Helm of Fire Fight...

[Bruener]

<p>There is a post on items forums that seems to get ignored about this item so I wanted to bring it up here.  This thing is really a piece of crap and needs to be changed.  I guess I wanted this thread to get peoples opinions on the helm and really how bad it is and some ideas on what would be nice to change it to.  Than I would suggest /bug it to get some of the things changed about it.</p><p>Why it is so bad.  As a comparison on an 8 min Munzok parsed I was checking the other night it did a whopping 22 DPS for me.  So why is it doing so little?</p><p>   - First of all the fact that when the debuff is on the mob it has to be on the mob the raid is really DPS'ing otherwise it won't proc any damage.</p><p>    - The debuff on the mob does not stack with others that are wearing the helm in raid.  Meaning that unlike the other helms the more people that pick this helm up in a raid it just drops the usefulness per person and doesn't really increase raid DPS at all.</p><p>    - Even when only a couple people are wearing this helm and the debuff is up on the mob the % chance it will take damage is either too low or the amount of damage the proc does is too low.  Compared to the focus burn that the other classes get it just is lacking quite a bit.  Pre-proc change yeah this and Byzola were great.  Since than, it is junk.</p><p>Suggestions for change:</p><p>    - Increase the % chance when the debuff is on so that the proc goes off more often.</p><p>    - Increase the damage of the proc</p><p>    - MAKE IT STACK</p><p>    - Change it to a unique tank proc....I would love to see the proc from Ring of Repulsion, a regenerating ward, added instead.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p>Sorry that helm is one of the most OP items in the game, you using a mob like Munzok where the majority of the raid is dpsing the constant adds that come in instead of your target plus u add in the fact in those 8 minutes you were probably charmed alot doesn't justify changing this hugely overpowered item.  But hey, Ill trade my brawler clicky for your proc anyday.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sorry that helm is one of the most OP items in the game, you using a mob like Munzok where the majority of the raid is dpsing the constant adds that come in instead of your target plus u add in the fact in those 8 minutes you were probably charmed alot doesn't justify changing this hugely overpowered item.  But hey, Ill trade my brawler clicky for your proc anyday.</p></blockquote><p>Considering the Brawler clicky can be used at your choosing and does just as much DPS, and stacks in raids...OK!</p><p>Even on regular fights the helm does less than 200 DPS.  My Mynzak wrist does as much DPS.</p><p>Please show parses where this item is OP'd.  Post proc-nerf of course.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sorry that helm is one of the most OP items in the game, you using a mob like Munzok where the majority of the raid is dpsing the constant adds that come in instead of your target plus u add in the fact in those 8 minutes you were probably charmed alot doesn't justify changing this hugely overpowered item.  But hey, Ill trade my brawler clicky for your proc anyday.</p></blockquote><p>Considering the Brawler clicky can be used at your choosing and does just as much DPS, and stacks in raids...OK!</p><p>Even on regular fights the helm does less than 200 DPS.  My Mynzak wrist does as much DPS.</p><p>Please show parses where this item is OP'd.  Post proc-nerf of course.</p></blockquote><p>Actually if you took the time to compare the two the clicky does about one fifth the dps the helm does and it only works once every 5 minutes while yours is always going thats not even taking into account that you can get the same dmg from the clicky from an item in Mistmoore Mansion.  But I mean lets be serious here on my munzok fights my helm does 0 dps I can't even wear it, so who's helm is better?</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sorry that helm is one of the most OP items in the game, you using a mob like Munzok where the majority of the raid is dpsing the constant adds that come in instead of your target plus u add in the fact in those 8 minutes you were probably charmed alot doesn't justify changing this hugely overpowered item.  But hey, Ill trade my brawler clicky for your proc anyday.</p></blockquote><p>Considering the Brawler clicky can be used at your choosing and does just as much DPS, and stacks in raids...OK!</p><p>Even on regular fights the helm does less than 200 DPS.  My Mynzak wrist does as much DPS.</p><p>Please show parses where this item is OP'd.  Post proc-nerf of course.</p></blockquote><p>Actually if you took the time to compare the two the clicky does about one fifth the dps the helm does and it only works once every 5 minutes while yours is always going thats not even taking into account that you can get the same dmg from the clicky from an item in Mistmoore Mansion.  But I mean lets be serious here on my munzok fights my helm does 0 dps I can't even wear it, so who's helm is better?</p></blockquote><p>Actually I do take the time to compare the 2.  More accurately I compare what the scout DPS increase from their proc is compared to the Plate one.  The Scout helm definitely is putting out more DPS, and that is before more people actually start wearing the helm.</p><p>Where does your helm proc parse on your parses?  Bludgeon from the Plate helm parses below the Mynzak proc on mine.  Most of the time it is significantly less than that.  On real easy ST named it might do as much DPS as it.</p><p>So where does yours end up?  Not to mention that it is when u determine.  Its the age DoT should do more damage than DD.  And yet once again it is flopped.</p><p>But of course I am sure that you have it in your mind it is OP'd based on the damage it did before the proc changes.  Back when procs could crit and procs were effected by spell mod and base spell damage.  Yeah it was back than.  It could do like 1k dps by itself.  And just like everything else that was real nice before the proc changes it was nerfed into uselessness.</p><p>Personally, my argument is that the proc is junk...and a lot of people won't even wear it because it has no particular gain at all.  The proc should be something much more in-line with the healer proc.  Something that is great for tanking, just like the Ring of Repulsion.</p><p>And why would you not be able to wear your helm on Munzok?</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sorry that helm is one of the most OP items in the game, you using a mob like Munzok where the majority of the raid is dpsing the constant adds that come in instead of your target plus u add in the fact in those 8 minutes you were probably charmed alot doesn't justify changing this hugely overpowered item.  But hey, Ill trade my brawler clicky for your proc anyday.</p></blockquote><p>Considering the Brawler clicky can be used at your choosing and does just as much DPS, and stacks in raids...OK!</p><p>Even on regular fights the helm does less than 200 DPS.  My Mynzak wrist does as much DPS.</p><p>Please show parses where this item is OP'd.  Post proc-nerf of course.</p></blockquote><p>Actually if you took the time to compare the two the clicky does about one fifth the dps the helm does and it only works once every 5 minutes while yours is always going thats not even taking into account that you can get the same dmg from the clicky from an item in Mistmoore Mansion.  But I mean lets be serious here on my munzok fights my helm does 0 dps I can't even wear it, so who's helm is better?</p></blockquote><p>Actually I do take the time to compare the 2.  More accurately I compare what the scout DPS increase from their proc is compared to the Plate one.  The Scout helm definitely is putting out more DPS, and that is before more people actually start wearing the helm.</p><p>Where does your helm proc parse on your parses?  Bludgeon from the Plate helm parses below the Mynzak proc on mine.  Most of the time it is significantly less than that.  On real easy ST named it might do as much DPS as it.</p><p>So where does yours end up?  Not to mention that it is when u determine.  Its the age DoT should do more damage than DD.  And yet once again it is flopped.</p><p>But of course I am sure that you have it in your mind it is OP'd based on the damage it did before the proc changes.  Back when procs could crit and procs were effected by spell mod and base spell damage.  Yeah it was back than.  It could do like 1k dps by itself.  And just like everything else that was real nice before the proc changes it was nerfed into uselessness.</p><p>Personally, my argument is that the proc is junk...and a lot of people won't even wear it because it has no particular gain at all.  The proc should be something much more in-line with the healer proc.  Something that is great for tanking, just like the Ring of Repulsion.</p><p>And why would you not be able to wear your helm on Munzok?</p></blockquote><p>It is simple math actually, as a dpsing brawler we can do 1 CA every 1.5 seconds, so lets say everythings perfect and over the course of one minute the helm goes off 40 times, so that 40*1155 dmg right only its only running 1/5 of the time so its really 46200*0.2 so 9260 dmg per minute or 154 damage per second.  Please show me an example of a single target fight that takes some time where your helm does less and don't use a fight where people aren't hitting the mob for w/e reason or that you are charmed half the time.  I have personally seen it around 200-500 from our guard when he actually wears the thing so w/e man.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sorry that helm is one of the most OP items in the game, you using a mob like Munzok where the majority of the raid is dpsing the constant adds that come in instead of your target plus u add in the fact in those 8 minutes you were probably charmed alot doesn't justify changing this hugely overpowered item.  But hey, Ill trade my brawler clicky for your proc anyday.</p></blockquote><p>Considering the Brawler clicky can be used at your choosing and does just as much DPS, and stacks in raids...OK!</p><p>Even on regular fights the helm does less than 200 DPS.  My Mynzak wrist does as much DPS.</p><p>Please show parses where this item is OP'd.  Post proc-nerf of course.</p></blockquote><p>Actually if you took the time to compare the two the clicky does about one fifth the dps the helm does and it only works once every 5 minutes while yours is always going thats not even taking into account that you can get the same dmg from the clicky from an item in Mistmoore Mansion.  But I mean lets be serious here on my munzok fights my helm does 0 dps I can't even wear it, so who's helm is better?</p></blockquote><p>Actually I do take the time to compare the 2.  More accurately I compare what the scout DPS increase from their proc is compared to the Plate one.  The Scout helm definitely is putting out more DPS, and that is before more people actually start wearing the helm.</p><p>Where does your helm proc parse on your parses?  Bludgeon from the Plate helm parses below the Mynzak proc on mine.  Most of the time it is significantly less than that.  On real easy ST named it might do as much DPS as it.</p><p>So where does yours end up?  Not to mention that it is when u determine.  Its the age DoT should do more damage than DD.  And yet once again it is flopped.</p><p>But of course I am sure that you have it in your mind it is OP'd based on the damage it did before the proc changes.  Back when procs could crit and procs were effected by spell mod and base spell damage.  Yeah it was back than.  It could do like 1k dps by itself.  And just like everything else that was real nice before the proc changes it was nerfed into uselessness.</p><p>Personally, my argument is that the proc is junk...and a lot of people won't even wear it because it has no particular gain at all.  The proc should be something much more in-line with the healer proc.  Something that is great for tanking, just like the Ring of Repulsion.</p><p>And why would you not be able to wear your helm on Munzok?</p></blockquote><p>It is simple math actually, as a dpsing brawler we can do 1 CA every 1.5 seconds, so lets say everythings perfect and over the course of one minute the helm goes off 40 times, so that 40*1155 dmg right only its only running 1/5 of the time so its really 46200*0.2 so 9260 dmg per minute or 154 damage per second.  Please show me an example of a single target fight that takes some time where your helm does less and don't use a fight where people aren't hitting the mob for w/e reason or that you are charmed half the time.  I have personally seen it around 200-500 from our guard when he actually wears the thing so w/e man.</p></blockquote><p>Not sure where you pull your 1 CA every 1.5 sec from.  Was just checking out some parses posted on the other site....specifically from scouts that have the same exact clicky.  Named parses particularly through Ykesha that Rampage was doing 400-500 DPS.  See all your little math doesn't really mean anything because the clicky is there for any type of major burn parse.  You seem to forget the proc is focused and instead of wasting it on trash it is used specifically for parses that actually matter...hence named.  Furthermore, there is not a single parse I can find that the Bludgeon is doing more on the other site...and I know from personal experience that besides a few lucky trash mobs where the proc debuff goes up early and multiple times it is hard to push it to 200 DPS...and that is with a single person wearing it.</p><p>So if it is so great why isn't your Guard wearing it?  Why are a lot of people opting out of wearing it?  Not a big deal, I will just pull some more parses from tomorrow night and see once again that the effect on this item is lacking when it is supposed to be the best in its slot.  Sad that a previous xpac helm in RoK was doing way more.</p><p>Since you like math here is some for you.</p><p>Rampage proc does 1247 damage, you can cast at least 1 CA every second.  Oh wow, that equals 1247 DPS.  Even considering if named actually took 3 min....that means the proc would do 415 DPS.  Pull a few trash get to next named, rinse and repeat.</p><p>Bludgeon, procs 2.1 times per minute, lasts 10 seconds, means 20 sec every min.  5% of the time the mob takes damage it will do 493 damage.  ASSUMING you are lucky and 18 people actually damage the mob every sec that works out to 360 time the mob is damaged...5% of 360 is 18.  493*18 = 8874...divided by 60 = 147.  What do you know, what it actually might proc on a descent night.</p><p>415 v 147.....its about what the parses show.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Not sure where you pull your 1 CA every 1.5 sec from.  Was just checking out some parses posted on the other site....specifically from scouts that have the same exact clicky.  Named parses particularly through Ykesha that Rampage was doing 400-500 DPS.  See all your little math doesn't really mean anything because the clicky is there for any type of major burn parse.  You seem to forget the proc is focused and instead of wasting it on trash it is used specifically for parses that actually matter...hence named.  Furthermore, there is not a single parse I can find that the Bludgeon is doing more on the other site...and I know from personal experience that besides a few lucky trash mobs where the proc debuff goes up early and multiple times it is hard to push it to 200 DPS...and that is with a single person wearing it.</p><p>So if it is so great why isn't your Guard wearing it?  Why are a lot of people opting out of wearing it?  Not a big deal, I will just pull some more parses from tomorrow night and see once again that the effect on this item is lacking when it is supposed to be the best in its slot.  Sad that a previous xpac helm in RoK was doing way more.</p></blockquote><p>I am not going to explain brawler mechanics to you just take it as 1 ca every 1.5 secs and move on.  On top of that are you seriously I mean seriously trying to compare the two on an ae fight?  I mean if you really want to get technical get an sk or zerk with all those aes and see what the helm does on Ykesha.  Also you completely ignore the fact you have access to the exact same clicky scouts and brawler have from farming mistmore mansion while there is NOTHING I can get that will give me your helm proc so please keep on QQing.</p>

