SK and Paladin in SF [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Nero

02-09-2010, 12:38 PM

SK(1)Though SK is a dps tank, SK's crit mods are lower than Warriors, the pure tank.(2)Spell crit 68% of Crusader's Int line was lost. So, SK's dps became very low.(3)SK is a class which have almost no snap aggro. Despite this, snap aggro of Sacrament was lost.(4)SK has no feature in SF unlike Paladin.Paladin(1)Stonewall of TSO AA became 8 seconds stoneskin.(2)Heretic's Destruction is a very awesome buff.(3)Because Paladin can control the timing of granting hate of Holy Ground, Paladin can get very high hate in a short time.(4)There is also a AA which shortens the recast of Sigil of Heroism. Heroic Leadership.(5)Paladin has more avoidance than SK thanks to Blocking Mastery. In addition, Paladin can cast more than 2000 Ward per 8 seconds thanks to Devout Faith.The ability of tank(keep alive and hold aggro) of Paladin is higher than SK evidently.New class-balance dev seems to like more Paladin than SK.

dellaripa

02-09-2010, 02:22 PM

So I guess SK's will only be able to pull 5 linked encounters now instead of 8.Must be rough.

RafaelSmith

02-09-2010, 02:24 PM

Obadiah

02-09-2010, 02:45 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><img src="data:image/jpg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wBDAAkGBwgHBgkIBwgKCgkLDRYPDQwMDRsUFRAWIB0iIiAdHx 8kKDQsJCYxJx8fLT0tMTU3Ojo6Iys/RD84QzQ5Ojf/2wBDAQoKCg0MDRoPDxo3JR8lNzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nz c3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzf/wAARCABeAEcDASIAAhEBAxEB/8QAGwAAAgMBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAAABAUAAgYBAwf/xAAyEAACAQMDAQYDBwUAAAAAAAABAgADBBESITEFEyJBYXGRFF GxFSMygaHh8QZSctHS/8QAGQEAAwEBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQF/8QAHBEBAQEBAQADAQAAAAAAAAAAAAERAiEDBBIx/9oADAMBAAIRAxEAPwB3csxJ3PvFzgltyfeMa6NkmA1FM8J639D sDq5PvOjIPJz6yMrZzFPU6xp3tnUw4xW7PvZVW28PnzKibDUs2 fGWGcczzp6mVSwAJ5GDPQg4HEolwe9zOgd+eYzJvq2zADbJuzu FY8b/AEMkFt6mbpB8s59jJE0kNaw5gVSM7hNjiLnG8Ex4FSTE/XbenTordBMsKyM+/IAP+o9C4O0X9aZD0+tSIyxAY+QBEcOzRJAPeByDx6TpGIusb1q fT7dqwDKF0ll5GDjJ9o0K5xKz1MnimnecK4yx4Anqo3lLxtNs2 PHA/WKnIHtTipqOxJJklLbU9QKg9ZJNa41dxT5xFNUYcg/ONepLcFMWhpq2dy/gPKJq1tWL96u+fJiPpiXjHl6Ab48oo6uiA16bHBamx3/xOPp+gjEWOpsPVqHbxZv+oH1iwt6FjUrDvVVAKg+v8xY0jOWF0 q0bigzDc5UnfZhx75mpo3FvTt6IqV6akIO6zgEbftMtdW9WhUo v2SU0KhjqwRtv6DgzU2zWVVqqJb9m1MrncY3GdsH8vyll+cc+0 LQN3awfyRS30EF6l1CiLZiVqhf7mpkD9YbWKJsAPeeDItWm6kf iGD5wyHjnTGD0KVRMEMM5kl7BSiCkVxp48NpJFimtuU34i6smS Y4uV3MW1llVhyFRSrGD3lib19AxvhSCeRzx65hxwM5+UDrdT+D ZilPW7LpyBuPQxNeWd6vSrWH9SratWL0iCyrngaTt7wDq999n1 barSGkuWVlPiP5+sY9Sej1C9oVVp3PxFPvM1XTg+W3rLtaJUPa 1UVqngSMkSpPVKWN38YiseSIzt1GN4s+HNN+0pg7cgeMLpV8Mp zlG4Pjn5esasweV7MBgOJJZagYb8GSINXcLuYurIM7x3XpZBim 5TSYrHNz6X3BxnEV16JILNjJjSqut4LdpikdoOjmF3T6Ck1GYb k/SGVLYscYxOdJXNLUFzhjkRstAMc/WVKrPSU0ArEHiD3VDsssgyrfiX5/vHda0bUdpQWXaLl1gZFSuAhUF80znDY3HkZIRf9PIqfdDHpJBO PpleniIuobEqATNHeHAOPCIqq66pJ+cWOX4bsArR04JHMCvgNw BwI8qoAkTXx3x5RyOnil/QGXtq9Jhgg5EfLT7mRzMlTuDa9VpsoyG7pE2VudaCPGlrqIrnD fino9D7shRvO6e8IWijRxJZ9d4UJYht2GZI9oWxqHbSJISWo6+ xJcf/9k=" /></blockquote>+1Nice utterly misleading representation of the expansion. Lost 68 spell crit. LOL. You know ... there's a REASON for that.

Aull

02-09-2010, 04:28 PM

I have an sk as well but I do know that he is has been to powerful when compairing him to my zerker, monk and bruiser. My sk has the best all round performace and is the easiest to play of those fighters. So now I will need to get off my buttocks and work just like the other fighters to prove my worth if I play him once these changes happen.Now there will be some challange to playing my sk.

Gungo

02-09-2010, 05:48 PM

shadowknights really are not going to get much sympathy. They are still one of the 2 best tanks in game.

RafaelSmith

02-09-2010, 05:52 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>shadowknights really are not going to get much sympathy. They are still one of the 2 best tanks in game.</blockquote>Especially ones that post misleading information like the OP did in this thread.

Aull

02-09-2010, 09:07 PM

Well I enjoy my sk very much but I don't think that sk's should continue to out perform other tanks in tanking, aggro, dps, and utility combined. Right now there are no other fighters that can outperform the sk in all these areas.I still believe that sk's should be ranked as an offensive tank but in doing so they shouldn't be just a tough as a tank who is known for being defensive.I don't think that sk's will be trash in SF, but they shouldn't be easy mode tanking either.

Nero

02-09-2010, 11:47 PM

In SF, Paladin can cast Sigil of Heroism per 90 seconds and Holy Ground per 60 seconds.And Amends keeps on 41%.On the other hand, SK's Death March remains T6 level.And Sacrament was nerfed and became inconvenient.Surely, SK won't become easy-mode tank.But, by contraries, Paladin seems to become another easy-mode tank in SF.

Rahatmattata

02-09-2010, 11:49 PM

<cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nerf paladins!</blockquote>

scalzo

02-10-2010, 12:54 AM

SK's are already OPed what did you expect?

Nero

02-10-2010, 01:45 AM

<cite>scalzo wrote:</cite><blockquote>SK's are already OPed what did you expect?</blockquote>Do you know that I have talked about next expansion, Sentinel's Fate?In Sentinel's Fate, SK is nerfed and is not overpowered anymore.And I don't claim that Paladin should be nerfed.But I think that SK's nerf should be a little more affectionate.After I saw Beta, I thought that SK's nerf is an overkill.

Obadiah

02-10-2010, 02:01 AM

<cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote>After I saw Beta, I thought that SK's nerf is an overkill.</blockquote>Every Fighter feels that way about their class, myself included. Must mean we're all in good shape.

dellaripa

02-10-2010, 02:05 AM

Nero

02-12-2010, 06:57 AM

And Bruiser and SK.Bruiser(1)Wild Beating: AE snap aggro per 30 seconds(2)Control Hate: single-target snap aggro per 45 seconds(3)Mantis Leap: 16 seconds single-target/AE snap aggro per 90 seconds(4)Staggering Blow: single-target snap aggro per 60 seconds(5)Devide And Conquer: AE snap aggro (and Forces half of the target encounter to target and attack Bruiser) per 90 seconds(6)Rescue: single-target snap aggro per 180 seconds(7)Sneering Asault: single-target snap aggro per 180 secondsShadowknight(1)Rescue: single-target snap aggro per 180 seconds(2)Sneering Asault: single-target snap aggro per 180 seconds(3)Touch of Death(Mythical): Forces target to change their selected target to caster per 6 minutes(Sacrament is no longer snap aggro and Death March remains T6 level.)Sentinel's Fate is loveless to Shadowknight.

