Toughness is not the best way of doing it... [Archive]

View Full Version : Toughness is not the best way of doing it...

Valind

02-01-2010, 12:39 PM

Firstly, let me start this post by stating the following: My main is a templar.Now with that out of the way, onwards...Toughness at cap will grant everyone a 40% damage reduciton. At crit modifiers of less than 1.67, you're looking at taking less damage than you would have with crit mit. Once that 1.67 number is bypassed however, you'll infact be taking MORE damage with toughness than you were with critmit at 90%. With the massive increases to damage in SF (shadowknights pulling 30k on single targets) and the fact that we already have some abilities above that 1.67 crit mod threshold, we are looking at fights being shorter than even current ones.The other problem that people are constantly complaining about is the fact that heals can't be mitigated. While this is true, I also don't think it was a problem. Classes with equal gear/skill as myself could still kill me in 1v1s... and being a healer, they could always just run away if it went south.So what's the solution to this problem? Well here's my solution. Reduce all abilities/CAs/Spells/Heals/clickies/everything in PvP by 40%. There's your toughness reduction, allowing fights to last longer, debuffs to have more of an effect on the outcome, and heals scale downwards as well. Next, leave your toughness mod on the armor. Leave it exactly as it is.This has the double bonus of making fights last longer without making healers OP. As the expansion progresses, people gear up, DPS classes get more DPS mods, offsetting the reduced damage they are able to inflict on targets due to toughness.

Wytie

02-01-2010, 01:31 PM

<cite>Valindor wrote:</cite><blockquote> With the massive increases to damage in SF (shadowknights pulling 30k on single targets)</blockquote>LOLOLOLOL

Valind

02-01-2010, 02:49 PM

I know you're in beta Paill (ha! I'm allowed to say that!) and I do find it interesting that you completely ignore the topic of conversation to pick on that one tid bit. Strange how people completely ignore things that they dont like.Have any comments on the topic you'd care to share, or are you just here to LOLOLOLOL?

Silverzx

02-02-2010, 09:47 AM

SK does 30k dmg in pvp in one ability? how much does wizards fusion do?

Jab

02-02-2010, 12:05 PM

/sigh not again..More dmg.Guess we are back to oneshotting..Im not in beta so prove me wrong kids..

Grayspirit

02-03-2010, 12:19 AM

Heals are already nerfed just like damage by being engaged in pvp combat.The current pace of battle is fine. As it is a strong 6man fighting another strong 6man can last 45+min when including rezzing.I've been in x4+ vs x4+ fights that have lasted just the same amount of time.Even though most everyone's dps is going up in the expansion, the healers are obviously going to get equal love with things to help benefit their groups. Toughness will only turn everything into a stalemate merely by making everyone unkillable.

Azol

02-04-2010, 10:22 AM

Good times. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And I was proud of being a wizard meant you go down in a couple of seconds or kill someone in a couple of seconds. I am not that patient to mash buttons for 40+ minutes... ugh.

Kurindor_Mythecnea

02-04-2010, 05:25 PM

<cite>Silverzx wrote:</cite><blockquote>SK does 30k dmg in pvp in one ability? how much does wizards fusion do?</blockquote>They don't. The only ultra OP class with capacities relative to such an extreme are Conjurors. And maybe Assassins in a sense. Although, I haven't checked out Rogues, Rangers, Sorcerors, or Enchanters...or Necromancers. But Conjurors, I know, for sure...Shadowknights, definitely not.Anyways, the way of doing things is quoted below...<cite>Seliri@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>The perfect solution to remove the needless inclusion of toughness, and to keep critical mitigation both functional in PvE and PvP, is below, as PvP-only set bonuses, applied to regular, class-specific sets and their set bonuses...<cite>Seliri@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Priests would have: 75% reductions to cast & reuse on resurrections (3 set bonus)bonuses that add +20% critical mitigation to their concentration slot buffs (even for wardens, 6 set bonus)removal of concentration slot requirements for certain buffs (not being groupwide, but castable on each individual, 5 set bonus)groupwide reduction of reuse timers for scouts/mages/fighters (NOT PRIESTS, their longevity is OP already, 7 set bonus)Mages would have:Removal of taunt resistability (5 set bonus)+10% in-combat movement speed (groupwide, 3 set bonus)Mod to the mage's next DoT/debuff that makes it a curse (requiring a priest to use "cure curse") that mitigates crit mit by 80% (30 sec duration, 1 min reuse, 7 set bonus)Roots/snares are uncurable for at least 4 seconds (groupwide), 5 set bonusScouts would have:+10% chance to strike through avoidance checks/resists (groupwide, 5 set bonus)+10% in-combat movement speed (groupwide, 3 set bonus)Ability to instantly restore stuns/stifles/daze/interrupt spells to 1 character (non-scout, 7 set bonus)Debuffs become uncurable for at least 8 seconds (area encounter, 6 set bonus)Fighters would have:Toss, where encounter taunts throw enemies up in the air and single target taunts knock back (1.8/min, 15 sec proc, 6 set bonus)Focus: Intervene, where triggers are increased by 5 and the recipient becomes immune to taunts until all triggers dissipate (5 set bonus)Disarm: Rescue, mod to the emergency "rescue" taunt, where enemy primary slots are forcefully unequipped (7 set bonus)Dilapidate: all enemy procs trigger 75% less, as a curse (3 set bonus)</blockquote></blockquote>

