Why are SKs so much more powerful than Warriors? [Archive]

TheSpin

02-14-2010, 06:31 AM

<cite>ZerkerDwarf wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>They may have tons of shield block AAs etc but if you actually look at stats instead of just AA you will see that Warriors still have higher mit and avoidance in the same gear as a Crusader.Also, from what i have heard Zerkers are parsing double what most Sks are doing. Not sure if that is true or not but that is what I have heard.</blockquote>1. With the same/comparable gear (e.g. both full TSO set and same shield + jewellery) and with the same group buffs, a SK has higher avoidance.2. When have you heard this? Two years ago? LOL³3. The annoying point is, that with the same gear and the same buffs, a SK exceeds a berserker IN EVERYTHING AT THE SAME TIME, plus they have FD and evac. The berserkers lvl 80 special has not been carefully thought about by the devs and the berserker's two TSO final AA abilities just suck in comparison to the SK's. I'm fed up of SK being played by dev and berserker is not. The pieces of the SK's AA trees work hand in hand and with the mythical, while the berserker's AA tree is just a compilation of some stuff here and there. There are also a lot of serious issues with the berserker's SF AA abilities (I've been playing on test).</blockquote>I know I haven't grouped with everyone, but I've yet to meet an SK I couldn't rip aggro off of when going all out. I have met a zerker that consistantly keeps up with me though. I'm talking approximate T3 gear all around and I play a brigand so I'm talking single target dps more than group dps. Unfortunately threads like this mean I don't have more than a handful of zerkers to compare to the buttloads of SKs.

Phelon_Skellhound

02-15-2010, 06:17 AM

<cite>ZerkerDwarf wrote:</cite><blockquote>1. With the same/comparable gear (e.g. both full TSO set and same shield + jewellery) and with the same group buffs, a SK has higher avoidance. Hmmm I dunno bout this one, its all about group/raid make up really now...2. When have you heard this? Two years ago? LOL³ Zerker buddy of mine parses as high if not higher sometimes depending on the mob we fight in raid/group *shrug* It all depends on the your group make-up, dual/sword-n-board, jewel/choker set up among other things3. The annoying point is, that with the same gear and the same buffs, a SK exceeds a berserker IN EVERYTHING AT THE SAME TIME, plus they have FD and evac. The berserkers lvl 80 special has not been carefully thought about by the devs and the berserker's two TSO final AA abilities just suck in comparison to the SK's. I'm fed up of SK being played by dev and berserker is not. The pieces of the SK's AA trees work hand in hand and with the mythical, while the berserker's AA tree is just a compilation of some stuff here and there. There are also a lot of serious issues with the berserker's SF AA abilities (I've been playing on test). I dont doubt that the adjustment to zerker/guardian buckler line/Myth probably could have been thought out better, but just for mentioning FD and evac as doom and gloom class killer made me LOL hehe... </blockquote> All in all I have to say is no class should look to another class's ability, only to have their current ones adjusted to be better than they were before

Crychtonn

02-19-2010, 04:46 PM

<cite>ZerkerDwarf wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just get a responsible dev to play a berserker as main and maybe they get overpowered like SKs.* exaggerated single target DPS* exaggerated multiple target DPS* tons of true 360 degree AEs* the best TSO ability of all tanks (15 sek invulnerability while being fully operational PLUS increased DPS meanwhile)* all this while also having the tools FD and evac* SKs have higher dps AND better general survivability (tons of AA shield block increase) at the same time than a berserker* The requirements of Adrenaline just suck. Remove berserk proc being required for both activating and keeping up Adrenaline. The mana drain is penalty enough!</blockquote>you forgot to add that crusader also have the highest auto attack damager of all tanks in addition to there already high dmg CA/spell.SK also get a soulward every 2 min

Diern

04-18-2010, 11:06 PM

I have limited sympathy for this thread.I have played a Shadowknight in both games since 1998, as this is the first time the Shadowknight has had a good time of anything. For years they were the [Removed for Content] tank class and SOE redheaded step child, playing second fiddle to the warriors in PVE content especially when raids were concerned. Then we finally get some love everyone wants to take it from us....That, said I don't think nerfing Sk's is the answer but, the other tank classes may need to be buffed up a bit and I am all for this. But at least see where this new expansion leads balance wise before screaming bloody murder yet again.

ZerkerDwarf

04-19-2010, 07:31 AM

This is not shouting, this is just emphazising:BALANCING DOES NOT MEAN PUTTING A HEAVIER WEIGHT WHERE ONCE HAS BEEN A LIGHTER WEIGHT.BALANCING IS PUTTING THE SAME WEIGHT ON EACH SIDE.This is what SOE fails to do over and over again.

steelbadger

04-19-2010, 08:44 AM

<cite>Diernes wrote:</cite><blockquote>That, said I don't think nerfing Sk's is the answer but, the other tank classes may need to be buffed up a bit and I am all for this. But at least see where this new expansion leads balance wise before screaming bloody murder yet again.</blockquote>I'm pretty tired of healing this peace and love message over and over again. It is not a viable method of balancing the game. When one or two classes are out of line then it is the few that need changed, not the many. If all tanks were buffed to the point of SKs a number of other things would have to happen:1) Mob damage output would have to be increased somewhat to account for the ability of all tanks to generate significant aggro while retaining good defense2) DPS classes would need to be buffed as well, if tanks are able to equal or supass the dps of true DPS classes then those DPS classes would also need a buff to bring them back into line with where tanks are sitting.3) Mobs would now be dying far too fast, they would need their HP increased significantly to take account of the new higher DPS that groups and raids can generate.That's a lot of work to negate the impact of 1-2 overcapable tank classes when the alternative is simply to reduce 1-2 classes capabilities to a level similar to that of the other tank classes. A level where the other tank classes operate acceptably for the most part but are often frustrated by the unreasonable expectations of people who believe all tank classes were created equal. A level that most content currently seems to be built around.

Bruener

04-19-2010, 02:46 PM

<cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Diernes wrote:</cite><blockquote>That, said I don't think nerfing Sk's is the answer but, the other tank classes may need to be buffed up a bit and I am all for this. But at least see where this new expansion leads balance wise before screaming bloody murder yet again.</blockquote>I'm pretty tired of healing this peace and love message over and over again. It is not a viable method of balancing the game. When one or two classes are out of line then it is the few that need changed, not the many. If all tanks were buffed to the point of SKs a number of other things would have to happen:1) Mob damage output would have to be increased somewhat to account for the ability of all tanks to generate significant aggro while retaining good defense2) DPS classes would need to be buffed as well, if tanks are able to equal or supass the dps of true DPS classes then those DPS classes would also need a buff to bring them back into line with where tanks are sitting.3) Mobs would now be dying far too fast, they would need their HP increased significantly to take account of the new higher DPS that groups and raids can generate.That's a lot of work to negate the impact of 1-2 overcapable tank classes when the alternative is simply to reduce 1-2 classes capabilities to a level similar to that of the other tank classes. A level where the other tank classes operate acceptably for the most part but are often frustrated by the unreasonable expectations of people who believe all tank classes were created equal. A level that most content currently seems to be built around.</blockquote>Well most tanks with know-how are sick of hearing the same old junk about SK's being OP'd. The fact is the general mass of people just have not realized the potential of other tanks yet. It will set in probably in a few months....Paladins parse just as high as SKs, have higher survivability, rec'd some more spike damage prevention, and have more passive agro than any other tank.Bezerkers have 20% higher crit bonus than Crusaders which goes a long way since there is no cap on crit bonus. Also their new heal ability allows them to heal more than both Crusaders through an instance.Brawlers can reach the same mit level of plate tanks and have much much higher avoid, 360 avoid that is. They also have more hate management tools than other fighters.Guard is a behemoth now in raids. Their agro issues of TSO are long gone with threat crits and group moderate.All, and I repeat ALL fighter classes have close to the same DPS potential. Some slightly higher than others, but when all buffs are laid out at the end of the day the numbers are all real close.As usual, people just need to get out of TSO.

Obadiah

04-19-2010, 04:05 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>As usual, people just need to get out of TSO.</blockquote>I think most people are. The OP was made during TSO and this thread was [appropriately] dead until someone inexplicably resurrected it recently.

Bruener

04-19-2010, 04:46 PM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>As usual, people just need to get out of TSO.</blockquote>I think most people are. The OP was made during TSO and this thread was [appropriately] dead until someone inexplicably resurrected it recently.</blockquote>Ah yes it was. Shame on the individual who resurrected it, and my post is still directed at the people that posted recently trying to defend the OP still.

Razzak1

04-20-2010, 10:44 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guard... Their agro issues of TSO are long gone with threat crits and group moderate.</blockquote>You are kidding me right? If you are a MT Gaurd in a raid and have group moderate, then you obviously do not understand the machanics of the game. Do I think SK's still have a one-up over me? Sure do in the threat category. Can I take a hit better then them, [Removed for Content] right but why in the world would I want my SK OT to hold back for fear of pulling?Crazy world we live in.

Landiin

04-20-2010, 11:03 AM

This thread just got better since Bruener joined. He is good entertainment.

Sleap

04-20-2010, 11:30 AM

I think SK's are just easier to play.. doesnt mean they are overpowered. Sure i play an SK, i just prefer the sk for my playstyle. With the new raid gear im sure i could be more powerful than i am now.. but i dont raid, ive grouped with a few zerker raiders doing 40-70k dps through VD: Cella. I'll be lucky to do 8-9k in VD: Cella, as you see it all depends on gear and the player behind the wheel.

Obadiah

04-20-2010, 12:09 PM

Bruener

04-20-2010, 12:38 PM

<cite>Razzak1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guard... Their agro issues of TSO are long gone with threat crits and group moderate.</blockquote>You are kidding me right? If you are a MT Gaurd in a raid and have group moderate, then you obviously do not understand the machanics of the game. Do I think SK's still have a one-up over me? Sure do in the threat category. Can I take a hit better then them, [Removed for Content] right but why in the world would I want my SK OT to hold back for fear of pulling?Crazy world we live in.</blockquote>Guard issues weren't at the raid level, so yes a heroic tanking Guard should have group moderate.And the reason you probably feel that SKs have a one-up on you is because you just can't learn how to play your class right. As a SK I don't have to hold back for fear of pulling off the Guard. Can I pull it off, yeah sure if I ask for hate buffs and transfers I can give the Guard a hard time....but what is the point of that? I can go full bore otherwise and not even come close to pulling it off the Guard. You probably missed some of the other posts by Digg as well where Guards parse just as high as SKs and the other fighters. In fact on a raid well played fighters will all sit pretty close to each other.I suggest you look at your gear and play-style and start thinking how you can improve yourself if the SK has to hold back.

Razzak1

04-20-2010, 01:08 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote> Can I pull it off, yeah sure if I ask for hate buffs and transfers I can give the Guard a hard time....but what is the point of that? I can go full bore otherwise and not even come close to pulling it off the Guard. </blockquote>That is the difference then. My SK OT if he tells the Sin not to put Xfer on him, it is a non-issue. I don't want my OT to hold back, that is my point. Maybe we will just start running without xfer for him then. Is that what everyone is finding as well? Am I just late in this realization?<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>You probably missed some of the other posts by Digg as well where Guards parse just as high as SKs and the other fighters. In fact on a raid well played fighters will all sit pretty close to each other.</blockquote>You are correct. My SK OT and I run neck and neck most times on the parse. He still edges me out but it's fun to try either way.

AziBam

04-20-2010, 02:06 PM

<cite>Razzak1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote> Can I pull it off, yeah sure if I ask for hate buffs and transfers I can give the Guard a hard time....but what is the point of that? I can go full bore otherwise and not even come close to pulling it off the Guard. </blockquote>That is the difference then. My SK OT if he tells the Sin not to put Xfer on him, it is a non-issue. I don't want my OT to hold back, that is my point. Maybe we will just start running without xfer for him then. Is that what everyone is finding as well? Am I just late in this realization?<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>You probably missed some of the other posts by Digg as well where Guards parse just as high as SKs and the other fighters. In fact on a raid well played fighters will all sit pretty close to each other.</blockquote>You are correct. My SK OT and I run neck and neck most times on the parse. He still edges me out but it's fun to try either way.</blockquote>Our raid force has pretty much always found that if the OT (Zerker) wasn't actually tanking something we needed to make sure he didn't have any transfers on him. Even just last week our MT (guard) asked about buffs on the OT and we found that the Assassin had his transfer on. He later commented that it was much better after the buff was removed.

arksun

04-20-2010, 02:19 PM

<cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Razzak1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can I pull it off, yeah sure if I ask for hate buffs and transfers I can give the Guard a hard time....but what is the point of that? I can go full bore otherwise and not even come close to pulling it off the Guard. </blockquote>That is the difference then. My SK OT if he tells the Sin not to put Xfer on him, it is a non-issue. I don't want my OT to hold back, that is my point. Maybe we will just start running without xfer for him then. Is that what everyone is finding as well? Am I just late in this realization?</blockquote></blockquote>Open up ACT and read the threat out of your SK in raid and I would imagine the fights he is ripping agro on will be fairly obvious to see what he is doing, I have the same problems with SK in my guild, but the monk can top the parse and never pull agro .... EVER, since I have been raiding with my monk he parses extremely high and never rips agro.I never understood why a tank that shouldn't be tanking anything would want to pull agro consistently for no reason and dps with hate buffs, and then people question why you lose agro? I don't think people understand how a Guardian or even a zerker for that matter generates hate and takes that for granted or in my case they just like being "rude" about it.No reason for an OT that is dps to run with a xfer, dirge hate, or trak shield running, or wasting temp threat increasers even though they have some sort of damage proc attached to them, when you waste taunts keeping a mob off another tank it is counter productive to the raid force. The coercer xfer buff is one thing because its nice to get that 10% base buff.

Razzak1

04-20-2010, 02:57 PM

Thanks Digg and all those that posted. I'll check ACT tonight to see if anything jumps out at me. From your experience, do you know of anything that I should be looking for specifically? Thanks again.

Rocc

04-20-2010, 03:03 PM

In my opinion <----- OPINIONNo tanks should be able to hold agro as well as a berserker and guardian. The importance of the class defining "tank" without the dps and heals of crusaders should be taken into account. Or better yet, give my zerker lay on hands and death march!

Bruener

04-20-2010, 03:08 PM

<cite>Rocc@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>In my opinion <----- OPINIONNo tanks should be able to hold agro as well as a berserker and guardian. The importance of the class defining "tank" without the dps and heals of crusaders should be taken into account. Or better yet, give my zerker lay on hands and death march!</blockquote>Being able to self heal more through an instance than both Crusaders isn't enough already?.....

Rocc

04-20-2010, 03:18 PM

I'm not an SK hater. Not by any means. My best friend plays an SK. My problem stems from basic class dps, gear ability and importance of group make up. For example a mage wears garbage bags. Their one shot wonders. But their garbage bag wearing class defining ability is DPS. So why should a class that wears chain or even leather be able to out DPS the garbage bag wearing class? Simple game mechanics. A primary class ie, Mage, Priest, Scout, Warrior should have dps and survivability designed to accomodate their chosen profession.With that mindset, the subclasses have also chosen. The most tankability class is supposed to be the guardian and berserker. With that said we should prolly have the lowest dps becasue we can wear plate armor. So it's the opposite extreme. Groups should be seeking garbage bags for DPS and plate for tanking. You with me?Crusaders are a well balanced combination of plate and survivability. The dps they do ensures agro control (or at least it's supposed to). But when groups and raids start calling for SKs to lead them instead of zerks or guards I have to wonder if this mechanic is working properly. Yes zerkers got a GIANT boost in TSO but still the preference is shifting toward deathmarch. With a subclass that should be less tankability worthy than a zerker or guardian, thats saying a lot! I dont want anyone to nerf any class. I'm just saying the focus on MT should be primarily on top plate tanks and secondary tanks should be crusaders. Flame away but I'm trying to be impartial....

arksun

04-20-2010, 04:11 PM

<cite>Razzak1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thanks Digg and all those that posted. I'll check ACT tonight to see if anything jumps out at me. From your experience, do you know of anything that I should be looking for specifically? Thanks again.</blockquote>Well of course GS is one to look for but overall look at the threat output vs say what you are generating.

Razzak1

04-20-2010, 04:19 PM

Yeah, he is not using GS. We talked about it today (benefit from having your OT work 10 feet from you <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> ) and there are some things that he is going to switch out and not do to try and help me help him. Looking at the parse, I blow him away on threat overall. It's the snap aggro that seemed to be the issue. I also explained that Guards generate the most aggro when we are being beat on, so of course, mem-wiping mobs, SK is King.

BChizzle

04-20-2010, 07:40 PM

<cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Razzak1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can I pull it off, yeah sure if I ask for hate buffs and transfers I can give the Guard a hard time....but what is the point of that? I can go full bore otherwise and not even come close to pulling it off the Guard. </blockquote>That is the difference then. My SK OT if he tells the Sin not to put Xfer on him, it is a non-issue. I don't want my OT to hold back, that is my point. Maybe we will just start running without xfer for him then. Is that what everyone is finding as well? Am I just late in this realization?</blockquote></blockquote>Open up ACT and read the threat out of your SK in raid and I would imagine the fights he is ripping agro on will be fairly obvious to see what he is doing, I have the same problems with SK in my guild, but the monk can top the parse and never pull agro .... EVER, since I have been raiding with my monk he parses extremely high and never rips agro.I never understood why a tank that shouldn't be tanking anything would want to pull agro consistently for no reason and dps with hate buffs, and then people question why you lose agro? I don't think people understand how a Guardian or even a zerker for that matter generates hate and takes that for granted or in my case they just like being "rude" about it.No reason for an OT that is dps to run with a xfer, dirge hate, or trak shield running, or wasting temp threat increasers even though they have some sort of damage proc attached to them, when you waste taunts keeping a mob off another tank it is counter productive to the raid force. The coercer xfer buff is one thing because its nice to get that 10% base buff.</blockquote>There is this thing in game called a hate meter. No tank whatsoever should be pulling agro unless they are required to. It just shows what a horrible tank you are to pull agro at the wrong times. Digg's right I don't rip agro but if I climb up to 90+ on hate I ease back a little on the dps. As non tanking OT role you really only need coercer hate and transfers might as well go on a healer, if you need to pick up mobs or something then sure get some extra hate.

