At what point does it become highly discouraging to be a healer? [Archive]

Transen

11-13-2009, 02:20 PM

Cat-like reflexes do help but can also burn a healer out if they're constantly needing to use them. As a raiding warden, I've learned (albeit painfully) to pick and choose whom I cure and what needs to be cured as apposed to what can be left alone. The raid force on a whole needs to bring their own cure potions too as healers can't just stop healing to cure wall to wall afflictions.Healers also need to bring cure potions. Not to pass around to those that didn't bring any but to cure themselves of certain raid afflictions that force you to target something else during it's duration and thus unable to target yourself for a cure or someone other than the main tank who needs an extra heal. The cure potion allows you to circumvent the affliction's forced-target in order to cure it.Now what holds true to raiding in how you handle cures and heals also holds true to the group instances. Having a healer in the raid/group is not a free ticket to mindless button pressing for other class-types. If the classes who's role it is to dish out damage during a fight are getting low on health from hitting on an enemy with a damage-inflicting shield on, then they need to stop attacking until their health is up or risk death from further attacks or Area-Effect damage abilities of the enemy.Yes, it's a healer's job to keep everyone in their raid/group alive. But it's not the job of every other class-type to make a healer's job any more difficult than what can't be avoided.

Aanadorn68

11-13-2009, 02:21 PM

The crazy click to curing starts with the x2 raids then escalates into the other raids. In regular group content it's always a good idea to cure, but curing is manageable and can take a back seat as needed when you need to get that heal in for spike damage. In some raids if you see a detriment pop up you better immediately cure it, and I mean immediately.Most people use a click to cure UI like profit UI, personally I dont like profit so made my own click to cure using hotbars. It's kind of weird why SOE changed the game to require a click to cure UI addon without adding the function to the standard UI, but then again ACT and timers are integral parts of raiding, but aren't provided by SOE.The scary thing is that from dev chat they are thinking of implementing detrimentals that should NOT be cure, or that if cured will cause another detrimental to come up. It looks like the curefest will be intensified next expansion from the look of things.

Lord Hackenslash

11-13-2009, 02:22 PM

Curing is important throughout TSO but the parts people are complaining about don't really factor in until you start raiding the 24 person x4 zones. in particular you will seethe cures popping up more and more frequently the further in you progress. If all you plan on doing is grouping I wouldn't worry too much about the burnout factor. but the frist few times you do some of the raid mobs out there expect a little stress. particularly in Ykesha's inner stronghold and in Palace of the ancient one. Tomb of the mad crusader has a fair amount of curing but it is less critical on the first few named in there.It doesn't take cat like reflexes so much as being experienced with the fight and knowing when something is coming up in the next few seconds that you need to be ready to cure. As for the whack a mole curing its pretty easy with a UI like Profit but is frustrating because when you are curing you can't heal and when you are healing people are stressing that you took a few seconds to cure them.

Rijacki

11-13-2009, 02:23 PM

<cite>kevincann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Could someone simply and with no acronyms (I don't know them yet.. only been playing 9 months)explain the common instance/raid progression, and indicate where you start to need to have cat likereflexes to keep the whole raid from wiping, due to not curing fast enough.</blockquote>I'll give you an example using one of the TSO raids, the Strange Stalker in Lower Caverns of Ykesha. From EQ2i:"It has a double noxious AE. Consider the first a debuff, Poisonous Spores, which will make the following one lethal unless the debuff is cured quickly - ala Venril Sathir.It casts a curse, Vortex of Venom, on 2 people at a time, which must be cured in seconds or a raidwide giant AE will be triggered."The AE (Area of Effect cast) can be "pot cured" which means each member of the raid can carry noxious remedy potions and use them when the AE hits.The curse, though, requires a "rotation" be established with the priests on the raid because of the cool-down/recast of the cure curse spell each priest has. When a priests turn is up, he or she has to immediately cure the curse on their target or the whole raid will wipe. It doesn't matter how dead the Stalker is. It doesn't matter how well any one else on the raid is doing their job (dps, tanking, debuffing, power mongering, whatever), if the specific priest who needed to cast his cure spell at that exact moment was late, blew the cast on someone else that was cured by a different person, was in the middle of a different cast and didn't interrupt that to cast the cure, or any other "not paying attention" type situations or is going link dead, has been hit with a massive lag spike, etc. The raid wipes.However,heroic instances don't have these same types of fail conditions. It's only if you want to get into raiding that you will start to see them.(edited to get rid of the editor making some things in black text that shouldn't be.)

Ambrin

11-13-2009, 02:31 PM

Basically the fail conditions people are talking to are in raids where one person gets an (often times uncurable) detrimental that they have to respond to or the raid wipes. If you never raid these will never affect you.There is also no point in heroic content where cures take on the roll of "Cure this in 0.2s or everyone dies", the only heroic content I recall where cures are anything more important than "when ever you can get around to taking these debuffs off us" would be Necrotic Asylum where some of the mobs in the zone place a curse on the tank that will typically bring him down to zero mitigation, meaning your tank might end up being one or two shotted. On the last boss in the same zone everyone will get a curse that can be cured by running into a nearby pool of water, the exception to this is the tank who needs to stand more or less in one spot for the fight, you need to cure his curse at around 10-15s before it expires. If the curse expires on anyone in the group the boss will blow up your group.If you do ever make it into raids there are a few mobs in the game that have detrimentals that needs to be cured FAST, otherwise they do a lot of damage which can lead to a lot of people dieing. I haven't encountered all of these mobs myself, but the ones that come to mind in this regard are: Tythus Tinzok in Palace of the Ancient One, he does a few massive group wide damage over time spells that can easily kill an entire group if not cured within a few seconds of them landing. These ones aren't to bad as usually the raid leader will give a count down to when these are about to land so that healers can hit their group cures when ever they hit.Another mob that is especially intensive for fast cures in Gynok Moltor, the last name in the Tomb of the Mad Crusader, he will place a curse on your maintank that deals between 15,000 and 30,000 damage on your main tank when it lands and also delevels the tank. The result of this is that if this curse is not cured cured almost instantly Gynok will one or two shot most tanks. On top of this Gynok will also place a random curse on someone else in your raid that needs to be cured, although you have a little time on this. The result is you need a set rotation of cures to make sure the raid survives.Those two fights described above are the two most cure intensive that I am aware of, but they are not the only fights where cures play a big role. A lot of mobs do have detrimentals that needs to be cured (both single target and group), and you usually want to cure them quickly, but you will not need to cure them nearly the second they land or have your raid wipe.One thing I will suggest is you download either download and install ProphetUI or a group/raid window mod with a "click to cure interface". What these enhancements allow you to do is cast a cure on player simply by clicking an icon next to their name in the raid or group window. This will make your job as a healer considerably easier as you will not need "cat like reflexes" in order to target a group member and cure them.

kevincann

11-13-2009, 02:33 PM

Thanks for the replies...It sure sounds like it's not that fun to be a healer 80+.I don't know that many people in the game yet, but all the healersi've taked to, have at a minimum, made a supposedly (in comparison)brainless utility class to just have fun 1/2 the time to recharge their batteries.I guess that's why i'm thinking of taking my 77 Illy to 80... as a 1/2 buff-botthe pressure should be much less I'd imagine.I guess I don't understand why most games put so much pressure on the healers..as it is, the DPS-crazed mindset of many players is not condusive to getting people toplay healers, even without all the fail-condition stress.I guess I'm always interested in the psychology of mmo players and game developers.-Kev

Tehom

11-13-2009, 03:03 PM

The fail conditions aren't so bad - they're basically awareness/survivability checks. The reason they're survivability checks is the vast majority of them doom the raid if the person who has them dies, so they usually translate into gear checks for critical mitigation.The cure problem is a few different encounters, and whether it's bad or not really depends on what healer you play. For an inquisitor they're all trivial. Druids are kind of out of luck there, but they'll be fixed (supposedly) next expansion. Shamans are largely fine, since our stamina line can halve the cast time of our single-target cures.There's a number of fights that are utterly miserable for healers, more or less because they screw with your ability to cast anything. Interrupt effects on starting to cast, target locks, things like that. Luckily they're kind of the minority right now.

Dasein

11-13-2009, 03:11 PM

Ambrin

11-13-2009, 03:17 PM

I wouldn't say it isn't fun to play a T8 healer, especially through heroic content. Most of the time you simply will just be healing and throwing out the occasional cure, and you really don't need any kind of quick reaction time at all. Some zones with geared out players don't even need healers, I have tanked Deep Forge in a group of my (geared) guildies in ~15 minutes while the healer was AFK getting some food, and I'm a monk. There are some upper end heroic zones where the mobs hit really hard and your healer needs to be in top of things, but if healing is your passion you should be used to this kind of thing.There are also plenty of fights in the game where the other classes have just as hard of a time as a healer, there are plenty of mobs in the game with power drains that can really stress out enchanters, or mobs that need to die within a certain time frame that put stress on the DPS, or encounters that do various things that put stress on the tanks.Basically the issue is that for the first time in nearly any MMO playing a healer is more complicated than healing the person who is taking damage and casting a spell that restores HP. They are now having to be more situationally aware, doing things like recognizing that curing is important. I'm not trying to say that being a healer has always just been a cakewalk, but until recently how many healers had the impression that a healer intensive fight was one where the mob did a large amount of AE damage or hit the tank really hard?

kevincann

11-13-2009, 03:51 PM

<cite>Ambrin@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wouldn't say it isn't fun to play a T8 healer, especially through heroic content. Most of the time you simply will just be healing and throwing out the occasional cure, and you really don't need any kind of quick reaction time at all. Some zones with geared out players don't even need healers, I have tanked Deep Forge in a group of my (geared) guildies in ~15 minutes while the healer was AFK getting some food, and I'm a monk. There are some upper end heroic zones where the mobs hit really hard and your healer needs to be in top of things, but if healing is your passion you should be used to this kind of thing.There are also plenty of fights in the game where the other classes have just as hard of a time as a healer, there are plenty of mobs in the game with power drains that can really stress out enchanters, or mobs that need to die within a certain time frame that put stress on the DPS, or encounters that do various things that put stress on the tanks.Basically the issue is that for the first time in nearly any MMO playing a healer is more complicated than healing the person who is taking damage and casting a spell that restores HP. They are now having to be more situationally aware, doing things like recognizing that curing is important. I'm not trying to say that being a healer has always just been a cakewalk, but until recently how many healers had the impression that a healer intensive fight was one where the mob did a large amount of AE damage or hit the tank really hard?</blockquote>Your feedback is interesting...However I don't hear about Tank burnout or DPS burnout.Perhaps its as you say.. healers have had it *cough* "easy" up to now <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Kev

feldon30

11-13-2009, 03:54 PM

On Strange Stalker, you have about 12 seconds to Cure Curse on the people affected. On Kultak the Cruel, the next mob in, you have less than 7 seconds to Cure Curse on the person affected. The stakes just get higher and higher.

Tehom

11-13-2009, 03:59 PM

<cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote>On Strange Stalker, you have about 12 seconds to Cure Curse on the people affected. On Kultak the Cruel, the next mob in, you have less than 7 seconds to Cure Curse on the person affected. The stakes just get higher and higher.</blockquote>Part of the problem is lag. There's a lot of effects that reward you disproportionately for curing immediately, but lag can make it effectively impossible to cure before a few seconds have passed. The degree to which some mobs have their difficulty changed by lag can be incredibly dramatic, to the extent where based on the time of day you fight something it's either laughably easy mode or almost impossible.

illaria

11-13-2009, 04:14 PM

I am going to have to stop reading your posts as they are just depressing.If you dont have fun, dont play the game. I have an 80 mystic and when I returned to the game a couple of months ago I was 80 with no shards and no epic. There was a learning curve to healing the new expansion -I switched my AAs and I reccomend getting a different UI mod so you can easily see what need cured on what group or raid member. Granted I have never done any of the high end TSO raids but I have had a fun time.I also have an 80 scout and healing has always been more stressful for me as I take it personally when a group member dies whereas with my non-healer toons all I have to worry about is doing enough damage.