Rahatmattata

02-12-2010, 07:23 AM

I'm sure you'll be fine dude... really...In the mean time:<blockquote><img src="data:image/jpg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wBDAAkGBwgHBgkIBwgKCgkLDRYPDQwMDRsUFRAWIB0iIiAdHx 8kKDQsJCYxJx8fLT0tMTU3Ojo6Iys/RD84QzQ5Ojf/2wBDAQoKCg0MDRoPDxo3JR8lNzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nz c3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzf/wAARCABeAEcDASIAAhEBAxEB/8QAGwAAAgMBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAAABAUAAgYBAwf/xAAyEAACAQMDAQYDBwUAAAAAAAABAgADBBESITEFEyJBYXGRFF GxFSMygaHh8QZSctHS/8QAGQEAAwEBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQF/8QAHBEBAQEBAQADAQAAAAAAAAAAAAERAiEDBBIx/9oADAMBAAIRAxEAPwB3csxJ3PvFzgltyfeMa6NkmA1FM8J639D sDq5PvOjIPJz6yMrZzFPU6xp3tnUw4xW7PvZVW28PnzKibDUs2 fGWGcczzp6mVSwAJ5GDPQg4HEolwe9zOgd+eYzJvq2zADbJuzu FY8b/AEMkFt6mbpB8s59jJE0kNaw5gVSM7hNjiLnG8Ex4FSTE/XbenTordBMsKyM+/IAP+o9C4O0X9aZD0+tSIyxAY+QBEcOzRJAPeByDx6TpGIusb1q fT7dqwDKF0ll5GDjJ9o0K5xKz1MnimnecK4yx4Anqo3lLxtNs2 PHA/WKnIHtTipqOxJJklLbU9QKg9ZJNa41dxT5xFNUYcg/ONepLcFMWhpq2dy/gPKJq1tWL96u+fJiPpiXjHl6Ab48oo6uiA16bHBamx3/xOPp+gjEWOpsPVqHbxZv+oH1iwt6FjUrDvVVAKg+v8xY0jOWF0 q0bigzDc5UnfZhx75mpo3FvTt6IqV6akIO6zgEbftMtdW9WhUo v2SU0KhjqwRtv6DgzU2zWVVqqJb9m1MrncY3GdsH8vyll+cc+0 LQN3awfyRS30EF6l1CiLZiVqhf7mpkD9YbWKJsAPeeDItWm6kf iGD5wyHjnTGD0KVRMEMM5kl7BSiCkVxp48NpJFimtuU34i6smS Y4uV3MW1llVhyFRSrGD3lib19AxvhSCeRzx65hxwM5+UDrdT+D ZilPW7LpyBuPQxNeWd6vSrWH9SratWL0iCyrngaTt7wDq999n1 barSGkuWVlPiP5+sY9Sej1C9oVVp3PxFPvM1XTg+W3rLtaJUPa 1UVqngSMkSpPVKWN38YiseSIzt1GN4s+HNN+0pg7cgeMLpV8Mp zlG4Pjn5esasweV7MBgOJJZagYb8GSINXcLuYurIM7x3XpZBim 5TSYrHNz6X3BxnEV16JILNjJjSqut4LdpikdoOjmF3T6Ck1GYb k/SGVLYscYxOdJXNLUFzhjkRstAMc/WVKrPSU0ArEHiD3VDsssgyrfiX5/vHda0bUdpQWXaLl1gZFSuAhUF80znDY3HkZIRf9PIqfdDHpJBO PpleniIuobEqATNHeHAOPCIqq66pJ+cWOX4bsArR04JHMCvgNw BwI8qoAkTXx3x5RyOnil/QGXtq9Jhgg5EfLT7mRzMlTuDa9VpsoyG7pE2VudaCPGlrqIrnD fino9D7shRvO6e8IWijRxJZ9d4UJYht2GZI9oWxqHbSJISWo6+ xJcf/9k=" /></blockquote>

Nero

02-12-2010, 07:34 AM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm sure you'll be fine dude... really...In the mean time:<blockquote><img src="data:image/jpg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wBDAAkGBwgHBgkIBwgKCgkLDRYPDQwMDRsUFRAWIB0iIiAdHx 8kKDQsJCYxJx8fLT0tMTU3Ojo6Iys/RD84QzQ5Ojf/2wBDAQoKCg0MDRoPDxo3JR8lNzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nz c3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzf/wAARCABeAEcDASIAAhEBAxEB/8QAGwAAAgMBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAAABAUAAgYBAwf/xAAyEAACAQMDAQYDBwUAAAAAAAABAgADBBESITEFEyJBYXGRFF GxFSMygaHh8QZSctHS/8QAGQEAAwEBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQF/8QAHBEBAQEBAQADAQAAAAAAAAAAAAERAiEDBBIx/9oADAMBAAIRAxEAPwB3csxJ3PvFzgltyfeMa6NkmA1FM8J639D sDq5PvOjIPJz6yMrZzFPU6xp3tnUw4xW7PvZVW28PnzKibDUs2 fGWGcczzp6mVSwAJ5GDPQg4HEolwe9zOgd+eYzJvq2zADbJuzu FY8b/AEMkFt6mbpB8s59jJE0kNaw5gVSM7hNjiLnG8Ex4FSTE/XbenTordBMsKyM+/IAP+o9C4O0X9aZD0+tSIyxAY+QBEcOzRJAPeByDx6TpGIusb1q fT7dqwDKF0ll5GDjJ9o0K5xKz1MnimnecK4yx4Anqo3lLxtNs2 PHA/WKnIHtTipqOxJJklLbU9QKg9ZJNa41dxT5xFNUYcg/ONepLcFMWhpq2dy/gPKJq1tWL96u+fJiPpiXjHl6Ab48oo6uiA16bHBamx3/xOPp+gjEWOpsPVqHbxZv+oH1iwt6FjUrDvVVAKg+v8xY0jOWF0 q0bigzDc5UnfZhx75mpo3FvTt6IqV6akIO6zgEbftMtdW9WhUo v2SU0KhjqwRtv6DgzU2zWVVqqJb9m1MrncY3GdsH8vyll+cc+0 LQN3awfyRS30EF6l1CiLZiVqhf7mpkD9YbWKJsAPeeDItWm6kf iGD5wyHjnTGD0KVRMEMM5kl7BSiCkVxp48NpJFimtuU34i6smS Y4uV3MW1llVhyFRSrGD3lib19AxvhSCeRzx65hxwM5+UDrdT+D ZilPW7LpyBuPQxNeWd6vSrWH9SratWL0iCyrngaTt7wDq999n1 barSGkuWVlPiP5+sY9Sej1C9oVVp3PxFPvM1XTg+W3rLtaJUPa 1UVqngSMkSpPVKWN38YiseSIzt1GN4s+HNN+0pg7cgeMLpV8Mp zlG4Pjn5esasweV7MBgOJJZagYb8GSINXcLuYurIM7x3XpZBim 5TSYrHNz6X3BxnEV16JILNjJjSqut4LdpikdoOjmF3T6Ck1GYb k/SGVLYscYxOdJXNLUFzhjkRstAMc/WVKrPSU0ArEHiD3VDsssgyrfiX5/vHda0bUdpQWXaLl1gZFSuAhUF80znDY3HkZIRf9PIqfdDHpJBO PpleniIuobEqATNHeHAOPCIqq66pJ+cWOX4bsArR04JHMCvgNw BwI8qoAkTXx3x5RyOnil/QGXtq9Jhgg5EfLT7mRzMlTuDa9VpsoyG7pE2VudaCPGlrqIrnD fino9D7shRvO6e8IWijRxJZ9d4UJYht2GZI9oWxqHbSJISWo6+ xJcf/9k=" /></blockquote></blockquote>Are you teasing me?What is the picture?I can't understand the meaning of the picture.I am a Japanese.Therefore there may be any variance by differences in culture.So, please stop teasing.

Maveric_LOL

02-12-2010, 10:24 AM

ROFL an SK crying about being under powered. Dude you cant just bust out jokes like that and expect people to take you seriously. FFS i was in the middle of taking a sip of my drink i almost ruined my laptop.SRSLY