Darkonx

04-20-2010, 08:22 PM

<cite>Rocc@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not an SK hater. Not by any means. My best friend plays an SK. My problem stems from basic class dps, gear ability and importance of group make up. For example a mage wears garbage bags. Their one shot wonders. But their garbage bag wearing class defining ability is DPS. So why should a class that wears chain or even leather be able to out DPS the garbage bag wearing class? Simple game mechanics. A primary class ie, Mage, Priest, Scout, Warrior should have dps and survivability designed to accomodate their chosen profession.With that mindset, the subclasses have also chosen. The most tankability class is supposed to be the guardian and berserker. With that said we should prolly have the lowest dps becasue we can wear plate armor. So it's the opposite extreme. Groups should be seeking garbage bags for DPS and plate for tanking. You with me?Crusaders are a well balanced combination of plate and survivability. The dps they do ensures agro control (or at least it's supposed to). But when groups and raids start calling for SKs to lead them instead of zerks or guards I have to wonder if this mechanic is working properly. Yes zerkers got a GIANT boost in TSO but still the preference is shifting toward deathmarch. With a subclass that should be less tankability worthy than a zerker or guardian, thats saying a lot! I dont want anyone to nerf any class. I'm just saying the focus on MT should be primarily on top plate tanks and secondary tanks should be crusaders. Flame away but I'm trying to be impartial....</blockquote>Death March is fairly useless, but I agree with a lot of what you said. DM grants the group 10s of immunity to control effects every 100s. What you get with an SK is more hate, and more DPS, so if you CAN keep them alive, they're better, but, it's harder to keep the SK alive than it is a berserker/guardian.

Dechau

04-21-2010, 03:12 AM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rocc@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not an SK hater. Not by any means. My best friend plays an SK. My problem stems from basic class dps, gear ability and importance of group make up. For example a mage wears garbage bags. Their one shot wonders. But their garbage bag wearing class defining ability is DPS. So why should a class that wears chain or even leather be able to out DPS the garbage bag wearing class? Simple game mechanics. A primary class ie, Mage, Priest, Scout, Warrior should have dps and survivability designed to accomodate their chosen profession.With that mindset, the subclasses have also chosen. The most tankability class is supposed to be the guardian and berserker. With that said we should prolly have the lowest dps becasue we can wear plate armor. So it's the opposite extreme. Groups should be seeking garbage bags for DPS and plate for tanking. You with me?Crusaders are a well balanced combination of plate and survivability. The dps they do ensures agro control (or at least it's supposed to). But when groups and raids start calling for SKs to lead them instead of zerks or guards I have to wonder if this mechanic is working properly. Yes zerkers got a GIANT boost in TSO but still the preference is shifting toward deathmarch. With a subclass that should be less tankability worthy than a zerker or guardian, thats saying a lot! I dont want anyone to nerf any class. I'm just saying the focus on MT should be primarily on top plate tanks and secondary tanks should be crusaders. Flame away but I'm trying to be impartial....</blockquote>Death March is fairly useless, but I agree with a lot of what you said. DM grants the group 10s of immunity to control effects every 100s. What you get with an SK is more hate, and more DPS, so if you CAN keep them alive, they're better, but, it's harder to keep the SK alive than it is a berserker/guardian.</blockquote>Not sure I agree with this statement..On my defiler I was running 1 grp SoH for a long period before SF came out, and the tank I found it easiest with was the SK for sure.. Not only because of their self heals, but they have so many funny tricks up their sleves that all other tanks can't keep up..Don't nerf the SK imo, beef up the others..

Tasburath

04-21-2010, 09:52 AM

I just wanted to clarify the situation with Razzak a little bit, since I am the SK OT he is referring to.I let him hold aggro whenever he needs to <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Seriously, though, we do not have aggro issues on raids. The only times I usually pull aggro is on mem-wiping mobs or if we are clearing through trash mobs and I go all out and just want stuff to die.I have a Trak shield, but only use it when I have no/little hate Xfer and have to pick up a mob. I then cancel it when the MT takes it back. I am cognisant of where I am on the threat meter and usually keep myself around 70 - 80. If I pop over 80, I'll slow down my dps to keep from pulling. I usually run with no hate Xfer and when I have a dirge (only on hard fights where I want stoneskin) he throws hate on me when the MT dies and pulls it off after the MT takes the mob back.I am tank specced, being a tank. I have points into my hate AAs, Shadows Death March, etc.I did a mirror spec yesterday and stripped nearly all my hate AAs from my AA lines and we'll see how that goes on tonight's raid. As long as I can hold aggro when I need to, I'll keep the spec. Otherwise I'll go back to my tank spec and hold back as needed. It'll be interesting to see if I can use insidious whisper with the new spec since it is pretty high on my parses when I do use it.I'd rather do a little less dps and be able to hold aggro when Razzak dies, goes LD, etc. rather than having half the raid holding back to keep from ripping from me.

Razzak1

04-21-2010, 10:41 AM

<cite>Tasburath wrote:</cite><blockquote>I let him hold aggro whenever he needs to <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Cold man, just cold. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />

yadlajoi

04-21-2010, 12:00 PM

<cite>Primel@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think SK's are just easier to play.. doesnt mean they are overpowered. Sure i play an SK, i just prefer the sk for my playstyle. With the new raid gear im sure i could be more powerful than i am now.. but i dont raid, ive grouped with a few zerker raiders doing 40-70k dps through VD: Cella. I'll be lucky to do 8-9k in VD: Cella, as you see it all depends on gear and the player behind the wheel.</blockquote>Vestigial Cella, you mean that zone where people receive that buff with bump their DPS tenfold and where SK parse 60 to 100k on last encounter?Nice deflection attempt.Crusader in general are totally out of control, and SK are even more overpowered than previous expansion.Hell most guild have ditch guardian MT for SK, some due to necessity (/wave trumak) some just because SK are just better in every aspect and their MT guard just got disgusted of the game.Both crusader need to be hit as hard as mages have been hit in battleground then we d see some balance again.

Razzak1

04-21-2010, 12:17 PM

<cite>yadlajoi wrote:</cite><blockquote>... because SK are just better in every aspect and their MT guard just got disgusted of the game.</blockquote>Umm.. no. SK's may have been a better choice in the Shadowknight Odyssey but no tank can take a hit like a Guard in SF.

Rahatmattata

04-21-2010, 01:19 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>You probably missed some of the other posts by Digg as well where Guards parse just as high as SKs and the other fighters. In fact on a raid well played fighters will all sit pretty close to each other.</blockquote><ol><li>He had to drop almost all uncontested avoidance to even get in the ball park.</li><li>He didn't parse "just as high", he was 7k dps short.</li><li>Wasn't that a single target encounter? I could be wrong here.</li><li>He used a god spell.</li></ol>

Razzak1

04-21-2010, 01:35 PM

That would explain a lot.

Bruener

04-21-2010, 03:16 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>You probably missed some of the other posts by Digg as well where Guards parse just as high as SKs and the other fighters. In fact on a raid well played fighters will all sit pretty close to each other.</blockquote><ol><li>He had to drop almost all uncontested avoidance to even get in the ball park.</li><li>He didn't parse "just as high", he was 7k dps short.</li><li>Wasn't that a single target encounter? I could be wrong here.</li><li>He used a god spell.</li></ol></blockquote>Why do you keep ignoring the fact that Digg has posted multiple times that he parses just as well as the other fighters in the raid. Some other important notes he made was that his avoidance and mitigation still remained very high even when he goes into DW mode. I believe he also said that he was not completely offensive on the parses he has shown. You also have BChizzle supporting his claims which is a brawler in the same raid set ups.The few of you that just keep hanging on to these arguments, Rattatouli, Toran, G-spot, etc really need to just figure out what you are doing wrong. Its to the point now that fellow Guards and other fighters are trying to point out your errors and you still go on with your crusade.

Aull

04-21-2010, 03:18 PM

I think that how much dps a class puts out should be viewed from the survivability perspective. The less mitigation the more dps or dps/utility they should have.For me I don't think that all fighters should be able to fill the raid mt position with equal success. It seems that is where this so called issue has arisen is that crusaders and brawlers should be more than capable of being raid mt material yet still keeping their prowess outside of the raid enviornment above the anyother fighter mentality.I support the defensively inclined role to the more offensively inclined role. I don't think that zerkers, sk's, and bruisers should be on the same ground defensively as guards, paladins, and monks. Guards, paladins, and monks shouldn't be on the same ground offensively as the zerker, sk, and bruiser either. This allows individuality. All being equal is just boring and makes no sense to have six fighters all capable of the same job.Just because there are warriors, crusaders, and brawlers shouldn't mean that the sub-classes of each should be equal or even similar in what they do. Zerkers should not be as tough as guards and so forth.Drifting away from this has caused the issues we see today.

Rahatmattata

04-21-2010, 03:52 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why do you keep ignoring the fact that Digg has posted multiple times that he parses just as well as the other fighters in the raid. Some other important notes he made was that his avoidance and mitigation still remained very high even when he goes into DW mode. I believe he also said that he was not completely offensive on the parses he has shown. You also have BChizzle supporting his claims which is a brawler in the same raid set ups.The few of you that just keep hanging on to these arguments, Rattatouli, Toran, G-spot, etc really need to just figure out what you are doing wrong. Its to the point now that fellow Guards and other fighters are trying to point out your errors and you still go on with your crusade.</blockquote>This has already been hashed out, you brought it up again. Nothing really new to say. It's already been pointed out a ton of that dps just comes from being the guy the mob is swinging at. Drop any other fighter in the MT group and let the mob swing at them, and they get the same damage shields. 60% avoidance mostly made up of contested parry, defense, and agility... and 0% uncontested block is not "very high". It's actually "very low" when an orange epic named mob takes a swing at your face. Maybe if you learned how to play and what things do instead of trolling the guard boards every day you would almost grasp the concept of what a shield does. Next time you tank an epic mob (assuming anyone is dumb enough to let you raid) tank it with a 2 hander or no shield.Fact is guards don't parse as high as other fighters, and they shouldn't. The balance problem is crusader survivability is too high for all of the perks the class has.Face it brownie, you love playing a warlock/defiler in plate armor and you're a kid kicking and screaming because you don't want anyone to take away your balloon even though you have 10 more.

Darkonx

04-21-2010, 04:12 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why do you keep ignoring the fact that Digg has posted multiple times that he parses just as well as the other fighters in the raid. Some other important notes he made was that his avoidance and mitigation still remained very high even when he goes into DW mode. I believe he also said that he was not completely offensive on the parses he has shown. You also have BChizzle supporting his claims which is a brawler in the same raid set ups.The few of you that just keep hanging on to these arguments, Rattatouli, Toran, G-spot, etc really need to just figure out what you are doing wrong. Its to the point now that fellow Guards and other fighters are trying to point out your errors and you still go on with your crusade.</blockquote>This has already been hashed out, you brought it up again. Nothing really new to say. It's already been pointed out a ton of that dps just comes from being the guy the mob is swinging at. Drop any other fighter in the MT group and let the mob swing at them, and they get the same damage shields. 60% avoidance mostly made up of contested parry, defense, and agility... and 0% uncontested block is not "very high". It's actually "very low" when an orange epic named mob takes a swing at your face. Fact is guards don't parse as high as other fighters, and they shouldn't.Crusader survivability is too high for all of the perks the class has.Face it brownie, you love playing a warlock/defiler in plate armor and you're a kid kicking and screaming because you don't want anyone to take away your balloon even though you have 10 more.</blockquote>Diggs is a raiding guardian who has proven time and time again that the DPS between tanks is fairly close to balanced. You really need to rethink how you play if you are still having huge issues. Wear more offensive gear, check that you are getting the INQ DS buff, etc. Change how you play, because other guardians are doing it, so can you.

Rahatmattata

04-21-2010, 04:21 PM

I don't have problems with my guardian. Why do you assume I have problems playing my character just because I happen to agree with almost everyone that crusaders are OP? The only "problem" I have is not getting invited to a pug when a crusader is lfg. /shrugYou really need to use your brain instead of just looking at numbers. You have to consider how those numbers were obtained and what was sacrificed. He has proven nothing except he can drop his shield, pop a god spell, and do more dps than the monk in his raid. I'm not sure how you are taking that and trying to say he has proven time and time again that the DPS between tanks is farily closed to balanced.But whatever man. Nerf crusaders.

arksun

04-21-2010, 04:38 PM

/meh its not like the god spell is making up my entire parse, yes it makes up a lot of my damage, but other tanks are using the same buffs. It comes down to min/max your character IMO.Don't get me wrong I still think there needs to be a penality to tanking while creating larger amounts of dps and benefits for being defensive and generating large amounts of agro to offset the two so that say for example a crusader using say a 2h will generate "X" amount of dps, but on the counter part the Guardian who is in defensive stance using a shield will generate = / or more in hate towards the mob.I really don't agree with a tank being able to generate that much dps while wearing a shield and thats about were it ends for me. SK's were buffed and they are mos def the flavor of the month (or years?) to say the least.Give all tanks a reason to stand in front of a mob defensively and give them the tools to maintain their job without having to dps tank so to say, and I think if you can do that then balance between heroic / raid will be found there.Take what im saying with a grain of salt, I do see problems I just think its some minor tweaks that could be done to balance it, but calling for a nerf is not going in the right direction. Bring balance to all tank offensive / defensive stances, and give the single target tanks their tools needed to exceed at their job, and the AoE tanks their's as well.

Magnis

04-21-2010, 04:50 PM

Im trying to be fairly opened in everything that has been said about the fighter DPS. When digg posted his parse I was amazed on the numbers. But it looks like most of that parse was the damage shield, and stampede from the healer the new SF bard AA spell and a miracle. There were other parses thrown out there, all saying all fighters were the same DPS wise in raids. My question is if the Guardian was parsing a well as other fighters in the raid with the 10K bane warding was adding just cus he was getting pounded on. Does that equal the balance every is saying. If all fighters are equal and they are parsing average 20k (just an example) with guardian MT, then you switch the Guard for a brawler, crusader, will the guards Parse go to 10k and the MT to 30K? I know the example isn’t that simple to put into perspective, but no one has proved that the guars dps woulnt drop 10k and other fighter wouldn’t rise 10k.

arksun

04-21-2010, 05:13 PM

If anything good is to be brought out of this thread I think all fighters deserve at least some response from the new mechanics dev on the situation and his ideas or thoughts on the matter.Basically all of beta went without one single word from xelgad and it appears it is going the same way 3+ months into this expansion. Would be nice to at least see some sort of retort from xelgad on the subject.I will never be in the optimal OT group with those buffs to prove or disprove that theory sadly, as it is now with content being trivial and encounters on farm status even needing me as a MT is not needed. Its more or less let the SK MT and pull entire rooms so that raids can end early.... sadly without at least some acknowledgement from xelgad on the situation or another dev working on fighter mechanics I think you will just see a shift to the flavor of the month tanks once encounters are figured out and INC damage is a null point.People say Guardians are the best defensively as a tank, but for how long do you need the best defensive tank once the rest of your raid force gets their AA's, equipment, proc gear, etc..... exactly you don't need the best defensive tank. Take the best offensive tank and plow through content.

Bruener

04-21-2010, 05:31 PM

<cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>People say Guardians are the best defensively as a tank, but for how long do you need the best defensive tank once the rest of your raid force gets their AA's, equipment, proc gear, etc..... exactly you don't need the best defensive tank. Take the best offensive tank and plow through content.</blockquote>Easy fix.....push out more CONTENT!!!! We have new zones coming which means much harder mobs again. Meanwhile there are still mobs unkilled from launch.But I do agree, once progression is down and things are on farm status any tank can step in and do the job easily. At that point it starts to lean towards having the more offensive tank do the job. But as soon as something new comes out its right back to getting the big hulk Guard in there to do the job.The question is what exactly do you do with the fighters. Every fighter class wants everything, and mainly because if they can't do it they become crappy for a large portion of an xpac. Whether it is more defensive or more offensive. If a tank is real offensive but takes 3x the damage that class will be worthless for tanking for at least anything that is progression...including OT'ing since they have to make mobs hit like trucks (OP'd healing mechanics imo). On the other side if you have a tank that is much more defensive and way less offensive they become obscolete for a good half of the xpac, or basically when things are on farm status. Throw in the mix that every tank needs good hate to hold agro off of DPS that wants to go full bore 24/7 and you have this huge issue on what to do with tanks.I do think that as of right now things are closer to where they need to be than they ever have been before.

arksun

04-21-2010, 05:43 PM

Aeralik had the right idea with fighter changes, but it was implented incorrectly IMO. There needs to be a penalty for dpsing and there needs to be a benefit for tanking defensively.Fighter dps can be compared viable to each other in the correct enviroment, but of course warriors will take a defensive hit for doing "X" amount of damage. On the other hand, a crusader can be viable on dps that matches other tanks or > than while using a shield. This is the only problem I have with the whole thing, but instead of nerfing that, make it beneficial for tanks dps while using DW for warriors, 2h for crusaders, etc.... and make it so every fighter benefit to tank fully defensive and still lock a mob down with what there class defines wether it be single target or AE.If you try to bring all tanks to the balance of an SK then we will all be the same exact thing, but if you define the offensive and defensive stances to be more in line with what they "should" be then it still keeps the class defining abilites in place for each class.We could argue all day about warrior vs. crusader survivability when it comes in regards to DW vs. Sword and Board. Lets just say crusader "X" puts out 50k dps and warrior "Y" puts out 50k dps, but one is required to DW and lose mitigation, avoidance, survivability all while the crusader has done the exact same job while wearing a shied, how can anyone really say that is balance. Put aside all the argueing and ego's aside and look at just the example given and I think that is probably one of the core problems most warriors have with crusaders and what they see as crusaders having it easy mode in heroic/raid enviroment.*edit*I could care less to parse 50k as long as I have the tools to do my job which is stay alive and hold down a mob, of course its fun to parse 40 - 50k but thats all it is, and everyone knows fighter DPS will be nerfed, if you don't think thats coming then everyone is very dilusional, wether it come from proc nerfs, damage shield nerfs, etc... its coming. They nerfed avatar gear at the end of an expansion, its not like this would be new for SoE.At the core defensive stance should generate insane amount of hate while halting dps and offensive stance should limit your hate generation while still making you a viable spot in the raid force.