[Bruener]

<p>read math above.</p><p>EDIT: Just an FYI it does less DPS on AE fights.  Less people hitting the mobs it might actually proc on.  And how the heck can you even bring up the item from Mistmyr Manor.  It is a 15 sec clicky that does 1110 damage per CA (not even spell) and recast is 5 min.  Yeah good comparison.  Not to mention that you do have access to an item like the plate helm....Zarrakon wrist...oh wait Zarrakon wrist does more DPS.  Grats.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>read math above.</p><p>EDIT: Just an FYI it does less DPS on AE fights.  Less people hitting the mobs it might actually proc on.  And how the heck can you even bring up the item from Mistmyr Manor.  It is a 15 sec clicky that does 1110 damage per CA (not even spell) and recast is 5 min.  Yeah good comparison.  Not to mention that you do have access to an item like the plate helm....Zarrakon wrist...oh wait Zarrakon wrist does more DPS.  Grats.</p></blockquote><p>If zarrakon wrist is an example of what the helm does then the helm is super OP and should be nerfed.  Next?</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>read math above.</p><p>EDIT: Just an FYI it does less DPS on AE fights.  Less people hitting the mobs it might actually proc on.  And how the heck can you even bring up the item from Mistmyr Manor.  It is a 15 sec clicky that does 1110 damage per CA (not even spell) and recast is 5 min.  Yeah good comparison.  Not to mention that you do have access to an item like the plate helm....Zarrakon wrist...oh wait Zarrakon wrist does more DPS.  Grats.</p></blockquote><p>If zarrakon wrist is an example of what the helm does then the helm is super OP and should be nerfed.  Next?</p></blockquote><p>Did your parents just bless you with ignorance from the get go?  I love how you ignore everything in the posts and throw out some stupid comment like this.  You obviously have no idea on how a lot of the mechanics works for items and because you heard that something was OP'd before you just stick to your guns with no type of legitimate argument to back it up.</p><p>You throw out a bunch of BS and expect it to stick.  Just like trying to compare the Mistmyr item to the brawler/scout helm.  When there is a huge gap between the 2.  You wanted to know an item that was like the Plate helm and I gave you one.  It is the similar concept with feedback DPS.  However the Zarrakon wrist does a lot more DPS...well because the proc is way bigger.  The Zarrakon wrist has the buff go up for 50% longer and procs damage twice as much that does 3x as much damage.  What the Zarrakon proc is is what the Plate helm should be.</p><p>Or, DING DING.  Wouldn't it make sense to make it more of a tank item.  Adding a regenerating ward proc on it would be much more in-line and would be great for tanks.  There wouldn't be a stacking issue and it would actually be useful.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Did your parents just bless you with ignorance from the get go?  I love how you ignore everything in the posts and throw out some stupid comment like this.  You obviously have no idea on how a lot of the mechanics works for items and because you heard that something was OP'd before you just stick to your guns with no type of legitimate argument to back it up.</p><p>You throw out a bunch of BS and expect it to stick.  Just like trying to compare the Mistmyr item to the brawler/scout helm.  When there is a huge gap between the 2.  You wanted to know an item that was like the Plate helm and I gave you one.  It is the similar concept with feedback DPS.  However the Zarrakon wrist does a lot more DPS...well because the proc is way bigger.  The Zarrakon wrist has the buff go up for 50% longer and procs damage twice as much that does 3x as much damage.  What the Zarrakon proc is is what the Plate helm should be.</p><p>Or, DING DING.  Wouldn't it make sense to make it more of a tank item.  Adding a regenerating ward proc on it would be much more in-line and would be great for tanks.  There wouldn't be a stacking issue and it would actually be useful.</p></blockquote><p>I love how the people who are first to call names on these forums are usually the ones who are wrong the most.  If you had the zarrakon wrist which you don't (but I do) you would know that the damage proc on it is just like any other normal damage proc.  The debuff you put on the mob with it procs heals not DPS (OMG).  I mean seriously are you really calling someone ignorant and in the same post proving how completely out of touch with things that you are?  Now for comparison sake the mistmoore wrist, the SoH hat and the Gozak brawler/scout helm do EXACTLY the same thing, they give a disease dmg proc and heal to every CA for the duration of their proc the only difference is that the duration on them is shorter, however you can't shorten the reuse on the gozak helm while you can shorten the others, hell they dont even stack because they are the SAME thing.  Get a clue they are the EXACT same item. </p><p>So I would suggest you look at your own claim about me not knowing anything about mechanics put that on yourself and maybe do a little actual research before opening your mouth next time ok?  Also don't call names its not nice, and don't claim like you are some great mechanics wizard and then just completely drop the ball, it will just ruin what credibility you have left. </p><p>Now I know you are going to try and come back with something about the plate helm and zarrakon wrist both putting a debuff on the mob so thats how they are similar but at best its a reach one heals one does dps that is not the same thing.  Last but not least is they stack unlike the clicky proc so I guess devs agree with me too right?</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Did your parents just bless you with ignorance from the get go?  I love how you ignore everything in the posts and throw out some stupid comment like this.  You obviously have no idea on how a lot of the mechanics works for items and because you heard that something was OP'd before you just stick to your guns with no type of legitimate argument to back it up.</p><p>You throw out a bunch of BS and expect it to stick.  Just like trying to compare the Mistmyr item to the brawler/scout helm.  When there is a huge gap between the 2.  You wanted to know an item that was like the Plate helm and I gave you one.  It is the similar concept with feedback DPS.  However the Zarrakon wrist does a lot more DPS...well because the proc is way bigger.  The Zarrakon wrist has the buff go up for 50% longer and procs damage twice as much that does 3x as much damage.  What the Zarrakon proc is is what the Plate helm should be.</p><p>Or, DING DING.  Wouldn't it make sense to make it more of a tank item.  Adding a regenerating ward proc on it would be much more in-line and would be great for tanks.  There wouldn't be a stacking issue and it would actually be useful.</p></blockquote><p>I love how the people who are first to call names on these forums are usually the ones who are wrong the most.  If you had the zarrakon wrist which you don't (but I do) you would know that the damage proc on it is just like any other normal damage proc.  The debuff you put on the mob with it procs heals not DPS (OMG).  I mean seriously are you really calling someone ignorant and in the same post proving how completely out of touch with things that you are?  Now for comparison sake the mistmoore wrist, the SoH hat and the Gozak brawler/scout helm do EXACTLY the same thing, they give a disease dmg proc and heal to every CA for the duration of their proc the only difference is that the duration on them is shorter, however you can't shorten the reuse on the gozak helm while you can shorten the others, hell they dont even stack because they are the SAME thing.  Get a clue they are the EXACT same item. </p><p>So I would suggest you look at your own claim about me not knowing anything about mechanics put that on yourself and maybe do a little actual research before opening your mouth next time ok?  Also don't call names its not nice, and don't claim like you are some great mechanics wizard and then just completely drop the ball, it will just ruin what credibility you have left. </p><p>Now I know you are going to try and come back with something about the plate helm and zarrakon wrist both putting a debuff on the mob so thats how they are similar but at best its a reach one heals one does dps that is not the same thing.  Last but not least is they stack unlike the clicky proc so I guess devs agree with me too right?</p></blockquote><p>My bad I looked at the proc wrong.  However, the Zarrakon proc does more DPS for people than what the Plate helm does...which can be supported by multiple posted parses.</p><p>The fact of the matter is you have no clue how much DPS this helm does and for some reason you just want to argue for the sake of arguing...just like the majority of your posts.  I mean if you actually had anything credible to say ever you might be worth paying attention to...you polluting a post that you have no idea about though is just annoying.</p><p>Love how you get to compare an item that has a similar buff that lasts 1/4 of the time doing way less damage.</p><p>Must be tough to be a know-it-all that really is lacking.</p>

