Holy ground nerf... why was it edited out of the letter on this forum? [Archive]

TerrorFirmer

12-08-2009, 09:22 AM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Beta and NDA, nuff said. We all know an Amends nerf is coming; I remember reading a quote a whlie ago which bascially said "no way amends in its current form will continue"; but it sucks to loose holy ground as well. I guess we just have to wait and see.</blockquote>If it was an NDA issue why is it posted in a place that anybody could see it?As for gutting amends, I'd rather that they get rid of it and give us the tools we actually need to tank. A lot of times amends is more of a hindrance than anything else, and it sucks to have to rely on someone else to tank efficiently. Sure, for undergeared tanks, it might be a godsend in a heroic situation... but that is it. If they just got rid of amends and didn't change anything else, though, I think there would be a lot of people done with the game who play paladins. It isn't "easy street" as everyone seems to believe, especially when your target is less than ideal or dies a lot from AOEs..etc. Having a chunk of our aggro out of our hands seems like it was a poor design choice anyway... fix it already.

Anurra

12-08-2009, 12:13 PM

I just find it funny where Brenlo claims that HG was not supposed to change hate positions but should generate raw hate instead. If you read the description and spell affects, it clearly states that it does change your position.I also find it funny how he claims we (Fighters) are going to get some love and then proceeds to nerf Crusaders. Haha! Awesome! I love logic!

Boli32

12-08-2009, 02:48 PM

Remember crusaders aren't fighters... only warrors are fighters(tanks) according to SoE the fact we could tank was obviously a bug <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

TerrorFirmer

12-08-2009, 07:23 PM

Without holy ground, how are paladins supposed to hold agro on mem wiping mobs that mem wipe REPEATEDLY? I am just curious about that. That was my one tool that would work against a group of mem wiping adds consistently. Now I will have to let the mem wiping adds kill a few people before I can get them back on me, awesome! :-p Either rescue needs to be changed to 24 positions and hate with a lower recast or they need to leave our aggro tools alone.I don't see why they don't have paladin heals generate lots of raw hate, that would be a good way of having paladins fill a niche. It also makes sense, considering that is one aspect of us. Make the regenerating ward count toward that, and have lay on hands actually be useful and FILL up a player's hp at ZERO COST and instant. Give us another instant heal with a ten second recast to generate hate with, or even a ward so we don't have our hate gimped by being properly healed by our healers. Heck, replace our crappy endline stonewall with something that has our heals generate an insane amount of agro? Maybe even have lay on hands have a rescue like affect? Make our abilities we have now USEFUL instead of nerfing them to hell?How about all heals on us generate a decent amount of AOE hate? That would be how we could fill a niche, as well! Instead of just by dealing damage, we gain hate by having hit points restored? I don't know, SOE, you figure it out. edited: to add that my ideas probably suck but oh well :p

Anurra

12-09-2009, 12:54 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Remember crusaders aren't fighters... only warrors are fighters(tanks) according to SoE the fact we could tank was obviously a bug <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>OH!!! That's right! I am a backup healer/utility. Silly me! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" />

Anurra

12-09-2009, 12:55 PM

<cite>TerrorFirmer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Without holy ground, how are paladins supposed to hold agro on mem wiping mobs that mem wipe REPEATEDLY? I am just curious about that. That was my one tool that would work against a group of mem wiping adds consistently. Now I will have to let the mem wiping adds kill a few people before I can get them back on me, awesome! :-p Either rescue needs to be changed to 24 positions and hate with a lower recast or they need to leave our aggro tools alone.I don't see why they don't have paladin heals generate lots of raw hate, that would be a good way of having paladins fill a niche. It also makes sense, considering that is one aspect of us. Make the regenerating ward count toward that, and have lay on hands actually be useful and FILL up a player's hp at ZERO COST and instant. Give us another instant heal with a ten second recast to generate hate with, or even a ward so we don't have our hate gimped by being properly healed by our healers. Heck, replace our crappy endline stonewall with something that has our heals generate an insane amount of agro? Maybe even have lay on hands have a rescue like affect? Make our abilities we have now USEFUL instead of nerfing them to hell?How about all heals on us generate a decent amount of AOE hate? That would be how we could fill a niche, as well! Instead of just by dealing damage, we gain hate by having hit points restored? I don't know, SOE, you figure it out. edited: to add that my ideas probably suck but oh well :p</blockquote>They could do a lot of things to a lot of classes to make them better, but they don't and won't. Their fatal class flaw is not listening to the player base (ie: class leads/whatever) to get what really is going on to make the right changes.

Prestissimo

12-10-2009, 12:44 AM

I guess the question to pose to the balances developer is "without amends and without holy ground, just exactly what DOES a paladin do that makes them desireable?"However, seeing as they probably don't even understand the first thing about how a paladin works or tanks, it wouldn't suprise me to see them say "healing". At that point, it would be time to /quit and pick up another game.

Loxus

12-11-2009, 03:46 PM

I wouldn't too hung up on this until we know "exactly" what the change to holy ground is and how this change is going to play into a possible amends change, the new AA's for the expansion, and the taunt tweaks.The only thing we can all hope for is that the devs are fair across the board with agro/taunting and survivability for all tanks.I'm fully expecting taunt crits to show up again, along with classes to increase taunt crits. What would be interesting is a (insert utility/support class here) buff "snap" agro proc that could be cast on 1 or more tanks. Unfortunately this would make that class the new "must have" class in raid and group. LOL watch be an Assassin buff!

Prestissimo

12-14-2009, 02:38 PM

<cite>Loxus@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wouldn't too hung up on this until we know "exactly" what the change to holy ground is and how this change is going to play into a possible amends change, the new AA's for the expansion, and the taunt tweaks.</blockquote>If they change amends and holy ground, they are inevitably going to force themselves to accept what they discovered but refused to admit until near the end of the initial fighter changes. If they take out amends to force us to rely solely on our self generated hate, they will have to buff the living daylights out of paladin's self generated hate.Seeing as there is obviously some hidden agenda to continously nerf the paladins (mostly infered from the fact that I can't even recall the last time we saw something buffed despite many long standing opportunities such as stonewall... correct me if i'm wrong), i don't see any loving to paladin self generated hate happening any time soon even if it's desperately needed, which thus means that the change to amends wont happen any day soon.

