The Predator AA Tree

[Sydares]

<p>Predator AA tree:While you're revamping AAs, please take a SERIOUS look at Stamina and Wisdom lines.The stamina line is great for assassins, but because of the puzzling lack of ranged autoattack support on Surrounding Attacks, it's entirely useless for the only other class that shares this AA tree.</p><p>The wisdom line - does anyone actually spec into this? Again, if they do, they're not rangers.As a ranger, there's no "Ifs" "ands" or "buts" about it, you only have One (1) viable spec for the predator tree [Strength: 4/6/4/8/1 Agi: 4/8/4/8/1 Int: 4/4/4/8/0 or minor variations therein according to flavor] , and that's boring as sin.</p><p>What can you do? 1) Unlink the Predator tree. Assassins and Rangers are simply too different to share any of the same AAs.2) Make it so the desirable effects WORK FOR BOTH CLASSES, and that there are desirable variations for varying playstyles for both classes. Currently, it's a complete mess that favors assassins to a ridiculous degree, but even they have limited options because so much of this tree is useless fluff.</p>

[Walford]

<p>seems reasonable to me. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /> emphasis on the word 'SERIOUS' look.</p>

[Lethe5683]

<p><cite>Sydares wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The wisdom line - does anyone actually spec into this? Again, if they do, they're not <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">rangers</span>. <span style="color: #00ccff;">DPS</span></p></blockquote><p>The wisdom line is really pretty crappy for assassins too except for soloing.</p>

[Sydares]

<p><cite>Trisscuit@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Sydares wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The wisdom line - does anyone actually spec into this? Again, if they do, they're not <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">rangers</span>. <span style="color: #00ccff;">DPS</span></p></blockquote><p>The wisdom line is really pretty crappy for assassins too except for soloing.</p></blockquote><p>I'd heard rumblings that the occasional assassin took it - I wouldn't touch it, myself, but I tried not to make sweeping generalizations where they didn't exist.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p>May be boring to not have that variation but in reality for any class to take full advantage of an aspect of their class there is only one spec. For a sk or pally they only have one spec that best utilizes tanking ability except for maybe minor adjustments for skills caps. But they can use a different spec for more DPS, just the same rangers COULD use a different spec for for more defense, it just wouldn't be worth using it in anything outside soloing. In terms of 'specs' and this goes for all MMO's that use this kind of system, if you are min/maxing there is only one overall spec unless they somehow managed to get perfect balance between skills which I have yet to see. Other specs may perform better in various uncommon situations, but there is usually a spec that works best in more situations than others. For rangers and predator tree its just more clear.</p><p>I suppose you could argue that the difference in quality of specs is much greater than other classes, but that doesn't really matter. For example say they changed the wisdom line to the point where is was just a little worse than strength line, would you switch? Or would you keep using the still better strength line? Even if they made it perfectly equal it would just be redundant, instead of people saying 'oh definitely get strength' they would just say 'get strength or wisdom, doesn't matter which one'</p><p>In the end for this type of stuff, there will always be a min/max spec, and the rest of the stuff is just for personal preference or fluff for people who don't care much for min/max'ing. If you think only having one spec as the best and a bunch of fluff is boring, imagine having dozens of skills that have the same amount of desirability to the point where it doesn't matter what you pick. Would be like a person trying to play with skill and another smashing the keyboard and getting the same results.</p>

[Sydares]

<p><cite>Neiloch wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>May be boring to not have that variation but in reality for any class to take full advantage of an aspect of their class there is only one spec. For a sk or pally they only have one spec that best utilizes tanking ability except for maybe minor adjustments for skills caps. But they can use a different spec for more DPS, just the same rangers COULD use a different spec for for more defense, it just wouldn't be worth using it in anything outside soloing. In terms of 'specs' and this goes for all MMO's that use this kind of system, if you are min/maxing there is only one overall spec unless they somehow managed to get perfect balance between skills which I have yet to see. Other specs may perform better in various uncommon situations, but there is usually a spec that works best in more situations than others. For rangers and predator tree its just more clear.</p><p>I suppose you could argue that the difference in quality of specs is much greater than other classes, but that doesn't really matter. For example say they changed the wisdom line to the point where is was just a little worse than strength line, would you switch? Or would you keep using the still better strength line? Even if they made it perfectly equal it would just be redundant, instead of people saying 'oh definitely get strength' they would just say 'get strength or wisdom, doesn't matter which one'</p><p>In the end for this type of stuff, there will always be a min/max spec, and the rest of the stuff is just for personal preference or fluff for people who don't care much for min/max'ing. If you think only having one spec as the best and a bunch of fluff is boring, imagine having dozens of skills that have the same amount of desirability to the point where it doesn't matter what you pick. Would be like a person trying to play with skill and another smashing the keyboard and getting the same results.</p></blockquote><p>While I understand what you're trying to say here, I fundamentally disagree. I know that there will always be a min/max spec, but as it stands, there are few options that are even viable to consider. I have never felt regret at being unable to go down a line that I did not go down, nor did I feel as though I offered anything unique over another ranger who had specced slightly differently.</p><p>The purpose of AAs shold not simply be to [Removed for Content] out your currently existing role. In an ideal situation, AAs should open up new oppurtunities and playstyles that were previously unavailable.</p><p>I'm not at issue with the fact that our existing AAs are too good or too bad, simply that there really aren't <em>options</em> because the ones that no is really taking are so pathetically awful that no one would ever consider them.</p><p>It's not a simple matter of it being a tradeoff or a difference in function, they are literally so awful that you would generally have to have no understanding of the game to take them. Wisdom is pathetic. Intelligence has become (now that spellcrit is dead) a boring last resort because other lines happen to be worse than it to take.</p><p>Because if there's no real choice or impact to AAs, they're not really AAs. They're just skill-ups, and that's hideously boring.</p>

[Neiloch]

I see what your saying, but again what you want just isn't that common, all across MMO's. Closest thing i can think of on EQ2 is healers able to spec for more defense and DPS, but like I said this usually [Removed for Content] their healing pretty hardcore and doesn't make them a viable tank or DPS class, just nice for soloing. If the AA's could be so that they can basically change your archetype there would be no need for classes, as well as causing confusion for both the player and people they play with. Rangers and Assassins are DPS classes, if they got AA's that were so dramatic that they could buff as well as bard or tank as well as fighter, well they wouldn't be a ranger or assassin anymore. Just brings me back to my question though, if they made some line we didn't use better, but still not as good as the ones we use thus closing the gap in quality significantly, would you even switch?