[Siatfallen]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Did your parents just bless you with ignorance from the get go?  I love how you ignore everything in the posts and throw out some stupid comment like this.  You obviously have no idea on how a lot of the mechanics works for items and because you heard that something was OP'd before you just stick to your guns with no type of legitimate argument to back it up.</p><p>You throw out a bunch of BS and expect it to stick.  Just like trying to compare the Mistmyr item to the brawler/scout helm.  When there is a huge gap between the 2.  You wanted to know an item that was like the Plate helm and I gave you one.  It is the similar concept with feedback DPS.  However the Zarrakon wrist does a lot more DPS...well because the proc is way bigger.  The Zarrakon wrist has the buff go up for 50% longer and procs damage twice as much that does 3x as much damage.  What the Zarrakon proc is is what the Plate helm should be.</p><p>Or, DING DING.  Wouldn't it make sense to make it more of a tank item.  Adding a regenerating ward proc on it would be much more in-line and would be great for tanks.  There wouldn't be a stacking issue and it would actually be useful.</p></blockquote><p>I love how the people who are first to call names on these forums are usually the ones who are wrong the most.  If you had the zarrakon wrist which you don't (but I do) you would know that the damage proc on it is just like any other normal damage proc.  The debuff you put on the mob with it procs heals not DPS (OMG).  I mean seriously are you really calling someone ignorant and in the same post proving how completely out of touch with things that you are?  Now for comparison sake the mistmoore wrist, the SoH hat and the Gozak brawler/scout helm do EXACTLY the same thing, they give a disease dmg proc and heal to every CA for the duration of their proc the only difference is that the duration on them is shorter, however you can't shorten the reuse on the gozak helm while you can shorten the others, hell they dont even stack because they are the SAME thing.  Get a clue they are the EXACT same item. </p><p>So I would suggest you look at your own claim about me not knowing anything about mechanics put that on yourself and maybe do a little actual research before opening your mouth next time ok?  Also don't call names its not nice, and don't claim like you are some great mechanics wizard and then just completely drop the ball, it will just ruin what credibility you have left. </p><p>Now I know you are going to try and come back with something about the plate helm and zarrakon wrist both putting a debuff on the mob so thats how they are similar but at best its a reach one heals one does dps that is not the same thing.  Last but not least is they stack unlike the clicky proc so I guess devs agree with me too right?</p></blockquote><p>My bad I looked at the proc wrong.  However, the Zarrakon proc does more DPS for people than what the Plate helm does...which can be supported by multiple posted parses.</p><p>The fact of the matter is you have no clue how much DPS this helm does and for some reason you just want to argue for the sake of arguing...just like the majority of your posts.  I mean if you actually had anything credible to say ever you might be worth paying attention to...you polluting a post that you have no idea about though is just annoying.</p><p>Love how you get to compare an item that has a similar buff that lasts 1/4 of the time doing way less damage.</p><p>Must be tough to be a know-it-all that really is lacking.</p></blockquote><p>I should probably sit back and enjoy the show on this one, but I find myself in need of clarification here, so bear with me:Bruener, are you basically complaining that a plate item (designed for tanks) comes with a damage proc component tied to it that does less DPS than a parallel proc on a parallel item designed for DPS classes (scouts)?</p>

[Bruener]

<p>No, the point of the post is to point out that the helm is lacking compared to the other nice helms that drops form this guy.</p><p>What I would really like to see is a regenerating ward proc in place of the crappy damage proc that is on there now.</p><p>See the point is that this item is supposed to be a best in slot item....and for plates it is not.  In fact the more that have it on a raid the less it does.  No others have to put up with that.  So why don't you read the OP again and than maybe you will see what I am saying.</p><p>BTW I am raiding tonight so gonna post some of the numbers I am seeing....</p><p>Enraged Haladan : 75 DPS</p><p>Glaciactus: 40 DPS</p><p>Xaxia Viralus: 101 DPS</p><p>Qxectus Qxectus: 60 DPS</p><p>Ykesha: 54 DPS</p><p>Yeah real good.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>My bad I looked at the proc wrong.  However, the Zarrakon proc does more DPS for people than what the Plate helm does...which can be supported by multiple posted parses.</p><p>The fact of the matter is you have no clue how much DPS this helm does and for some reason you just want to argue for the sake of arguing...just like the majority of your posts.  I mean if you actually had anything credible to say ever you might be worth paying attention to...you polluting a post that you have no idea about though is just annoying.</p><p>Love how you get to compare an item that has a similar buff that lasts 1/4 of the time doing way less damage.</p><p>Must be tough to be a know-it-all that really is lacking.</p></blockquote><p>LAWL don't try to question my credibility after I just proved you completely uncredible, fact is I am the absolute top of my class and you are just simple mid card fluff plain and simple.  You can't compare creds here Bruener mine is like a sexy foot long sub to your little crumb, and I am not saying this to be boastful, I am mearly pointing out your place in the pecking order.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Siatfallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I should probably sit back and enjoy the show on this one, but I find myself in need of clarification here, so bear with me:Bruener, are you basically complaining that a plate item (designed for tanks) comes with a damage proc component tied to it that does less DPS than a parallel proc on a parallel item designed for DPS classes (scouts)?</p></blockquote><p>I had 0 dps on rampage on my last Enraged Haladan fight OMG I was wearing my set helm please buff the gozak dps helm, I had 0 on Xaxia too because I take care of the pedistals please buff our helm omg!</p><p>I mean seriously this is his argument.  I wish Gozak dropped a helm for me that I could wear and not lose my T4 6 set bonus so I could tank in it.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Siatfallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I should probably sit back and enjoy the show on this one, but I find myself in need of clarification here, so bear with me:Bruener, are you basically complaining that a plate item (designed for tanks) comes with a damage proc component tied to it that does less DPS than a parallel proc on a parallel item designed for DPS classes (scouts)?</p></blockquote><p>I had 0 dps on rampage on my last Enraged Haladan fight OMG I was wearing my set helm please buff the gozak dps helm, I had 0 on Xaxia too because I take care of the pedistals please buff our helm omg!</p><p>I mean seriously this is his argument.  I wish Gozak dropped a helm for me that I could wear and not lose my T4 6 set bonus so I could tank in it.</p></blockquote><p>Do you not even realize how ridiculous you sound?  Ok, so just because you don't wear yours...for some reason you have a problem with the Plate helm made better when it is lacking compared to every other helm.  The fact you drop your helm for 6 set bonus is your choice, you could easily drop any other piece....or you can do like the other brawlers and bug out the set and wear as little as 4 pieces with 6 set bonus.</p><p>And please do not even try to compare yourself as a player to me.  I am twice the player you are at least.  You can claim to be top notch in your class but the fact is I know nobody at the top level with me that can even comment on how you play...because reall you are a nobody in a good guild.</p><p>The fact that you are even in this thread shows how little you know about the game and really all you look to do on these boards is argue....most of the time from the wrong side.  Where are these supposedly OP'd parses of Bludgeon...I put up the numbers that were in my parser tonight.  A bunch of words with nothing to back them really mean nothing man.  Go learn something.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Do you not even realize how ridiculous you sound?  Ok, so just because you don't wear yours...for some reason you have a problem with the Plate helm made better when it is lacking compared to every other helm.  The fact you drop your helm for 6 set bonus is your choice, you could easily drop any other piece....or you can do like the other brawlers and bug out the set and wear as little as 4 pieces with 6 set bonus.</p><p>And please do not even try to compare yourself as a player to me.  I am twice the player you are at least.  You can claim to be top notch in your class but the fact is I know nobody at the top level with me that can even comment on how you play...because reall you are a nobody in a good guild.</p><p>The fact that you are even in this thread shows how little you know about the game and really all you look to do on these boards is argue....most of the time from the wrong side.  Where are these supposedly OP'd parses of Bludgeon...I put up the numbers that were in my parser tonight.  A bunch of words with nothing to back them really mean nothing man.  Go learn something.</p></blockquote><p>/yawn</p><p>I proved you wrong enough on this thread.  But you know if you pop on eq2players you see the brawler Gozak helm has this little thing about being first discovered by me while 6 months later you have just gotten yours.  I mean seriously if we are going to compare lets do it then:</p><p>I kill stuff before you</p><p>I tank stuff before you</p><p>I out dps you</p><p>I don't need to be told how the zarrakon wrist works</p><p>What exactly are you bringing to the table to compare, I mean Ill be honest I don't really care about your accomplishments but you want to play the whole 'I am better then you I know better then you' game except this time you are getting called out for it so bring it on I could use the laughs.</p><p>Or we can get back on topic, how again is your helm better then mine when I can't even really use my helm when tanking tough mobs yet you seem free to use yours whenever you like?  Oh right I don't know how to gear right yet I out dps and out tank you so where does that put you exactly?</p>