Marcusaval

12-14-2009, 06:13 PM

Ok lets get real I dont think i have an issue in holding aggro even without amends I quite often to forget to put it on anyone these days and it really is not the end of all things.Holy Ground is an extemely useful tool for memwiping mobs in a raid instance or saving some squishey from certain death when a mobs broke loose but its not the end of the world.Providing we get somthing half decent to replace these I am not going to cry although if they leave SK's the way they are and take these abilities from Paladins it would be unfair as SK's are overpowered in the aggro department at present.Any nerfs must be considered in the context of an overall 'balancing' of the fighter classes that has been talked about for some time. Providing there is Balance!I wait to see what else is happening with fighters before I amke any judgement.

TerrorFirmer

12-14-2009, 08:16 PM

<cite>Marcusavalon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok lets get real I dont think i have an issue in holding aggro even without amends I quite often to forget to put it on anyone these days and it really is not the end of all things.Holy Ground is an extemely useful tool for memwiping mobs in a raid instance or saving some squishey from certain death when a mobs broke loose but its not the end of the world.Providing we get somthing half decent to replace these I am not going to cry although if they leave SK's the way they are and take these abilities from Paladins it would be unfair as SK's are overpowered in the aggro department at present.Any nerfs must be considered in the context of an overall 'balancing' of the fighter classes that has been talked about for some time. Providing there is Balance!I wait to see what else is happening with fighters before I amke any judgement.</blockquote>Lets get real, then. What are you experienced with? Raiding? Groups? Soloing?If the answer is groups or soloing, then yeah, you are obviously NOT going to have trouble holding aggro because you will either have nobody to hold aggro from or you will have dirge/coercer/transfers on you so that overall you will generate more aggro then the rest of your GROUP. Also, true memwiping mobs are extremely rare in GROUP content, the only one I can think of off of the top of my head is the space lobsters in the eternal atrium in POF. If we are talking raids, where certain classes can burst over 20k dps easily, then I have to tell you you are full of it... holy ground moreso than amends. It is true that you can tank, but not as well as other classes, without amends and holy ground. I challenge you to hold aggro in a raid where more than one person is bursting high dps without the use of amends or other transfers which they are threatening to get rid of as well. As has been pointed out already, the truth is that because holy ground and amends exist our core abilities are a lot weaker than other tanks. So yeah, we can still tank without them, but we have to work a lot harder than any other tank. Just compare the base numbers all around and you will see the disparity. It is not really anything that could be argued about.I could care less about that, though, just bring us up to the level of the other tanks if you rip away two tools useful to the class. I am less concerned about amends and more concerned about holy ground. With a coercer/dirge I can generally rip agro without even trying, but it is keeping aggro against frequently memwiping mobs that is the concern. If they are going to put such "challenges" into the game there needs to be viable tools to combat it.

Meirril

12-21-2009, 01:14 AM

You know, I'm willing to suck for a year if it means dev will be forced to address how underpowered paladins are compaired to other fighters. Take away amends. Without it we will have agro issues. Without it every other fighter in the game, and some scouts will do a better job tanking than we do. Without amends, there really isn't a reason to have a paladin over any other tank.In a situation where survivability is a real issue, paladin heals don't make a difference because we're usually interrupted during the long casting times. That's three abilities on everybody's hotbars that basically can only be used when we don't need them. If these were all changed to CAs and had a damage component added to them then we'd start closing the gap with other fighters. Maybe that would happen if Amends went away.Right now, the only thing paladins have going for them is that we don't have agro issues. Once the crutch gets pulled out from under us and exactly how much previous developers depended on Amends to make up for no improvment in the class while other fighters continued to develope since DoF we'll either see the return of Amends, or (hopefully) an across the board boosting of our current abilities and new abilities added. Who knows? Maybe we'll even get 3 stun lines like paladins in EQ1 had and some templar-like buffs.

Orthureon

12-21-2009, 01:43 PM

Yeah stupid that they edited it out.Anyways, for whoever is saying SKs are better than Paladins, or Paladins are underpowered... lol get real. BOTH Crusaders are OP, Paladins can hold aggro so easily at present it is silly (I know I was an 80 Paladin for a while). I tested Amends out on my buddy, while I went AFK to get some food. No joke, he said I only lost aggro a few times (this was at level 80).Without the SKs myth they would have a hard time holding aggro imo. Personally betraying from Paladin to SK yielded very little DPS increase. Though I admit I was fully mastered on my pally, whereas I have nearly all ad3s on my SK, however I have much better gear.

Loxus

12-22-2009, 02:03 PM

Guys, we must realize that any changes outside of a vague mentioning of holy ground being changed which was (deleted/retracted/not intended to be published) is purely speculation.All we know to this point is.1) Tanks are getting agro tweaks (but we don't know how, or what)2) Holy ground "Might be" getting changed (but we aren't 100% sure other then it was stated that it was going from a positional hate to a raw hate). But, again we still don't know the details how or even "IF" it's getting changed.3) Nothing has been mentioned about Amends by any SOE employee. (I mentioned it and I was wrong for doing so)Anyway, it's all speculation to this point, so whipping ourselves into a frenzy over something we know nothing about yet is counter-productive. All we can do is wait and see and offer our best feedback and ideas when we do know. Until then, enjoy the ride.

Brigh

12-22-2009, 04:18 PM

The last I played EQ 1 paladin was years ago, but in that game all it took was like one cast of Cease to grab aggro.No need to rely on someone else's DPS. I don't know why the Devs of EQ II decided on the aggro siphon mechanics.