AziBam

02-12-2010, 12:25 PM

<cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm sure you'll be fine dude... really...In the mean time:<blockquote><img src="data:image/jpg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wBDAAkGBwgHBgkIBwgKCgkLDRYPDQwMDRsUFRAWIB0iIiAdHx 8kKDQsJCYxJx8fLT0tMTU3Ojo6Iys/RD84QzQ5Ojf/2wBDAQoKCg0MDRoPDxo3JR8lNzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nz c3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzf/wAARCABeAEcDASIAAhEBAxEB/8QAGwAAAgMBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAAABAUAAgYBAwf/xAAyEAACAQMDAQYDBwUAAAAAAAABAgADBBESITEFEyJBYXGRFF GxFSMygaHh8QZSctHS/8QAGQEAAwEBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQF/8QAHBEBAQEBAQADAQAAAAAAAAAAAAERAiEDBBIx/9oADAMBAAIRAxEAPwB3csxJ3PvFzgltyfeMa6NkmA1FM8J639D sDq5PvOjIPJz6yMrZzFPU6xp3tnUw4xW7PvZVW28PnzKibDUs2 fGWGcczzp6mVSwAJ5GDPQg4HEolwe9zOgd+eYzJvq2zADbJuzu FY8b/AEMkFt6mbpB8s59jJE0kNaw5gVSM7hNjiLnG8Ex4FSTE/XbenTordBMsKyM+/IAP+o9C4O0X9aZD0+tSIyxAY+QBEcOzRJAPeByDx6TpGIusb1q fT7dqwDKF0ll5GDjJ9o0K5xKz1MnimnecK4yx4Anqo3lLxtNs2 PHA/WKnIHtTipqOxJJklLbU9QKg9ZJNa41dxT5xFNUYcg/ONepLcFMWhpq2dy/gPKJq1tWL96u+fJiPpiXjHl6Ab48oo6uiA16bHBamx3/xOPp+gjEWOpsPVqHbxZv+oH1iwt6FjUrDvVVAKg+v8xY0jOWF0 q0bigzDc5UnfZhx75mpo3FvTt6IqV6akIO6zgEbftMtdW9WhUo v2SU0KhjqwRtv6DgzU2zWVVqqJb9m1MrncY3GdsH8vyll+cc+0 LQN3awfyRS30EF6l1CiLZiVqhf7mpkD9YbWKJsAPeeDItWm6kf iGD5wyHjnTGD0KVRMEMM5kl7BSiCkVxp48NpJFimtuU34i6smS Y4uV3MW1llVhyFRSrGD3lib19AxvhSCeRzx65hxwM5+UDrdT+D ZilPW7LpyBuPQxNeWd6vSrWH9SratWL0iCyrngaTt7wDq999n1 barSGkuWVlPiP5+sY9Sej1C9oVVp3PxFPvM1XTg+W3rLtaJUPa 1UVqngSMkSpPVKWN38YiseSIzt1GN4s+HNN+0pg7cgeMLpV8Mp zlG4Pjn5esasweV7MBgOJJZagYb8GSINXcLuYurIM7x3XpZBim 5TSYrHNz6X3BxnEV16JILNjJjSqut4LdpikdoOjmF3T6Ck1GYb k/SGVLYscYxOdJXNLUFzhjkRstAMc/WVKrPSU0ArEHiD3VDsssgyrfiX5/vHda0bUdpQWXaLl1gZFSuAhUF80znDY3HkZIRf9PIqfdDHpJBO PpleniIuobEqATNHeHAOPCIqq66pJ+cWOX4bsArR04JHMCvgNw BwI8qoAkTXx3x5RyOnil/QGXtq9Jhgg5EfLT7mRzMlTuDa9VpsoyG7pE2VudaCPGlrqIrnD fino9D7shRvO6e8IWijRxJZ9d4UJYht2GZI9oWxqHbSJISWo6+ xJcf/9k=" /></blockquote></blockquote>Are you teasing me?What is the picture?I can't understand the meaning of the picture.I am a Japanese.Therefore there may be any variance by differences in culture.So, please stop teasing.</blockquote>The more appropriate description would be to say that he is "mocking" you. He is presenting you a picture of a tiny violin playing a sad song. There is a joke about "playing the world's tiniest violin just for you" said to people that are whining.Nero, Grave Sacrament was nerfed. Sharply. The thing is, it probably needed it. (I play an SK btw.) I am confident we are still going to be fine for overall hate. We are going to have to rework our AAs a bit but it will still be ok. I for one DON'T anticipate any significant new aggro problems with the expansion relative to the other tanks. In truth, I kind of think we are going to have MORE sustained aggro than before if we spec properly although that's hard to prove since we haven't been able to measure threat before this expansion. Yes, we don't have an "I win" button with Grave Sacrament anymore. Thing is, that was it's downfall too. That spell took the hate of everything around it whether you wanted it or not for it's full duration. This was true regardless of what other tanks used for abilities and snaps. It was too much. Would I like to have a 2nd AE snap now? Yes. Maybe in the future we'll get one. I certainly don't see us as "[Removed for Content]" in the meantime. And no, I'm also not one of those who spouted the constant OP refrain we've had to deal with this last expansion. Grave Sacrament, probably more than anything else, contributed greatly to feeding the fires of all those that did spew out that OP phrase. The one thing I'd like to see is for it's recast to be shortened a bit now in it's current form.Paladins have had the best aggro in the game for ages. Nothing is new or surprising there. Since TSO, I haven't viewed that as a problem at all since we have been fine in that department too. Their HG was badly nerfed at the same time as GS.Can you really argue that Brawlers didn't need help? Even with more snaps are brawlers still likely to be the tank of choice for MT? OT? Instance? I doubt it. They'll do it better now though. Sorry, this turned out pretty long. (woot! wall of text!) I'm probably not going to reply to anymore of your threads as I really think they are off base. Take it for what it's worth whether you agree or disagree. I'm out, and believe that we'll be able to do our jobs just fine going forward.

Solu

02-12-2010, 12:33 PM

Off topic but yes SOE really needs to just stop making brawlers a tank class and tune us for stand and bang dps. Less than predators but right up there with swash/brig given the lack of utility.But yes SK dps will face plant in SF which isn't great since it was already low when in dps mode compared to other tanks. Still be e z mode solo but be hard to grab a spot other than tank in a group/raid.

Siatfallen

02-12-2010, 03:32 PM

<cite>Solude wrote:</cite><blockquote>Off topic but yes SOE really needs to just stop making brawlers a tank class and tune us for stand and bang dps. Less than predators but right up there with swash/brig given the lack of utility.But yes SK dps will face plant in SF which isn't great since it was already low when in dps mode compared to other tanks. Still be e z mode solo but be hard to grab a spot other than tank in a group/raid.</blockquote>On brawlers:This thread is not about brawlers. Let's not hijack yet another thread for a "fix brawlers plz" crusade. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />I've agreed with the above for the longest time - there are multiple threads dedicated to this topic elsewhere. Go invade those, and see the argument against your points; it also seems like a lost cause and it being debated here will do nothing good. Just saying.Given beta reports, we're being moved to be a tank class. Start levelling up a rogue. It's pretty clear the side you (read: we) used to see in the class is no longer supported, and hasn't been since the launch of tSO. I get defending your point of view, but two expansions in, it's no longer worth stirring up a fuss over.If you disagree with the above, please, let's keep this topic clean. Send me an answer in PM format.SKs (the topic at hand, yay):So wait, if a tank class (has the shadowknight ever been anything else, pardon my ignorance here?) cannot get on raids except by tanking, that's a balance issue?SK DPS is low compared to other fighters? Seriously, what kind of SKs have you been playing with during tSO?I agree with you as far as single target DPS goes, though.SKs are, unless they revised the tSO AA lines, also among the fighters that give the best utility in the form of group buffs. Even if they were sort-of-low DPS for a fighter, sufficient survivability high sustained aggro and low on snap aggro I think they'd be perfectly fine as a class with their buffs to help out.- And that's hardly a decent description of the class as I saw it in tSO.

Gilasil

02-12-2010, 03:40 PM

<cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote>And Bruiser and SK.Bruiser(1)Wild Beating: AE snap aggro per 30 seconds(2)Control Hate: single-target snap aggro per 45 seconds(3)Mantis Leap: 16 seconds single-target/AE snap aggro per 90 seconds(4)Staggering Blow: single-target snap aggro per 60 seconds(5)Devide And Conquer: AE snap aggro (and Forces half of the target encounter to target and attack Bruiser) per 90 seconds(6)Rescue: single-target snap aggro per 180 seconds(7)Sneering Asault: single-target snap aggro per 180 secondsShadowknight(1)Rescue: single-target snap aggro per 180 seconds(2)Sneering Asault: single-target snap aggro per 180 seconds(3)Touch of Death(Mythical): Forces target to change their selected target to caster per 6 minutes(Sacrament is no longer snap aggro and Death March remains T6 level.)Sentinel's Fate is loveless to Shadowknight.</blockquote>So you're saying that bruisers are more op then SKs in SF? Does that mean I'll be able to bump pesky SKs from being MT in the groups and raids I'm in?LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!Thanks. I needed a good laugh.Ok I'm not in beta so can't say how things are changed (will in a few days). But, for example, I recall control hate as something which moves you all of one position up or down and it requires a bunch of AA to get as it's an endline bruiser ability. It's only redeaming characteristic is it's the only positional deaggro I can get -- obviously something to be used when DPSing as opposed to tanking. I dropped it on my last respec months ago.Since several of these are endline abilities requiring a bunch of AAs it would only be fair to put in all the SK endline abilities.Also, I really don't think snap aggro tools tell the whole story. They're important yes, but they're not the whole story. I've tanked for people for whom I constantly had to use snap aggro tools just to hold hate. No thanks.Although to be fair, holding aggro has never been my primary problem except for out of encounter situations which none of these address.

Rahatmattata

02-12-2010, 03:56 PM

<cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote>Are you teasing me?What is the picture?I can't understand the meaning of the picture.I am a Japanese.Therefore there may be any variance by differences in culture.So, please stop teasing.</blockquote>"Playing the world's violin, is an insult you say to someone when they get whiny and sad. When someone is complaining about anything e.g. "I'm so alone", "No one likes me!", "I cut my finger!!!". People respond with, "Ooh, I'm playing the world's smallest violin." This is referring to the sadness of a violin tune. And the smaller the violin, the sadder the tune. When you say "I'm playing the world's smallest violin." you are being sarcastic. The person is all sad and whiny, and you're saying (basically) 'I don't care how sad you are, what you're saying is annoying! Grow up!'"Your English is very good by the way. Infinitly better than my Japanese.

Nero

02-12-2010, 08:23 PM

Azian,Thank you very much for replying politely and kindly.OK, I will wait Sentinel's Fate.If I find problems about SK, I will point it to devs.Until then, I'll wait.Thank you very much.Rahatmattata,I haven't known that there is such a joke in English.Thank you so much.

Maamadex

02-13-2010, 03:45 AM

People whine and complain so much in these threads, it sounds almost like Beta. And nobody even knows how it'll pan out yet.