[BChizzle]

<p>You know what its my birthday and I am in a generous mood so before you go choking on your foot Ill just do this, here is the last QQ fight I had my SK was wearing the helm as was my guard.  Here is what the SK parsed with it compared to what I parse with mine, the awesome thing is it is an exactly 5 minute fight so its the full reuse of my hat vs yours no excuses, now keep in mind the SK's hat would have been a higher parse had the guard not been wearing his hat.</p><p><img src="http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o176/mallent/hats.jpg" /></p><p>I think it is easy to conclude from the direct example that your hat is better dps?</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Do you not even realize how ridiculous you sound?  Ok, so just because you don't wear yours...for some reason you have a problem with the Plate helm made better when it is lacking compared to every other helm.  The fact you drop your helm for 6 set bonus is your choice, you could easily drop any other piece....or you can do like the other brawlers and bug out the set and wear as little as 4 pieces with 6 set bonus.</p><p>And please do not even try to compare yourself as a player to me.  I am twice the player you are at least.  You can claim to be top notch in your class but the fact is I know nobody at the top level with me that can even comment on how you play...because reall you are a nobody in a good guild.</p><p>The fact that you are even in this thread shows how little you know about the game and really all you look to do on these boards is argue....most of the time from the wrong side.  Where are these supposedly OP'd parses of Bludgeon...I put up the numbers that were in my parser tonight.  A bunch of words with nothing to back them really mean nothing man.  Go learn something.</p></blockquote><p>/yawn</p><p>I proved you wrong enough on this thread.  But you know if you pop on eq2players you see the brawler Gozak helm has this little thing about being first discovered by me while 6 months later you have just gotten yours.  I mean seriously if we are going to compare lets do it then:</p><p>I kill stuff before you</p><p>I tank stuff before you</p><p>I out dps you</p><p>I don't need to be told how the zarrakon wrist works</p><p>What exactly are you bringing to the table to compare, I mean Ill be honest I don't really care about your accomplishments but you want to play the whole 'I am better then you I know better then you' game except this time you are getting called out for it so bring it on I could use the laughs.</p><p>Or we can get back on topic, how again is your helm better then mine when I can't even really use my helm when tanking tough mobs yet you seem free to use yours whenever you like?  Oh right I don't know how to gear right yet I out dps and out tank you so where does that put you exactly?</p></blockquote><p>All I see are a bunch of words you seem to think are true just because you typed them out.  The fact is I guarantee I out tank, out DPS, and just plain am a better person than you.  Is that good enough for ya?  And guess what I can do it a few nights a week with my guild and kill the same stuff as you.</p><p>You show one parse where they actually parsed equivalent.  Of course your SK was also probably in the entire fight not worrying about jousting and actually got a lot more on the mobs.  You failed with your helm, because there are a lot of other parses where that number is significantly low.  If anything all you proved was that the Plate helm does low DPS...on a joust heavy fight yours just happened to do as low.  I am not sure why you are butt hurt because you don't wear yours.  Nobody forces you to not wear it.  You make a choice to not wear it because you want to wear the Avatar BP.  That is your choice.  The fact is though that the Plate helm is broken for the simple reason it does not stack.  You had 1 person in the entire raid wearing it and it did 100 DPS.  Have a second person wearing it and it will do half that.  Does the DPS on your helm go down when more brawlers/scouts are wearing it?</p><p>Anyway like usual there is no talking any type of sense into you because you get something stuck in that little pea sized brain and decide that you are right and everybody else is wrong.  You ever ask your SK why he doesn't wear the helm usually?  Or like usual are you too scared to listen to what people better than you have to say.</p><p>Go troll elsewhere unless you have some descent imput that the OP was trying to address.  You can never justify a broken mechanic....broken means broken.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>All I see are a bunch of words you seem to think are true just because you typed them out.  The fact is I guarantee I out tank, out DPS, and just plain am a better person than you.  Is that good enough for ya?  And guess what I can do it a few nights a week with my guild and kill the same stuff as you.</p><p>You show one parse where they actually parsed equivalent.  Of course your SK was also probably in the entire fight not worrying about jousting and actually got a lot more on the mobs.  You failed with your helm, because there are a lot of other parses where that number is significantly low.  If anything all you proved was that the Plate helm does low DPS...on a joust heavy fight yours just happened to do as low.  I am not sure why you are butt hurt because you don't wear yours.  Nobody forces you to not wear it.  You make a choice to not wear it because you want to wear the Avatar BP.  That is your choice.  The fact is though that the Plate helm is broken for the simple reason it does not stack.  You had 1 person in the entire raid wearing it and it did 100 DPS.  Have a second person wearing it and it will do half that.  Does the DPS on your helm go down when more brawlers/scouts are wearing it?</p><p>Anyway like usual there is no talking any type of sense into you because you get something stuck in that little pea sized brain and decide that you are right and everybody else is wrong.  You ever ask your SK why he doesn't wear the helm usually?  Or like usual are you too scared to listen to what people better than you have to say.</p><p>Go troll elsewhere unless you have some descent imput that the OP was trying to address.  You can never justify a broken mechanic....broken means broken.</p></blockquote><p>Its amusing how bad you are at reading comprehension, I clearly stated that on the parse I shared my guard and my SK were wearing the helm.  You choose to use the QQ fight as an example now you are crying about it being a joust heavy fight?  Look you are obviously wrong quit trying to make personal attacks just admit you are wrong and move along.  It is blatently plain to see you don't know what you are talking about and falling back on the whole "I am better then you" defense that people like you use when you don't have a leg to stand on isn't going to work here since well you aren't better then me in any way.</p><p>I'll be honest man, maybe you just aren't that great a player and can't get your attacks going at a decent enough pace to proc your helm enough, perhaps instead of being here calling names at me you time would be better suited at a training dummy learning to time your attacks.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>All I see are a bunch of words you seem to think are true just because you typed them out.  The fact is I guarantee I out tank, out DPS, and just plain am a better person than you.  Is that good enough for ya?  And guess what I can do it a few nights a week with my guild and kill the same stuff as you.</p><p>You show one parse where they actually parsed equivalent.  Of course your SK was also probably in the entire fight not worrying about jousting and actually got a lot more on the mobs.  You failed with your helm, because there are a lot of other parses where that number is significantly low.  If anything all you proved was that the Plate helm does low DPS...on a joust heavy fight yours just happened to do as low.  I am not sure why you are butt hurt because you don't wear yours.  Nobody forces you to not wear it.  You make a choice to not wear it because you want to wear the Avatar BP.  That is your choice.  The fact is though that the Plate helm is broken for the simple reason it does not stack.  You had 1 person in the entire raid wearing it and it did 100 DPS.  Have a second person wearing it and it will do half that.  Does the DPS on your helm go down when more brawlers/scouts are wearing it?</p><p>Anyway like usual there is no talking any type of sense into you because you get something stuck in that little pea sized brain and decide that you are right and everybody else is wrong.  You ever ask your SK why he doesn't wear the helm usually?  Or like usual are you too scared to listen to what people better than you have to say.</p><p>Go troll elsewhere unless you have some descent imput that the OP was trying to address.  You can never justify a broken mechanic....broken means broken.</p></blockquote><p>Its amusing how bad you are at reading comprehension, I clearly stated that on the parse I shared my guard and my SK were wearing the helm.  You choose to use the QQ fight as an example now you are crying about it being a joust heavy fight?  Look you are obviously wrong quit trying to make personal attacks just admit you are wrong and move along.  It is blatently plain to see you don't know what you are talking about and falling back on the whole "I am better then you" defense that people like you use when you don't have a leg to stand on isn't going to work here since well you aren't better then me in any way.</p><p>I'll be honest man, maybe you just aren't that great a player and can't get your attacks going at a decent enough pace to proc your helm enough, perhaps instead of being here calling names at me you time would be better suited at a training dummy learning to time your attacks.</p></blockquote><p>I'll be honest with you man.  I think you should take a look at yourself in the mirror and admit that you plain just fail and that if you were half as good as what you think you are EQ2 maybe people would find a reason to listen to you.  Instead all you enjoy doing is taking the opposite end of an argument, spout out a bunch of BS, and than stick to your guns expecting everybody to believe you.</p><p>The fact of the matter is that the helm doesn't perform half as good as the other helms.  It is seen throughout many parses, just as the example of the parses I was showing for it last night.  Welled up rage from Tyrannus neck usually doubles the DPS of this helm.  It is not made up info, it is constant analyzing of the procs.</p><p>And all you can do is say, NO, YOU ARE WRONG.  You have nothing.  You show 1 parse with it doing 100 DPS and I show it doing 4 or 5 parses with it doing significantly less.  You still can't even address the fact that the item has stacking issues unlike other helms and the fact that parses posted by much better players than you have Rampage doing significanlty more DPS.  What happened to the argument you had that said the helm does insane amounts of DPS?  Fall way short on that one?</p><p>I personally attack back when you personally attacked me again.  You have no clue how I play.  We have never played together.  You act like you are this high and might brawler when the fact of the matter is we kill the same mobs....only we can do it with half the play time.  Why don't you go find another thread to throw some bogus argument into just because it gives you kicks trying to refute facts.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'll be honest with you man.  I think you should take a look at yourself in the mirror and admit that you plain just fail and that if you were half as good as what you think you are EQ2 maybe people would find a reason to listen to you.  Instead all you enjoy doing is taking the opposite end of an argument, spout out a bunch of BS, and than stick to your guns expecting everybody to believe you.</p><p>The fact of the matter is that the helm doesn't perform half as good as the other helms.  It is seen throughout many parses, just as the example of the parses I was showing for it last night.  Welled up rage from Tyrannus neck usually doubles the DPS of this helm.  It is not made up info, it is constant analyzing of the procs.</p><p>And all you can do is say, NO, YOU ARE WRONG.  You have nothing.  You show 1 parse with it doing 100 DPS and I show it doing 4 or 5 parses with it doing significantly less.  You still can't even address the fact that the item has stacking issues unlike other helms and the fact that parses posted by much better players than you have Rampage doing significanlty more DPS.  What happened to the argument you had that said the helm does insane amounts of DPS?  Fall way short on that one?</p><p>I personally attack back when you personally attacked me again.  You have no clue how I play.  We have never played together.  You act like you are this high and might brawler when the fact of the matter is we kill the same mobs....only we can do it with half the play time.  Why don't you go find another thread to throw some bogus argument into just because it gives you kicks trying to refute facts.</p></blockquote><p>So according to you the proc from the Gozak helm should be better then any proc in the game?  Now you are comparing it to a proc from a neck item?  First off you didn't show any parses all you did was type a number.  I however provided a direct comparison between the brawler helm and the plate helm and actually showed the parse.  Lets face it any semblance of argument you tried to bring to this conversation I have ripped apart like it was nothing, its not because I am a good at debating it is because when it boils down you are simply wrong.</p><p>Like I said maybe the reason why you can't get your helm working is that you just simply aren't that good with your attacks.  Seems my SK does double what yours does even with a second helm in the raid, he probably doubles your parses too but you know you will just come here and type a number amirite?</p><p>Here is a suggestion for you though, instead of relying on your whole "I am better then you" argument why don't you come with facts, you said your helm wasn't as good as the brawler one but I showed you it outparsing the brawler one in a direct comparison.  I can also show you my brigands helm doing less that fight too if you like, but it isn't really a fair comparison to go scout with tank is it I mean he might have had to joust where I didnt.  I'll also have you note my parse I put up there is [Removed for Content] near perfect 40 CA swings in 1 minute for a brawler is as close to perfection as you will see.  And when you do your comparision do it for helms, I mean seriously it is pretty sad you want to compare a helm to a neck proc.</p><p>Anyways continue with your personal attacks I find them entertaining, but don't expect me to return them.  You are doing enough damage to the perception of your worth every time you post why would anyone even bother?</p>