Boethius_Permafrost

12-22-2009, 04:31 PM

<cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote>I tested Amends out on my buddy, while I went AFK</blockquote>This test isn't really applicable to a raid setting. For two-player questing, amends is a solid lock because of the hate decrease on the other player as well as your own increase. In a group setting with multiple dps, or a raid, you still must generate a large degree of dps/hate. But replacing amends with more raid-friendly agro abilities will hurt the casual paladins who play with one or two friends and maybe let amends agro give them the time to chain heal themselves and stay alive. Just say'n.I agree that a general revamp of fighter hate is in order, and I never said anything bad about the last attempted revamp until I saw it and concluded it was not at all balanced. But I will say that as long as the mem-wipe mechanic is in game, there are risks with removing the snap agro of fighter abilities. And I would also like to point out that crusaders should remain the best at holding agro, as that is their niche. (Although I wouldn't object to even better toughness, that might not be fair to guardians.)

therodge

12-22-2009, 05:50 PM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>You know, I'm willing to suck for a year if it means dev will be forced to address how underpowered paladins are compaired to other fighters. Take away amends. Without it we will have agro issues. Without it every other fighter in the game, and some scouts will do a better job tanking than we do. Without amends, there really isn't a reason to have a paladin over any other tank.In a situation where survivability is a real issue, paladin heals don't make a difference because we're usually interrupted during the long casting times. That's three abilities on everybody's hotbars that basically can only be used when we don't need them. If these were all changed to CAs and had a damage component added to them then we'd start closing the gap with other fighters. Maybe that would happen if Amends went away.Right now, the only thing paladins have going for them is that we don't have agro issues. Once the crutch gets pulled out from under us and exactly how much previous developers depended on Amends to make up for no improvment in the class while other fighters continued to develope since DoF we'll either see the return of Amends, or (hopefully) an across the board boosting of our current abilities and new abilities added. Who knows? Maybe we'll even get 3 stun lines like paladins in EQ1 had and some templar-like buffs.</blockquote>i uhhhh no what never mind this is so wrong its not even worth the effort to pick it apart and give example why

Prestissimo

12-22-2009, 10:43 PM

<cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah stupid that they edited it out.Anyways, for whoever is saying SKs are better than Paladins, or Paladins are underpowered... lol get real. BOTH Crusaders are OP, Paladins can hold aggro so easily at present it is silly (I know I was an 80 Paladin for a while). I tested Amends out on my buddy, while I went AFK to get some food. No joke, he said I only lost aggro a few times (this was at level 80).Without the SKs myth they would have a hard time holding aggro imo. Personally betraying from Paladin to SK yielded very little DPS increase. Though I admit I was fully mastered on my pally, whereas I have nearly all ad3s on my SK, however I have much better gear.</blockquote>If that agro "test" really worked that well, then run with better dpsers or try to do it with a group that includes other transfering classes (I.E. a typical pickup group through a shard run). It is true that up until the hate cap the paladins where insanely OP in agro, and it's true that amends still is a potentially very valuable tool, but it is equally true and undenyable that it can be equally as devastating to the paladin's agro control if you get a group that simply doesn't have the right class combination, buffs, or balance in dps to give the top amends candidate the infrequently contested top hate generation spot.If the SK can't hold hate without their myth, they need to reroll. My SK had zero problem at level 35 holding agro against level 40s in a group fighting level 39s, including a warlock and we were chain pulling a good 5-12 mobs at a time. It also didn't have trouble holding agro in karnor's castle in a similar type of chain pulling scenario. I also rarely see an SK have issues in raids or groups. Even the wizzy that was parsing 23k on the named in heroic shard zones was not pulling agro off the sk, and the sk was not quite as well geared.The paladins are not crying to be OPed like the SKs are now, they just simply want to be given fair treatment. The developers from the way they have been behaving appear to be doing everything they can to be unfair to the paladins. I see a class that is the single and solitary one that gains effectively nothing from AA points that boosts their raid wide buff to help others let alone another bonus to their raid wide ability like the zerkers, sks, monks, and bruisers get (dunno if guards get it). I see a class that is the single and solitary one that gets absolutely NOTHING to mitigate spike damage until they reach their TSO endline ability and even then it is only one physical attack block and it costs way more power than it should for being such a horrendous ability. I see holy touch that costs about 1/10th of the typical paladin's power pool and heals for about the same as the shadowknight's death touch heals them for but without the extra range, without the damage, and they don't even have a power cost on it. I see the paladins who have the worst overall numbers across the board of all tanks including guardians (although by a very very narrow margin) and the only thing that makes up for it is the few abilities they've been threatening to take away for a long time and were very close to actually making good on doing.Why is it so rediculously much to ask that the paladins stop being attacked simply because of the way they were designed? They are supposed to have the best hate at the cost of everything else. They have lost everything else, and now hate is being taken away and with nothing being given back in return. This and this alone is what has upset so many paladins.

Maamadex

12-23-2009, 04:32 AM

I just don't get what Sony is trying to accomplish anymore with class balance, game balance or anything really. Seems like they don't even really know either. Are Crusaders overpowered? Or are Warriors and Brawlers underpowered? In my opinion, they should be making the other tanks viable choices instead of picking on us is all heh. Tanks should have aggro, without requiring perfect raidlike buff situations. As long as you know how to play reasonably well. I'm not terribly worried if they get rid of amends, or nerf holy ground or whatever they do, i've played a paladin since launch, its just disappointing to see what they choose to focus upon sometimes. They need to take a good hard look at the other fighters before they nerf crusaders. Shadowknights desperately needed what they got with TSO, and paladins got some benefit too being sorta linked to them.