Vlahkmaak

02-13-2010, 03:03 PM

Blxckheart

02-13-2010, 07:33 PM

<cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>scalzo wrote:</cite><blockquote>SK's are already OPed what did you expect?</blockquote>Do you know that I have talked about next expansion, Sentinel's Fate?In Sentinel's Fate, SK is nerfed and is not overpowered anymore.And I don't claim that Paladin should be nerfed.But I think that SK's nerf should be a little more affectionate.After I saw Beta, I thought that SK's nerf is an overkill.</blockquote>You have to love how every SK likes to quietly ignore the fact they are OP as hell in TSO, always trying to "KEEP IT IN SF GUISE", like they're trying to mask the fact they are so overpowered Its not even funny. Tbh, for setting the precedent for DPS to go crazy at the beggining of every fight and spoiling DPS so much, the class should just be reverted to the way It was in RoK, where good SK's shined and didnt complain. The whole fact that one fighter got buffed and the others got nerfed or ignored would make developers of successful games laugh at the poor production. Unless there's going to still be a fighter revamp, this game is just spiraling into even more failure than It already is.. There's only like, two 'populated' servers iirc.Even more hilarious, is SK look at their new AAs and complain, but dont look at what they have in their old. I mean seriously, who has a better EOF tree than SK. Who has a better Shadows tree for that matter? None of the tanks do. 2500 unconscious health, hateful respite, and reaver.. 10% casting speed? Seriously? AND 5% reuse? 25% wpn dmg mod, 5% accuracy, improved taunts, and even aura of the crusader. You are OP as hell, don't make me facepalm any further.

Nero

02-13-2010, 10:26 PM

<cite>Blxckheart wrote:</cite><blockquote>2500 unconscious health, hateful respite, and reaver.. 10% casting speed? Seriously? AND 5% reuse? 25% wpn dmg mod, 5% accuracy, improved taunts, and even aura of the crusader.</blockquote>2500 unconscious healthIn a raid, 2500 unconscious health is useless.Hateful RespiteGood one. But Guardians have more useful stoneskins, ToS, Block and Dragoon's Reflex. And in SF, Guardians will have a very useful damage-reduction, Last Man Standing.ReaverGood one. But is it enough to cover SK's very low survivability?10% casting speed, 5% reuseDo you know that SKs' spell casting speed before RoK was too slow?25% wpn dmg mod, 5% accuracySKs are offensive fighter.Aura of the CrusaderLOL. Guardian, the stoneskin king, envies the other fighters' stoneskin. Stoneskin under 50% of max HP. Good one, but it isn't enough.

Netty

02-14-2010, 01:03 AM

Nero... Give up... SK are op now as it is. And they still will be Op if not even more op in SF.Have you ever played this game or have you check out the forums and started to think that SK:s look cool and want to make up things about them? Since you clearly dont understand your class at all.

Nero

02-14-2010, 03:48 AM

<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>Have you ever played this game or have you check out the forums and started to think that SK:s look cool and want to make up things about them? Since you clearly dont understand your class at all.</blockquote>My SK is full T3 armor, some fabled accessories, 200 AAs, full master spells.I just can't forgive the most undeeded and most undesired situation of SKs before RoK(4 years!!!), and just have been angry against it until now.

Phelon_Skellhound

02-14-2010, 05:41 AM

I am pretty sure we will be fine.. even with the mods we are still better off than we were during RoK... and even those adjustments arent enough to proclaim the sky is falling... DM is just one of those spells that will not be upgraded every expansion as with most DoF spells...

Blxckheart

02-14-2010, 08:50 AM

<cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Blxckheart wrote:</cite><blockquote>2500 unconscious health, hateful respite, and reaver.. 10% casting speed? Seriously? AND 5% reuse? 25% wpn dmg mod, 5% accuracy, improved taunts, and even aura of the crusader.</blockquote>2500 unconscious healthIn a raid, 2500 unconscious health is useless. No, Its not. Its basically another 2500 health from a raiding/grouping standpoint.Hateful RespiteGood one. But Guardians have more useful stoneskins, ToS, Block and Dragoon's Reflex. And in SF, Guardians will have a very useful damage-reduction, Last Man Standing. As if we needed anymore of this, when we cant even keep the target(s) on us half the time because your class singlehandedly changed the view of DPS for more than a YEAR, which wont be fixable unless they bring your class down again. What we actually needed was more aggro, and this went ignored.ReaverGood one. But is it enough to cover SK's very low survivability? lolol, SK DONT have low survivability. Imagine that?10% casting speed, 5% reuseDo you know that SKs' spell casting speed before RoK was too slow?Referring to your Shadows Tree line that adds casting speed AND reuse to your buff. This is overpowered as can be, and unargueably so.25% wpn dmg mod, 5% accuracySKs are offensive fighter. I agree, but it doesnt change the fact no other fighter class was compensated for this much gain in threat, even if it is DPS.Aura of the CrusaderLOL. Guardian, the stoneskin king, envies the other fighters' stoneskin. Stoneskin under 50% of max HP. Good one, but it isn't enough. In an entire expansion with every mob stun/stifle/fear on incomming, stoneskins vs control effects.. Are you seriously going to keep bringing this stoneskin thing up again? We're looking at tank viability. Conjuror get stoneskin too, but they dont tank, do they?</blockquote>Dont worry, Its only normal that you would try to keep your class OP as hell. Its okay, I forgive you, Id do the same thing.Its funny how every SK stresses the Warrior survivability as if it means something in fixing or balancing our archetypes. Nope, the only balancing factor is DPS VS SURVIVABILITY.. NOT threat vs survivability.

Bruener

02-14-2010, 03:19 PM

<cite>Blxckheart wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its funny how every SK stresses the Warrior survivability as if it means something in fixing or balancing our archetypes. Nope, the only balancing factor is DPS VS SURVIVABILITY.. NOT threat vs survivability.</blockquote>Wrong. And thankfully SOE knows that it is all about Agro v Survivability. Agro being the same just means that everybody would use the one that takes the hits the best. That lesson was learned long ago by SOE.

Blxckheart

02-14-2010, 07:34 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Blxckheart wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its funny how every SK stresses the Warrior survivability as if it means something in fixing or balancing our archetypes. Nope, the only balancing factor is DPS VS SURVIVABILITY.. NOT threat vs survivability.</blockquote>Wrong. And thankfully SOE knows that it is all about Agro v Survivability. Agro being the same just means that everybody would use the one that takes the hits the best. That lesson was learned long ago by SOE.</blockquote>And the system is failing, which prompted the whole fighter revamp idea, which prompted the ideas of finding ways to fix threat for the tanks to make them more self-reliant. And honestly, I don't give any credit to people who listen to the playerbase when it comes to balancing classes in an MMO.. No other successful game is doing that, and the playerbase doesnt know what it wants, they only want what their competition has. But in this case, Its justified that Guards would want more threat, because Its needed for functionality. But yeah, listening to the playerbase? This tells me two things. Either SoE is trying to make a "promise stint" for a dying playerbase, or they simply just dont know how to balance them, only make them overpowered as HELL, like Shadowknights in TSO. Take a moment to enjoy the truth behind that statement. It's their track record since the launch of EQ2 to make Flavor of the Month. Ask yourself why the game only has two populated servers, and you'll discover It's due mostly to unpopular development.

Phelon_Skellhound

02-15-2010, 05:44 AM

Their vission of the plate tanks has really nipped them in the behind this past 2 expansions.. going from single target tanks to ae tanks... All tanks - in general - want is to accomplish the same thing without losing class defining traits and lore behind em.. If the single target tanks get more ae threat boosts then great good for them.. I dont think we need another tank x ability from another class to be given to another, just thier own existing abilities adjusted for the better.. Guardians needed some loving and I sure hope they got some in SF

Macross_JR

02-15-2010, 06:12 AM

Lordsguard

02-20-2010, 07:20 PM

Just chnage your aa lines...under sta you can get alot of your crit back. The agility line is better for the aoe autoattack...int line is now dead. This game changes all the time...just have to adapt is all.

TerrorFirmer

02-22-2010, 08:13 PM

Prestissimo

02-24-2010, 09:11 AM

<cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote>In SF, Paladin can cast Sigil of Heroism per 90 seconds and Holy Ground per 60 seconds.And Amends keeps on 41%.On the other hand, SK's Death March remains T6 level.And Sacrament was nerfed and became inconvenient.Surely, SK won't become easy-mode tank.But, by contraries, Paladin seems to become another easy-mode tank in SF.</blockquote>If paladins are so rediculously easy mode OP tank everything without any effort that every SK will be crying to betray over, I'm sure paladin spells will not remain comparatively cheaper, and I'm sure we'll see the paladins come off of the endangered species list. On my server, there were maybe 8 total paladins that still actively played past the casual pug of befallen level difficulty zones prior to SF launch compared to when you asked for a tank you got a tell from at least 6 shadowknights. My warden healed more brawlers tanking zones than paladins in the zone tanking or not in the last 2 months.Holy ground and sigil may be on a faster reuse, but considering that the paladins dps is no where near what sks have, I think it's perfectly fair. Either lose the dps to gain faster reuse on snaps, or keep the poor reuse on snaps to keep the good dps.Paladins manipulate and additionally siphon hate through a (easily diminished) transfer, shadowknights generate it. A truely good paladin is the one that learned the tricks of how to generate more hate, and a truely good shadowknight is the one that learned the tricks of how to manipulate hate.I don't want to see the shadowknights crippled, I just want to see them have to actually work to get agro, much like a paladin does when you have more than one respectable dpser or when you have more than one candidate for your hate transfer and they don't seem to understand this concept of transfers getting averaged down.

