Troub populations

[Kram337]

<p>Why is it that dirges represent 75% of the bard server population on most servers? This isn't a made up statistic, go run the numbers on eq2players.</p><p>I'm wanting to start a troub but I can't help but think there is something wrong with them. Also I read on other troub forums that the troub seems to always get screwed over with expansions. In terms of aa's and spells I've read that the troubs feel they're <span style="text-decoration: underline;">always</span> being left behind the dirge.</p><p>Is this true? I want to play a troub because I enjoy mezzing and charming and the dirge doesn't do either. Troub just seems like the CC version of the bard. Is dirge actually superior or are these just the unhappy, sky-is-falling, naysayers that you find on every forum?</p>

[Brook]

<p>My take on it is because the dirge buffs melee and troubs help out the casters. The game seemed heavily weighted to the melee side of things for quite awhile now so we wound up with more people rolling toons to support that.</p><p>That's just my opinion on why things are the way they are. I have met some really good troubs out there that love the class.</p>

[Tuppen]

<p>What the poster before me said, plus, troubs have no reason to be in the mt group in raids.  Dirges do.  For some reason, a lot of people feel more important if they are in the main tank group, so they roll dirges.</p><p>Troubs are quite fun,  I recommend you try one.  </p>

[Sreneth]

<p><cite>Garith@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What the poster before me said, plus, troubs have no reason to be in the mt group in raids.  Dirges do.  For some reason, a lot of people feel more important if they are in the main tank group, so they roll dirges.</p><p>Troubs are quite fun,  I recommend you try one.  </p></blockquote><p>I completely agree, I think most people get a "kick" out of being in the MT group and they think that makes them more important then most.  Well a well played troub can do great dps on their own, but they also increase a raids over all DPS a bunch!  Once you get your mythical and your Maestro becomes raid wide, your RL will be looking for you every raid, trust me.</p><p>If you are looking to be T1 DPS and get all the glory, then play a dirge or assassin.</p>

[Singsong]

<p>I have to say I love my troub. I have done things within a group that had people saying they didn't know a troub could do that. I don't think of myself as a really great troub, but I am trying to get better at them. The only issue I had was trying to solo through RoK. Once I hit 72 and learned to kit mobs as needed I found the troub to be fun again. My troub will be the first of my characters to hit level 90 as I enjoy playing him so much.</p><p>SingSong WindRunner of ButcherBlock</p>

[Leisu]

<p><cite>Kram337 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Why is it that dirges represent 75% of the bard server population on most servers? This isn't a made up statistic, go run the numbers on eq2players.</p><p>I'm wanting to start a troub but I can't help but think there is something wrong with them. Also I read on other troub forums that the troub seems to always get screwed over with expansions. In terms of aa's and spells I've read that the troubs feel they're <span style="text-decoration: underline;">always</span> being left behind the dirge.</p><p>Is this true? I want to play a troub because I enjoy mezzing and charming and the dirge doesn't do either. Troub just seems like the CC version of the bard. Is dirge actually superior or are these just the unhappy, sky-is-falling, naysayers that you find on every forum?</p></blockquote><p>If mezzing and charming is what you find appealing, i suggest rolling an enchanter.  The troub charm doesn't last long enough to really do anything (10~ish seconds I believe).  The mez is ok but not nearly as useful as you'd think.</p><p>Fact is, dirges are superior but not because of one single thing but because of an accumulation of serveral small things.  They effectively buff 3 of the 4 archetypes with truly useful things over what a troub brings (stoneskin, battle cry, grativas, songster's luck, etc).  We are pretty much singled down to mages and offer the other 3 archtypes next to nothing over a dirge.  That's just the tip of the iceberg though.  You could start into mythical vs. mythical comparison all the way to how the scout/fighter innate crit mit stat is AGI, which they can buff for a group and we can't....etc etc etc.  None of the differences, when examined by themselves, are THAT major.  But, as I said before, it's the accumulation of all these small differences that make the dirge a more effective class overall and for groups in general.</p>

[ninui]