[Baynne]

<p>My issue with AAs is that almost every class has a "cookie-cutter" spec, meaning there is no point in specing any other way.  For example, before they changed the warrior AAs, you pretty much had to spec stamina for double attack and use a goofy looking buckler in order to do decent damage.  what sux about that is SoE finally changed it, and now you still have to spec sta for DA, but for 1/3 the amount you got before with a dinner plate on your arm.  another good example of cookie-cutter specs you cant avoid is a sorceror.  you pretty much HAVE to spec agi/wis for the end abilities and str for spell crit.  taking sta is an option for solo but once you hit RoK content it doesn't help all that much, and i dont think anyone has ever taken the int line for a couple intertwining reasons.  If you spec int, you lose a ton of DPS, which means you arent generating aggro anyway, so you dont even need the abilities in the int line to drop aggro. </p><p>as for the predator lines... wow lol.  i just logged my ranger on to check it out.  i spec'd agi first for casting speed... looking at the end ability in str, i do not need it yet as i have no abilities with a 2 minute reuse (only lvl 31 atm).  in the stamina line... i personally dont melee unless i really have to... and usually only when soloing and the mob gets to me or in a group and i run out of ranged CAs.  in wis the only ability even worth looking at is Obfuscation for the extra damage on the next stealth attack... unfortunately you have to grind through 12 points in 3 other useless AAs to get there.  rangers already have several ways to reduce the hate generated... it is my opinion that all AAs should be geared toward the class' existing role.  I think it would be cool for maybe one of the lines to add a buff that gives our ranged attacks added elemental damage or another that buffs our ranged attack damage or speed.  There are plenty of ways to give us plenty of choices that are all viable and useful. </p><p>I'm not even sure i made any sense, so my apologies if i did not lol.</p>

[Neiloch]

Thats the problem, when making AA type skills they can only go one of two ways. 1. Make skills with varying use which will result in cookie cutter, min/max specs 2. Make all skills equal or close to it resulting in no forethought or knowledge needed in creating a useful spec and it would be more fluff than anything else. Though I have to agree AA skills should be strongly geared towards a classes existing role if not further separating them from other classes. Adding skills that go against their primary function only serves to provide an opportunity for people to [Removed for Content] their character. Though maybe thats the min/max'er in me talking hehe.

[Sydares]

<p>Well, it strikes me as puzzling that there exists such a possibility to invest in these extremely awful decisions that - until you get a chance to thoroughly test or someone whaps you upside the head for it - you have no logical way of figuring out. Most rangers by now know that the stamina line won't let you have a chance to hit other targets with your arrows. I'm assuming a technical limitation there that they haven't been bothered to work around, but I digress. It's especially prevalent in the shared AA trees - my poor SK needed to be laughed at before I found out that the heal crit AA is useless for them due to the fact that the game treats 'tap' abilities based on the damage crits. I'd always known this was the case for rangers, but it slipped my mind on speccing my baby SK.</p><p>Anyhow, you're absolutely right. I'm being idealistic, perhaps, but I feel this is the time to bring up the red-headed stepchild AA trees, and I hope to get into the beta for SF so I can further rant my head off about them before anything goes live.</p>

[Neiloch]

They did better with shared AA skills in the TSO table, mainly because they were more generalized and applied to fundamental aspects of classes such as stances or just flatout increased a specific stat. Unfortunately this can work better for other classes much more than assassin/ranger. Assassins are closer to rogues than ranger yet we still share AA skills. For TSO I was in beta and helped push hard with fellow rangers for changes that actually made it through, before that Explosive Arrow wasn't an AE and the Hidden Embers improvement AA in TSO was a improvement for Immobilizing Lunge (root attack), and Arrow Reclamation was a skil lto summon [Removed for Content] poor arrows, and think focus Aim got changed from beta to live as well. So hopefully some smart rangers can get into beta and help with the new AA's as well. unfortunately if they are shared we may find ourselves in a tug-of-war with assassins.

[Lethe5683]

<p><cite>Neiloch wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>So hopefully some smart rangers can get into beta and help with the new AA's as well. unfortunately if they are shared we may find ourselves in a tug-of-war with assassins.</blockquote><p>I'm an assassin and don't think that we need any changes for our predator AA trees since we already have more than 1 viable option.  STA line for better AoE dps and INT line for better ST DPS.</p>

[glowsintheda]

<p>which is exactly the problem, we don't even have the option of the sta line for better AE DPS because it doesn't affect our autoattack.  They make all this stuff that works for assassins and not for rangers, and then give it to us as an option when they know we won't use it.  They seriously need to make it so that flurry and ae attack both work on ranged autoattack. otherwise we will continue to be presented with shared AA lines that offer us things we can not use.</p>

[Lethe5683]

<p><cite>glowsinthedark wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>which is exactly the problem, we don't even have the option of the sta line for better AE DPS because it doesn't affect our autoattack.  They make all this stuff that works for assassins and not for rangers, and then give it to us as an option when they know we won't use it.  They seriously need to make it so that flurry and ae attack both work on ranged autoattack. otherwise we will continue to be presented with shared AA lines that offer us things we can not use.</p></blockquote><p>That might be hard for them to do, and would be fairly overpowered as well.  They should take one of the useless lines like WIS and make it into a ranger only line for increasing AoE DPS through other means.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p>Never saw why they couldn't apply some modifier to the AE thing so it evens out with bow attacks. Obviously if it worked just like melee but with our bow it would be OP'd but they can lower the frequency when using a bow or lower the damage of the AE portion of the attacks so its simply not the full amount of auto attack damage. Also make it AE outward from your main target like Natural Selection does instead of from the character.</p><p>In general rangers need a fast recast/frequent AE attack if they are going to keep putting in this amount of AE fights in the future.</p>

[glowsintheda]

<p>I realize that it is hard, if not impossible for them to justify giving it to rangers, but the main point of my post was that there we have an assassin saying all is well with predator tree, there are plenty of options, when there really aren't any for rangers.  I can see the same thing going forward with the new expansion where they add a line for flurry or more AE attack and the assassins will be pulling for it big time and we will wind up with nothing worthwhile and be told to suck it up like we have so far.  I've recall seeing something somewhere to the effect that we should just suck it up, that we have the option to use the AE autoattack, just have to use melee auto attack, we just choose not to.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p>Yeah i remember someone saying jsut get the AE auto attack than melee lmfao. Then again with them merging crit and double attack if they do add stuff like those we won't get left out. Be nice if they made a bow AE and merged it with a modifier of like .25 so for every 4% of melee ae bow gets 1%</p>

[Sydares]

<p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>That might be hard for them to do, and would be fairly overpowered as well.  They should take one of the useless lines like WIS and make it into a ranger only line for increasing AoE DPS through other means.</p></blockquote><p>See, I think that's a fair compromise. Turning one of the underutilized trees into something like that.</p>

[-=Hoss=-]

<p>I'm pretty sure that originally the agi line was supposed to be for rangers.  The devs just didn't realize that casting speed was pwnsauce for everyone.  In fact, almost no one seemed to realize it until like RoK came out. </p>

[Neiloch]

Bottom line is almost nothing got put in for rangers if other scouts/assassins didnt also benefit from it, but only until recently has there been stuff tailored for rangers. In a way it makes sense because if something is made for rangers only 1/24 of the classes benefit and I seriously doubt rangers make up 1/24 of the 'main character' population. Just another argument for the crit merges, hopefully it will apply to old AA skills as well.