Vortexelemental

02-04-2010, 05:53 PM

<cite>Seliri@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Silverzx wrote:</cite><blockquote>SK does 30k dmg in pvp in one ability? how much does wizards fusion do?</blockquote>They don't. The only ultra OP class with capacities relative to such an extreme are Conjurors. And maybe Assassins in a sense. Although, I haven't checked out Rogues, Rangers, Sorcerors, or Enchanters...or Necromancers. But Conjurors, I know, for sure...</blockquote>Conjurors? Really? How is a conj overpowered?

Grayspirit

02-05-2010, 12:00 AM

Trust me when I say that means you're only good for something only once every 3min because there was no noticable damage you were doing even with 15+ people on us. ;(Good times.

dispraekailo

02-06-2010, 02:32 AM

I haven't been playing eqii since the beginning, so I don't have the experience that many of you do with the original pvp system, but I must say this: I have agreed with nearly every change SOE has made since I started playing with EoF. Removing fame loss from pvp was somewhat disheartening once implemented, but it didn't destroy the immediate enjoyment of a well-balanced fight.The macro limiting issue was the first to pull my strings, and nearly caused my first complaint here in the forums. But others stood up en masse and it was solved quickly. Sony listened.The proposed pvp system involving both 'toughness' and the inclusion of battlegrounds does nothing but improve gameplay and options for those that play on PVE servers, hands down. They're at a win-win, if pvp sucks they can go straight back to the PVE they're accustomed to until it's fixed. This is a great decision on Sony's part; they should always aim for potentially making more customers happy and give them more options.The problem is that toughness can in fact hurt the current state of affairs on PVP servers. And if it's bad at launch, we have to deal with it until it's fixed. By all means Sony, give the PVE players some better PVP options, but don't take unnecessary risks and destroy what's left of your PVP servers. This is the chance to balance classes, gear, and procs that help make some classes overpowered at endgame. The openworld pvp is almost perfect, just fix the [Removed for Content] lag and stick with what works.I completely disagree with the inclusion of any equipment that works only in PVP/PVE, 2k token TSO jewlery included. Sony, please don't make us work for nearly identical equipment for both PVP and PVE, one with toughness and the other with crit mit... We enjoy pvping in raid gear, and raiding with pvp gear. It gives us more options for progression. And yes, isn't it obvious what would happen if open world questers were attacked by those in pvp gear with 'toughness'? Players shouldn't be rewarded with an extra 40% damage reduction just because they pre-emptively had the motive to gank other players rather than quest. I would rather see no immediate way to claim rewards with pvp tokens as battlegrounds is being tested, than to have the overworld in PVP servers flooded with ganking gear.Despite many other WoW-esque simplifications that are being applied to eqii with SF (lol str/agi/sta/int/wis stat consolidation, resists, and the god-awful ability modifier), I'm going to buy the expansion and race to 90 and end-game content with everyone else. But when I've seen all the new content, all that remains to keep me around is the pvp. If it sucks as many of us suspect it will (should the toughness attribute be implemented), I'm afraid the population of PVP servers will drop significantly.Or maybe that's what Sony wants... It's certainly easier to fix contained battlegrounds pvp than x8 vs x8 in kp...I agree wholeheartedly with simply lowering the damage/debuff/duration of spells and abilities in PVP. That's far easier to balance and tweak than creating a whole new system that only adds an extra dynamic to an already complicated problem.