Aull

04-21-2010, 06:16 PM

<cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aeralik had the right idea with fighter changes, but it was implented incorrectly IMO. There needs to be a penalty for dpsing and there needs to be a benefit for tanking defensively.Fighter dps can be compared viable to each other in the correct enviroment, but of course warriors will take a defensive hit for doing "X" amount of damage. On the other hand, a crusader can be viable on dps that matches other tanks or > than while using a shield. This is the only problem I have with the whole thing, but instead of nerfing that, make it beneficial for tanks dps while using DW for warriors, 2h for crusaders, etc.... and make it so every fighter benefit to tank fully defensive and still lock a mob down with what there class defines wether it be single target or AE.If you try to bring all tanks to the balance of an SK then we will all be the same exact thing, but if you define the offensive and defensive stances to be more in line with what they "should" be then it still keeps the class defining abilites in place for each class.We could argue all day about warrior vs. crusader survivability when it comes in regards to DW vs. Sword and Board. Lets just say crusader "X" puts out 50k dps and warrior "Y" puts out 50k dps, but one is required to DW and lose mitigation, avoidance, survivability all while the crusader has done the exact same job while wearing a shied, how can anyone really say that is balance. Put aside all the argueing and ego's aside and look at just the example given and I think that is probably one of the core problems most warriors have with crusaders and what they see as crusaders having it easy mode in heroic/raid enviroment.*edit*I could care less to parse 50k as long as I have the tools to do my job which is stay alive and hold down a mob, of course its fun to parse 40 - 50k but thats all it is, and everyone knows fighter DPS will be nerfed, if you don't think thats coming then everyone is very dilusional, wether it come from proc nerfs, damage shield nerfs, etc... its coming. They nerfed avatar gear at the end of an expansion, its not like this would be new for SoE.At the core defensive stance should generate insane amount of hate while halting dps and offensive stance should limit your hate generation while still making you a viable spot in the raid force.</blockquote>Excellent post!

Landiin

04-21-2010, 08:24 PM

<cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>We could argue all day about warrior vs. crusader survivability when it comes in regards to DW vs. Sword and Board. Lets just say crusader "X" puts out 50k dps and warrior "Y" puts out 50k dps, but one is required to DW and lose mitigation, avoidance, survivability all while the crusader has done the exact same job while wearing a shied, how can anyone really say that is balance. Put aside all the argueing and ego's aside and look at just the example given and I think that is probably one of the core problems most warriors have with crusaders and what they see as crusaders having it easy mode in heroic/raid enviroment.</blockquote>True story!

Rahatmattata

04-21-2010, 09:59 PM

The thing that sucks is we haven't really heard anything meaningful about fighters since the launch of TSO. Aerilik (or his boss) got this grand vision for a fighter revamp, and the first step was to nerf guardians and boost crusaders, and then all the other crap would be rolled in the second part. The only reason guards were OP was because they had 60% double attack wearing a tower shield (similar to how crusaders get autoattack bonus while wearing a tower shield now). This only applied to a handful of guards that had the mythical weapon. The rest of us (and zerkers) had a bag full of bucklers, so if we had to throw down and get defensive behind a tower shield, we lost all of that double attack.So, not only did the warrior stamina line get nerfed because of the guardian mythical weapon, the weapon itself was effectively nerfed as well when the "can use tower shield" property no longer applied. Non-raiding guardians lost their dps and ability to hold hate. The second part of the revamp never came, and guards were left suspended in an aborted attempt at a fighter revamp. Crusaders got their boost. They could have just left warriors alone in TSO and there would have been a lot less [Removed for Content] off guards, although zerkers would have been the underdog then.Since Aerilik failed, that is pretty much the last we've heard of fighter balance. Brenlo made a fleeting mention about fighters in the SF producer's letter simply saying there will be no revamp. Now they have more important things to do like Halas, BG optimization, nerfing chanters, server/DB optimization... I'm sure they think fighter balance is "good enough" and the devs have bigger things on their plate. It's unlikely any significant changes will happen any time soon, and I think the new mechanics dev has made one post that consited of a single keyboard character.It would be nice to know what the devs think of fighters other than a canned "we will continue to monitor fighter balance and will make adjustments as needed."

Bruener

04-21-2010, 10:31 PM

They will not nerf fighter DPS because of the simple fact that is the only way that they have been able to get more than 2 tanks finally in a raid for any reason other than stupid mob scripting (something they can only use so many times). Fighter DPS where it is right now is the only reason to bring that 3rd or 4th fighter...because it sure as heck isn't to tank for 99% of the time.Contributing to the raid thru DPS is what they can offer to any fighter beyond the MT for most of the time. Hence all those people playing fighters have something and feel like they are contributing something instead of sitting outside and being called in the extremely rare situations more than 1 tanks is actually needed (the way things were in the past).Fighter DPS is still no where close to what real DPS classes can put out. It is above utility classes and behind pure DPS, probably about where it should be....the rogue level when going completely offensive.In short the fighter revamp was a terrible idea and would have made playing a fighter other than the MT horrible, which is probably why Guards were in support of the revamp. Some issues could be looked into for it, like making the defensive stance much more meaningful. But personally, like a lot of the other fighters, I enjoy putting up decent numbers to kill trash faster while being able to tank well. When needed I gear down into my tank set and take the DPS hit to ensure raid survivability. But why would I want to sit there putting out numbers way less than healers (yes healers can out dps utility now) while as an OT only really being needed a very small amount of the time.Fighter DPS in general is an interesting beast. Most of it being done by abilities other classes are putting on a single person. Some of those abilities completely OP'd which inflates the parse of the fighter. DBW for example. Yeah sure it shows up on the fighter parse, but we all know where the DPS is really coming from. How great would it be to see Shamans topping the parse simply because the source of DPS got credited to the toon that actually caused it.DPS is what motivates this game. Its why lots of fighters feel things are more balanced than they ever have been. Its why Enchanters are rerolling left and right. Its why healers are enjoying themselves more.

Rahatmattata

04-22-2010, 02:14 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>DPS is what motivates this game. Its why lots of fighters feel things are more balanced than they ever have been. Its why Enchanters are rerolling left and right. Its why healers are enjoying themselves more.</blockquote>Not really. I'm more interested in maximing HP and defense. I only care to do enough dps to hold aggro. As long as I can hold aggro I go as defensive as possible, unless it's trivial content. Mostly in heroic stuff I try to find a balance where I can pull multiple encounters and hold them while not getting myself killed because I'm too offensive. I rolled a guardian because I want to dig in and be a mountain of defense. If I'm not tanking I have no desire to be in a raid/group.When I played a defiler I wasn't interested in dps. I was interested in maximizing heal crit and obtaining ward procs. The only time I cared about dps above all else is when I played an assassin and brig. Even as a coercer I focused on keeping my group full of power, and maximizing my mp pool to make manaflow hit harder. DPS is important to me, but rarely my main focus.The devs should design raid encounters to make priest have to heal more. That alone would lower their dps so they aren't destroying troubadour dps.

Darkonx

04-22-2010, 04:09 AM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>DPS is what motivates this game. Its why lots of fighters feel things are more balanced than they ever have been. Its why Enchanters are rerolling left and right. Its why healers are enjoying themselves more.</blockquote>Not really. I'm more interested in maximing HP and defense. I only care to do enough dps to hold aggro. As long as I can hold aggro I go as defensive as possible, unless it's trivial content. Mostly in heroic stuff I try to find a balance where I can pull multiple encounters and hold them while not getting myself killed because I'm too offensive. I rolled a guardian because I want to dig in and be a mountain of defense. If I'm not tanking I have no desire to be in a raid/group.When I played a defiler I wasn't interested in dps. I was interested in maximizing heal crit and obtaining ward procs. The only time I cared about dps above all else is when I played an assassin and brig. Even as a coercer I focused on keeping my group full of power, and maximizing my mp pool to make manaflow hit harder. DPS is important to me, but rarely my main focus.The devs should design raid encounters to make priest have to heal more. That alone would lower their dps so they aren't destroying troubadour dps.</blockquote>I enjoy min/maxing. That to me is wearing as much offensive gear as I possibly can, to do as much DPS as I possibly can, while still living. (If going max defensive allows my priests to gain more DPS than I would gain by going offensive, I would do that, but, it doesn't)IMO. It may be asking for a nerf on my class, but I think it should be done. I think Knight's Stance should be changed to be active with a 2h, instead of a 1h/shield, and then viable 2h weapons need to be put in on every teir of content, from the x2 (yuri is already in, and that's cool, but I've ran the zone every available lockout since launch, and I've seen it once), up to 3 rune RT, and of course, 4 rune RT. Right now, there is the x2 2h, and the 4 rune rt 2h, there needs to be something in between for them to be even remotely viable.

Hardain

04-22-2010, 05:58 AM

Few good quality ~160 DR 2H weapons for heroic instance loot tables. And don't forget good stats that are atleast on par with 2x 1H.

yadlajoi

04-22-2010, 10:04 AM

change all crusader myth from 6 to 4 sec delay weapon, reducing spread acordingly to keep the same dmg rating reduce knight stance to10% dmg bonus when maxed out. Change haircutter to a 2hander (or what ever is that 6sec delay 1hander) Now if crusader want to DPS they ll have to use 2hander and drop their survability. I d still think they d need a 15% reduction in their spell dmg spread

Sleap

04-22-2010, 11:32 AM

<cite>yadlajoi wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Primel@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think SK's are just easier to play.. doesnt mean they are overpowered. Sure i play an SK, i just prefer the sk for my playstyle. With the new raid gear im sure i could be more powerful than i am now.. but i dont raid, ive grouped with a few zerker raiders doing 40-70k dps through VD: Cella. I'll be lucky to do 8-9k in VD: Cella, as you see it all depends on gear and the player behind the wheel.</blockquote>Vestigial Cella, you mean that zone where people receive that buff with bump their DPS tenfold and where SK parse 60 to 100k on last encounter?Nice deflection attempt.Crusader in general are totally out of control, and SK are even more overpowered than previous expansion.Hell most guild have ditch guardian MT for SK, some due to necessity (/wave trumak) some just because SK are just better in every aspect and their MT guard just got disgusted of the game.Both crusader need to be hit as hard as mages have been hit in battleground then we d see some balance again.</blockquote>No.. not on last fight, the average dps through-out the entire zone, not including the last fight.

Sleap

04-22-2010, 11:34 AM

<cite>Razzak1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>yadlajoi wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Primel@Befallen wrote:</cite>... because SK are just better in every aspect and their MT guard just got disgusted of the game.</blockquote>Umm.. no. SK's may have been a better choice in the Shadowknight Odyssey but no tank can take a hit like a Guard in SF.</blockquote>lol now your just tryin to make me look like the bad guy.. I never said SK's are better in every aspect, you have the wrong person.

Sleap

04-22-2010, 11:38 AM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't have problems with my guardian. Why do you assume I have problems playing my character just because I happen to agree with almost everyone that crusaders are OP? The only "problem" I have is not getting invited to a pug when a crusader is lfg. /shrugYou really need to use your brain instead of just looking at numbers. You have to consider how those numbers were obtained and what was sacrificed. He has proven nothing except he can drop his shield, pop a god spell, and do more dps than the monk in his raid. I'm not sure how you are taking that and trying to say he has proven time and time again that the DPS between tanks is farily closed to balanced.But whatever man. Nerf crusaders.</blockquote>Well.. as a non-raiding sk, i dont take hits very well in SF, as a matter of fact i CANNOT pull like a warrior, or atleast a zerker and take the hits without giving the healer or healers a heart attack.

Laiina

04-22-2010, 11:52 AM

You have not defined what "Powerful" means, so I don't quite see your point or what your question is.

Razzak1

04-22-2010, 11:52 AM

You are correct Primel. I apologize and fixed my post.

Sleap

04-22-2010, 11:54 AM

It is quite alright my friend, forgive and forget. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" />

yadlajoi

04-22-2010, 12:33 PM

<cite>Primel@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>yadlajoi wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Primel@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think SK's are just easier to play.. doesnt mean they are overpowered. Sure i play an SK, i just prefer the sk for my playstyle. With the new raid gear im sure i could be more powerful than i am now.. but i dont raid, ive grouped with a few zerker raiders doing 40-70k dps through VD: Cella. I'll be lucky to do 8-9k in VD: Cella, as you see it all depends on gear and the player behind the wheel.</blockquote>Vestigial Cella, you mean that zone where people receive that buff with bump their DPS tenfold and where SK parse 60 to 100k on last encounter?Nice deflection attempt.Crusader in general are totally out of control, and SK are even more overpowered than previous expansion.Hell most guild have ditch guardian MT for SK, some due to necessity (/wave trumak) some just because SK are just better in every aspect and their MT guard just got disgusted of the game.Both crusader need to be hit as hard as mages have been hit in battleground then we d see some balance again.</blockquote>No.. not on last fight, the average dps through-out the entire zone, not including the last fight.</blockquote>if you are talking about the whole zone i would assume you forgot a 0 at the end of your "8-9K in VD: Cella" cause that s what SK can do with reasonable gear.If you are only truely only doing 8-9k then stop soloing the zone (wich would still mean you are actually soloing a zone designed for 6 players and SK need to be nerfed with the same bat that hit mages in battlegrounds)

Sleap

04-22-2010, 12:41 PM

lol no, thats also cause the zerker is pulling the named first without killin off the adds. So Named + idk.. 20-30 adds? If i tried that with my T3 shard armor, id get my rear handed to me, life-taps wont keep up with that amount of damage i would take, even with 2 healers. No im not tryin to solo the zone, im with a full group, highest ive parsed is 22k, that fun pull in Conservatory that i will survive from. Kind of frustrating with aggro control now too, even if i do manage to do 10k dps, im still having aggro issues with mage classes doing 15-30k dps. Im sure if i had T9 raid gear i could do the same. Its all about gear and i dont have the gear to survive that.

RafaelSmith

04-22-2010, 12:44 PM

<cite>Primel@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't have problems with my guardian. Why do you assume I have problems playing my character just because I happen to agree with almost everyone that crusaders are OP? The only "problem" I have is not getting invited to a pug when a crusader is lfg. /shrugYou really need to use your brain instead of just looking at numbers. You have to consider how those numbers were obtained and what was sacrificed. He has proven nothing except he can drop his shield, pop a god spell, and do more dps than the monk in his raid. I'm not sure how you are taking that and trying to say he has proven time and time again that the DPS between tanks is farily closed to balanced.But whatever man. Nerf crusaders.</blockquote>Well.. as a non-raiding sk, i dont take hits very well in SF, as a matter of fact i CANNOT pull like a warrior, or atleast a zerker and take the hits without giving the healer or healers a heart attack.</blockquote>But compared to a non-raiding Guardian at similar gear level than you ...you can pull more....pull faster and be alot less of a strain/burdon on your healers/group.Gotta compare apples to apples........"equally" geared SK -vs Guard at the top end are pretty well balanced....the further you go down the gear and content 'tiers' the worse and worse the Guard gets by comparison.Ive seen some rather badly geared and played SKs be able to do things they should not. SKs that would not be given the time of day by any serious raid force yet they can get away with just about anything in heroics because the class itself is too powerful. It has setup a level of expectation that the other fighters playing at the heroic/pug level cannot match where skill and playing smart means nothing just having an OP class is all that needed to get your slot.Bruener compares to end/geared SKs and Guards tat have all the optimal buffs available and sees that things are about right. I doubt he can make that claim when comparing a T2/3 shard geared SK -vs- T2/3 shard geared Guard trying MT for a group. Its not even close.

Sleap

04-22-2010, 01:03 PM

Ive seen guards do pretty well for themselves dual weilding.. perhaps you should try that, you also get a group-wide hate reduction for non-figheters. I might beable to out-parse you, but i dont have any hate reduction buffs, Sk's rely strictly on their dps and some hate transfer to hold aggro. Sometimes i wish my SK could dual weild, but i would drop faster than i already do, Sk's cannot take hits like a guard/zerker. I guess i do pretty well considering i get raiders asking me to tank zones for them, although my gear is out-dated. Not raid zones mind you, just heroic stuff and yes i have issues holding aggro off them raiders. SK's had fun in TSO pulling entire rooms, but now its time for warriors to shine with their Mitigation surviveablitity (im not sure if i spelled that right).

arksun

04-22-2010, 01:12 PM

SK sword and board in "X" group does "X" zone while doing "X" amount of dps.Warrior in "X" group does "X" zone while doing "X" amount of dps = or < the SK all while having to DW to do it.Pretty sure this is what they are getting at, all while the variables of "X" are the same for both players.

Aull

04-22-2010, 01:29 PM

RafaelSmith

04-22-2010, 01:32 PM

<cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>SK sword and board in "X" group does "X" zone while doing "X" amount of dps.Warrior in "X" group does "X" zone while doing "X" amount of dps = or < the SK all while having to DW to do it.Pretty sure this is what they are getting at, all while the variables of "X" are the same for both players.</blockquote>Its not just sword/board -vs- duel wield.Given his gear level.........what my Guard has to give up and swap out/switch in terms of surviveability, gear and weapons to maybe achieve 50% of what a similar geared SK can do without losing any of his surviveability is what alot of SKs out there seem to forget when they throw out the "well you can DW noob, you suck" comments.Don't get me wrong.......compared to how things were in TSO playing a Guard in SF even at heroic level is notwhere near teh level of frustration it was. Its doable and challenging even for less that ideal groups which wasnt the case in TSO.But there are still things broken when looking at all the fighters as a archetype. SK for instance IMO is still able to do too much(tank, dps, live) without any cost. At a minimum I think their survivability -vs- their DPS is to high. A Guard gives up a crap load of DPS for his/her survivability.....by contrast a SK should give up a crap load of surviveability for his/her DPS. Currenty that is what I think needs to be addressed.....and yes the correct fix sadly will have to come in a form of a 'nerf'. Buffing Guard DPS or utility would be the wrong fix and break things even further.

RafaelSmith

04-22-2010, 01:36 PM

<cite>Primel@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>but now its time for warriors to shine with their Mitigation surviveablitity (im not sure if i spelled that right).</blockquote>You do realize that our "mitigation advantage" doesnt come into play at the heroic level? In fact most of us lower our survivability to sub SK level because thats more than sufficient for most content. The problem is your DPS/aggro advantage does come into play....in fact becomes a even bigger advantage at the heroic level and you dont have to sacrifice anything.

Aull

04-22-2010, 02:36 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>SK sword and board in "X" group does "X" zone while doing "X" amount of dps.Warrior in "X" group does "X" zone while doing "X" amount of dps = or < the SK all while having to DW to do it.Pretty sure this is what they are getting at, all while the variables of "X" are the same for both players.</blockquote>Its not just sword/board -vs- duel wield.Given his gear level.........what my Guard has to give up and swap out/switch in terms of surviveability, gear and weapons to maybe achieve 50% of what a similar geared SK can do without losing any of his surviveability is what alot of SKs out there seem to forget when they throw out the "well you can DW noob, you suck" comments.Don't get me wrong.......compared to how things were in TSO playing a Guard in SF even at heroic level is notwhere near teh level of frustration it was. Its doable and challenging even for less that ideal groups which wasnt the case in TSO.But there are still things broken when looking at all the fighters as a archetype. SK for instance IMO is still able to do too much(tank, dps, live) without any cost. At a minimum I think their survivability -vs- their DPS is to high. A Guard gives up a crap load of DPS for his/her survivability.....by contrast a SK should give up a crap load of surviveability for his/her DPS. Currenty that is what I think needs to be addressed.....and yes the correct fix sadly will have to come in a form of a 'nerf'. Buffing Guard DPS or utility would be the wrong fix and break things even further.</blockquote>Great post. I believe that is the way it should be. There needs to be penalty for being high dps vs utility vs survial as a fighter class. Its wrong when my sk has the best success in dps and survival yet guards are expected to have just survival alone.