TerrorFirmer

12-23-2009, 07:26 PM

<cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah stupid that they edited it out.Anyways, for whoever is saying SKs are better than Paladins, or Paladins are underpowered... lol get real. BOTH Crusaders are OP, Paladins can hold aggro so easily at present it is silly (I know I was an 80 Paladin for a while). I tested Amends out on my buddy, while I went AFK to get some food. No joke, he said I only lost aggro a few times (this was at level 80).Without the SKs myth they would have a hard time holding aggro imo. Personally betraying from Paladin to SK yielded very little DPS increase. Though I admit I was fully mastered on my pally, whereas I have nearly all ad3s on my SK, however I have much better gear.</blockquote>If that agro "test" really worked that well, then run with better dpsers or try to do it with a group that includes other transfering classes (I.E. a typical pickup group through a shard run). It is true that up until the hate cap the paladins where insanely OP in agro, and it's true that amends still is a potentially very valuable tool, but it is equally true and undenyable that it can be equally as devastating to the paladin's agro control if you get a group that simply doesn't have the right class combination, buffs, or balance in dps to give the top amends candidate the infrequently contested top hate generation spot.If the SK can't hold hate without their myth, they need to reroll. My SK had zero problem at level 35 holding agro against level 40s in a group fighting level 39s, including a warlock and we were chain pulling a good 5-12 mobs at a time. It also didn't have trouble holding agro in karnor's castle in a similar type of chain pulling scenario. I also rarely see an SK have issues in raids or groups. Even the wizzy that was parsing 23k on the named in heroic shard zones was not pulling agro off the sk, and the sk was not quite as well geared.The paladins are not crying to be OPed like the SKs are now, they just simply want to be given fair treatment. The developers from the way they have been behaving appear to be doing everything they can to be unfair to the paladins. I see a class that is the single and solitary one that gains effectively nothing from AA points that boosts their raid wide buff to help others let alone another bonus to their raid wide ability like the zerkers, sks, monks, and bruisers get (dunno if guards get it). I see a class that is the single and solitary one that gets absolutely NOTHING to mitigate spike damage until they reach their TSO endline ability and even then it is only one physical attack block and it costs way more power than it should for being such a horrendous ability. I see holy touch that costs about 1/10th of the typical paladin's power pool and heals for about the same as the shadowknight's death touch heals them for but without the extra range, without the damage, and they don't even have a power cost on it. I see the paladins who have the worst overall numbers across the board of all tanks including guardians (although by a very very narrow margin) and the only thing that makes up for it is the few abilities they've been threatening to take away for a long time and were very close to actually making good on doing.Why is it so rediculously much to ask that the paladins stop being attacked simply because of the way they were designed? They are supposed to have the best hate at the cost of everything else. They have lost everything else, and now hate is being taken away and with nothing being given back in return. This and this alone is what has upset so many paladins.</blockquote>Very well said. In essence they are retooling us from being "overpowered" within a group setting without thinking of the overall complications. Paladins may look easy to play in a group setting where there is a clear winner on the parse, but they are not easy mode. You can't go afk and grab a beer in a full group (I have gone afk to grab dinner with myself and a healer). Try doing that in a full raid if you are main tank. I would gladly give back our weak hate siphoning abilities for reliable ways to self generate hate so we are on the same level as other tanks. Who out there actually enjoys having to rely on another player to hold aggro? Not me. In a raid setting where your amends target may die and there are other high DPS that aren't far behind them, you are going to have a hard time keeping aggro off of them unless your raid is full of fail and you are somehow near the top 3 for DPS.

Meirril

12-23-2009, 08:34 PM

<cite>TerrorFirmer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Very well said. In essence they are retooling us from being "overpowered" within a group setting without thinking of the overall complications. Paladins may look easy to play in a group setting where there is a clear winner on the parse, but they are not easy mode. You can't go afk and grab a beer in a full group (I have gone afk to grab dinner with myself and a healer). Try doing that in a full raid if you are main tank. I would gladly give back our weak hate siphoning abilities for reliable ways to self generate hate so we are on the same level as other tanks. Who out there actually enjoys having to rely on another player to hold aggro? Not me. In a raid setting where your amends target may die and there are other high DPS that aren't far behind them, you are going to have a hard time keeping aggro off of them unless your raid is full of fail and you are somehow near the top 3 for DPS.</blockquote>In a raid situation every tank is depending on other classes for most of their agro. Not just from agro transfer, but also from other classes buffs that add agro procs, damage procs, damage shields, and reactive abiltiies. Lets also not forget the snap agro abilities of dirges and coercers. Paladins can get away with replacing the swashbuckler in their group with another class that generates more hate because we have our own agro transfer ability. We're more flexable when it comes to building a solid MT group.In situations where our amends partner dies there is a very simple solution. Pick your second best and apply amends again. It isn't a long cast. We're better off that way than any other tank that looses their swashbuckler/assassin. Even throwing amends on a priest is better than totally loosing all agro transfer which is exactly what happens to other tanks in the same situation.

lauraspencer

12-23-2009, 09:09 PM

mispost.

Orthureon

12-23-2009, 09:11 PM

<cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah stupid that they edited it out.Anyways, for whoever is saying SKs are better than Paladins, or Paladins are underpowered... lol get real. BOTH Crusaders are OP, Paladins can hold aggro so easily at present it is silly (I know I was an 80 Paladin for a while). I tested Amends out on my buddy, while I went AFK to get some food. No joke, he said I only lost aggro a few times (this was at level 80).Without the SKs myth they would have a hard time holding aggro imo. Personally betraying from Paladin to SK yielded very little DPS increase. Though I admit I was fully mastered on my pally, whereas I have nearly all ad3s on my SK, however I have much better gear.</blockquote>If that agro "test" really worked that well, then run with better dpsers or try to do it with a group that includes other transfering classes (I.E. a typical pickup group through a shard run). It is true that up until the hate cap the paladins where insanely OP in agro, and it's true that amends still is a potentially very valuable tool, but it is equally true and undenyable that it can be equally as devastating to the paladin's agro control if you get a group that simply doesn't have the right class combination, buffs, or balance in dps to give the top amends candidate the infrequently contested top hate generation spot.If the SK can't hold hate without their myth, they need to reroll. My SK had zero problem at level 35 holding agro against level 40s in a group fighting level 39s, including a warlock and we were chain pulling a good 5-12 mobs at a time. It also didn't have trouble holding agro in karnor's castle in a similar type of chain pulling scenario. I also rarely see an SK have issues in raids or groups. Even the wizzy that was parsing 23k on the named in heroic shard zones was not pulling agro off the sk, and the sk was not quite as well geared.The paladins are not crying to be OPed like the SKs are now, they just simply want to be given fair treatment. The developers from the way they have been behaving appear to be doing everything they can to be unfair to the paladins. I see a class that is the single and solitary one that gains effectively nothing from AA points that boosts their raid wide buff to help others let alone another bonus to their raid wide ability like the zerkers, sks, monks, and bruisers get (dunno if guards get it). I see a class that is the single and solitary one that gets absolutely NOTHING to mitigate spike damage until they reach their TSO endline ability and even then it is only one physical attack block and it costs way more power than it should for being such a horrendous ability. I see holy touch that costs about 1/10th of the typical paladin's power pool and heals for about the same as the shadowknight's death touch heals them for but without the extra range, without the damage, and they don't even have a power cost on it. I see the paladins who have the worst overall numbers across the board of all tanks including guardians (although by a very very narrow margin) and the only thing that makes up for it is the few abilities they've been threatening to take away for a long time and were very close to actually making good on doing.Why is it so rediculously much to ask that the paladins stop being attacked simply because of the way they were designed? They are supposed to have the best hate at the cost of everything else. They have lost everything else, and now hate is being taken away and with nothing being given back in return. This and this alone is what has upset so many paladins.</blockquote>Eh he wasn't a beast parser but he was doing about 7-10k dps with me being AFK. I think anything over 1k dps while someone is AFK and not losing aggro is still stupid. I raided, grouped all of it on my Paladin, aggro was NEVER ONCE an issue, even with some people parsing 15K+ (I know not amazing to the leet people). But in relation it was still more than my parse but I kept aggro with ease.Not sure why people are saying Paladins are weak, a Paladin on my server can solo raid zones, aswell as solo Scion. Crusaders have NO right to complain about ANY changes unless they are extreme. And change to Amends will simply mean you have to taunt... As for Holy Ground, hopefully they will give you some more snaps.