<p>Without breaking the NDA, after the release of the next expansion I have a feeling that disparity in bard numbers will become even more noticeable. I haven't spoken to one Troub in Beta who has a good word to say about how the class performs or is 'enhanced' in the next expansion.</p><p>There are very few situations when a Troub will be preferable to a Dirge, either solo, group or raid. As previousls stated it is a culmination of many small things that add up to make one architype vastly superior to the other compounded by some very lazy design choices in the Troub AA trees.</p>

[dropdahamma]

<p>It has nothing to do with being in the MT group.  Its my experience that troub population is low, because most troubs have re-rolled due to increasingly limited roles, while other classes roles seem to expand.  POTM, JCAP, UT, DA are all useful to melee classes. However, most of a troubs responsibilities now are JCAP rotation, POTM, and dps all you can. </p><p>We are fastly becoming the afkbots that we were in EOF.  The disparity in dps between dirges and troubs is only going to increase.  There is nothing that really makes a troub "pop" anymore.  This is the result of trying to share the wealth with other classes. </p>

[K'shar]

<p>I personally enjoy playing my troub and no matter what the new AA's are or the enchancements are I will still enjoy the troub.  And yes when the raid is forming, Iam on of the first to get the invite!!!  We add so much DPS to casters that we will never go by the wayside.  Personally I dont have issues getting groups either.  I believe most Crusaders would rather have a troub over a dirge for buffs in a group  <might just be personally opinion>.</p><p><span >The disparity in dps between dirges and troubs is only going to increase???</span></p><p>I personally parse at or above the dirges in my raid.  Normal group is Troub, SK, Warden, Ill, Wizard, Necro.....  No IA just melle proc from wiz.  Mixed T3 T4 gear myth...</p>

[ninui]

<p>If you are out parsing your dirges all the time on your raids, your raids need to get some new dirges. Hell a dirge can pull a 5k parse from auto attack alone thanks to their mythical proc.</p><p>That is however besides the point, the point is with the changes to the classes over the last few expansions and the forthcoming aa's troubs are being reduced to a buff bot class and for some of us that is not good enough. Look at out aa's trees compaired to some of the other classes and see just how little thought has gone into them.</p><p>SOF end line abilities - Aria of Health, is just a rehash of the Hearty Constitution from the general line and how many run speed enhancements do we need as aa's. Lazy, lazy, lazy developers.</p><p>Just wait to you see the pile of steaming horse poop that we get yet again for the troub aa's in the new expansion.</p>

[metzger385]

<p>the only time ppl say "i didnt know a troub could do that" is when they are geared well, i.e. T4 and fabled crap.  Anytime a troub parses over 3k its a mirical to most. They are fun to play most of the time but it wasnt that fun for me until i got all that gear and was able to parse a little. but compared to other utilities and dirges, troubs and the lowest on the totem poll.</p><p>FIX US!!!!!!!!!</p>

[Legion11]

<p>I dunno, I'm loving the class right now.  I originally rolled this troub as a favor to my guild, dragging him along on my 2nd account with basically AF on a mage - switching over every 30 seconds or so to JCap someone or cast PoTM. </p><p>After playing him as my main for about 2 months and really investing time/energy/plat into making him better - I have to say he's the most interesting of my toons to raid with - mainly due to versatility and just how incredibly valuable he is to the success of the raid.  When our guild's SK main-tanks a raid, she actually requests I be moved into her group at the expense of a dirge, because I raise her dps to absolutely ungodly levels.</p><p>And to the poster who said 3k parses are seen as a miracle - well I regularly hit in the 4.5-5 range with occasional spikes in the 6k range without a single piece of Tier 4 gear.  I roll with a pretty casual guild that's lost a lot of players (mainly to the expansion delay in November) and we have yet to clear Thet-Em-Au.</p><p>Soooo.... if you're a moderate to good player that doesn't want to delve too deeply into the game, roll the dirge - you'll be happier and always have a place somewhere.  If you really like to dig deep for every advantage and enjoy a good challenge, roll the troubador.  You will amaze and astound those raiding with you if you play the class well.  My three favorite lines ever from guildies are:</p><p><em>"I didn't think troubadors could do that!"</em></p><p><em>"Umm... someone tell him troubs are utility, not dps"</em></p><p><em>"Put that troub in my group, he almost doubles my parse!!"</em></p><p><em></em></p><p>Oh and by the way, dps is just the tip of the iceberg.  I've actually pulled up #2 on a heal parse due to the small ward attached to one of the resist songs.  Even though it's only 350 or so points, you have to multiply that by all 24 players in the raid.  On a fight with a rapid and continual low-damage AE you can sometimes vault over some slacker healers in groups 2,3,4.  There's nothing like it when guildies shake their head when you pull things like that, that they have no idea you are capable of doing.  Oh and how about a perfectly timed Countersong to make an enemy's attack only do 10% of it's normal damage?</p><p>Yeah, this class is a ton of fun - but you have to invest some time in it.</p>