Bruener

04-22-2010, 03:27 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>DPS is what motivates this game. Its why lots of fighters feel things are more balanced than they ever have been. Its why Enchanters are rerolling left and right. Its why healers are enjoying themselves more.</blockquote>Not trying to argue but honestly enchanters parsing like wizzies/warlocks was unexceptable when considering the amount of utility that the chanters have. The highest dps should only be given to classes that have the least utility and survival.I am sure that many people enjoy high dps but it should be limited and not the focal point of every sub-class in the game.If a healer is parsing higher than expected then they are not being as effective healing wise as they should be.</blockquote>I can agree that chanters were parsing a little high in TSO. But they should be posting a lot higher than they are now, which is why a lot of them are quitting. They should be parsing 80% of a good T1 DPS instead of 50%.And yes, healing is so OP'd in this game that it is easy for a healer to focus on DPS and keep groups up. This is allowing for some healers to parse 20k+ pretty consistently....which is as high as chanters/bards.That being said it is a total DPS-centric game. DPS is the only means that it is worth squeezing more than 2 fighters into a raid now. People can argue utility is in extreme demand....but really we are talking about utility that increases DPS. How useful is crowd control utility? Instead it is just easier to just set it up to tank everything and let everybody full burn. Encounters die faster meaning less screw up. The only time a raid will ever consider limiting their DPS is when a unique script requires it.But what do people enjoy doing....performing their role while putting out decent DPS. Healers DPS'ing well are luvin it. Bards luv to DPS as much as possible. Fighters luv to DPS, especially when there is only one tank doing the tanking. etc. etc.

Sleap

04-22-2010, 03:56 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Primel@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>but now its time for warriors to shine with their Mitigation surviveablitity (im not sure if i spelled that right).</blockquote>You do realize that our "mitigation advantage" doesnt come into play at the heroic level? In fact most of us lower our survivability to sub SK level because thats more than sufficient for most content. The problem is your DPS/aggro advantage does come into play....in fact becomes a even bigger advantage at the heroic level and you dont have to sacrifice anything.</blockquote>I as a SK sacrifice defensive gear so i can dps better, a warrior does the same thing, except they sacrifice only their shield as i sacrifice +def/+parry for +Crit and +DA (which im sure a shield plays a big part of the SK's surviveability). If you compare my SK's Mit to your's, your Mit will be far higher than mine thus granting you more damage absorbtion. My SK is pretty squishy in this Xpac. I would not dare pull an entire room of ^^^ heroics in this xpac, i would not survive it. I do pull 2-4 at once, i have my immunity's and life-taps. If my SK could absorb damage like a warrior, then yes playing a SK would be god mode.

Aull

04-22-2010, 04:07 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>DPS is what motivates this game. Its why lots of fighters feel things are more balanced than they ever have been. Its why Enchanters are rerolling left and right. Its why healers are enjoying themselves more.</blockquote>Not trying to argue but honestly enchanters parsing like wizzies/warlocks was unexceptable when considering the amount of utility that the chanters have. The highest dps should only be given to classes that have the least utility and survival.I am sure that many people enjoy high dps but it should be limited and not the focal point of every sub-class in the game.If a healer is parsing higher than expected then they are not being as effective healing wise as they should be.</blockquote>I can agree that chanters were parsing a little high in TSO. But they should be posting a lot higher than they are now, which is why a lot of them are quitting. They should be parsing 80% of a good T1 DPS instead of 50%.And yes, healing is so OP'd in this game that it is easy for a healer to focus on DPS and keep groups up. This is allowing for some healers to parse 20k+ pretty consistently....which is as high as chanters/bards.That being said it is a total DPS-centric game. DPS is the only means that it is worth squeezing more than 2 fighters into a raid now. People can argue utility is in extreme demand....but really we are talking about utility that increases DPS. How useful is crowd control utility? Instead it is just easier to just set it up to tank everything and let everybody full burn. Encounters die faster meaning less screw up. The only time a raid will ever consider limiting their DPS is when a unique script requires it.But what do people enjoy doing....performing their role while putting out decent DPS. Healers DPS'ing well are luvin it. Bards luv to DPS as much as possible. Fighters luv to DPS, especially when there is only one tank doing the tanking. etc. etc.</blockquote>I agree with ya. It has become this. What I don't like is everyone is now judged by "how much dps you can do". No matter what class is in question. I personally do not like it but that is how the game has grown.

Shorcon

04-22-2010, 04:45 PM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Or re-evaluate the 1 tank, 23 support model, which is old and tired.Going back to the OP, I don't think a SOE representative CAN answer that question because they don't believe it's an accurate assessment.I would like to hear why you think they are growing stronger in the new expansion. Both Crusaders get some nice AAs to be sure, but Guardians are the absolute rock now. I don't think you can make a case that SK's are better at everything than Guardians; only at AE DPS and aggro.It's interesting how every single Fighter class' forums in the beta are filled with cries that they are getting shafted. They are by FAR the busiest class boards. It's more about trying to get everything you can out of the changes than actually trying to achieve balance. Everyone's looking out for #1. The worst offenders even admitted as much on the beta forums. Even if they believe their class has all the tools it needs and MORE, they still act as if they are getting hosed and won't be able to function.</blockquote>I am sure you dont realy believ what you wrote here do you? SK is the boss. Guardians are a rock to be thrown to the wayward side. Guardians and zerkers are the pure tanks by character creation description and should by that description be balanced to show this. SK has been given easy button for way to long.

Obadiah

04-22-2010, 05:26 PM

<cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Or re-evaluate the 1 tank, 23 support model, which is old and tired.Going back to the OP, I don't think a SOE representative CAN answer that question because they don't believe it's an accurate assessment.I would like to hear why you think they are growing stronger in the new expansion. Both Crusaders get some nice AAs to be sure, but Guardians are the absolute rock now. I don't think you can make a case that SK's are better at everything than Guardians; only at AE DPS and aggro.It's interesting how every single Fighter class' forums in the beta are filled with cries that they are getting shafted. They are by FAR the busiest class boards. It's more about trying to get everything you can out of the changes than actually trying to achieve balance. Everyone's looking out for #1. The worst offenders even admitted as much on the beta forums. Even if they believe their class has all the tools it needs and MORE, they still act as if they are getting hosed and won't be able to function.</blockquote>I am sure you dont realy believ what you wrote here do you? SK is the boss. Guardians are a rock to be thrown to the wayward side. Guardians and zerkers are the pure tanks by character creation description and should by that description be balanced to show this. SK has been given easy button for way to long.</blockquote>The post you are quoting was made 10 days before SF launched. The only statements I made were:*1 tank, 23 support is meh.*The OP's assessment that Crusaders are "so much more powerful than Warriors" and SOE is "continuing to let them grow stronger in the expansion" is false.*I would like to hear why the OP feels they are growing stronger. *Guardians are the rock, which is to say they received some substantial defensive benefits. *SK's are not better at everything.*Every Fighter class section in the beta was filled with cries that they were being shafted in the expansion, and members of some Fighter subclasses were trying to get as much "beef" as they could added even though they believed their class had all the tools it needed and more. Some admitted as much.Now, two months into the expansion, yes, I stand by all of those statements.EDIT: Actually, I take it back. I no longer really care why the OP felt they were growing stronger. So I wouldn't like to hear that. The poster hasn't posted in the thread since the OP, so it seems it was just a flame-bait thread anyway.

Rahatmattata

04-22-2010, 07:33 PM

The OP hasn't posted anything at all on the forums since he made this thread. I know him in game, and if you read what he wrote you will see he was posting hoping for a response from a game dev. I highly doubt he gives 2 squirts what you guys have to say, or feels the need to reply.

Obadiah

04-22-2010, 10:38 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>The OP hasn't posted anything at all on the forums since he made this thread. I know him in game, and if you read what he wrote you will see he was posting hoping for a response from a game dev. I highly doubt he gives 2 squirts what you guys have to say, or feels the need to reply.</blockquote>He might want to consider explaining what the heck he's talking about next time instead of just making a vague statement. That's sort of like asking the developers to respond to "Hey, why is stuff broken?"Except that it's even worse than that because the statement he's asking about most definitely false in their eyes, so there was never the slightest hint of a possibility that they could or would answer at all.

Rahatmattata

04-22-2010, 11:24 PM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>The OP hasn't posted anything at all on the forums since he made this thread. I know him in game, and if you read what he wrote you will see he was posting hoping for a response from a game dev. I highly doubt he gives 2 squirts what you guys have to say, or feels the need to reply.</blockquote>He might want to consider explaining what the heck he's talking about next time instead of just making a vague statement. That's sort of like asking the developers to respond to "Hey, why is stuff broken?"Except that it's even worse than that because the statement he's asking about most definitely false in their eyes, so there was never the slightest hint of a possibility that they could or would answer at all.</blockquote>Please, you have no idea what the devs think of fighter balance. If anything, the devs probably realize shadowknight is the second highest played class in the game, right behind wizards (according to eq2players). And they probably realize there is a reason why there are a fk ton of shadowknights running around.

Obadiah

04-23-2010, 01:13 AM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please, you have no idea what the devs think of fighter balance. If anything, the devs probably realize shadowknight is the second highest played class in the game, right behind wizards (according to eq2players). And they probably realize there is a reason why there are a fk ton of shadowknights running around.</blockquote>So the designers and developers of the game ... knowing that Crusaders substantially more powerful than Warriors in TSO, and that Guardians in particular were struggling in comparison ... intentionally INCREASED the gap between them as they designed the expansion.That's your theory? You really think that 10 days before launch the designers believed that they were increasing the gap between Crusaders and Warriors in the expansion?I'm certainly not going to dissuade you if that's your belief. And you're right, I have no statement from a designer/developer that this is not the case; it really makes absolutely no sense though. That's all I'm saying. They wouldn't respond to a question about why they were doing something that they didn't believe they were doing. Much less someone who gives no indication that he even knows what changes were coming, and more specifically what was changing that would make the gap widen. EDIT: Even if they DID believe Crusaders were uberest and they were making them even moreso ... they're going to answer that? "Given the popularity of the Shadowknight class, we decided to make them kick it even more. And hey, who doesn't love a strapping young Paladin? Warriors may still entertain themselves by purchasing Mushroom hats, which we've recently introduced to the Marketplace." [Removed for Content]? It seems to me the OP isn't looking for a response at all, but rather venting frustration at what they perceive to be some unfair pending change(s) that they don't feel it's necessary to specify.

EasternKing

04-23-2010, 09:30 AM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>The OP hasn't posted anything at all on the forums since he made this thread. I know him in game, and if you read what he wrote you will see he was posting hoping for a response from a game dev. I highly doubt he gives 2 squirts what you guys have to say, or feels the need to reply.</blockquote>He might want to consider explaining what the heck he's talking about next time instead of just making a vague statement. That's sort of like asking the developers to respond to "Hey, why is stuff broken?"Except that it's even worse than that because the statement he's asking about most definitely false in their eyes, so there was never the slightest hint of a possibility that they could or would answer at all.</blockquote>Please, you have no idea what the devs think of fighter balance. If anything, the devs probably realize shadowknight is the second highest played class in the game, right behind wizards (according to eq2players). And they probably realize there is a reason why there are a fk ton of shadowknights running around.</blockquote>Pretty sure there were more SK's in T5/T6/T7/T7a/T8/T8b than there were warriors, whats your point again?Wait what, Guards were the MT in T5/T6/T7/T7a/T8/T8b/T9? zomg how is that possible if they are so poorly balanced?your statistics are meaningless, the only ones that matter to class balance is who is doing what role, and Guards have had the MT spot on lockdown since launch.If they gave Guards the aoe capabilitys of Crusaders, what would be the point of Crusaders?If they gave Guards the ability to heal like Crusaders, again what would be the point of Crusaders?Understand this if you cannot grasp anything else, when you have 6 class's all being viable for 1 spot (heroic tank) or 3-4 spots (raid tanks) they are not going to be balanced, otherwise you have 1 tank class in game PERIOD.Guards have MT spot on lock down, Zerks + Crusaders have OT spot on lock down, Brawlers? who cares what they are doing, they should have been removed from the tank section eons ago. then with 4 class's you have 4 spots to fill in raids and any of them can tank heroic crap with ease.

BChizzle

04-23-2010, 10:19 AM

<cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guards have MT spot on lock down, Zerks + Crusaders have OT spot on lock down, Brawlers? who cares what they are doing, they should have been removed from the tank section eons ago. then with 4 class's you have 4 spots to fill in raids and any of them can tank heroic crap with ease.</blockquote>If guards have the MT spot on lockdown why are there so many crusaders MT'ing again? Also your opinion on brawlers is laughable. What happened did you get out performed by a brawler and it hurt your little feelings?

arksun

04-23-2010, 10:44 AM

<cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote>If they gave Guards the aoe capabilitys of Crusaders, what would be the point of Crusaders?If they gave Guards the ability to heal like Crusaders, again what would be the point of Crusaders?</blockquote>If they gave crusaders the single target capability of Guards, what would be the point of Guards?..... o yeah thats true they already have that.Survivability is worthwhile until you have learned an encounter for raiding, after that bring the highest parsing AoE tank in raid and blow through the content.How does that transalte for the heroic tank? ... Even worse, because most groups doing heroic content already have an idea or know how to complete heroic content.... What type of encounters make up most of the heroic content in SF? AoE of course, so why not bring the AoE tank that can easily lock down single target mobs in a group designed for casters or melee? Guards in heroic and even raiding situation cannot be tossed into random groups and expect to perform.The only thing people can say about guards over any other tank is survivability, but read the guard boards on the red headed step child site and even here... why are so many jumping ship to SK... its not that hard to understand.

EasternKing

04-23-2010, 12:26 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guards have MT spot on lock down, Zerks + Crusaders have OT spot on lock down, Brawlers? who cares what they are doing, they should have been removed from the tank section eons ago. then with 4 class's you have 4 spots to fill in raids and any of them can tank heroic crap with ease.</blockquote>If guards have the MT spot on lockdown why are there so many crusaders MT'ing again? Also your opinion on brawlers is laughable. What happened did you get out performed by a brawler and it hurt your little feelings?</blockquote>Crusaders MTing hardmode? or the stuff that can be tanked by rogues?My opinions of brawlers have been the same since T5 when my first ever rolled char was one.6 tanks is to many to balance, 4 is hard but doable,And are you going to deny that brawlers have done nothing but cry since t6? i have raided with top raid guild WW since Eof time till now, so no i havent seen some brawler out perform me, nor one hurt my feelings, thanks for asking though.

EasternKing

04-23-2010, 12:36 PM

<cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote>If they gave Guards the aoe capabilitys of Crusaders, what would be the point of Crusaders?If they gave Guards the ability to heal like Crusaders, again what would be the point of Crusaders?</blockquote>If they gave crusaders the single target capability of Guards, what would be the point of Guards?..... o yeah thats true they already have that.Survivability is worthwhile until you have learned an encounter for raiding, after that bring the highest parsing AoE tank in raid and blow through the content.How does that transalte for the heroic tank? ... Even worse, because most groups doing heroic content already have an idea or know how to complete heroic content.... What type of encounters make up most of the heroic content in SF? AoE of course, so why not bring the AoE tank that can easily lock down single target mobs in a group designed for casters or melee? Guards in heroic and even raiding situation cannot be tossed into random groups and expect to perform.The only thing people can say about guards over any other tank is survivability, but read the guard boards on the red headed step child site and even here... why are so many jumping ship to SK... its not that hard to understand.</blockquote>LOLALL tanks to be viable have to be able to do the same basic job, which is hold single target hate, Guards can hold multi mob aggro just fine, do they get to sit and randomly spam aoes ? not till they are uber geared no, they get to change targets like a brawler does.heroic ? who cares one crying bit about that content, it can be tanked by mages or scouts hell even healers can manage most of it.I AM a Guardian T5>Now, i swapped to SK in TSO for 6months as we had a Guard and a Paladin, now we dont have a Guard again and my SK is sitting collecting dust, as i am playing mine.Your Learned an encounter? try till you have farmed it for several months and the other tanks are over geared, ie they have all the loot from it.Highest parsing AOE tank? for all them fights with adds right? wanna start listing me all them hardmodes with adds? (that cant be left hitting on scouts and mages till they are dead)your post makes zero sense,I can out parse brawlers and crusaders single target on my guard, they can (crusaders and zerks out parse me on aoe fights,) i am not seeing this huge imbalance that needs to be QQ over.

arksun

04-23-2010, 12:47 PM

<cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote>If they gave Guards the aoe capabilitys of Crusaders, what would be the point of Crusaders?If they gave Guards the ability to heal like Crusaders, again what would be the point of Crusaders?</blockquote>If they gave crusaders the single target capability of Guards, what would be the point of Guards?..... o yeah thats true they already have that.Survivability is worthwhile until you have learned an encounter for raiding, after that bring the highest parsing AoE tank in raid and blow through the content.How does that transalte for the heroic tank? ... Even worse, because most groups doing heroic content already have an idea or know how to complete heroic content.... What type of encounters make up most of the heroic content in SF? AoE of course, so why not bring the AoE tank that can easily lock down single target mobs in a group designed for casters or melee? Guards in heroic and even raiding situation cannot be tossed into random groups and expect to perform.The only thing people can say about guards over any other tank is survivability, but read the guard boards on the red headed step child site and even here... why are so many jumping ship to SK... its not that hard to understand.</blockquote>LOLALL tanks to be viable have to be able to do the same basic job, which is hold single target hate, Guards can hold multi mob aggro just fine, do they get to sit and randomly spam aoes ? not till they are uber geared no, they get to change targets like a brawler does.heroic ? who cares one crying bit about that content, it can be tanked by mages or scouts hell even healers can manage most of it.Probably the people who are not as well geared as raiders and do not push themselves with end game content 5 - 7 days a week. I AM a Guardian T5>Now, i swapped to SK in TSO for 6months as we had a Guard and a Paladin, now we dont have a Guard again and my SK is sitting collecting dust, as i am playing mine.Your Learned an encounter? try till you have farmed it for several months and the other tanks are over geared, ie they have all the loot from it.This is completely not true, because previous tier gear still holds higher standards while learning an encounter and any tank who is geared previously will translate well into another tier, like I said once you learn and encounter its a null point. Highest parsing AOE tank? for all them fights with adds right? wanna start listing me all them hardmodes with adds? (that cant be left hitting on scouts and mages till they are dead)It doesn't have to be AoE named encounters, but a AoE tank (SK) can pull entire rooms and out perform a Guard in the AoE department and guess what that translates to... single target as well. I don't have to list encounters because pulling everything in the zone at once and clearing faster is all the proof I need. your post makes zero sense,You make zero sense at all you come into this thread talking about how you have been raiding since Tier5 and playing a guard then you switched to the flavor of the month tank and gave some lame excuse as to why you do it. (yeah i bet it was due to having a guard already, or maybe the fact that SK's were made so op you just couldn't stop salivating over it) I have played a warrior since day one of launch, and I only play to see end game content, but I am not stupid enough to think all of the game mechanics revolve around me and what I can do in the best raiding gear that is available. You are just another elitest who thinks there are no other population out there besides yourself. I can out parse brawlers and crusaders single target on my guard, they can (crusaders and zerks out parse me on aoe fights,) i am not seeing this huge imbalance that needs to be QQ over. Congrats you raid with very terrible brawlers and crusaders..... now you may continue with your I have raided since the conception of man speech and tell us how terrible we all are at playing this game, it has been a complete eye opening experience with this post. </blockquote>

Rahatmattata

04-23-2010, 12:51 PM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>So the designers and developers of the game ... knowing that Crusaders substantially more powerful than Warriors in TSO, and that Guardians in particular were struggling in comparison ... intentionally INCREASED the gap between them as they designed the expansion.That's your theory?</blockquote>No, I think they closed the gap. I don't know what gave you the idea that I have a theory they widened the gap. I haven't even said much about the changes from TSO to SF that I can recall.

