holding agro against better geared tanks...? [Archive]

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TerrorFirmer

11-21-2009, 11:08 AM

Hey all,I have never had an issue with agro before... so I am searching out advice. My guild is currently killing avatars, munzok, etc, and I am a new recruit. One thing I have noticed is that the guild bruiser is an absolute beastial hate magnet, and I have to blow holy ground/rescue/whatever else to keep agro on myself when they ask me to main tank. This leads me to feel a tad bit embarassed, even though he is better geared than I am at the moment and his group setup included a dirge/coercer and I had no dirge and sometimes don't have a coercer. I still don't feel this is an excuse, I am just baffled.I'm wondering from the more experienced end-game paladins what I should do in this situation? I try not to question group setup, because overall they tend to be really good and the raid force is very experienced, I'm just not used to the ideal setups for paladins. Generally I have two healers, a troubador, an illusionist, a wizard (amends target), sometimes a coercer instead of the illusionist. I am wondering if they are weighing amends too much into the hate generation and I need a standard main tank group setup? Even though the wizard does over 20k dps, it can come in spikes and there are times where I can lose agro to aforementioned bruiser and not be able to get it back until one of my snaps is up. Should I ask that the bruiser does not get hate mods placed on him if I am main tank? Is that being a wuss? LOL.The tools that I use to get out of agro hell are -- holy ground, rescue, sneering assault. What else is there? Sigil seems to do almost nothing in a raid setup. Holy ground, even with points into it, never seems to be up enough. Should I get +hate gear? What options are there for this type of gear? I know the bastion earring, but they tend to kill gozak when I am not there (d'oh!). Survivability doesn't seem to be an issue whatsoever... would speccing into agility instead of stamina make any difference? Would I feel the loss of 22% melee crit? Thanks for your help!

Boli32

11-21-2009, 03:38 PM

You say you almost never get a dirge... I'll wager you get put in the mage/troub group as many people even in top end gulids consider this is where we will benefit the most from... this is NOT the case at all as dirges more beenfit to us than troubs (although ideally both is perfect <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />).That being said ask the person you are casting amends on to cancel the troub "decrease hate" buff; and make sure they do not have the coercer dehate on them. This will reduce the overall effectiveness of Amends. Althoguh in a group where hate is being generated from the entire group drop amends and use Trak Sheild buff... its far more effective. esp if you "persuade" the troub to drop the entire group deagro buff entirely.In fact that entire troub de hate will screw with trak shield and sigil' so they'll become less effective That is the main reason I don't like being put in the mage group myself. we work on transfering hate and if half the hate is not generated before it gets to you we become less effective.Secondly, you are working with 0% hate buffs against a tank with a coercer (hate transfer and gain) and a Dirge (hate gain), that combined with a bruisers mythical proc they are generating a LOT of hate; I would guess they'll have an assasin or swash in that group generating hate for them as well... that is a lot of hate to overcome esp with no hate gain and your transfer from amends lowered.Third: check for sneaky signets of betrayal; that'll generate not only agro gain when not tanking but also hate positions. Brsuiers I know love that ring and refuse to take it off even if they die every fight.In short if the bruiser knows what they are doing they can easily hold agro off you unless you load on every bit of dps gear you have and just blow the lot; and then with all the "crap" dps gear yuou need to equip it will nehgate bringing a paladin in the first polace as your survibility will be lwoered dramatically.Ask your raid leaders: "Do you want me to hold agro"; if the answer is yes then ask them "then why have I got the dps group and the brusier the tank group"; this is when they'll start to moan about the brsuier in said group does more dps; this will most likely be true. HOWEVER you need to explain to the leaders that buffing the brusier up to the gills with hate transfers and hate gains (you can alomost bet he's got both coercer and dirge hate gain on him); it will be a nightmare to hold agro off him without going full dps gear and then itll compromise your role as a "tank". Amends as I explained earlier is compromised by the troub; but 50% transfer is the cap and the brusier is going to get the same in his group; so that advantage is compltely negated.A nice middle-way however is actually very very sneaky; ask for yourself to be traded into the bruiser group in place of a scout he's got in there... and Amend the bruiser; chat to them quietly and explain so they don't use force targets or any rescues and then just start pumping out the hate. What raid leaders often forget is a paladin can amend ANYONE. I used to get asked all the time "do you want a swash or an assasin"; well quite frankly sometimes I'll prefer the brig <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />.Likewise it is often thought that wizards and warlocks are ideal amend targets as they generate the most dps. They do BUT they don;t often generate the most HATE. chanc3es are high they'll have 50% less hate generation from troub/coecer buffs so they're 20k dps == 10k hate == 4.1k transfered hate. If a brusier is regually doing 10k lets say; but with hate gain and taunts bringing it up to 15k hate per second. transfering from him == 6.5k or so hate. which is more than the wizard.A "perfect" group for a paladin imho is illy, troub, mystic, inquis, paladin, dirge. And if needs be you amend the illusionist; swap a coercer in for AoE fights and you'll be golden; howevre if no chockers are being used and the ehaler is worth his socks ONE healer can keep up the paladin on most fights; we're THAT easy to heal; I occasionaly have 3 healers when I'm MTing stuff and I have to talk my raid leader out of it; for one all I get is the warden in the group moaning that he's bored <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Anyways sorry for the wall of text... but hope there is enough in their to help.