Jacck

02-24-2010, 01:06 PM

Nero, seriously, don't ever post again. Saying DPS has dropped low is laughable. Case in point, SK in my guild, parsing 18k+ on trash when he is watching TV with his hand hitting buttons randomly for the game. Survivability, hmm, don't ever see anything wrong with his survivability, ever. I don't even feel like pulling up logs and parses to prove you wrong. Ever single SK on these forums would call you crazy for what you are saying about SK's being the bottom of the pile as far as tanks are concerns.Oh, I can pull up Google and translate this into any language you desire if you have any problem understanding what I am saying.

Nero

02-25-2010, 12:25 AM

<cite>Jacck@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nero, seriously, don't ever post again. Saying DPS has dropped low is laughable. Case in point, SK in my guild, parsing 18k+ on trash when he is watching TV with his hand hitting buttons randomly for the game. Survivability, hmm, don't ever see anything wrong with his survivability, ever. I don't even feel like pulling up logs and parses to prove you wrong. Ever single SK on these forums would call you crazy for what you are saying about SK's being the bottom of the pile as far as tanks are concerns.Oh, I can pull up Google and translate this into any language you desire if you have any problem understanding what I am saying.</blockquote>You don't need to translate.I understood that you mock me.

Trakanom

02-25-2010, 02:10 PM

<cite>Jacck@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nero, seriously, don't ever post again. Saying DPS has dropped low is laughable. Case in point, SK in my guild, parsing 18k+ on trash when he is watching TV with his hand hitting buttons randomly for the game. Survivability, hmm, don't ever see anything wrong with his survivability, ever. I don't even feel like pulling up logs and parses to prove you wrong. Ever single SK on these forums would call you crazy for what you are saying about SK's being the bottom of the pile as far as tanks are concerns.Oh, I can pull up Google and translate this into any language you desire if you have any problem understanding what I am saying.</blockquote>I don't watch tv. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />But anyway.. SK are still in great shape even with the "nerfs."

goryf

03-08-2010, 01:22 AM

My SK still does better in zones than pallies with more aa and weaker gear.BUT.... the pally has started to shine a bit and i am having to turn my head when someone talks about them.I think SK and pally relations are finally getting a bit even.The SK had to endure a long time of helplessness. then we got OP (and don't try to deny it, i play nothing but my SK and i even admite it) now we are brought down a peg it seems normal. i am actually having to use my head.now pallies have been suffering from the start too and i think it is about time they enjoy a bit of OP.maybe then there won't be so many SK on the servers and my SK will get more action. lolbut hey. what do i know. i suffer from tankitist.

Rahatmattata

03-11-2010, 03:09 AM

<cite>Goryfis@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>now pallies have been suffering from the start too and i think it is about time they enjoy a bit of OP.</blockquote>You would make a great game dev.And pallies have been suffering <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0a4d7238daa496a758252d0a2b1a1384.gif" border="0" /> Really <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0a4d7238daa496a758252d0a2b1a1384.gif" border="0" /> They've had it pretty sweet IMO and have been staying under the radar.

Bruener

03-11-2010, 01:52 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Goryfis@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>now pallies have been suffering from the start too and i think it is about time they enjoy a bit of OP.</blockquote>You would make a great game dev.And pallies have been suffering <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0a4d7238daa496a758252d0a2b1a1384.gif" border="0" /> Really <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0a4d7238daa496a758252d0a2b1a1384.gif" border="0" /> They've had it pretty sweet IMO and have been staying under the radar.</blockquote>/agreeI find it hilarious when people say that Pallies have been suffering...I can't think of a time they were ever in a bad spot

RafaelSmith

03-11-2010, 05:39 PM

All the players i know both in my guild and others that play fighter classes seem pretty pleased with things thus far into the expansion. I know people that play/raid with all the fighter classes and all seem pretty content atm. And while I dont really feel OP like SKs on my Guard, I at least do no longer feel handicapped. When things go bad for groups that I MT....at least now I know its my fault or my groups and not some game mechanic out of my control.

Rast

03-12-2010, 03:35 PM

I can remember times when looking for raids that I was laughed at because NOONE wanted a pally in the raid EVER. The few times I was able to get into them (even after I joined a raiding alliance) was when they needed a third tank or agro bot or to simply fill in as an extra body/rezbot and even then I wasn't allowed to have any decent buffs because I wasn't worth them.Even when I was finally accepted as a raid tank, I was always questioned by people outside the guild who were raiding with us about why we used a pally and not a real tank and some wouldn't raid with us because of that.

Azurro

03-13-2010, 08:12 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Goryfis@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>now pallies have been suffering from the start too and i think it is about time they enjoy a bit of OP.</blockquote>You would make a great game dev.And pallies have been suffering <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0a4d7238daa496a758252d0a2b1a1384.gif" border="0" /> Really <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0a4d7238daa496a758252d0a2b1a1384.gif" border="0" /> They've had it pretty sweet IMO and have been staying under the radar.</blockquote>/agreeI find it hilarious when people say that Pallies have been suffering...I can't think of a time they were ever in a bad spot</blockquote>At level 50 paladins where rez bots on raids and nothing else. At level 60 they lost that spot to dirges and just didn’t get invited to raids at all. At level 70 they started to get a bit better but the stigma of the MT must be a Guardian didn’t really start to fade until level 80. If you think Pally’s have been in good shape since day one you either have not been playing this game very long or have a alternate agenda. I have been looking closely at the hate numbers generated by Pally’s, SK’s and Guards on raids and while yes the Pally’s and SK’s are generating some great threat numbers now the Guard blows both of them away by like 3 to 1 in threat position increases. Before the Holy Ground nerf Pally’s where the kings of moving from 0 to 100 on the hate meter fast. Now that crown is firmly back in the hands of the Guardians. Both a Pally and SK can take agro from a Guard but neither can keep it with the position increase abilities. And neither has the snap agro abilities to jump from revived to 100 on the hate meter quickly in a 24 man raid like a Guard.

Gungo

03-15-2010, 05:34 PM

Now that we have had a good deal of raids completed and SF is well on its way. Ya the OP is completely baseless. Shadowknights are still one of the best tanks in raids. If someone had to choose 3 tanks for SF. It would be guard (mt), Shadowknight (offtank), bruiser (brawler type for certain fights). If you wanted to choose 4 tanks it would be a choice of either bezerker or paladin, but either works fine.Tanks are well balanced this expac. Zerkers, shadowknights, paladins are very well balanced to each other for thier role of offtank. Yes guards are better defensively but they are much worse as offtanks. And as long as SOE does not give guards anymore significant AOE agro generating hate abilites they will be balanced with thier role.

TerrorFirmer

03-16-2010, 11:22 PM

I don't see why people say that paladins aren't solid enough to be a main tank. They have survivability in spades. They give up a lot of single target dps in order to have that survivability, but who cares? Paladins are meant to be beat on and absorb hits, not outparse everyone else (although I can do this). With the change to stonewall, they have a fighting chance against deathtouches and other gross things that used to bane them, even. This expansion has been great for both crusaders, and SKs who cry about the other tanks getting a little better crit bonus probably haven't looked at their parses in groups lately compared to everyone else. On multi target encounters as a paladin I can do tremendous damage (although not as much as a warlock, or wizard, obviously). I'm sure SKs can do my damage x 1.2 if they put as much effort into their character as I did. Maybe then they won't cry about guardians and zerks. Stop comparing apples to oranges. Each tank has pros and cons. I think they are all relatively balanced at the moment, with the only determining factor being player skill.Crusaders make great main tanks, btw, not just off tanks. Just because people want to find a place to stick their token guard doesn't mean either crusader, especially a paladin, isn't capable of main tanking a raid force. I've done it before, and when I care to I will do it again :-p Plus, I hear Goooookmaaah saves the raid.

Couching

03-17-2010, 04:25 AM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now that we have had a good deal of raids completed and SF is well on its way. Ya the OP is completely baseless. Shadowknights are still one of the best tanks in raids. If someone had to choose 3 tanks for SF. It would be guard (mt), Shadowknight (offtank), bruiser (brawler type for certain fights). If you wanted to choose 4 tanks it would be a choice of either bezerker or paladin, but either works fine.Tanks are well balanced this expac. Zerkers, shadowknights, paladins are very well balanced to each other for thier role of offtank. Yes guards are better defensively but they are much worse as offtanks. And as long as SOE does not give guards anymore significant AOE agro generating hate abilites they will be balanced with thier role.</blockquote>I think you are under estimated paladin a lot. Paladins have less dps than sk but they have slightly survivability advantage and aggro management over sk. The few k dps difference didn't mean much comparing to today's raidwide dps. I would say they are even in general.Also, I don't really agree that bruisers are the better choice of brawler in raid. Bruisers have slightly utility advantage over monks and monks have slightly survivability advantage over bruisers in this xpac. To judge which one is better, it depends on the role of the brawler in raid.If the brawler in raid is just a buff bot and dps, then sure bruiser may be a better choice. However, if the brawler in raid is active and skillful in tanking, monk could be the better choice because of the slightly survivability advantage over bruiser. Even though, bruiser is still good enough to do all the tanking in raid.All in all, tanks are well balanced and there isn't a best tank setup in this xpac. If there was one, it's mostly because of players instead of classes.The real imbalanced part of fighters is in heroic content, not raid. When survivability in heroic content is so trivial for every fighter, aoe dps and aoe aggro management are the only factors for most players when they are looking for a group tank.Any fighter with aoe rescue has significant aggro advantage over fighters without it in heroic instances especially some harder instances.Any aoe fighter has significant dps over single target tanks in heroic instances.On the contrary, single target tanks didn't get anything in return in heroic content when the survivability is so trivial for every fighter.

