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Kurindor_Mythecnea

12-24-2009, 09:41 AM

Are you an EQ2 player who wants our PvP to realize its fullest potential? A dev, a designer, a community manager? News flash! Here's the list of things to do.· Allow level locking starting at level 20· Reitemize pieces to have greater class-specific stat mods· Have class sets for each tier starting in T3· World PvP objectives with regional and majority bonuses for dominant control (double token rewards, +2.5 or 5% spell DA, +2.5 or 5% flurry, +10% to all resists, +10% to all base stats, +10% health, +10% power, +10% in-combat run-speed, +10% mount speed, +250 in-combat health regen, +5% reduction to resistability, +5% defensive skill mods, +5% offensive skill mods, +10 DA, +10% AOE auto attack, +25% auto attack range, +12.5% spell range, +10 crit, +5% block, +5% accuracy, +20 DPS, +20 attack speed, +10% reuse mode, +10% casting speed, +5% base damage) - Bonuses would vary based upon the region - Areas could be made to promote either melee or casters - The primary, majority control bonus would be double tokens from writs (if not just plus 1, or plus 2, or plus 3 tokens per writ), to REALLY motivate players to fighter to have control in all areas for their tier · Over 10-20 world PvP objectives would exist per tier, to ensure a constant ebb and flow for regional and faction majority control bonuses · Contesting objectives would end for half the length of time the objectives play out for, once a side has been deemed victorious.· World pvp objective areas tagged as hot zones each day could trigger PvP body drops as... - Player heads for mounting - Rare raws - Adornment components/recipes - Regular recipes for appearance/house items or the mounting of killed enemys' heads - Other unique items to help disperse choke points throughout the continents· PvP objectives could have encounter restrictions (only solos, duos, trios, quattros, or groups could enter, up to a maximum 10, 20, or 30 from each side, etc)· PvP objectives could be in all zones, with options for majority control relative to each tier· No capture the flag...have original, lore-based goals, such as: - Running cursed/blessed/imbued fragments/components through circuits to energize protective orbs/cannons/generators - Activating magical field levers to ward off reconaissance from the enemy - Augmenting a telescope to pierce through enemy defenses - Constructing siege equipment with private plans found off of player body drops, to then assault a city wall - Protecting a VIP relative to each zone (would require a particular class and species of player, only available in ethnic locales [i.e. gnomes in klakanon or steamfont, fae in greater faydark, etc]) for the purpose of safekeeping secret adornment/tinkering/crafting recipes - Contribute enough raw power (done through dragging enemy corpses to a transmutational abyss) to animate a mad sorceror's release of rabid mounts (would require field crafting combines to keep tinkered machines functional in their trek to the summoned abyss)· Allow same-faction duels on pvp servers (when hit by those not dueling, duel flagging is automatically removed)· Allow pve/pvp/potionless options in the arena (also allow entrance from anywhere in norrath with a 30 sec entry bar)· Offer matchmaking for 1 vs 1, 2 vs 2, 3 vs 3, 4 vs 4, 5 vs 5, 6 vs 6, and so on, up to 12 to 12 for the new battlegrounds - Also have unique, pre-arranged objectives different from world pvp objectives· Have different rewards for battleground pvp and world pvp, as to ensure the health of both, and to also incentivize enduring the greater hardship of constant pvp on Nagafen - Mounts - Ranged item - Charms - Combinations of jewelry to allow up to 3 different options for each slot, with a full suit available· Create more contested dungeons with quality gear (also with pvp objectives) - Fosters variety, options, and a general interesting mix to the bland "farm shards/tokens, pay mercant" or "raid 5 hrs a day 5 days a week every month to have enough DKP/raid attendance to bid on raid loots" - Promotes healthy competition and in-game economy· Provide PvP only tags to revive sickness that would damage your gear 20% every time you attempted an offensive maneuver, or every time you had an offensive maneuver attempted against you, could do well.- Opposing faction's mender bots would have HP and be attackable. 100K or so would do. - Other ideas that some may come to brainstorm could be better suited to the end of handi-capping revive sickness in PvP, but quickly rendering one's character useless until having repaired could prove to be a sound guard against instantly popping back into battle as an almost fresh reinforcement, when you really aren't. · Grant extra tokens for pvp writs completed entirely in the city, with carnage flags (7 as opposed to 5)· Remove permanent immunity in open world zones and after evacuation (only increase it after death to equal the timer for revive sickness)---· Reinstate fame loss - Cyclical consequences and tug-of-war type objectives such as fame/notoriety/infamy provide a high level of energetic immersion, on top of increasing replay value - Being able to maintain titles for multiple characters is more appealing than only being able to do so on one, due to the hated, despised, and generally despicable fame decay while offline - Removing fame loss on death didn't counteract the general willingness of players' engaging in combat. - People still seek to live, flee, and generally evade death due to the obvious aversion people have toward loss, coming by the way of either death, or helping the enemy increase in stature when a writ update is provided, should one be subject to the respawn menu· Remove fame decay while offline· Instate fame decay starting 15 minutes after your last PvP battle, while online· Reset all PvP ranks upon revising fame according to suggestions that 80-99% of the players have AVIDLY advised---· New writ posters also need to be usable while in-combat· Writ posters shouldn't engage you in combat when usedMany groupmates get irked when you have to run away to hide behind a tree while you try to disengage from finishing a writ in a hectic battle, so that you don't waste kills being applied to your recent list without being writ updates when enemies are so sparse.As many others have noted, being solo is promoted without these two characteristics included for our writ posters, as those in strong groups that act as the brunt of an offense or defense for their faction are punished, while those who die and pop off AoEs or what-have-you benefit, being able to update their writ and maximize token gaining efficiency.Addressing the zerg cannot be done by removing tokens and instating "PvP status". Hot zones, world pvp objectives, these things would successfully disperse and mix up the volume of combatants, especially if you take into account bonuses for regional/majority control.Those who ascribe to such a philosophy are confused in that they forget how body-dropped tokens were why writs were opted for instead, to combat scout dominance, given their solo formidability with tracking.Such a system of "PvP status" (separate from normal status) would lead to many complaints due to the prevalence of group PvP, on top of a multitude of organized duel areas made to abuse the system and escalate the rate at which rewards were obtained, compared to others who either resort to group PvP, or those who are dependent upon such for viability.(P.S. All offerings given through station market place [aside from services] should be obtainable through quest lines, either PvP-oriented or not. Obtaining such items should take 30 minutes for every dollar worth of station cash that they're worth. So, factoring that into rare body drops as an aspect of region/majority control, probabilities could be established, on top of PvP-specific quests that penetrate into certain objectives. Promoting intra-world immersion is key, not inter-world.)(P.P.S. Aaaand I cant forget the classic...Comments and concerns? Discuss!)