Kigneer

11-21-2009, 03:54 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>You say you almost never get a dirge... I'll wager you get put in the mage/troub group as many people even in top end gulids consider this is where we will benefit the most from... this is NOT the case at all as dirges more beenfit to us than troubs (although ideally both is perfect <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />).</blockquote>Rarely agree with Boli, but will here....you want a pocket Diiiiiiiiirge like no tomorrow. Chain one to your side.Have to remember, that although many consider Paladins spell tanks we're not SKs, much of our damage comes from melee. Troubies are wonderful for casting buffs, but you'll perform better with a Diiiiiiiirge (where's those valentine hearts???).Hate being in the casting group, as it's gimpage. Sure, spells would do nice damage, and you'll be pretty high on the parser list, but you'll still be gimped, as you lost your melee advantage.

Boli32

11-21-2009, 06:54 PM

Actually on average you'll tend do more dps with a troub especially on AoE fights; however the dirges 10% accuracy bonus really pushes it higher on singles in raids. This doesn't take into account any single target buffs as Battlecry gives crusaders an insane dps boost <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />That being said there is no subtitute for a dirge in your group when you are wanting to tank, the stoneskin alone is worth its weight in gold.

TerrorFirmer

11-22-2009, 10:38 AM

Thanks for the helpful advice. It is good to know that it is POSSIBLE for that bruiser to be able to easily rip agro from me. I am going to be sure to look to make sure that the troub does NOT play deagro songs and that my amends target does NOT have link on him. The raid force is very experienced, but to my knowledge I don't think they have had a paladin for a while, so they might just not be used to my needs. It is kind of funny, went from running people through WOE to jumping into the fire with Munzok, what a difference! You really learn a lot about your class when the pressure is on. Just good to know that I'm not missing any of the basics. I'd love to have a dirge, but usually they don't put battle cry on me anyway (although I get IA). The hate buff and melee buffs are worth it to me, though. I would generally prefer a dirge to a troub. What if given the choice between a dirge and a coercer? Which is the better choice in that decision?What about the agility line for offtanking? That is the one thing that I still am curious about. Will I give up that much without divine aura, 3% life (points in atm) and 22% melee crit? I know for main tanking stamina is the obvious choice, is it still the obvious choice when offtanking? I rarely use divine aura in a raid setting, and 3% life when you have over 21k raid buffed doesn't seem like much. Just curious <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Boli32

11-22-2009, 12:16 PM

Divine Aura Vs TrampleVerdict: personal preferenceI spec it b/c I use it regually - when I grab agro I generally fire it and it reduces (tho not stops) incoming damage and allows my healer to catch up. however Agi line is great for pure dps (nothing beats trample); but I have that on my mirror and spec into it for gynok and a few other fights. I have tanked all without trample and noticed little difference however but I like knowing I have it "just in case".IAThe dirge should get this ability anyways if your illys know what they are doing.Dirge Vs CoercerDirge, hands down; 10% accuracy bonus shoudol not be discarded. Dirge+Illy for best dps/hate gain imho.Troub Deagro songIts best just to make sure the person you are amending just cancels theirs.. you've just gotta suck up the decreased effectivness of Sigil.

TerrorFirmer

11-22-2009, 02:03 PM

Thanks, Boli.What does your agility spec look like?I am thinking the following:Str 4 4 8 6 2Agility 4 4 8Sta 4 4 5Int 4 4 8That way I still keep some of my melee crit... but I'm not sure if it would be better just to spend those points and get the agility end line? It seems like a lot of wasted points just to get back up to the melee crit, and then I only have 5 left to spend in it. I have never messed around with the agility end line but I have heard some people say it is a good dps ability.