[Bruener]

<p>Honestly you are a piece of junk and a nobody.  I have wasted twice as much time as I should argue'ing with you.  Nothing you say even matters.</p><p>Back to the OP.  I would love to see some others that are using this item chime in.  I know everybody I have talked to says it is very poor performance.  Yes I have had this item for a while, and I try to warn others in the guild before they get it that it really is nothing like you expect....they all agree.</p><p>The fact that the debuff doesn't stack is a broken issue.  The more people wearing it in a raid should not lower the DPS per person.  Also to be brought up to par with what other classes see in gains from their helm it needs to do about twice as much damage.  Or, actually change the proc to something befit a Tank.  Regenerating ward ftw.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Honestly you are a piece of junk and a nobody. </p></blockquote><p>I parse higher, tank better, kill things faster, can understand simple things like the zarrakon wrist, am in a better guild, and undisputably am at the top of my class.  So if I am junk and a nobody where exactly does that place you?</p><p>And it is completely rediculous you are crying about Gozak dropping a DPS increasing helm when (with the exception of plate and chain healers which I doubt they will complain) he drops a dps helm for everyone.</p>

[Gungo]

<p>You are both right.The plate helm does anywhere from 200-700dps on fights depending on the fight. It is flat out a better dps item. But provides smaller individual bonuses because of the stacking issue. If you were really worried about the stacking issues use the byzola helm it is the same type of effect, but stacks with this one and still can do 500 dps. This is not a broken effect. It is intended and the same effect that was on the byzola helm and chain Bp in SOH.</p><p>The brawler version is a nice burst dps item, but does significantly less dps in the same amount of time, at most 150dps in a 5 min fight. I wish it was a 2 min reuse clicky.</p><p>Ideally the plate and brawler version should be switched because lets face it at most 1 brawler is in a raid and there are several plate tanks/plate healers in raid. So if both of you feel the grass is greener on the other side neither of you should have an issue with fyreflyte switching these 2 effects.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You are both right.The plate helm does anywhere from 200-700dps on fights depending on the fight. It is flat out a better dps item. But provides smaller individual bonuses because of the stacking issue. If you were really worried about the stacking issues use the byzola helm it is the same type of effect, but stacks with this one and still can do 500 dps. This is not a broken effect. It is intended and the same effect that was on the byzola helm and chain Bp in SOH.</p><p>The brawler version is a nice burst dps item, but does significantly less dps in the same amount of time, at most 150dps in a 5 min fight. I wish it was a 2 min reuse clicky.</p><p>Ideally the plate and brawler version should be switched because lets face it at most 1 brawler is in a raid and there are several plate tanks/plate healers in raid. So if both of you feel the grass is greener on the other side neither of you should have an issue with fyreflyte switching these 2 effects.</p></blockquote><p>TBH, the plate helm is more suited to plate classes, the leather one procs a heal which makes it awesome on soloing but with that heal and plate armor it would be way OP the only reason why the heal works is because leather and chain wear it.  But dps wise which is the argment he was trying to so failfully make the plate helm is better.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You are both right.The plate helm does anywhere from 200-700dps on fights depending on the fight. It is flat out a better dps item. But provides smaller individual bonuses because of the stacking issue. If you were really worried about the stacking issues use the byzola helm it is the same type of effect, but stacks with this one and still can do 500 dps. This is not a broken effect. It is intended and the same effect that was on the byzola helm and chain Bp in SOH.</p><p>The brawler version is a nice burst dps item, but does significantly less dps in the same amount of time, at most 150dps in a 5 min fight. I wish it was a 2 min reuse clicky.</p><p>Ideally the plate and brawler version should be switched because lets face it at most 1 brawler is in a raid and there are several plate tanks/plate healers in raid. So if both of you feel the grass is greener on the other side neither of you should have an issue with fyreflyte switching these 2 effects.</p></blockquote><p>TBH, the plate helm is more suited to plate classes, the leather one procs a heal which makes it awesome on soloing but with that heal and plate armor it would be way OP the only reason why the heal works is because leather and chain wear it.  But dps wise which is the argment he was trying to so failfully make the plate helm is better.</p></blockquote><p>There was no fail what-so-ever.  There is not a parse existing out there that shows this helm proc doing 500 DPS.  Pre-proc nerf, yes it did.  Since than it is one of the lowest procs from an item top end Plates are wearing.  It does about as much DPS as the Mynzak wrist most of the time.  The numbers I posted are standard numbers.</p><p>So why do you think that the heal would be OP'd on plate but is fine on leather.  I mean we know that there reallys isn't "leather" mit anymore.  Brawlers crawl pretty close to Plate mit % because of curve and mit boosts.</p><p>Seriously, have any of you actually looked at what this helm does since the proc nerf?  Go check out parses.  You are going to see it way down on the damage list, lucky to do 100 DPS most of the time, usually less.  Not to mention the fact it is broken that it won't stack.  Pre-proc nerf I could see the justification for that....now that the DPS is A LOT less this should stack.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>There was no fail what-so-ever.  There is not a parse existing out there that shows this helm proc doing 500 DPS.  Pre-proc nerf, yes it did.  Since than it is one of the lowest procs from an item top end Plates are wearing.  It does about as much DPS as the Mynzak wrist most of the time.  The numbers I posted are standard numbers.</p><p>So why do you think that the heal would be OP'd on plate but is fine on leather.  I mean we know that there reallys isn't "leather" mit anymore.  Brawlers crawl pretty close to Plate mit % because of curve and mit boosts.</p><p>Seriously, have any of you actually looked at what this helm does since the proc nerf?  Go check out parses.  You are going to see it way down on the damage list, lucky to do 100 DPS most of the time, usually less.  Not to mention the fact it is broken that it won't stack.  Pre-proc nerf I could see the justification for that....now that the DPS is A LOT less this should stack.</p></blockquote><p>If I show you it doing 500 dps on a mob will you finally just give it up?  The numbers you posted arent standard people are telling you that you are wrong but you won't listen.  And brawlers can get close to plate mit buffed in raids, the heal is useless in raids since you know you are getting healed by healers.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>There was no fail what-so-ever.  There is not a parse existing out there that shows this helm proc doing 500 DPS.  Pre-proc nerf, yes it did.  Since than it is one of the lowest procs from an item top end Plates are wearing.  It does about as much DPS as the Mynzak wrist most of the time.  The numbers I posted are standard numbers.</p><p>So why do you think that the heal would be OP'd on plate but is fine on leather.  I mean we know that there reallys isn't "leather" mit anymore.  Brawlers crawl pretty close to Plate mit % because of curve and mit boosts.</p><p>Seriously, have any of you actually looked at what this helm does since the proc nerf?  Go check out parses.  You are going to see it way down on the damage list, lucky to do 100 DPS most of the time, usually less.  Not to mention the fact it is broken that it won't stack.  Pre-proc nerf I could see the justification for that....now that the DPS is A LOT less this should stack.</p></blockquote><p>If I show you it doing 500 dps on a mob will you finally just give it up?  The numbers you posted arent standard people are telling you that you are wrong but you won't listen.  And brawlers can get close to plate mit buffed in raids, the heal is useless in raids since you know you are getting healed by healers.</p></blockquote><p>What people?  I see one person saying I am wrong.  I see another one that wanted to clarify what the OP was about and I have one saying we are both right.  You are not "people".  I question your ability to be able to pull out a descent length fight where this helm does 500 DPS.  Better yet, pull out a ZW since that is much more accurate.  On the other hand there are plenty of descent length fights showing rampage doing 400+ dps.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What people?  I see one person saying I am wrong.  I see another one that wanted to clarify what the OP was about and I have one saying we are both right.  You are not "people".  I question your ability to be able to pull out a descent length fight where this helm does 500 DPS.  Better yet, pull out a ZW since that is much more accurate.  On the other hand there are plenty of descent length fights showing rampage doing 400+ dps.</p></blockquote><p>You have 3 people saying the plate helm does more dps, sorry you have trouble with reading comprehension the way you do but sadly it doesn't surprise me.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What people?  I see one person saying I am wrong.  I see another one that wanted to clarify what the OP was about and I have one saying we are both right.  You are not "people".  I question your ability to be able to pull out a descent length fight where this helm does 500 DPS.  