[Kenstin1983]

<p>What exactly does Perfectionist do for Rangers? It says any combart art with a re-use timer of 2 minutes or more gets that timer reduced by 50% and increases the damage. Do rangers have a lot of combat arts with a 2 minute or longer respawn timer?</p>

[Neiloch]

<p>From what i can remember it helps Sniper shot and storm of arrows, both of which are very nice parsing CA's for rangers (especially storm of arrows imo). It should also apply to arrow barrage but I think there is still a bug where it's not working properly right now.</p>

[Kenstin1983]

<p>Wow that's huge. With Perfectionist sniper shot goes from a 15 minute cooldown to 7.5 minutes, and gets its damage increased by 15%. That's 2 points well spent. Thanks for the help. I'm still fairly new to Eq2 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Just started my ranger 3 weeks ago.</p>

[Kvik]

<p>Would be great if it did indeed half the reuse time, but it doesnt, My Storm is down to 2 min and Sniper down to 10 with perfectionist.  Got to love Sony math....</p>

[Noob1974]

<p>The problem with the KOS Tree is that with STR,AGI ( Endline Ability),STA and INT there were 4 suitable line for assasins whiel they were only AGI, INT (till poison proc nerf) and partly STR for Melee Crit bonus because our best CA DPS wise, zonewides, is our Melee Dot.</p><p>Secondary Assasins are no longer predators officially but still share the predator tree. They are rogues and should therefore use the rogue tree, which brings the problem can you have a KOS Tree for only class......</p>

[Ranja]

<p><cite>Noob1974 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The problem with the KOS Tree is that with STR,AGI ( Endline Ability),STA and INT there were 4 suitable line for assasins whiel they were only AGI, INT (till poison proc nerf) and partly STR for Melee Crit bonus because our best CA DPS wise, zonewides, is our Melee Dot.</p><p>Secondary Assasins are no longer predators officially but still share the predator tree. They are rogues and should therefore use the rogue tree, which brings the problem can you have a KOS Tree for only class......</p></blockquote><p>Get ready to be disappointed. Someone leaked the new AA over on that other board. Rangers get screwed big time again. They gave an endline ability in the KoS tree that basically only benefits assassins. And our AA simply upgrade the damage on our already useless CAs. 10% to stream! [Removed for Content], get rid of that. 15% to immobilizing lunge, 10% to storm, linger duration on cheap shot, more snare on snaring shot. Compared to the assassin AAs,  they are teh suk.</p><p>Thank god I quit this game so I don't need to go through this b.s again.</p>

[Hexus]

<p>If any of you developers read these forums, send me a PM or tell in game.  Obviously no one who designs these abilities or AA's has ever played a ranger or has any idea of how the class works.</p><p>I can only hope that the AA tree in SF gets changed from what's currently listed on those "other" forums, because what you've given me is a ticket to betray and finish the other mythical quest line.</p><p>10% damage increase to Stream of Arrows?  Are you kidding me?  You could give that spell a 50% increase to damage and it STILL WOULD NOT BE WORTH USING.  Remove the stun/stifle and make it AE, give it 25-35% increase, and maybe then we'll talk about putting it back on a hot bar.</p><p>I can't believe that there's anyone that even remotely understands how rangers work who designs this game, the primary problem being that they are the ONLY ranged scout class.</p><p>I would almost prefer them be removed from the game than relegated to this, and I've been playing a ranger non-stop since Beta EQ 1.</p><p>Hexus</p>

[Ranja]

<p><cite>Hexus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If any of you developers read these forums, send me a PM or tell in game.  Obviously no one who designs these abilities or AA's has ever played a ranger or has any idea of how the class works.</p><p>I can only hope that the AA tree in SF gets changed from what's currently listed on those "other" forums, because what you've given me is a ticket to betray and finish the other mythical quest line.</p><p>10% damage increase to Stream of Arrows?  Are you kidding me?  You could give that spell a 50% increase to damage and it STILL WOULD NOT BE WORTH USING.  Remove the stun/stifle and make it AE, give it 25-35% increase, and maybe then we'll talk about putting it back on a hot bar.</p><p>I can't believe that there's anyone that even remotely understands how rangers work who designs this game, the primary problem being that they are the ONLY ranged scout class.</p><p>I would almost prefer them be removed from the game than relegated to this, and I've been playing a ranger non-stop since Beta EQ 1.</p><p>Hexus</p></blockquote><p>the endline abiltiy in the predator tree allows the predator to bypass stealth requirements for their CAs. So all those hard hitting stealthed CAs rangers have.....wait we don't have any, those are all assassin CAs. yipee!</p><p>Yay we also get an AA that increases our base auto-attack modifer - for melee attacks only!!! Yay again!</p><p>Let's see they also improved our hawk dive to siphon more hate!! Yay again!</p><p>We do however get anothe AOE CA which is nice. Pretty low damage but at least it is something new.</p>

[-=Hoss=-]

<p>Nevermind</p><p>Grats on your incoming ban.</p>

[Kiara]

<p><cite>Ranja wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Get ready to be disappointed. Someone leaked the new AA over on that other board. Rangers get screwed big time again. They gave an endline ability in the KoS tree that basically only benefits assassins. And our AA simply upgrade the damage on our already useless CAs. 10% to stream! [Removed for Content], get rid of that. 15% to immobilizing lunge, 10% to storm, linger duration on cheap shot, more snare on snaring shot. Compared to the assassin AAs,  they are teh suk.</p><p>Thank god I quit this game so I don't need to go through this b.s again.</p></blockquote><p>Someone leaked already obsolete information from beta where things are constantly being changed and tweaked.</p><p>The info on that site is already wrong.</p><p>Unless you're in beta and actively testing and helping get these things tweaked, I strongly suggest ignoring the leaks.</p>

[Ranja]

<p><cite>-=Hoss=- wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Nevermind</p><p>Grats on your incoming ban.</p></blockquote><p>Like I care. This game went to $#%%^ a long time ago especially for rangers. My sub is up end of month and I have not logged in for a couple of months.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p>lol at the leaked 'info' in this thread, if you can even call it that at this point.</p>

[-=Hoss=-]

<p>Really interesting that the thread wasn't even locked.  LOL</p><p>Guess you're not getting banned afterall.  So I'll just go ahead and say you were way off the mark.</p>

[Ranja]

<p><cite>-=Hoss=- wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Really interesting that the thread wasn't even locked.  LOL</p><p>Guess you're not getting banned afterall.  So I'll just go ahead and say you were way off the mark.</p></blockquote><p>I hope I am. But at this point after 5 years of this, even if they are different I am sure they are just as bad.</p>

[-=Hoss=-]

<p>5 years?  Dude, rangers have not been getting the short shaft for 5 years.  Past couple expansions, mybe, but not since the game released.  Since release they've been one of the most favored classes of all time.  The uniquness of the fact that they were ranged, yet not casters is whats made the swings pretty wild. </p>

[Ranja]

<p><cite>-=Hoss=- wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>5 years?  Dude, rangers have not been getting the short shaft for 5 years.  Past couple expansions, mybe, but not since the game released.  Since release they've been one of the most favored classes of all time.  The uniquness of the fact that they were ranged, yet not casters is whats made the swings pretty wild. </p></blockquote><p>We sucked on release. Way underpowered and weak sauce solo'ing. We were gods in DoF. That lasted a year. KoS crushed us with the proc change and we got no other compensation. EoF we and assassins were fairly balanced. RoK and TSO we became second rate DPS.</p><p> And we have probably been nerfed more than any other class in the game because of PvP. Not to mention the horrible itemization we have to put up with because of short sighted item designers. And the fact that we get screwed on most every buff in the game that either buffs the melee counterpart more or completely ignores buffing ranged.</p><p>So yea for about 2 years of the 5 we were balanced. Do you even play a ranger?</p>

[Neiloch]

I'll agree we tend to get the short end of the stick but it doesn't seem nearly as bad as people seem to portray most of the time. At least it seems that way to me, I'm almost never beat by enchanters unless its a severe fluke. Summoners beat me on huge AE fights but I beat them otherwise. Feel I'm about a 2nd or 3rd when it comes to overall DPS though. Which wouldnt be a huge problem if we brought something else to raid besides DPS unlike the classes who can beat me on the parse. Itemization is going to be fixed by stat merges which will in turn fix the problem of range/melee buffs save for flurry and AoE auto attack.

