Idea for helping new players experience the end game early... [Archive]

EverRude

11-25-2009, 07:26 PM

<cite>Kitsune wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not to put a wrench in this idea, but how would any lower player be able to play a L 80 T2 kitted out toon, complete with all the class spells, without having worked their way up and learned how to play the class? Sure L 70 up will prolly be OK. I am assuming this is their first character and they don't already have a L 80 one.I see players who just don't know how to play a Swashie at even lower levels, never mind high ones - they ignore completely their throwing knife skills, which are extremely useful, also many of the AA skills too, like the Walk the Plank set.Their learning curve to get anything out of the experience is going to be huge....Still, as a one-of... meh, could be fun, but I see it being far more useful to those of us already up at the end game trying out a class to see if it lives up to our hopes.</blockquote>They wouldn't have a clue. They'll suck.I can't wait to fire up the healer and watch people die left and right while I try to figure out which is the heal button.Anyone who has ever taking advantage of the buff bot in beta to create an unknown class will know full well the confusion that ensues even for a skill player.Even sub classes of classes you already play at max will be very disorienting.So yeah I aggree with the devil's advocate side as well. This won't work unless the characters we possess are stripped down for simplicity sake. Or some form of guide is created to explain each class present in the encounter instance and what they can do. Probably a both is best. I've got hotkeys that I rarely use. But I do need them sometimes. This dungeon will be a scripted instance. The developers will know what skills are needed and what to leave off in the interest of playability.Another issue I can think of.. hotbars. Will it be necessary to build the hotbars for each class you possess. That'll suck.BTW my other suggestion I had planned to propose. In Guild Wars you can create a decked out max level char for PvP only. What if there was a way to create a limited use character for each account. It can't collect loot or have access to bank slots/storage. Has limited inventory for food, drink, potions...etc. It doesn't earn anything but it is decked out max level, maybe 150 aa, expert spells, and good gear... T1 perhaps. Can only create one per account and only once per week to limit how it perhaps could be abused by someone smarter and more creative than myself.That would give every account and chance to taste end level on any class without it becoming some mule for some nefarious people.

LardLord

11-25-2009, 07:35 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>EQ2 is such a deep game. I just don't see how it would ever work. How could someone fresh to EQ2 ever hope to have a clue what is important without experiencing the growth that occurs as a character levels up?Take for instance my current lowbie, a Coercer. He's level 24. He just got Hostage. It completely changed the way he plays the game. At L22, he got Perpetuality, which at that point changed how he played. I know there are other abilities that will similarly alter his perception of what needs done. I'm sure after taking six prior characters to level 80, that all classes are similar in this respect. The abilities stack on themselves and the curve of growing up with them allows you the time to adjust.You can't condense all that into "Click here to be Level 80" and expect any sort of expertise with the class.Existing players already have a leg up when leveling alts, I don't see how they need more.</blockquote>Maybe just give every player, obviously including new players, the option to create characters with an innate 8-10x exp bonus (AAs too) that is effective up to a certain point (maybe 80/140 or something for TSO). Personally, I've never had much problem playing beta buffed characters after I take 10-30 minutes to examine the abilities, but if the "learning curve" is a concern, an extreme experience bonus could be a solution, since abilities would still be granted incrementally rather than all at once.

DukeOccam

11-25-2009, 07:39 PM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is a cool idea, but a better idea would be to just let us start characters at or near the end game. Leveling alone is by far the worst aspect of this game for players who do not play primarily for solo content, and even with the AA bar and such, the population is too sparse for most players to have significant grouping experiences leveling up (especially with the mentoring system creating a "power leveling" feel more than a real "grouping" feel).</blockquote>I disagree; I have a blast leveling up my alts. There's a huge world out there; why skip it all so you can just get on with running the same instances over and over? I may not represent the majority, but I know I'm not alone either.Since reaching 80 on my main, I'm still having fun, but there are trade-offs. The end game has more grouping/interaction, but is less interesting (IMO). The earlier game is WAY more interesting and varied, but is pretty sparse.I think this idea is pretty interesting, but I'm not sure how easy it would be. Someone already brought it up, but my first concern was about setting up hotbars too. Even the solo shard mission annoys me a little bit...gotta have nuke in 1, DoT in 2, and the stun/nuke in 3 every time! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Maybe an alternative idea is to offer new and attractive rewards for mentoring. /shrug

LardLord

11-25-2009, 07:49 PM

<cite>Caethas@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I disagree; I have a blast leveling up my alts. There's a huge world out there; why skip it all so you can just get on with running the same instances over and over? I may not represent the majority, but I know I'm not alone either.</blockquote>Most certainly not, and for all I know, you may even be the majority. I'm just saying that I know there is a significant number of players who would enjoy EQ2's end game group and raid content, but who don't even reach it, since they don't particularly enjoy solo'ing, which is still the dominate way to level for most players (at least if you don't have a solid group of friends to level up with or to power level you). Unfortunately, the game doesn't really do much to hook players who just generally are not into solo'ing in MMOs.If you could choose the between a "normal" leveling speed and a "super turbo" leveling speed, they could even tweak the curve a bit so that questers don't outlevel their content so quickly, though I guess this isn't really needed now that we have an AA bar.

Deveryn

11-25-2009, 08:16 PM

New players can experience early end game material by getting into shard zones at 50. There are also plenty of dungeons to experience at all levels. No bonuses or special zones need to be added. Any kind of shortcut only results in a player that doesn't know much and ineviably leaves because people can't deal with n00bs.

Brook

11-25-2009, 08:18 PM

I'm not trying to knock your idea but your pretty much talking of adding another game within a game.To me it would seem wiser to look at why new people are becoming bored with the game before reaching max level.Maybe its because there is no real challenge to the game anymore, everyone is given everything without having to work for it now.People can say it was tedium having to camp a mob or find a group to do things, but you know... it didn't kill us, and it was for sure not boring when you had to worry about dying because of the penalties of it.Some people I am sure have real life things that would interfere with having to camp a mob, get a group, hunt for a shard etc... maybe the game is perfect for them now.So really, the game doesn't need anymore changes because contrary to what a lot of people say the end game is not where its at, its the journey there.

Seiffil

11-25-2009, 08:21 PM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>EQ2 is such a deep game. I just don't see how it would ever work. How could someone fresh to EQ2 ever hope to have a clue what is important without experiencing the growth that occurs as a character levels up?Take for instance my current lowbie, a Coercer. He's level 24. He just got Hostage. It completely changed the way he plays the game. At L22, he got Perpetuality, which at that point changed how he played. I know there are other abilities that will similarly alter his perception of what needs done. I'm sure after taking six prior characters to level 80, that all classes are similar in this respect. The abilities stack on themselves and the curve of growing up with them allows you the time to adjust.You can't condense all that into "Click here to be Level 80" and expect any sort of expertise with the class.Existing players already have a leg up when leveling alts, I don't see how they need more.</blockquote>Maybe just give every player, obviously including new players, the option to create characters with an innate 8-10x exp bonus (AAs too) that is effective up to a certain point (maybe 80/140 or something for TSO). Personally, I've never had much problem playing beta buffed characters after I take 10-30 minutes to examine the abilities, but if the "learning curve" is a concern, an extreme experience bonus could be a solution, since abilities would still be granted incrementally rather than all at once.</blockquote>Chances are even with your beta buffed characters you have general understanding of the game ahead of time, that someone new may not have. As banditman said though, there are points where the playstyle of certain classes change completely. Beta Buffing is different because generally it's a more experienced player doing it, who at least knows the basics of the class, versus someone who's new who is just playing a buffed character so they can experience the end game that they want to have to level up to. That and the best methods to play some classes are counter to what someone new would expect, because the RP aspect would seem to dictate one way, while in actuality, it's different.

Kitsune

11-25-2009, 08:25 PM

I agree. EQ2 is the whole journey. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />

Landiin

11-25-2009, 08:25 PM

The reason new people become bored with the game because 1 to 80 is a frakking bor fest.. Not many people play a MMO to solo for 80 levels. Yes it doesn't take long to get to 80 at all, IF you've been playing this game for long or have buddies helping you out. But if you are totally new MMO player or EQ2 Player then /yawn /wrists at this game 1 to 80. They really need to merge some servers so there maybe could possibly be some activity post 80.

bks6721

11-25-2009, 08:25 PM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Caethas@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I disagree; I have a blast leveling up my alts. There's a huge world out there; why skip it all so you can just get on with running the same instances over and over? I may not represent the majority, but I know I'm not alone either.</blockquote>Most certainly not, and for all I know, you may even be the majority. I'm just saying that I know there is a significant number of players who would enjoy EQ2's end game group and raid content, but who don't even reach it, since they don't particularly enjoy solo'ing, which is still the dominate way to level for most players (at least if you don't have a solid group of friends to level up with or to power level you). Unfortunately, the game doesn't really do much to hook players who just generally are not into solo'ing in MMOs.If you could choose the between a "normal" leveling speed and a "super turbo" leveling speed, they could even tweak the curve a bit so that questers don't outlevel their content so quickly, though I guess this isn't really needed now that we have an AA bar.</blockquote>if they get bored and quit trying to level to 80 I bet they'll also quit from boredom even if they start out at 80. If they just want to try out another class at 80 they can buff one up to 80/200 on test_copy server. If they want to BUY an 80 they can do so on an exchange server. That server population isn't doing that well these days either.

bks6721

11-25-2009, 08:30 PM

<cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>The reason new people become bored with the game because 1 to 80 is a frakking bor fest.. Not many people play a MMO to solo for 80 levels. Yes it doesn't take long to get to 80 at all, IF you've been playing this game for long or have buddies helping you out. But if you are totally new MMO player or EQ2 Player then /yawn /wrists at this game 1 to 80. They really need to merge some servers so there maybe could possibly be some activity post 80.</blockquote>those players aren't looking for a game to play long term obviously. eq2 may not be for them.Leveling has never been faster than it is now. We aren't playing a console game that you can level cap in 2 days.

Kigneer

11-25-2009, 08:30 PM

<cite>EverRude wrote:</cite><blockquote>There have been a few threads lately and countless threads in the past about how players trying to level their first chars get frustrated and bored before they reach the end game. I am sure I am not the only one that has played Guild Wars here so this isn't new the some of you. What about giving every account access to an instance that they can zone into and choose one of 6 classes to become. The equipment, spells, CA's and AA are all built to be the equivilant of a T2 / fabled character. You choose to become one of the classes then proceed to complete the instance. The "lore" of the scenario is simple enough. You are asked to possess a group of adventurers currently in some dungeon in the past. Your asked to prevent them from doing again what they did the first time that had really bad results in the current timeline. Now this ofcourse doesn't fix anything but it does allow everyone to play together no matter what class or level they really are. It'll give new players a taste of end level combat (tho clearly not wholly accurate). And it will give everyone a chance to taste combat as another class (assuming they don't already have them all like Atan). No loot. Status perhaps. Faction to buy loot from special NPC's best option IMO. Give the zone some special achievements maybe. But there has to be something to keep chars coming back. Heck this idea could be used for the the holiday events as a test. Like the christmas event last year. Just an idea to allow everyone to play the same content.</blockquote>Wouldn't work. Because the barrier is the level 80 (and in Feburary) level 90.It's a psychological barrier where just thinking about leveling that high to actually meet a top heavy community, is too much for the typical casual.Those power leveling to the top come from other games, like WoW. So the MMO world is basically recycling players. Which is why this market isn't growing. New MMO game and just watch how activity slows as the new game siphons players from other MMOs.This is how EQ2's subscriptions dwindles each year, as it's a slow bleed. For about every 100 that tries another MMO, 25 or so will remain. It adds up over the years.Gamespot had an interesting article that I posted months ago about this very subject. The feedback from the game community there highlights the many complaints gamers have about MMOs. If there was a dime for all the groans about leveling and "Abandoned Lands" MMO devs would be multimillionaires by now. They know it's a problem, but they also stuck with the status quo. The community that's too set in their beliefs ("this is how the game should be!!!!!") and a budget that's not as large as a AAA FPS title to actually strike new ground.Want new players? EQ3 is the only solution. Start off from ground up, with a stream of actual new players (not raiding SCI-FI/Fantasy conventions and marketing to the SciFi and Cartoon Network) with the intention of keeping them (not chasing them away).