SkarF@c3

02-06-2010, 11:46 AM

<cite>dispraekailo wrote:</cite><blockquote>I haven't been playing eqii since the beginning, so I don't have the experience that many of you do with the original pvp system, but I must say this: I have agreed with nearly every change SOE has made since I started playing with EoF. Removing fame loss from pvp was somewhat disheartening once implemented, but it didn't destroy the immediate enjoyment of a well-balanced fight.The macro limiting issue was the first to pull my strings, and nearly caused my first complaint here in the forums. But others stood up en masse and it was solved quickly. Sony listened.The proposed pvp system involving both 'toughness' and the inclusion of battlegrounds does nothing but improve gameplay and options for those that play on PVE servers, hands down. They're at a win-win, if pvp sucks they can go straight back to the PVE they're accustomed to until it's fixed. This is a great decision on Sony's part; they should always aim for potentially making more customers happy and give them more options.The problem is that toughness can in fact hurt the current state of affairs on PVP servers. And if it's bad at launch, we have to deal with it until it's fixed. By all means Sony, give the PVE players some better PVP options, but don't take unnecessary risks and destroy what's left of your PVP servers. This is the chance to balance classes, gear, and procs that help make some classes overpowered at endgame. The openworld pvp is almost perfect, just fix the [Removed for Content] lag and stick with what works.I completely disagree with the inclusion of any equipment that works only in PVP/PVE, 2k token TSO jewlery included. Sony, please don't make us work for nearly identical equipment for both PVP and PVE, one with toughness and the other with crit mit... We enjoy pvping in raid gear, and raiding with pvp gear. It gives us more options for progression. And yes, isn't it obvious what would happen if open world questers were attacked by those in pvp gear with 'toughness'? Players shouldn't be rewarded with an extra 40% damage reduction just because they pre-emptively had the motive to gank other players rather than quest. I would rather see no immediate way to claim rewards with pvp tokens as battlegrounds is being tested, than to have the overworld in PVP servers flooded with ganking gear.Despite many other WoW-esque simplifications that are being applied to eqii with SF (lol str/agi/sta/int/wis stat consolidation, resists, and the god-awful ability modifier), I'm going to buy the expansion and race to 90 and end-game content with everyone else. But when I've seen all the new content, all that remains to keep me around is the pvp. If it sucks as many of us suspect it will (should the toughness attribute be implemented), I'm afraid the population of PVP servers will drop significantly.Or maybe that's what Sony wants... It's certainly easier to fix contained battlegrounds pvp than x8 vs x8 in kp...I agree wholeheartedly with simply lowering the damage/debuff/duration of spells and abilities in PVP. That's far easier to balance and tweak than creating a whole new system that only adds an extra dynamic to an already complicated problem.</blockquote>Let me just say this... some of your opinions are spot on... and some of them arent.Openworld pvp is a JOKE at the moment. If you think that farmfest of zergness between tg and kp docks is pvp I highly suggest you look around at some other successfull pvp games.On the other hand I completely agree with your statement about over complicating an already complicated system by adding a new dynamic.To make pvp successful it needs to be goal oriented. Sure we would all like to say we pvp for the fun of it, but how long does the fun last when you have been pushing peoples faces in for 4 years?Give us a real reason to pvp.. not just for gear. It becomes a grindfest at that point.Make us fight over territory.. npcs... contested mobs that have something REQUIRED to progress that drops. Give us a REASON to get out there and try like hell.... not just for the hell of it.My 2cpOfnewbie/Newbasaurus/etc

Neskonlith

02-06-2010, 01:34 PM

<cite>SkarF@c3 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Openworld pvp is a JOKE at the moment. If you think that farmfest of zergness between tg and kp docks is pvp I highly suggest you look around at some other successfull pvp games.</blockquote>Yet the EQ2 "zerg" is such a tiny thing, barely a few dozen to be experiencing all that lag - for perspective, <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9REDXTdOK8" target="_blank">check out the zerg in EVE!</a> Wish we could have epic battles without locking up the server.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />

dispraekailo

02-06-2010, 06:48 PM

<cite>SkarF@c3 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Openworld pvp is a JOKE at the moment. If you think that farmfest of zergness between tg and kp docks is pvp I highly suggest you look around at some other successfull pvp games.On the other hand I completely agree with your statement about over complicating an already complicated system by adding a new dynamic.To make pvp successful it needs to be goal oriented. Sure we would all like to say we pvp for the fun of it, but how long does the fun last when you have been pushing peoples faces in for 4 years?Give us a real reason to pvp.. not just for gear. It becomes a grindfest at that point.Make us fight over territory.. npcs... contested mobs that have something REQUIRED to progress that drops.Give us a REASON to get out there and try like hell.... not just for the hell of it.My 2cpOfnewbie/Newbasaurus/etc</blockquote>By all means, there is bad pvp brought about by the zerg fest. But that does't mean the underlying system is bad. With the mechanics as they are now, those rare 6v6 or 3v3 fights that take place outside of kp can be -very- satisfying, and far more complicated than the childish 3-5 ability fights that I've seen in other games. The mechanics aren't wrong; the motivators to pvp are. I agree completely that pvp needs to be spread out more. I don't think simply returning to the faction system will be the solution at this point. People are already in the habit of grouping up at the entrance to key zones like KP. They won't forget what it was like, and how easy it was to get writs, so they will always fall back to that tactic unless something changes with the way in which they can get updates. What I propose is a writ system that requires the player to either:1) get 5 kills at keypoint A for 3 tokensor2) survive for 5 minutes against any attackers for 1 tokenThe player should have to do this for multiple 'hotzones' (ie cave entrance to a contested named, settlements like jinisk, etc ) before the writ can be turned in, ensuring that they don't fall back to camping just one zone to get all their updates. The option to survive is my solution to the lack of pvp at certain hours; this will ensure that hotzones are almost always contested, but won't bring greater reward to those just camping in an empty zone. Think of the game update that enabled Kurns Tower after TSO was released. Fens was crawling with pvp in every part of the map. This is the kind of overworld PVP I'm aiming for with this system, just spread out a bit more.Eventually everyone gets the loot they want, and becomes fully mastered. Overworld named aren't the solution once everyone finishes the content. But it -does- get players in the habit of hanging out around named if that's where people are when the expansion comes out. If the intiial concentration of players was spread out to a few key points at release, and motivation to remain in those areas was compounded by regional writs of some sort, I think the zerg would eventually become a rare occurance.I also agree with the suggestions to offer more than a full set of useful gear as reward for PVP House and appearance items all the way. (Hell, why not regional appearance items.. Reign dominent over Kerra Island 50 times and you get an exclusive piece of kerra apperance lore, or maybe even a title) Don't increase the time it takes to get full PVP gear; the hardcore players are going to get it regardless. 2k tokens for a single piece only turns away new players and alts from thinking of PVP as a viable solution to gearing out their characters. But don't ignore the PVP vets that have full gear either..

Cloakentuna

02-07-2010, 07:40 PM

Except nobody can provide any real feedback on Toughness, the state of pvp, or battlegrounds because we are now 9 days from the xpac and there has been no PvPing on beta. No battlegrounds, no PvP beta, only duels (lol).Another expansion of terrible pvp inc!

Siphar

02-07-2010, 11:10 PM

Only problem with toughness is that healers get too much of an advantage because they mitigate damage but their heals remain the same...I agree that toughness should be in the game... I just think that priests should not get it on the pvp servers for pvp..

Neskonlith

02-08-2010, 12:17 AM

<cite>Froggleg@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Except nobody can provide any real feedback on Toughness, the state of pvp, or battlegrounds because we are now 9 days from the xpac and there has been no PvPing on beta. No battlegrounds, no PvP beta, only duels (lol).Another expansion of terrible pvp inc!</blockquote>Have any Devs posted on the Beta boards a hint of when the PVP changes can be tested?

Cloakentuna

02-08-2010, 03:15 PM

<cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Froggleg@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Except nobody can provide any real feedback on Toughness, the state of pvp, or battlegrounds because we are now 9 days from the xpac and there has been no PvPing on beta. No battlegrounds, no PvP beta, only duels (lol).Another expansion of terrible pvp inc!</blockquote>Have any Devs posted on the Beta boards a hint of when the PVP changes can be tested?</blockquote>Don't think so. Heard rumor that the BGs would be unlocked today, but they aren't yet so...8 days to go until we all get to beta test pvp changes!