Better yet, pull out a ZW since that is much more accurate.  On the other hand there are plenty of descent length fights showing rampage doing 400+ dps.</p></blockquote><p>You have 3 people saying the plate helm does more dps, sorry you have trouble with reading comprehension the way you do but sadly it doesn't surprise me.</p></blockquote><p>Maybe you should go back through and read what other people said.  And 2 people say it does DPS that it does not do.  There are no parses of that helm throwing out 500 DPS.  Stop dodging.  The fact is the helm does a lot less DPS than what you claim, where as there are plenty of parses with Rampage doing 400+ DPS.  Still waiting for you to produce that magic parse of the helm proc doing 500 DPS.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p>When you answer my question about whether or not you will finally give up this folly of yours if I provide a 500 dps parse then I will judge if it is worth my time to post one.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>When you answer my question about whether or not you will finally give up this folly of yours if I provide a 500 dps parse then I will judge if it is worth my time to post one.</p></blockquote><p>Bring it.  I want a legitimate parse...not some fluke.  A good named parse...something like say Ykesha.  500 DPS.  Rampage can do that much so lets see you bring the Ykesha parse.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>When you answer my question about whether or not you will finally give up this folly of yours if I provide a 500 dps parse then I will judge if it is worth my time to post one.</p></blockquote><p>Bring it.  I want a legitimate parse...not some fluke.  A good named parse...something like say Ykesha.  500 DPS.  Rampage can do that much so lets see you bring the Ykesha parse.</p></blockquote><p>Rampage doesnt do 500 dps on Ykesha, like I said and you just refuse to get in your thick skull you cant compare an ae scouts output to a fighter and quit making all these requirements because you know [Removed for Content] well your helm does 500 dps on fights.  You are already backpedalling so we both know the answer, you are backed in a corner and even you know you are wrong and you are just grasping at straws, but hey you know the brawler helm dos so much how about you show me a ykesha parse with a brawler having 500 dps from their helm, you won't be able to do it but hey lets see you try.  Do you even raid with a brawler my guess is no since you have proven countless times you don't know what you are talking about when reffering to the brawler helm.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>When you answer my question about whether or not you will finally give up this folly of yours if I provide a 500 dps parse then I will judge if it is worth my time to post one.</p></blockquote><p>Bring it.  I want a legitimate parse...not some fluke.  A good named parse...something like say Ykesha.  500 DPS.  Rampage can do that much so lets see you bring the Ykesha parse.</p></blockquote><p>Rampage doesnt do 500 dps on Ykesha, like I said and you just refuse to get in your thick skull you cant compare an ae scouts output to a fighter and quit making all these requirements because you know [Removed for Content] well your helm does 500 dps on fights.  You are already backpedalling so we both know the answer, you are backed in a corner and even you know you are wrong and you are just grasping at straws, but hey you know the brawler helm dos so much how about you show me a ykesha parse with a brawler having 500 dps from their helm, you won't be able to do it but hey lets see you try.  Do you even raid with a brawler my guess is no since you have proven countless times you don't know what you are talking about when reffering to the brawler helm.</p></blockquote><p>I am amazed if I see it do 150 DPS.  Sorry but you are wrong.  Lets see you produce it.  The fact is the helms are supposed to be best in slot and the fact they choice to have DPS be the method to do that on Fighters than it needs to be up to par.  Rampage on the other does do that much DPS and yes it does on those types of fights.</p><p>So you brought up the challenge...lets see that 500 DPS encounter, not some sluff 30 sec encounter it happened to go off a bunch.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am amazed if I see it do 150 DPS.  Sorry but you are wrong.  Lets see you produce it.  The fact is the helms are supposed to be best in slot and the fact they choice to have DPS be the method to do that on Fighters than it needs to be up to par.  Rampage on the other does do that much DPS and yes it does on those types of fights.</p><p>So you brought up the challenge...lets see that 500 DPS encounter, not some sluff 30 sec encounter it happened to go off a bunch.</p></blockquote><p>Do you realize how dumb you sound?  I mean seriously this is you "The helm won't proc 500 dps as long as you only include a parse where the sun and the moon is aligned a dog is barking and at the time of the parse a child is being born with 4 arms."</p><p>You are the one making claims that the helm cannot parse 500 then backing off those claims.  So please provide me with a Ykesha parse with the BRAWLER helm doing 400+ DPS as you claim.</p><p>On top of that your claim this 'helm' is supposed to be the best for its slot is just plain evidence of how you are completely oblivious to PLATE tank itemization.  Not counting worthless trash drops you as an SK have access to your set helm, the avatar helm and the gozak helm a brawler gets gozak and their set helm please quit QQing about itemization when you clearly get more options.</p>

[Landiin]

I say post the parses and be done with it.. Other wise Bruener wins..

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I say post the parses and be done with it.. Other wise Bruener wins..</blockquote><p>I am the only one who has posted parses this whole thread, he already lost.</p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I say post the parses and be done with it.. Other wise Bruener wins..</blockquote><p>I am the only one who has posted parses this whole thread, he already lost.</p></blockquote><p>Oh yea my bad, I got the names wrong.. I fail at trolling so sad.. :/</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I say post the parses and be done with it.. Other wise Bruener wins..</blockquote><p>I am the only one who has posted parses this whole thread, he already lost.</p></blockquote><p>Oh yea my bad, I got the names wrong.. I fail at trolling so sad.. :/</p></blockquote><p>Its ok I forgive you!  The whole thing that gets me here is he is trying to cry about having another defensive helm when he already has the avatar one, he is exclaiming the plate helm doesn't do more dps then the brawler one when it is pretty obvious it does, and he is using as his defense a single defined scenario where the helm may do less dps but even in his scenario it doesn't.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I say post the parses and be done with it.. Other wise Bruener wins..</blockquote><p>I am the only one who has posted parses this whole thread, he already lost.</p></blockquote><p>Oh yea my bad, I got the names wrong.. I fail at trolling so sad.. :/</p></blockquote><p>Its ok I forgive you!  The whole thing that gets me here is he is trying to cry about having another defensive helm when he already has the avatar one, he is exclaiming the plate helm doesn't do more dps then the brawler one when it is pretty obvious it does, and he is using as his defense a single defined scenario where the helm may do less dps but even in his scenario it doesn't.</p></blockquote><p>No, he got it right the first time.  We are waiting for these so called parses of the helm doing 500 DPS.  So far you have shown it doing 100 DPS once.  I don't make up the numbers I post....I just don't feel like photo-shopping every parse.  The numbers I put down are accurate numbers.  Zarrakon last night it did a whopping.....you ready for this....85 DPS.  With me on the named the entire time.</p><p>So where are those 500 DPS parses?  Come on....you said it does it all the time.  And yet even your tanks don't justify wearing it because IT DOESN'T DO A 1/5th OF THAT most of the time.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I just don't feel like photo-shopping every parse.</p></blockquote><p>Enough said right here.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p>OMG no photoshop!</p><p><img src="http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o176/mallent/bruenerfails.jpg" width="1020" height="116" /></p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>OMG no photoshop!</p><p><img src="http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o176/mallent/bruenerfails.jpg" width="1020" height="116" /></p></blockquote><p>49 sec parse.  Seriously?  Yeah you fail miserably.  Guess what rampage in 49 sec can do.......thats right like 1200 DPS.  What happened to posting a meaningful parse?  You are a waste of time and for some reason you are determined to stear this thread wrong with your garbage.  That parse is 49 seconds....49 seconds man.  Let me guess, now you are going to come back with the excuse that all you had to prove was it hitting 500+ DPS.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>OMG no photoshop!</p><p><img src="http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o176/mallent/bruenerfails.jpg" width="1020" height="116" /></p></blockquote><p>49 sec parse.  Seriously?  Yeah you fail miserably.  Guess what rampage in 49 sec can do.......thats right like 1200 DPS.  What happened to posting a meaningful parse?  You are a waste of time and for some reason you are determined to stear this thread wrong with your garbage.  That parse is 49 seconds....49 seconds man.  Let me guess, now you are going to come back with the excuse that all you had to prove was it hitting 500+ DPS.</p></blockquote><p>Lawl, QQ some more thats back to back parses on just the first named in palace, you asked for 500 I provided now please enjoy your large plate of crow.</p>