LardLord

11-25-2009, 08:39 PM

<cite>Brook wrote:</cite><blockquote>So really, the game doesn't need anymore changes because contrary to what a lot of people say the end game is not where its at, its the journey there.</blockquote>I had a blast leveling my original character, which was an Inquisitor. I wouldn't have continued to play the game if it wasn't fun. Aside from a few solo quests in Barren Sky (and maybe some in Bonemire, not sure), I leveled from 20-70 entirely in groups. If I started playing the game now, I'd quit around level 30 or 40 out of boredom, because I simply don't find solo play in MMOs very compelling.I figure there must be others who would like to get into the game now, but who will not continue playing for that reason. In fact, I know it to be the case from friends who have tried the game, and I've read several posts on these forums written by strangers coming from WoW who are intrigued by the reputation EQ2 has for a deeper combat system (but they likely won't get to experience that until they spend 80+ hours soloing, which they may or may not enjoy).Again, I understand there are a lot of people who love soloing in this game, but I think it would be healthy for the game if players could group without needing to solo for hours and hours first. Likewise, I do not think people should be forced to group or raid in order to be able to enjoy solo content, and I have said so in another thread discussing the level of difficulty for solo mobs.

Kigneer

11-25-2009, 08:45 PM

<cite>Pauly@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Leveling has never been faster than it is now. We aren't playing a console game that you can level cap in 2 days.</blockquote>Fast leveling isn't the solution anyway, because vitality is a built in cap.Instead of a 7 day head start into SF with pre-orders, SoE should have 7 days of no vitality and advertize it like no tomorrow. For the reason folks rush to the end is to stake claims, and new players coming to play are stuck at level 10 and facing a vitality timer (and for the price of vitality pots to rush to 90, it's cheaper to buy the entire Guild Wars series and play).

LardLord

11-25-2009, 08:45 PM

<cite>Pauly@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>if they get bored and quit trying to level to 80 I bet they'll also quit from boredom even if they start out at 80.</blockquote>Why would you say that? The game is hugely different at 80 compared to leveling up. For most players, leveling up is a solo game. At 80, you have a multitude of grouping and raiding options.

Yimway

11-26-2009, 12:36 AM

Landiin

11-26-2009, 01:23 AM

<cite>Pauly@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>The reason new people become bored with the game because 1 to 80 is a frakking bor fest.. Not many people play a MMO to solo for 80 levels. Yes it doesn't take long to get to 80 at all, IF you've been playing this game for long or have buddies helping you out. But if you are totally new MMO player or EQ2 Player then /yawn /wrists at this game 1 to 80. They really need to merge some servers so there maybe could possibly be some activity post 80.</blockquote>those players aren't looking for a game to play long term obviously. eq2 may not be for them.Leveling has never been faster than it is now. We aren't playing a console game that you can level cap in 2 days.</blockquote>Are you on crack? Those people are looking for people to play with. It has nothing to do with them not looking for long term play. If there is no one for you to play with then why would you play that MMO? You will go to one that has people for you to play with. If they wanted to solo they would be playing one of the many single player fantasy games out there.I guess that last paragraph was from the crack..

Pervis

11-26-2009, 02:20 AM

Im not keen on the idea for two reasons. The first is mentioned, that a player will have no idea what they are doing.The second is simply this will become a disincentive to level up. Why spend the time leveling to experiance the end game content when you can just go off and experiance end game content?

PinChaser

11-26-2009, 04:08 AM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pauly@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>if they get bored and quit trying to level to 80 I bet they'll also quit from boredom even if they start out at 80.</blockquote>Why would you say that? The game is hugely different at 80 compared to leveling up. For most players, leveling up is a solo game. At 80, you have a multitude of grouping and raiding options.</blockquote>see thats the problem. leveling up shouldn't be a solo game, it's an MMO for chrissake. There needs to be a better balance of soloing and grouping throughout all level ranges. Launch relied too much on groups, now it's not enough.

Deveryn

11-26-2009, 07:30 AM

<cite>PinChaser wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pauly@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>if they get bored and quit trying to level to 80 I bet they'll also quit from boredom even if they start out at 80.</blockquote>Why would you say that? The game is hugely different at 80 compared to leveling up. For most players, leveling up is a solo game. At 80, you have a multitude of grouping and raiding options.</blockquote>see thats the problem. leveling up shouldn't be a solo game, it's an MMO for chrissake. There needs to be a better balance of soloing and grouping throughout all level ranges. Launch relied too much on groups, now it's not enough. </blockquote>Great news! It isn't a solo game. Problem solved.Yes, it sucks to have to solo a lot of the time, but at least that option is available. People need to learn to just deal with it and get moving because this kind of thing will happen in any MMO. People seem to be forgetting about the biggest hurdles, which have nothing to do with the game: TIME and Time zones. Everyone's on different schedules and has limited time. Getting someone into that end game content sooner isn't going to help anything. They're still going to have that schedule problem that will keep them from joining in on a lot of content. If people want to group so badly, they're going to have to put forth the extra effort to find people with similar schedules. There's nothing the devs can do to help here.

Seidhkona

11-26-2009, 01:25 PM

Please gods, have mercy on the players out there and never allow this idea to be implemented.A person who goes to eBay and purchases a level 80 character kitted out in all fabled raidgear already is a reality. And the person playing that toon has NO IDEA AT ALL how to play that character well, and may not even understand basic stuff about the game. They are a [Removed for Content]' disaster when you get them in a group with you!If a player has to level a character themselves, then they at least have some rudimentary idea of what the various spells are, what they do, and when to use them. And they understand basic game mechanics because they've played with them for 80 levels.I absolutely do not want some dilettante essentially buying a level 80 toon then being unleashed on the rest of us.Why do people keep asking for the honking big red EASY BUTTON? If you don't want to play the game, why are you playing the game?

Tabris93

11-26-2009, 01:46 PM

I'm a MMO-noob, so I thought I'd chime in with my two cents. I just subscribed to EQ2 after trying the trial for two weeks, and have been playing this game for about three weeks now. To me, soloing is probably what I will do the most of in this game. The reason is that I am busy with uni work and other real-life things, and so I don't want to have too many obligations with groups or guilds waiting for me to play. I need the freedom to play whenever I want and how long I want, especially now in the time of exams. Thus it wouldn't be fair for me to join a long-time group/guild when they can't rely on me to be there x times a week.Solo-games is what I am used to, and so even though I think it's awesome to do some short-time grouping when needed, I don't mind exploring on my own at all. I am not impatiently waiting to reach L 80, I am just thoroughly enjoying the experience of questing, levelling, developing my character and exploring the world. I read an old article about EQ2 not being solo-friendly over L 30, and that most quest above that level are group quests and dungeon diving. Is that true?

Trellium

11-26-2009, 02:06 PM

<cite>Sigrdrifa@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please gods, have mercy on the players out there and never allow this idea to be implemented.A person who goes to eBay and purchases a level 80 character kitted out in all fabled raidgear already is a reality. And the person playing that toon has NO IDEA AT ALL how to play that character well, and may not even understand basic stuff about the game. They are a [Removed for Content]' disaster when you get them in a group with you!If a player has to level a character themselves, then they at least have some rudimentary idea of what the various spells are, what they do, and when to use them. And they understand basic game mechanics because they've played with them for 80 levels.I absolutely do not want some dilettante essentially buying a level 80 toon then being unleashed on the rest of us.Why do people keep asking for the honking big red EASY BUTTON? If you don't want to play the game, why are you playing the game?</blockquote>Not only that, but they can make a character on Test-Copy and look for Moosh to get them to level 80 and 200 AA's plus gear. If they are just dying to experience end game, they have an option there.And to others, just because its an MMO doesn't mean all of those MM people are there to play with you. They are split by server, and zone, and level, and alignment (in the early levels). If you want to talk to people, every single server has level chat channels, but why does everyone need ot be there to group with you as well?Join a server, make friends, find out what level they are and target that. Or have them mentor. Or play with them on their alts. There are many solutions available.Personally, I think that if you are the type that really needs friends to enjoy a game that it is your responsibility to bring freinds into the game as well. If you are new, find a friend in real life who also wants to try it out.

axl_2baz

11-26-2009, 02:06 PM

That's not true since at last 2 years ...This game is soloable all the way to cap, and quite rapidly. When EQ2 was launched, it was around 5-6 months to get to cap (50 at the time). Now, it's 5-6weeks to get to the cap (80) ...So I don't see any need to make things even quicker.

Yimway

11-26-2009, 02:59 PM

<cite>Trellium wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not only that, but they can make a character on Test-Copy and look for Moosh to get them to level 80 and 200 AA's plus gear. If they are just dying to experience end game, they have an option there.</blockquote>No, they don't, cause there is no one there to do the content with.Players are 'dieing' to play with other players. It isn't right to penalize them from that cause in *this* game multiplayer activities are heavily biased to the end tier / cap.The premise is, there is nothing they can do to make mentoring down more appealing that players will do so regularly to group with strangers, that if the reverse was possible, you'd take a 'sidekicked' 6th group member when your having trouble finding a 6th.I know I'd take a sidekicked healer, enchanter, or bard if I was having trouble filling any of those slots for a generic pug.Yes, it might mean we'd have to explain a few basic mechanics to the player, but we'd know that going in.

bks6721

11-26-2009, 03:20 PM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pauly@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>if they get bored and quit trying to level to 80 I bet they'll also quit from boredom even if they start out at 80.</blockquote>Why would you say that? The game is hugely different at 80 compared to leveling up. For most players, leveling up is a solo game. At 80, you have a multitude of grouping and raiding options.</blockquote>Yes its way too hard, thats why most people have several 80's. Anyone thinking its too hard or boring probably won't be much of an asset at level 80.Would you like to know the REAL solution? Go group with someone who is between 1-79. Quit telling them to solo.another point. Raiding and grouping at 80 is not "the game". The game is 1-80, soon to be 1-90.

bks6721

11-26-2009, 03:27 PM

<cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pauly@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>The reason new people become bored with the game because 1 to 80 is a frakking bor fest.. Not many people play a MMO to solo for 80 levels. Yes it doesn't take long to get to 80 at all, IF you've been playing this game for long or have buddies helping you out. But if you are totally new MMO player or EQ2 Player then /yawn /wrists at this game 1 to 80. They really need to merge some servers so there maybe could possibly be some activity post 80.</blockquote>those players aren't looking for a game to play long term obviously. eq2 may not be for them.Leveling has never been faster than it is now. We aren't playing a console game that you can level cap in 2 days.</blockquote>Are you on crack? Those people are looking for people to play with. It has nothing to do with them not looking for long term play. If there is no one for you to play with then why would you play that MMO? You will go to one that has people for you to play with. If they wanted to solo they would be playing one of the many single player fantasy games out there.I guess that last paragraph was from the crack..</blockquote>I look for people to play with and I find them. The game should not just hand levels to you because you can't be bothered PLAYING it yourself.I can find a group any time I choose and I am not in a big guild. If my antisocial characters can do it why can't you?

bks6721

11-26-2009, 03:33 PM

<cite>Tabris93 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm a MMO-noob, so I thought I'd chime in with my two cents. I just subscribed to EQ2 after trying the trial for two weeks, and have been playing this game for about three weeks now. To me, soloing is probably what I will do the most of in this game. The reason is that I am busy with uni work and other real-life things, and so I don't want to have too many obligations with groups or guilds waiting for me to play. I need the freedom to play whenever I want and how long I want, especially now in the time of exams. Thus it wouldn't be fair for me to join a long-time group/guild when they can't rely on me to be there x times a week.Solo-games is what I am used to, and so even though I think it's awesome to do some short-time grouping when needed, I don't mind exploring on my own at all. I am not impatiently waiting to reach L 80, I am just thoroughly enjoying the experience of questing, levelling, developing my character and exploring the world. I read an old article about EQ2 not being solo-friendly over L 30, and that most quest above that level are group quests and dungeon diving. Is that true?</blockquote>That article is no longer true. Leveling solo is easy now, it may take some time but it is now the preferred method as it seems to offer the best exp and aa over time. There are many dungeon group quests to do while leveling but a lot of people are skipping them in their RUSH to 80.