[Carpediem]

<p><cite>Neiloch@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I'll agree we tend to get the short end of the stick but it doesn't seem nearly as bad as people seem to portray most of the time. At least it seems that way to me, I'm almost never beat by enchanters unless its a severe fluke. Summoners beat me on huge AE fights but I beat them otherwise. Feel I'm about a 2nd or 3rd when it comes to overall DPS though. Which wouldnt be a huge problem if we brought something else to raid besides DPS unlike the classes who can beat me on the parse. Itemization is going to be fixed by stat merges which will in turn fix the problem of range/melee buffs save for flurry and AoE auto attack.</blockquote><p>The problem is, if we still suck when these itemization changes happen we won't get gear unless it's a DKP guild. Right now we don't see alot of gear but a good deal of the gear we do get is by default because it has ranged stats on it and no other class wants it.</p><p>What happens when we share that gear pool with all other scouts and our class sucks at dps? Getting gear every once in a while out of pitty doesn't sound like alot of fun.</p>

[Neiloch]

Well I can't speak to that really since I am in a DKP guild and have 100% attendance. Other guilds I was in kind of 'took turns' with loot with exceptions for main tanks and main tank healers. The consensus is right now, rangers Auto attack isn't higher than others scouts auto attack anymore, but our CA damage is still lower than there's in comparison, so need a overall boost to our CA damage that isn't some AA skill or piece of equipment, an innate increase in CA damage/DPS.

[Lethe5683]

<p><cite>Kvik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Would be great if it did indeed half the reuse time, but it doesnt, My Storm is down to 2 min and Sniper down to 10 with perfectionist.  Got to love Sony math....</p></blockquote><p>There's nothing wrong with their math.  They never said that it halved the reuse time, they said it decreases reuse time by 50% which it does.</p>

[Noob1974]

<p>The biggest problem with the ranger class is that we are the only class that are not allwoed by devs to do our job namely T1 dps. We are the only DPS class with a dmg penalty and because of that, as Neiloch said before, our AA isnt that big plus anymore.</p><p>Secondary i started raiding in KOS so i can't speak for DOF. But i know in EOF we had a better tree than assasins and the only time my class was actually fun to play and needed in raids , especially with the rigid scale bow.</p><p>Without going into any details of this so called leaked "info"and judging by the STATUS Quo of the info , there are two points i want to point at.</p><p>First all endline abilities in the new KOS tree benefits assasins MORE!!! than ranger.</p><p>Secondary the endline ability in EOF tells you whats wrong with our class. Devs didnt come up with something new so they " copy and paste" the TSO Endline ability and change the dot/proc only.</p><p>With changes to Stream of Arrows, was said before Beta  so no NDA break here, it seems devs cannot come up with something new and inventive so they make us what an AE DPS class?</p><p>When i spoke to ranger i know, they said assasins do up to 10k dps more with the new trees  and have utility in form of the hate -transfer.</p><p>Since im not in beta, i hope the guys who are in BETA and  know the class can convince xelgad & co to come up with better Endline abilities and give us something new, raid desireability and worthwhile.</p>

[Lethe5683]

<p><cite>Noob1974 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The biggest problem with the ranger class is that we are the only class that are not allwoed by devs to do our job namely T1 dps. We are the only DPS class with a dmg penalty and because of that, as Neiloch said before, our AA isnt that big plus anymore.</p><p>Secondary i started raiding in KOS so i can't speak for DOF. But i know in EOF we had a better tree than assasins and the only time my class was actually fun to play and needed in raids , especially with the rigid scale bow.</p><p>Without going into any details of this so called leaked "info"and judging by the STATUS Quo of the info , there are two points i want to point at.</p><p>First all endline abilities in the new KOS tree benefits assasins MORE!!! than ranger.</p><p>Secondary the endline ability in EOF tells you whats wrong with our class. Devs didnt come up with something new so they " copy and paste" the TSO Endline ability and change the dot/proc only.</p><p>With changes to Stream of Arrows, was said before Beta  so no NDA break here, it seems devs cannot come up with something new and inventive so they make us what an AE DPS class?</p><p>When i spoke to ranger i know, they said assasins do up to 10k dps more with the new trees  and have utility in form of the hate -transfer.</p><p>Since im not in beta, i hope the guys who are in BETA and  know the class can convince xelgad & co to come up with better Endline abilities and give us something new, raid desireability and worthwhile.</p></blockquote><p>I know rangers have problems but first of all the stat consolidation will help considerably.  Second the "leaked" beta achivements are not worth paying any attention too since as kiara said...</p><p><cite>Kiara wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Unless you're in beta and actively testing and helping get these things tweaked, I strongly suggest ignoring the leaks.</p></blockquote><p>The stuff on beta most likely chages pretty often and speculating on incorrect information doesn't help.</p>

[Ranja]

<p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Noob1974 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The biggest problem with the ranger class is that we are the only class that are not allwoed by devs to do our job namely T1 dps. We are the only DPS class with a dmg penalty and because of that, as Neiloch said before, our AA isnt that big plus anymore.</p><p>Secondary i started raiding in KOS so i can't speak for DOF. But i know in EOF we had a better tree than assasins and the only time my class was actually fun to play and needed in raids , especially with the rigid scale bow.</p><p>Without going into any details of this so called leaked "info"and judging by the STATUS Quo of the info , there are two points i want to point at.</p><p>First all endline abilities in the new KOS tree benefits assasins MORE!!! than ranger.</p><p>Secondary the endline ability in EOF tells you whats wrong with our class. Devs didnt come up with something new so they " copy and paste" the TSO Endline ability and change the dot/proc only.</p><p>With changes to Stream of Arrows, was said before Beta  so no NDA break here, it seems devs cannot come up with something new and inventive so they make us what an AE DPS class?</p><p>When i spoke to ranger i know, they said assasins do up to 10k dps more with the new trees  and have utility in form of the hate -transfer.</p><p>Since im not in beta, i hope the guys who are in BETA and  know the class can convince xelgad & co to come up with better Endline abilities and give us something new, raid desireability and worthwhile.</p></blockquote><p>I know rangers have problems but first of all the stat consolidation will help considerably.  Second the "leaked" beta achivements are not worth paying any attention too since as kiara said...</p><p><cite>Kiara wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Unless you're in beta and actively testing and helping get these things tweaked, I strongly suggest ignoring the leaks.</p></blockquote><p>The stuff on beta most likely chages pretty often and speculating on incorrect information doesn't help.</p></blockquote><p>It has changed and it still sucks. I have spoken with some rangers that know and most (that raid) are considering betraying. But hey if you want to set yourself up for disappointment go ahead. I have learned my lesson.</p>

[-=Hoss=-]