Thunndar316

11-13-2009, 05:05 PM

Healers should now be referred to as Curers.

woolf2k

11-13-2009, 05:54 PM

it's the whack a mole curing in TSO... at least that's my understanding...

kevincann

11-13-2009, 06:31 PM

<cite>illaria wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am going to have to stop reading your posts as they are just depressing.If you dont have fun, dont play the game. I have an 80 mystic and when I returned to the game a couple of months ago I was 80 with no shards and no epic. There was a learning curve to healing the new expansion -I switched my AAs and I reccomend getting a different UI mod so you can easily see what need cured on what group or raid member. Granted I have never done any of the high end TSO raids but I have had a fun time.I also have an 80 scout and healing has always been more stressful for me as I take it personally when a group member dies whereas with my non-healer toons all I have to worry about is doing enough damage.</blockquote>Oh don't worry --- I'll not be posting again any time soon.As part of my autism, I just can'e leave alone 'the big white elephant in the room'. I need to talk about itat least once, or i'll go crazy.(if you think these topics i've participated in are depressing, you'd shrivel into a greasy spot and die, if you talkedto me about religion, politics, the environment and the future of the mutated chimpanzee (humans are 98.4%identical to chimps)My big buggaboos, namely that the game is designed to discourage grouping, to create elitists who live to tell everyoneelse how lame they are, and to burn-out healers have now been expressed to my own satisfaction.As evidenced by others participating in the conversation, i'm not the only one with these bugaboos.I'm now going to go find my happy face, put it on, stop complaining, and find some friendlypeople who want to group up to "kill flippy darkpaw'.<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />-Kev

Wilde_Night

11-13-2009, 06:50 PM

Fippy... Fippy Darkpaw. He's gonna come after you if you spell his name wrong too much, you know. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

kevincann

11-13-2009, 06:57 PM

Bring it on FIPPY!My level 80 from EQ2 should have at least a 50% chance tokill a level 5 from EQ1.I still remember how attacking a bunny in Eq1 could get you mobbedby 1/2 the zone sometimes..(choo choo!)<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />We have it good..<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Kev

Wilde_Night

11-13-2009, 07:34 PM

Hehe. You'd be surprised where ol' Fippy shows up... especially since EQ2 is set 500 years in the future of EQ1. Can gnolls live that long?Anyway - I've played a healer (Warden) as my main for nearly 3 years and have various other flavors of healer smattered around my massive alternate character list. I love playing all the classes, but playing a healer is my favorite. I've been every classification of player in my 5 years total playing this game - causal, roleplayer, hardcore raider... now I'm kind of a casual, roleplaying mid-core raider. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Yes, TSO raid zones are not always the easy "Heal, heal, rez, heal, heal, nuke, melee, heal, heal" the other raid areas were in the past, but the curing is a new challange given to us to deal with. I'm probably not jaded as the other raid healers are about the "spam cure" issues, because I don't get to raid every week and haven't gotten burned out.Plus, I am surrounded by stellar guildmates and friends which always seems to make things less frustrating and more fun overall. Hopefully you find your niche somewhere in the game and continue enjoying it. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Seidhkona

11-13-2009, 08:18 PM

I don't think cat-like reflexes are necessary. I have an 80 fury and an 80 mystic, and am starting work on my 60-ish inquisitor.Curing is usually even more important than healing during a raid. Every healer will have at least three cures:<div><ul><li>single target, all-purpose cure(does NOT include curses)</li><li>group cure that cures two types of DOTs</li><li>cure curse (single target, very slow refresh)</li></ul></div>On the group cures, here is the list of "who has what":<div><ul><li>Elemental (heat, cold) - Druids (warden, fury) & Inquisitor</li><li>Noxious (poison,disease) - Shamans (mystic, defiler) & Fury</li><li>Arcane (magic, mental, divine)- Clerics (templar, inquisitor) & Mystic</li><li>Trauma (crushing, slashing, piercing, and melee) - Warden, Defiler, Templar </li></ul></div>Cures, particularly on the Main Tank, have to be FAST. In a lot of the higher-end raids if you let the DOT sit there more than one tick, it can literally wipe your raid. In order to speed up the casting, I use a macro for each cure - I create these, then use them on my hotbar instead of the regular cure icons. The big thing about each macro is that they all start off with /cancel_spellcast. This STOPS anything you might currently be casting and allows the cure to immediately fire.First up is the garden-variety, single-target cure. I don't have a text announcement on this one - everyone knows you are supposed to be curing. Note that I dragged the spell graphic not only to the "Spell" box in the macro, but also to the box with the macro's own icon. If you do this, then your hotkey will continue to show the refresh shading (assuming you have that feature enabled in your UI).<div><img src="http://fc06.deviantart.com/fs49/f/2009/229/2/0/Cure_Single_Target_by_Sigrdrifa1.jpg" /></div>Next is my group cure macro. I announce this one, so that if there are other healers in my group they know I have taken care of the cure. I also mention which two things it's curing for easy reference. Not everyone remembers which two cures each flavor of healer has on the group cure.<div><img src="http://fc05.deviantart.com/fs46/f/2009/229/2/6/Cure_Group_Noxious_Arcane_by_Sigrdrifa1.jpg" /></div>The last is the Cure Curse. Curses are, thankfully, fairly uncommon. I say "thankfully" because your cure curse is single-target, and has a LONG refresh timer. On fights where we know we will have curses, it's important to work out the curing order, and to call it out in both text and voice chat when you cure it. With this kind of fight, you need your healers to not waste their Cure Curse, because you may need all of them, one right after the other.<div><img src="http://fc05.deviantart.com/fs46/f/2009/229/e/0/Cure_Curse_by_Sigrdrifa1.jpg" /></div>

Lethe5683

11-13-2009, 08:20 PM

<cite>kevincann wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've played MMO's since they first came out, and i've alwyas loved playing healers most of all.I'd happily never do a single point of damage and only heal... I love healing.My current main is an 80 shaman and my 2nd favorite character is my 74 templar. If I had limitlessplay time, i'd also max out a warden/fury/inquisitor.However all this talk about 'fail conditions' and how all the healers are quitting has me spooked.Frankly, i've never raided, and never even done a x2. Heck, I've not done any TSO instances at allyet, except a little deep forge.Amazingly to me, healers aren't in any demand before 80 it seems, so i've not healed much in this gameyet at all..Could someone simply and with no acronyms (I don't know them yet.. only been playing 9 months)explain the common instance/raid progression, and indicate where you start to need to have cat likereflexes to keep the whole raid from wiping, due to not curing fast enough.I'm thnking I might just stop playing the only class I love... as I don't have cat-like reflexes...Thanks,Kev</blockquote>IMO it only becomes discoraging if:A. You don't have what it takes or don't care enough to learn.orB. Ignorant people are blaming you for something that is not at all your fault.

kevincann

11-13-2009, 08:45 PM

<cite>Sigrdrifa@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't think cat-like reflexes are necessary. I have an 80 fury and an 80 mystic, and am starting work on my 60-ish inquisitor.Curing is usually even more important than healing during a raid. Every healer will have at least three cures:<div><ul><li>single target, all-purpose cure(does NOT include curses)</li><li>group cure that cures two types of DOTs</li><li>cure curse (single target, very slow refresh)</li></ul></div>On the group cures, here is the list of "who has what":<div><ul><li>Elemental (heat, cold) - Druids (warden, fury) & Inquisitor</li><li>Noxious (poison,disease) - Shamans (mystic, defiler) & Fury</li><li>Arcane (magic, mental, divine)- Clerics (templar, inquisitor) & Mystic</li><li>Trauma (crushing, slashing, piercing, and melee) - Warden, Defiler, Templar </li></ul></div>Cures, particularly on the Main Tank, have to be FAST. In a lot of the higher-end raids if you let the DOT sit there more than one tick, it can literally wipe your raid. In order to speed up the casting, I use a macro for each cure - I create these, then use them on my hotbar instead of the regular cure icons. The big thing about each macro is that they all start off with /cancel_spellcast. This STOPS anything you might currently be casting and allows the cure to immediately fire.First up is the garden-variety, single-target cure. I don't have a text announcement on this one - everyone knows you are supposed to be curing. Note that I dragged the spell graphic not only to the "Spell" box in the macro, but also to the box with the macro's own icon. If you do this, then your hotkey will continue to show the refresh shading (assuming you have that feature enabled in your UI).<div><img src="http://fc06.deviantart.com/fs49/f/2009/229/2/0/Cure_Single_Target_by_Sigrdrifa1.jpg" /></div>Next is my group cure macro. I announce this one, so that if there are other healers in my group they know I have taken care of the cure. I also mention which two things it's curing for easy reference. Not everyone remembers which two cures each flavor of healer has on the group cure.<div><img src="http://fc05.deviantart.com/fs46/f/2009/229/2/6/Cure_Group_Noxious_Arcane_by_Sigrdrifa1.jpg" /></div>The last is the Cure Curse. Curses are, thankfully, fairly uncommon. I say "thankfully" because your cure curse is single-target, and has a LONG refresh timer. On fights where we know we will have curses, it's important to work out the curing order, and to call it out in both text and voice chat when you cure it. With this kind of fight, you need your healers to not waste their Cure Curse, because you may need all of them, one right after the other.<div><img src="http://fc05.deviantart.com/fs46/f/2009/229/e/0/Cure_Curse_by_Sigrdrifa1.jpg" /></div></blockquote>If you haven't already, could you post your macro info (and any observations about profitui or whatever)in the cleric general forum and see if we can get it sticked.Good stuff.-Kev

Kunaak

11-13-2009, 10:31 PM

theres no doubt about it...being a healer in TSO is a short lived experience for 90% of healers. by the time you get the mid range content of raiding in TSO, you will quickly see, healers are under 100% bombardment for curing this and curing that for the entire duration of a fight, and the farther you get in TSO, the more I wonder why any healer would bother after a few days of raiding end game in TSO. its so overboard. healers face about 90% of the fail conditions in raid now.DPS and tank almost seem irrelevant, compared to the need to cure this and that, within 2-3 seconds, or the tanks dead, or they wiped the raid, or they get power drained, then wipe the raid, and so on...if you could hear our vent chat during raids, theres almost nothing related to DPS, adds, positioning or anything else, its calling out whos got to be cured - or we die.I have a 60 defiler, that I really loved playing - till I started raiding, and saw what healers really had to go through, compared to my current role in raids - which has been DPS, Tank or Troub. each of those roles seemed trivial compared to what the healers had to take on. its not just healing, or keeping people alive, its [Removed for Content] near perfection in timing, where your cure curse has 2 seconds to cast, the curse from the time it lands has 3 seconds till it kills your MT.... just insane stuff like that.after seeing that, I said nooooooooooooo thanks, and havent touched my defiler for a good 6 months.I dont want to get it to 80, have some raid where we are short a healer, and someone asks me to fill in....TSO raiding absolutly discouraged me from playing healer.

