busy. Sure, they could put on power proccing gear, but why should they when I can keep them going when they are wearing better gear?</p><p>And then a power drain fight pops ups. I'm completely worthless. I can't keep up with the drain. I'm going all out and just can't keep anything up.</p><p>Put the guild coercer in the same position. He has worse gear than I do. He sweats a bit, but every one keeps power.</p><p>Yes, they have better abilities for emergencies, but it's insane the difference between us.</p>