RedneckHippy

11-26-2009, 03:38 PM

Nope. Not a good idea.This idea is whats wrong with the gaming community today as it is. People want EVERYTHING and they want it NOW.Personally, I am getting sick and tired of people whining cause they have to put in a little efoort in order to recieve some reward. Every Class whines and then that class gets overpowered(aka the Shadow Knight). What it does is inadvertently nerf the other classes. Or they whine that its too hard. So Sony makes it easy mode, or links every thing to Raiding.Too many now are using Shiny Collections to power level thier character and then have no clue on how to play the class. So they whine and it starts all over againI'm not saying that SOE is perfect, but the whole idea of classes is supposed to give every player a unique nich/role in a group and/or Raid. What it has become, due to whining, is that every class wants the ability to tank,heal,dps. Taking away the uniqueness of characters. If thats they way Sony wants to go, then they should do away with classes all together and allow each character to pick from every single ability out there as they level up. That would allow people to create "Pure" Classes or Hybrid ones.

brightwhite

11-26-2009, 05:55 PM

<a name="5166817">Re:Idea for helping new players experience the end game early..</a>What? They don't get to experience end game early. They get to experience end game when they earn their way to 80 like the rest of us. Why in the world would we let anyone experience endgame early. That would be like a slap in the face to our hard work and accomplishments. Yes 80 and soon 90 levels is a build mountain to climb/grind, but that's the fun of MMO's!!

PinChaser

11-26-2009, 06:04 PM

<cite>brightwhite wrote:</cite><blockquote><a name="5166817">Re:Idea for helping new players experience the end game early..</a>What? They don't get to experience end game early. They get to experience end game when they earn their way to 80 like the rest of us. Why in the world would we let anyone experience endgame early. That would be like a slap in the face to our hard work and accomplishments. Yes 80 and soon 90 levels is a build mountain to climb/grind, but that's the fun of MMO's!!</blockquote>mountain? it's a hill now. the climb to the cap used to be a mountain, now it's a slight jog uphill. and before you used to find many many players at different levels on that mountain, now everyones at the peak of the hill.

Kigneer

11-26-2009, 06:49 PM

<cite>Tabris93 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I read an old article about EQ2 not being solo-friendly over L 30, and that most quest above that level are group quests and dungeon diving. Is that true?</blockquote>The mess EQ2 today is in is due to their history of being a group/raid preferred game. When EQ2 launched it stressed this, and with the population at the time they could do so. SoE and player base stressed it wasn't solo friendly (MUD mentality).2009, WoW has siphoned most MMO players; and the internet has changed so drastically since 2004 that casual gaming is the most popular playstyle now. So popular, most playing EQ2 are playing it for anything but to group/raid and kill for things. Last night I encountered a player in a rush to design a house layout for someone. Has a fast deadline and needing oodles of rares and items. You could tell this is what that person loved doing, and loving to have guided tours, too. This game now has paid decorators running around making player homes look like something from The Sims!EQ2 has become so much more since those old articles, the game is now a mixture of playstyles and persuits.

Tehom

11-26-2009, 06:50 PM

<cite>Tabris93 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Solo-games is what I am used to, and so even though I think it's awesome to do some short-time grouping when needed, I don't mind exploring on my own at all. I am not impatiently waiting to reach L 80, I am just thoroughly enjoying the experience of questing, levelling, developing my character and exploring the world. I read an old article about EQ2 not being solo-friendly over L 30, and that most quest above that level are group quests and dungeon diving. Is that true?</blockquote>Naw. That was true for a brief period after the game's release, but it hasn't been true for years now. Particularly since the release of the Echoes of Feydwer expansion, they've had viable/strong solo-paths all the way to max level. A pretty frequent question is recommendations on which path to take, and there's several viable alternatives.

LardLord

11-26-2009, 11:22 PM

<cite>PinChaser wrote:</cite><blockquote>see thats the problem. leveling up shouldn't be a solo game, it's an MMO for chrissake. There needs to be a better balance of soloing and grouping throughout all level ranges. Launch relied too much on groups, now it's not enough. </blockquote>Of course, but I'm not sure population is high enough for players to find groups to level with consistently, even if the game did "balance" it better (or even if they pushed everyone to groups, honestly). Maybe if they could work cross-server grouping or something...I can understand how providing a quicker path to end game might threaten the "MMO self-esteem" of some players, but the change could be worth that cost, in the same way that gradually nerfing the hardest raid content is worth threatening the "MMO self-esteem" of hardcore raiders.I could think of other solutions that might be received better by the existing player base (cross-server grouping might do the trick, honestly), but I can't think of anything that would be easy from a development point of view that is better than just allowing a "turbo" leveling speed.And before everyone rushes to post how there is no problem that needs solving: If you were one of the people who did have a problem with EQ2's solo leveling, you most likely would have quit the game already. That doesn't mean the developers shouldn't try to tap into all the players who would enjoy the grouping (and/or raiding) at end game but are turned away by the (more-or-less) forced ~80+ hours of solo'ing to start the game.

bks6721

11-27-2009, 01:28 AM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PinChaser wrote:</cite><blockquote>see thats the problem. leveling up shouldn't be a solo game, it's an MMO for chrissake. There needs to be a better balance of soloing and grouping throughout all level ranges. Launch relied too much on groups, now it's not enough. </blockquote>Of course, but I'm not sure population is high enough for players to find groups to level with consistently, even if the game did "balance" it better (or even if they pushed everyone to groups, honestly). Maybe if they could work cross-server grouping or something...I can understand how providing a quicker path to end game might threaten the "MMO self-esteem" of some players, but the change could be worth that cost, in the same way that gradually nerfing the hardest raid content is worth threatening the "MMO self-esteem" of hardcore raiders.I could think of other solutions that might be received better by the existing player base (cross-server grouping might do the trick, honestly), but I can't think of anything that would be easy from a development point of view that is better than just allowing a "turbo" leveling speed.And before everyone rushes to post how there is no problem that needs solving: If you were one of the people who did have a problem with EQ2's solo leveling, you most likely would have quit the game already. That doesn't mean the developers shouldn't try to tap into all the players who would enjoy the grouping (and/or raiding) at end game but are turned away by the (more-or-less) forced ~80+ hours of solo'ing to start the game.</blockquote>When I heal a tank in PoF I want him to have some serious hours of experience behind the wheel of that character. I have no desire at all to try and heal a tank that was rolled yesterday.If a new player wants to only raid and group at end game they still need to spend some time in game to familiarize themselves with zone layout and game mechanics.I'm sure at some point we've all seen the 70 Guardian ask in level chat "How do I get to the Commonlands?" and just roll our eyes. This game cannot be learned in two days by a new player.

LardLord

11-27-2009, 02:58 AM

<cite>Pauly@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>When I heal a tank in PoF I want him to have some serious hours of experience behind the wheel of that character. I have no desire at all to try and heal a tank that was rolled yesterday.</blockquote>I couldn't care less if the Guardian had several months of experience playing the game solo if he had never been in a real, non-power-leveled group before. A Guardian who is entirely new to grouping is going to struggle in PoF whether he has spent the time solo'ing to level cap or not. I don't understand why people would insist that anyone they might happen to invite to a group would need to have 80+ hours of playtime logged, especially if that playtime is in a different playstyle. As someone else wrote, each class takes, at most, around 90 minutes for motivated players to learn. Unmotivated players will never learn to play a class very well, no matter how much time they spend.Heck, grouping and soloing play differently enough that, not only might a proficient soloer struggle in groups (especially tanks and healers), but a proficient "grouper" might struggle to solo (especially mages). And learning the relevant zone layout for someone wishing to group at end game takes almost no time at all. Everyone has to learn where the new zones are with each new expansion, and it's not an issue (certainly takes far less than 80 hours...). When I PuG, it's not uncommon for someone to ask how to get to the target zone, and it's easy to get them there. Most of the zones are irrelevant at end game, and it's not as if a new player who doesn't know their way around Rivervale or Bonemire is going to ruin the gaming experience for anyone they're grouped with in Deep Forge.

Mythanote

11-27-2009, 03:06 AM

PinChaser

11-27-2009, 03:35 AM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote> but a proficient "grouper" might struggle to solo (especially mages). i had this problem when the big DoF CU happened, and to some extent still have problems with this. But originally my Illy was buff-bot ahoy and could barely solo out of a paperbag. I never really have fully adjusted from that, a year of getting 1 playstyle learned and then I have to try and change. </blockquote>

Landiin

11-27-2009, 03:37 AM

<cite>Pauly@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pauly@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>The reason new people become bored with the game because 1 to 80 is a frakking bor fest.. Not many people play a MMO to solo for 80 levels. Yes it doesn't take long to get to 80 at all, IF you've been playing this game for long or have buddies helping you out. But if you are totally new MMO player or EQ2 Player then /yawn /wrists at this game 1 to 80. They really need to merge some servers so there maybe could possibly be some activity post 80.</blockquote>those players aren't looking for a game to play long term obviously. eq2 may not be for them.Leveling has never been faster than it is now. We aren't playing a console game that you can level cap in 2 days.</blockquote>Are you on crack? Those people are looking for people to play with. It has nothing to do with them not looking for long term play. If there is no one for you to play with then why would you play that MMO? You will go to one that has people for you to play with. If they wanted to solo they would be playing one of the many single player fantasy games out there.I guess that last paragraph was from the crack..</blockquote>I look for people to play with and I find them. The game should not just hand levels to you because you can't be bothered PLAYING it yourself.I can find a group any time I choose and I am not in a big guild. If my antisocial characters can do it why can't you?</blockquote>Hmm I have never said hand any one anything.On my server if you look for a group in the level range 1-80 then you'll be SOL. I am glad you are on a server where there is grouping available between 1-80, however on most servers it is not. Yes You can solo to 80 and you should be able to. My point is for new people getting to 80 isn't quite as easy as you and me getting to 80. We know the hot spots, we know what fan sites to look at. A totally new person does not know this. So if there where groups around for them to group with they would lean the game and wow make friends easier. The servers are so barren of people 1-80 on most servers grouping is not a viable option, only soloing.SOE just needs to bite the bullet and merge some servers. Start encouraging grouping more but not cut out the solo path. The more you group the more you build friendships, the more friendships you have the happier you are, the happier you are the more loyal you are, the more loyal you are the longer you stay with a game.