Torri

11-13-2009, 11:10 PM

First off, I'd really try not to take such a pessimistic attitude toward anything you have not experienced firsthand. "They" may be right about healer burnout and the stress put on healers that are working to beat cutting edge content, but if you allow your perspective to be prejudiced by other people's preceptions rather than going out and experiencing for yourself you're bound to meet and exceed your negative expectations and just go down the burnout road that much faster.I've just started on the current expansion's raiding having killed the first 3 named in ToMC last weekend on our first trip in, so I have not had a chance to burn out yet, nor have I encountered what people farther along in progression describe. I have no doubt they speak truthfully, but why waste my time thinking on negative that I'm still a ways away from encountering when I can be enjoying the rush of finally taking down new (To our raid alliance) raid mobs and seeing new loot that before I only had a chance to see at auction in 70-79 chat?People have weighed in on both sides of the healer burnout and curefest, and helpful ones have given good advice on steps you can take to take some of the stress off and do the task of curing a bit better. You can take that advice and look forward to the challenge, or you can curl up in a ball and say "woe is me, It'll be stressful if I try so why should I try".Live a little. Try before giving up based on what "they" say <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Edith

11-14-2009, 12:42 AM

<cite>Torri@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Live a little. Try before giving up based on what "they" say <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> </blockquote>This. There are a few raid encounters where the curing makes me dream of kicking the devs in their shins but that is not the majority of the healing experience at 80. Personally, I'm happier being and important contributor to the group/raid than someone who could just as easily be replace by someone two-boxing. That said, healing is not for everyone, but neither are any of the other roles in a raid. Nice how that works out, huh?

erin

11-14-2009, 01:28 AM

<cite>kevincann wrote:</cite><blockquote>As part of my autism, I just can'e leave alone 'the big white elephant in the room'. I need to talk about itat least once, or i'll go crazy.</blockquote>Not sure why you feel you have to keep bringing this up. If you are autistic you are certainly high functioning, and no worse off than the old-style basement dweller gamers that still exist today (though most gamers are employed, with families, etc).How is this relevant to these topics?

Wullail

11-14-2009, 04:51 AM

The curing can get intense....the Raid leader shouting at all the healers in voice chat because someone missed one of the dozens of constant barrages of detrimental icons on another group and didn't cure it within 2 seconds which meant they died and the raid wiped , thats what makes healers sad.Watching the group HP and detrimentals , moving to avoid AE or fail conditions, curing your own group , checking the raid window for uncured detrimentals and curing those , moving forward to cure charms as the person is hitting the MT but trying not to get too close to avoid the fatal AEs, getting knocked back and running back to try and get your heals in before the MT dies to incoming damage.Being a healer really has become a ultra-busy profession in some raids , then when raid wipes and the healers get moaned at because one detrimental cured 1 second too late caused a wipe, sometimes it even makes me want to just log for the night.*update : oh and I forgot healing your group up before the next AE hits amongst all that..

Hasad

11-14-2009, 09:15 AM

On a positive note, I haven't heard any of the healers in my raids says they were bored. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />Healers really are the **Superstars** in the TSO raids. I'm always amazed at how they make adjustments and progress a little on each pull until we start to take for granted that the named mobs will go down on the first pull week after week. Some of the best players have dropped their main toons because thier high level of skill are required in those healer positions. I imagine it may have discouraged others playing healers as their mains. Maybe they have rolled toons with less critical roles. Tip of the cap to all healers who persevere and keep pushing those cure buttons.

Seidhkona

11-14-2009, 01:16 PM

<cite>Wullail@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>The curing can get intense....the Raid leader shouting at all the healers in voice chat because someone missed one of the dozens of constant barrages of detrimental icons on another group and didn't cure it within 2 seconds which meant they died and the raid wiped , thats what makes healers sad.</blockquote>You need a raid leader who actually knows how to lead and motivate people then.It is completely unecessary to scream at, berate, curse at, or use other derogatory language towards any raid member.It can be assumed that everyone in a raid wants success, if for no other reason than to get a chance at loot. So calling raid members names and treating them like poop doesn't motivate them. We're ALREADY motivated.I honestly do not know why people stay in raid guilds where this abusive behavior is the norm. There are better leaders out there.

Karrane1

11-14-2009, 02:55 PM

Sigrdrifa, I agree totally with what you just posted. If your raid leader, or anyone else in the raid, yells at you then maybe that isnt the guild you need. Someone in my raid the other night said something to a healer and my guild/raid leader immediately spoke up and said " We dont do that here". No one is ever yelled at like a child for anything. Sure, we all make mistakes and the raid might wipe but we all smile and just try again. Lol.. That mob WILL go down!!! I am a raiding templar and yes, I agree, that the cures are nuts. But its nothing that you arent familiar with already, just speeded up some <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> So play the class that you love! And see for yourself <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

QuestingCrafter

11-14-2009, 03:28 PM

A few thoughts:* I have Level 80, 200-AA, epic'd, T2/T3/T4 Healer, Fighter, Scout, and Mage archetype toons. I used to enjoy playing the Healer most -- not so much after starting whack-a-cure raiding; but it's what's needed, so I submit to the will of the raid force, which makes it feel more like a 'chore' than fun. OTOH, getting the healer more geared-up makes instancing and solo'ing a breeze!* At FanFaire, the devs acknowledged curing was out-of-control (in not so many words -- "the intention was never to stare at the Profit Cure bar the entire fight."), and they're considering what to do about it. I think slightly lowering the recast timer for cure pots, and also putting the mastercrafted versioned potions on their own timer would help.* Most shard instances have at least one cure situation where it's important-to-critical. In Deep Forge, the elemental detriment is a chunky debuff but not heinous ... the bridge in Necrotic Asylum's detriment is very quickly lethal!* You can dip your toe in raiding with Ward of Elements [x2], and you'll only seriously worry about curing _curse_ (L80 healer spell, long-ish recast) for a few of the named mobs; for other fights, people are generally expected to use their own potions to cure their own detriments (though to be honest, I tell the MT I'll cure them, so they can focus on aggro and DPS) -- and I remind people in group "use your own {insert type} pots, I won't be curing you".

Gladiolus

11-15-2009, 08:49 AM

You seem to have missed the most important thing a healer needs - a thick skin. Many people will go out of their way to make your job more difficult, like spreading out so that you'd need to run up and down between them to heal them. Others just have no clue and will refuse to use potions on the grounds that there's a healer to cure everything. Some will assume that they know better than you do how to play your class and won't hesitate to give you "advice". Thumb your nose at the lot of them and just do the job you know you can do. Other than the main tank, if they want to run off alone, they should expect to die alone. If they want to use items that drain their health, that's their choice and they should use the mechanics of the item to replenish it, not expect you to become slave to their items. If they're too miserly to buy potions or too stupid to use them, that's not your problem. I've been playing healers in MMOs for over ten years so I think I know what's required but there are still occasionally idiots telling me what to do. Normally it's the type of person that thinks the rest of the group is there to support him and feels offended if the healer chooses to pay more attention to someone else, rather than to the prima donna continually telling everyone what to do. Take no notice of such people, use /ignore if necessary, relax and enjoy what you're doing. Being a good healer produces tremendous job satisfaction.

Seidhkona

11-15-2009, 12:12 PM

<cite>Gladiolus wrote:</cite><blockquote>You seem to have missed the most important thing a healer needs - a thick skin. Many people will go out of their way to make your job more difficult, like spreading out so that you'd need to run up and down between them to heal them.</blockquote>If folks need to cluster up more, SAY SO, then tell them "You're out of range so I am letting you die". Communication works extremely well. <cite>Gladiolus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Others just have no clue and will refuse to use potions on the grounds that there's a healer to cure everything. Some will assume that they know better than you do how to play your class and won't hesitate to give you "advice".</blockquote>Now that ACT will parse cures, the days of that crap are over. We run a heal parse that shows everyone, and after fights where curing is important you can bet the healer lead and the raid leader look at those cure numbers and address people who are not using potions as required.The ACT output formatting I use for the heal parse is:{n}{NAME5} | {healed%} ({heals}) | Cures {cures} | Crit {critheal%} Communication is king. Point out on the parse the low cure numbers and call the slacker out about it. If they keep doing it, bench them, there are plenty of people out there who want to raid who can manage to follow simple instructions, /shrug.<cite>Gladiolus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Some will assume that they know better than you do how to play your class and won't hesitate to give you "advice".</blockquote>And there are a lot of very good players who have sound information - you should listen politely to suggestions and think about what you're being told. Don't have a big chip on your shoulder. Sure, sometimes people will offer less helpful info, but keep an open mind, maybe it's you who are in a mental misperception and you might try what they suggest. <cite>Gladiolus wrote:</cite><blockquote>If they want to use items that drain their health, that's their choice and they should use the mechanics of the item to replenish it, not expect you to become slave to their items.</blockquote>People wearing Bloodthirsty Chokers or Jewels of Animosity have a responsibility to talk to their group healer(s) about these items. Usually, as a mystic, I have no trouble holding up a group wearing chokers. But there are some situations and some fights in which it's not a good idea, and if I'm struggling with heals I request they remove the items. If they don't, let them die. Again, it's all about communication. Don't sulk about it, talk honestly and openly with your people! <cite>Gladiolus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Being a good healer produces tremendous job satisfaction.</blockquote>I completely agree.

Avirodar

11-15-2009, 01:01 PM

In some ways I like the increased use of curing in TSO. It means healers have to do more than mindlessly mash the same 3 or 4 healing spells until the fight is over, while watching TV or daydreaming about who knows what. It also means on some fights, non-priests have to watch for more than when their ability reuse timers are up.People seem to over-exaggerate the demands of curing. Yes it is more than in prior expansions, but excluding the "Touch" attack from Gynok and Ykesha, very little requires any form of focused reflexive speed. I consider the margin for cat like reflexes to be having clicked a response within 0.75 seconds. Most effects people in this thread will be referring to, give you 6-10 seconds to respond, which I consider walk in the park with cruise control enabled.The only mob in the game that I regard as being overkill for curing, is Anashti Sul. 2 Arcane AEs, 1 Nox AE, 1 single target curse detrimental, 1 temporary curse disarm, and multiple arcane damage shields (that stack), she is the true whack-a-mole cure fest that makes the Avatar of Mischief look like easy street. Otherwise, the touch on Gynok+Ykesha are warranted, and everything else gives ample time.Yes, I am a healer.

Tehom

11-15-2009, 03:09 PM

<cite>Avirodar@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only mob in the game that I regard as being overkill for curing, is Anashti Sul. 2 Arcane AEs, 1 Nox AE, 1 single target curse detrimental, 1 temporary curse disarm, and multiple arcane damage shields (that stack), she is the true whack-a-mole cure fest that makes the Avatar of Mischief look like easy street. Otherwise, the touch on Gynok+Ykesha are warranted, and everything else gives ample time.Yes, I am a healer.</blockquote>It depends a bit which class you are - Anashti isn't so bad for a defiler, for example, since you can completely ignore nether tide, and just single-cure nether mist while group curing abyssal tempest. Munzok, Tyrannus, and Gozak are all worse than anashti for curing as far as I'm concerned. Of course, it's all pretty trivial if you're an inquisitor.