[Cynicisim]

<p>I was a troub. 1-80 and raiding first as a troub. then switched to dirge at my guild request (3 dirges on raid v 1 troub). I came looking for advice as I am betraying and need to click to be a dirge or troub. My thoughts so far is:</p><p>1. I give up my pvp/raid dirge gear ( I lose 5 pieces of armor) - (which means I will look like I just hit 80 again wearing crap)</p><p>2. Yes, more guilds welcome a dirge over a troub.</p><p>but...</p><p>1. Troub ROCKS in pvp and I raid only to get the gear to pvp.</p><p>2. IMO Troubs are better to solo pvp than dirges</p><p>3. A good troub. to the informed group (meaning good group) is just as welcome if not more so in pvp.</p><p>So, do I stay dirge and raid or go troub and replace all my hard earned pvp gear? I have my myths for both dirge and troub and I get a reset to app1 so I am not worred about my masters.</p><p>My thoughts are I enjoyed being a troub but it has been so long since I was one perhaps hindsight is not so accurate and I worked hard to get my gear and spend many hrs. raiding and pvp'ing and I am not sure I will have time to get a full set of pvp gear before the expansion comes out. I have a low lvl troub that I enjoy.</p>

[Leisu]

<p><cite>Legion11 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I dunno, I'm loving the class right now.  I originally rolled this troub as a favor to my guild, dragging him along on my 2nd account with basically AF on a mage - switching over every 30 seconds or so to JCap someone or cast PoTM. </p><p>After playing him as my main for about 2 months and really investing time/energy/plat into making him better - I have to say he's the most interesting of my toons to raid with - mainly due to versatility and just how incredibly valuable he is to the success of the raid.  When our guild's SK main-tanks a raid, she actually requests I be moved into her group at the expense of a dirge, because I raise her dps to absolutely ungodly levels.</p><p>And to the poster who said 3k parses are seen as a miracle - well I regularly hit in the 4.5-5 range with occasional spikes in the 6k range without a single piece of Tier 4 gear.  I roll with a pretty casual guild that's lost a lot of players (mainly to the expansion delay in November) and we have yet to clear Thet-Em-Au.</p><p>Soooo.... if you're a moderate to good player that doesn't want to delve too deeply into the game, roll the dirge - you'll be happier and always have a place somewhere.  If you really like to dig deep for every advantage and enjoy a good challenge, roll the troubador.  You will amaze and astound those raiding with you if you play the class well.  My three favorite lines ever from guildies are:</p><p><em>"I didn't think troubadors could do that!"</em></p><p><em>"Umm... someone tell him troubs are utility, not dps"</em></p><p><em>"Put that troub in my group, he almost doubles my parse!!"</em></p><p><em></em></p><p>Oh and by the way, dps is just the tip of the iceberg.  I've actually pulled up #2 on a heal parse due to the small ward attached to one of the resist songs.  Even though it's only 350 or so points, you have to multiply that by all 24 players in the raid.  On a fight with a rapid and continual low-damage AE you can sometimes vault over some slacker healers in groups 2,3,4.  There's nothing like it when guildies shake their head when you pull things like that, that they have no idea you are capable of doing.  Oh and how about a perfectly timed Countersong to make an enemy's attack only do 10% of it's normal damage?</p><p>Yeah, this class is a ton of fun - but you have to invest some time in it.</p></blockquote><p>I'm glad you like your troub.  The thing is, compared to the other "utility" classes, we effectively buff the least number of classes....just mages.  I mean, what do we offer a healer, scout, or fighter that dirge can't and on top of that, the dirge can buff each of those classes (BC, hate gain, grativas, melee skills, melee stoneskin, accuracy, etc etc etc).  The DPS we do might seem like it's good, but when measured against all other "utility" classes of players of equal skill and gear, we are at the bottom.  Heck, out of all the mages and scouts, we are at the bottom.  If you're coming in second on a heal parse, your healers are slacking, period.  It's funny when it happens but is by no means the norm and is definitely not a "pro" of being a troub.  Countersong is easily wasted and rarely needed or used simply because of the mechanics of it.  I could ramble on and on about it but whats the use?  Again, I'm happy you like your troub so much, really, I am.  But take a step back and really look at the dps potential that other utility classes have and what classes they can effectively buff and it's easy to see that we lack on all fronts.</p>