Babayaaga

11-27-2009, 11:20 AM

What is "End Game" in your mind?To me, it has always been similar to levelling, except that instead of a set of 2 digits increasing, it becomes something else, such as AA's increasing (transparent), and gear increasing in quality so that I can do harder things.This is a quality to MMOs that I've always preferred over other types of games. You start at level 1, know nothing about the class that you are playing, but while levelling you gain access to new abilities at a pace designed to help you improve knowledge of your class over a period of time. While I do agree 80 levels of it is a bit much at the moment versus the rate of change of a class (rinse and repeat the same spells just "better" for the most part), I do think this element should be there to some degree.The introduction of AA's do help with the potential "boredom" associated with levelling by introducing a new element of change while a character grows.Once a character reaches 80, instead of levelling your character, in my mind, you level through content. A group of players fresh to 80 wearing Mastercrafted gear, or maybe T1 Shard gear would find instances a challenge that a similar group wearing T4 armour would find a breeze. Ordinarily, there would be two reasons for this... if they "earned" their way through T1-T4 content, they would gain the experience that makes them better prepared for T4 content, and the rewards they earn along the way better prepare them for those challenges (higher stakes, higher risk).A very big problem right now, is that you find players "with" T4 gear that are still finding these instances a challenge, and I attribute this to the fact that players can "buy" T4 gear through the purchase of looting rights from players who obtain things then sell them off in public channels. This is particularly discouraging for players who have played through this content and earned said gear in their own right, but are unfortunate to group with people who buy their gear without learning the lower tiered zones and how to better play their class in these challenges as they become more complex.When you take this "scaling" of content at 80 away, the game becomes boring. There is a massive amount of evidence supporting this in game right now at 80. I logged on last night and was discouraged to hear players in public chat channels asking to "buy looting rights from... insert T4 instance here ". People aren't just selling raid loot now, it has changed player behaviour to the point where many just don't play through content anymore... Players actually sit around now in Guild Halls watching chat channel spam for raid loot, rather than doing it themselves. How fun is that for people who want to put raids together and experience that content? Not.The only raid zones that people do actually put effort forth into right now are Mythical timeline zones, and I don't think there's any mystery as to why that is. Guilds that can farm the loot out of there to sell will be more profitable doing T4 zones instead (since the rewards are better), and as a result, players wanting to obtain their Mythical Weapons are forced to raid that content. I do still see guilds selling "Myth Updates", but not nearly as often as before... it's actually easier to sell T4 loot because you don't need to [Removed for Content] your raid by having ill prepared classes present on your raid.When you remove the tiered process to MMO's, that is to say, the element of levelling... be it the number associated with your character, or post level cap the necessity for experience and difficulty in obtaining rewards... the game becomes "gimped", and players will come and go a lot faster than they would if they had to work their way through content. True boredom comes from blowing through content too quickly, and/or too early. Period.The one thing I do see from the original post here though, is perhaps a need for more "raid like" content at lower levels that people would be encouraged to mentor down to. The Shard of Love was very popular simply because the appearance items were quite coveted, and this is a zone that could quite easily be mentored to become to accessible to lower levels. Because rewards were appearance only, the content didn't become "unbalanced" by making it accessible to players earlier than necessary.In summary, people don't need to become "instantly uber" to enjoy or even want to do lower level content. Mentoring is already part of the game, perhaps people need more incentive to actually do it.

LardLord

11-27-2009, 02:29 PM

<cite>Babayaaga@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>When you remove the tiered process to MMO's, that is to say, the element of levelling... be it the number associated with your character, or post level cap the necessity for experience and difficulty in obtaining rewards... the game becomes "gimped", and players will come and go a lot faster than they would if they had to work their way through content. True boredom comes from blowing through content too quickly, and/or too early. Period.</blockquote>Certainly progression is an extremely important part of EQ2 and most other MMOs. However, most expansions are designed almost entirely around end game content. They add enough content and enough progression to keep people who had progressed to the highest point in the game prior to the expansion busy until the next expansion hits. If expansions are good enough to keep veteran players busy, why not give new players the option to start at the beginning of the latest expansion? (EDIT: Or the option to reach the beginning of the latest expansion much more quickly, at least?)

Yimway

11-27-2009, 03:02 PM

Kigneer

11-28-2009, 11:54 AM

<cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>SOE just needs to bite the bullet and merge some servers. Start encouraging grouping more but not cut out the solo path. The more you group the more you build friendships, the more friendships you have the happier you are, the happier you are the more loyal you are, the more loyal you are the longer you stay with a game.</blockquote>Yep.Server mergers are needed just to increase the possibility of finding groups.Was startled someone wanted to go into EH last night FOR TRADESKILLING BOOKS -- W00t! -- only been there once half a year ago and tried hard to remember what's done, as no one else knew (okay, Defiance you got my thanks on that one). But zones like that require at least a group to even survive past the front door. If you're not geared and have a good group, forget even trying.More players = more groups = more chances of going into those unique little used zones. If there's barely anyone on when you're on, it's barren and v-e-r-y difficult to find groups/raids even if your friend's list is a mile long -- they simply not online.

Rijacki

11-28-2009, 12:18 PM

<cite>Babayaaga@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Mentoring is already part of the game, perhaps people need more incentive to actually do it.</blockquote>What more incentives need to be provided?<ol><li>If you mentor another player's character the mentoree gets a bonus to XP. The mentorer gets a bonus to AA gain for killing things that give AA.</li><li>There are quests to go back and do lower level content in a mentor state.</li><li>Anyone can 'self mentor' by going to a chronomage.</li></ol><div>BTW, all those benefits to mentoring were requested by players. So, if you have more ideas on how to make mentoring even more attractive, I'm sure it would be considered.</div>

Babayaaga

11-30-2009, 03:08 PM

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Babayaaga@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Mentoring is already part of the game, perhaps people need more incentive to actually do it.</blockquote>What more incentives need to be provided?<ol><li>If you mentor another player's character the mentoree gets a bonus to XP. The mentorer gets a bonus to AA gain for killing things that give AA.</li><li>There are quests to go back and do lower level content in a mentor state.</li><li>Anyone can 'self mentor' by going to a chronomage.</li></ol><div>BTW, all those benefits to mentoring were requested by players. So, if you have more ideas on how to make mentoring even more attractive, I'm sure it would be considered.</div></blockquote>Bonus XP and being able to go back and do grey quests is great, but what we're talking about is giving level 80 players an appealing reason to want to go back and do those things instead of other things that currently fulfill their primary objectives.There's many different things to do when you reach level 80, but aspects of the game that are common objectives include 2 primary goals:<ul><li>improving one's gear</li><li>reaching 200 AAs</li></ul>Running shard instances every day are popular because they provide for both of these things very efficiently. This is why the larger bulk of the level 75+ player population spend the majority of their time running these same instances and quests over, and over... and have abandoned all other content.Currently, mentoring will help someone reach 200 AAs, but once that has been achieved, only one goal remains. Mentoring does not affect the second goal at all... which is improving one's gear.In fact, I find that once a player has reached 200 AAs (or is very close to it), they actually prefer "not" to play that character unless it is to farm shards or rewards for Alts, or improve their own gear, because they don't want to "waste" potential AAs on activities that would harm their getting more AAs in the future (when more AAs are added). This actually discourages developed characters from mentoring, rather than encourage it.This is where the idea of adding shard value rewards (instead of the standard quest reward) for completing certain quest chains (not individual quests), or by killing a particular series of bosses in older zones (perhaps killing all bosses in a run = 2 shards) would come into play. This would absolutely provide incentive for 80s to go back and do (or redo) older content. It would also liven up some of the old world dungeons.Imagine if running the entire prismatic weapon quest series provided a large quantity of shards (say 20), as well as a prismatic item for their appearance slot? I am amazed how many post-kunark players have never even seen or done the raid zones associated with this content... it was a good quest! (Long... but fun!)Currently, there just isn't enough incentive for level 75+ players to do any of this older content, because bonus AA experience just isn't enough to encourage players to do old content versus other more profitable means of achieving the same result. Ask yourself, why would players want to run old content mentored just to get bonus AA, when they get fantastic AA development plus shards that they need for current upgrades as well as the potential of useful legendary and fabled drops... and the potential master spell drops? Additional AA is nothing compared to that potential.You see other phenominons borne out of this as well... such as advanced guilds not wanting to recruit lower level players. If there was a valid reason for players to include lower level players in regular activities designed for all levels of gameplay, the game would be a lot more fun and appealing for newer players because having them would be a benefit, rather than a detriment to older, more developed players and guilds.

EverRude

11-30-2009, 04:35 PM

Dahum....I suggest an instance where characters of any level could take possession of a maxed out char and some of you guys start screaming "ezbutton."At my most extreme I mention I had considered the potential of having access to a moderately equipped max level character that couldn't even loot. After some thought even I realize this system wouldn't be workable because of the learning curve involved to be able to use such characters as a true newb. But in neither case did I suggest anything that truly skipped content or allowed new players to start a maxed character they didn't earn. Atan mentioned the sidekick system. That's more along the lines of what I was thinking for the level 80 limited char. Atleast sidekick would avoid having to learn any new skills and such. Such a character would simply be [Removed for Content] with access to whatever skills and AA they had to start with. If they want to be more powerful they still have to level and earn AA. Either way I'm certainly not asking for ezmode. An easier learning curve wouldn't go amiss. The opportunity to play content (in a limited capacity) actually being played by a majority of the playerbase would be fun as well. I just think new players might actually enjoy seeing where the "massively" takes place in EQ2.