Gisallo

11-15-2009, 04:52 PM

<cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kevincann wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've played MMO's since they first came out, and i've alwyas loved playing healers most of all.I'd happily never do a single point of damage and only heal... I love healing.My current main is an 80 shaman and my 2nd favorite character is my 74 templar. If I had limitlessplay time, i'd also max out a warden/fury/inquisitor.However all this talk about 'fail conditions' and how all the healers are quitting has me spooked.Frankly, i've never raided, and never even done a x2. Heck, I've not done any TSO instances at allyet, except a little deep forge.Amazingly to me, healers aren't in any demand before 80 it seems, so i've not healed much in this gameyet at all..Could someone simply and with no acronyms (I don't know them yet.. only been playing 9 months)explain the common instance/raid progression, and indicate where you start to need to have cat likereflexes to keep the whole raid from wiping, due to not curing fast enough.I'm thnking I might just stop playing the only class I love... as I don't have cat-like reflexes...Thanks,Kev</blockquote>IMO it only becomes discoraging if:A. You don't have what it takes or don't care enough to learn.orB. Ignorant people are blaming you for something that is not at all your fault.</blockquote>Lethe pretty much hit the nail on the head.A) however applies to EVERYONE, not just the healers.You do not really need cat like reflexes. What you need is proper planning. If you do not have the appropriate group cure in the group, then people need to KNOW that they need to have the appropriate pot in order to cure themselves. This is where B) comes in. I can't tell you how many times I have run into people who refuse to pot. My healer is a mystic. That means no elemental group cure. That means on Switchmaster if you want blue vision cured in a timely manner you need to pot yourself if I am the only healer in your group. If you do not pot yourself and are relying on yellow vision and not the detrimental icon to tell if you are going to going to wipe the raid you are screwed and have screwed the raid because I am not going to single target cure every person in my group on Blue vision. using my guilds tactics on the Naga in TOMC, even though I have a nox group cure, if you are out of your healers range and have the nox, pot yourself or you will die, I do not run all over the zone looking for you. In my guild you learn this is the way it is. Otheres may of course be different.As a healer, if you do not like using the /cancel macros illustrated elsewhere, hit escape or just jump. That interrupts whatever and then cure.In the end its not cat like reflexes. What is it? Its proper planning, team work and coordination(read: know when to pot yourself) attention to detail and to quote our guild leader..."Don't panic."

LardLord

11-15-2009, 04:55 PM

<cite>kevincann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Could someone simply and with no acronyms (I don't know them yet.. only been playing 9 months)explain the common instance/raid progression, and indicate where you start to need to have cat likereflexes to keep the whole raid from wiping, due to not curing fast enough.I'm thnking I might just stop playing the only class I love... as I don't have cat-like reflexes...Thanks,Kev</blockquote>As an above poster wrote, there are a total of two encounters in the entire expansion that actually require fast reflexes, and those encounters only demand quick reflexes out of two healers in the raid. If it takes you more than about three seconds to react, then you're going to have problems on a wider range of encounters, but that extra challenge can be overcome.

Gladiolus

11-15-2009, 07:06 PM

<cite>Sigrdrifa@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite> </cite>If folks need to cluster up more, SAY SO, then tell them "You're out of range so I am letting you die". Communication works extremely well.And there are a lot of very good players who have sound information - you should listen politely to suggestions and think about what you're being told. </blockquote>Yes obviously I tell them they're out of range but many seem to think that it's my job to run after them. I follow the tank who is my primary target and that's it, I'm not running after anyone else.The same with the chokers and similar items - usually they aren't a problem but sometimes they are. Most people don't bother telling me they're using them, preferring to shout "heal me!" at regular intervals. Again, if the tank doesn't need my administrations at that moment, I'll heal them. If he does, I'll tell them to take a potion and if they're still alive when I have another heal available, I'll use it.With cures, I'm not talking about "normal" curing which I'm happy to do, but places like Leviathan where I distribute a couple of hundred potions, then still have people dying because they were waiting for me to cure them.As for "advice", if I ever met anyone who actually played a healer and knew what they were talking about, I'd probably listen to what they had to say. The ones that I've come across know nothing about healing except that they need a lot of it and offer pearls of wisdom like asking my templar if she knows she has a group heal and telling my warden to use her reactives.

Kigneer

11-15-2009, 07:19 PM

<cite>Gladiolus wrote:</cite><blockquote>As for "advice", if I ever met anyone who actually played a healer and knew what they were talking about, I'd probably listen to what they had to say. The ones that I've come across know nothing about healing except that they need a lot of it and offer pearls of wisdom like asking my templar if she knows she has a group heal and telling my warden to use her reactives.</blockquote>*Smiles*Welcome to the SoE forums, where folks can play "I know more than you!!/No you don't!!" drama game. Meanwhile, the OP usually leaves shaking his head more confused and frustrated.

Gisallo

11-15-2009, 07:32 PM

<cite>double post</cite>

Seidhkona

11-15-2009, 07:32 PM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gladiolus wrote:</cite><blockquote>As for "advice", if I ever met anyone who actually played a healer and knew what they were talking about, I'd probably listen to what they had to say. The ones that I've come across know nothing about healing except that they need a lot of it and offer pearls of wisdom like asking my templar if she knows she has a group heal and telling my warden to use her reactives.</blockquote>*Smiles*Welcome to the SoE forums, where folks can play "I know more than you!!/No you don't!!" drama game. Meanwhile, the OP usually leaves shaking his head more confused and frustrated.</blockquote>I know. I laughed, seeing as how I have a mystic, a fury, and an inquisitor.

Gisallo

11-15-2009, 07:38 PM

<cite>Gladiolus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sigrdrifa@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>If folks need to cluster up more, SAY SO, then tell them "You're out of range so I am letting you die". Communication works extremely well.And there are a lot of very good players who have sound information - you should listen politely to suggestions and think about what you're being told. </blockquote>Yes obviously I tell them they're out of range but many seem to think that it's my job to run after them. I follow the tank who is my primary target and that's it, I'm not running after anyone else.The same with the chokers and similar items - usually they aren't a problem but sometimes they are. Most people don't bother telling me they're using them, preferring to shout "heal me!" at regular intervals. Again, if the tank doesn't need my administrations at that moment, I'll heal them. If he does, I'll tell them to take a potion and if they're still alive when I have another heal available, I'll use it.With cures, I'm not talking about "normal" curing which I'm happy to do, but places like Leviathan where I distribute a couple of hundred potions, then still have people dying because they were waiting for me to cure them.As for "advice", if I ever met anyone who actually played a healer and knew what they were talking about, I'd probably listen to what they had to say. The ones that I've come across know nothing about healing except that they need a lot of it and offer pearls of wisdom like asking my templar if she knows she has a group heal and telling my warden to use her reactives.</blockquote>Thats where coordination and team work come in. The only time I know I must run around are on fights in VP where the hit bozes are huge IF I have a Ranger in my group. Even then its not to hard. Just know where your ranger is and jog a few feet in each direction. Everything else you note though (Levi, chokers etc.) all comes down to team work and communication. If they aren't potting themselves its on them. If they are running a choker in a fight where its not appropriate (and there are a couple when you are under geared) then its on them. If they are whining and your Guild/class/raid leader isn't schooling them then you have wider problems that a simple post on healers isn't going to help in the least.

kevincann

11-15-2009, 08:21 PM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gladiolus wrote:</cite><blockquote>*Smiles*</blockquote>Welcome to the SoE forums, where folks can play "I know more than you!!/No you don't!!" drama game. Meanwhile, the OP usually leaves shaking his head more confused and frustrated.</blockquote>Bingo! Thought i was on flames for a minute.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I will try to heal up to WOE... and as I probably won't be able to find time to actually raid...this concernmay all be academic for my play-schedule anyway.Kev

Seidhkona

11-15-2009, 09:02 PM

<cite>kevincann wrote:</cite><blockquote>I will try to heal up to WOE... and as I probably won't be able to find time to actually raid...this concernmay all be academic for my play-schedule anyway.Kev</blockquote>There are casual raid guilds out there that only raid on the weekends, or raid two nights during teh week, or... etc. If you decide you enjoy raiding, you can shop around until you find a good guild to go play with.The key, or course, is finding folks who have a schedule compatible with your playstyle. As long as you are having fun, it is all good!

Gladiolus

11-16-2009, 12:38 AM

<cite>Sigrdrifa@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote> As long as you are having fun, it is all good!</blockquote>That, as they say, is the bottom line. If you want to raid then do so but it's not the be-all and end-all of life in Norrath - just do what you enjoy and find a guild of like-minded people to do it with you.By the way, some posters seemed to think the idiots I mentioned referred either to my guildies or to posts made here, whereas I was of course talking about people I'd come across in PUGs.

Kari

11-16-2009, 02:37 AM

<cite>kevincann wrote:</cite><blockquote>I will try to heal up to WOE... and as I probably won't be able to find time to actually raid...this concernmay all be academic for my play-schedule anyway.Kev</blockquote>I really enjoyed the group zones in TSO, they had a fun mix of scripts and curing. The entry tso raid mobs were a lot of fun too. I think for me kultak was the first mob that really made me not enjoy raiding. Part of that was the lag that would sometime blow up the raid before we would see the curse icon on anyone. Some days we go in there and kill first pull and sometimes we are doing just fine and then blow up repeatedly right when we see a curse. It is usually ok but when you have a day like that it leaves a bad taste for a while.If you start WOE with an inexperienced raid, the trash have an aoe detrimental that will kill the group within a few ticks if it isn't cured right away. We had some pretty heavy losses our first time through because we couldn't single cure fast enough to cure the whole raid, and the detrimental type would vary based on the trash mob. Although this looks like an introduction to whack-a-mole, it really isn't. Your tank can interrupt the mobs on pull and prevent the aoe. So if you run into problems in there just get your tank used to interrupts.

Kigneer

11-16-2009, 04:22 AM

<cite>kevincann wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gladiolus wrote:</cite><blockquote>*Smiles*</blockquote>Welcome to the SoE forums, where folks can play "I know more than you!!/No you don't!!" drama game. Meanwhile, the OP usually leaves shaking his head more confused and frustrated.</blockquote>Bingo! Thought i was on flames for a minute.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />I will try to heal up to WOE... and as I probably won't be able to find time to actually raid...this concernmay all be academic for my play-schedule anyway.Kev</blockquote>If you find a good group of people to raid with (not the "fast run" type) you can probably even enjoy raiding. The trick is finding such a good group (PuGs are a hit or miss affair), especially one tolerant of players learning their roles.Usually this is accomplished in a guild with a guildies learning a zone, but for small guilds without enough players to even form a raid, you're at the mercy of PuGs. Guilds asking for more players to fill a raid tend to be the better option -- usually you'll get someone who knows the zone, but more tolerant so they're not racing through the zone and you'll never getting a good lesson in HOW to fight/heal the baddies and detrimentals).Check out chat for guild raids with open slots.....MUCH better!

Mikkahl

11-16-2009, 11:10 AM

<cite>Sigrdrifa@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>On the group cures, here is the list of "who has what":<div><ul><li>Elemental (heat, cold) - Druids (warden, fury) & Inquisitor</li><li>Noxious (poison,disease) - Shamans (mystic, defiler) & Fury</li><li>Arcane (magic, mental, divine)- Clerics (templar, inquisitor) & Mystic</li><li>Trauma (crushing, slashing, piercing, and melee) - Warden, Defiler, Templar </li></ul></div></blockquote>My problem is that, as a Fury, my group cure spell currently takes 2.2 seconds to cast. I click it, watch the spell cast scroll across, meanwhile people are yelling "cure, cure!", then it finally lands!It some effects truly need to be cured in 2 seconds, then my group cure obviously does not cut it!I checked my equipment, and I only have one piece that reduces the cast time of beneficial spells 1% (which reduces my group cure cast time from 2.3 to 2.2 seconds). Do I need to focus on gear that reduces cast time, at the expense of heal crit (now 100+% in raids), crit mit (now 34%), etc.?

Ambrin

11-16-2009, 11:41 AM

Because you do not get the power proc from your mythical like a Warden I would probably suggest you get some +casting speed gear, but I'd try to find it on your jewelry as you really want to keep you critmit as high as possible. Don't go overboard as well, you don't want to lose too much for small gains, especially considering as a fury you already have the fastest casting heals (at least to my knowledge).