Boethius_Permafrost

12-25-2009, 12:58 PM

I can't understand what you're saying, but I think it was that you have one person who blows away everyone else in the raid for dps, and a paladin to amend that player. That's a really narrow niche with little room for improvement.

Xalmat

12-25-2009, 03:12 PM

Prestissimo

12-27-2009, 06:40 AM

<cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Eh he wasn't a beast parser but he was doing about 7-10k dps with me being AFK. I think anything over 1k dps while someone is AFK and not losing aggro is still stupid. I raided, grouped all of it on my Paladin, aggro was NEVER ONCE an issue, even with some people parsing 15K+ (I know not amazing to the leet people). But in relation it was still more than my parse but I kept aggro with ease.Not sure why people are saying Paladins are weak, a Paladin on my server can solo raid zones, aswell as solo Scion. Crusaders have NO right to complain about ANY changes unless they are extreme. And change to Amends will simply mean you have to taunt... As for Holy Ground, hopefully they will give you some more snaps.</blockquote>One question. Taunt with WHAT taunt? Everything the paladin has is noticeably inferior to all the other fighters for simply and specifically one reason. We have amends. Because of the fact that we have amends, we have been reduced on all other fronts to bring us inline with other fighter's overall output. Currently with all master taunts and with way more than enough aggression and with maximum taunt increases, it puts my paladin at about 345 hate per second via taunts not counting rescues. That is assuming all my taunts hit for their top values though and is a bit more generous than actuality. Never mind my master taunts have a resist rate that varies from 40% to 70%. (Ok, it's actually 40.9% and 72.6%, but you get the point.)Amends IS a double sided sword, and we both benefit and suffer from it. Perceptions that we give up nothing anywhere else for amends is a fallacy that needs to disappear.If you look back, not a single place did any cap level paladin with any form of significant time played and moderate difficulty content under their belt ever say that they did not want amends to go away because it was taking away amends. They always said they do not want amends to be taken away UNLESS everything else is brought back onto the same page as the other tanks have or we are given something else to compensate for the huge loss in agro. The paladins are not crying over amends nerf, they are crying to not be discriminated against yet again and to not continue to be punished even after the offending ability is gone.Holy ground solidifies a paladin's role as the OT. Without utility, without survivability (see paladin section and stonewall if you don't know how bad our survivability really is), without good dps, without effective hate gain as amends is reduced to 3% in most raid settings and other hate generation is inferior respectively, and without something to really make the paladin an effective choice of tank because they have a certain niche of abilities, what does it leave the paladin with to be desired for having? Amends (thanks to transfer caps), holy ground (soon to be gone too at this rate), sigil of heroism (only as good as your group is at generating hate fast and only from those within your group which usually includes one healer more than other average tanking groups). That leaves the entirety of the paladin's desireability to be summed up by one temp ability where as everything else is less desireable than what other tanks bring to the table. The concern is not that the ability is going to be changed, it is that it is one of the main things that makes a paladin desireable and removing it will remove effectively the last reason to pick a paladin over another tank class.I have no problem shedding amends, but if I lose amends, I want survivability to rival the other fighters, some taunts that fail abit less or at minimum match the other fighters, some better dps to compensate for the lost hate from transfers or something to even out the hate as other fighters, and some form of desired utility so that the paladins are not the only fighters with absolutely no group/raid desireable utility. If I lose amends, I simply want to be given back what was taken away for having amends and to be balanced fairly with other fighters. That is a very fair and reasonable to be expected condition.Edit:As for the whole soloing to determine a classes inherrent power:I've seen bruisers solo most shard zones spare guk and PoF and even saw a bruiser duo one of the RoK contested epics. I've seen a zerker solo a colored 4x epic named. I've seen a necro solo the contested epics in bonemire and he 2 boxed temple of scale. I've seen a ranger solo the dino in kunzar. A shadowknight soloed nagafen at one point in time on our server. A SK on my server solos NHT, Bef:CoA, and Kurns regularly. A wizard on my server solos OoA and AoB regularly. My warden tanks Ynoshi in AoB without a suit. Almost anyone can solo things they shouldn't be able to solo if they know how to exploit a classes stregnths and use the proper gear with the exception of most mages since they squish too easily to stand up to the hard hitters. Besides that, how many paladins that JUST hit level 80 do you think can solo epics or scion? Doing such a thing includes good gear, and as it stands if you have good enough gear, anyone can tank which voids out the entire issue other than to ask why it was allowed to get that out of control.

Maamadex

12-27-2009, 02:40 PM

I thought saying you will simply have to taunt now was pretty laughable too.

Mins

12-27-2009, 03:12 PM

<cite>Brigh wrote:</cite><blockquote>The last I played EQ 1 paladin was years ago, but in that game all it took was like one cast of Cease to grab aggro.No need to rely on someone else's DPS. I don't know why the Devs of EQ II decided on the aggro siphon mechanics.</blockquote>EQ1 paladin's had several stuns, that was how we kept agro in EQ1 - how I miss my stuns... <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Maamadex

12-28-2009, 12:13 AM

Yeah well, in EQ 1 sks used to hold aggro with dooming darkness or whatever that snare/dot of theirs was, but the way snares and stuns work nowadays heh...The way paladins and sks used to tank and hold aggro isn't really relevant.