BChizzle

04-23-2010, 01:11 PM

<cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote>Crusaders MTing hardmode? or the stuff that can be tanked by rogues?My opinions of brawlers have been the same since T5 when my first ever rolled char was one.6 tanks is to many to balance, 4 is hard but doable,And are you going to deny that brawlers have done nothing but cry since t6? i have raided with top raid guild WW since Eof time till now, so no i havent seen some brawler out perform me, nor one hurt my feelings, thanks for asking though.</blockquote>Ill just +1 what Digg said clearly your crusaders just aren't very good, and I've tanked every instanced hardmode mob in this game on a brawler so whats that really say about your crusaders? Its funny though you being such a great tank that your guild asked you to switch to a different tank as a brawler Ive never been asked by my guild to do the same maybe you shouldn't be bragging about your skills when your own guild makes you change classes.

EasternKing

04-23-2010, 01:22 PM

<cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote> <blockquote> Congrats you raid with very terrible brawlers and crusaders..... now you may continue with your I have raided since the conception of man speech and tell us how terrible we all are at playing this game, it has been a complete eye opening experience with this post. </blockquote></blockquote>So werent you posting yourself in this thread you can out dps Crusaders and brawlers single target, or am i wrong?Guards can with raid gear, gasp the stuff we get from raiding that is perform well single target dps, i am in raid sitting capped crit/da/dps/haste 2.05 crit bonus mod and 55% to 65% potency from my own procs never mind the rest, if you cannot parse well with them kinda numbers, and i know you can do as i have seen you posts, suddenly means i play with crap crusaders nd brawlers? just lol at that.And chain pulling works just as fast as pulling all at once so that is a circular argument as well. no mobs are close enough in any raid zone that you can pull more then 3-4 at a time, and if you cannot hold onto them 3-4 mobs as a guard, then you suck period.So one minute you are telling other guards the very things i have said, and no i say them you join the whining crowd and tell me i am wrong, are you usually this confused?

EasternKing

04-23-2010, 01:27 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote>Crusaders MTing hardmode? or the stuff that can be tanked by rogues?My opinions of brawlers have been the same since T5 when my first ever rolled char was one.6 tanks is to many to balance, 4 is hard but doable,And are you going to deny that brawlers have done nothing but cry since t6? i have raided with top raid guild WW since Eof time till now, so no i havent seen some brawler out perform me, nor one hurt my feelings, thanks for asking though.</blockquote>Ill just +1 what Digg said clearly your crusaders just aren't very good, and I've tanked every instanced hardmode mob in this game on a brawler so whats that really say about your crusaders? Its funny though you being such a great tank that your guild asked you to switch to a different tank as a brawler Ive never been asked by my guild to do the same maybe you shouldn't be bragging about your skills when your own guild makes you change classes.</blockquote>My guild didnt ask me to do jack, i chose to, there is no need for multiples of any tank class in any raid force 1 of each type is more than sufficent. nice try on making this a wow you suck instead of refuting what i am saying with hard cold facts.Grats on tanking hardmode man i am pleased for you really, that does not in any shape or form negate my statment.If they had made brawlers into DPS class's in T6 we would have had 4 fighters to balance and not 6, and with only 4 needing to be balanced and not 6, we wouldnt have had 5+ years of brawler tears all over the forums either. or are you going to tell me i am wrong? and we havent had 5+ years of brawlers crying they should out tank everyone, out dps everyone and out utility everyone (everyone being the other 2 tank archtypes). that is what i recall being the case and the forums will support that as well.there is no need for 6 fighter class's in eq2, they have never ever been able to manage to get them all to work correctly, nor have they managed to date to get them all balanced to the point the tears on the forums stop.

Bruener

04-23-2010, 01:35 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote>Crusaders MTing hardmode? or the stuff that can be tanked by rogues?My opinions of brawlers have been the same since T5 when my first ever rolled char was one.6 tanks is to many to balance, 4 is hard but doable,And are you going to deny that brawlers have done nothing but cry since t6? i have raided with top raid guild WW since Eof time till now, so no i havent seen some brawler out perform me, nor one hurt my feelings, thanks for asking though.</blockquote>Ill just +1 what Digg said clearly your crusaders just aren't very good, and I've tanked every instanced hardmode mob in this game on a brawler so whats that really say about your crusaders? Its funny though you being such a great tank that your guild asked you to switch to a different tank as a brawler Ive never been asked by my guild to do the same maybe you shouldn't be bragging about your skills when your own guild makes you change classes.</blockquote>So your saying Brawlers need a nerf? Because we know they parse just as high if not higher than the other fighters and now they can tank any mob in the game....inc nerf bat. Or wait, maybe that is exactly the situation Crusaders are in too....oh and Warriors. Any fighter with the right gear and right support can tank any encounter in this game. Its just with Guards it is a lot lot less stress on their support.Again, as I have never tried to hide I speak from a raid stand point. Like Eastern said a little ways up I don't care about the performance of tanks in heroic zones because yes any CLASS in this game could tank a zone. If some tweaks need to be made to make Guards better at that content than by all means go for it....but those tweaks better not have any affect at the raid level.Lets see some ideas I had for Guards that would have gone a long ways.....Group Moderate, wow imagine that one getting implemented and making a huge difference with bouncing agro grouping with more than 1 dps. Threat crits made a big difference as well. Oh the good reinforcement suggestion I came up with where it could be changed to an AE threat reducer to the Guards group in addition to the positional increase for fighters. So yeah, maybe there could be some tweaks made to help Guards out in heroic content even more, not that it is hard to tank any heroic instance in this game.But just like Beta what we don't need is calling for a nerf to a class due to heroic content when it could be very detrimental at the raid level and vice versa calling for massive buffs to a class because of heroic content that would completely unseat balance at the raid level.

EasternKing

04-23-2010, 01:43 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote>Crusaders MTing hardmode? or the stuff that can be tanked by rogues?My opinions of brawlers have been the same since T5 when my first ever rolled char was one.6 tanks is to many to balance, 4 is hard but doable,And are you going to deny that brawlers have done nothing but cry since t6? i have raided with top raid guild WW since Eof time till now, so no i havent seen some brawler out perform me, nor one hurt my feelings, thanks for asking though.</blockquote>Ill just +1 what Digg said clearly your crusaders just aren't very good, and I've tanked every instanced hardmode mob in this game on a brawler so whats that really say about your crusaders? Its funny though you being such a great tank that your guild asked you to switch to a different tank as a brawler Ive never been asked by my guild to do the same maybe you shouldn't be bragging about your skills when your own guild makes you change classes.</blockquote>So your saying Brawlers need a nerf? Because we know they parse just as high if not higher than the other fighters and now they can tank any mob in the game....inc nerf bat. Or wait, maybe that is exactly the situation Crusaders are in too....oh and Warriors. Any fighter with the right gear and right support can tank any encounter in this game. Its just with Guards it is a lot lot less stress on their support.Again, as I have never tried to hide I speak from a raid stand point. Like Eastern said a little ways up I don't care about the performance of tanks in heroic zones because yes any CLASS in this game could tank a zone. If some tweaks need to be made to make Guards better at that content than by all means go for it....but those tweaks better not have any affect at the raid level.Lets see some ideas I had for Guards that would have gone a long ways.....Group Moderate, wow imagine that one getting implemented and making a huge difference with bouncing agro grouping with more than 1 dps. Threat crits made a big difference as well. Oh the good reinforcement suggestion I came up with where it could be changed to an AE threat reducer to the Guards group in addition to the positional increase for fighters. So yeah, maybe there could be some tweaks made to help Guards out in heroic content even more, not that it is hard to tank any heroic instance in this game.But just like Beta what we don't need is calling for a nerf to a class due to heroic content when it could be very detrimental at the raid level and vice versa calling for massive buffs to a class because of heroic content that would completely unseat balance at the raid level.</blockquote>surprise surprise all is not wasted, someone gets it, the forums arent a total waste of time.No tank class in EQ2 atm needs massive sweeping changes to it, to do its job in a heroic zone or in a raid zone.People just want everything as always.

Rocc

04-23-2010, 01:51 PM

I would say that's not completly true. SK's are the topic here. And the topic (and I'll say what we all want to say) is that SK's with DM and other CA's are too powerful! Plain and simple, just as the topic title implies. No plate tank should be able to solo a T8 instance by themselves (yes I seen a guildy do it). The dps and tankabiliy arent supposed to go hand in hand. Mages wear garbage bags for a reason!

Bruener

04-23-2010, 01:55 PM

<cite>Rocc@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would say that's not completly true. SK's are the topic here. And the topic (and I'll say what we all want to say) is that SK's with DM and other CA's are too powerful! Plain and simple, just as the topic title implies. No plate tank should be able to solo a T8 instance by themselves (yes I seen a guildy do it). The dps and tankabiliy arent supposed to go hand in hand. Mages wear garbage bags for a reason!</blockquote>Well every fighter class can solo T8 heroic zones........OOOPPSSS!!!!

EasternKing

04-23-2010, 01:59 PM

<cite>Rocc@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would say that's not completly true. SK's are the topic here. And the topic (and I'll say what we all want to say) is that SK's with DM and other CA's are too powerful! Plain and simple, just as the topic title implies. No plate tank should be able to solo a T8 instance by themselves (yes I seen a guildy do it). The dps and tankabiliy arent supposed to go hand in hand. Mages wear garbage bags for a reason!</blockquote>amazing so should my guard, my guild bruiser / my guild zerker / my guild paladin, all be nerfed b/cos they solo heroic zones daily too?

Bruener

04-23-2010, 02:00 PM

<cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote>surprise surprise all is not wasted, someone gets it, the forums arent a total waste of time.No tank class in EQ2 atm needs massive sweeping changes to it, to do its job in a heroic zone or in a raid zone.People just want everything as always.</blockquote>Oh I know. In fact Beta was disgusting because of the grossly OP'd changes people were asking for for their own classes. Of course any time you pointed out how obviously OP'ing it was they were like rabid dogs jumping on you because they werer fighting for everything they could to make thier class the best tank in every situation.Luckily the Devs can see thru the garbage that people keep putting out. Like the fact SKs still remain a scape goat even though the other fighters operate just as well if not better in the areas of DPS, Survivability, or Agro.

Obadiah

04-23-2010, 02:05 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote>surprise surprise all is not wasted, someone gets it, the forums arent a total waste of time.No tank class in EQ2 atm needs massive sweeping changes to it, to do its job in a heroic zone or in a raid zone.People just want everything as always.</blockquote>Oh I know. In fact Beta was disgusting because of the grossly OP'd changes people were asking for for their own classes. Of course any time you pointed out how obviously OP'ing it was they were like rabid dogs jumping on you because they werer fighting for everything they could to make thier class the best tank in every situation.Luckily the Devs can see thru the garbage that people keep putting out. Like the fact SKs still remain a scape goat even though the other fighters operate just as well if not better in the areas of DPS, Survivability, or Agro.</blockquote>Yeah, the OP changes people were asking for were almost as bad as the people begging for nerfs to other fighter abilities they didn't even understand. Luckily the Devs can see through the garbage that people keep putting out.

Rocc

04-23-2010, 02:07 PM

Lets see a guardian or zerker solo a TSO dungeon. I dont care about red adornments, BG gear, clickies, whatever, there's no frickin way a plate tank should ba able to do that. I'm not talking maidens chamber, I'm talking TSO stuff like the palace for example. No class, I dont care what it is, should have that much dps combined with survivability.

BChizzle

04-23-2010, 02:12 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>So your saying Brawlers need a nerf? Because we know they parse just as high if not higher than the other fighters and now they can tank any mob in the game....inc nerf bat.But just like Beta what we don't need is calling for a nerf to a class due to heroic content when it could be very detrimental at the raid level and vice versa calling for massive buffs to a class because of heroic content that would completely unseat balance at the raid level.</blockquote>Contradict yourself much?

Bruener

04-23-2010, 02:24 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>So your saying Brawlers need a nerf? Because we know they parse just as high if not higher than the other fighters and now they can tank any mob in the game....inc nerf bat.But just like Beta what we don't need is calling for a nerf to a class due to heroic content when it could be very detrimental at the raid level and vice versa calling for massive buffs to a class because of heroic content that would completely unseat balance at the raid level.</blockquote>Contradict yourself much?</blockquote>Where does what I say contradict anywhere? I spoke from a raid stand point....and besides one issue that took 10+ pages for a Zerker to actually explain how it worked...the posting I did was to counter the ridiculous asking every other fighter class did for their own class. You know like Zerkers complaining that their end line ability was completely junk when come to find out it heals more than any other fighter class and is an extremely awesome ability. Or Guards asking for Reinforcement to be a fast recast blue AE with 5+ hate position increaser for Guards. Or Brawlers completely trying to down-play their ability to control hate better than any other fighter class and saying their DPS was not good at all when what we see is highest DPS and also reaching mitigation of plate tanks along with much higher 360 avoidance...but that wasn't enough.What I really find ironic is that some of the people posting here about how things seem pretty balanced, especially at the raid level, are the same exact people mentioned earlier that knew their class was going to come out very good from beta but made sure to put in input to keep trying to grab more and more.I will be the first area to admit where I was wrong from beta, the area of crit bonus on Crusaders. Luckily just like Devs didn't listen to everybody elses dumb claims they ignored my ignorant one. Of course the crit bonus was extremely hard to test out in a raid setting with the gear taht I have now.

Landiin

04-23-2010, 02:26 PM

Why do we even bother responding to people like easteregg and bruener. EVERY one knows Crusaders, SK in general are OP. Every one knows that the guard got some loven for heroic content. EVERY one knows that guard has the best single target survivability. EVERY one knows that once a raid force is geared it is more productive to bench the guard if your raid has one and replace them with a crusader, SK if possible.

Aull

04-23-2010, 02:45 PM

We are all just like a big family Toran. We like to bicker and throw a few punches here and there. I for one really try and read what everyone is say. As long as it is not insain rambling.I know many times in the past I have made posts that were not concrete/false and based strickly from what I heard from another player. BChizz has many times put me in my place. I didn't like to admit it to myself but he was correct.Main thing is keeping it all true is what matters.Like sk's are OP!!Now someone hit me. LOLAll in all I agree with many of you. I for one agree that six fighters are just to many to try and have so called balance. Noone wants to play a class that is not able to compete but eveyone wants to be king of the hill too.Not everyone can be pleased at the same time.

Obadiah

04-23-2010, 03:03 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>So your saying Brawlers need a nerf? Because we know they parse just as high if not higher than the other fighters and now they can tank any mob in the game....inc nerf bat.But just like Beta what we don't need is calling for a nerf to a class due to heroic content when it could be very detrimental at the raid level and vice versa calling for massive buffs to a class because of heroic content that would completely unseat balance at the raid level.</blockquote>Contradict yourself much?</blockquote>Where does what I say contradict anywhere?</blockquote>I think he means that since you couldn't go a day in the beta without asking for nerfs to other fighters, to now say "what we don't need is calling for a nerf to a class" seems self-contradictory. Why Berserkers would owe you an explanation of a two year old ability is beyond me, but it took 10 pages for you to understand what was already contained in the 4th response to your post, not 10 pages for someone to explain it.

BChizzle

04-23-2010, 03:27 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>We are all just like a big family Toran. We like to bicker and throw a few punches here and there. I for one really try and read what everyone is say. As long as it is not insain rambling.I know many times in the past I have made posts that were not concrete/false and based strickly from what I heard from another player. BChizz has many times put me in my place. I didn't like to admit it to myself but he was correct.Main thing is keeping it all true is what matters.Like sk's are OP!!Now someone hit me. LOLAll in all I agree with many of you. I for one agree that six fighters are just to many to try and have so called balance. Noone wants to play a class that is not able to compete but eveyone wants to be king of the hill too.Not everyone can be pleased at the same time.</blockquote>LOL, I think SK's are as perfect as you are going to get, I don't think they are OP at all. What I do think is some of the other classes could use some help to balance things out. And 6 fighters really aren't that hard to balance out the problem with brawlers was around the whole avoidance tanking concept not with the actual brawler class as soon as they started giving brawlers mit things got better.Now where I believe a real imbalance exists right now for tanks is in single target vs ae tanks. It has NOTHING to do with survivability AE tanks are able to to be more effective on single targets then single target tanks are able to do on AE encounters and there is NO fair trade off. The solution is to up the single target tanks dps on single targets plain and simple.I can be fully MT hate buffed and on a single target mob and if he wants the SK can take and hold agro on that single target mob better then me plus parse just as high from outside of the MT group and there is NOTHING I can do about it that is dumb since I can't even begin to come close if the situation is reversed on AE targets. That is a glaring imbalance.