Orthureon

12-24-2009, 01:04 PM

I think you never fully grasped how the Status based system would work. The only thing that would be penalized would be ganking and leeching. It would promote more fair fights. 1v1s would not grant more status than even odds. Actually 6v6 would reward each player in the group with 6 full status hits. Meaning It would be the same amount you would get from a 1v1 except multiplied by 6. Hell I am sure they could institute a system where fighting against the odds can yield higher status gains. IE 6v18, each kill would be worth triple the status. With the current system 30 people can kill 6 and ALL get 6 complete updates, whereas 30v6 with status would drastically reduce the amount of status rewarded (precisely 1/5th of a full status hit in this scenario). So no more 40v1 with all full updates, now they would get 1/40th of the status. This idea seems pretty fair to me.The current system heavily rewards ganking and zerging. Even with your mini-games people would still do what is required to get their armor the fastest way, and that is zerging.

Kurindor_Mythecnea

12-24-2009, 02:15 PM

Well, I suppose I can confess to having a mental block to modifying the current status rewards to be equivalent to solo kills when the odds were even (for the "PvP status" idea). =] Whether the code could be simplified enough for parsing encounters being consecutively added onto one another in a streamlined way, that's the biggest issue, but it seems they already have it instated for regular status and PvP encounter involvement therein.I think the greater issue though, is that gauging the average time obtaining gear would take is far less available with the PvP status system. Writ completion tends to be every 20 minutes to 30 minutes or MORE, on average, for players on PvP servers. So, while 2000 tokens might take 66.6 hrs FLAT with max efficiency, that turns out to around 200 hrs spread throughout 40 days, with 5 hours spent each day. That is a concrete dedication of effort that is directly comparable to the effort raiders would exhert, something that wouldn't be as apparent with "PvP status".But, zerging is moreso an issue when there's only ONE chokepoint, like we're aware of with Teren's Grasp. It's a natural cause and effect of the limits imposed upon world PvP. There will always be stragglers that don't end up in groups substantial enough to compare to those of greater longevity. Thus, zerging survives as a tenable strategy. And, as far as I'm concerned, those without enough social connects, or those without wits enough to succeed beyond the zerg, why not offer them a chance at leveling the playing field?Allowing for the generally equal opportunity of gearing one's self out is as close to making raid gear available to casuals as we can come. Any further, and it seems far too unrealistic an objective. Even now, it still is. With pieces being worth 2,000 tokens and the average person completing writs once every 30 minutes, that's FIVE HOURS of STRAIGHT PvPING for FORTY DAYS. Now, add in 5 days a week and not 7, and that becomes a period of TWO MONTHS to get a piece that raiders could get in ONE.I also forgot...the most important change should be a fix to server efficiency so spell/combat art/positioning lag isn't an issue during large battles. Probably won't happen, but, wishful thinking should still be on this list!