Kendricke

11-30-2009, 05:58 PM

<cite>Babayaaga@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>In fact, I find that once a player has reached 200 AAs (or is very close to it), they actually prefer "not" to play that character unless it is to farm shards or rewards for Alts, or improve their own gear, because they don't want to "waste" potential AAs on activities that would harm their getting more AAs in the future (when more AAs are added). This actually discourages developed characters from mentoring, rather than encourage it.</blockquote>What do you waste? You don't waste discovery experience once you hit 200AA. Exploring a new area at 200AA won't trigger any AAXP. Once the level increases on AA, you can go back to any new areas and you'll still get the discovery. The same thing happens with named AA bonuses. Once you hit 200AA, you stop earning AA bonuses for killing new named. That bonus will be waiting for you when the limit on AA increases again. As far as quests go, just don't turn them in. As far as awarding large numbers of shards for hitting old content, that's a non-starter for me. I could blow through the entire prismatic quest in a night. If you allow for mentoring (or chronomagic) to give out "20 shards" for the "entire" prismatic quest, there's nothing stopping an raidforce of 24 vastly overpowered level 50's from just steamrolling the content. In fact, why stop at level 50 - mentor to 55 or 58 and you can destroy the quest line even faster. That content was balanced around a time when the 12 power regeneration on the Prismatic Weapons was considered incredible and there were no AA or set bonuses. A couple of groups in T2 mentored down are so ridiculously overpowered that it's almost ludicrous to consider such content as even close to meaningful in any real way.You won't encourage players to mentor strangers in this way. You'll simply provide more options and rewards for guilds which don't need the mentoring incentives in the first place. As far as offering better gear at those low levels, again we're faced with the Harclave fallacy. Players will always look to maximize their rewards for a minimal outlay of effort. If you provide players with an unlimited ability to go back to old content with characters that are overpowered for the content, they're absolutely going to do it. Oh sure, you may want to set up the content to encourage mentoring of new players and strangers, but the game mechanics allow for self-mentoring, level locking of alts, and any number of other triggers which allow for players to steamroll over the content faster and more efficiently. Just this weekend, several members of my guild helped one of our newer members who was levelling up a new brigand to help the guild out. We put together an AE heavy powerlevel group in minutes and within just a few hours we'd steamrolled his character through Runnyeye a few times (and associated instances), Deathfist Citadel, a few runs around Feerrott, Obelisk of Lost Souls, and Cazic Thule. He started at level 31. Within 3 hours he was halfway through level 40 (and that's after we told him to switch his AA bar to 30-40%). We absolutely decimated those dungeons. We were pulled two rooms at a time and killing everything. We didn't even stop to loot anything. I felt bad because we rolled over a couple of at-level groups when we did this. We were on a mission, though, so we just kept moving. We cut a swath of high level destruction through any area we touched. Now, imagine encouraging that sort of onslaught on a grand scale.

Kitsune

11-30-2009, 06:02 PM

New players might, but honestly, how many higher players would offer to babysit a noob with a L 80 toon that they have no idea of how to play? Now add in the odds of a noob finding someone of the same class and level, or who has an alt of the class and level, and is willing to do that... Not good odds.I really think there is very little chance, IF this was implimented, of them getting anyone to help. And then, it wouldn't be Massive... You cannot take a noob on a high level run when they have no idea what to do and will only be really dead weight, and may even cause the group to wipe, or pretty certainly fail at their objective. Imagine such a person on a L 80 Shard run, for instance.The most you would get is one higher level willing to take them out on a simple run.. I'm thinking of places I go at L 80. I suppose picking off the odd rhino or what not in JW could be done, but again you have another problem. No Sokokar quest done, so no safe travel. Same with the cannon to the Moors, and Druid Rings, and so on.There are problems in spades with this idea when you really start to look at it.

Seidhkona

11-30-2009, 06:21 PM

I don't think I can express any more strongly how wretched I find this idea.If people want to see what end game looks like, they can <a href="http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=T8s&q=site:youtube.com+eq2&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=uDEUS-7aJsG0tgfg7eSsCQ&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=3&ved=0CCYQqwQwAg#q=site%3Ayoutube.com+eq2&hl=en&emb=0&client=firefox-a&start=10&view=2&qvid=site%3Ayoutube.com+eq2&vid=-1462692840638523609" target="_blank">Google for YouTube videos</a> of it. A couple of seconds work found me a video of a <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67N4nHI71yc" target="_blank">Zarrakon</a> raid, an <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJezix44Ark" target="_blank">80 conjy soloing Terror</a>, <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPmHv5Z7biI" target="_blank">Ward of Elements</a>, fighting <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiZMRc12xtU" target="_blank">Kultak</a>, <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3wW-YjG26o" target="_blank">Pentaclypse</a>, <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2cYZDRNrCE" target="_blank">Gynok Moltar</a>, and <a href="http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=T8s&q=site:youtube.com+eq2&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=uDEUS-7aJsG0tgfg7eSsCQ&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=3&ved=0CCYQqwQwAg#q=site%3Ayoutube.com+eq2+pvp&hl=en&view=2&emb=0&client=firefox-a&qvid=site%3Ayoutube.com+eq2&vid=1019639137202743875" target="_blank">tons of PVP</a>.

LardLord

11-30-2009, 07:14 PM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote> We cut a swath of high level destruction through any area we touched. </blockquote>Right, mentoring isn't the solution.I doubt a sidekick system would work either, since the character would be such a liability in true heroic settings.

Babayaaga

11-30-2009, 07:21 PM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Babayaaga@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>In fact, I find that once a player has reached 200 AAs (or is very close to it), they actually prefer "not" to play that character unless it is to farm shards or rewards for Alts, or improve their own gear, because they don't want to "waste" potential AAs on activities that would harm their getting more AAs in the future (when more AAs are added). This actually discourages developed characters from mentoring, rather than encourage it.</blockquote>What do you waste? You don't waste discovery experience once you hit 200AA. Exploring a new area at 200AA won't trigger any AAXP. Once the level increases on AA, you can go back to any new areas and you'll still get the discovery. The same thing happens with named AA bonuses. Once you hit 200AA, you stop earning AA bonuses for killing new named. That bonus will be waiting for you when the limit on AA increases again. As far as quests go, just don't turn them in. When speaking of time "wasted", I literally used the expression that I hear from several of my guildmates on this matter. "Waste" to some refers specifically to time, and how to put time to one's best use. As I mentioned before, there is so much to do in this game that players have become very conscious of time spent on certain activities, and have made personal decisions on how to best spend their time. In some cases, when a player's character reaches that 200 AA mark, unless they are developing that character's gear, they would rather play another character who has not yet reached 200 AAs. But, even in such a case as that, they are going to choose to work on those AAs where they can get the best bang for their buck and right now, that's in the daily missions, NOT mentoring down to lower level content.I'm speaking from experience here. While we have a few people in our guild that are interested in older content just for the sake of experiencing it, or those who have so many shards they don't know what to do with them, particularly if they're geared up and a bit bored of current raid content... But the rest (and this is the greater average of people I know, not just guildmates), these players generally try to maximize the use of their time, and it is these players who could literally care less about old content and its' bonus AA. There just isn't enough value for them.As far as awarding large numbers of shards for hitting old content, that's a non-starter for me. I could blow through the entire prismatic quest in a night. Good for you that you can finish the entire quest in a night. Given that you're an older character, like me I imagine you've already done the quest. Others have not. The quest entails a number of raid zones (which would of course have to be done at level for the bonus AA), and it also requires Speak Like a Dragon to be completed and unless you needed that for your epic, like Monks, you probably won't have done it because it is such a zone hopping chore. If you allow for mentoring (or chronomagic) to give out "20 shards" for the "entire" prismatic quest, there's nothing stopping an raidforce of 24 vastly overpowered level 50's from just steamrolling the content. In fact, why stop at level 50 - mentor to 55 or 58 and you can destroy the quest line even faster. That content was balanced around a time when the 12 power regeneration on the Prismatic Weapons was considered incredible and there were no AA or set bonuses. A couple of groups in T2 mentored down are so ridiculously overpowered that it's almost ludicrous to consider such content as even close to meaningful in any real way.Even still, obtaining 20 shards in a night isn't a big deal if you're running WoE and missions. Heck, I just did that Saturday night and came out with exactly 20 shards in about 6 hours of playing. So, if someone wants to run Speak like a Dragon and all of the raid zones to finish their Prismatic, even if they do complete all of this in a night, why not? They still don't have potential for fabled items or patterns, but at least it's something!You won't encourage players to mentor strangers in this way. You'll simply provide more options and rewards for guilds which don't need the mentoring incentives in the first place. If you've got better ideas, let's hear 'em! I know it would certainly affect my guildmates positively in this manner.As far as offering better gear at those low levels, again we're faced with the Harclave fallacy. Players will always look to maximize their rewards for a minimal outlay of effort. Where did I mention offering better gear to players at low levels? Last time I checked, a level 80 character has next to no interest in level 50 quest rewards, unless it's to level transmuting. Isn't that what we were talking about here?If you provide players with an unlimited ability to go back to old content with characters that are overpowered for the content, they're absolutely going to do it. Oh sure, you may want to set up the content to encourage mentoring of new players and strangers, but the game mechanics allow for self-mentoring, level locking of alts, and any number of other triggers which allow for players to steamroll over the content faster and more efficiently. How is my suggestion in any way changing what is already part of the game? Mentoring has been in the game for a while and players already can choose to utilize it. It sounds to me like you are challenging the mentoring system entirely, and I think that's for another topic.I'm not going to say that I agreed with self-mentoring, I personally think it's counter productive for the community on a whole, but that's just my opinion, and not really relevant to the topic unless my suggestion only counts when you mentor others, not self mentor (which I personally wouldn't have a problem with).Just this weekend, several members of my guild helped one of our newer members who was levelling up a new brigand to help the guild out. We put together an AE heavy powerlevel group in minutes and within just a few hours we'd steamrolled his character through Runnyeye a few times (and associated instances), Deathfist Citadel, a few runs around Feerrott, Obelisk of Lost Souls, and Cazic Thule. He started at level 31. Within 3 hours he was halfway through level 40 (and that's after we told him to switch his AA bar to 30-40%). We absolutely decimated those dungeons. We were pulled two rooms at a time and killing everything. We didn't even stop to loot anything. I felt bad because we rolled over a couple of at-level groups when we did this. We were on a mission, though, so we just kept moving. We cut a swath of high level destruction through any area we touched. Now, imagine encouraging that sort of onslaught on a grand scale.You would see a lot more of the older dungeons populated again, and you would see a lot more new players actually stay in the game, because what you just described is "fun", and that's exactly what new players want to experience.Exactly what is the problem with that?</blockquote>My reply in Orange.

Kendricke

11-30-2009, 09:02 PM

What's the actual problem you're trying to find a solution for? Not enough groups for lower level players? Not enough players don't get to see top tier content? Newer players don't get to see old high-end raiding zones? Player retention?The answer and solution to all of these problems is more guild options, tools, and encouragement.

Yimway

11-30-2009, 09:13 PM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>What's the actual problem you're trying to find a solution for? Not enough groups for lower level players? Not enough players don't get to see top tier content? Newer players don't get to see old high-end raiding zones? Player retention?The answer and solution to all of these problems is more guild options, tools, and encouragement. </blockquote>The issue is how difficult it is for new players to find multi-player opportunities.No amount of guild options, tools, or encouragement is going to solve that issue, as there just isn't enough active players in the lower tier ranges interested in grouping up to solve the issue. So the OP suggested a way to mentor up in a specific instance. Others offered other suggestions to allow immediate up-mentoring to solve the issue.

Yimway

11-30-2009, 09:13 PM

<cite>Sigrdrifa@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't think I can express any more strongly how wretched I find this idea.If people want to see what end game looks like, they can <a href="http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=T8s&q=site:youtube.com+eq2&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=uDEUS-7aJsG0tgfg7eSsCQ&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=3&ved=0CCYQqwQwAg#q=site%3Ayoutube.com+eq2&hl=en&emb=0&client=firefox-a&start=10&view=2&qvid=site%3Ayoutube.com+eq2&vid=-1462692840638523609" target="_blank">Google for YouTube videos</a> of it. A couple of seconds work found me a video of a <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67N4nHI71yc" target="_blank">Zarrakon</a> raid, an <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJezix44Ark" target="_blank">80 conjy soloing Terror</a>, <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPmHv5Z7biI" target="_blank">Ward of Elements</a>, fighting <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiZMRc12xtU" target="_blank">Kultak</a>, <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3wW-YjG26o" target="_blank">Pentaclypse</a>, <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2cYZDRNrCE" target="_blank">Gynok Moltar</a>, and <a href="http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=T8s&q=site:youtube.com+eq2&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=uDEUS-7aJsG0tgfg7eSsCQ&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=3&ved=0CCYQqwQwAg#q=site%3Ayoutube.com+eq2+pvp&hl=en&view=2&emb=0&client=firefox-a&qvid=site%3Ayoutube.com+eq2&vid=1019639137202743875" target="_blank">tons of PVP</a>.</blockquote>You're missing the point, its not about what end game looks like, its about the abilitiy to log in and play with others.