Sleap

04-23-2010, 03:44 PM

You guys still ranting in this subject? Warriors got some love in this xpac, i dont mind grouping with Guards/Zerkers. If you talk to ppl in Infamous, they will probably tell you Trumak (guardian) is prob best tank on the server, i havent grouped with him personally, but as far as i know he leads his guild in raids. Yes a Guardian, not a SK, not a Pally, a Guardian. Guardians can be excellent, you just got to know how to play your class and get the gear to do it with, plain and simple. If you think SK's are so overpowered, then make one and stop complaining. Its a game <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Obadiah

04-23-2010, 03:47 PM

<cite>Primel@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You guys still ranting in this subject? Warriors got some love in this xpac, i dont mind grouping with Guards/Zerkers. If you talk to ppl in Infamous, they will probably tell you Trumak (guardian) is prob best tank on the server, i havent grouped with him personally, but as far as i know he leads his guild in raids. Yes a Guardian, not a SK, not a Pally, a Guardian. Guardians can be excellent, you just got to know how to play your class and get the gear to do it with, plain and simple. If you think SK's are so overpowered, then make one and stop complaining. Its a game <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>People HAD stopped ranting on this subject. The thread died in February. Ironically, it was resurrected by someone who opened with "I have limited sympathy for this thread" and then proceeded to breathe life back into it. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />

steelbadger

04-23-2010, 03:50 PM

<cite>Primel@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You guys still ranting in this subject? Warriors got some love in this xpac, i dont mind grouping with Guards/Zerkers. If you talk to ppl in Infamous, they will probably tell you Trumak (guardian) is prob best tank on the server, i havent grouped with him personally, but as far as i know he leads his guild in raids. Yes a Guardian, not a SK, not a Pally, a Guardian. Guardians can be excellent, you just got to know how to play your class and get the gear to do it with, plain and simple. If you think SK's are so overpowered, then make one and stop complaining. Its a game <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I hesitate to mention it but I believe Trumak has been playing his SK as of late <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />

Sleap

04-23-2010, 04:00 PM

<cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite><blockquote>I hesitate to mention it but I believe Trumak has been playing his SK as of late <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Oh ya? i dont know his SK, i only see him on his Guard <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but you have to admit, he is a good tank.

Rahatmattata

04-23-2010, 04:05 PM

The bottom line is shadowknights (and paladins IMO) are OP, and almost everyone would agree. Just bring it up in world chat on your server and most people will agree shadowknights are OP, or they will say something lame like "shadowknights are fine, other fighters need to be buffed to be on par"... essentially admitting they think shadowknights are OP.The game is already easy enough without boosting all fighters to have the whole package crusaders get. If all fighters could mass pull encounters, make warlocks play hard to not get out-parsed, and let everyone in the group full burn 100% of the time on any mob they choose... it's not even really a game at that point. It's like playing Doom with god-mode and you can't lose. Yay?

BChizzle

04-23-2010, 04:05 PM

<cite>Primel@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite><blockquote>I hesitate to mention it but I believe Trumak has been playing his SK as of late <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Oh ya? i dont know his SK, i only see him on his Guard <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> but you have to admit, he is a good tank.</blockquote>He only plays his SK now. So the 'best' guard on your server is an SK now what does that say?

arksun

04-23-2010, 04:16 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Primel@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite><blockquote>I hesitate to mention it but I believe Trumak has been playing his SK as of late <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Oh ya? i dont know his SK, i only see him on his Guard <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> but you have to admit, he is a good tank.</blockquote>He only plays his SK now. So the 'best' guard on your server is an SK now what does that say?</blockquote>Come on why would the best Guardian on the server switch to an SK... something can't be right with that./sarcasm off.

Bruener

04-23-2010, 04:29 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Primel@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite><blockquote>I hesitate to mention it but I believe Trumak has been playing his SK as of late <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Oh ya? i dont know his SK, i only see him on his Guard <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> but you have to admit, he is a good tank.</blockquote>He only plays his SK now. So the 'best' guard on your server is an SK now what does that say?</blockquote>You make it sound like he chose to stop playing his Guard. Or more likely as he told me he wanted to be able to say he has tanked with every fighter type...

Rahatmattata

04-23-2010, 04:44 PM

Here is a <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=477124" target="_blank">thread</a> I found interesting.

Darkonx

04-24-2010, 02:23 PM

<cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Primel@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You guys still ranting in this subject? Warriors got some love in this xpac, i dont mind grouping with Guards/Zerkers. If you talk to ppl in Infamous, they will probably tell you Trumak (guardian) is prob best tank on the server, i havent grouped with him personally, but as far as i know he leads his guild in raids. Yes a Guardian, not a SK, not a Pally, a Guardian. Guardians can be excellent, you just got to know how to play your class and get the gear to do it with, plain and simple. If you think SK's are so overpowered, then make one and stop complaining. Its a game <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I hesitate to mention it but I believe Trumak has been playing his SK as of late <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>He switched. Yes. His Guardian is also naked.

Obadiah

04-24-2010, 02:40 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Primel@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You guys still ranting in this subject? Warriors got some love in this xpac, i dont mind grouping with Guards/Zerkers. If you talk to ppl in Infamous, they will probably tell you Trumak (guardian) is prob best tank on the server, i havent grouped with him personally, but as far as i know he leads his guild in raids. Yes a Guardian, not a SK, not a Pally, a Guardian. Guardians can be excellent, you just got to know how to play your class and get the gear to do it with, plain and simple. If you think SK's are so overpowered, then make one and stop complaining. Its a game <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I hesitate to mention it but I believe Trumak has been playing his SK as of late <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>He switched. Yes. His Guardian is also naked.</blockquote>Is he REALLY naked, or just naked because EQ2Players can't be bothered to update to include items from an expansion until the next expansion?

BChizzle

04-24-2010, 04:10 PM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Primel@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You guys still ranting in this subject? Warriors got some love in this xpac, i dont mind grouping with Guards/Zerkers. If you talk to ppl in Infamous, they will probably tell you Trumak (guardian) is prob best tank on the server, i havent grouped with him personally, but as far as i know he leads his guild in raids. Yes a Guardian, not a SK, not a Pally, a Guardian. Guardians can be excellent, you just got to know how to play your class and get the gear to do it with, plain and simple. If you think SK's are so overpowered, then make one and stop complaining. Its a game <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I hesitate to mention it but I believe Trumak has been playing his SK as of late <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>He switched. Yes. His Guardian is also naked.</blockquote>Is he REALLY naked, or just naked because EQ2Players can't be bothered to update to include items from an expansion until the next expansion?</blockquote>He's still the best tank on that server naked tbh.

juggalo0385

04-30-2010, 06:39 PM

SKs and Pallies are more powerful than warriors because SKs and Pallies are better than warriors. true fact

Kota

04-30-2010, 07:09 PM

there we have it. the truth.

Wasuna

05-01-2010, 02:37 PM

<cite>juggalo0385 wrote:</cite><blockquote>SKs and Pallies are more powerful than warriors because SKs and Pallies are better than warriors. true fact</blockquote>Yep. We all know it. Just wish SOE would address it.

Landiin

05-01-2010, 03:40 PM

Are Crusaders a Hybrid class in EQ2?

Rahatmattata

05-01-2010, 05:35 PM

They melee, cast spells, and heal so... yea.

Landiin

05-01-2010, 06:16 PM

Then by the very meaning of hybrids in fantasy based games, they should not expect to fill the roles of the classes they are derived from as well as the parent class.

Phelon_Skellhound

05-02-2010, 01:24 AM

<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Then by the very meaning of hybrids in fantasy based games, they should not expect to fill the roles of the classes they are derived from as well as the parent class.</blockquote>Crusaders are hybrids by definition. Problem that ensued is the notion "Crusaders are part time tanks and it would be better to wait for a Warrior class tank." Or "Hey, we'll take a crusader for now but when a warrior is LFG we're gonna drop you for him/her." Once upon a time SK's had a running joke, "You couldnt spell suck without SK." In fact 2 expansions ago there was absolutely zero need or desire to even bring a Crusader into a raid guild cuz all you needed was a Warrior class or 2. Crusaders were paper tanks.SOE's vission is that each class can do what the other can, but in different ways. Over balancing and re-balancing of the classes and their abilities, leads us to where we are today... The only class now that has any major issues is Guardians and group encounters. Paladins, SK's and Berzerkers all perform well. Guardians are the single target beasts among tanks. So your statement on paper is sound, the problem is it doesnt sell.

Gungo

05-02-2010, 01:56 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Primel@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite><blockquote>I hesitate to mention it but I believe Trumak has been playing his SK as of late <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Oh ya? i dont know his SK, i only see him on his Guard <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> but you have to admit, he is a good tank.</blockquote>He only plays his SK now. So the 'best' guard on your server is an SK now what does that say?</blockquote>it says his gear was stripped for battleground exploits.

Rahatmattata

05-02-2010, 04:41 AM

<cite>Khatiru@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guardians are the single target beasts among tanks.</blockquote>Yay.

Kota

05-06-2010, 06:29 PM

ok i've been compiling parses for like a week and a half, and i have an answer, but the answer has been here the whole time. since long before the current expansion, ppl have been saying, in truth, that auto attack counts for less of SK's overall parse than other things. contrarily, a zerk's auto attack counts for the majority of his/her parse. why is that ? well that's easy: all things being equal, weapon, mob, buffs, etc, they both toons will do equal auto attack damage (not counting crit mults, because 1) this disparity has been here since tso and 2) the crit mult difference is too low to bridge the gap, read the whole thing to understand why) but an sk's spells will do significantly more damage. so, auto attack damage being, say, 4k dps for both tanks, but while the sk pulls another 6k from spells/procs, the zerk pulls 3-4k from spells and procs. i parsed 7 raids and there's just no denying it. sk spells >> zerk ca's. by a wide margin. for my parse, 1 of my top 9 dps abilities is a ca. the rest are procs/pom/cob/etc. for an sk, it's like 5 of 9. this will be easy for anyone to parse out. check it out. yes i know warriors got a higher crit mult in the new expansion. but, the bottom line, it wasn't enough. we need like 10 more.

Azzad

05-12-2010, 08:45 PM

The root of the problem is requiring DPS to hold aggro. It's got all of you so worried about the SKs dps numbers you forget your job shouldn't require ANY dps. Its a design flaw.

Kota

05-14-2010, 05:22 PM

i know this. but it is what it is

Darkonx

05-14-2010, 07:23 PM

<cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>ok i've been compiling parses for like a week and a half, and i have an answer, but the answer has been here the whole time. since long before the current expansion, ppl have been saying, in truth, that auto attack counts for less of SK's overall parse than other things. contrarily, a zerk's auto attack counts for the majority of his/her parse. why is that ? well that's easy: all things being equal, weapon, mob, buffs, etc, they both toons will do equal auto attack damage (not counting crit mults, because 1) this disparity has been here since tso and 2) the crit mult difference is too low to bridge the gap, read the whole thing to understand why) but an sk's spells will do significantly more damage. so, auto attack damage being, say, 4k dps for both tanks, but while the sk pulls another 6k from spells/procs, the zerk pulls 3-4k from spells and procs. i parsed 7 raids and there's just no denying it. sk spells >> zerk ca's. by a wide margin. for my parse, 1 of my top 9 dps abilities is a ca. the rest are procs/pom/cob/etc. for an sk, it's like 5 of 9. this will be easy for anyone to parse out. check it out. yes i know warriors got a higher crit mult in the new expansion. but, the bottom line, it wasn't enough. we need like 10 more.</blockquote>Your 1) is wrong, The disparity has NOT been there since TSO. During TSO everyones base CB was 130, now Warriors/Brawlers have 150, and Crusaders still have 130. Your 2) is wrong as well. +30 off the base, vs +50 off the base, is nearly double. That's a very significant difference. Also, berserkers in particular get 100% AE auto attack, which grants a ton of additional damage on fights where there are multiple encounters. These are the reasons a berserker in particular relies more heavily on AA to parse high.

Kota

05-17-2010, 04:37 AM

sounds like you agree with me. auto atk damage was equal in tso. same crit mult. anyway i'm not gonna argue with you over numbers. parse your guild's sk and parse your guild's zerk. the sk will get a lot more damage from their spells than the zerk will get from ca's. just parse it. i have 250 aa btw, and zerk aa's really don't do much for dps.

Darkonx

05-17-2010, 05:07 AM

<cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>sounds like you agree with me. auto atk damage was equal in tso. same crit mult. anyway i'm not gonna argue with you over numbers. parse your guild's sk and parse your guild's zerk. the sk will get a lot more damage from their spells than the zerk will get from ca's. just parse it. i have 250 aa btw, and zerk aa's really don't do much for dps.</blockquote>Read what I said. During TSO everyones base CB was 130, now warriors have 150, and crusaders still have 130. This disparity only arose with SF. Again, it did not exist during TSO.

Kota

05-17-2010, 05:09 AM

dude.....the auto attack damage is roughly the same. crusaders get some deal that boosts 1h damage. just ****ing parse it. parse warrior ca damage vs sk spell damage.

Emlar_from_Halas

05-17-2010, 08:33 AM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your 1) is wrong, The disparity has NOT been there since TSO. During TSO everyones base CB was 130, now Warriors/Brawlers have 150, and Crusaders still have 130. Your 2) is wrong as well. +30 off the base, vs +50 off the base, is nearly double. That's a very significant difference. Also, berserkers in particular get 100% AE auto attack, which grants a ton of additional damage on fights where there are multiple encounters. These are the reasons a berserker in particular relies more heavily on AA to parse high.</blockquote>The base crit bonus difference comes from SoF, you're right.But the 20% meless crit bonus gain on a mythical weapon (54/308 min/max dmg) is only 6.22%.I would qualify this by "small improvment" on auto attack.The gain on melee CA is, at best, below 11% for small spread dmg CAs.

Celelyris

05-23-2010, 04:15 AM

OP,How about I sum this up quickly, though not as brief as you did in the one sentence complaint as you did. I apologize for the length, but thought was put into this.Warriors make great tanks. They take great damage. Unfortunately, I think all of the Fighter class is pretty good at this.Berserkers, since inception with GoD in EQLive (EQ1) (and please, accept the fact that this entire game is based upon EQLive and don't give me spiels about how this isn't EQLive or "I don't know anything about EQLive") have been damage classes and "paper tanks" while warriors have been "proper tanks". Guardians, what would be a warrior in EQ1 have always been loved for the combat arts (disciplines) in EQLive that enabled them to do some serious damage mitigation and also get hate on one target quite easily without skillful play but it definitely required some knowledge of your class to do it well. On the other hand, in EQLive an SK had abilities that were spell based that allowed damage shielding, what would be called "warding", life tap, snares, DoTs and direct damage as well as some basic hate skills.When you say powerful, I know exactly what you mean. All spell casters have a ton of utility spells and some focuses on certain lore-generated aspects of what makes up their class. However, why would you ever give a Guaridian, "the warrior" the same abilities and class defining attributes, even with a makeover and different graphics and names? SKs have a great class definition and what it comes down to is they generate a great deal of their hate from constant DPS as well as a limited set of hate generating skills. I guarantee you that as an SK in EQLive of equal level gear and AA would sometimes top the hate list for a few seconds but when it came down to it, it took skill. The funny thing about playing a caster in EQ1 was it was more than just a few button mashing, whereas a warrior could tape down the key assigned to the taunt key and fire off combat disciplines when they needed to deflect or mitigate incoming damage. SKs took skill to play well and had a great number of abilities. It seems that in EQII that every class has been given a larger number of abilities and largely it requires more attention and the use of more skills for some classes in EQII, such as Guardians (Warriors) to do their job. Now, in either game warrior has melee, bow, combat arts and thrown weapons.A shadowknight has melee, bow and spells / combat arts. The spells set them apart. Some are usable for AE Hate generation.Even with the Berserker warrior class, there is some AE aggro.However, it takes much more effort to level and fill in a role in a party for a Guardian.SKs are accepted in groups with a Guardian and berserker already because you only need 1-2 healers and the other spot or 2 can be filled by DPS. A guardian however, not playing the MT role -- just like the Warrior class in EQLive will not be invited to join a party because they don't have much to give if there is not an acceptance of that Guardian being the main tank. As an SK, I wouldn't invite a Guardian to my group because I have no need for one.SKs and Berserkers thus are more fun to play, if only because they have more function to a group than the one role.SKs are easy to level and thus get more groups because they can solo.In a more limited fashion Berserkers are relative go Guardians, easy to level and I'd rather play with someone who can keep up with me in levels - if a class can get groups without being in a static group by filling more than one role or solo effectively, they'll keep up.Measuring the concern that Guardians aren't as powerful as SKs. What made you think we'd get a warrior class able to do damage and take more damage than any other? Berserkers already fill the damage role. And a Guardian being that damaging wouldn't "put them in the same league as SKs", it would break the the class model that there is for Guardians (warriors) and I guarantee you that won't be revisited because though EQII may be an alternate timeline, classes are classes or else we get Hero classes like the old rumor from WoW.Would I like to see that I can change my character through lots of time to be a Hero? Yes. But, the games were already designed with this in mind with the leveling and Alternate Advancement systems.It's not SOE's fault that making a class like to fit what people have in mind makes them less fun to play or that they have limited roles outside of a Main Tank in a group makeup. Get over it. SKs aren't overpowered. The player emphasis put upon them and showing how much more they can do is only there because Guardians Are Not Fun To Play. It's great when you're the Guild Raid's Main Tank but when you're Mr. Nobody who can't keep AE hate for leveling, you and everyone else wants it changed. Look, they already gave us the ability to get XP with our friends with Recruit A Friend and asking for anything else for slow levelers of whatever situation is pathetic. If every Guardian uses potions and RAF I'm sure they could keep up to tank. I'm sorry you don't like Guardian but if you need to delude yourself and put the Guardian/Warrior name and cut it out of the Class List and paste it over Shadowknight, that's your shortcoming and people like you spread the memes that SKs were overpowered in EQLive and they are now. It's not class balance that you have in mind, it's making the roles all the same. Suck it up and quit complaining so people like myself don't post exactly what's wrong with your one sentence about the one role wonders. I'm not crying that they made 4 classes that are capable tanks nor do I cry that many times my guild will only accept a paladin as the main tank because of the healing abilities they have. Now, please go back to the forum pool and when you post the same thing about Paladins as "Why are Paladins so much more powerful as Raid Tanks than other Fighters?" I won't be surprised and I'll know better than the post more than a url to this thread for those readers who haven't experienced that which is you.And by the way, any class can do damage and take hate. But the part of being good at your class is having finesse, such as when a wizard or berserker or assassin or Shadowknight doesn't overdo the combat arts and spells so much that they take the hate. You have to learn to throttle back for the way things currently are. Even healers know this. If you're having a problem with single-target hate you may want to consider that there's nothing wrong with your class but there is something wrong with your group members and fellow raiders who either don't have the right -Hate gear or don't know how to play their class or when they should start DPS in combat. This game and EQLive do take skill and it's intended, not some unintended incidental class-defining accident of creation.