[Antipalad]

Countersong isn't even on my hotbar. It won't make or break an encounter, and if you should be so lucky as to land it once per named mob, then good for you.

[Legion11]

<p><cite>Leisure@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm glad you like your troub.  The thing is, compared to the other "utility" classes, we effectively buff the least number of classes....just mages.  I mean, what do we offer a healer, scout, or fighter that dirge can't and on top of that, the dirge can buff each of those classes (BC, hate gain, grativas, melee skills, melee stoneskin, accuracy, etc etc etc).  The DPS we do might seem like it's good, but when measured against all other "utility" classes of players of equal skill and gear, we are at the bottom.  Heck, out of all the mages and scouts, we are at the bottom.  If you're coming in second on a heal parse, your healers are slacking, period.  It's funny when it happens but is by no means the norm and is definitely not a "pro" of being a troub.  Countersong is easily wasted and rarely needed or used simply because of the mechanics of it.  I could ramble on and on about it but whats the use?  Again, I'm happy you like your troub so much, really, I am.  But take a step back and really look at the dps potential that other utility classes have and what classes they can effectively buff and it's easy to see that we lack on all fronts.</p></blockquote><p>I see what you're saying, and it's hard to argue.  I guess I'm speaking from the perspective of a semi-hardcore player in a *very* casual guild - so I think I'm shining more than I should be (I occasionally outparse some wizards, even when they are grouped with me and getting my buffs).</p><p>I can easily see what you're alluding to in a more end-game oriented guild where most (all?) of the raid members are pushing their classes to a higher performance level - no doubt the troubador ends up being one of the underperformers.</p><p>I hear what you're saying about troubs only buffing one archetype - whereas dirges buff 3.  I made a suggestion in another thread on these forums to add an additional proc to Aria of Magic.  It would give healers a 45% chance each time they cast a beneficial spell to proc an extra "Melodic Burst".  This would give the target of their spell say 500hps and 200 power.  It would have a milder overflow effect that heals 100hp and restores 50 power to all group members.  This would allow us to buff mages to a major extent, healers to a minor extent, and scouts/ fighters a tiny bit.</p><p>I'm not saying its the answer to closing the dirge/troubador gap, but it couldn't hurt the disparity a little bit if we were seen as more than just mage buffers.</p>

[Malachaimorgan]