Orthureon

01-02-2010, 07:18 PM

<cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite><blockquote>I thought saying you will simply have to taunt now was pretty laughable too.</blockquote>Laugh all you want, I am not the one crying about potential changes; Also, to a class I AM going to be playing AGAIN soon enough. More gear with +taunt amount, taunt crit and taunt crit bonus, I wonder where theyc ould be going with this?

Maamadex

01-02-2010, 11:37 PM

You probably meant something different, but as I read it it did make me chuckle. If you had said you'll simply have to taunt now AND learn to dps better that'd make sense. Every tank knows that at present actual taunts, especially for crusaders, are a very pathetic fraction of our overall aggro. Same with any fighter. I use them, especially group taunt for debuff, but they have long since needed a boost.

RafaelSmith

01-04-2010, 02:27 PM

<cite>TerrorFirmer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Without holy ground, how are paladins supposed to hold agro on mem wiping mobs that mem wipe REPEATEDLY?</blockquote>Your not suppose to be able to "hold" aggro on mem-wiping mobs. Your suppose to do what the rest of us do.....watch for the wipe then react with a snap or have another fighter pickup the mob.Thats the purpose of mobs having mem-wipe.

Prestissimo

01-04-2010, 07:39 PM

Holy ground does not "hold" agro on mem wipes. It is a snap, and it is designed to allow us to pick up the mob again just as you are saying we are supposed to be doing on mem-wipes.When the paladin lands an attack with holy ground on, it will boost them up to the top of the hate chart in a group or raid alike. The key part of this is when the paladin lands an attack. This means that in order to regain a mem-wiper, we need to hit this ability which has the same casting time as rescue and sneering assault and most snap agros that other tanks get, and THEN we need to land an attack to actually use the ability. If we don't land an attack in the about 15 second absolute maximum durration on holy ground, then we get absolutely zilch from our snap tool. Additionally, we need to be targetting the mob for the possitional increase to happen. The paladins is the only snap that I see out of all the tanks that we must physically ourselves land an attack to have any form of hate gained from our primary snap agro tool.The shadowknight's grave sacrement was so overpowered because it gained more threat for them the more everyone else attacked it. Holy ground was never so overpowered that it singularly upon hitting that button meant that the paladin was the instant top threat to everything in the area nor did it mean than even if everyone else was going full bore dps nuts on the mob that the paladin would be able to hold threat. It simply meant that when that attack landed (and was not blocked, parried, reposted, or any other of the sort) it boosted the paladin to the exact hate that the top of the hate chart had when that attack landed.Understanding this fact is what allowed most paladins to use this to it's highest potential. Just like how other tanks use a possitional increase after a huge attack from someone else ganks agro from them.I don't really care that much if holy ground gets changed, or if it gets replaced by something else equally as viable, but considering that the paladin has very very little hate generating capacity, I would appreciate it if they kept that in mind and kept in mind and that this was the physical means in which paladins made up for that. If the developers are so intent upon taking away the paladin's tools, then just simply replace them with a means to generate our own hate so when our tools fail we aren't sitting there completely s.o.l. due to our incapability of generating raw hate and being forced to manipulate hate.

TerrorFirmer

01-04-2010, 08:46 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>TerrorFirmer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Without holy ground, how are paladins supposed to hold agro on mem wiping mobs that mem wipe REPEATEDLY?</blockquote>Your not suppose to be able to "hold" aggro on mem-wiping mobs. Your suppose to do what the rest of us do.....watch for the wipe then react with a snap or have another fighter pickup the mob.Thats the purpose of mobs having mem-wipe.</blockquote>You watch and react with a snap? Okay, as a paladin my snaps are rescue (gets resisted and only 3 positions, fail), sneering assault (misses half of the time, only 3 positions too I believe, and short range), and holy ground which I have to cast BEFORE I can cast another ability to snap the mob back onto me. So holy ground is not a snap, but holy ground +another ability is. Thus sometimes when fighting mem wiping mobs it is helpful if you can predict the mem wipes and precast holy ground so you can immediately snap the mob back.Now, if the rest of the tanks can just react to a 24 position mem wipe with a "snap" and be okay, I am jealous. Usually what happens is the mob eats alive the next highest person on the hate list, chews through 2-4 more people, and then an offtank might be able to get aggro back on the mobs. Question, have you done the Haladan Enraged fight? There are MULTIPLE encounters that need to be tanked, there are the wolves which mem wipe, Tusker who mem wipes, and I am not sure but I think Haladan might mem wipe as well (I usually tanked the wolves). So just how many tanks do you think we should have in a raid for that fight? How often is rescue up? Because I seem to remember the wolves mem wiping every 3-8 seconds or so.

aislynn00

01-06-2010, 08:55 AM

<cite>TerrorFirmer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>TerrorFirmer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Without holy ground, how are paladins supposed to hold agro on mem wiping mobs that mem wipe REPEATEDLY?</blockquote>Your not suppose to be able to "hold" aggro on mem-wiping mobs. Your suppose to do what the rest of us do.....watch for the wipe then react with a snap or have another fighter pickup the mob.Thats the purpose of mobs having mem-wipe.</blockquote>You watch and react with a snap? Okay, as a paladin my snaps are rescue (gets resisted and only 3 positions, fail), sneering assault (misses half of the time, only 3 positions too I believe, and short range), and holy ground which I have to cast BEFORE I can cast another ability to snap the mob back onto me. So holy ground is not a snap, but holy ground +another ability is. Thus sometimes when fighting mem wiping mobs it is helpful if you can predict the mem wipes and precast holy ground so you can immediately snap the mob back.Now, if the rest of the tanks can just react to a 24 position mem wipe with a "snap" and be okay, I am jealous. Usually what happens is the mob eats alive the next highest person on the hate list, chews through 2-4 more people, and then an offtank might be able to get aggro back on the mobs. </blockquote>First of all, Rescue is the same between all fighter classes, and it is never resisted.Secondly, you have to cast Holy Ground and hit the mob? Boo-hoo for you. Try playing a guardian: First you have to cast Reinforcement, then you have to hit the mob not once but a whopping 23 times to go from 24th place on the hate table to having aggro again. Did I mention that the reuse time of Reinforcement is twice of that of Holy Ground while the duration is the same? Reinforcement is the best guardians have in terms of snap aggro.Thirdly, dealing with hate wipes isn't solely the (off-)tank's responsibility; damage dealers have hate position reducers, which they should make best use of.And finally, what gave you the impression that hate wipes were supposed to be trivialized by buffs like Holy Ground and Grave Sacrament? It was perfectly possible to deal with hate-wiping mobs years before aforementioned two abilities even existed (e.g., Bloodbeast, Lord Vyemm, and Tarinax back in Kingdom of Sky). Yeah, it wasn't always pretty nor trivial, but then again, it was never intended to be.