Siatfallen

05-24-2010, 08:29 AM

<cite>Celelyris wrote:</cite><blockquote>OP,How about I sum this up quickly, though not as brief as you did in the one sentence complaint as you did. I apologize for the length, but thought was put into this.Warriors make great tanks. They take great damage. Unfortunately, I think all of the Fighter class is pretty good at this.Berserkers, since inception with GoD in EQLive (EQ1) (and please, accept the fact that this entire game is based upon EQLive and don't give me spiels about how this isn't EQLive or "I don't know anything about EQLive") have been damage classes and "paper tanks" while warriors have been "proper tanks". Guardians, what would be a warrior in EQ1 have always been loved for the combat arts (disciplines) in EQLive that enabled them to do some serious damage mitigation and also get hate on one target quite easily without skillful play but it definitely required some knowledge of your class to do it well. On the other hand, in EQLive an SK had abilities that were spell based that allowed damage shielding, what would be called "warding", life tap, snares, DoTs and direct damage as well as some basic hate skills.When you say powerful, I know exactly what you mean. All spell casters have a ton of utility spells and some focuses on certain lore-generated aspects of what makes up their class. However, why would you ever give a Guaridian, "the warrior" the same abilities and class defining attributes, even with a makeover and different graphics and names? SKs have a great class definition and what it comes down to is they generate a great deal of their hate from constant DPS as well as a limited set of hate generating skills. I guarantee you that as an SK in EQLive of equal level gear and AA would sometimes top the hate list for a few seconds but when it came down to it, it took skill. The funny thing about playing a caster in EQ1 was it was more than just a few button mashing, whereas a warrior could tape down the key assigned to the taunt key and fire off combat disciplines when they needed to deflect or mitigate incoming damage. SKs took skill to play well and had a great number of abilities. It seems that in EQII that every class has been given a larger number of abilities and largely it requires more attention and the use of more skills for some classes in EQII, such as Guardians (Warriors) to do their job. Now, in either game warrior has melee, bow, combat arts and thrown weapons.A shadowknight has melee, bow and spells / combat arts. The spells set them apart. Some are usable for AE Hate generation.Even with the Berserker warrior class, there is some AE aggro.However, it takes much more effort to level and fill in a role in a party for a Guardian.SKs are accepted in groups with a Guardian and berserker already because you only need 1-2 healers and the other spot or 2 can be filled by DPS. A guardian however, not playing the MT role -- just like the Warrior class in EQLive will not be invited to join a party because they don't have much to give if there is not an acceptance of that Guardian being the main tank. As an SK, I wouldn't invite a Guardian to my group because I have no need for one.SKs and Berserkers thus are more fun to play, if only because they have more function to a group than the one role.SKs are easy to level and thus get more groups because they can solo.In a more limited fashion Berserkers are relative go Guardians, easy to level and I'd rather play with someone who can keep up with me in levels - if a class can get groups without being in a static group by filling more than one role or solo effectively, they'll keep up.Measuring the concern that Guardians aren't as powerful as SKs. What made you think we'd get a warrior class able to do damage and take more damage than any other? Berserkers already fill the damage role. And a Guardian being that damaging wouldn't "put them in the same league as SKs", it would break the the class model that there is for Guardians (warriors) and I guarantee you that won't be revisited because though EQII may be an alternate timeline, classes are classes or else we get Hero classes like the old rumor from WoW.Would I like to see that I can change my character through lots of time to be a Hero? Yes. But, the games were already designed with this in mind with the leveling and Alternate Advancement systems.It's not SOE's fault that making a class like to fit what people have in mind makes them less fun to play or that they have limited roles outside of a Main Tank in a group makeup. Get over it. SKs aren't overpowered. The player emphasis put upon them and showing how much more they can do is only there because Guardians Are Not Fun To Play. It's great when you're the Guild Raid's Main Tank but when you're Mr. Nobody who can't keep AE hate for leveling, you and everyone else wants it changed. Look, they already gave us the ability to get XP with our friends with Recruit A Friend and asking for anything else for slow levelers of whatever situation is pathetic. If every Guardian uses potions and RAF I'm sure they could keep up to tank. I'm sorry you don't like Guardian but if you need to delude yourself and put the Guardian/Warrior name and cut it out of the Class List and paste it over Shadowknight, that's your shortcoming and people like you spread the memes that SKs were overpowered in EQLive and they are now. It's not class balance that you have in mind, it's making the roles all the same. Suck it up and quit complaining so people like myself don't post exactly what's wrong with your one sentence about the one role wonders. I'm not crying that they made 4 classes that are capable tanks nor do I cry that many times my guild will only accept a paladin as the main tank because of the healing abilities they have. Now, please go back to the forum pool and when you post the same thing about Paladins as "Why are Paladins so much more powerful as Raid Tanks than other Fighters?" I won't be surprised and I'll know better than the post more than a url to this thread for those readers who haven't experienced that which is you.And by the way, any class can do damage and take hate. But the part of being good at your class is having finesse, such as when a wizard or berserker or assassin or Shadowknight doesn't overdo the combat arts and spells so much that they take the hate. You have to learn to throttle back for the way things currently are. Even healers know this. If you're having a problem with single-target hate you may want to consider that there's nothing wrong with your class but there is something wrong with your group members and fellow raiders who either don't have the right -Hate gear or don't know how to play their class or when they should start DPS in combat. This game and EQLive do take skill and it's intended, not some unintended incidental class-defining accident of creation.</blockquote>tldr version:By concept, Shadowknights are meant to be more diverse than Guardians.Guardians are meant to be the class designed for one in 24 people running as the MT of a raid. Given that, say, 5% of the player-base cares to raid as their primary playstyle (and that's being generous), that means the required percentage of guardians would be 5% of 1/24... 0.2% of the toons in the game. I also think this is an optimal situation.I've included various vague examples from EQ1 and EQlive included to justify this as being the existing concept.However, for reasons I'm forgetting to make obvious here, SKs are also meant to be as good at what the Guardian does as the Guardian.In conclusion: Shadowknights are meant to be where they are now. If you're a Guardian and you don't like it, suck it up and accept that your class is meant to be inferior in all contexts but raid MTing - which, as we all know, is a major part of the game for the vast majority of players. There, they get to play on more or less equal grounds.Did I miss any substantial argument in the above? As you may be able to guess, I don't agree.

Grumpy_Warrior_01

05-24-2010, 09:22 AM

When you get a wall of text like that, generally somebody's trying to sell you a swamp in Arizona.

Prestissimo

05-27-2010, 01:37 AM

Every tank should spank and be spanked by the other tanks at SOMETHING. There should be a definitive reason why you want x tank class and that reason should not include being the OP flavor of the expansion.Paladins use to be the kings of agro and they paid for it with their survivability/damage preventions or namely, the complete lack of them. Guardians use to be the kings of tanking single target tough mobs except for the heavy mem-wipers. Not all the tanks had something that they were the best at though.There will always be people that want their tank to be the FotM tank class and to have massively overpowered "I win buttons" but when I play my paladin, I simply want to have the tools at my disposal that I can do one job better than every other fighter class, and there be a cost that I suffer for it. Being invincible is awesome, but it gets really old really fast.I want challenge mixed with having to pay attention so I don't get my self swatted back to the revive point but not overly difficult that I'm popping a bot every boss and having to wear some raid gear or the best of all the other current level heroic zones to have a prayer of killing a heroic dungeon's boss. (PoF pre-epic-nerf or third Guk for example)

MurFalad

06-02-2010, 02:46 PM

I think the answer to why SK's are the most powerful Warriors is1) Mobs are dumb. Everywhere I go in the level 70+ zones the mobs are utterly dumb. Even when they have ranged attacks they run into melee and stay there until they die.If mobs could figure out not to stand in the fire (ie people's aura abilities) when they have an option (e.g. they have ranged attacks) then other tanks would be viable, as it is this game design along with the trend for ever larger groups of mobs only caters for Crusaders.2) High damage on combat arts, I have never played a Shadow knight, but on my alchemist when I was crafting abilities that hit for 3-4k at (from memory) level 60 its clear that they do a lot more damage, especially when the non physical damage they inflict cuts through plate like its not there. In the past the game design was that Guardians had the most survivability, this meant no other class was viable main tanking which I don't think is a great direction to go in either, they changed that in TSO but left the SK's increased damage. The solution here I'd like to see is a rethink of what makes each Warrior class special and a rebalancing, I would suggest that if Guardians are not the class with more mitigation then others (pre-TSO design) then perhaps they should be the class that is good at protecting/shielding their party?

Wasuna

06-02-2010, 03:18 PM

Critical mods.. etc.. all that makes no difference. It's all about the Parse at the end of the day. That has all of the factors rolled up into one. That means no matter what you think, in The Shadowknight Oddsey and in The Shadowknight Frontiers, SK's have equal survivability (I think more in heroic but oh well), Massivly higher DPS, just as much if not more utility and unbelieveable agro.Shadowknights are more powerful than Guardians. I'll let the bezerkers say what they will about their class comparision.In short, so nobody thinks I'm trying to sell a swamp in Arizonia, SK's tank just as well as Guardians, do MUCH more DPS and have agro that is crazy high compared to anybody but maybe a Paladin. Buff Guardians or smack SK's, I don't care which but I want balance.

Aull

06-02-2010, 04:19 PM

<cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Every tank should spank and be spanked by the other tanks at SOMETHING. There should be a definitive reason why you want x tank class and that reason should not include being the OP flavor of the expansion.Paladins use to be the kings of agro and they paid for it with their survivability/damage preventions or namely, the complete lack of them. Guardians use to be the kings of tanking single target tough mobs except for the heavy mem-wipers. Not all the tanks had something that they were the best at though.There will always be people that want their tank to be the FotM tank class and to have massively overpowered "I win buttons" but when I play my paladin, I simply want to have the tools at my disposal that I can do one job better than every other fighter class, and there be a cost that I suffer for it. Being invincible is awesome, but it gets really old really fast.I want challenge mixed with having to pay attention so I don't get my self swatted back to the revive point but not overly difficult that I'm popping a bot every boss and having to wear some raid gear or the best of all the other current level heroic zones to have a prayer of killing a heroic dungeon's boss. (PoF pre-epic-nerf or third Guk for example)</blockquote>I agree. Having all six fighters on the same wave length sounds rediculous to me. In doing so it destroys the whole definitive reason why you would decide to roll a monk over a guardian or whatever else. What is so special about a monk if a guardian is able to do exactly what the monk can do and vise versa. You get my point.Each fighter or sub-class should have something that makes them stand out when compairing to other fighters. That is what or how they should be known as.

Bruener

06-02-2010, 07:28 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Critical mods.. etc.. all that makes no difference. It's all about the Parse at the end of the day. That has all of the factors rolled up into one. That means no matter what you think, in The Shadowknight Oddsey and in The Shadowknight Frontiers, SK's have equal survivability (I think more in heroic but oh well), Massivly higher DPS, just as much if not more utility and unbelieveable agro.Shadowknights are more powerful than Guardians. I'll let the bezerkers say what they will about their class comparision.In short, so nobody thinks I'm trying to sell a swamp in Arizonia, SK's tank just as well as Guardians, do MUCH more DPS and have agro that is crazy high compared to anybody but maybe a Paladin. Buff Guardians or smack SK's, I don't care which but I want balance.</blockquote>Well since Paladins and Bezerkers are the same beast wouldn't it make sense to buff up the only other plate tank that is somewhat behind. Specifically buffing up agro generation?And just because you say it, it doesn't make it so. SK has the least survivability out of the plate tanks. SKs have less mitigation and avoid and unlike the other 3 do not have damage reduction on their mythical ability.

Soul_Dreamer

06-02-2010, 09:17 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Critical mods.. etc.. all that makes no difference. It's all about the Parse at the end of the day. That has all of the factors rolled up into one. That means no matter what you think, in The Shadowknight Oddsey and in The Shadowknight Frontiers, SK's have equal survivability (I think more in heroic but oh well), Massivly higher DPS, just as much if not more utility and unbelieveable agro.Shadowknights are more powerful than Guardians. I'll let the bezerkers say what they will about their class comparision.In short, so nobody thinks I'm trying to sell a swamp in Arizonia, SK's tank just as well as Guardians, do MUCH more DPS and have agro that is crazy high compared to anybody but maybe a Paladin. Buff Guardians or smack SK's, I don't care which but I want balance.</blockquote>Well since Paladins and Bezerkers are the same beast wouldn't it make sense to buff up the only other plate tank that is somewhat behind. Specifically buffing up agro generation?And just because you say it, it doesn't make it so. SK has the least survivability out of the plate tanks. SKs have less mitigation and avoid and unlike the other 3 do not have damage reduction on their mythical ability.</blockquote>Sk's have move useable survivability because as soon as a Guardian steps into some defensive gear and a sword/board they loose loads of agro. To keep agro the Guardian needs to be a lot more offensive, an SK does not. On paper, yes a Guardian can get more survivability but it's not useable because if the mobs not beating on us it doesn't mean JACK!Clicky on SK myth absorbs damage for a duration if the hits are a certain %, Guardian "Damage Reduction" is a proc for 5% reduction on 2.4 times a min with 12 sec Duration. Guardians need more hate, end of, we're so far behind other tanks in hate generation it's stupid.

BChizzle

06-02-2010, 10:50 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well since Paladins and Bezerkers are the same beast wouldn't it make sense to buff up the only other plate tank that is somewhat behind. Specifically buffing up agro generation?And just because you say it, it doesn't make it so. SK has the least survivability out of the plate tanks. SKs have less mitigation and avoid and unlike the other 3 do not have damage reduction on their mythical ability.</blockquote>There is no better survivability spell in this game then 3 proccing bloodletter, in fact it alone beats every other tanks survivability hands down. On top of that you heal every time you do damage and take damage plus you have your mythical spell and a huge spell reflect. For anyone that knows anything about the damage absorbing part of tanking in this game it is all about managing the spike damage and being able to die 4 times before an actual death is the absolute best thing going for managing spikes.

Phelon_Skellhound

06-04-2010, 11:43 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well since Paladins and Bezerkers are the same beast wouldn't it make sense to buff up the only other plate tank that is somewhat behind. Specifically buffing up agro generation?And just because you say it, it doesn't make it so. SK has the least survivability out of the plate tanks. SKs have less mitigation and avoid and unlike the other 3 do not have damage reduction on their mythical ability.</blockquote>There is no better survivability spell in this game then 3 proccing bloodletter (wait... how many?), in fact it alone beats every other tanks survivability hands down (I agree). On top of that you heal every time you do damage (indeed.. It is our selling point and part of lore) and take damage (15 sec recast Unholy Blessing depending on raid/group buffs and spec) plus you have your mythical spell (spells actually.. granted) and a huge spell reflect (that depends on spec that not everyone takes). For anyone that knows anything about the damage absorbing part of tanking in this game it is all about managing the spike damage (very much so and crusaders are usually at their weakest at spike damage with out help from good healers) and being able to die 4 times (wait I thought it was 3?) before an actual death is the absolute best thing going for managing spikes.</blockquote>Bloodletter is perhaps the best "death prevent" when compared to other tanks, I agree here. But lets get our facts straight before we start crying foul. First off Bloodletter:<ul><li>When target dies this spell will cast Bloodletter on target. </li><li>Heals caster for 100.0% of max health </li><li>Grants a total of 1 trigger of the spell. </li><li>This effect cannot be cast during combat </li></ul>When coupled with Focus: Bloodletter (red adornment) ie. People who raid only can get this.. It was originally a 6 piece armor set reward in RoK.. So the ability actually has been around awhile and more so when VP was farmed easily in TSO.<ul><li style="margin-bottom: 12px;">When Equipped: </li><li style="margin-bottom: 12px;">Adds an additional trigger to Bloodletter. </li><li style="margin-bottom: 12px;">This focus effect will not stack with itself if adorned on multiple items. </li></ul>So we can only die 2 times provided we have the focus adornment.. not 3 or 4... There is also a catch... When it triggers it damages the group.. If the healers are not vigilant and allow triggers 2 times back to back... you can do some serious damage (depending on spec, once again not everyone will consider this AA option). So it is not without a penalty as you might lead others to think...When we take damage to proc a heal... thats if we use that spell that has a long cast and recovery time.... It is not a permenant buff it lasts for 24 seconds or 5 triggers... You will see we dont often have that up.. what you are seeing are most likely healer wards/reactives... perhaps also dependant of gear procs... In instances they can make a difference ,but it doesnt do a whole lot in raid...

BChizzle

06-05-2010, 12:01 AM

<cite>Khatiru@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well since Paladins and Bezerkers are the same beast wouldn't it make sense to buff up the only other plate tank that is somewhat behind. Specifically buffing up agro generation?And just because you say it, it doesn't make it so. SK has the least survivability out of the plate tanks. SKs have less mitigation and avoid and unlike the other 3 do not have damage reduction on their mythical ability.</blockquote>There is no better survivability spell in this game then 3 proccing bloodletter (wait... how many?), in fact it alone beats every other tanks survivability hands down (I agree). On top of that you heal every time you do damage (indeed.. It is our selling point and part of lore) and take damage (15 sec recast Unholy Blessing depending on raid/group buffs and spec) plus you have your mythical spell (spells actually.. granted) and a huge spell reflect (that depends on spec that not everyone takes). For anyone that knows anything about the damage absorbing part of tanking in this game it is all about managing the spike damage (very much so and crusaders are usually at their weakest at spike damage with out help from good healers) and being able to die 4 times (wait I thought it was 3?) before an actual death is the absolute best thing going for managing spikes.</blockquote>Bloodletter is perhaps the best "death prevent" when compared to other tanks, I agree here. But lets get our facts straight before we start crying foul. First off Bloodletter:<ul><li>When target dies this spell will cast Bloodletter on target. </li><li>Heals caster for 100.0% of max health </li><li>Grants a total of 1 trigger of the spell. </li><li>This effect cannot be cast during combat </li></ul>When coupled with Focus: Bloodletter (red adornment) ie. People who raid only can get this.. It was originally a 6 piece armor set reward in RoK.. So the ability actually has been around awhile and more so when VP was farmed easily in TSO.<ul><li style="margin-bottom: 12px;">When Equipped: </li><li style="margin-bottom: 12px;">Adds an additional trigger to Bloodletter. </li><li style="margin-bottom: 12px;">This focus effect will not stack with itself if adorned on multiple items. </li></ul>So we can only die 2 times provided we have the focus adornment.. not 3 or 4... There is also a catch... When it triggers it damages the group.. If the healers are not vigilant and allow triggers 2 times back to back... you can do some serious damage (depending on spec, once again not everyone will consider this AA option). So it is not without a penalty as you might lead others to think...When we take damage to proc a heal... thats if we use that spell that has a long cast and recovery time.... It is not a permenant buff it lasts for 24 seconds or 5 triggers... You will see we dont often have that up.. what you are seeing are most likely healer wards/reactives... perhaps also dependant of gear procs... In instances they can make a difference ,but it doesnt do a whole lot in raid... </blockquote>Clearly you don't know your class well enough to realize you can get 3 procs of bloodletter. 3 = you can die 4 times. SK's try to constantly downplay how OP they are but nobody is buying it. You have hands down the best survivability, the best dps, best ultility and are up there with palys on threat.