Littlelove

11-30-2009, 09:22 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>The issue is how difficult it is for new players to find multi-player opportunities.No amount of guild options, tools, or encouragement is going to solve that issue, as there just isn't enough active players in the lower tier ranges interested in grouping up to solve the issue. So the OP suggested a way to mentor up in a specific instance. Others offered other suggestions to allow immediate up-mentoring to solve the issue.</blockquote>Personally I hate the up-mentoring idea for too many reasons to list. However, I do believe a "different" game got it right recently. All non-guilded players, once they reach a certain level (say level 10), are automatically placed into the same generic guild. This allows all new players and people leveling to be able to interact with others in the same situation. You can leave whenever you want, but it was nice to be able to quickly and easily find people at my same level. They wouldn't have to have anything special such as guild halls or anything, just guilded with others would help them out. Don't think it would be very difficult to implement this either.

Yimway

11-30-2009, 09:27 PM

<cite>Littlelove@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>The issue is how difficult it is for new players to find multi-player opportunities.No amount of guild options, tools, or encouragement is going to solve that issue, as there just isn't enough active players in the lower tier ranges interested in grouping up to solve the issue. So the OP suggested a way to mentor up in a specific instance. Others offered other suggestions to allow immediate up-mentoring to solve the issue.</blockquote>Personally I hate the up-mentoring idea for too many reasons to list. However, I do believe a "different" game got it right recently. All non-guilded players, once they reach a certain level (say level 10), are automatically placed into the same generic guild. This allows all new players and people leveling to be able to interact with others in the same situation. You can leave whenever you want, but it was nice to be able to quickly and easily find people at my same level. They wouldn't have to have anything special such as guild halls or anything, just guilded with others would help them out. Don't think it would be very difficult to implement this either.</blockquote>Have you played a game with up-mentoring?Just curious as I've played 2 and both had very positive experiences related to it. New players (friends) immediately began play with us veteran players and continuously played with us until they earned enough experience not to up-mentor.The difference in game experience for that player in a game that allows it vs does not is drastic.

Kendricke

11-30-2009, 09:31 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Littlelove@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>The issue is how difficult it is for new players to find multi-player opportunities.No amount of guild options, tools, or encouragement is going to solve that issue, as there just isn't enough active players in the lower tier ranges interested in grouping up to solve the issue. So the OP suggested a way to mentor up in a specific instance. Others offered other suggestions to allow immediate up-mentoring to solve the issue.</blockquote>Personally I hate the up-mentoring idea for too many reasons to list. However, I do believe a "different" game got it right recently. All non-guilded players, once they reach a certain level (say level 10), are automatically placed into the same generic guild. This allows all new players and people leveling to be able to interact with others in the same situation. You can leave whenever you want, but it was nice to be able to quickly and easily find people at my same level. They wouldn't have to have anything special such as guild halls or anything, just guilded with others would help them out. Don't think it would be very difficult to implement this either.</blockquote>Have you played a game with up-mentoring?Just curious as I've played 2 and both had very positive experiences related to it. New players (friends) immediately began play with us veteran players and continuously played with us until they earned enough experience not to up-mentor.The difference in game experience for that player in a game that allows it vs does not is drastic.</blockquote>Both games that I know of which allow for it (City of Heroes/Villians and Guild Wars) have very drastically different game mechanics models also. Remember, just because hot peppers taste great in chili doesn't mean it will make your gespatcho instantly better. Cherry picking different options from one game system to shoehorn into drastically different game systems isn't suddenly going to make things better.

Mythanote

11-30-2009, 09:35 PM

So, to translate Atan's post above mine...It would help his friends to play him and his uber raiding friends. It would still have zero impact on actual new players with 0 people on thier friends list. And go ahead, and tell a fib about how you'll invite Joe Dirge who is only level 9 and new to the game to do a TSO dungeon with you and you're mates. You wouldnt. So to repeat, it does nothing for it.This situation was caused by everyone wanting *solo options* and has only gotten worse with removal of any need to group like the game was originally designed for. Gimmic's dont fix this.

Yimway

11-30-2009, 09:35 PM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>Both games that I know of which allow for it (City of Heroes/Villians and Guild Wars) have very drastically different game mechanics models also. Remember, just because hot peppers taste great in chili doesn't mean it will make your gespatcho instantly better. Cherry picking different options from one game system to shoehorn into drastically different game systems isn't suddenly going to make things better.</blockquote>Doesn't mean they'll make them worse either.People leave the game now cause of how void it is pre cap. People don't even pick up the game cause of how daunting 80 levels of catch-up is, much less 90 in a few months.Up-mentoring, or jump starting are the best alternatives to encouraging those players to either stick around or join in the first place. The downside is minimal, as every downside arguement I hear I feel is invalidated by looking at players who 'did it all' but exhibit the same deficiencies.

Yimway

11-30-2009, 09:37 PM

<cite>Mythanote@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, to translate Atan's post above mine...It would help his friends to play him and his uber raiding friends. It would still have zero impact on actual new players with 0 people on thier friends list. And go ahead, and tell a fib about how you'll invite Joe Dirge who is only level 9 and new to the game to do a TSO dungeon with you and you're mates. You wouldnt. So to repeat, it does nothing for it.This situation was caused by everyone wanting *solo options* and has only gotten worse with removal of any need to group like the game was originally designed for. Gimmic's dont fix this.</blockquote>1) I'm not an uber raider, just casual.2) I'd bring an upticked dirge when no other dirge is available when forming a pug. Cause as long as they cast a few buffs we're looking for the class for, the rest of their contribution is prefferable than doing the zone underhanded.Seriously, don't assume you know me if you've never played with me.

Kendricke

11-30-2009, 09:45 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>Both games that I know of which allow for it (City of Heroes/Villians and Guild Wars) have very drastically different game mechanics models also. Remember, just because hot peppers taste great in chili doesn't mean it will make your gespatcho instantly better. Cherry picking different options from one game system to shoehorn into drastically different game systems isn't suddenly going to make things better.</blockquote>Doesn't mean they'll make them worse either.People leave the game now cause of how void it is pre cap. People don't even pick up the game cause of how daunting 80 levels of catch-up is, much less 90 in a few months.Up-mentoring, or jump starting are the best alternatives to encouraging those players to either stick around or join in the first place. The downside is minimal, as every downside arguement I hear I feel is invalidated by looking at players who 'did it all' but exhibit the same deficiencies.</blockquote>This is based on your opinion and personal experience, correct? Obviously I can't dispute your personal opinion. However, I can cite studies (plural) which show how active guilds encourage player retention, activity, and achievements. Look, I want more player retention within the game as well. My guild recruits lower level players all the time. We then provide them with a guild hall, amenities, active guildchat, forums to surf from work, and at least two days a week where we pair up veterans and newer members. In a guild - a solid, active guild - players are presented with additional reasons to build emotional attachments to a game over and above the basic mechanics.

Yimway

11-30-2009, 10:07 PM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is based on your opinion and personal experience, correct? Obviously I can't dispute your personal opinion. However, I can cite studies (plural) which show how active guilds encourage player retention, activity, and achievements. Look, I want more player retention within the game as well. My guild recruits lower level players all the time. We then provide them with a guild hall, amenities, active guildchat, forums to surf from work, and at least two days a week where we pair up veterans and newer members. In a guild - a solid, active guild - players are presented with additional reasons to build emotional attachments to a game over and above the basic mechanics.</blockquote>I'm not saying they don't Kendricke, I can cite the same studies.I'm saying that has little to do with the lack of grouping opportunities at lower levels.Even if you took every level 20-40 player logged on and thru them into a guild, you'd still not find many more grouping opportunities.

Kendricke

11-30-2009, 10:20 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is based on your opinion and personal experience, correct? Obviously I can't dispute your personal opinion. However, I can cite studies (plural) which show how active guilds encourage player retention, activity, and achievements. Look, I want more player retention within the game as well. My guild recruits lower level players all the time. We then provide them with a guild hall, amenities, active guildchat, forums to surf from work, and at least two days a week where we pair up veterans and newer members. In a guild - a solid, active guild - players are presented with additional reasons to build emotional attachments to a game over and above the basic mechanics.</blockquote>I'm not saying they don't Kendricke, I can cite the same studies.I'm saying that has little to do with the lack of grouping opportunities at lower levels.Even if you took every level 20-40 player logged on and thru them into a guild, you'd still not find many more grouping opportunities.</blockquote>I respect your opinion on this, but still I disagree. Other games (several non-MMOs as well) show that effective matchmaking is not only possible, but effective. Expand that service to provide players with more ways to find guilds effectively. Stop relying only upon player-selected filtering systems and provide players with additional means by which to find guilds and even servers which match their playstyles. Provide matchmaking tools within the game's structure which pair up players to guilds that share similar play times and styles. Provide options within such a tool for guild leaders to search for players who are searching for guilds. There are other solutions, to be sure. However, reverse-mentoring or "sidekicking" won't solve the issue - not within Everquest II, at least. The system will be used to help fill in raid and group slots far more often than it will be used to help lower level players find groups to hit older content. If anything, the older content will be LESS utilized. In addition, lower level players will outright skip level appropriate drops (something that wasn't really an issue in games such as City of Heroes which do not depend upon level appropriate gear) and players attempting to group up in those lower level zones will have even LESS options available to them - unless, of course, they wish to sidekick a veteran group heading into a Daily Double or Hot Zone.

Yimway

11-30-2009, 11:24 PM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>I respect your opinion on this, but still I disagree. Other games (several non-MMOs as well) show that effective matchmaking is not only possible, but effective. Expand that service to provide players with more ways to find guilds effectively. Stop relying only upon player-selected filtering systems and provide players with additional means by which to find guilds and even servers which match their playstyles. Provide matchmaking tools within the game's structure which pair up players to guilds that share similar play times and styles. Provide options within such a tool for guild leaders to search for players who are searching for guilds. </blockquote>The other games also have very rewarding content to be done when lumped together at lower levels.Just lumping them together wont fix the systemic issue of a lack of lower level players looking to group up for multi-player content. As, the numbers of lower level players that are not soloists or alts grinding up is not sufficient enough of a population to support frequent grouping opportunities without the pool available increased in some way. Guilding in this scenario isn't the end-all sollution to the issue.Guilding doesn't make 90 levels of catchup seem reasonable to a potential new player. It doesn't increase grouping opportunities due to the design of the game in current state. I agree there are many ways it does add to player retention. Sure, some random new player in my guild being reassured from us frequently that they'll get to play with others when they reach cap might keep them around where being in a void would not. But, I don't feel it significantly impacts the unfullfilled desires that many of these players have to be playing with others rather than following the breadcrumb trail thru wikia.