Boli32

11-22-2009, 02:10 PM

That's my Instance/AoE/DPS spec... I did consider dropping sta for lance (end agi line); but in the end I prefer keeping hammer ground. Sure its damage may be bad; and its hit rate is appauling (~ 50%) but its an AoE, and in herioc content (and sometimes herioc adds in raids) it stuns; but more importantly its another AoE which in conjuction with Holy Ground helps maintain agro against multi targets if all your other AoEs are down.

Misuko

11-27-2009, 03:00 PM

Edit: just noticed Boli said it better.

TerrorFirmer

11-30-2009, 09:29 PM

Thanks for everyone's replies. Here is an update:1) Even though I get teased, I added a line in my macro that sends a tell to the amends target asking them to drop any negative hate buffs they may have on them. I have gotten resistance to this, and people tend to argue a bit, but in the end they drop the de-hates and things have been smoother.2) When given what I would consider to be my ideal setup, I had an interesting thing happen. I was offtanking on Zarrakon and had a dirge, coercer, and assassin amends target (routinely topping the parse). On incoming, I let the main tank get in a few hits, then started to auto attack. I instantly RIPPED agro, and had to move in front of the mob and swing him around. I kept trying to give control back to the main tank, but even with just auto attacking I was in the 90 range and sometimes went above. So, good thing to note that I CAN hold agro if given the correct group setup.3) New issue: I am currently working on getting my dps up. The agility spec with trample has worked wonders, and I probably won't switch back to my old spec. The main complaint I am hearing rumbles of (not being told personally) is that my dps is too low. I am now trying to get new gear that will sacrifice some of my durability for increased numbers, but I don't want to swing too far. I have also noticed that when I use a choker it appears to delay my auto attack? So, probably best to skip out on that.I think they are basing that on the shadowknight in the guild and think I can reach his numbers, and I have been working my tail off to try, but I generally parse around the level of the better geared guardian (who I assume dual wields, ). Of course, it can fall low as well when I am waiting for adds to spawn and I am just ranging the mob so that I can snag up the adds quickly. Anything with a dps mod proc I tend to use... generally use the Band of the Kunark Commander atm... will try to get others as they drop. This is an issue because I am generally not placed with a coercer, so my numbers fall fast. Working on getting my double attack and melee crit up, as well, and my double attack can be up to 97% or so with a dirge. Melee crit and dps mod are the main offenders atm. I assume that I should get stones and pots for melee crit, are there stones and pots for dps mod? I couldn't find any on the broker.Thanks again for your advice!

Boli32

12-01-2009, 04:34 AM

Agro ripping:Welcome to the world of the paladin... you will rip agro like a mofo; on zarrakon I mainly tank it over our guard simply b/c I will rip agro. Put a macro on your hotbar so you can cast amends mid fight on a certain person; and when the adds pop cast it; or when you need to grab the dragon to to curses cast it again. but otherwise do not cast it.Above all else it is easiest to stand with the Main tank at all times so if you DO grab agro you won't spin the mob.DPS:If they are basing your dps on the SK who knows what they are doing even if you are fully [Removed for Content] out you can expect roughly half of what an SK is capable of; on the whole you'll match or do more than the guardian. When they see that on the whole you can take the hits and hold agro a lot better than most tanks; they may relax up on the whole dps issue. Afterall our main job in raids is to do just that... dps is secondary.That being said; the biggest problem with pally dps is plain and simple - hitting the mob... our hit rate is appauling- this is why we almost "require" a ditrge in the group to do anythgin decent... especially if we are in front of the mob.; however if you can persuade and get into a group [Removed for Content] BOTH a troub anf a Dirge in - you'll find your dps will sky rocket as we benefit a lot from both sides of the coin.You mention increasing your autoattack moifiers and that is good but on the whole these are the main stats you'll want to get:> Base Spell> Melee Crit 90%> Double Attack 60%> DPS and Haste modifers at LEAST 100-120 in raid group; dps mod id harder to raise so look into Master Crafted Strength rings or temp adorns to help you out here.The reason base sell is so high is because on the whole our damage is based upon procs, spells and autoattack. Our self proc (blessed weapon) is based upon spell damage and is often #2 or #3 on our dps list and raising our base spell pushes this higher. likewise our best casting abilities tend to be spells so you'll see more "bang for your buck" here; + CA base is nice.. but it only effects 3 abilities you'll actually see in your parse actually doing something, oom aura, faithful cry and your DoT attack.Getting +base spell and +base CA is normally a problem; choker, T2/T3 shoudler are the main sources of this; but other than that it is mainly scout or mage loot that tends to accumulate them; so aside from those two items I woudl kepe to enhancing your autoattack more.And finally... if you'renot in offensive stance and your healers can handle it - use offensive stance.. the hit rate increase will help your dps vastly. Not only will your autoatatck damage increase but you can't fire procs on an attack if you miss. If you use the T4 armour with its 6 set you gain enough mit increase to swap into off stance all the time. If you are still worried about surviability - use your level 4 defensive stance.DPS is hard to increase on a paladin without gimping themselves out; so just be sensible with your gear choices and make sure at the end of the day you can still take the hits and items like chokers dont cause a problem. You're a tank at the end of the day and holding and surviving agro is your main job.. DPS is there but a secondary concern as long as the first two objectives are fullfilled.