Landiin

06-05-2010, 01:56 AM

I find it funny how some SK's use the excuse of we have to be in a group for BL to work and it hurts the group members. Who cares if it hurts them, You don't die and keep tanking. I have also never seen a healer have a issue with healing though a BL proc not EVER!

Nulgara

06-05-2010, 02:26 AM

and in all actuality its your fifth death that kills you cause any healer worth their salt will DP you when you get low. and aa'd properly your group and healers wont even notice that BL went off.and yeah your reactive tap/heal has a long cast time. with all the regens and such your healers are putting on you sure in a raid it doesnt parse as high as when your in a group or solo but it still parses if you bother to use it.but seriosuly in what game are you playing that a crusader is weakest on spike dmg specifically an sk. what exactly do you think conviction, bloodletter and blood siphon are for exactly? those 3 combined are MASSIVE spike dmg handling skills.

Bruener

06-05-2010, 05:10 PM

<cite>Nulgara@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>and in all actuality its your fifth death that kills you cause any healer worth their salt will DP you when you get low. and aa'd properly your group and healers wont even notice that BL went off.and yeah your reactive tap/heal has a long cast time. with all the regens and such your healers are putting on you sure in a raid it doesnt parse as high as when your in a group or solo but it still parses if you bother to use it.but seriosuly in what game are you playing that a crusader is weakest on spike dmg specifically an sk. what exactly do you think conviction, bloodletter and blood siphon are for exactly? those 3 combined are MASSIVE spike dmg handling skills.</blockquote>My lifetaps do nothing in a raid setting, so please completely throw those out as useful unless solo'ing or grouping in a heroic zone with a very crappy healer.As for spike damage the reason SKs have to have BL is because they have the lowest HP and take more damage. The down-side of BL is that it cannot be cast while in combat and when it is gone it is gone....yeah thats right think about those long 20 min encounters. Also it does drain the group so odds are when it is going of is when things like big AEs come in at the same time you are taking good size hits.....very easy to kill some of your surviving utility group members (bard/coerc/healers). Also in an oh crap moment when your down to just a couple in the group it will not tic off at all. I am not saying it isn't a great ability, but it definitely has its downfalls. As for Blood Siphon it is definitely not that great of an ability and one that as a raiding SK I hardly ever use. It steals my groups health to give me a short ward. 90% of the time it is wasted because I throw it up the same time somebody in my group is using an ability to keep me up. I have actually caused people to die in my group by using it and than an AE hitting. And once again when crap is hitting hte fans meaning people are dying in your group the ward gets smaller and smaller when used. It is a mediocre ability at best. Oh and in case you bring it up yeah I have Furor but UNLIKE Brawlers we are not immune to strike-thru so amazingly a lot of the time when it is hitting the fan and you pop the ability you can still get taken out by the mob.Of course there is a class out there that can pop an ability and take 50% less damage. Oh and they have 2 death saves they can use. Oh, they also have an ability that heals them 4% everytime they are damaged. Not to mention mit temps etc.

Phelon_Skellhound

06-05-2010, 07:21 PM

Healing thru 1 BL proc not so bad, but 2 back to back hurts a lil more and that coupled with incoming ae's will take out a few party members especially when they were already low to start with... We have no control to when it goes off and it's up to the healers to avoid that situation.. As far as healers adding their own DP, well I didnt mention that cuz its an addvantage given to EVERY tank when added to a tanks own version of a "save"Yeah I've accidently killed a party member or two when using Blood Siphen... I use this rarely as well for that reason and only if my group can take a the hit in extreme situationsAlso Furor does not affect incoming spells either.... We still have a chance to die from spells, their detriments and curses

BChizzle

06-05-2010, 08:43 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote> The down-side of BL is that it cannot be cast while in combat and when it is gone it is gone....yeah thats right think about those long 20 min encounters. </blockquote>Quit downplaying the most OP ability in this game. Also, if you die and are rezzed you are out of combat and can cast bloodletter on those 20 minute fights so stop lying.

Nulgara

06-05-2010, 10:24 PM

<cite>Khatiru@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Healing thru 1 BL proc not so bad, but 2 back to back hurts a lil more and that coupled with incoming ae's will take out a few party members especially when they were already low to start with... We have no control to when it goes off and it's up to the healers to avoid that situation.. As far as healers adding their own DP, well I didnt mention that cuz its an addvantage given to EVERY tank when added to a tanks own version of a "save"Yeah I've accidently killed a party member or two when using Blood Siphen... I use this rarely as well for that reason and only if my group can take a the hit in extreme situationsAlso Furor does not affect incoming spells either.... We still have a chance to die from spells, their detriments and curses</blockquote>thats why i also mentioned conviction, which is for incoming spell spike dmg, and not only does it massively reduce incoming spell dmg it turns it right around and reflects it at an insane rate back to the mob.your correct about furor though not being immune to strikethrough its not as effective as tsunami, but it shoudlnt be. tsunami used to a class defining ability, no longer is it, but sk's still maintain being the only one with the potential for 3 triggers on there death save, sure it has costs but liek i said earlier if your healers are worth there salt you arent even gonna notice it. as far as killing your group with blood siphon because of incoming ae's. um its pretty easy to throw a timer on the ae's if one is inc within 5 seconds or so dont use it. ive always figured ild wait till the shaman cast the group ward and time blooo siphon with it so the rest of the gorup still has some defense after the siphon.and lets be honest here other then a fail condition aoe what on earth is gonna hit you that hard and that fast that your getting 2 bl triggers in so short a time that your group isnt healed by the time the second one goes off?

Bruener

06-06-2010, 12:53 AM

<cite>Nulgara@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Khatiru@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Healing thru 1 BL proc not so bad, but 2 back to back hurts a lil more and that coupled with incoming ae's will take out a few party members especially when they were already low to start with... We have no control to when it goes off and it's up to the healers to avoid that situation.. As far as healers adding their own DP, well I didnt mention that cuz its an addvantage given to EVERY tank when added to a tanks own version of a "save"Yeah I've accidently killed a party member or two when using Blood Siphen... I use this rarely as well for that reason and only if my group can take a the hit in extreme situationsAlso Furor does not affect incoming spells either.... We still have a chance to die from spells, their detriments and curses</blockquote>thats why i also mentioned conviction, which is for incoming spell spike dmg, and not only does it massively reduce incoming spell dmg it turns it right around and reflects it at an insane rate back to the mob.your correct about furor though not being immune to strikethrough its not as effective as tsunami, but it shoudlnt be. tsunami used to a class defining ability, no longer is it, but sk's still maintain being the only one with the potential for 3 triggers on there death save, sure it has costs but liek i said earlier if your healers are worth there salt you arent even gonna notice it. as far as killing your group with blood siphon because of incoming ae's. um its pretty easy to throw a timer on the ae's if one is inc within 5 seconds or so dont use it. ive always figured ild wait till the shaman cast the group ward and time blooo siphon with it so the rest of the gorup still has some defense after the siphon.and lets be honest here other then a fail condition aoe what on earth is gonna hit you that hard and that fast that your getting 2 bl triggers in so short a time that your group isnt healed by the time the second one goes off?</blockquote>The problem with Blood Siphon that you are not recognizing is that for an emergency situation the ability is junk because it can be when AEs are incoming, or can be when your group is low health, or when some in the group are dead etc.Believe me I am not going to say BL isn't an awesome ability. But other classes have just as great of abilities for what they are designed for.

Prestissimo

06-06-2010, 06:57 AM

Yes, Bloodletter does have downsides, but it's down sides are far less frequently felt than those the other classes have.If other classes have such "great abilities for what they are designed for" you wouldn't mind trading your bloodletter for the Unyielding Will. I'm sure you'd much perfer a 40% heal instead of 100% heal since it doesn't siphon off the raid members, and you'll have to get use to that whole dying after 36 seconds, but hey, at least it's not siphoning off the other members.Imo, if you're worried about an aoe plus blood siphon killing raid members, there are things called aoe blockers that alot of us use when we're trying to avoid getting wiped or nearly wiped by aoes. Stopping UW from killing a guard is much more difficult than healing an extra <20% hp of the group in almost any reasonable or foreseeable condition.Also, when saying that sks have the lowest hp pool, don't forget their unconcious hp from aa. It is aa, but you have to be stupid to not take it.And as far as paladin threat, paladins do not generate that much threat or hate (zerkers spank them in SF). Paladins siphon a lot of hate, and are much better at manipulating hate and have consequently gotten really good at it over the past expansions. The paladin's "beast mode threat" as some like to call it, is highly dependant on how much hate there is being generated by others coupled with the auto attack and less importantly the CA based dps the paladin can muster. A paladin in groups recieves 3% more transfer than other tanks do in properly setup groups. Paladins have dropped a long way purely due to how easy it is for others to obtain the same hate siphons through other means coupled with the change to holy ground.

Xanrn

06-06-2010, 03:12 PM

Yeah BL is soooo crap, tell you what I will swap you my endline AA deathsave with its single trigger 77% heal 45 second duration and 4 minute recast for BL.I also will take your six figure spell reflect since apparantly not all SKs take it... Which I find hillarious, you have such uber AAs you can pass up a SIX FIGURE spell reflect...SKs having the best single target dps/threat, the best aoe dps/threat, the best utility is apparantly balanced by having the second best survivability... Yeah ok.

Bruener

06-06-2010, 03:52 PM

<cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, Bloodletter does have downsides, but it's down sides are far less frequently felt than those the other classes have.If other classes have such "great abilities for what they are designed for" you wouldn't mind trading your bloodletter for the Unyielding Will. I'm sure you'd much perfer a 40% heal instead of 100% heal since it doesn't siphon off the raid members, and you'll have to get use to that whole dying after 36 seconds, but hey, at least it's not siphoning off the other members.Imo, if you're worried about an aoe plus blood siphon killing raid members, there are things called aoe blockers that alot of us use when we're trying to avoid getting wiped or nearly wiped by aoes. Stopping UW from killing a guard is much more difficult than healing an extra <20% hp of the group in almost any reasonable or foreseeable condition.Also, when saying that sks have the lowest hp pool, don't forget their unconcious hp from aa. It is aa, but you have to be stupid to not take it.And as far as paladin threat, paladins do not generate that much threat or hate (zerkers spank them in SF). Paladins siphon a lot of hate, and are much better at manipulating hate and have consequently gotten really good at it over the past expansions. The paladin's "beast mode threat" as some like to call it, is highly dependant on how much hate there is being generated by others coupled with the auto attack and less importantly the CA based dps the paladin can muster. A paladin in groups recieves 3% more transfer than other tanks do in properly setup groups. Paladins have dropped a long way purely due to how easy it is for others to obtain the same hate siphons through other means coupled with the change to holy ground.</blockquote>Do you really want to try and down-play Paladins right now? Because as Paladins have commented elsewhere it is the single best xpac to be a Paladin. Equal DPS to SKs means equal hate, than throw Amends on top and they have more hate than any other tank. HD is an awesome raid-wide utility spell. Oh and as a Paladin you take 10% less damage and heal a crap ton more. Save the woes of a Paladin because it is a bunch of crap right now.When referring to abilities that other classes have I definitely did not mean comparing death saves. We all know BL is the best Death Save, but there are a lot of other abilities other tanks have to prevent spike damage. You have great abilties like Adrenaline, being immune to strike-thru, Last Man Standing, etc that are fantastic. And the biggest thing you really have to look at is the amount of abilities and how fast they can be used again. How many hits can a Guard block? How often can a Bezerker Adrenaline. How about how extremely fast the Paladin parry ability is.LOL at a Paladin trying to act like they are behind in any way at all.

Bruener

06-06-2010, 03:53 PM

<cite>Ummudien@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah BL is soooo crap, tell you what I will swap you my endline AA deathsave with its single trigger 77% heal 45 second duration and 4 minute recast for BL.I also will take your six figure spell reflect since apparantly not all SKs take it... Which I find hillarious, you have such uber AAs you can pass up a SIX FIGURE spell reflect...SKs Paladins having the best single target dps/threat, the best aoe dps/threat, the best utility is apparantly balanced by having the second best survivability... Yeah ok.</blockquote>There ya go fixed it for you.

Landiin

06-06-2010, 05:04 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>LOL at a Paladin trying to act like they are behind in any way at all.</blockquote>Just like you acting like SK are not OP at all. Pot meet kettle!

Prestissimo

06-22-2010, 06:50 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do you really want to try and down-play Paladins right now? Because as Paladins have commented elsewhere it is the single best xpac to be a Paladin. Equal DPS to SKs means equal hate, than throw Amends on top and they have more hate than any other tank. HD is an awesome raid-wide utility spell. Oh and as a Paladin you take 10% less damage and heal a crap ton more. Save the woes of a Paladin because it is a bunch of crap right now.... How about how extremely fast the Paladin parry ability is.LOL at a Paladin trying to act like they are behind in any way at all.</blockquote>I apologize for the inc wall of text so just skip to the section under the hash marks. I unfortunately have to explain it for bruener otherwise he'll just say it's all made up or ill-based, illogical, unreasonable, or w/e insult or defamatory thing he chooses to say today to anyone that thinks something other than what he does.Bruener, you know perfectly well that amends in almost all group conditions means very little anymore the moment you throw almost any dps class and utility into the setup and any time you neglect that fact or try to insinuate otherwise is little else other than an attempt at misinforming or stiring the pot. The ONLY group setup that amends is useful to it's fullest is in a group with an illy, brigand, summoners, other fighters besides monks with the transfer spec, and healers. Thats a very dps and utility lacking group and namely the same utility a paladin needs to have equal dps (and thus hate generation) as an sk. All other scenarios, you're getting multiple transfers which add up to over 50% and knocks amend's transfer down from what you love to refer to as the deal maker that gives us "more hate than anyone". Potential and real life scenarios are VERY different, and you know that, so kindly start respecting that and not continually repeating false/selective and extremely conditional statements.Stonewall in TSO was a pure insult at ABSOLUTE best. We deserve to have that be awesome for a little while. After we've gotten some time getting to enjoy having an awesome short duration block end-line ability then I will be right there saying that it needs to be brought back into line (which tbh could be completely summed up by adding 1 minute to the reuse since block is uncontested and parry is contested) just like furor should lose either the bonus spell damage or the immunity to interrupt so that it's not AS pure win mode, or if furor is going to stay the same, leave stonewall alone and buff the other damage preventions other classes get. You should understand the position of feeling entitled to your abilities not completely sucking a fat wad since you're a shadowknight from way early on. You got your cookie in TSO after years of glaringly obvious and critically crippling problems getting ignored but now your trying so desperately to prevent getting your easy mode I win buttons taken away and being brought back into even balance. It is true that the sk is a lot closer to even now, and it's only a very small number of things that truly are not even anymore, but it's still in your favor by a bit.HD is a 10 second duration and is about the only thing we have that buffs group/raid damage output. I see that raid wide buff for sks that increases spell damage which isn't too bad, I see the siphon essence which isn't anything to write home about but is still more than nothing, I see death march adding quite a bit of extra power to your group not to mention an effective aoe prevent. These most definitely don't add up to amount that HD boosts, but HD's benefit is much shorter and those things I mentioned are either on very short recast, always up, or on the same recast such as DM and has an added bonus of the immunities that paladin's don't offer.We have to cast our heals and they get interrupted a TON not to mention our nuke heal costs almost 500 power versus death touch's tap that costs you 0 and is on the same recast timer. Want to trade? I would in a heart beat.Our mythical reduced physical damage by 10% because we took more damage during that era, and heals 10% of damage that we take short of a killing blow. Remember the phrase "paladins are paper tanks"? Sk's didn't have it any better, but you were right there in the same boat and know exactly what I'm talking about. BTW, our mythical clickie is completely 100% worthless as even many solo mobs can work it over or at least match it, so that leaves us the mythical's damage reduction, and the proc which isn't something to write home about, so yeah, I expect that damage reduction to be worth something as the rest of the mythical really isn't.------------------------------------------------------------------------End result: yes, the paladins do have it good this expansion and I don't see where I was "down play paladins"; just correct a previous statement that exaggerated their current state. I was pointing out that the paladins aren't enjoying "easy mode amends afk tanking" as you love to call it anymore than other tanks because the difference amends counts for is often times only a single digit percentage. Paladins don't have any issue with hate, but they're not the end all best either like you love to claim they are.They're no more OP than shadow knights are and we still have many situations where our "strengths" don't amount to much and we end up being an average plate tank (such as when HD is on cool down and when we have utility/dps classes in group that add up to about the same % transfer as amends gives), but thanks to the changes we saw in SF, we don't have a problem mitigating scenarios where amends gets averaged way down and there is more than one class fighting for the top parse spot. I again don't see where I claimed anything other than the objective and factual based truth that amends is situational and that paladin threat is not as big as people love to claim it is. If anything people should be attacking zerker's aoe hate equally as much as the residual hating of amends because zerkers at minimum are on par with us and any zerker that knows how to play well can inflate that.Paladins asked to be brought back into even levels due to amends so frequently being averaged into very low shadows of it's potential and for stonewall to not suck hard core, and that is what we got. That doesn't change that fact that it is insulting when people say we have 100% easy mode in every scenario or are more OP because thats just plain not true.<cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote>When you get a wall of text like that, generally somebody's trying to sell you a swamp in Arizona.</blockquote>Not that I don't disagree with the post this statement is refering to, but either it is a pack of bs, or you get flamed for not posting your reasoning behind statements because if you don't post every thought behind your statement no matter how long it is its obviously not backed by any intelligent thought process. So, instead of making 8 small posts and getting flamed for repeatedly posting, you make one big one to get flamed at for that. That phrase in itself is ironic in that it often times proves itself but also will discredit those that give proper thought to the entirety and wish to save space by not going into detail. Lose if you do, lose if you don't I guess.Iirc on another thought, Martin Luther Jr's I Have A Dream speech and The Declaration of Independance are both impressive walls of text in their own rights... does that mean those are attempts to "sell folks a swamp in Arizona" just because it's long? Or is it possible that content determines the quality and legnth should not be the judgement factor?