Kendricke

11-30-2009, 11:42 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sure, some random new player in my guild being reassured from us frequently that they'll get to play with others when they reach cap might keep them around where being in a void would not. </blockquote>Which means a matchmaking service wouldn't likely point them to your guild in the first place. The type of matchmaking service I'm talking about will be prevalent within a few years in a multitude of games. It will track trends within your guild, track average online times, track average levels online, track average content type (dungeons, quests, tradeskilling, raid zones) and it could utilize this information to help players find guilds which are good fits for them.Is it an easy solution? No, or else you'd see such a tool already being used within games more frequently. However, it's not as if this information cannot be tracked right now. It's not as if databases couldn't be created that store this information. Based just on public disclosures, we know that this information is already available and being tracked from a variety of studios and publishers. The next step is in taking that information and making it more user friendly for players to access - if not directly, then through tools such as a matching mechanic. Even without such a tool, don't assume that all guilds are like your guild. Sure, you've got high level members. My guild does, too. We also have a large contingent of alts and secondaries. At any given time, we're working up several different lower level characters. We're constantly receiving membership inquiries from lower level characters. We spend two days a week specifically grouping with lower level members - through grouping or mentoring. When we do so, we already mow through the content available at those lower levels. Providing additional means or incentives by which we can or should mentor will only mean that we'd see more players mowing through lower level content - not that lower level players will suddenly have their grouping needs met. By the same token, suddenly allowing low level characters to group with high level characters isn't going to immediately remove the added issues such a process change would create within the system. Unlike City of Heroes, loot is a consideration here and the level of that loot matters. The developers are already working on a progressive gear system which will utilize level of gear even more. How would you overcome such a system when players can level up to join in high level groups - would their gear level up with them? Would their level 20 gear become more effective when they "sidekick" up than the level 85 gear the real level 90's are wearing? Would they gain more experience or less?

Avianna

12-01-2009, 12:26 AM

My idea for helping new players experience the end game stuff... Point them to the test server and tell them to talk to the guy that turns them into an 80 hands them some kickin armor and 10 plat and says have fun!

PinChaser

12-01-2009, 12:31 AM

<cite>Mythanote@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>This situation was caused by everyone wanting *solo options* and has only gotten worse with removal of any need to group like the game was originally designed for. Gimmic's dont fix this.</blockquote>this 1000 times

Yimway

12-01-2009, 03:57 AM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>By the same token, suddenly allowing low level characters to group with high level characters isn't going to immediately remove the added issues such a process change would create within the system. Unlike City of Heroes, loot is a consideration here and the level of that loot matters. The developers are already working on a progressive gear system which will utilize level of gear even more. How would you overcome such a system when players can level up to join in high level groups - would their gear level up with them? Would their level 20 gear become more effective when they "sidekick" up than the level 85 gear the real level 90's are wearing? Would they gain more experience or less? </blockquote>Their gear would scale to base set standards as suggested previosly in the thread (t1 shard gear approx). While there is a loot based progression in eq2, all loot progression before end-tier is largely unimportant. I can point you to some of my lvl 50+ alts still wearing low level jewelery. Before end tier, loot isn't important. What I'm seeing players consistently ask for is more multiplayer gameplay before cap though. Providing gear scales up without overpowering them, their abilities scale up reasonable, and a few most common aa abilities are gifted for the durration I don't see it being game breaking for eq2.Their net reward would be % based xp gains and time spent grouping vs solo grinding. Its hard for me to say it would be well used, as honestly upticking isn't my preferred sollution. I've been advocating for years now to provide a jumpstart character slot instead, but I see how either method would be a welcome alternative to new players looking to group more as well as something to attract new players.

Besual

12-01-2009, 05:22 AM

This will absolutly not work. Scaling equipment down is simple: You level 80 item has 3MC und you mentor down you lose some of this bonus. Now the other way. All your level 20 equipment has 0MC. How much MC will it have when you mentor to up to level 80? Should still 0MC. Same goes for all other blue stats. Atan suggested you get buffed to T1 equivalent. In other words: it wouldn't matter if you wear level 10 handcrafted or full T7: Mentor up to level 80 and you get buffed to T1.Next point are spells / CAs. A level 30 toon has no bloodline spell, not the new spell we got at level 50, not the DoF 52 / 55 / 58 specials... Does he get these spells / CAs when he mentors up? What quality are these spells? AppI? AppIV? Adept1? Adept3? Master? (Sorry, can't remember the new names)I don't want to start to speak about the XP issues that will came along with this "mentor up". Or the smart loot problems. All this problems for what? 50 new subscriptions per month or 100? Not really worth it. I think the real reason for the feature is "I rolled my 10th alt and want to jump to level 80 right now."

Yimway

12-01-2009, 12:10 PM

<cite>Besual wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the real reason for the feature is "I rolled my 10th alt and want to jump to level 80 right now."</blockquote>Given how trivial that process is, I doubt veteran players are asking for that.

Eliezer

12-01-2009, 12:33 PM

<cite>PinChaser wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mythanote@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>This situation was caused by everyone wanting *solo options* and has only gotten worse with removal of any need to group like the game was originally designed for. Gimmic's dont fix this.</blockquote>this 1000 times</blockquote>It is a double edged sword. I was a long time EQ player, went with EQ2 at release due to brand loyalty, but eventually defected to WoW. I have returned to EQ2 recently. So I can compare experiences at both ends of the spectrum. You can argue about what SOE should have done forever, but I think that for the game to have any chance of gaining new players, the soloability aspects need to be in there. Having played both games, I think EQ2 is a superior product, but that WoW's solo-friendly atmosphere at release really gave it a boost.If EQ2 retained its original level of group dependency today, it would be virtually impossible for truly new players to have any chance. They would be blocked by content that there aren't enough players in lower level ranges to accomodate. Lower tier dungeons are empty.

Rijacki

12-01-2009, 12:42 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>I respect your opinion on this, but still I disagree. Other games (several non-MMOs as well) show that effective matchmaking is not only possible, but effective. Expand that service to provide players with more ways to find guilds effectively. Stop relying only upon player-selected filtering systems and provide players with additional means by which to find guilds and even servers which match their playstyles. Provide matchmaking tools within the game's structure which pair up players to guilds that share similar play times and styles. Provide options within such a tool for guild leaders to search for players who are searching for guilds. </blockquote>The other games also have very rewarding content to be done when lumped together at lower levels.Just lumping them together wont fix the systemic issue of a lack of lower level players looking to group up for multi-player content. As, the numbers of lower level players that are not soloists or alts grinding up is not sufficient enough of a population to support frequent grouping opportunities without the pool available increased in some way. Guilding in this scenario isn't the end-all sollution to the issue.Guilding doesn't make 90 levels of catchup seem reasonable to a potential new player. It doesn't increase grouping opportunities due to the design of the game in current state. I agree there are many ways it does add to player retention. Sure, some random new player in my guild being reassured from us frequently that they'll get to play with others when they reach cap might keep them around where being in a void would not. But, I don't feel it significantly impacts the unfullfilled desires that many of these players have to be playing with others rather than following the breadcrumb trail thru wikia.</blockquote>Quoting you from another thread because you really seem to be saying 2 contradictory things.<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think most players experiences will be more rewarding being actively engaged in a community of like minded players. The more the game can urge players into these groups, the more rewarded the players will be.</blockquote>Players getting involved with other players IS the key, yes. Guilding is one of the ways to encourage that. Allowing -new- players to "mentor up" (sidekick or whatever) isn't the solution because, unless there was a 'self' method, those new players would still have to find another player that would be willing to let them 'tag-along' in exactly the same way they could find someone to mentor them at their own level. Since, as others have pointed out, a lot of players think mentoring is "wasting time", wouldn't dragging a sidekick along be categorized as the same (or similar) waste of time (since that player would barely contribute).

Yimway

12-01-2009, 01:00 PM

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>I respect your opinion on this, but still I disagree. Other games (several non-MMOs as well) show that effective matchmaking is not only possible, but effective. Expand that service to provide players with more ways to find guilds effectively. Stop relying only upon player-selected filtering systems and provide players with additional means by which to find guilds and even servers which match their playstyles. Provide matchmaking tools within the game's structure which pair up players to guilds that share similar play times and styles. Provide options within such a tool for guild leaders to search for players who are searching for guilds. </blockquote>The other games also have very rewarding content to be done when lumped together at lower levels.Just lumping them together wont fix the systemic issue of a lack of lower level players looking to group up for multi-player content. As, the numbers of lower level players that are not soloists or alts grinding up is not sufficient enough of a population to support frequent grouping opportunities without the pool available increased in some way. Guilding in this scenario isn't the end-all sollution to the issue.Guilding doesn't make 90 levels of catchup seem reasonable to a potential new player. It doesn't increase grouping opportunities due to the design of the game in current state. I agree there are many ways it does add to player retention. Sure, some random new player in my guild being reassured from us frequently that they'll get to play with others when they reach cap might keep them around where being in a void would not. But, I don't feel it significantly impacts the unfullfilled desires that many of these players have to be playing with others rather than following the breadcrumb trail thru wikia.</blockquote>Quoting you from another thread because you really seem to be saying 2 contradictory things.<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think most players experiences will be more rewarding being actively engaged in a community of like minded players. The more the game can urge players into these groups, the more rewarded the players will be.</blockquote>Players getting involved with other players IS the key, yes. Guilding is one of the ways to encourage that. Allowing -new- players to "mentor up" (sidekick or whatever) isn't the solution because, unless there was a 'self' method, those new players would still have to find another player that would be willing to let them 'tag-along' in exactly the same way they could find someone to mentor them at their own level. Since, as others have pointed out, a lot of players think mentoring is "wasting time", wouldn't dragging a sidekick along be categorized as the same (or similar) waste of time (since that player would barely contribute).</blockquote>I understand your reading what I said as different things, but my point is, they are seperate issues. No matter how much you guild players together at low levels, that will not change the solo focus of the game before cap. These are distinctly different issues.Yes, guilding improves retention, I highly encourage all players to get involved with larger, active guilds as it makes the game much more enjoyable. However that doesn't change that there are very few grouping opportunites before level cap and there are sets of players that prefer that experience and they are put off with the 'game beginining at level 80'. There are even more players who might be interested in playing another MMO but will never pick up this title as gaining 90 levels to catch up is overly daunting.I've simply advocated any system that mitigates the 'multiplayer game begins at level cap' experience.Its hard for me to say how well mentor up would be used. I know as I've stated when I'm forming a pug and I can't find a needed class at cap, I'd gladly take one mentor'ed up as long as they're given the basic tools to get the job done, and for 50% of the group content in game, that would be more than enough. I recognize that system would favor utility classes to heavily, and as I already stated, I favor jump-start character slots over mentoring up, but this thread was about mentor up instances so I tried to keep my alternative ideas that have already been discussed adnausiem out.