<p>The real problem you will find is that things won't get much better than they are for you in the raid right at this moment.  You're in a newish casual guild.  So most of the gear worn by members of the raid comes from sources other than the raid.  This means that the level of gear people wear isn't really dependant on raid dynamic.</p><p>When the other classes dps starts really ramping up, troub dps won't because our damage is all over the place and we can't really focus on any one area.  Plus, you better pray for an Inquis in the magegroup, because without tenacity, your endgame dps is just gonna suck.  While dirges are piling on double attack to make the most of their autoattack proc that automatically hits for max damage, you are stuck grabbing melee crit, spell crit, combat mod, spell mod, etc.  While the dirges are starting to really benefit from the increased buffs as the members of their groups cap out their AAs and buffs for melee, you get to benefit only marginally as the magegroup buffs casting.  And you better pray that your raid has a full magegroup and no other scout or a tank gets a slot in the magegroup, or the few individual melee buffs you get will disappear.</p><p>Next comes the whole gear fiasco.  Since you are utility, any decent melee or caster items are going to go to the tier 1 and 2 scout dps and the sorcerers and chanters before they go to you.  The dirges are sitting in the tank groups, so their utility is of priority.  Also, as tanks tend to lead raid forces, they are going to be lobbying for 'their dirge'.  Since you are more evenly split between melee and casting, few items aren't going to benefit some other class more than you.  So get used to being dead last when groups divide up loot.  That nifty new necklace that increases total combat art damage by 10%......there are 7-8 scouts in line in front of you.  That wrist item that would increase your casting speed by 7%, there are 6-7 mages in line in front of you.  Hell, you will probably see tanks taking dps gear before you to 'help them hold hate' or 'for the stats'.  And you may very well see alts that see only situational use in the raid geared before you are.  Fact is, troub buffs are totally taken for granted in most raids because 1) they are intangible...nobody parses to show exactly how much your buffs and procs bring to the raid and 2) they aren't really dependant on the level of gear you wear.</p><p>Also, your own AAs and master spells are going to do little or nothing for your personal dps.  Even compared to dirges, you get nailed here.  As dirges are improving their group's melee dps, you are improving your group's casting dps.  Unfortunately, this only accounts for 30-40% of your total damage.  So, you are going to watch as the mages in the group literally double their dps between early and mid TSO raid content while your dps increases by maybe 25%.</p><p>Better gear VERY rarely improves buffs.  This is a massive disparity that the devs have never really done anything about.  The utility which mage and scout dps and tank mitigation and avoidance and even healer heal crit and heal amount bring to the raid increases directly in proportion to the quality of the gear they are wearing.  However, there is no +buff ability gear.  So better gear won't really improve the quality of your buffs (with very few exceptions).  The main contribution you bring to the raid doesn't really improve with the quality of gear you wear, as opposed to every other class.  What's worse, much of the benefit of higher-end gear is that it offers additional utility.  So, as the mages keep piling on additional damage proc items, the marginal benefit of PoTM and Aria keeps diminishing.  And as the healers strap on the Zarrakon (sp) belt, the group no longer has need of your power song.  As the casters start capping out their focus and casting skills, your buffs to these things become increasingly less relevant.</p><p>As a side note:  Dear devs, how about a stat and gear that directly increases the effectiveness of buffs and utility.  Every other role in the raid has their primary ability directly increased by better gear.  Utility classes are already the least fun and least rewarding to play; when did you last hear "wow, that PotM you threw really saved the day" or "nice jcap parse"?  While groups and raids are looking for 'tier 2 or better geared tank' or '6k+ dps', any old bard will do.  It's not like a well geared one really brings all that much more to the group or raid than a poorly geared one.</p><p>Finally, the troub AA trees are just AWFUL.  Once you clear 173 aas, permitting you to get the 10% self damage buff and UT, nothing else you take is really going to matter.  There are so many garbage abilities in the tree that nothing beyond 173 is really going to improve the troub in a real and meaningful way.</p><p>The only troubs I ever see consistently parsing above 7.5k are those who are wearing mostly avatar gear.  Of course by then, the tanks are doing 10k, the non-druid healers are doing 5k and the dirges are doing 10k.</p>

[Aaramis]

<p>^^ Some good points there, but ultimately it points to the Bard (and several other classes) simply being watered down in EQ2.  We're a little bit of a caster, and a little bit of a meleer, but not great at either department.  We compete with other classes for drops, and we're hard to max out efficiently with gear because of our multiple stat dependency.</p><p>But, the weird part is that in EQ1, Bards weren't much different.  They were never top dps, and would never dream of rolling against a Ranger, Rogue, or Warrior for a great new 1HS.  But nobody cared that we didn't parse #1, because what we brought to the group more than made up for it.  We were some of the best pullers in the game, we could mez, snare, charm, invis, and we could buff the heck out of the group in the process.  In EQ2, however, it seems as though most of our buffs are either of minimal effect, or more or less redundant with modern equipment / buffs from other classes.  Heck, everyone in EQ2 seems to come with buffs.  Even the pure melee are running around with a half-dozen self-buffs.  The devs need to reinvent the Troub and find a place for it, and offer us either more unique buffs or greatly improve our current ones so that they're noticeable.  JCap and PoTM are now the "signature" Troub spells, and everything else is largely ignored or neglected.</p><p>Personally, I'd love to see some of our buffs rolled together and increased in usefulness.  Make haste USEFUL, and possibly even combine it with our +str/sta line to make for a great melee buff (Dirges would do the same with their dps buff and +str/agi buffs);  fix Requiem of Reflection so that it's useful;  buff our regular shout damage/casting speed - autoattack damage shouldn't account for 30+% of our parse (and that's an issue with most melee classes now);  make our powertap attacks and songs actually drain a significant amount of power (otherwise, what's the point?) - maybe even allow a DoT + power tap over time spell;  fix the Troub tree to give us significantly better options;  make our elemental resist/wards VERY noticeable (remember the old days of EQ1 where tackling Nagafen without bard resist songs meant almost certain death??); and fix our Charm so that it's actually useful!!!.  Plenty of ways to improve the class, and there have been numerous threads by Bards on how to do it.  Problem is, nothing has happened, and people eventually leave the class to play the current flavour of the month class or simply betray to Dirge.  /sigh</p><p>Love the class, and will continue to play Troub, but feel (and have always felt) that they are overdue for some dev love.</p><p>*edit - grammar*</p>