RafaelSmith

01-06-2010, 11:41 AM

<cite>Karnos@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>TerrorFirmer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>TerrorFirmer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Without holy ground, how are paladins supposed to hold agro on mem wiping mobs that mem wipe REPEATEDLY?</blockquote>Your not suppose to be able to "hold" aggro on mem-wiping mobs.Your suppose to do what the rest of us do.....watch for the wipe then react with a snap or have another fighter pickup the mob.Thats the purpose of mobs having mem-wipe.</blockquote>You watch and react with a snap? Okay, as a paladin my snaps are rescue (gets resisted and only 3 positions, fail), sneering assault (misses half of the time, only 3 positions too I believe, and short range), and holy ground which I have to cast BEFORE I can cast another ability to snap the mob back onto me. So holy ground is not a snap, but holy ground +another ability is. Thus sometimes when fighting mem wiping mobs it is helpful if you can predict the mem wipes and precast holy ground so you can immediately snap the mob back.Now, if the rest of the tanks can just react to a 24 position mem wipe with a "snap" and be okay, I am jealous. Usually what happens is the mob eats alive the next highest person on the hate list, chews through 2-4 more people, and then an offtank might be able to get aggro back on the mobs.</blockquote>First of all, Rescue is the same between all fighter classes, and it is never resisted.Secondly, you have to cast Holy Ground and hit the mob? Boo-hoo for you. Try playing a guardian: First you have to cast Reinforcement, then you have to hit the mob not once but a whopping 23 times to go from 24th place on the hate table to having aggro again. Did I mention that the reuse time of Reinforcement is twice of that of Holy Ground while the duration is the same? Reinforcement is the best guardians have in terms of snap aggro.Thirdly, dealing with hate wipes isn't solely the (off-)tank's responsibility; damage dealers have hate position reducers, which they should make best use of.And finally, what gave you the impression that hate wipes were supposed to be trivialized by buffs like Holy Ground and Grave Sacrament? It was perfectly possible to deal with hate-wiping mobs years before aforementioned two abilities even existed (e.g., Bloodbeast, Lord Vyemm, and Tarinax back in Kingdom of Sky). Yeah, it wasn't always pretty nor trivial, but then again, it was never intended to be.</blockquote>Proper use of Intercede is also very valuable when dealing with mem-wiping mobs. I personally enjoy having to deal with mem-wiping mobs....but only in raids without Crusaders <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Maamadex

01-06-2010, 12:36 PM

We don't even know what they are really doing to holy ground yet, why panic? It says it'll still have a rank increase just not 24 positions. We'll still have it in some form."We are modifying those abilities to generate raw hate, as well as a much more modest rank increase., so that they are still very viable for tanking, but not an automatic pass to the top of the hate list. Additionally both abilities will have other bonuses added to them. We want to make sure these are abilities that the Crusader classes will want to keep on their hotbars."Not that I think sony can always be trusted to redesign something well enough, but it doesn't sound too awful. As far as memwiping mobs, I'm not fond of them but never had signifcant issues before holy ground either. Even with HG, I really used to hate those stupid Nexona adds heh.

TerrorFirmer

01-06-2010, 07:32 PM

<cite>Karnos@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>TerrorFirmer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>TerrorFirmer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Without holy ground, how are paladins supposed to hold agro on mem wiping mobs that mem wipe REPEATEDLY?</blockquote>Your not suppose to be able to "hold" aggro on mem-wiping mobs. Your suppose to do what the rest of us do.....watch for the wipe then react with a snap or have another fighter pickup the mob.Thats the purpose of mobs having mem-wipe.</blockquote>You watch and react with a snap? Okay, as a paladin my snaps are rescue (gets resisted and only 3 positions, fail), sneering assault (misses half of the time, only 3 positions too I believe, and short range), and holy ground which I have to cast BEFORE I can cast another ability to snap the mob back onto me. So holy ground is not a snap, but holy ground +another ability is. Thus sometimes when fighting mem wiping mobs it is helpful if you can predict the mem wipes and precast holy ground so you can immediately snap the mob back.Now, if the rest of the tanks can just react to a 24 position mem wipe with a "snap" and be okay, I am jealous. Usually what happens is the mob eats alive the next highest person on the hate list, chews through 2-4 more people, and then an offtank might be able to get aggro back on the mobs. </blockquote>First of all, Rescue is the same between all fighter classes, and it is never resisted.Secondly, you have to cast Holy Ground and hit the mob? Boo-hoo for you. Try playing a guardian: First you have to cast Reinforcement, then you have to hit the mob not once but a whopping 23 times to go from 24th place on the hate table to having aggro again. Did I mention that the reuse time of Reinforcement is twice of that of Holy Ground while the duration is the same? Reinforcement is the best guardians have in terms of snap aggro.Thirdly, dealing with hate wipes isn't solely the (off-)tank's responsibility; damage dealers have hate position reducers, which they should make best use of.And finally, what gave you the impression that hate wipes were supposed to be trivialized by buffs like Holy Ground and Grave Sacrament? It was perfectly possible to deal with hate-wiping mobs years before aforementioned two abilities even existed (e.g., Bloodbeast, Lord Vyemm, and Tarinax back in Kingdom of Sky). Yeah, it wasn't always pretty nor trivial, but then again, it was never intended to be.</blockquote>Rescue is NOT the same between all fighter classes! For instance, you can spec into higher hate positions for a SK for rescue and can't, at least, for the paladin. Therefore, it is DIFFERENT. Also, don't even get me started with reinforcement. Holy ground is getting nerfed, first of all. Reinforcement is NOT. If you to say that, even with holy ground, mem wiping adds like in the haladan enraged fight are trivialized you are showing your level of true experience. Sure, intercede is good for intercepting some of the damage while you work on getting aggro back, nobody said it wasn't, but it doesn't get aggro back on you.The vast majority of damage dealing classes don't have aggro dumping abilities that can be used every 3-8 seconds. Please point me in the direction of a class that does.Why are you in a paladin thread, anyway? Do you have experience playing one? What about the other guardians and berserkers or whatever that just like to troll every crusader thread started?