[Bruener]

<p>I asked for a legit fight....something actually normal in the raiding world.  Guess what I can go HT a gray mob and get 35k DPS.  That is exactly what you are showing there.  Lets see a FG/Ykesha/Miragul/Munzok/Gozak/Umzok/Anashti/Mynzak parse.  All that you have shown is that you will use any pathetic attempt to win an argument you are clearly in the wrong about.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I asked for a legit fight....something actually normal in the raiding world.  Guess what I can go HT a gray mob and get 35k DPS.  That is exactly what you are showing there.  Lets see a FG/Ykesha/Miragul/Munzok/Gozak/Umzok/Anashti/Mynzak parse.  All that you have shown is that you will use any pathetic attempt to win an argument you are clearly in the wrong about.</p></blockquote><p>I just showed the first two named in palace.  I find it just a complete joke you are still hanging on to this.  Let's put it in an easy to understand way maybe you can understand, your helm > brawler helm for DPS by ALOT!  Now I have provided my evidence if you wish to PLEASE provide me with a ZW of any zone where your brawlers helm is doing more DPS then the plate helm, you won't be able to do it.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I asked for a legit fight....something actually normal in the raiding world.  Guess what I can go HT a gray mob and get 35k DPS.  That is exactly what you are showing there.  Lets see a FG/Ykesha/Miragul/Munzok/Gozak/Umzok/Anashti/Mynzak parse.  All that you have shown is that you will use any pathetic attempt to win an argument you are clearly in the wrong about.</p></blockquote><p>I just showed the first two named in palace.  I find it just a complete joke you are still hanging on to this.  Let's put it in an easy to understand way maybe you can understand, your helm > brawler helm for DPS by ALOT!  Now I have provided my evidence if you wish to PLEASE provide me with a ZW of any zone where your brawlers helm is doing more DPS then the plate helm, you won't be able to do it.</p></blockquote><p>What brawler?</p><p>You used a joke of a parse.  A loot pinata mob that lasted a whopping 49 sec.  Like I said, a 49 sec parse for a brawler could easily be 1200+ DPS with that helm.  Unless of course you can't understand simple math.  Even just 1 CA a second = 1200+ per sec.  But we know that that is not a fair assessment just like the junk you posted is not even close to a relative assessment.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I asked for a legit fight....something actually normal in the raiding world.  Guess what I can go HT a gray mob and get 35k DPS.  That is exactly what you are showing there.  Lets see a FG/Ykesha/Miragul/Munzok/Gozak/Umzok/Anashti/Mynzak parse.  All that you have shown is that you will use any pathetic attempt to win an argument you are clearly in the wrong about.</p></blockquote><p>I just showed the first two named in palace.  I find it just a complete joke you are still hanging on to this.  Let's put it in an easy to understand way maybe you can understand, your helm > brawler helm for DPS by ALOT!  Now I have provided my evidence if you wish to PLEASE provide me with a ZW of any zone where your brawlers helm is doing more DPS then the plate helm, you won't be able to do it.</p></blockquote><p>What brawler?</p><p>You used a joke of a parse.  A loot pinata mob that lasted a whopping 49 sec.  Like I said, a 49 sec parse for a brawler could easily be 1200+ DPS with that helm.  Unless of course you can't understand simple math.  Even just 1 CA a second = 1200+ per sec.  But we know that that is not a fair assessment just like the junk you posted is not even close to a relative assessment.</p></blockquote><p>How many times do I have to explain to you brawlers can only cast 1 ca per 1.5 seconds, are you that dumb I mean cmon I can't make it plainer to you?  That is 770 dps for the minute it is running but nothing for the remaining 4 minutes it isn't which isnt even close to what the plate helm did on the second mob.  I also parsed 2 mobs back to back the monk clicky would be over by the second mob as well as probably not being back up until the switchmaster mob is dead while the helm will still be proccing away.  Pretty much all you have done this whole thread is make things up with NOTHING absolutely NOTHING to back up your statements and all I have done is prove that everything you are saying is a complete sham.  Please accept now that you really don't have a clue what you are talking about take the complete ownage as a sign that you really should actually know what you are talking about before you open your mouth and give it up.  You lost you failed you got owned you look worse every time you post here it is game over, you are clicking your jump button but I already saved the princess from the castle took her back to the mushroom kingdom and had fireworks, all you are going to find here is a dead bowser and an empty room with some rope, don't hang yourself with it.</p>

[Mosha D'Khan]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I asked for a legit fight....something actually normal in the raiding world.  Guess what I can go HT a gray mob and get 35k DPS.  That is exactly what you are showing there.  Lets see a FG/Ykesha/Miragul/Munzok/Gozak/Umzok/Anashti/Mynzak parse.  All that you have shown is that you will use any pathetic attempt to win an argument you are clearly in the wrong about.</p></blockquote><p>I just showed the first two named in palace.  I find it just a complete joke you are still hanging on to this.  Let's put it in an easy to understand way maybe you can understand, your helm > brawler helm for DPS by ALOT!  Now I have provided my evidence if you wish to PLEASE provide me with a ZW of any zone where your brawlers helm is doing more DPS then the plate helm, you won't be able to do it.</p></blockquote><p>What brawler?</p><p>You used a joke of a parse.  A loot pinata mob that lasted a whopping 49 sec.  Like I said, a 49 sec parse for a brawler could easily be 1200+ DPS with that helm.  Unless of course you can't understand simple math.  Even just 1 CA a second = 1200+ per sec.  But we know that that is not a fair assessment just like the junk you posted is not even close to a relative assessment.</p></blockquote><p>How many times do I have to explain to you brawlers can only cast 1 ca per 1.5 seconds, are you that dumb I mean cmon I can't make it plainer to you?  That is 770 dps for the minute it is running but nothing for the remaining 4 minutes it isn't which isnt even close to what the plate helm did on the second mob.  I also parsed 2 mobs back to back the monk clicky would be over by the second mob as well as probably not being back up until the switchmaster mob is dead while the helm will still be proccing away.  Pretty much all you have done this whole thread is make things up with NOTHING absolutely NOTHING to back up your statements and all I have done is prove that everything you are saying is a complete sham.  Please accept now that you really don't have a clue what you are talking about take the complete ownage as a sign that you really should actually know what you are talking about before you open your mouth and give it up.  You lost you failed you got owned you look worse every time you post here it is game over, you are clicking your jump button but I already saved the princess from the castle took her back to the mushroom kingdom and had fireworks, all you are going to find here is a dead bowser and an empty room with some rope, don't hang yourself with it.</p></blockquote><p>bchizzle where are you getting brawlers only do 1 CA per 1.5 sec? as a bruiser i get 3 off before my auto attack goes off because of no self haste...... maybe that is just a monk thing. and when knockout is up i spam CAs over and over because for every CA that hits i get a bonus damage off. so when you are trying to claim stuff for "brawlers" make sure it is true for both classes not just monks</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span >bchizzle where are you getting brawlers only do 1 CA per 1.5 sec? as a bruiser i get 3 off before my auto attack goes off because of no self haste...... maybe that is just a monk thing. and when knockout is up i spam CAs over and over because for every CA that hits i get a bonus damage off. so when you are trying to claim stuff for "brawlers" make sure it is true for both classes not just monks</span></blockquote><p>If you can't cap yourself on haste in raids you don't belong in this conversation.</p>

[Mosha D'Khan]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span>bchizzle where are you getting brawlers only do 1 CA per 1.5 sec? as a bruiser i get 3 off before my auto attack goes off because of no self haste...... maybe that is just a monk thing. and when knockout is up i spam CAs over and over because for every CA that hits i get a bonus damage off. so when you are trying to claim stuff for "brawlers" make sure it is true for both classes not just monks</span></blockquote><p>If you can't cap yourself on haste in raids you don't belong in this conversation.</p></blockquote><p>i do cap my self in raid with a illy and dirge, thank you very much. and i still do more just spaming CA because of knock out and if i had another effect that was like knock out haste would not matter too me. and it would show a higher dps than what you do with it</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span >i do cap my self in raid with a illy and dirge, thank you very much. and i still do more just spaming CA because of knock out and if i had another effect that was like knock out haste would not matter too me. and it would show a higher dps than what you do with it</span></blockquote><p>If you don't understand the importance of timing CA's then sadly you also don't belong in this conversation.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span>i do cap my self in raid with a illy and dirge, thank you very much. and i still do more just spaming CA because of knock out and if i had another effect that was like knock out haste would not matter too me. and it would show a higher dps than what you do with it</span></blockquote><p>If you don't understand the importance of timing CA's then sadly you also don't belong in this conversation.</p></blockquote><p>The fact is delaying a couple auto attacks by a very miniscule time while the effect is up will not lower your DPS it will actually raise it.  Too bad you haven't figured that out yet.  Over the entire minute you might delay 1 auto attacks worth of attacks but you will get a ton more damage in proc DPS.</p><p>But, good luck trying to convince the guy that thinks he knows everything about this game that he is wrong.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span>i do cap my self in raid with a illy and dirge, thank you very much. and i still do more just spaming CA because of knock out and if i had another effect that was like knock out haste would not matter too me. and it would show a higher dps than what you do with it</span></blockquote><p>If you don't understand the importance of timing CA's then sadly you also don't belong in this conversation.</p></blockquote><p>The fact is delaying a couple auto attacks by a very miniscule time while the effect is up will not lower your DPS it will actually raise it.  Too bad you haven't figured that out yet.  Over the entire minute you might delay 1 auto attacks worth of attacks but you will get a ton more damage in proc DPS.</p><p>But, good luck trying to convince the guy that thinks he knows everything about this game that he is wrong.</p></blockquote><p>Wrong but nice try.</p>