Gungo

03-17-2010, 05:34 PM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now that we have had a good deal of raids completed and SF is well on its way. Ya the OP is completely baseless. Shadowknights are still one of the best tanks in raids. If someone had to choose 3 tanks for SF. It would be guard (mt), Shadowknight (offtank), bruiser (brawler type for certain fights). If you wanted to choose 4 tanks it would be a choice of either bezerker or paladin, but either works fine.Tanks are well balanced this expac. Zerkers, shadowknights, paladins are very well balanced to each other for thier role of offtank. Yes guards are better defensively but they are much worse as offtanks. And as long as SOE does not give guards anymore significant AOE agro generating hate abilites they will be balanced with thier role.</blockquote>I think you are under estimated paladin a lot. Paladins have less dps than sk but they have slightly survivability advantage and aggro management over sk. The few k dps difference didn't mean much comparing to today's raidwide dps. I would say they are even in general.Also, I don't really agree that bruisers are the better choice of brawler in raid. Bruisers have slightly utility advantage over monks and monks have slightly survivability advantage over bruisers in this xpac. To judge which one is better, it depends on the role of the brawler in raid.If the brawler in raid is just a buff bot and dps, then sure bruiser may be a better choice. However, if the brawler in raid is active and skillful in tanking, monk could be the better choice because of the slightly survivability advantage over bruiser. Even though, bruiser is still good enough to do all the tanking in raid.All in all, tanks are well balanced and there isn't a best tank setup in this xpac. If there was one, it's mostly because of players instead of classes.The real imbalanced part of fighters is in heroic content, not raid. When survivability in heroic content is so trivial for every fighter, aoe dps and aoe aggro management are the only factors for most players when they are looking for a group tank.Any fighter with aoe rescue has significant aggro advantage over fighters without it in heroic instances especially some harder instances.Any aoe fighter has significant dps over single target tanks in heroic instances.On the contrary, single target tanks didn't get anything in return in heroic content when the survivability is so trivial for every fighter.</blockquote>I never claimed otherwise. As i said before i think tanks this expac are the most balanced I have seen in 5 years of playing. I think paladins are fine, I think monks are fine. You could switch any of the 3 offtanks without much issues. You coudl switch a bruiser for a monk without much issues. I would still take a guardian over anyother tank to be maintank, but it is possible a paladin may be comparable.Regarding single target tanks. Every tank recieved some extra aoe agro abilites and every tank can tank every heroic instance. There hasnt been a post claiming otherwise.

Bruener

03-17-2010, 06:34 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now that we have had a good deal of raids completed and SF is well on its way. Ya the OP is completely baseless. Shadowknights are still one of the best tanks in raids. If someone had to choose 3 tanks for SF. It would be guard (mt), Shadowknight (offtank), bruiser (brawler type for certain fights). If you wanted to choose 4 tanks it would be a choice of either bezerker or paladin, but either works fine.Tanks are well balanced this expac. Zerkers, shadowknights, paladins are very well balanced to each other for thier role of offtank. Yes guards are better defensively but they are much worse as offtanks. And as long as SOE does not give guards anymore significant AOE agro generating hate abilites they will be balanced with thier role.</blockquote>I think you are under estimated paladin a lot. Paladins have less dps than sk but they have slightly survivability advantage and aggro management over sk. The few k dps difference didn't mean much comparing to today's raidwide dps. I would say they are even in general.Also, I don't really agree that bruisers are the better choice of brawler in raid. Bruisers have slightly utility advantage over monks and monks have slightly survivability advantage over bruisers in this xpac. To judge which one is better, it depends on the role of the brawler in raid.If the brawler in raid is just a buff bot and dps, then sure bruiser may be a better choice. However, if the brawler in raid is active and skillful in tanking, monk could be the better choice because of the slightly survivability advantage over bruiser. Even though, bruiser is still good enough to do all the tanking in raid.All in all, tanks are well balanced and there isn't a best tank setup in this xpac. If there was one, it's mostly because of players instead of classes.The real imbalanced part of fighters is in heroic content, not raid. When survivability in heroic content is so trivial for every fighter, aoe dps and aoe aggro management are the only factors for most players when they are looking for a group tank.Any fighter with aoe rescue has significant aggro advantage over fighters without it in heroic instances especially some harder instances.Any aoe fighter has significant dps over single target tanks in heroic instances.On the contrary, single target tanks didn't get anything in return in heroic content when the survivability is so trivial for every fighter.</blockquote>I never claimed otherwise. As i said before i think tanks this expac are the most balanced I have seen in 5 years of playing. I think paladins are fine, I think monks are fine. You could switch any of the 3 offtanks without much issues. You coudl switch a bruiser for a monk without much issues. I would still take a guardian over anyother tank to be maintank, but it is possible a paladin may be comparable.Regarding single target tanks. Every tank recieved some extra aoe agro abilites and every tank can tank every heroic instance. There hasnt been a post claiming otherwise.</blockquote>These last 2 statements are pretty much on. Every fighter can tank every instance in this game no problem. The only place I would argue with Couching is when talking about this. The only time "AE" tanks have this huge advantage over "ST" tanks is when they are way geared beyond the instances anyway. Yes as a fully decked out SK I am going to be able to run the zone faster than our Guard. Back it up to the place where each tank is equally geared "heroic" gear and the discrepency is not there. Everybody that raids trivializes heroic content and it is ridiculous to compare the raid geared tanks doing that content.Other than that things are looking very nice across the board. Everybody knows the Guard is the best choice for MT still. The OT's can be swapped out any way and its not even a hiccup in the raid. Brawlers got their lost spot back.All I have to say is I am so glad the original "tank" revamp didn't go thru and that the way things are right now in SF it is a much better.

RafaelSmith

03-17-2010, 06:56 PM

I agree things now really do seem more balanced than ever in terms of tanks being able to serve their purpose across all game's content.On my Guard I may not smoke thru instances, pull entire rooms or top DPS parse like an SK can but I can get thru the instance in reasonable time without the frustration that existed in TSO. We got enough tweaks here and there with AAs and increase to the vaule of +threat and taunts that any failure to do my job is my fault or that of my groups and not some game imposed handicap. The instances so far seem to be better balanced in terms of AE -vs- ST than in TSO which is nice. For the heavy AE fights things are not really that much better than before for Guard but with a Coercer along that has thier new end-line its doable instead of impossible or frustrating.Ive also noticed that I can gear/spec my Guard as I prefer (i.e as defensive as possible) and still be effective instead of being forced down some path not really fitting for my vision of what a Guard should be.While I no longer raid on my Guard as the raid force I am in now already had a Guard I do see that our Zerker or Pally can fill the OT spot very well and if needed the MT spot. On some fights we even swap things and our Guard is OT and does just fine. We dont have an SK but everyone knows they can fill any raid tank spot just fine.I still think SK is OP when you take into account everything they can do but as long as I am not frustrated and can be effective when I play my Guard i could care less.I too am glad that we got what we got instead of that horrid overboard tank revamp. Scrapping that thing was perhaps the only good design decision SOE has made in a long time =P

Couching

03-17-2010, 08:02 PM

<cite>ruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>I never claimed otherwise. As i said before i think tanks this expac are the most balanced I have seen in 5 years of playing. I think paladins are fine, I think monks are fine. You could switch any of the 3 offtanks without much issues. You coudl switch a bruiser for a monk without much issues. I would still take a guardian over anyother tank to be maintank, but it is possible a paladin may be comparable.Regarding single target tanks. Every tank recieved some extra aoe agro abilites and every tank can tank every heroic instance. There hasnt been a post claiming otherwise.</blockquote>These last 2 statements are pretty much on. Every fighter can tank every instance in this game no problem. The only place I would argue with Couching is when talking about this. The only time "AE" tanks have this huge advantage over "ST" tanks is when they are way geared beyond the instances anyway. Yes as a fully decked out SK I am going to be able to run the zone faster than our Guard. Back it up to the place where each tank is equally geared "heroic" gear and the discrepency is not there. Everybody that raids trivializes heroic content and it is ridiculous to compare the raid geared tanks doing that content.Other than that things are looking very nice across the board. Everybody knows the Guard is the best choice for MT still. The OT's can be swapped out any way and its not even a hiccup in the raid. Brawlers got their lost spot back.All I have to say is I am so glad the original "tank" revamp didn't go thru and that the way things are right now in SF it is a much better.</blockquote>I am not talking about over geared tank, with raid gear, on heroic content.The fact is that most SF heroic instances are fairly easy and can be steamrolled by most players with TSO T2-T3 gear.When I said fighters are fairly balanced, I am referring to guard vs zerker, sk vs pal and bruiser vs monk, not ST vs AOE tank. For the concept of ST vs AOE tank, it's still not balanced at all.Currently, there are only two single target tanks left in this game, guardian and monk.You said guardian monoplized MT position in raid and as the trade off, they are worse than other aoe tanks in heroic content.Then how about monk? We didn't monoplized any spot in raid nor heroic nor solo content.Sure, any good monk can still get heroic content done but our dps and aggro is still far behind aoe tanks without anything in reutrn.