TerrorFirmer

12-01-2009, 09:26 AM

Thanks, Boli.Yep, I do tank in offensive all of the time now. Have around 66.8% mit in offensive so with raid buffs I am well over 70%, so haven't been bothering with defensive for a while. Haven't noticed much of a hit in survivability, mostly just a dps drop if I do use defensive stance...which is exactly the opposite of what I am currently trying to achieve, lol.Are there any items in particular that I should try to get with +base spell damage? Still trying to get Aiden to drop the tier 3 offset shoulders. I have the tier 2 offset shoulders but seems like I am gimping myself taking off the tier 4 shoulders for those (maybe they just have itchy legendaryitis?). I have noticed that the aforementioned SK tanks with his choker on, however as I said before it seems like it messed up my auto attack because my timer goes all wonky with it on. The reason I have been trying to push for higher auto attacks is because I have seen, generally speaking, that the auto attack is about 35-45% of a paladin's parse. Anything to improve that improves a giant chunk of total dps. Likewise, when I am inaccurate, that is affecting at least that much of my parse. I am thinking of trying to get either the tank belt from Ykesha or the avatar belt with +accuracy to help this, do you think those will help? I am conditioned to run in front of whatever mob we are fighting and I'm sure that is taking its toll on my parse. For the past raid I just hung back and hit the mob's back and it seemed to help.My melee crit is fairly low atm, working to get it up. I think I will see a big gain pound per pound with the melee crit being raised. My double attack seems to be fairly workable at the moment, as long as I have the right buffs. What are your thoughts on melee crit and spell crit bonus? What are they worth, in your opinion, as a trade off for either melee or spell crit? Is 1 melee crit >/=/< 1 melee crit bonus?

Boli32

12-01-2009, 10:45 AM

Melee crit bonus is the absolute dogs behind; it allows our mythical to crit for crazy amounts. however it is useless without near to or close to 100% melee crits as possible. As such I tend to value melee crit more than double attack; but not by much.+ accuracy gear really helps; it bascially gives you a % increase in your hit rate equal to the value of the accuracy bonus. I know it doesn't exactly work like that but as a rule of thumb a dirge with 10% accuracy on his 6 set will give you as close to as I can make it a 10% increase in accuracy.As for the choker... it does NOT effect autoattack; and tbhy as long as it doens;t cause issues with healing; or survivability it is worth using. Unfortunaly there is not many items with +base spell on.. espcially not ones which I would wear outside of avatar charms; the choker (10%) T2 Shoulders (8%) T3 shoulders (9%), and grouping with a troub (10%) is prerhaps the only source of base spell you are likely to see and wish to wear.As for spell crit bonus; I love it - but I woudl take melee crit bonus over spell crit bonus easily; tho nagging jesters cap or synagism off your troubs and illys once in a while DOES help to increase your dps; especially on AoE fights.

Bruener

12-01-2009, 02:01 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>DPS:If they are basing your dps on the SK who knows what they are doing even if you are fully [Removed for Content] out you can expect roughly half of what an SK is capable of; on the whole you'll match or do more than the guardian. When they see that on the whole you can take the hits and hold agro a lot better than most tanks; they may relax up on the whole dps issue. Afterall our main job in raids is to do just that... dps is secondary.</blockquote>This statement is false. The fact of the matter is that Paladins have just about equal DPS potental on STs as SKs and a little less on AE fights. Believe me I have seen it from a few great Paladins that know what they are doing when it comes to pumping out DPS.Your guild is not wrong in expecting you to step up closer to the SK bar for DPS especially with a good group around you. Make sure you time your auto attacks since that is basically where like half of your DPS is going to come from. With gear in a group you should be max DA, max melee crit, max Spell crit, max haste and max DPS mod...especially when all your items are proc'ing.Crusader w/ BC > anybody else w/ BCThis is a hard one to convince the scout classes though and you might have to settle up with IA even though most likely it will be overkill DA. The reason BC on a Crusader is better is because flurry is mainhand only and no other class hits as hard as a Crusader with their mainhand. TSO AAs, long delay w/ max crit ensures that.