Prestissimo

01-08-2010, 05:42 AM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Proper use of Intercede is also very valuable when dealing with mem-wiping mobs. I personally enjoy having to deal with mem-wiping mobs....but only in raids without Crusaders <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I personally enjoy being a paladin... but I only enjoy it when other fighters aren't crying for nerfs and get their way especially when the nerfs they're crying for really are not that nessecary.Sure holy ground is a large amount of possitions to jump and is not nessecary, but paladins have always been the best at manipulating hate. It is what they do and what they have done for a long time. The paladin's hate is only as good as the group/raid's dps combined with the player's ability to manipulate their hate around their party member's hate. It is by no fault of the paladin if they are doing their jobs and if the game has evolved into "moar dps!!1". The only thing the paladins are guilty of doing is using their tools they were given, and because everything else has been taken away, I see it personally as unfair that we are having our only remaining trait being slowly taken away from under us.The paladin has also always been the rulers of tanking many mobs, and the current form of holy ground on beta encourages that role even more so which satisfies me that we're not getting passively nerfed yet again and that someone finally decided to stop trying to pigeon hole us into single target tanking.I'm not saying I want an I win button nor that I want other tanks to be inferrior to the paladin because I don't. I'm also not crying poor paladin. I'm simply saying that holy ground is being brought more into line of what other fighters have which is what they wanted, and our stonewall ability is still our single and solitary straight across damage absorb ability that has been duitifly ignored and is still inferior to all other classes capabilities of absorbing/stopping damage. I'm also saying that in straight across hate generation we have less available to us than most other fighters. I'm also saying that being a tank that lives and dies by our abilities to manipulate hate, and having a grand total of 3% more transfer in most raids that other main tanks recieve, we sure recieve alot more flak than we should recieve for doing our jobs well and for generally marginal gains.I guess it should come as no suprise however since everyone hates the crusaders, and regardless of if it's backed with reason, I'm sure we'll still continue to be attacked by other fighters.

Azurro

02-05-2010, 07:00 PM

With the NDA lifted I can post this now.Sorry I only have the expert version as the beta buffer took all my master level spells away and replaced them with Expert. Duration is 13 seconds On any successful combat or spell attack this spell will cast holy ground on target of attack. Inflicts 653-774 divine damage on target Increases Threat to target by 2,176 – 2,473Applies Holy Ground Increases threat priority of targets in Area of Effect by 1 position Increases Threat to targets in Area of Effect by 3,888 – 4,586 It could have been a lot worse I suppose but it does take our primary means of going from 0 to 100 on the agro meter quickly away. It’s going to have to be seen if there is enough threat here to allow us to recover from a death or agro wipe quickly.

Anurra

02-07-2010, 04:12 PM

I'm ok with the HG nerf overall, especially if there are less mem wiping raid mobs in the game. Otherwise, especially in TSO, it is going to be a pretty bad nerf to us. I hope SoE will retool some of these raid encounters to make them mem wipe less. But most likely, that will not be the case.

Azurro

02-08-2010, 01:48 PM

If they moved the hate position up into the “On Any successful combat or spell attack” part and cut the threat down some I would be happier with it. As it stands it’s not a bad agro tool and does a fair amount of DPS as well. In single group content it should be enough to get from 0 to 100 hate quickly. If not it will put you close enough that a rescue spell will boost you the rest of the way. Even in raids it will probably be enough to get you into the top 10 or so if you use it wisely. The issue is that’s still a bit out of range for getting back to the top hate spot as even both our rescues combined only give use 6 more spots. Needing Rescues to get back to the top hate spot after a mem wipe isn’t really a option either when those wipes are coming every 60 seconds or so. If we were not comparing this spell to the Holy Ground we have currently it would be a pretty nice agro tool. But since it’s replacing what we have now you have to compare the two and for raids there is no way to look at this change as anything less than a nerf. The only silver lining of this change is it makes Holy Ground a viable tool for group and raid agro control when you are already at the top of the hate list and want to stay there.

Buzzing

02-11-2010, 07:44 AM

if your going to cry over having to actually work as an off tank... go play a wizard... just saying

Anurra

02-11-2010, 11:54 AM

<cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>if your going to cry over having to actually work as an off tank... go play a wizard... just saying</blockquote>We aren't crying about having to work as an OT, its that the raid mobs in TSO hit like trucks. When they mem wipe the tank (any tank) they basically turn around and one shot RandomRaidMemberX before you can click HG + CA. It is a cheesy game concept, and doesn't have anything to do with the tank's skill with playing this game. Plus, most times, you get completely dumped to the bottom of the hate list. Even using Rescue + Sneering Assualt + Amends, you cannot climb the hate list back to the top in an acceptable reasonable amount of time (under 20 seconds).On the other hand, I do understand that mem wiping can be an interesting feature in an encounter so you have to come up with ways to deal with it. Great. The problem is that in TSO raiding, that a large portion of raid mobs mem wipe. So it really isn't "an interesting feature" anymore. It is the status quo and how things work.Sounds like you already know this, but maybe other people don't /shrug.Our guild raids with two paladins as MT/OT. We use HG a lot to keep control of these mem wiping raid mobs. We are both very good at what we do. We have helped lead the guild from the beginning of TSO raiding to clearing Tomb and up to A.Sul. So we do have a good idea of how this game works from a raiding perspective (obviously other people who are farther along have more experience, I am not discounting that).And to reply to your comment about playing a Wizard, I do have a Wizard alt!