Bruener

03-17-2010, 08:33 PM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>I never claimed otherwise. As i said before i think tanks this expac are the most balanced I have seen in 5 years of playing. I think paladins are fine, I think monks are fine. You could switch any of the 3 offtanks without much issues. You coudl switch a bruiser for a monk without much issues. I would still take a guardian over anyother tank to be maintank, but it is possible a paladin may be comparable.Regarding single target tanks. Every tank recieved some extra aoe agro abilites and every tank can tank every heroic instance. There hasnt been a post claiming otherwise.</blockquote>These last 2 statements are pretty much on. Every fighter can tank every instance in this game no problem. The only place I would argue with Couching is when talking about this. The only time "AE" tanks have this huge advantage over "ST" tanks is when they are way geared beyond the instances anyway. Yes as a fully decked out SK I am going to be able to run the zone faster than our Guard. Back it up to the place where each tank is equally geared "heroic" gear and the discrepency is not there. Everybody that raids trivializes heroic content and it is ridiculous to compare the raid geared tanks doing that content.Other than that things are looking very nice across the board. Everybody knows the Guard is the best choice for MT still. The OT's can be swapped out any way and its not even a hiccup in the raid. Brawlers got their lost spot back.All I have to say is I am so glad the original "tank" revamp didn't go thru and that the way things are right now in SF it is a much better.</blockquote>I am not talking about over geared tank, with raid gear, on heroic content.The fact is that most SF heroic instances are fairly easy and can be steamrolled by most players with TSO T2-T3 gear.When I said fighters are fairly balanced, I am referring to guard vs zerker, sk vs pal and bruiser vs monk, not ST vs AOE tank. For the concept of ST vs AOE tank, it's still not balanced at all.Currently, there are only two single target tanks left in this game, guardian and monk.You said guardian monoplized MT position in raid and as the trade off, they are worse than other aoe tanks in heroic content.Then how about monk? We didn't monoplized any spot in raid nor heroic nor solo content.Sure, any good monk can still get heroic content done but our dps and aggro is still far behind aoe tanks without anything in reutrn.</blockquote>Honestly I thought monks would be given a little more like Bruisers seemed to pick up at the last minute. I do know we added a Bruiser to our roster and we did not carry a brawler for the good majority of TSO.

Gungo

03-17-2010, 08:59 PM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>I never claimed otherwise. As i said before i think tanks this expac are the most balanced I have seen in 5 years of playing. I think paladins are fine, I think monks are fine. You could switch any of the 3 offtanks without much issues. You coudl switch a bruiser for a monk without much issues. I would still take a guardian over anyother tank to be maintank, but it is possible a paladin may be comparable.Regarding single target tanks. Every tank recieved some extra aoe agro abilites and every tank can tank every heroic instance. There hasnt been a post claiming otherwise.</blockquote>These last 2 statements are pretty much on. Every fighter can tank every instance in this game no problem. The only place I would argue with Couching is when talking about this. The only time "AE" tanks have this huge advantage over "ST" tanks is when they are way geared beyond the instances anyway. Yes as a fully decked out SK I am going to be able to run the zone faster than our Guard. Back it up to the place where each tank is equally geared "heroic" gear and the discrepency is not there. Everybody that raids trivializes heroic content and it is ridiculous to compare the raid geared tanks doing that content.Other than that things are looking very nice across the board. Everybody knows the Guard is the best choice for MT still. The OT's can be swapped out any way and its not even a hiccup in the raid. Brawlers got their lost spot back.All I have to say is I am so glad the original "tank" revamp didn't go thru and that the way things are right now in SF it is a much better.</blockquote>I am not talking about over geared tank, with raid gear, on heroic content.The fact is that most SF heroic instances are fairly easy and can be steamrolled by most players with TSO T2-T3 gear.When I said fighters are fairly balanced, I am referring to guard vs zerker, sk vs pal and bruiser vs monk, not ST vs AOE tank. For the concept of ST vs AOE tank, it's still not balanced at all.Currently, there are only two single target tanks left in this game, guardian and monk.You said guardian monoplized MT position in raid and as the trade off, they are worse than other aoe tanks in heroic content.Then how about monk? We didn't monoplized any spot in raid nor heroic nor solo content.Sure, any good monk can still get heroic content done but our dps and aggro is still far behind aoe tanks without anything in reutrn.</blockquote>Monks like bruisers recieved the same extra hate added to our crappy aoe atk.Monks also received the same reinforcement type ability bruiser received from mantis leap.Monks also received an ability that turned all thier taunts into positionals and added damage reductions, while bruiser received an aoe atk w 2 hate positions. Monks like every other tank now have taunts that crit and can become unresistable with enough aggression.Monks like bruiser recieved the same bonus to craneflock and crane twirl AA.All of those changes made brawlers and Monks aoe agro pretty dang good. Heck monks have more aoe snap agro tools then zerkers and/or crusaders. Do I think bruisers have slightly better aoe agro, yes, but monks have better defensive abilites. A raid will do just fine with a monk instead of a bruiser.That is the way tanks are balanced for raids in sf, 1 mt (guard), 1-2 offtanks (1 crusader needed), 1 brawler. You have 2 brawlers fighting for 1 spot and you have 3 offtanks fighting for 1-2 spots. A raid requires 1 of each class type for certain raids, so a minimum of 3 tanks and generally max of 4. You dont see recruitment threads with guilds looking for a bruiser instead of a monk. Every recruitment thread looking for a brawler simply state looking for a brawler. Every recruitment thread i see looking for an offtank lists shadowknight, paladin, or zerker, interchangeably.

Couching

03-17-2010, 09:33 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Monks like bruisers recieved the same extra hate added to our crappy aoe atk.And it's only in defensive stance. Staying offensive gets more aggro than staying def stance with extra hate our our crappy aoe atk. Monks also received the same reinforcement type ability bruiser received from mantis leap.Tried and not impressed at all because it works only on auto attack while we have 0% aoe autoattack. When we have crane flock (temp aoe melee atk) on, there is no aoe aggro issue so why bother getting mantis leap?It's mostly for pvp spec or a snap tool for single target.Monks also received an ability that turned all thier taunts into positionals and added damage reductions, while bruiser received an aoe atk w 2 hate positions.Our reuse timer is 3 minutes and bruiser's reuse timer is 30 sec.More important, ours is encounter taunt, not aoe taunt. Yours is aoe snap tool. The difference is huge.Monks like every other tank now have taunts that crit and can become unresistable with enough aggression.And our encounter taunt is 20 sec reuse, longest reuse of all fighters. Monks like bruiser recieved the same bonus to craneflock and crane twirl AA.This is the real positive change of aoe dps and aggro. Sadly, monk aoe dps and aggro is still far behind aoe tanks.All of those changes made brawlers and Monks aoe agro pretty dang good. Heck monks have more aoe snap agro tools then zerkers and/or crusaders. Incorrect. Bruiser has 30 sec reuse aoe snap aggro tool. Zerker has 45 sec reuse aoe snap aggro tool. I am not sure about crusaders but they have 6 or 7 aoe CA and 40% auto attacks. For monk, we have zero aoe snap tool. Do I think bruisers have slightly better aoe agro, yes, but monks have better defensive abilites. A raid will do just fine with a monk instead of a bruiser.Bruiser is not slightly better in aoe aggro, it's huge. Yes, we are better in defensive ability and bruiser is better in aoe aggro, dps and utilities.Even though, I still think monk is comparable with bruiser in raid. But in heroic content, bruiser and other aoe tanks are by far better.</blockquote>

Gungo

03-18-2010, 10:56 AM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Monks like bruisers recieved the same extra hate added to our crappy aoe atk.And it's only in defensive stance. Staying offensive gets more aggro than staying def stance with extra hate our our crappy aoe atk.</blockquote></blockquote>I am not going to get into a he said she said debate with you. I will simply point out you obviously havent been playing enough. Since There is no point in being in offensive for agro anymore. There is an insane amount of + crush/slash/pierce gear and adornments out there that make the offensive stance agro issue null and void. I dont know a SINGLE monk or bruiser who tanks now in offensive. The majority of your statements while partial true only post half the abilities.

RafaelSmith

03-18-2010, 11:04 AM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is an insane amount of + crush/slash/pierce gear and adornments out there that make the offensive stance agro issue null and void. I dont know a SINGLE monk or bruiser who tanks now in offensive.The majority of your statements while partial true only post half the abilities.</blockquote>Ive noticed the same thing for my Guard.........i can't recall the last time I used O-stance or duel wield since SF launched.

Boli32

03-18-2010, 11:32 AM

As a fighter strength is now uncapped, and effects autoattack damage. so its a choice bwteen 1-2% mitigation or more DPS (I think guards, SKs, Palllys all have +strength on their offensive stance)I can't remember the last time I cast my defensive stance.

Couching

03-18-2010, 11:44 AM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is an insane amount of + crush/slash/pierce gear and adornments out there that make the offensive stance agro issue null and void. I dont know a SINGLE monk or bruiser who tanks now in offensive.The majority of your statements while partial true only post half the abilities.</blockquote>Ive noticed the same thing for my Guard.........i can't recall the last time I used O-stance or duel wield since SF launched.</blockquote>Monk is not bruiser and warrior who have aa to neglect the penality in defensive stance.I have tested both stances with 3 +21 adornments on gear. Sadly, the dps difference is still significant.The dps+aggro total in offensive is still > dps+aggro in defensive stance.