Boli32

12-01-2009, 02:58 PM

That's why I said an "Sk who knows what the hell they are doing."; I've beaten many SKs on the parse; but if they know what they're doing an SK can easily outstrip any paladin on the parse with equivilent gear; just factor in SKs get additional +base spell damage; all their CAs and Spell do double to tripple what paladin's does. If both are completly [Removed for Content] out and the pally does 12k.. the SK will do 18k. The difference is more pronouced at lower gear levels; escpecially as SKs are often buffed more as DPS classes over tank classes.Think I'm wrong have a close look on the dps parses shown .. on the other forum... 8-12k for pallys, and add about 50% on for the SK parses.As to the Battle Cry discussion; I've had this many times both on the forums and with my guild. Yes it is most effective on a crusader HOWEVER; due to the fact we're tanking and/or often in front of the mob leading to a reduction in hit rate I go by the philsophy of "crusaders get on trash, scouts get on named".

Bruener

12-01-2009, 03:23 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>That's why I said an "Sk who knows what the hell they are doing."; I've beaten many SKs on the parse; but if they know what they're doing an SK can easily outstrip any paladin on the parse with equivilent gear; just factor in SKs get additional +base spell damage; all their CAs and Spell do double to tripple what paladin's does. If both are completly [Removed for Content] out and the pally does 12k.. the SK will do 18k. The difference is more pronouced at lower gear levels; escpecially as SKs are often buffed more as DPS classes over tank classes.Think I'm wrong have a close look on the dps parses shown .. on the other forum... 8-12k for pallys, and add about 50% on for the SK parses.As to the Battle Cry discussion; I've had this many times both on the forums and with my guild. Yes it is most effective on a crusader HOWEVER; due to the fact we're tanking and/or often in front of the mob leading to a reduction in hit rate I go by the philsophy of "crusaders get on trash, scouts get on named".</blockquote>Have you looked at parses since the proc nerf? Paladins 8-12k than SK will be 8-13k. The difference is tiny. If you think about it the difference is small. SKs use spells, but the majority of their DPS still comes from auto attack, the same auto attack Paladins have. The DPS potential of spells really only make a difference on longer AE fights....hence why ST there is hardly a difference. In fact on short AE fights a Paladin will out DPS a SK because their AEs are larger damage up front while SKs have dots.So yes you are wrong, and really saying that Paladins don't have that DPS potential is a complete misconcenption, or in some cases a misdirection, to put focus on SKs.Fact: Paladin > SK survivabilityFact: Paladin > SK agroFact: Paladin = SK DPSEasy to see why people wanna misdirect that info since you see all these nerf SK posters.EDIT: your statement I changed to red is where the entire misconception goes wrong? Where exactly do DKs get more +base spell damage? And CAs do not hit for that much less than spells. The fact is itemization leans completely towards melee. There isn't a +base spell damage neck for SKs past the BTC. You can't get fighter gear with +spell crit bonus but there are plenty with +melee crit bonus.

Boli32

12-01-2009, 03:33 PM

Next time you're in game compare each Paladin CA or Spell with the equivilent SK one. On each DoT consider that with an SK mythical weapon it will increase with each tick. It actually makes them worth casting.... Yes the majority of crusaders DPS comes from autoattack and I have seen those parses on both forums. BUT if you look closely many of the SK parses autoattack is not as "valued" on the parse; which is to say in many cases their crits are lower, they crit less and in general have less extdps than paladins. On those parses they are equal with maybe SKs pulling ahead slightly; with more dps coming from Spells and CAS than pure autoattack; but I have also seen other parses where autopatatck was NOT ignored and they jump up considerably.SKs with their huge advatage in CAs/Spell damage often overlook autoatatck where as paladins who do not have such an advanatge and know we have to value our autoattack concentrate on it closing the gap between the crusaders. SKs who do NOT ignore autoattack as most seem to do parse much higher.I'm not saying paladin dps is crap or anything like that.. its respectable but SKs have and will always continue to have a large DPS advantage over paladins; and this is emphaised more in that they often get put into the dps groups rather than the tank group.Paladin Survivability is higher than SKs, and SK dps is higher than Paladins. - I would not have it any other way; and I'm not asking for nerfs... I never have done I'm just going by the facts and figures.