Orthureon

12-24-2009, 03:07 PM

Hmm valid point about the writ cooldown, though I think this could be solved by simply making the recent list unlimited.I forgot to mention, I do like your other ideas. I simply think writs should change to a status based system, though a hybrid writ/status based system might be best. Perhaps receive a writ that would require "x" amount of status and kills. This writ would cover the entire cost of any given piece, a writ for each piece would be available (only one at a time of course) The cooldown could be the combined cooldown time that it would require to obtain one piece (cooldown of 15 minutes instead of 10). Example: A piece costs 100 tokens, you get 5 tokens per writ so it would require 20 writs, or 300 minutes (5 hours) if you prefer. A five hour cooldown seems like a lot, however you would still spend nearly the same time overall with the old system. It would prevent an accelerated acquisition rate, which is one of your concerns.As for receiving the new writs it would merely mean a few more catagories when hailing the writ giver (example below).Hail writ giver:<ul><li>Void Tokens<ul><li>Armor: Would list only armor pieces usable by your class, or catagorize it by class. IE Armor --> Shadowknight --> List available choices.</li><li>Miscellaneous: Would list all non-armor pieces.</li></ul></li></ul>OR<ul><li>ROK Tokens<ul><li>Armor: Would list only armor pieces usable by your class, or catagorize it by class. IE Armor --> Shadowknight --> List available choices.</li><li>Miscellaneous: Would list all non-armor pieces.</li></ul></li></ul>

Kurindor_Mythecnea

12-24-2009, 03:53 PM

"PvP status" as an alternative or combination for quested tokens is a far foggier gradient for the actual player/time cost of items. Writs, as they are, provide a clear baseline for comparison to the value of commitment put forth, relative to raid loot and other offerings for equipping one's toon! Essentially, it's easier to gauge worth of items in the simple terms of a general, average time sink. Also, with cooldowns fairly short as they are now, I think it promotes a more active and consistent presence on the battlefield, whereas, if cooldowns are lengthy, many people will busy themselves with PvE or other pastimes until they can obtain a reward from engagin. (P.S. I think raid quality jewelry/charm/ranged pieces should be on the order of 200-300 writs, not 400, as people raiding for 2 months to get pieces tend to obtain a couple, or a lot, of filler items in between the period it takes to obtain the goods of max caliber.)(P.P.S. I consolidated later conjured concepts into the original post, aside from the obvious...IMPROVE SERVER PERFORMANCE UNDER LOAD!! hehehehe.)