Gungo

03-18-2010, 03:18 PM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is an insane amount of + crush/slash/pierce gear and adornments out there that make the offensive stance agro issue null and void. I dont know a SINGLE monk or bruiser who tanks now in offensive.The majority of your statements while partial true only post half the abilities.</blockquote>Ive noticed the same thing for my Guard.........i can't recall the last time I used O-stance or duel wield since SF launched.</blockquote>Monk is not bruiser and warrior who have aa to neglect the penality in defensive stance.I have tested both stances with 3 +21 adornments on gear. Sadly, the dps difference is still significant.The dps+aggro total in offensive is still > dps+aggro in defensive stance.</blockquote>I dont even use the def stance removal of 24 to melee skills it is useless considering you can get up to 4x +21 adornments. Several jewerly items both raid and heroic drop with 20+ skill and set helms with +27 skill. Honestly with basic gear you are WAY over the soft cap without a single buff.Considering the def stance is perma strikethrough immune for brawlers, we get 25% extra worn mitigation which actually has a decent effect for leathertanks, and we gain a large amount of + def skills and agression from the def stance. It is silly not to be in defensive when you are EVER tanking.Again if you are tanking in offensive you are the ONLY brawler doing so in t9, especially since you gain MORE aoe agro by using your aoe atk w hate added. At least everyone realizes your problem with tanking aoe content now. You do not know how to properly spec your toon.

Gungo

03-18-2010, 03:28 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>As a fighter strength is now uncapped, and effects autoattack damage. so its a choice bwteen 1-2% mitigation or more DPS (I think guards, SKs, Palllys all have +strength on their offensive stance)I can't remember the last time I cast my defensive stance.</blockquote>All skills are uncapped including Def skills such as defense and parry. You also gain other stats from defense stance such as AGI. It depends on the class though and i would not tank in defensive as a zerker unless absolutely necessary. Also the uncapped str gain is extremely small. And honestly 2% damage reduction is significant in raids.

Couching

03-18-2010, 03:54 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is an insane amount of + crush/slash/pierce gear and adornments out there that make the offensive stance agro issue null and void. I dont know a SINGLE monk or bruiser who tanks now in offensive.The majority of your statements while partial true only post half the abilities.</blockquote>Ive noticed the same thing for my Guard.........i can't recall the last time I used O-stance or duel wield since SF launched.</blockquote>Monk is not bruiser and warrior who have aa to neglect the penality in defensive stance.I have tested both stances with 3 +21 adornments on gear. Sadly, the dps difference is still significant.The dps+aggro total in offensive is still > dps+aggro in defensive stance.</blockquote>I dont even use the def stance removal of 24 to melee skills it is useless considering you can get up to 4x +21 adornments. Several jewerly items both raid and heroic drop with 20+ skill and set helms with +27 skill. Honestly with basic gear you are WAY over the soft cap without a single buff.Considering the def stance is perma strikethrough immune for brawlers, we get 25% extra worn mitigation which actually has a decent effect for leathertanks, and we gain a large amount of + def skills and agression from the def stance. It is silly not to be in defensive when you are EVER tanking.Again if you are tanking in offensive you are the ONLY brawler doing so in t9, especially since you gain MORE aoe agro by using your aoe atk w hate added. At least everyone realizes your problem with tanking aoe content now. You do not know how to properly spec your toon.</blockquote>Your are incorrect again. We are talking heroic content.I haven't heard any brawler tanking TSF heroic content in defensive stance.It's a waste to be in defensive stance in most heroic content.Moreover, 8% crit bonus in offensive stance from monk stance, tons of jewelries with crit bonus/potency instead of weapon skills you can choose.The fact is, I have 20+ crit bonus and 10 + potency more in offensive than in defensive with gear of +weapon skill.It's so trivial that I can deal more aoe aggro in offensive with such gear than in defensive with gear of + weapon skill.And what is my problem of tanking aoe content?My only problem is aoe tanks can deal more aoe aggro and aoe dps than I do.Monk is not superior nor monopolizes any position in raid, but any aoe tank is superior than monk in heroic content. And what is in return for monk, so called single target tank in heroic content? Nothing.

Gungo

03-18-2010, 04:41 PM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is an insane amount of + crush/slash/pierce gear and adornments out there that make the offensive stance agro issue null and void. I dont know a SINGLE monk or bruiser who tanks now in offensive.The majority of your statements while partial true only post half the abilities.</blockquote>Ive noticed the same thing for my Guard.........i can't recall the last time I used O-stance or duel wield since SF launched.</blockquote>Monk is not bruiser and warrior who have aa to neglect the penality in defensive stance.I have tested both stances with 3 +21 adornments on gear. Sadly, the dps difference is still significant.The dps+aggro total in offensive is still > dps+aggro in defensive stance.</blockquote>I dont even use the def stance removal of 24 to melee skills it is useless considering you can get up to 4x +21 adornments. Several jewerly items both raid and heroic drop with 20+ skill and set helms with +27 skill. Honestly with basic gear you are WAY over the soft cap without a single buff.Considering the def stance is perma strikethrough immune for brawlers, we get 25% extra worn mitigation which actually has a decent effect for leathertanks, and we gain a large amount of + def skills and agression from the def stance. It is silly not to be in defensive when you are EVER tanking.Again if you are tanking in offensive you are the ONLY brawler doing so in t9, especially since you gain MORE aoe agro by using your aoe atk w hate added. At least everyone realizes your problem with tanking aoe content now. You do not know how to properly spec your toon.</blockquote>Your are incorrect again. We are talking heroic content.I haven't heard any brawler tanking TSF heroic content in defensive stance.It's a waste to be in defensive stance in most heroic content.Moreover, 8% crit bonus in offensive stance from monk stance, tons of jewelries with crit bonus/potency instead of weapon skills you can choose.The fact is, I have 20+ crit bonus and 10 + potency more in offensive than in defensive with gear of +weapon skill.It's so trivial that I can deal more aoe aggro in offensive with such gear than in defensive with gear of + weapon skill.And what is my problem of tanking aoe content?My only problem is aoe tanks can deal more aoe aggro and aoe dps than I do.For guardians, at least they monopolize MT position in raid and as trade off, they have worse aoe dps and aoe aggro in heroic content. And what is in return for monk, so called single target tank in heroic content? Nothing. </blockquote>Yea you do realize the gear with + skill is all offensive gear. The set helm s the offensive red adorn helm w mor epotency and crit bonus then the def helm without skills and more block chance. The jewerly is also more offensive related in particualr the 2 items i am thinking about both have procs and 1 of them has a decent amount of crit bonus. But even not considering those the mastercrafted adornments that we place in the white slots are better then the +hate adornments eitherway. and if you do use the red stance adornments you gain 6% uncontested riposte avoidance instead of 8% crit bonus. Which liklely adds just as much dps tanking. 6% riposte is basically a ~6% chance to proc ~1000+ damage when hit (frontal).Again in raids you fight for the same position bruiser have the brawler slot, you have better defensive abilities and provide similar utility. Bruisers have arguably better dps and better aoe agro. Both brawlers are balanced and equally desired for thier raid slot.In heroic content as you said before you can do just fine. In fact you do more dps and have better aoe agro then guards. And have more snap agro tools then most fighters.

Couching

03-18-2010, 05:34 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your are incorrect again. We are talking heroic content.I haven't heard any brawler tanking TSF heroic content in defensive stance.It's a waste to be in defensive stance in most heroic content.Moreover, 8% crit bonus in offensive stance from monk stance, tons of jewelries with crit bonus/potency instead of weapon skills you can choose.The fact is, I have 20+ crit bonus and 10 + potency more in offensive than in defensive with gear of +weapon skill.It's so trivial that I can deal more aoe aggro in offensive with such gear than in defensive with gear of + weapon skill.And what is my problem of tanking aoe content?My only problem is aoe tanks can deal more aoe aggro and aoe dps than I do.For guardians, at least they monopolize MT position in raid and as trade off, they have worse aoe dps and aoe aggro in heroic content. And what is in return for monk, so called single target tank in heroic content? Nothing. </blockquote>Yea you do realize the gear with + skill is all offensive gear. The set helm s the offensive red adorn helm w mor epotency and crit bonus then the def helm without skills and more block chance. The jewerly is also more offensive related in particualr the 2 items i am thinking about both have procs and 1 of them has a decent amount of crit bonus. But even not considering those the mastercrafted adornments that we place in the white slots are better then the +hate adornments eitherway. and if you do use the red stance adornments you gain 6% uncontested riposte avoidance instead of 8% crit bonus. Which liklely adds just as much dps tanking. 6% riposte is basically a ~6% chance to proc ~1000+ damage when hit (frontal).Again in raids you fight for the same position bruiser have the brawler slot, you have better defensive abilities and provide similar utility. Bruisers have arguably better dps and better aoe agro. Both brawlers are balanced and equally desired for thier raid slot.In heroic content as you said before you can do just fine. In fact you do more dps and have better aoe agro then guards. And have more snap agro tools then most fighters.</blockquote>Most gear with + skill usually comes with DA or Crit chance only instead of crit bons and potency unless it's raid drops. Without exceptions, those gear with +skill is not the best choice for maximizing your dps and aggro.Bruiser and monk are balanced and equally desired for raid but bruiser is by far better than monk in heroic content, better aoe dps, better aoe aggro and more snap tools.Not just bruiser, zerker has more snap aggro tools than monk considering reuse time of each snap aggro tool and zerker's aoe dps is a lot higher.And the most important, what monk got is single target snap aggro tool. For aoe content, aoe snap aggro tool > single target snap aggro tool. Oh I forgot to mention that we can deal more dps than guardian. But wait, when do guardians belong to aoe tank? No, they are not.