Bruener

12-01-2009, 03:48 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>SKs with their huge advatage in CAs/Spell damage often overlook autoatatck where as paladins who do not have such an advanatge and know we have to value our autoattack concentrate on it closing the gap between the crusaders. SKs who do NOT ignore autoattack as most seem to do parse much higher.</blockquote>Again you are way off here. It is impossible to overlook autoattack. Almost all gear is geared towards melee instead of spells. In fact, my CA AE produces more DPS by a good margin than what my spell AEs do because of the fact that gear is only sporting melee crit bonus.I parse extremely well as a SK, and I have been able to play with Paladins that know what they are doing and can parse just as high. When procs actually used base spell damage, crits, and other spell modifiers SKs had the advantage. That advantage is gone.Honestly go look at parses after the proc nerf on flames from both SKs and Paladins. The best are posting equivalent numbers on encounters. In fact the traps in Palace have had Pallies parse like 40k while I have yet to see a SK parse like that.This entire misconception about Paladins doing poor DPS needs to be thrown out the window.

Boli32

12-01-2009, 03:55 PM

I never once said "poor dps"... I said "less dps"; and explained my reasoning why that is less dps.

Bruener

12-01-2009, 05:01 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>DPS:If they are basing your dps on the SK who knows what they are doing even if you are fully [Removed for Content] out you can expect roughly half of what an SK is capable of; on the whole you'll match or do more than the guardian.</blockquote>No this is what you said, which is completely wrong. I stated that the difference in DPS between Crusaders is minimal, actually it is negligible depending on the encounter.You should have been encouraging your fellow Paladin to reach for the numbers his guild wants him to strive for. Which is DPS much closer to the SK instead of leaning towards Guard DPS.This statement alone makes it sound like Paladins DPS the same as Guards and that is a false statement. The TRUTH is that Paladins DPS just as much as SKs most of the time, and on long AE fights only DPS slightly less while on short AE fights they can parse higher.This is the entire problem. Hiding behind this misconception of Paladins sacrificing DPS to have more survivability is false.I am not saying that Paladins don't deserve it.....until they start jumping on the nerf SK band-wagon.

Boli32

12-01-2009, 05:47 PM

Actualy I made a point saying the difference is more pronouced at lower levers; espcially as the SKs tend to be put in the more DPS oriented groups; the gap DOES narrow; but not to the degree you are saying; Considering exactly the same gear, buffs and skill; an SK will ALWAYS out DPS a Paladin.And Bruener, you have got nerfs on the brain, I never even brought it up I just made a point that the Sk will on the whole beat him on the parse so whilst he shoudl improve his dps he shouldn't get all worked up about not managing to solidly beat the SK on the parse every time. b/c quite frankly if the SK knows what they are doing this will never happen.Paladins do decent dps; much better this expansion than previous but to say they have anything approaching the CAs and Spells that SKs get in long/short/medium/zonewide encounters is a lie. oh.. and incidentally... damage shields warp a parse significantly especially on AoE fights so you really have to consider who is tanking the mobs.

TerrorFirmer

12-01-2009, 06:50 PM

Nobody was calling for a SK nerf. Nobody was saying SK are overpowered. All I said is how can I get my dps up to higher levels? Thanks to Boli for answering, and also your initial comments about BC were interesting because I have always thought that as well but it is often put on anyone else but me.Lets just try to stay civil, please.