<p><cite>Ranja wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>We sucked on release. Way underpowered and weak sauce solo'ing. We were gods in DoF. That lasted a year. KoS crushed us with the proc change and we got no other compensation. EoF we and assassins were fairly balanced. RoK and TSO we became second rate DPS.</p><p> And we have probably been nerfed more than any other class in the game because of PvP. Not to mention the horrible itemization we have to put up with because of short sighted item designers. And the fact that we get screwed on most every buff in the game that either buffs the melee counterpart more or completely ignores buffing ranged.</p><p>So yea for about 2 years of the 5 we were balanced. Do you even play a ranger?</p></blockquote><p>Oh hell no I don't play a ranger.  I come here, because frankly I find it fascinating how much rangers seem to whine.  You have not been crapped upon more than any other class, yet you complain more than any other has since the beginning.  Heck, you've probably complained as much as all the rest combined.  Like I said, i find it fascinating. </p><p>The uniqueness of the class (the fact that you are the only ranged class, not a caster and not a melee) is where the problem has come from I think.  You didn't have anything valid to compare yourself to.  Now that it looks like that is going away (unless I miss my guess they are going to basically consider you a melee class now), I'm interested to see if the whining continues. </p><p>I'll add that all of the whining has not been baseless, far from it.  All classes have had legitimate gripes.  And I think the change, if I'm right about it, is long overdue, if for no other reason than I'm tired of seeing gear being made for one class that almost nobody plays.</p>

[Ranja]

<p><cite>-=Hoss=- wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ranja wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>We sucked on release. Way underpowered and weak sauce solo'ing. We were gods in DoF. That lasted a year. KoS crushed us with the proc change and we got no other compensation. EoF we and assassins were fairly balanced. RoK and TSO we became second rate DPS.</p><p> And we have probably been nerfed more than any other class in the game because of PvP. Not to mention the horrible itemization we have to put up with because of short sighted item designers. And the fact that we get screwed on most every buff in the game that either buffs the melee counterpart more or completely ignores buffing ranged.</p><p>So yea for about 2 years of the 5 we were balanced. Do you even play a ranger?</p></blockquote><p>Oh hell no I don't play a ranger.  I come here, because frankly I find it fascinating how much rangers seem to whine.  You have not been crapped upon more than any other class, yet you complain more than any other has since the beginning.  Heck, you've probably complained as much as all the rest combined.  Like I said, i find it fascinating. </p><p>The uniqueness of the class (the fact that you are the only ranged class, not a caster and not a melee) is where the problem has come from I think.  You didn't have anything valid to compare yourself to.  Now that it looks like that is going away (unless I miss my guess they are going to basically consider you a melee class now), I'm interested to see if the whining continues. </p><p>I'll add that all of the whining has not been baseless, far from it.  All classes have had legitimate gripes.  And I think the change, if I'm right about it, is long overdue, if for no other reason than I'm tired of seeing gear being made for one class that almost nobody plays.</p></blockquote><p>Everyone complains about their class unless you play ez-mode assassin<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I think it is kinda pathetic that you need to troll our another classes board and make unknowledgeable sweeping comments about another class you have never played.</p><p>Brawlers get the shaft more than we do as have summoners, but I don't play those classes so I don't give a #$%^.</p><p>The problem is we have our counterpart class (assassin) that seems to get buffed each and every expansion with great CAs and new tricks while we get hawk dive and coverage. At least with Brawlers it is both monks and bruisers getting screwed and with summoners it is both necros and conjys.</p>

[Noob1974]

<p>@Lethe5683</p><p>Stat consolidation will help how ? It does not give us the dps to compare with assasins not to mention wizzies. I have spoken to ranger and  everyone says the gap is no larger than ever be tween the two predators. Secondary we bring not a single useful utlity to raid i how is that changed through stat con solidation ?</p><p>@Hoss</p><p>I'm no one that whines but i have to make decision wether or not i want to buy an expansion in which my class is far behind that whats needed for raid.</p><p>The flavour  when talking with ranger in foren and such either betray,delete or play your dirge alt. Since betraying is out question i have to look is it worth playing a ranger in T9 .......</p>

[Neiloch]

<p>I've said this before, if they end up gimping rangers significantly and it stays that way for a few months I'll just outright quit and never look back, even if they 'fix' rangers a year later. And that's still pretty stubborn of me since others have already quit or switched well before SF beta. This was touched on but the reason why rangers might 'whine more' is because our counterpart is the most OP DPS class in the game while we are the most underpowered. The contrast in DPS/utility between a ranger and assassin is by the far the biggest gap in the game when dealing with classes (summoners, brawlers, warriors, rogues etc). If such things were tracked ranger betraying to assassin would at least be in the top 5 if not #1. They have been told repeatedly exactly how to fix us, in a nut shell its 'increase ranger CA damage.' That is to say make our CA damage more in line with assassins. Another ancillary problem being new bows don't get put in when new 1handers are to keep our auto attack DPS up to par. Even if they don't see it as a fix (which would be really ignorant of them) it would appease the ranger community so I don't see how it could be bad.</p>

[Carpediem]

<p>I think we're at a point where a dev should at least tell us what their reason is for not raising our dps to where it should be. I know they hate commenting on class issues because it has a way of being quoted forever after they post something, but thousands of posts from rangers saying something is wrong and them ignoring it isn't going to make it go away.</p><p>I think it is really upsetting to see replies from them on plenty of other tiny little things in the game but they have yet to step up and give us one single reason why nothing has been done for our class.</p>

[Lethe5683]

<p><cite>Ranja wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It has changed and it still sucks. I have spoken with some rangers that know and most (that raid) are considering betraying. But hey if you want to set yourself up for disappointment go ahead. I have learned my lesson.</p></blockquote><p>I don't know how you would know that unless you are in beta in which case you are breaking the NDA by saying that.</p><p><cite>Ranja wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The problem is we have our counterpart class (assassin) that seems to get buffed each and every expansion with great CAs and new tricks while we get hawk dive and coverage. At least with Brawlers it is both monks and bruisers getting screwed and with summoners it is both necros and conjys.</p></blockquote><p>Not really since bruisers and monks are basically the same class, it's more comparing monks to plate tanks.</p><p><cite>Noob1974 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>@Lethe5683</p><p>Class consolidation will help how ? It does not give us the dps to compare with assasins not to mention wizzies. I have spoken to ranger and  everyone says the gap is no larger than ever be tween the two predators. Secondary we bring not a single useful utlity to raid i hiow is that changed thorugh stat con solidation ?</p></blockquote><p>I never said anything about class consolidation.  Stat consolidation though will help rangers with things like the devs tendancy for putting significantly more melee DA than ranged DA on equiopment/buffs that are supposed to be equal for both classes.  I'm not saying this will fix rangers, far from it, but at least it will help a good amount.</p><p><cite>akaglty wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think we're at a point where a dev should at least tell us what their reason is for not raising our dps to where it should be. I know they hate commenting on class issues because it has a way of being quoted forever after they post something, but thousands of posts from rangers saying something is wrong and them ignoring it isn't going to make it go away.</p><p>I think it is really upsetting to see replies from them on plenty of other tiny little things in the game but they have yet to step up and give us one single reason why nothing has been done for our class.</p></blockquote><p>As far as I've seen the closest to a reason the devs have given is because rangers can do DPS from a range... which is stupid since to do competitive DPS they <em>have</em> to melee as well.  The only times that this is a significant boon is in fighters were everyone must stay ranged for large portions of the fight.  I could see rangers maybe having *slightly* less DPS than assassins since assassins have more positional attacks and can't do much from a range but this would only be the case if rangers also had just as much utility as an assassin but as is they have no utility worth mentioning.</p><p>Another reason for the lack of dev replies is, I believe, for classes like rangers, bawlers and summoners which are not "typical" compared to the other members of their archetype is that they really don't know how to fix them because they don't have the experiance and do not listen very well to knowledgable players.</p>