Chia_Pet

12-24-2009, 11:21 PM

actually, PvP status is pretty clear cut. 5000 points for a 1v1 kill is what we have now, nothing really changes. thus the same amount of kills could be required for a PvP peice. 750 1v1 kill points equals 150 writs. however what this does is make it harder to get PvP kill as except for good 1v1 fights and 6v6 fights or any equal fights, the amount of status would count for less then a kill does now. it DOES fix the problem of zerging as getting 115 status points is worth alot LESS then a single writ update is right now. items would have to be adjusted of course, but all in all, the merits of status based rewards outway any small amount of trial and error that will need to be done to come up with a proper price for PvP items.think about it, no more limits to the tier you are in, if you choose to PvP up to tier 6 and save your status for tier 6 PvP items you ca. if you wish to hold that status till you hit lvl 80 or 90, you can. no longer will lower tier PvP be useless when you wind up lvling to quickly. Many tiers arent even enjoyable right now, so PvP during those tiers wont count for naught. by the same token you can stop in a tier and have the status you earned availbale to you.Leechers, low lvl leechers...the supposed bane of the lower tiers. with Status they will get NOTHING unless they actually contribute enough to the fight, 30 greys swarming an engaged 80 will recieve NAUGHT as should be the case. meanwhile a group of greys who do take on and kill a red will still get rewarded/ heck a multiplier by lvl could be added in if need be to reward the ones who do fight higher tiers effectively. the poossibilities are endless.faction ratios can be self adjusted as well with this system. think of it, 40 freeps agfainst 10 Qs, the Qs will get way more status for a kill then the freeps will, or viceversa. freeps who wish to actually advance and get better armor may betray to the otherside because they can get more status and thus more PvP items if they switch. once the numbers have equalized that wont be the case anymore, its a self correcting system, and it doesnt even require bonus points for the outnumbered side, it just WORKS. The zerg? well I have to admit, full on mass PvP can be fun, but it really shouldnt reward players the way it does now. nothing is going to stop mass PvP, nor should it be stopped, but it definatly shouldnt be rewarded the way it is now.Add in a Staus reduction amount of say 70% to the revive sickness buff and you have once again helped to stop and reward the Zerg mentality.Sometimes you hear people complain of an outside player leeching fame, but you never really know who the leecher is. is it the ranger on the outskirts sniping away? maybe, but if he does a significant amount of the damage its hardly leeching, especially when a enemy shows up in front of multiple faction members and all go after him. the status system will reward the ones who are making an effect.What about healers, well if they are healing a huge amount of the damage being put out, say a warden heals 75% of the damage inflicted by the other side, he can easily claim for healing 75% of the status. he may not have killed the guy attacking him, but he was the target or healed the target enough to earn his place. this type of reward system would go far for rewarding players who eran thier place and leave the ones who do squat behind in the dust.The possibilities are endless, and quite frankly I still havent heard a valid complaint yet.If anyone has any question about any circumstance they are worried about, post them here and ill gladly run the nubers of how the system would work and then ou can decide if its good or bad.

Orthureon

12-25-2009, 01:05 PM

Arturr,Figuring in amount of status to grant to someone based on DPS or HPS is a huge flaw IMO. The only determining factor they should bring into play is time engaged. If they went by DPS I would always get the top chunk by having massive AoE damage, nearly always topping the PVP parse. It is just unfair to non-dps classes, or non-aoe classes.Btw where have you been? I haven't seen you out PVPing in ages.

Chia_Pet

12-25-2009, 03:39 PM

Ive been very bored with PvP lately. it just isnt fun anymore to me.That said, while yes you may top the pa_rse, its the amount of damage you do to an individual that would count. thus, let us make a very basic example.Let us say you are 5 other faction members are fighting 6 enemy. you top the par_se, doing approx 25% of the damage dished out.. would you get 25% of all the status ? probably. however if you were ina group and it was all 6 of you, each of you would get a full 5k status for killing the group. actually since it was suggested you get a bonus for grouping you would get probably 6k status. now if everyone is alone, and thus not grouped and you did 25% of the damage, then yes, youd get 25% the dude that only got a few hits in and accomplished nothing wouldnt get squat. Now at the same time, let us say there was a warden on youre side fighting, and he only did 2% of the dameg dealt, yet healed 75% of the damage taken, he would get at least 75% status for the fight because he was the one healing through it. now keep in mind we need to come up with a good solid equation here. i mean if the 6 enemies only dished out 5k damage, while your faction 6 dished out 100k, then obviously the warden didnt heal squat.Like ive said, right now people get status based on what theyve done in the fight. should a warden that just heals himself during a fight who is ungrouped get alot of status, compared to the people around him that did all the damage and killed the 3 guys attacking him? I dunno, thats a tough call, it just means you can go out there and absorb attacks while somone else does all the work of actually beating them. Some classes are best suited for solo and group. A healer alone is gonna have a tough time getting status if he cant actually kill anyone. if he can, then great hes deserving of it. at the same time lets say a warden non grouped joins a fight, but instead of just healing himself, he makes a serious effort to keep his non grouped faction members alive, NOW hes really contributing to the fight, hes not just there absorbing attacks while people are saving his butt, but instead is assisiting his faction. maybe a multiplier added to the amount healed would be in order. thing is, all this can be worked out to be fair for everyone. we just need to make the effort to do it, and my only hold up for coming up with a full working model is i dont think the PvP Dev is even open to the idea yet.

xcoltsfancoltsx

12-25-2009, 05:33 PM

Oilthin already said it's to hard to code any of this to make it work, they would rather make an entire battlegrounds system before making minor tweaks to the pvp ruleset!