LardLord

12-01-2009, 06:22 PM

Ok, so what would have to happen to make the sidekick-thing work? My thoughts below.1) The sidekick's gear level would have to be based on the other player's stats/gear. If you just go to a generic gear upgrade, you'd end up overpowered or, more likely, vastly underpowered. If it's based on the gear of the person you're "mentoring up," your gear should be roughly as balanced for the content as that player's gear is. Since I don't envision procs or clicky effects being apart of this system, there's still incentive to obtain the high level gear yourself, and, of course, there's still incentive to progress your character in other ways for the new spells and AAs.2) The LFG system should be upgraded or used more or level chats would need to be consolidated. If groups are formed in 70s and 80s chat, there wouldn't be much opportunity for lower level players to inquire about groups, even if the people forming the group would be happy to save time forming by including sidekicks. In the LFG window, the group leader could specify if he'd be willing to invite sidekicks.3) Allowing the higher level player to "call" the sidekick to them across zones would make the system far more accessible for new players, and it would make it less of a hassle for the other players in the group. They could give all players a "call sidekick" spell with a cooldown long enough to keep CotH and call items special. It would give players a glimpse into the advanced zones, but they'd still have plenty of exploring to do, if they like that sort of thing.4) The sidekick's exp rate may need to be tweaked via exp penalties for being a sidekick. I'm fairly clueless about the details of the exp system in this game, but if the sidekick system is successful, there's really no reason people would need to level faster than they do currently. Typically, I believe the exp rate in groups needs to be higher than the solo rate to account for LFG time and just to make up for the other inefficiencies in PuGs, but leveling as a sidekick could just complement solo leveling, especially if a "call" can eliminate travel time.

LardLord

12-01-2009, 06:28 PM

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote>Allowing -new- players to "mentor up" (sidekick or whatever) isn't the solution because, unless there was a 'self' method, those new players would still have to find another player that would be willing to let them 'tag-along' in exactly the same way they could find someone to mentor them at their own level. Since, as others have pointed out, a lot of players think mentoring is "wasting time", wouldn't dragging a sidekick along be categorized as the same (or similar) waste of time (since that player would barely contribute).</blockquote>The reason a sidekick system has a chance of working is that the content is relevant for the high level players. There's little point for 80s to go to Runnyeye or Sol's Eye, especially if they've done the zones once for AA. There are many more incentives for 80s to run current tier content, and if they are having trouble filling out their group, a sidekick could actually save them time.

PinChaser

12-02-2009, 02:25 AM

<cite>Eliezer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PinChaser wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mythanote@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>This situation was caused by everyone wanting *solo options* and has only gotten worse with removal of any need to group like the game was originally designed for. Gimmic's dont fix this.</blockquote>this 1000 times</blockquote>It is a double edged sword. I was a long time EQ player, went with EQ2 at release due to brand loyalty, but eventually defected to WoW. I have returned to EQ2 recently. So I can compare experiences at both ends of the spectrum. You can argue about what SOE should have done forever, but I think that for the game to have any chance of gaining new players, the soloability aspects need to be in there. Having played both games, I think EQ2 is a superior product, but that WoW's solo-friendly atmosphere at release really gave it a boost.If EQ2 retained its original level of group dependency today, it would be virtually impossible for truly new players to have any chance. They would be blocked by content that there aren't enough players in lower level ranges to accomodate. Lower tier dungeons are empty.</blockquote>i understand that there needs to be solo content, but imo SoE went from one end to the other. Which is a detriment to the lower levels because no ones these long enough. If it took longer to get through the levels than it would be easier to find groups in your range. I hit 20 in 5 hours of game play on an alt. On my Original toon 9and still my main) it took me what seemed like forever to hit 20.

Mythanote

12-02-2009, 02:44 AM

<cite>PinChaser wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eliezer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PinChaser wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mythanote@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>This situation was caused by everyone wanting *solo options* and has only gotten worse with removal of any need to group like the game was originally designed for. Gimmic's dont fix this.</blockquote>this 1000 times</blockquote>It is a double edged sword. I was a long time EQ player, went with EQ2 at release due to brand loyalty, but eventually defected to WoW. I have returned to EQ2 recently. So I can compare experiences at both ends of the spectrum. You can argue about what SOE should have done forever, but I think that for the game to have any chance of gaining new players, the soloability aspects need to be in there. Having played both games, I think EQ2 is a superior product, but that WoW's solo-friendly atmosphere at release really gave it a boost.If EQ2 retained its original level of group dependency today, it would be virtually impossible for truly new players to have any chance. They would be blocked by content that there aren't enough players in lower level ranges to accomodate. Lower tier dungeons are empty.</blockquote>i understand that there needs to be solo content, but imo SoE went from one end to the other. Which is a detriment to the lower levels because no ones these long enough. If it took longer to get through the levels than it would be easier to find groups in your range. I hit 20 in 5 hours of game play on an alt. On my Original toon 9and still my main) it took me what seemed like forever to hit 20.</blockquote>This.Yes, there should be solo *options*, but it's currently the de facto method of levelling way more then grouping. Should be Grouping > cant find group I can solo something for xp. And the increase in XP gain that came along with soloquest, means no one is low level long enough to form the groups everyone is mentioning. I vividly remember the multitude of groups, when the game was in it's first year and grouping was the norm, not soloing. And even then, as a guardian, I could find mobs to solo (doing writs for guild usually). Which all goes back to my original post ages back. Gimmic's dont fix the problem. They (SOE) did this to themselves, in an attempt to attract WoW players, and now it's completly out of control.

PinChaser

12-02-2009, 02:55 AM

<cite>Mythanote@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PinChaser wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eliezer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PinChaser wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mythanote@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>This situation was caused by everyone wanting *solo options* and has only gotten worse with removal of any need to group like the game was originally designed for. Gimmic's dont fix this.</blockquote>this 1000 times</blockquote>It is a double edged sword. I was a long time EQ player, went with EQ2 at release due to brand loyalty, but eventually defected to WoW. I have returned to EQ2 recently. So I can compare experiences at both ends of the spectrum. You can argue about what SOE should have done forever, but I think that for the game to have any chance of gaining new players, the soloability aspects need to be in there. Having played both games, I think EQ2 is a superior product, but that WoW's solo-friendly atmosphere at release really gave it a boost.If EQ2 retained its original level of group dependency today, it would be virtually impossible for truly new players to have any chance. They would be blocked by content that there aren't enough players in lower level ranges to accomodate. Lower tier dungeons are empty.</blockquote>i understand that there needs to be solo content, but imo SoE went from one end to the other. Which is a detriment to the lower levels because no ones these long enough. If it took longer to get through the levels than it would be easier to find groups in your range. I hit 20 in 5 hours of game play on an alt. On my Original toon 9and still my main) it took me what seemed like forever to hit 20.</blockquote>This.Yes, there should be solo *options*, but it's currently the de facto method of levelling way more then grouping. Should be Grouping > cant find group I can solo something for xp. And the increase in XP gain that came along with soloquest, means no one is low level long enough to form the groups everyone is mentioning. I vividly remember the multitude of groups, when the game was in it's first year and grouping was the norm, not soloing. And even then, as a guardian, I could find mobs to solo (doing writs for guild usually). Which all goes back to my original post ages back. Gimmic's dont fix the problem. They (SOE) did this to themselves, in an attempt to attract WoW players, and now it's completly out of control.</blockquote>leveling now is like a game of pinball. You get points(xp) for everything you do.

Trellium

12-02-2009, 02:42 PM

<cite>Mythanote@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>This.Yes, there should be solo *options*, but it's currently the de facto method of levelling way more then grouping. Should be Grouping > cant find group I can solo something for xp. And the increase in XP gain that came along with soloquest, means no one is low level long enough to form the groups everyone is mentioning. I vividly remember the multitude of groups, when the game was in it's first year and grouping was the norm, not soloing. And even then, as a guardian, I could find mobs to solo (doing writs for guild usually). Which all goes back to my original post ages back. Gimmic's dont fix the problem. They (SOE) did this to themselves, in an attempt to attract WoW players, and now it's completly out of control.</blockquote>There are solo options, and there are group options at all level ranges. Its the players who decide if/when they group. But not all players want to group all the time.If they offer solo content, and people use it predominantly even with alternatives the I would think that SOE is catering to peoples desires.

bks6721

12-02-2009, 04:14 PM

<cite>Trellium wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mythanote@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>This.Yes, there should be solo *options*, but it's currently the de facto method of levelling way more then grouping. Should be Grouping > cant find group I can solo something for xp. And the increase in XP gain that came along with soloquest, means no one is low level long enough to form the groups everyone is mentioning. I vividly remember the multitude of groups, when the game was in it's first year and grouping was the norm, not soloing. And even then, as a guardian, I could find mobs to solo (doing writs for guild usually). Which all goes back to my original post ages back. Gimmic's dont fix the problem. They (SOE) did this to themselves, in an attempt to attract WoW players, and now it's completly out of control.</blockquote>There are solo options, and there are group options at all level ranges. Its the players who decide if/when they group. But not all players want to group all the time.If they offer solo content, and people use it predominantly even with alternatives the I would think that SOE is catering to peoples desires.</blockquote>Agreed. The grouping options are still in the game. Most people just choose NOT to group at lower levels.My 32 Guardian would be better off running some solo quests than grinding a group through Stormhold again. People want to earn that aa, and group grinding isn't the best way to do that.

Xisi

12-02-2009, 04:40 PM

I just returned after a year and am appalled by how unfriendly this game has become to new players.Bad decisions that are detrimental to new players' experience:1. Easy, super easy multiboxing, mentoring that greatly favors old players and disadvantages new players. New players are stuck at naturally leveling from 1-80 while old players rushed to 8 within a week. No reason ever to group with new players. New players are stuck soloing at snail's pace. Multiboxing and mentoring shouldn't be THIS no brainer.2. Heirloom items. Alts never need to do lowbie instances. New players have no groups to do instances.Why do old players want to have instant level 80 alts? What's the purpse of having alts if they do not wish to level up naturally? Because their guilds want different toons for a raid?This super fast alts powerleveling also makes guild stale. Guilds are no longer recruiting for certain classes since your existing memebers can almost instantly leveling up another class. This game has become very stale due to certain bad business decisisons that cater to old players.

Trellium

12-02-2009, 09:12 PM

<cite>isi@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just returned after a year and am appalled by how unfriendly this game has become to new players.Bad decisions that are detrimental to new players' experience:1. Easy, super easy multiboxing, mentoring that greatly favors old players and disadvantages new players. New players are stuck at naturally leveling from 1-80 while old players rushed to 8 within a week. No reason ever to group with new players. New players are stuck soloing at snail's pace. Multiboxing and mentoring shouldn't be THIS no brainer.2. Heirloom items. Alts never need to do lowbie instances. New players have no groups to do instances.Why do old players want to have instant level 80 alts? What's the purpse of having alts if they do not wish to level up naturally? Because their guilds want different toons for a raid?This super fast alts powerleveling also makes guild stale. Guilds are no longer recruiting for certain classes since your existing memebers can almost instantly leveling up another class. This game has become very stale due to certain bad business decisisons that cater to old players.</blockquote>I can't possibly disagree more. I group way more now at lower levels, and I tend to stay there longer than the people I group with (they aren't locked down while I do a ton of quests).Multiboxing was always easy. It's really a no-change.Heirloom items are level specific. You have to do those levels to get them. I find them mostly useful for tokens from events like Frostfell, or moving my mount to an alt I am playing for a bit (although few mounts are heirloom).Super fast powerleveling? Check the multipage thread on people who are stalling their leveling while they build up their AA's. It's a really fun way to play ... and most likely you will outlevel them several times over.I think you are expecting way too much. You seem to want people to cater to your needs, when in reality people like games that cater to theirs. Sometimes it's fun to level up fast, sometimes its fun to be a low level with a bunch of AA's, sometimes I like being a low level with maxed tradeskilling and working on the harvesting & tradeskill epics.EQ2 has a lot of flexibility, and you can be all of the things you don't like or do like. Its really your choice.