Cythera

11-16-2009, 11:52 AM

<cite>Mikkahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite> </cite>My problem is that, as a Fury, my group cure spell currently takes 2.2 seconds to cast. I click it, watch the spell cast scroll across, meanwhile people are yelling "cure, cure!", then it finally lands!It some effects truly need to be cured in 2 seconds, then my group cure obviously does not cut it!I checked my equipment, and I only have one piece that reduces the cast time of beneficial spells 1% (which reduces my group cure cast time from 2.3 to 2.2 seconds). Do I need to focus on gear that reduces cast time, at the expense of heal crit (now 100+% in raids), crit mit (now 34%), etc.?</blockquote>Turn off your dps stance. The group cure is 2 sec cast and if it goes over that it is most likely contributed to the dps stance or a detrimental that is needing to be cured off.

Estean1

11-17-2009, 03:03 AM

As for WoE - Interrupts will REALLY help you out on those trash mobs. If you have a tank with interupts have him tank the zone. The mob that casts the spell thats nasty has an animation and when I run that zone with the tank we never have those effects killing people. If you have a tank class that doesn't have interrupts coordinate the interrupts with a toon in the raid that is capable of doing them. Our guild is about halfway through TSO. The Kultak encounter can get very frustrating especially with the amount of curses landing on the MT group. There are several times where all three healers in MT group have coordinated their cure curse perfectly and we still need 1 or 2 more curses cured before they refresh so we have to call in a "back up" curse curer and even a second "back up" curse curer. General the raids non MT group healers are back a ways while they heal their groups that are jousting the trauma. This leaves me frantically calling in voice to get those healers coordinated before we blow up. As a raid leader that also happens to be a healer I get really frustrated with the amount of healers I have to cram into a raid just to keep up with the cures. In MPS we are just about to down the 4th named in there. Some of those mobs cast group detrimentals that hit pretty hard and cast them at a rate where your group cure is NOT back up yet. And the first encounter has 2 group detrimentals of different types. I have to make sure I have cures covered in every group which usually means 2 to a group unless I have an inquisitor in there. There are some healers in my guild that can handle a group solo that aren't inquisitor but I usually keep those in the MT group. I have been known to bring 9 healers to alot of these zones just for the sole reason I want to keep up on the cures. I am sure someone will say "you need to get better healers" but we are trying our best. Besides healers should have fun too! The frantic feeling when a curse isn't cured or your group dies because of the constant barrage of cures along with your other duites isn't really that fun. Strange stalker isn't that bad for us now that I figured out a few things. Make sure everyone has nox pots and tell them NOT to use them unless there is a call in raid voice to cure nox. I found alot of people were wasting their pots on the other nox that he casts. Also just making sure I had a group nox curer in each group that has /cancel_spellcast on their icon so they can double check everyone got cured. Once you learn to avoid the false nox's its a bit easier. Oh and make sure you are interrupting the mob to hell. All in all the sheer amount of cures needs to be lowered and the amount of fail conditions based solely on the shoulders of the healers needs to be reduced significantly. Getting away from the cure curse fail condition, shortening the recast time on group heals and potion use would help alot.

Tehom

11-17-2009, 04:55 AM

As a few suggestions: Probably the easiest way to coordinate curse cures is just to have everyone macro their cast to announce it in raid and everyone but the first one to cast cancel redundant cures. You can still have some messups, but as people get the hang of it, you'll usually have curse cures go better. It'll also help prepare for the fights that have -really- demanding curse cures, since Kultak doesn't have very as many curses cast as some other fights later on, like Gynok, Tyrannus, etc. One thing that might help you with the raidwipes you'll run into is that most that aren't curses are represented by an incurable detrimental on people who have them - like incurable nox during Zarrakon for example, incurable elemental on Mynzak, etc. So as a raid leader you can usually nudge people who somehow manage to miss large red letters flashing across their screen or their screen turning colors.Make sure all your bards are specced to add 767 mitigation to their defense song - the AA is called 'Strengthened Links' in the scout tier of the Shadows tree. It makes a pretty significant difference on the physical AEs you're starting to run into. You may need to ask mages to respec their character traits to be for max hp, since that's counterintuitive for a lot of players who take max power as casters. You may also need to nudge people to use expert elixirs of constitution as they begin to cap their crit value at 115 - a lot of players stop using crit potions as they cap but forget they now have that as an alternative. Similarly, mages should be using reinforced wrist adorns since their int is probably long-since capped, and hp adorns on rings and shoulders.Some of your priests may not be specced for curing. Make sure your shamans have the herbal expertise AA that'll halve cast times on their single-target cure. You may want to politely nudge some of them to have coagulate too if one-shots are a problem - a lot of shamans don't take it in favor of Ritual of Alacrity and the strength tree, but it's a fairly significant swing on a lot of these fights. If you have templars with mana cure, you might need to suggest who they put it on based on the fight if they're not really aware of which classes deal which kinds of damage - not a big deal, mind you, but it's better than them never having it fire at all by putting it on the wrong person.

Dareena

11-17-2009, 10:35 AM

<cite>Mikkahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>I checked my equipment, and I only have one piece that reduces the cast time of beneficial spells 1% (which reduces my group cure cast time from 2.3 to 2.2 seconds). Do I need to focus on gear that reduces cast time, at the expense of heal crit (now 100+% in raids), crit mit (now 34%), etc.?</blockquote>Well if you're feeling like you're casting too slow, there are a couple of pieces that are 'easy' to get that I can think of off the top of my head. Your best bet is the Hoop of Fire Worship from the LS blue shiny collection. I think that it's called Najena's Lab Equipment. (All of the shinies are called Najena's <....>.) You can get +4 Heal Crit and +4% reduction is beneficial cast speed.Also there's a CL zone Fabled drop ring that has similar benefits to the ear ring mentioned above. (The ring just has better stats and resists.) This item was added to the 150 shard merchant in Moors if you can't get it to drop for you by running the CL zones. I'm currently blanking on the actual name of the ring.Otherwise if you've got 172+ AA, then I'd suggest that you try to sit in your healer stance.

mrsma

11-17-2009, 10:36 AM

<cite>Transen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Cat-like reflexes do help but can also burn a healer out if they're constantly needing to use them. As a raiding warden, I've learned (albeit painfully) to pick and choose whom I cure and what needs to be cured as apposed to what can be left alone. The raid force on a whole needs to bring their own cure potions too as healers can't just stop healing to cure wall to wall afflictions.Healers also need to bring cure potions. Not to pass around to those that didn't bring any but to cure themselves of certain raid afflictions that force you to target something else during it's duration and thus unable to target yourself for a cure or someone other than the main tank who needs an extra heal. The cure potion allows you to circumvent the affliction's forced-target in order to cure it.Now what holds true to raiding in how you handle cures and heals also holds true to the group instances. Having a healer in the raid/group is not a free ticket to mindless button pressing for other class-types. If the classes who's role it is to dish out damage during a fight are getting low on health from hitting on an enemy with a damage-inflicting shield on, then they need to stop attacking until their health is up or risk death from further attacks or Area-Effect damage abilities of the enemy.Yes, it's a healer's job to keep everyone in their raid/group alive. But it's not the job of every other class-type to make a healer's job any more difficult than what can't be avoided.</blockquote>THIS.....................

Avirodar

11-17-2009, 12:33 PM

A few people speak about all healers needing cat like reflexes in TSO... I do not agree with such a notion. I regard cat like reflexes as something that requires a response to be issued in under half a second. But for EQ2's sake, I will slow it down to 3 seconds, and then allow an additional 2 second cast time on top to bring the total response time to 5 seconds...So what stands to wipe a raid or group if priests can not handle a 5 second response time?WoE - If the hard hitting DoTs from trash mobs are landing you are doing something wrong.The only encounters I can see any valid claims to needing fast reflexes on, as a priest, is when curing the curse effects on the Gynok, Ykesha and Gozak encounters. Gynok and Ykesha only require 2 priests to be paying attention to a very timable single target effect. Gozak merely requires priests to be co-ordinated and work as a team (which is the concept of raiding!).So as a healer who has cleared every current raid zone in EQ2, I disagree with the claims that healers in TSO require cat like reflexes. There are some encounters which require you to react within 6-10 seconds, but if a 6 to 10 second reaction time is "cat like" for you, all I can say is start paying attention and stop watching TV.

Yimway

11-17-2009, 12:42 PM

<cite>Avirodar@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>A few people speak about all healers needing cat like reflexes in TSO... I do not agree with such a notion. I regard cat like reflexes as something that requires a response to be issued in under half a second. But for EQ2's sake, I will slow it down to 3 seconds, and then allow an additional 2 second cast time on top to bring the total response time to 5 seconds...</blockquote>In order to single target cure a group from a raidwide aoe before the first tick that you don't have the ability to group cure, requires you to have a negative reaction time to the effect, in that you must recognize the cast animation and time your cure to land just as the effect does, then proceed to each member and cure them with a <300ms hesitation (including recovery time) between them.Cure with max casting speed becomes a .5s cast and a .25s recovery. So thats 4.5s to cure the aoe that ticks at 4s. If you time your first cure to land exactly when the aoe does, you have exactly enough time to cure everyone on a 4s tick dot. No margin for error, not even a ms to spare.This is an extreme example, but one that healers are expected to come close to in TSO. Generally you can expect a cure from an out of group healer that had a group cure for this affliction type, so that buys you 750ms of fudge time in the above math.Don't bother mentioning pots, as the group already blew their pot timer on the other aoe that landed 6 seconds ago.As a whole in TSO, healers are held to a faster reaction time response than any other class, faster by a long shot.

Avirodar

11-17-2009, 12:58 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Avirodar@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>A few people speak about all healers needing cat like reflexes in TSO... I do not agree with such a notion. I regard cat like reflexes as something that requires a response to be issued in under half a second. But for EQ2's sake, I will slow it down to 3 seconds, and then allow an additional 2 second cast time on top to bring the total response time to 5 seconds...</blockquote>In order to single target cure a group from a raidwide aoe before the first tick that you don't have the ability to group cure, requires you to have a negative reaction time to the effect, in that you must recognize the cast animation and time your cure to land just as the effect does, then proceed to each member and cure them with a <300ms hesitation (including recovery time) between them.Cure with max casting speed becomes a .5s cast and a .25s recovery. So thats 4.5s to cure the aoe that ticks at 4s. If you time your first cure to land exactly when the aoe does, you have exactly enough time to cure everyone on a 4s tick dot. No margin for error, not even a ms to spare.This is an extreme example, but one that healers are expected to come close to in TSO. Generally you can expect a cure from an out of group healer that had a group cure for this affliction type, so that buys you 750ms of fudge time in the above math.Don't bother mentioning pots, as the group already blew their pot timer on the other aoe that landed 6 seconds ago.As a whole in TSO, healers are held to a faster reaction time response than any other class, faster by a long shot.</blockquote>What encounter are you talking about.If you want to make claims about specific situations where two AEs can land within 6 seconds of each other, and both require being cured within 4 seconds of landing, please include the mob in mention.Otherwise, you are just making up numbers and giving no facts.

Yimway

11-17-2009, 01:07 PM

<cite>Avirodar@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>What encounter are you talking about.If you want to make claims about specific situations where two AEs can land within 6 seconds of each other, and both require being cured within 4 seconds of landing, please include the mob in mention.Otherwise, you are just making up numbers and giving no facts.</blockquote>Play a single healer on Tyrrnus, Tythus or Ylznak.While you can cure some of the afflictions beyond the first tick, they can land all 3 within 10s of each other and if you don't cure before the tick, you can get behind in a heartbeat.If you can only affect one via group cure, rely on potions for one more, you're stuck with the 3rd to be dealt with via single targets. Add the damage shield cures that need to happen in the interim, and the curse cures, possible knockback and interupts, yeah, the reaction times / expectations we place on healers is pretty darn extreme.

Banditman

11-17-2009, 01:25 PM

The only important cure on Tyrannus is Trauma. You've got like 10 seconds to cure the Nox / Ele AE's. Oh, don't get me wrong. They are absolutely fatal if not cured. but it's a very reasonable period of time.Tythus is definitely more quickly fatal, but mainly because Voidslide comes so fast. If your group isn't green, Voidslide is probably gonna kill someone. So, even though you can probably take a tick or two of the Ele / Arcane on Tythus, the Voidslide that's coming (soon!) is gonna kill ya. Still, we've found that having two healers per group makes Tythus easy and thus, we do it that way. An Inquisitor can easily solo heal a group for Tythus, but right now, it's really tough on any other class.Ylznak? Fatal AE's? I mean, yea, the PB Trauma is killer, but it's easily timeable and not something you need a cure for. There's the elemental . . . plenty of time on that one. I dunno, I don't think you meant Ylznak. This is the doppleganger mob . . .

Avirodar

11-17-2009, 01:57 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Avirodar@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>What encounter are you talking about.If you want to make claims about specific situations where two AEs can land within 6 seconds of each other, and both require being cured within 4 seconds of landing, please include the mob in mention.Otherwise, you are just making up numbers and giving no facts.</blockquote>Play a single healer on Tyrrnus, Tythus or Ylznak.While you can cure some of the afflictions beyond the first tick, they can land all 3 within 10s of each other and if you don't cure before the tick, you can get behind in a heartbeat.If you can only affect one via group cure, rely on potions for one more, you're stuck with the 3rd to be dealt with via single targets. Add the damage shield cures that need to happen in the interim, and the curse cures, possible knockback and interupts, yeah, the reaction times / expectations we place on healers is pretty darn extreme.</blockquote>I have solo healed Tyrranus, Tythus and Ylzak.The only time I have seen curing become more than a leisurely pace on Ylzak is when the raid is doing something wrong. The cures are also not fail-condition material.Regarding Tyrannus, there is a minimum time between when the noxious and elemental can hit. If people are triggering fail condition penalties, they need to re-evaluate their choices and strategies. The number of AEs may be testing for a solo healer in an undergeared raid force, but an undergeared raid force attempting to run solo healers on both Tythus and Tyrranus, deserve what they get.So for the big bad cure intensive TSO only 3 encounters qualified? Add Anashti, that's 4... Ykesha ring event, 5.If that has healers up in arms and in distress about how unbearably demanding TSO is, I do not know what to say to them beside : man up.PS: I would actually like to thank SOE for something (which is very rare for me, lol). Some TSO raid encounters require healers to work together, and show some basic level of co-ordination and co-operation. This is a GOOD thing. In past expansions, many healers complained about being bored, and felt they had no option except to DPS when outside of tank groups. TSO has finally given people who play a healer, more healer orientated things to do.

Kigneer

11-17-2009, 03:02 PM

<cite>Avirodar@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>PS: I would actually like to thank SOE for something (which is very rare for me, lol). Some TSO raid encounters require healers to work together, and show some basic level of co-ordination and co-operation. This is a GOOD thing. In past expansions, many healers complained about being bored, and felt they had no option except to DPS when outside of tank groups. TSO has finally given people who play a healer, more healer orientated things to do.</blockquote>And like always, SoE went overboard and burned out a heck of a lot of healers in the process. When good healers are taking a holiday; going Anonymous (to avoid being asked by every Tom, D-i-c-k and Harry [SoE use a conditional for word filters this is getting crazy]); or playing some other class...yep..."something to do" was too extreme.

Avirodar

11-17-2009, 03:30 PM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Avirodar@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>PS: I would actually like to thank SOE for something (which is very rare for me, lol). Some TSO raid encounters require healers to work together, and show some basic level of co-ordination and co-operation. This is a GOOD thing. In past expansions, many healers complained about being bored, and felt they had no option except to DPS when outside of tank groups. TSO has finally given people who play a healer, more healer orientated things to do.</blockquote>And like always, SoE went overboard and burned out a heck of a lot of healers in the process. When good healers are taking a holiday; going Anonymous (to avoid being asked by every Tom, D-i-c-k and Harry [SoE use a conditional for word filters this is getting crazy]); or playing some other class...yep..."something to do" was too extreme.</blockquote>What, are you trying to say that healers are getting "burned out", because they actually have to do something that requires concentration on about five raid encounters? LOL... The poor babies. What would they prefer, something where they can watch TV after putting autofollow on a random scout, and check in during the advertisement break to see if someone needs a patch heal or some kind of cure?The situation for healers is not nearly as bad as some are trying to make out. The proof of this is the lack of actual examples of how this expansion is overkill on cure demands. All these nameless rants and raves about mysterious fail conditions and waves of 2nd tick equals death DoTs, when the reality is there is only a small handful of raid encounters that require notable attention and prompt reactions, unless the group or raid is doing something very wrong.

Tehom

11-17-2009, 04:45 PM

<cite>Avirodar@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have solo healed Tyrranus, Tythus and Ylzak.The only time I have seen curing become more than a leisurely pace on Ylzak is when the raid is doing something wrong. The cures are also not fail-condition material.Regarding Tyrannus, there is a minimum time between when the noxious and elemental can hit. If people are triggering fail condition penalties, they need to re-evaluate their choices and strategies. The number of AEs may be testing for a solo healer in an undergeared raid force, but an undergeared raid force attempting to run solo healers on both Tythus and Tyrranus, deserve what they get.So for the big bad cure intensive TSO only 3 encounters qualified? Add Anashti, that's 4... Ykesha ring event, 5.If that has healers up in arms and in distress about how unbearably demanding TSO is, I do not know what to say to them beside : man up.PS: I would actually like to thank SOE for something (which is very rare for me, lol). Some TSO raid encounters require healers to work together, and show some basic level of co-ordination and co-operation. This is a GOOD thing. In past expansions, many healers complained about being bored, and felt they had no option except to DPS when outside of tank groups. TSO has finally given people who play a healer, more healer orientated things to do.</blockquote>I've solo healed them too, and it's a lot harder for others than an inquisitor. About Tyrannus, it's not some huge coincidence that almost all our flawless kills have been when we've had multiple inquisitors. Your class is just ridiculously strong on those fights, and everyone knows it. I'd probably list Qxectus as being a little cure intensive since his AEs and dread gaze can overlap and Munzok is since neither of the two AEs that matter can be potion cured. I don't really think Anashti is all that bad, and certainly not as bad as Tyrannus for me to solo-heal - You can ignore Nether Tide on anashti completely, so you can just choose to group cure either Mist or Tempest and single/pot cure the other, and I think the additional reactives from Anashti versus reflect is kind of a wash.Just solo-heal the encounters without using your mythical clicky, and then it'll pretty much represent how it is for everyone else. It still isn't that hard to do, your clicky just trivializes them all.

Avirodar

11-17-2009, 10:20 PM

<cite>Chath@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've solo healed them too, and it's a lot harder for others than an inquisitor. About Tyrannus, it's not some huge coincidence that almost all our flawless kills have been when we've had multiple inquisitors. Your class is just ridiculously strong on those fights, and everyone knows it. I'd probably list Qxectus as being a little cure intensive since his AEs and dread gaze can overlap and Munzok is since neither of the two AEs that matter can be potion cured. I don't really think Anashti is all that bad, and certainly not as bad as Tyrannus for me to solo-heal - You can ignore Nether Tide on anashti completely, so you can just choose to group cure either Mist or Tempest and single/pot cure the other, and I think the additional reactives from Anashti versus reflect is kind of a wash.Just solo-heal the encounters without using your mythical clicky, and then it'll pretty much represent how it is for everyone else. It still isn't that hard to do, your clicky just trivializes them all.</blockquote>Then maybe your guilds healers need to man up on Tyrannus, as I have seen templars, mystics and defilers solo heal groups with ease. Regardless of that, people are complaining about it being oh so hard for healers, making out every encounter is some ungodly whackamole for both heroic and raid content, and its burning healers out. It is not.So far, the only examples anyone has been able to give me, is a mere handful of mid to upper end epic*4 raid mobs.If that is the best anyone can do, the whole argument about things being discouraging for healers has no merit. Even Chath said "It still isn't thard hard to do". Epic*4 named raid mobs are not meant to be a walk in the park. SOE has a few of the *4 encounters set up to be more AOE cure intensive than the rest, but still perfectly manageable, which is fine.

Seidhkona

11-17-2009, 10:26 PM

Sometimes if a mob is too hard that just means your raidforce needs to back up and gear up the healers a little better before pushing on that particular area of progression /shrug.

Hamervelder

11-17-2009, 10:32 PM

urgthock

11-18-2009, 11:22 AM

<cite>Avirodar@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>What, are you trying to say that healers are getting "burned out", because they actually have to do something that requires concentration on about five raid encounters? LOL... The poor babies. What would they prefer, something where they can watch TV after putting autofollow on a random scout, and check in during the advertisement break to see if someone needs a patch heal or some kind of cure?The situation for healers is not nearly as bad as some are trying to make out. The proof of this is the lack of actual examples of how this expansion is overkill on cure demands. All these nameless rants and raves about mysterious fail conditions and waves of 2nd tick equals death DoTs, when the reality is there is only a small handful of raid encounters that require notable attention and prompt reactions, unless the group or raid is doing something very wrong.</blockquote>LOLZ... you're an inquisitor. 'Nuff said.

Wullail

11-18-2009, 11:42 AM

<cite>Mikkahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sigrdrifa@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>On the group cures, here is the list of "who has what":<div><ul><li>Elemental (heat, cold) - Druids (warden, fury) & Inquisitor</li><li>Noxious (poison,disease) - Shamans (mystic, defiler) & Fury</li><li>Arcane (magic, mental, divine)- Clerics (templar, inquisitor) & Mystic</li><li>Trauma (crushing, slashing, piercing, and melee) - Warden, Defiler, Templar </li></ul></div></blockquote>My problem is that, as a Fury, my group cure spell currently takes 2.2 seconds to cast. I click it, watch the spell cast scroll across, meanwhile people are yelling "cure, cure!", then it finally lands!It some effects truly need to be cured in 2 seconds, then my group cure obviously does not cut it!</blockquote>Your reply should be....use cure pots , use cure pots!

Yimway

11-18-2009, 12:31 PM

<cite>urgthock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Avirodar@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>What, are you trying to say that healers are getting "burned out", because they actually have to do something that requires concentration on about five raid encounters? LOL... The poor babies. What would they prefer, something where they can watch TV after putting autofollow on a random scout, and check in during the advertisement break to see if someone needs a patch heal or some kind of cure?The situation for healers is not nearly as bad as some are trying to make out. The proof of this is the lack of actual examples of how this expansion is overkill on cure demands. All these nameless rants and raves about mysterious fail conditions and waves of 2nd tick equals death DoTs, when the reality is there is only a small handful of raid encounters that require notable attention and prompt reactions, unless the group or raid is doing something very wrong.</blockquote>LOLZ... you're an inquisitor. 'Nuff said.</blockquote>Yeah I was going to respond more, but came to the same conclusion <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />My point stands though, Healers are held to a much higher reaction time requirement than any other archtype. This is particularly displeasing for many of them as many players gravitated to these classes as they were less persistently demanding to play as compaired to a tank or dps class.Having done these fights on both an inquisitor, a mystic, and a defiler, I can say with an inquisitor they are mostly trivial. Getting things cleared off before the ticks get me behind on heals playing the mystic was extremely taxing and the slightest lag frequently resulted in one person dieing. Tack on the dps nerfing reflection detrimentals that pop like popcorn on top of 2-3 raid wide aoe's and a rotatiing curse needing cure its sometimes a wonder I have any time to actually heal on some of these fights.I play the healer to help out as needed, if it was my main and I had to raid it day in and day out, no way. I can do it, but to say its fun or rewarding? Not remotely for me.

Pyra Shineflame

11-18-2009, 01:37 PM

It becomes discouraging when people assign far more responsibility to you than you have, blame you for things that were not your fault and generally don't take the time to think about what and how important your role is. Everything else is gravy.

Avirodar

11-18-2009, 02:59 PM

<cite>urgthock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Avirodar@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>What, are you trying to say that healers are getting "burned out", because they actually have to do something that requires concentration on about five raid encounters? The situation for healers is not nearly as bad as some are trying to make out. The proof of this is the lack of actual examples of how this expansion is overkill on cure demands.</blockquote>LOLZ... you're an inquisitor. 'Nuff said.</blockquote>As expected, you have added nothing to support how this expansion is "hard" on healers.It seems that beyond a mere handful of higher end raid encounters (which should rightflully provide a challenge for solo healers), no one can give any resounding evidence as to how this expansion is too difficult on healers for curing purposes.Some people have attempted to imply that the second tick on most DoT effects is lethal. The truth is, most DoTs can be healed through for a few ticks without issues. The DoT's where the second tick is lethal for most of a group, are a severe minority.The facts speak for themselves. People are not listing vast numbers of heroic+raid encounters that have unreasonable cure requirements (when a priests group cure + single cures + potion usage is not enough). The reason is because they can not.Jump up and down, point out I am an Inquisitor all you want. But if you're crying about how curing is so hard in TSO that it drives healers away, when you struggle to list more than 6 TSO mobs that test a healers curing, expect me to laugh at the people who complain that it is too much to handle. Sometimes I wonder how these people survived back when there was 4 cures (cure trauma, cure noxious, cure elemental, cure arcane).

Yimway

11-18-2009, 03:13 PM

<cite>Avirodar@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Some people have attempted to imply that the second tick on most DoT effects is lethal. The truth is, most DoTs can be healed through for a few ticks without issues. The DoT's where the second tick is lethal for most of a group, are a severe minority.</blockquote>The second or third tick is or can be lethal when it comes with another raidwide aoe. Depending on how overgeared you are for the encounter, the more lethal that case will be.

LardLord

11-18-2009, 03:23 PM

You're probably going to want 7-8 healers for these fights until you're overgeared for them, and it's even more "trivial" for two healers to keep a group cured/alive on fights like Tythus and Tyrannus than it is for an Inquisitor alone.

Tehom

11-18-2009, 03:37 PM

<cite>Avirodar@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>As expected, you have added nothing to support how this expansion is "hard" on healers.It seems that beyond a mere handful of higher end raid encounters (which should rightflully provide a challenge for solo healers), no one can give any resounding evidence as to how this expansion is too difficult on healers for curing purposes.Some people have attempted to imply that the second tick on most DoT effects is lethal. The truth is, most DoTs can be healed through for a few ticks without issues. The DoT's where the second tick is lethal for most of a group, are a severe minority.</blockquote>Okay. DoTs that have greatly enhanced effects from either being uncured, overlap, or from their first delayed tick:Tythus (one-shot on overlap), Tyrannus (one-shot on overlap), Strange Stalker (one-shot if uncured), Thet-Em-Tua (one-shot if uncured), Gozak (initial hit of DoTs do nothing, everything is loaded into second tick, and banish), Takla (power drain on next tick) in Field General encounter, Nax Sorast (power drain on next tick) in Gynok encounter, Vin/Marn Moltar (one-shot if uncured, curse) in Gynok encounter, Mynzak (one-shot on overlap), Munzok(one-shot on overlap), Zarrakon (power drain from his main AE would qualify for second tick, but also there's a rarely seen but possible focus effect overlap from add AE and his regular), Gynok (curse, obviously), Ykesha (curse, obviously), frogs in the ykesha ring (huge mit debuff if uncured, produces one-shot from any damage), Qxectus (dread gaze). Those are all the effects where it's either impossible or very ineffective to 'heal through'.AE Effects that [Removed for Content] your damage and/or healing if not cured quickly/instantly:Nether Mist (Anashti sul), Abyssal Tempest (Anashti Sul), both the trauma and nox of Munzok, Void slide of Tythus, impairment/mandate on field general/ykesha, think one of Kervis's AEs, AE on Pentaclypse and Abstallius (cast speed debuff), Gozak's trauma AE. I'm probably forgetting a few. Of course ignoring all the reactives in the expansion. Those are all the effects where curing speed is going to play a pretty large role in dps (or even healing for the 500% base heal decreasers).

Yimway

11-18-2009, 04:16 PM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're probably going to want 7-8 healers for these fights until you're overgeared for them, and it's even more "trivial" for two healers to keep a group cured/alive on fights like Tythus and Tyrannus than it is for an Inquisitor alone.</blockquote>8 slots for healers, check8 slots for bards/ench, check2-3 slots for fighters, check1 slot for a brig, checkThat leaves us 4 slots for everyone else <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

d1anaw

11-18-2009, 04:34 PM

<cite>kevincann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thanks for the replies...It sure sounds like it's not that fun to be a healer 80+.I don't know that many people in the game yet, but all the healersi've taked to, have at a minimum, made a supposedly (in comparison)brainless utility class to just have fun 1/2 the time to recharge their batteries.I guess that's why i'm thinking of taking my 77 Illy to 80... as a 1/2 buff-botthe pressure should be much less I'd imagine.I guess I don't understand why most games put so much pressure on the healers..as it is, the DPS-crazed mindset of many players is not condusive to getting people toplay healers, even without all the fail-condition stress.I guess I'm always interested in the psychology of mmo players and game developers.-Kev</blockquote>With one exception, I have all healers. I have one that has been at 80 for over a year and I've never raided with her at that level. So to be honest, I was completely unaware of all the cure stuff. There is plenty I haven't done even with two level 80s. I don't think raiding is a necessity unless I guess you have no life. It's too time intensive for my taste. I've dabbled with melee types and with a couple of the other caster types, cannot stand them. I much prefer the priests. The one exception I have is a level 80 wizzie that I love. I came over to EQ2 from EQ in the beginning and have done very few raids, only those that were required to complete some heritage quests at lower levels. I don't find them enjoyable. I find the egos a PIA. I find the time requirements unacceptable. And if you are the lone priest, it can be difficult to maintain focus on everyone, especially if you have a couple of idiotic hotheads that believe themselves to be invincible and then get ticked because they did something stupid and you couldn't save them. I've died more times than I can count because they didn't protect me and I spent my time trying to keep everyone else alive at my own expense. You can play the game without raiding and even to cap level. I guess it's a matter of what is most important to you. I play for pasttime, not as a lifestyle. So it isn't important to me to be the most uber of the uber. And quite honestly, I don't care to play with those for whom the game is all consuming. I prefer small groups and soloing and it works quite fine.

Avirodar

11-18-2009, 04:47 PM

<cite>Chath@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Okay. DoTs that have greatly enhanced effects from either being uncured, overlap, or from their first delayed tick:Tythus (one-shot on overlap), Tyrannus (one-shot on overlap), Strange Stalker (one-shot if uncured), Thet-Em-Tua (one-shot if uncured), Gozak (initial hit of DoTs do nothing, everything is loaded into second tick, and banish), Takla (power drain on next tick) in Field General encounter, Nax Sorast (power drain on next tick) in Gynok encounter, Vin/Marn Moltar (one-shot if uncured, curse) in Gynok encounter, Mynzak (one-shot on overlap), Munzok(one-shot on overlap), Zarrakon (power drain from his main AE would qualify for second tick, but also there's a rarely seen but possible focus effect overlap from add AE and his regular), Gynok (curse, obviously), Ykesha (curse, obviously), frogs in the ykesha ring (huge mit debuff if uncured, produces one-shot from any damage), Qxectus (dread gaze). Those are all the effects where it's either impossible or very ineffective to 'heal through'.AE Effects that [Removed for Content] your damage and/or healing if not cured quickly/instantly:Nether Mist (Anashti sul), Abyssal Tempest (Anashti Sul), both the trauma and nox of Munzok, Void slide of Tythus, impairment/mandate on field general/ykesha, think one of Kervis's AEs, AE on Pentaclypse and Abstallius (cast speed debuff), Gozak's trauma AE. I'm probably forgetting a few. Of course ignoring all the reactives in the expansion. Those are all the effects where curing speed is going to play a pretty large role in dps (or even healing for the 500% base heal decreasers).</blockquote>ZZZzzzZZZzzzZZZzzzMost of your list is garbage where plenty of time (over 7 seconds) to cure is provided, via group cure, single cure, or potion cure. Even better is most of what you listed can be negated entirely by cure potions if the group is stuck with a solo healer that is lacking an ideal group cure.Tythus does not one shot on overlap. Elemental potions work great.Tyrannus focus damage can be avoided by a single potion cure (within 7s) every 30 seconds.Munzok focus damage can be avoided by a single potion cure (within 9s) every 35 seconds. Takla and Nax only hit a small handful of people. Easy to take care of with a couple of single cures.Vin/Marn give around 10 seconds to cure the curse... This is ample time for a zone boss encounter.Penta/Ulta, a nox pot cure at approx 45 second intervals... Hardly stressful.Mynzak focus damage can be avoided by a single elemental potion cure (within 10s) about every 40 secondsIf the solo healing priest has a relevant cure for the encounter, things become a whole lot easier. All the while, the time requirements remain just as generous. Put two priests in the group and it becomes easymode.TSO makes healers cure, yes. But it is not hard. Raid mobs punishing healers who are slower than a slug in winter, or a raid with bad group setups, or people who are to arrogant to use a cure potion, is only fitting. If you want easy raids, raid easy content. If you want good loot from challenging raids, expect to have to earn it.If this is discouraging for you, perhaps try hello kitty online adventures, I hear it is less cure intensive.

kevincann

11-18-2009, 05:46 PM

<cite>d1anaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kevincann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thanks for the replies...It sure sounds like it's not that fun to be a healer 80+.I don't know that many people in the game yet, but all the healersi've taked to, have at a minimum, made a supposedly (in comparison)brainless utility class to just have fun 1/2 the time to recharge their batteries.I guess that's why i'm thinking of taking my 77 Illy to 80... as a 1/2 buff-botthe pressure should be much less I'd imagine.I guess I don't understand why most games put so much pressure on the healers..as it is, the DPS-crazed mindset of many players is not condusive to getting people toplay healers, even without all the fail-condition stress.I guess I'm always interested in the psychology of mmo players and game developers.-Kev</blockquote>With one exception, I have all healers. I have one that has been at 80 for over a year and I've never raided with her at that level. So to be honest, I was completely unaware of all the cure stuff. There is plenty I haven't done even with two level 80s. I don't think raiding is a necessity unless I guess you have no life. It's too time intensive for my taste. I've dabbled with melee types and with a couple of the other caster types, cannot stand them. I much prefer the priests. The one exception I have is a level 80 wizzie that I love. I came over to EQ2 from EQ in the beginning and have done very few raids, only those that were required to complete some heritage quests at lower levels. I don't find them enjoyable. I find the egos a PIA. I find the time requirements unacceptable. And if you are the lone priest, it can be difficult to maintain focus on everyone, especially if you have a couple of idiotic hotheads that believe themselves to be invincible and then get ticked because they did something stupid and you couldn't save them. I've died more times than I can count because they didn't protect me and I spent my time trying to keep everyone else alive at my own expense. You can play the game without raiding and even to cap level. I guess it's a matter of what is most important to you. I play for pasttime, not as a lifestyle. So it isn't important to me to be the most uber of the uber. And quite honestly, I don't care to play with those for whom the game is all consuming. I prefer small groups and soloing and it works quite fine.</blockquote>I feel the same way. I also pretty much only like to play healers as well.However, because i'm mentally damaged apparently, I can't even get a group to do a 6-man run.So I'm pondering cancelling my 3 accounts.I've soloed to to the 70-80 range 6 times so far.. that's enough.If I can't get a group, no matter what I do, it's time to quit the game.-Kev

LardLord

11-18-2009, 09:11 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>8 slots for healers, check8 slots for bards/ench, check2-3 slots for fighters, check1 slot for a brig, checkThat leaves us 4 slots for everyone else <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Well that's going to be a good raid setup for most progression mobs. For the four extra slots take two Sorcerers, a Swashbuckler, and a Predator, and you'd be rocking...great setup for Tythus or Tyrannus.On the other hand, if you set healers up to fail, of course it's going to be stressful for them.

Avirodar

11-18-2009, 10:57 PM

Ahh, Kevicann and D1anaw are floating on the magic bliss of the internet, pointing the finger and saying "no life" at raiders, when here they are on the text forums for a 5 year old fantasy based online multiplayer game, talking about how many max level characters they have in the current expansion. It is very ironic, if not hypocritical.Kevicann, clutch at what ever straws you like, as to why you both never get groups. The fault is not the game. I group with a lot of random people, but if you act the same on your local server as you do on these forum boards, I can see exactly why people do not want to group with you. I suggest re-evaluating your attitude if you want to succeed in an MMO.D1anaw, the driving force behind why most people play any kind of game, is the desire to face challenges and work toward victory. You have the whole "burned-in-the-past" thing going. You raided once, and it sounds like you were in some ugly mess of a pickup raid, that was likely lacking leadership and full of unskilled, undergeared players. If a game with no challenge is what you desire, you lucked out with the game you picked.So short of a handful of raid mobs, I have been able to conclude that healing in TSO is quite easy. This is of course, unless you are so slow that a reaction time of almost 10 seconds is too fast, in which case the fault is not the game.

Mikkahl

11-19-2009, 02:19 AM

<cite>Cythera@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mikkahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>My problem is that, as a Fury, my group cure spell currently takes 2.2 seconds to cast. I click it, watch the spell cast scroll across, meanwhile people are yelling "cure, cure!", then it finally lands!</blockquote>Turn off your dps stance. The group cure is 2 sec cast and if it goes over that it is most likely contributed to the dps stance or a detrimental that is needing to be cured off.</blockquote>Thanks a bunch folks! It's not being in heal stance (which does not reduce cast times), but it IS being in DPS stance (which add 20% to cast times for beneficial spells). Being second healer in a group and having plenty of heal crit in a raid, I usually run in DPS gear and stance to maximize the one thing a Fury brings, which is having the highest damage among the healer classes (although still not much compared to the non-healers!). But even if I'm in DPS gear I'll probably never use DPS stance again, simply because I have to be able to cure as fast as possible.In heal stance my group cure cast time is 1.8 seconds now (instead of 2.2 seconds in DPS stance).I'll also look into the extra cast time reduction pieces mentioned.

Starack

11-19-2009, 04:00 AM

Sounds like the typical opinion stand off over this raid curing/healer and burnout topic. I don't know how it is on all servers but certainly on mine I do see a lot of roster chop in many raid guilds particularly for healer classes, could cite many reasons other than burnout but it definitely has been an issue all expansion. Since we are talking about raid healing issues I'll add my bit too. The curses were supposed to bring in element of strategy and coordination amongst the healers for a number of fights, they do but they also do not at the same time, it is not consistent. Once you cracked all of that it just boring, tedious stuff you have to do, it's not a challenge its a chore. It is the constant back ground scanning of your group/whole raid for damage shield stuff or other tricks, that leaves little time to do fun stuff on name fights like maybe doing some decent priest style dps, that is what kills the fun of doing the raid content in TSO as a healer, for me personally more often than not. It also depends how spammy your raid is with macros/channel usage etc and how much stuff is flying in voice chat, a lot of info during the raid is completely unnecessary to more than three to six specific people, usually, depending on how you work and fit in your team this can be an extra burden to playing at your peak because either your eyes have to be in three to four places at once most of the time, or you have to sort out the important voice chatter to you from the junk and keep focused on your role, I think it is somewhat of a gross simplification to just take the strategic design view when talking about in flight dynamic things like a live action raid. On virtual paper it sure sounds like there is no pressure, no distractions, no hiccups (love mem-wipes, no really I do) but we've not even mentioned more fundamental things like lag spikes, client crashes/lds/script or zone bugs or script demands that basically stop you from doing your role because you can not run around and cast a cure/heal at the same time, sometimes you do get awful for luck; thank you enjoy your raid wipe, insert coin, try again. After blowing out say any two of the TSO 4x raid zones in under three hours I often found myself saying to myself why am I so tired/exhausted (to the point of not wanting to run a TSO heroic zone to unwind, just happier to log straight after raid and do something else other than EQ2, if you run raids over twenty hours a week you might know what I mean, it adds up some how it is a strange kind of fatigue), the step up was just lots more stuff to watch/react, with RoK raids you could be pretty sloppy and goof off in raids, in the TSO ones, unless you are very over geared for the content you can not slack and goof off mid raid, people are far too serious about failure and it has crimped the fun factor, I too appreciate the fact healers really have to be on the ball now and earn their stripes but at the same time I miss the near disaster i.e 3 groups down but some how got them all back up and recovered type of scenario, now its just *bzzzzt* FAIL. It is hard to convey in words but the game lost something in that sense. I guess skill should allow for recovery, that reward is gone, it's either going to be perfect pretty much or fail, if the opportunity to struggle back is not there I think it just makes for a more stale experience overall, making the game absolute in that sense has in a way trivialized the experience for no real gain in risk/excitement, it certainly does not feel epic, it does feel mechanical though. If they wanted to level the playing field between all the priests on the curing side they should have merged the single and group cure into a cure all in grp and/or raid friend and left the curse cure for the more coordinated aspect of the game, pots or no pots, aoe blockers or no aoe blockers, for the stuff it still works on at any rate. Maybe that is dumb-ing down, but a clicky cure all already is in game and it makes a certain part of the content stupid easy, so it is already here, maybe it will happen for the cap rise, unless they are going to tone down the sort of raid wide spam of dets next expac, there needs to be a better trade off at any rate. For lore reasons why all priests do not have a cure all in group already is beyond me, since priests can already cure all types singly anyhow, seems to be a somewhat trivial and arbitrary restriction to not have it group wide, guess it will be less of a big deal to do once mythicals are largely trivialized. That said those particular raids are in a sense poorly designed for it, it may cater to some people switching healer toons for particular name fights and or sitting people out and rotating them in, but in a sense that's artificially inflating the gear grind and the team size to slow down progression, on the healer side of it, overall that gets my no fun vote reminds me too much of American football teams, ya know just want to play the game not faff about with substitutions/special plays every other name fight till you have the gear to make it mostly irrelevant, that's also another annoyance the whole carrying a crate of raid gear to switch out pieces every other fight too, with the expac announcements I suspect that part of the game is only going to increase, but hopefully it will be on per zone basis this time round and not a per every two or three names sort of thing. As to the OP's question. Like life the game is what you make of it. I won't repeat too much more of what has already been said, other than to say TSO 4x raids start to generally suck for healers about the third to fourth pattern dropping name into every zone, just depends on your raid setup/gear progression as a raid force whole and of course where your personal threshold for RSI/chore levels of curing lie or dealing with scripts that make you right click stuff and pick something off a menu or other silly details that involve non normal activities due to incurable dets that require you do silly stuff like run around jump in a pool to get the det off and get back in position else you blow up the raid etc. I often have Clockwork Orange scenes playing in my minds eye when raid scripts start stacking on the silly stuff like that, no its not hard, just annoying and repetitious the randomness as it is done now offers no challenge just needless stress at best, fun not particularly, especially not the tenth plus time through, just a chore/bore that needs to be dealt with accordingly via some pre-agreed plan of action. If you want to have some easy raid content that is largely stress free pretty much all of RoK raids apart from maybe Trak and Byzola or Maestro, though you can luck out on Byzola and get an easy pull sometimes, though it probably is pointless me saying that as hardly anyone does that content for farming gear that much these days, some items are still pretty nice, but most are junk, will almost be certainly the case and sentiment once the cap goes up gear degradation or not as the case may be. Anyhow, try and get your fun in before you quit. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Tehom

11-19-2009, 01:31 PM

<cite>Avirodar@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>ZZZzzzZZZzzzZZZzzzMost of your list is garbage where plenty of time (over 7 seconds) to cure is provided, via group cure, single cure, or potion cure. Even better is most of what you listed can be negated entirely by cure potions if the group is stuck with a solo healer that is lacking an ideal group cure.Tythus does not one shot on overlap. Elemental potions work great.Tyrannus focus damage can be avoided by a single potion cure (within 7s) every 30 seconds.Munzok focus damage can be avoided by a single potion cure (within 9s) every 35 seconds. Takla and Nax only hit a small handful of people. Easy to take care of with a couple of single cures.Vin/Marn give around 10 seconds to cure the curse... This is ample time for a zone boss encounter.Penta/Ulta, a nox pot cure at approx 45 second intervals... Hardly stressful.Mynzak focus damage can be avoided by a single elemental potion cure (within 10s) about every 40 seconds</blockquote>You didn't ask for a list of things that were hard for me, buddy. You said that detrimentals that you couldn't heal through (and unless Tythus was changed, he does have a focus-effect overlap on his elemental and arcane - it's been a few months since I've seen anyone not cure it, so maybe it was changed, I don't know) were a minority, and they're not. I didn't give any value judgement on whether they were difficult to cure or not - you're just defensive because you're an inquisitor, and it's literally over 10 times faster for you to cure a group than for half the priest classes using single cures, and faster still on fights with interrupt effects or other disruption since your mythical click is uninterruptable. I don't think this is a problem on the fights where people die from being uncured, due to pots. Where I -do- think it's a problem is multiple effects that determine dps based on curing speed, which is what makes your mythical ludicrously overpowered.

urgthock

11-19-2009, 01:34 PM

<cite>Avirodar@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>urgthock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Avirodar@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>What, are you trying to say that healers are getting "burned out", because they actually have to do something that requires concentration on about five raid encounters? The situation for healers is not nearly as bad as some are trying to make out. The proof of this is the lack of actual examples of how this expansion is overkill on cure demands.</blockquote>LOLZ... you're an inquisitor. 'Nuff said.</blockquote>As expected, you have added nothing to support how this expansion is "hard" on healers.It seems that beyond a mere handful of higher end raid encounters (which should rightflully provide a challenge for solo healers), no one can give any resounding evidence as to how this expansion is too difficult on healers for curing purposes.Some people have attempted to imply that the second tick on most DoT effects is lethal. The truth is, most DoTs can be healed through for a few ticks without issues. The DoT's where the second tick is lethal for most of a group, are a severe minority.The facts speak for themselves. People are not listing vast numbers of heroic+raid encounters that have unreasonable cure requirements (when a priests group cure + single cures + potion usage is not enough). The reason is because they can not.Jump up and down, point out I am an Inquisitor all you want. But if you're crying about how curing is so hard in TSO that it drives healers away, when you struggle to list more than 6 TSO mobs that test a healers curing, expect me to laugh at the people who complain that it is too much to handle. Sometimes I wonder how these people survived back when there was 4 cures (cure trauma, cure noxious, cure elemental, cure arcane).</blockquote><cite>urgthock wrote:</cite><blockquote>LOLZ... you're an inquisitor. 'Nuff said.</blockquote>