Bruener

12-01-2009, 11:30 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actualy I made a point saying the difference is more pronouced at lower levers; espcially as the SKs tend to be put in the more DPS oriented groups; the gap DOES narrow; but not to the degree you are saying; Considering exactly the same gear, buffs and skill; an SK will ALWAYS out DPS a Paladin.Yes it narrows to exactly the degree I am talking about. A SK will not ALWAYS out DPS a Paladin...that is exactly how close it is. Most of the time, yes a SK will probably edge the parse. But unlike you I posted about the reality of where Paladins parse in relation to SKs, while you are trying to lead people to believe that Paladins parse as low as Guards...which is completely false. And in fact....on short AE fights and on some ST fights a Paladin can out parse SKs.And Bruener, you have got nerfs on the brain, I never even brought it up I just made a point that the Sk will on the whole beat him on the parse so whilst he shoudl improve his dps he shouldn't get all worked up about not managing to solidly beat the SK on the parse every time. b/c quite frankly if the SK knows what they are doing this will never happen.Again did you re-read what you posted the first time that I corrected? You were claiming that Paladins do half of the DPS a SK can do. However in todays game Paladins do about 95% the DPS SKs can do. Paladins do decent dps; much better this expansion than previous but to say they have anything approaching the CAs and Spells that SKs get in long/short/medium/zonewide encounters is a lie. oh.. and incidentally... damage shields warp a parse significantly especially on AoE fights so you really have to consider who is tanking the mobs.Paladins do better DPS than DW'ing Warriors. With the way gear is designed SOE still is making everything for tanks increase the melee side without touching the spell side. Some of my CAs have overtaken my spells as doing more DPS. So, yes Paladin CAs do approach SK spells for DPS. And really I have no clue where you are going with the damage shield warps parse statement. The fact is you can take either Crusader and throw them in an AE fight and they will do close to the same DPS. A Paladin tanking has the same damage shields that a SK would.</blockquote>Lol. Terror here is the thing. You should have higher DPS and you should be parsing close to the SK. Your guild is right in their expectations from you and many top Paladins will tell you the same thing. Honestly I am suprised Boli is trying to make the claims that Paladin DPS is so low because I figured he would know exactly what a well played Paladin can parse. If you want I can give you some names of Paladins that will tell you how to increase your DPS to the point it should be without pretending that Paladin DPS doesn't come close to SK DPS.

TerrorFirmer

12-02-2009, 12:17 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actualy I made a point saying the difference is more pronouced at lower levers; espcially as the SKs tend to be put in the more DPS oriented groups; the gap DOES narrow; but not to the degree you are saying; Considering exactly the same gear, buffs and skill; an SK will ALWAYS out DPS a Paladin.Yes it narrows to exactly the degree I am talking about. A SK will not ALWAYS out DPS a Paladin...that is exactly how close it is. Most of the time, yes a SK will probably edge the parse. But unlike you I posted about the reality of where Paladins parse in relation to SKs, while you are trying to lead people to believe that Paladins parse as low as Guards...which is completely false. And in fact....on short AE fights and on some ST fights a Paladin can out parse SKs.And Bruener, you have got nerfs on the brain, I never even brought it up I just made a point that the Sk will on the whole beat him on the parse so whilst he shoudl improve his dps he shouldn't get all worked up about not managing to solidly beat the SK on the parse every time. b/c quite frankly if the SK knows what they are doing this will never happen.Again did you re-read what you posted the first time that I corrected? You were claiming that Paladins do half of the DPS a SK can do. However in todays game Paladins do about 95% the DPS SKs can do. Paladins do decent dps; much better this expansion than previous but to say they have anything approaching the CAs and Spells that SKs get in long/short/medium/zonewide encounters is a lie. oh.. and incidentally... damage shields warp a parse significantly especially on AoE fights so you really have to consider who is tanking the mobs.Paladins do better DPS than DW'ing Warriors. With the way gear is designed SOE still is making everything for tanks increase the melee side without touching the spell side. Some of my CAs have overtaken my spells as doing more DPS. So, yes Paladin CAs do approach SK spells for DPS. And really I have no clue where you are going with the damage shield warps parse statement. The fact is you can take either Crusader and throw them in an AE fight and they will do close to the same DPS. A Paladin tanking has the same damage shields that a SK would.</blockquote>Lol. Terror here is the thing. You should have higher DPS and you should be parsing close to the SK. Your guild is right in their expectations from you and many top Paladins will tell you the same thing. Honestly I am suprised Boli is trying to make the claims that Paladin DPS is so low because I figured he would know exactly what a well played Paladin can parse. If you want I can give you some names of Paladins that will tell you how to increase your DPS to the point it should be without pretending that Paladin DPS doesn't come close to SK DPS.</blockquote>Well, here is the thing. I don't have the +base damage items the SK has (yet). I don't have a dirge, usually, nor a coercer. I get that my dps should be higher, but I am not going to say that it is completely due to my lack of ability, either. Sure, I am still learning, that is why I am asking others what might be wrong. I use all of my combat arts in the right order (debuff, swift attack, big hits, little hits, re-debuff when necessary), time my auto attack, yet I don't get these huge numbers you are suggesting I SHOULD have. I am not quite sure what else there is to do apart from gearing up more, and that is something that will take time, in order to reach the DPS of someone fully geared. I don't see what your purpose in this thread is, if it is only to "point me in other paladins' directions?" This is a thread in a paladin forum, not a SK forum. If you have never actually played a level 80 paladin, I am thinking I'll take Boli's word over yours. If you have, why did you betray to SK?I also went over to check how close the parses were at flames, and the parses post lu 52 were much higher for SKs, which is what I would expect. I am not sure what your issue is? Nobody cares that SK have high dps and are great tanks, and I am not calling for nerfs, so what is the deal? I know paladins can reach high dps levels by gimping their survivability. That is common knowledge. But I am wondering why I shouldn't play on my strengths instead of gimping myself?As for what I plan on doing:1) raise stats through itemization. need to raise melee crit higher, and double attack. need more items with dps mod. Many slots (belt, earrings, neck, wrists, charms, ranged, back) can be upgraded without sacrificing survivability.2) Find some base spell / combat art enhancing items. Evil charms possibly... tier 3 offset shoulders, etc, all might help here. +base procs might work, too.3) Try out different gear sets on the practice dummy.4) Get more gear with procs.Hopefully that will be enough, but it will take time to acquire the gear. Until then they can either be patient with me or ask me to leave, I'd hope they'd do the first considering I am a new recruit.