[Caldorian]

<p>I have played a troub since shortly after launch. I played a Bard in eq1. These are my opinions on the class.</p> <p>1. IMO when they split the bards to dirge/troub and their individual skill sets they made one big mistake. They made dirge melee buffers with some buffs for healers. They made troubs Caster buffers with a few buffs for melee but they did not change the makeup of the troub to benefit from his own buffs like the dirge.</p> <p>Very simply make the Troub a ranged nuker type and problem solved. As a troub I have 3 single target nukes and 1 encounter nuke and an encounter DoT, just like the dirge, but most of our attack are CAs. A dirge helps himself and his groups with his buffs where a troub helps his casters more then he helps himself because he still stuck in the scout melee mold.  Troub CAs all do mental damage anyway so why not make them spells so all the +spell mod, +spell crit and procs can help it. Our Myth proc = Spell crit and we really only have 2 useful spells due to the damage vs casting time issues.</p> <p>If I had made the split in the troub/ dirge classes I would have made troubs ranged/spell attackers. Give them a few more ranged CAs and converted most of their CAs to spell attacks. They would sit back with the casters and nuke and use bow auto-attack. The troub's strength  lies in spells which we get little use of.</p> <p>2. We, as troubs, suffer from the lack of caster classes since it’s the only class we buff effectively. With the changes in the game making melee DPS so strong and lessening the effect of caster DPS we suffer right along with them when it comes to groups and raids. If most groups were caster heavy instead of melee heavy we would be in high demand instead of the dirge for groups.  Sorcerers are still in demand but not as much as melees. Summoners are not in demand at all. Chanters are in demand but they take our place so no help there.</p> <p>As it stands now I see plenty of "X group needs a bard to roll". "I answer with a tell "80 maxed/mythed  troub  LFG" and 90% of the time I get either ignored or if they are nice " We're really looking for a dirge, sorry." People don't even consider troubs bards anymore unless it's for a raid caster group.</p> <p>Now, from what I can see, number 2 will be somewhat fixed in the SF expansion. I am hoping for more mage groups for heroic content. #1 will always be an issue as long as the Troub is a caster buffer but still a melee class.</p> <p>As a side note. I for one have no delusions that I, as a troub, should be top of the parse or even in the top 10 but I should be neck and neck with any dirge similarly geared. If your really concerned with the parse this is what you do. Run ACT on a raid. When it's done go to zone wide parse. Look through every player but yourself and write down the DPS of precise note and dissonant note. Total those up and add them to your personal DPS. Now see where you stand in the parse. If there are 2 troubs then half the total of precise note’s DPS and your still in the ball park.  My raids run 3 dirges and me and if I add all that up, my parse is usually top of the parse. Of course we are adding more than just those two procs to the raid so as you can see, we can take pride in our buffs even if others don't realize their effect.</p> <p>These are my opinions from 177 days played, a Dec 2004 creation date and raiding every tier of content yet presented.</p> <p>I have many times thought of betraying to a dirge or just rerolling to another raid class but I truly enjoy my Troub in raids. It's the heroic and solo content that I have issue with. I have seen many troubs come and go over the years and most of them I can equate back to these two issues.</p>

[inequidy]

<p>My troub main just got scrapped in favor of an assassin today. I refuse to play that pile of poo in another expansion to make everyone else look good without having fun myself.</p>