[Striikor]

<p>Ahhh, Why not at least DPS equal to an assassin? Even if were equal the assassin would get the invite to a group or to the right group in a raid because they have utility. Muderous Design get's them in a slot with groups that have the right buffs. What do you as a Ranger offer? Hawk is useless, FA is undervalued, so we offer what? DPS, and with the setups we do get it is DPS behind, Assassin, Wizard and Warlock.</p><p>We are the only ranged/melee dps class. Kind of a hybrid between mage and melee. We are both and neither, for optimal DPS we need to be outside of melee autoattack range. Primary and mainhand procs do us no good. Assassins, Warlocks and Wzards can stand right on the mob and DPS they don't suffer minimum range on the majority of thier DPS.... do they?  </p><p>I do not want to be a utility class, rolled ranger to be DPS ..... whoops!</p><p>Itemization including all crit into 1 is not going to be a great help for raiding rangers. My RCrit solo is 95% and ~56%on RDble. We have a coefficeint on RDbl that they have already said will remain. WHich tells me they have no intention of moving Rangers back into T1. Hell we should be the TOP T1 we have no other viable thing to bring except for DPS. Hawk never hits, so never siphons hate. We, at least I am generally in a group with 1 other melee DPS so that FA means nothing also. This equals zero utility.</p><p>Everyone agrees that out of Wizard, Warlock, Ranger and Assassin Ranger comes in last in DPS potential. Yet we also have the least amount of utility. I have to max my gear, temp adorns and beg for a group every time just to stay in the top 6 DPS of a raid.</p><p>Rangers are great at utilizing buffs, but there is nothing that recommends us for the groups that have the buffs we need. I am not going to get put in the OT group with the dirge and coercer over the Assassin because the Assassin has Murderous Design, 19% hate transfer. I cannot get in the mage group because I add nothing to thier DPS FA does nothnig for Spell Damage. So I miss the troub and Coercer in there. That leaves me in the 'utility' groups with summoners and brawlers whom my buffs don't help. Truthfully I think they would rather have an assassin or swashy there too to help the brawler with aggro when needed.</p><p>Also if they are combining crits why not combine the AA crits on Str and Agi? We self buff haste as rangers Hunters Instinct +49 Attack Speed, Assassins Villainy DPS +78 DPS (Mmmmm which is better). We take Agi primarily for the Ranged Expertise Rcrit. We take str for perfectionist. Spending aa in precision of blades provides no discernable inprovement in DPS. Our melee CA's are not powerful and we never Melee aa. Replace which ever one is not combined with a range specific aa like Rdbl or DPS.</p><p>Make Hawk provide aoe protectiion for utility (may get us in the mage group)</p><p>Fix SoA remove the stun, stifle, root or at least the stun Stifle.</p><p>Change FA to benefit something other than melee because we don't get melee groups, and melee does not help us do anything.</p><p>They could fix quite a bit by being able to treat our bow as mainhand or primary weapon it is not right now. Try getting it to proc main or primary procs or adorns as specified on primary or secondary items.</p><p>I got it fixed though I pre-ordered it for pickup at Best-Buy, if on release a good deal of this is not addressed I can take it back the same day I pickit up. I won't even have to open the box. My subscription is good till july.</p><p>Hoss, get a clue rangers don't melee, period. We have 1 ca that hits for more than our autoattack sniper arrow, Take a look at the Predator tree in that light.</p><p>Moderator: Please can you also remove the "/ignore ranger" flag in the developer channel?</p>

[-=Hoss=-]

<p><cite>Ranja wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><p>Everyone complains about their class unless you play ez-mode assassin<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote> <p>I think you are confused.  Rangrs are EZmode assassins, AKA AFK Assassins, and as I said, you guys seem to complain more.  But we all care about our class and our raid.</p> <p><cite>akaglty wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><p>I think we're at a point where a dev should at least tell us what their reason is for not raising our dps to where it should be.</p></blockquote> <p>I haven't heard this for a while, but I'd be willing to bet the answer will still be something along the lines of "We have worldwide parses at our disposal and they tell us that the classes are pretty close"  I think it was around EOF when I heard that from a dev.</p> <p><cite>Toball Tokor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Everyone agrees that out of Wizard, Warlock, Ranger and Assassin Ranger comes in last in DPS potential. Yet we also have the least amount of utility.</p><p>Hoss, get a clue rangers don't melee, period. We have 1 ca that hits for more than our autoattack sniper arrow, Take a look at the Predator tree in that light.</p><p>Moderator: Please can you also remove the "/ignore ranger" flag in the developer channel?</p></blockquote><p>Everyone also agrees that assassins are 3rd on that list.  I mean, you're trying to make out like the predators are 1 and 4. </p><p>I've read from good rangers who say you are a fool if you don't use your melee CAs.  So I don't know who to believe, rangers that can outparse me, or you.  Lemme think about that for a while. </p><p>I liked the last line, gave me a chuckle.  But probably not for the reason you think it did.</p>

[Neiloch]

Both are quite easy if you know the tips/tricks. Assassin is knowing how to use concealment chain, ranger is staying in 4-5 meters and using focus aim properly (protip: when you have lots of ranged CA's up), and knowing bloody reminder and backstabs are some of our best parses CA's. But rogues and even dirges when in 'DPS mode' can compare to our auto attack DPS, so saying we are auto anything really doesn't hold weight anymore. Hate to 'turn' on some rangers but I have seen more than a few complain (even high end guys with avy gear) while having little to no idea what they are doing. Did teach me anyone can get uber geared by just sitting out and gathering what ever loot the others don't want anymore. Rangers all over need to make a point of looking at ZONEWIDES, that's where our power lies, and that is where you will see the real problems. Don't tell me you all do either because even in my own guild they hold individual fights over zonewides, mainly because unlike high DPS classes they can't compete on that scale. This is most likely what devs are looking at too. As Hoss pointed out probably even 'server wides' we don't even have access to. Ranger's are doing pretty bad but not nearly as bad as most of the ranger community insists. That or I seem to have magic powers that transcend the games mechanics allowing me to do decently.

[Ranja]

<p><cite>-=Hoss=- wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ranja wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><p>Everyone complains about their class unless you play ez-mode assassin<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote> <p>I think you are confused.  Rangrs are EZmode assassins, AKA AFK Assassins, and as I said, you guys seem to complain more.  But we all care about our class and our raid.</p> <p><cite>akaglty wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><p>I think we're at a point where a dev should at least tell us what their reason is for not raising our dps to where it should be.</p></blockquote> <p>I haven't heard this for a while, but I'd be willing to bet the answer will still be something along the lines of "We have worldwide parses at our disposal and they tell us that the classes are pretty close"  I think it was around EOF when I heard that from a dev.</p> <p><cite>Toball Tokor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Everyone agrees that out of Wizard, Warlock, Ranger and Assassin Ranger comes in last in DPS potential. Yet we also have the least amount of utility.</p><p>Hoss, get a clue rangers don't melee, period. We have 1 ca that hits for more than our autoattack sniper arrow, Take a look at the Predator tree in that light.</p><p>Moderator: Please can you also remove the "/ignore ranger" flag in the developer channel?</p></blockquote><p>Everyone also agrees that assassins are 3rd on that list.  I mean, you're trying to make out like the predators are 1 and 4. </p><p><strong>I've read from good rangers who say you are a fool if you don't use your melee CAs.  So I don't know who to believe, rangers that can outparse me, or you.  Lemme think about that for a while. </strong></p><p>I liked the last line, gave me a chuckle.  But probably not for the reason you think it did.</p></blockquote><p>Just to clarify, we use melee CAs to  get 100% of our DPS not melee auto-attack</p>

[Ranja]

<p><cite>Neiloch@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Both are quite easy if you know the tips/tricks. Assassin is knowing how to use concealment chain, ranger is staying in 4-5 meters and using focus aim properly (protip: when you have lots of ranged CA's up), and knowing bloody reminder and backstabs are some of our best parses CA's. But rogues and even dirges when in 'DPS mode' can compare to our auto attack DPS, so saying we are auto anything really doesn't hold weight anymore. Hate to 'turn' on some rangers but I have seen more than a few complain (even high end guys with avy gear) while having little to no idea what they are doing. Did teach me anyone can get uber geared by just sitting out and gathering what ever loot the others don't want anymore. Rangers all over need to make a point of looking at ZONEWIDES, that's where our power lies, and that is where you will see the real problems. Don't tell me you all do either because even in my own guild they hold individual fights over zonewides, mainly because unlike high DPS classes they can't compete on that scale. This is most likely what devs are looking at too. As Hoss pointed out probably even 'server wides' we don't even have access to. Ranger's are doing pretty bad but not nearly as bad as most of the ranger community insists. That or I seem to have magic powers that transcend the games mechanics allowing me to do decently.</blockquote><p>No you just play with bad warlocks, wizards and assassins<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Striikor]

<p><cite>-=Hoss=- wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I've read from good rangers who say you are a fool if you don't use your melee CAs.  So I don't know who to believe, rangers that can outparse me, or you.  Lemme think about that for a while. <p>I liked the last line, gave me a chuckle.  But probably not for the reason you think it did.</p></blockquote><p>Hoss, I don't know, are your delibrately misunderstanding me? I think Assassins are where they should be, again in my experience. I am certainly not calling for ANY Assassin nerf bat. In fact the to hit issue prevents assassins from being the defacto #1 DPS. But in our case the Assassin is the number #1 parser in the guild with the Wizard and Warlock close seconds but that could simply be the level of buffing they get.</p><p>And as Ranja point out even noob rangers use Melee CA's but noobs also use Melee AutoAttack.</p><p>On those rare occasions where I have other lauded Ranger's in a group with me I stick with them in the parse. I can outparse other faily well equipped guild assassins (T3) when they are in the same group. But I most certainly cannot come close to our main assassin in any group or raid setting. Those same assassins beat me significantly when they get the MT or OT slot that I will never have.</p><p>Along with other issues the grouping logic issue is huge.</p>

[-=Hoss=-]

<p><cite>Striikor@Nektulos wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>-=Hoss=- wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I've read from good rangers who say you are a fool if you don't use your melee CAs.  So I don't know who to believe, rangers that can outparse me, or you.  Lemme think about that for a while. <p>I liked the last line, gave me a chuckle.  But probably not for the reason you think it did.</p></blockquote><p>Hoss, I don't know, are your delibrately misunderstanding me? I think Assassins are where they should be, again in my experience. I am certainly not calling for ANY Assassin nerf bat. In fact the to hit issue prevents assassins from being the defacto #1 DPS. But in our case the Assassin is the number #1 parser in the guild with the Wizard and Warlock close seconds but that could simply be the level of buffing they get.</p></blockquote><p>This is not going to sound like a serious question, but it is.  [Removed for Content] are you talking about striikor?  You realize I wasn't talking to you here, right?  So I'm going to need some help as to which of your words you think I was misunderstanding.  I foolishly decided to give you some slack and went back through the thread to see where I had actually replied to you and what we were talking about ... and this was your first contribution.  So for real, what invisible words am I misunderstanding?</p><p>And finally, I suspect you're not raiding very tough content if the wizards and warlocks don't pwn the assassin.  Like maybe you are killing xebnok.  I don't say that as a slam of any sort on your guild, but just to point out that the higher mobs in progression are making me hate life as an assassin and casters seem to have a huge advantage.</p>

[Ranja]

<p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Noob1974 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The biggest problem with the ranger class is that we are the only class that are not allwoed by devs to do our job namely T1 dps. We are the only DPS class with a dmg penalty and because of that, as Neiloch said before, our AA isnt that big plus anymore.</p><p>Secondary i started raiding in KOS so i can't speak for DOF. But i know in EOF we had a better tree than assasins and the only time my class was actually fun to play and needed in raids , especially with the rigid scale bow.</p><p>Without going into any details of this so called leaked "info"and judging by the STATUS Quo of the info , there are two points i want to point at.</p><p>First all endline abilities in the new KOS tree benefits assasins MORE!!! than ranger.</p><p>Secondary the endline ability in EOF tells you whats wrong with our class. Devs didnt come up with something new so they " copy and paste" the TSO Endline ability and change the dot/proc only.</p><p>With changes to Stream of Arrows, was said before Beta  so no NDA break here, it seems devs cannot come up with something new and inventive so they make us what an AE DPS class?</p><p>When i spoke to ranger i know, they said assasins do up to 10k dps more with the new trees  and have utility in form of the hate -transfer.</p><p>Since im not in beta, i hope the guys who are in BETA and  know the class can convince xelgad & co to come up with better Endline abilities and give us something new, raid desireability and worthwhile.</p></blockquote><p>I know rangers have problems but first of all the stat consolidation will help considerably.  Second the "leaked" beta achivements are not worth paying any attention too since as kiara said...</p><p><cite>Kiara wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Unless you're in beta and actively testing and helping get these things tweaked, I strongly suggest ignoring the leaks.</p></blockquote><p>The stuff on beta most likely chages pretty often and speculating on incorrect information doesn't help.</p></blockquote><p>This is some garbage company line everyone in beta is toeing so the AAs that were leaked on the other site don't get people upset. In actuallity, they are not going to change that much and they will suck.</p>

[EQ2Magroo]

<p><cite>Ranja wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This is some garbage company line everyone in beta is toeing so the AAs that were leaked on the other site don't get people upset. In actuallity, they are not going to change that much and they will suck.</p></blockquote><p>I hear the new SF AAs are now live on the test server, so we should be able to check.</p><p>As we're less than 2 weeks to release date I'd be very suprised if what is on test now isn't exactly what we get on release day.</p>

[Kyklopes]

<p>I've played my Ranger for 4 years now, and I'd say I disagree with most of what the OP said.  I solo exclusively, don't Raid (don't have the time).</p><p>I've read many times on these boards that Rangers are supposed to be about DPS -- anything that didn't feed that was useless.  Ridiculous.  Rangers are about Survivability.  Running around the back country by yourself, surviving what ever you come across. We're Mountain Men, not watered down versions of Fighters, or stick-throwing versions of Mages.</p><p>I've got three different ways of attacking -- Ranged, Melee, and Stealth plus Melee.  Each plays different, comes in handy in different settings. It comes down to a single spec only if you're a Munchkin, and Min/Max DPS is all you care about.  If that's what's fun for you, great.  But that isn't all the players.  Some of us like using the other abilities, to be more than DPS mills.  Not that we don't like hitting things hard, there's just more to the game than that if you let it.  Not every ability is a great one, but they're not all useless like so many are repeating here.</p><p>AGI line is a necessary, no argument there.  Expected -- we're bow users.</p><p>Tried the STR line, and the final ability was little help (as everyone points out), but the Parry and Melee crit are nice.</p><p>Tried STA, but that AE hit had too much reach, I kept getting unexpected pulls. There was no precision with it. The added Health wasn't enough to spend the points.</p><p>INT line was OK, but didn't add much to my fights.</p><p>I seem to be the only one that likes the the WIS line.  Added Wisdom is always great for protection from spell casters; as a ranged fighter, that becomes critically important.  The added defense is very noticable.  Reducing Stealth timer is great -- stealth in, do my task, and jump right back into stealth before a roaming mob notices me.  The Hate reduction isn't what's great about that 2nd ability; doesn't help solo players.  But having another attack that works in the in-between distance is handy. Smoke-bomb is OK, but I've respecced several times with it in, with it out, and it just seems too un-Ranger-like for me to use.</p>

[Striikor]

<p><cite>Kyklopes wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I've played my Ranger for 4 years now, and I'd say I disagree with most of what the OP said.  I solo exclusively, don't Raid (don't have the time).</p><p>I've read many times on these boards that Rangers are supposed to be about DPS -- anything that didn't feed that was useless.  Ridiculous.  Rangers are about Survivability.  Running around the back country by yourself, surviving what ever you come across. We're Mountain Men, not watered down versions of Fighters, or stick-throwing versions of Mages.</p></blockquote><p>You have been in the bush too long, and you are missing 75% of the content and challenge. Survivability if you are in an area that you can kite. Most other classes have as much or more survivablity particularly in tighter zones.  I have been playing since Jan 2005 and I rolled a Ranger because I like to solo but also because they <strong>were</strong> T1 DPS. What you are talking about is the fun factor. No one is saying that that part is not there and you are right in that soloing a ranger is engaging. But it is such a small part of what the game is designed for and is about. Soloing exclusively is such a waste of content.</p><p>You can dis our opinions with confidence only because you are casual and not explored the greater part of MMO. You really don't have any idea what you are talking about.</p><p>You are wasting you money, do you typically buy a ticket to get you 25% to your destination? What you should do is buy a different game RP or FPS and continue to tiptoe through the tulips.</p>

[Venez]

<p><cite>Striikor@Nektulos wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kyklopes wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I've played my Ranger for 4 years now, and I'd say I disagree with most of what the OP said.  I solo exclusively, don't Raid (don't have the time).</p><p>I've read many times on these boards that Rangers are supposed to be about DPS -- anything that didn't feed that was useless.  Ridiculous.  Rangers are about Survivability.  Running around the back country by yourself, surviving what ever you come across. We're Mountain Men, not watered down versions of Fighters, or stick-throwing versions of Mages.</p></blockquote><p>You have been in the bush too long, and you are missing 75% of the content and challenge. Survivability if you are in an area that you can kite. Most other classes have as much or more survivablity particularly in tighter zones.  I have been playing since Jan 2005 and I rolled a Ranger because I like to solo but also because they <strong>were</strong> T1 DPS. What you are talking about is the fun factor. No one is saying that that part is not there and you are right in that soloing a ranger is engaging. But it is such a small part of what the game is designed for and is about. Soloing exclusively is such a waste of content. <span style="color: #ff0000;">Everyone pays for the fun factor, if his is the solo end - then that IS what he is paying for.There is content for everyone.</span></p><p>You can dis our opinions with confidence only because you are casual and not explored the greater part of MMO. You really don't have any idea what you are talking about. <span style="color: #ff0000;">After reading some of your previous posts, I dont think you should be calling someone out about what they know....imo.</span></p><p>You are wasting you money, do you typically buy a ticket to get you 25% to your destination? What you should do is buy a different game RP or FPS and continue to tiptoe through the tulips. <span style="color: #ff0000;">I know people of all class's that only Tradeskill, I know people of all class's that just solo, I know people of all class's that only do instances and quests. Its great to be passionite about your playstyle - dont disrespect someone else because you dont like it.</span></p></blockquote>

[Striikor]

<p><cite>Venez@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Striikor@Nektulos wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kyklopes wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I've played my Ranger for 4 years now, and I'd say I disagree with most of what the OP said.  I solo exclusively, don't Raid (don't have the time).</p><p>I've read many times on these boards that Rangers are supposed to be about DPS -- anything that didn't feed that was useless.  Ridiculous.  Rangers are about Survivability.  Running around the back country by yourself, surviving what ever you come across. We're Mountain Men, not watered down versions of Fighters, or stick-throwing versions of Mages.</p></blockquote><p>You have been in the bush too long, and you are missing 75% of the content and challenge. Survivability if you are in an area that you can kite. Most other classes have as much or more survivablity particularly in tighter zones.  I have been playing since Jan 2005 and I rolled a Ranger because I like to solo but also because they <strong>were</strong> T1 DPS. What you are talking about is the fun factor. No one is saying that that part is not there and you are right in that soloing a ranger is engaging. But it is such a small part of what the game is designed for and is about. Soloing exclusively is such a waste of content. <span style="color: #ff0000;">Everyone pays for the fun factor, if his is the solo end - then that IS what he is paying for.There is content for everyone.</span></p><p>You can dis our opinions with confidence only because you are casual and not explored the greater part of MMO. You really don't have any idea what you are talking about. <span style="color: #ff0000;">After reading some of your previous posts, I dont think you should be calling someone out about what they know....imo.</span></p><p>You are wasting you money, do you typically buy a ticket to get you 25% to your destination? What you should do is buy a different game RP or FPS and continue to tiptoe through the tulips. <span style="color: #ff0000;">I know people of all class's that only Tradeskill, I know people of all class's that just solo, I know people of all class's that only do instances and quests. Its great to be passionite about your playstyle - dont disrespect someone else because you dont like it.</span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>Your right Venez, I should be chastised, I forgot the Ranger was created strictly for soloing as per Kyklopes view. Of course we should view AA's strictly in that context. And yes your right I should not assume Kyklopes is missing any content soloing exclusively. And certainly has a valid view on AA's as so many Ranger's desire to pay full price to concentrate on playing a Ranger solo. A new concept that none of us have ever done. Why shouldn't we all agree with Kyklopes post?</p><p>Honestly, I admit the last sentence "What you should do is buy a different game RP or FPS and continue to tiptoe through the tulips." was out of line, my apologies to Kyklopes.</p>