Bruener

12-02-2009, 03:08 PM

<cite>TerrorFirmer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, here is the thing. I don't have the +base damage items the SK has (yet). I don't have a dirge, usually, nor a coercer. I get that my dps should be higher, but I am not going to say that it is completely due to my lack of ability, either. Sure, I am still learning, that is why I am asking others what might be wrong. I use all of my combat arts in the right order (debuff, swift attack, big hits, little hits, re-debuff when necessary), time my auto attack, yet I don't get these huge numbers you are suggesting I SHOULD have. I am not quite sure what else there is to do apart from gearing up more, and that is something that will take time, in order to reach the DPS of someone fully geared. I don't see what your purpose in this thread is, if it is only to "point me in other paladins' directions?" This is a thread in a paladin forum, not a SK forum. If you have never actually played a level 80 paladin, I am thinking I'll take Boli's word over yours. If you have, why did you betray to SK?I also went over to check how close the parses were at flames, and the parses post lu 52 were much higher for SKs, which is what I would expect. I am not sure what your issue is? Nobody cares that SK have high dps and are great tanks, and I am not calling for nerfs, so what is the deal? I know paladins can reach high dps levels by gimping their survivability. That is common knowledge. But I am wondering why I shouldn't play on my strengths instead of gimping myself?As for what I plan on doing:1) raise stats through itemization. need to raise melee crit higher, and double attack. need more items with dps mod. Many slots (belt, earrings, neck, wrists, charms, ranged, back) can be upgraded without sacrificing survivability.2) Find some base spell / combat art enhancing items. Evil charms possibly... tier 3 offset shoulders, etc, all might help here. +base procs might work, too.3) Try out different gear sets on the practice dummy.4) Get more gear with procs.Hopefully that will be enough, but it will take time to acquire the gear. Until then they can either be patient with me or ask me to leave, I'd hope they'd do the first considering I am a new recruit.</blockquote>The point of me posting in this thread was to correct mis-information. Obviously if you are under-geared and don't have as good of a group set-up than your DPS is going to be lacking. But, do not be mistaken a Paladin can do probably 95% of the DPS a SK can do. And I am pretty sure that you didn't check out parses on flames post proc-nerf...believe me I know because I am one of the SKs in the last few pages that posted parses. You can go take a look at Jeal on the Paladin forums and on similar fights his DPS is right where SKs are. I know how he parses because we were also guilded together at one time and parsed close to the same numbers....which is at the high end for Crusaders.Yes I do know what I am talking about. And honestly if you refuse to acknowledge what a player that is up there doing it and seeing it has to offer that is your own choice.TBH really the 4 items that you bulleted to work on is a great start and will get you in the right direction. But if I were you I would never settle for half the DPS of the SK and instead would be looking to be closer to 95% of the DPS of the SK...because that is your real potential.

TerrorFirmer

12-02-2009, 03:16 PM

Thanks man, just so you know I would never settle, and I intend on getting 105% of the dps a SK can do one day ;p All in good time.

TerrorFirmer

12-02-2009, 08:06 PM

*waves at guild* :-p *looks at the title of this thread* I wish I had that aggro problem earlier on Tusker enraged! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />