Crane Twirl Proc Rate Broken (With Proof!)

[Ambrin]

<p>First off, I have /bug'd this, but I am posting here with more detail. Second, I apologize for the width of the screenshots. I run a dual monitor setup and this is the easiest way to show my data</p><p>Recently I have been looking into some new AA/gear setups by testing DPS on training dummies and one of the things I have noticed is that the brawler wisdom line AA "Crane Twirl" is not proccing anywhere near the stated amount of 16% on a successful melee attack (Exact wording is "On a successful melee attack this spell has a 16% chance to cast Crane Twirl on target of attack."). What I have found through testing on training dummies is that it doesn't even proc on 16% of successful mainhand attacks.</p><p>* In all fights I was self buffed, using the same gear (for each case), with no outside help. I have no gear that affects proc rates. All fights were against a single training dummy.</p><p>Case 1: No gear equipped and self buffed only.</p><p><img src="http://www.gamerdna.com/uimage/QFFgaW9/full/broken_crane_twril-jpg.jpg" /></p><p>As can be seen be seen by looking at the number of auto attacks compared to the number of Crane Twirl procs you end up with a proc rate of:</p><p>(94/761)*100 = 12.35%.</p><p>Even if you assume it can't proc off a double attack (even though it is a melee attack) you still end up with</p><p>(94/(761/1.22))*100 = 15.07%.</p><p>Case 2: Fully geared, self buffed, testing proc rates under normal circumstances.</p><p>* This set of data includes parses of auto attack + CA's.</p><p>* I do have procs that increase my DPS / DA / crit stats.<img src="http://www.gamerdna.com/uimage/izYgbdZ/full/broken_crane_twril_2-jpg.jpg" /></p><p>In this case Crane Twirl procced on only:</p><p>(98/1250)*100 = 7.84% of melee auto attacks ONLY.</p><p>Conclusion:</p><p>Either I am wrong in thinking that a "successful melee attack" means an attack that hits my target for melee damage (ie auto attacks and most of my combat arts), or the proc rate on Crane Twirl is far bellow the advertised value. The only way the advertised rate is even closely correct is if "successful melee attack" actually means "a mainhand auto attack that does not double attack", in which case the description of the ability needs to change in order to reflect that.</p>

[Yimway]

<p>I would be interestested in hearing a dev response on why this isn't broken, and how its working as intended. </p><p>Mainly as I'd like to better understand how on successful melee attack is normalized.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p>As I understand it our procs are adjusted to the delay of our weapons so because you are a brawler and probably using a lower delay your procs per swing won't be as high as stated, the good thing tho is you will swing more.</p><p>EDIT AGAIN:  too hard to explain lol</p>

[Aull]

<p>Well if the posted proc ratings are remotely the same for all brawlers then it is no wonder why this wis line ability has lost flavor. If anything this should be a flat 16% as currently described without any smoke and mirrors. If the 2.5 rating on weapons makes this ability go below the true description of the aa ability then to me that description is a lie and is misleading us all.</p><p>If this is all true then it stands to reason why brawlers get such a bad rap when abilities cannot hold up and work as intended.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Aull wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well if the posted proc ratings are remotely the same for all brawlers then it is no wonder why this wis line ability has lost flavor. If anything this should be a flat 16% as currently described without any smoke and mirrors. If the 2.5 rating on weapons makes this ability go below the true description of the aa ability then to me that description is a lie and is misleading us all.</p><p>If this is all true then it stands to reason why brawlers get such a bad rap when abilities cannot hold up and work as intended.</p></blockquote><p>Doesnt matter the proc rate should be double anyways even if it was 16% all the time that still wouldnt be enough.</p>

[Aule]

<p>A successful melee attack = autoattack only Any successful melee attack = autoattack + ca's Any proc rate that is listed as a percentage is normalized to 3.0s, whether it's a on spell or melee attack buff. Proc's generally don't trigger from the offhand weapon anymore, unless the proc is on the offhand weapon itself. Watch blade chime as an example, it doesn't trigger on the off hand and it doesn't trigger on the prime hand's double attack. I'm not sure how the increased delay from dual wielding affects melee proc rates. Looking at your numbers there, and estimating based on your double attack rate and haste, it looks pretty accurate to me.</p><p>[edit to make it readable]</p>

[steelbadger]

<p><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>A successful melee attack = autoattack only Any successful melee attack = autoattack + ca's</p></blockquote><p>Looking through logs at our guild's monk Crane Twirl procs off both auto-attacks and CAs</p><p><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Any proc rate that is listed as a percentage is normalized to 3.0s, whether it's a on spell or melee attack buff.</p></blockquote><p>This is false, it was changed a long time ago; all normalized percentages are not displayed as procs per minute, any remaining percentage change abilities should be true percentage chance.</p><p><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Proc's generally don't trigger from the offhand weapon anymore, unless the proc is on the offhand weapon itself. Watch blade chime as an example, it doesn't trigger on the off hand and it doesn't trigger on the prime hand's double attack.</p></blockquote><p>Correct, and this gives some indication as to why the proc rate is so low in the second example.</p><p>OP am I right in assuming that you have (or are close to) 100% double attack?  You'll need to give us an idea of how many of those "crush" attacks are double attacks/off-hand attacks.  Additonally I have, after looing through the my parses, a sneaking suspicion that Crane Twirl misses are not attributed to Crane Twirl and are instead generic "You try to crush xyz but fail" messages and reduce the apparent proc rate of the ability (Most procs are resistable/avoidable but the parsing for those messages is very inconsistent).</p><p>I'm going to make some assumptions (some confirmed by you in the OP) about your two tests:</p><p>Test 1)  Done with no gear, only 1 weapon and self buffs; probably somewhere in the region of 50-60% haste (Unfortunately I dunno how much haste monks natively self buff so I have to guess from the picture you provided).  You certainly aren't dual-wielding if you are self buffed.  This is why it looks almost right, the only issue is as a result of misses being attributed to your auto-attack.  You have removed the variables that can make proc rates look lower.</p><p>Test 2)  Done with gear, dual-wielding, probably near or capping haste, DA and crit.  A lot going on that really muddies the water and makes it impossible to determine actual proc rate as we don't really know how many times your main-hand weapon auto-attacked the dummy.</p><p>If that is the case then it really is not a fair test by any stretch of the imagination.  You need to understand how procs work; only off main-hand and cannot be procced by procs like DA.  This means that the numbers you've posted seem approximately right for a 16% proc rate buff though obviously we can't be more specific on actual proc rates because there are far too many incontrolled variables in your tests.  Having a really high Double attack rate, or an off-hand weapon with the same damage type as the mainhand (using different damage types allows for differentiation between attacks) gives the apparent effect of reducing proc rate by inflating the number of apparent "proccable" hits.</p>

[Aule]

<p><cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="font-style: italic; font-weight: bold;">Aule@Guk wrote:</span></p><blockquote><p>Any proc rate that is listed as a percentage is normalized to 3.0s, whether it's a on spell or melee attack buff.</p></blockquote><p>This is false, it was changed a long time ago; all normalized percentages are not displayed as procs per minute,any remaining percentage change abilities should be true percentage chance.</p><p>OP am I right in assuming that you have (or are close to) 100% double attack?</p></blockquote><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=441899&post_id=4928316">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...post_id=4928316</a></p><div><p><cite>Aeralik wrote: (01/28/2009)</cite></p><blockquote><p>The base proc percent is 25%.  When you spend 5 points the 25 goes to 30% chance normalized over 3 seconddelay.  So in reality you are getting a 20% upgrade to the base percentage.  The 0.9 isnt a percentage upgradeits how many additional procs per minute it added which the 5% additional corresponds to roughly 0.9 whenrounded.</p><div></div></blockquote></div><p><span style="font-size: small;"><p>I didn't find anything in the game update notes from this year that stated any game mechanic change todispute the accuracy of this statement from Aeralik at the beginning of the year.  Unfortunately, "should be" and "are" don't necessarily match up.  I certainly don't get 54% of my coercer's spellcasts proc'ing synergismthe way that the buff says that it will.  In actuality it proc's in the 32-35% range.</p><p>Also, the screenshots from the OP clearly indicate his haste, melee crit and double attack rates.</p></span></p>

[Kimber]

<p>OK unless I cannot read ( which is unlikely since I read these boards often ) or maybe you typed it wrong but if it reads in the description as you stated.</p><p>On a successful melee attack this spell has a 16% chance to cast Crane Twirl on target of attack</p><p>That would mean that once you hit the target you have a 16% chance for it to proc not that if you hit the taget 100 times it will go of 16 of them.  It means just what it says if you hit the target you have a 16% chance for it to Proc.  So if the RGN is in your favor that night it will Proc allot if not you might not even Proc once.  Its kinda like rares some time you get lucky some time you get 4 stacks of 200 and have jack [Removed for Content] to show for it.</p>

[Davngr1]

<p>lol.. you have sperm on you desktop? </p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>lol.. you have sperm on you desktop? </p></blockquote><p>LOL I totally missed his background, nice catch!</p>

[Ambrin]

<p>They are neurons, you just can't see them properly because the windows hide everything.</p><p>Anyways... Back to the topic at hand, looking at the numbers it does seem like the proc rate is correct and it is merely the wording that is misleading. That does lead to other issues though, like how this skill is in desperate need of boosting considering it does around ~500 damage on an average hit and is only going to proc ~4 times a minute on average. I know that this has been covered in other threads and we aren't likely to see any changes to this ability until the expansion at the soonest, but it really does need some looking over in my opinion.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Ambrin@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They are neurons, you just can't see them properly because the windows hide everything.</p><p>Anyways... Back to the topic at hand, looking at the numbers it does seem like the proc rate is correct and it is merely the wording that is misleading. That does lead to other issues though, like how this skill is in desperate need of boosting considering it does around ~500 damage on an average hit and is only going to proc ~4 times a minute on average. I know that this has been covered in other threads and we aren't likely to see any changes to this ability until the expansion at the soonest, but it really does need some looking over in my opinion.</p></blockquote><p>Get some base dmg and crit bonus it starts to do alot more then 500 dmg a hit.</p>

[Aule]

<p>You need to get base spell damage for it though, at least until February. T3 elemental infused shouldersare probably ideal. It also crits based on spell crit rate, good luck getting that to 100. I still think it's completely lame that they refuse to fix anything until expansion time. Absolutely nothing abrawler does should be affected by spell crit or base spell damage.</p>

[Quicksilver74]

<p><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> Absolutely nothing a brawler does should be affected by spell crit or base spell damage.</p></blockquote><p>QFE.</p><p>  I have a feeling that the whole WIS line and STA line both are going to get a huge overhaul, and the procs from each line may end up becoming something very different than we know now.   At this point, any change is likely to become a "welcome" change. because these 2 lines are so bad right now...  but you see.... if they fix them now, then the revamp that is planned for the next expansion might not be quite so welcome.   </p><p>   If they adjusted our Brawler AA procs to account for the damage they SHOULD be dealing in today's environment, we'd likely all be respeccing and picking those procs.   Then, if they have an overhaul of these lines planned, we will cry and complain when they take our procs away.   </p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Crabbok@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> Absolutely nothing a brawler does should be affected by spell crit or base spell damage.</p></blockquote><p>QFE.</p><p>  I have a feeling that the whole WIS line and STA line both are going to get a huge overhaul, and the procs from each line may end up becoming something very different than we know now.   At this point, any change is likely to become a "welcome" change. because these 2 lines are so bad right now...  but you see.... if they fix them now, then the revamp that is planned for the next expansion might not be quite so welcome.   </p><p>   If they adjusted our Brawler AA procs to account for the damage they SHOULD be dealing in today's environment, we'd likely all be respeccing and picking those procs.   Then, if they have an overhaul of these lines planned, we will cry and complain when they take our procs away.   </p></blockquote><p>Thats the thing I would so prefer they make cranetwirl work rather then just scrapping it for an ae auto attack like what was planned in the fighter changes, however like you said anything at this point will likely be embraced, I just kind of liked the uniqueness of having an ae proc not an ae auto attack.</p>

[Aule]

Still wouldn't take longer than what? 10 minutes to change everything to melee crit and melee base damage? Flag it with a disclaimer that things are subject to change for the expansion, or whatever.