[Mosha D'Khan]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span>i do cap my self in raid with a illy and dirge, thank you very much. and i still do more just spaming CA because of knock out and if i had another effect that was like knock out haste would not matter too me. and it would show a higher dps than what you do with it</span></blockquote><p>If you don't understand the importance of timing CA's then sadly you also don't belong in this conversation.</p></blockquote><p>The fact is delaying a couple auto attacks by a very miniscule time while the effect is up will not lower your DPS it will actually raise it.  Too bad you haven't figured that out yet.  Over the entire minute you might delay 1 auto attacks worth of attacks but you will get a ton more damage in proc DPS.</p><p>But, good luck trying to convince the guy that thinks he knows everything about this game that he is wrong.</p></blockquote><p>well lets see with 1 sec i can get about 2 attacks off roughly. .3sec to cast each and with chi up it is like what .1 recovery. now with 2CA i get there damage and 2 knockouts off because it is per CA not attack. so over all i will do more damage. and with a 1.6sec delay on auto attack i can almost get 3 CAs off before it goes off so infact i do know my time btw. this is other procs not included also. so infact with the bards and chanters stuff i would end up doing way more damage. dont know how you figure i dont. this is not including procs off gear also because they proc off both</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span >well lets see with 1 sec i can get about 2 attacks off roughly. .3sec to cast each and with chi up it is like what .1 recovery. now with 2CA i get there damage and 2 knockouts off because it is per CA not attack. so over all i will do more damage. and with a 1.6sec delay on auto attack i can almost get 3 CAs off before it goes off so infact i do know my time btw. this is other procs not included also. so infact with the bards and chanters stuff i would end up doing way more damage. dont know how you figure i dont. this is not including procs off gear also because they proc off both</span></blockquote><p>First Knockout lasts 20 seconds, 2nd chi only lasts 30 seconds, 3rd what exactly will you be doing when you have blown your CA's off in the first 20 seconds you wont be spamming them anymore because they wont be up, this will especially become an issue after chi is burnt out so you will just be auto attacking.  But hey lets do this, I'll make an alt right now and come to your guild hall you can cast chi and show me with your leet spamming skills how many CA's you get off in a minute, you will find out very fast the difference is nothing and not even close to worth missing auto attacks.  But hey you are the same guy that pretty much said he can't tank anything and can't do any good dps and got laughed out of the monk forum.</p>

[Mosha D'Khan]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span>well lets see with 1 sec i can get about 2 attacks off roughly. .3sec to cast each and with chi up it is like what .1 recovery. now with 2CA i get there damage and 2 knockouts off because it is per CA not attack. so over all i will do more damage. and with a 1.6sec delay on auto attack i can almost get 3 CAs off before it goes off so infact i do know my time btw. this is other procs not included also. so infact with the bards and chanters stuff i would end up doing way more damage. dont know how you figure i dont. this is not including procs off gear also because they proc off both</span></blockquote><p>First Knockout lasts 20 seconds, 2nd chi only lasts 30 seconds, 3rd what exactly will you be doing when you have blown your CA's off in the first 20 seconds you wont be spamming them anymore because they wont be up, this will especially become an issue after chi is burnt out so you will just be auto attacking.  But hey lets do this, I'll make an alt right now and come to your guild hall you can cast chi and show me with your leet spamming skills how many CA's you get off in a minute, you will find out very fast the difference is nothing and not even close to worth missing auto attacks.  But hey you are the same guy that pretty much said he can't tank anything and can't do any good dps and got laughed out of the monk forum.</p></blockquote><p>for you information after the first 20 sec they are still up. unlike you i did not waste AA for crane flock and went and got reuse time so i have them up for continuously for about 40 sec and with a 12% self increase time +what other give it is better than yours. giving me only 1 sec before more are up and i can start chaining them again. YOUR STRAT ON PLAYING A CLASS IS NOT THE ONLY ONE. and in the monk forum i did not complain about DPSing i complained about tanking group encounters, single mobs are easy and i can do it with out breaking a sweet. and if i remember correctly since you could not your were the only one trying to laugh at me in the monk forums, everyone else was not. but hey if you want to come to my guild hall be my guest just find somthing that last 1 min and bring it on over</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span >for you information after the first 20 sec they are still up. unlike you i did not waste AA for crane flock and went and got reuse time so i have them up for continuously for about 40 sec and with a 12% self increase time +what other give it is better than yours. giving me only 1 sec before more are up and i can start chaining them again. YOUR STRAT ON PLAYING A CLASS IS NOT THE ONLY ONE. and in the monk forum i did not complain about DPSing i complained about tanking group encounters, single mobs are easy and i can do it with out breaking a sweet. and if i remember correctly since you could not your were the only one trying to laugh at me in the monk forums, everyone else was not. but hey if you want to come to my guild hall be my guest just find somthing that last 1 min and bring it on over</span></blockquote><p>I would be happy to come and laugh at your attempts to spam ca DPS.  Fact is you have already proven you don't know what you are talking about and that you won't listen to better players.  With your horrible method you are probably losing an auto every 10 seconds which at an average of 12-15k damage per auto attack is huge on the big picture.  Now as far as questioning my AA's goes I quadruple your parses while also managing to be able to tank every mob in this game so keep talking because thats all you have you have nothing to back it up.</p><p>Ill take your offer for the guild hall it is very simple we pop a training dummy and you spam all you like for 1 minute, I am extremely confident the dummy will not die if you stay out of auto attack range and just use your CA's we can even add 1 CA to your total amount at the end since using dev fist would be detrimental to this test.  My guess is you probably end up with maybe 45 to 50 CA's in that minute if you are lucky which would be meh an extra 11k dps max hardly worth losting 6 auto attacks or 72k-90k total dps.  My guess would be you need probably 110 CA's in that 60 seconds to even come close to breaking even good luck with that.</p>

[Mosha D'Khan]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span>for you information after the first 20 sec they are still up. unlike you i did not waste AA for crane flock and went and got reuse time so i have them up for continuously for about 40 sec and with a 12% self increase time +what other give it is better than yours. giving me only 1 sec before more are up and i can start chaining them again. YOUR STRAT ON PLAYING A CLASS IS NOT THE ONLY ONE. and in the monk forum i did not complain about DPSing i complained about tanking group encounters, single mobs are easy and i can do it with out breaking a sweet. and if i remember correctly since you could not your were the only one trying to laugh at me in the monk forums, everyone else was not. but hey if you want to come to my guild hall be my guest just find somthing that last 1 min and bring it on over</span></blockquote><p>I would be happy to come and laugh at your attempts to spam ca DPS.  Fact is you have already proven you don't know what you are talking about and that you won't listen to better players.  With your horrible method you are probably losing an auto every 10 seconds which at an average of 12-15k damage per auto attack is huge on the big picture.  Now as far as questioning my AA's goes I quadruple your parses while also managing to be able to tank every mob in this game so keep talking because thats all you have you have nothing to back it up.</p><p>Ill take your offer for the guild hall it is very simple we pop a training dummy and you spam all you like for 1 minute, I am extremely confident the dummy will not die if you stay out of auto attack range and just use your CA's we can even add 1 CA to your total amount at the end since using dev fist would be detrimental to this test.  My guess is you probably end up with maybe 45 to 50 CA's in that minute if you are lucky which would be meh an extra 11k dps max hardly worth losting 6 auto attacks or 72k-90k total dps.  My guess would be you need probably 110 CA's in that 60 seconds to even come close to breaking even good luck with that.</p></blockquote><p>what are you smoking? 12k to 15k per auto attack. lets see that whould be doing what 3k per auto attack (3*4) most dont hit for 3k+ per auto attack bchizzle.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span >what are you smoking? 12k to 15k per auto attack. lets see that whould be doing what 3k per auto attack (3*4) most dont hit for 3k+ per auto attack bchizzle.</span></blockquote><p>If you are good enough to own this helm you are good enough to hit for 3k+ per auto attack and thats on the conservative side since its not counting flurrys.</p>

[Mosha D'Khan]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span>what are you smoking? 12k to 15k per auto attack. lets see that whould be doing what 3k per auto attack (3*4) most dont hit for 3k+ per auto attack bchizzle.</span></blockquote><p>If you are good enough to own this helm you are good enough to hit for 3k+ per auto attack and thats on the conservative side since its not counting flurrys.</p></blockquote><p>where all are you getting flurry bonus other than the dirge? and crane flock is only 16sec so it is not even for the whole min.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span >where all are you getting flurry bonus other than the dirge? and crane flock is only 16sec so it is not even for the whole min.</span></blockquote><p>Craneflock doesn't flurry.</p>

[Mosha D'Khan]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span>where all are you getting flurry bonus other than the dirge? and crane flock is only 16sec so it is not even for the whole min.</span></blockquote><p>Craneflock doesn't flurry.</p></blockquote><p>and you said you know what you are talking about. crane flock sets DA to 100% and then adds a AE effect that hits up to 4 targets with in auto attack range. so that being said it is a flurry effect.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span >and you said you know what you are talking about. crane flock sets DA to 100% and then adds a AE effect that hits up to 4 targets with in auto attack range. so that being said it is a flurry effect.</span></blockquote><p>That is an ae auto attack effect.  Are you trolling here or is it possible you are playing a different game then the rest of us.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span>for you information after the first 20 sec they are still up. unlike you i did not waste AA for crane flock and went and got reuse time so i have them up for continuously for about 40 sec and with a 12% self increase time +what other give it is better than yours. giving me only 1 sec before more are up and i can start chaining them again. YOUR STRAT ON PLAYING A CLASS IS NOT THE ONLY ONE. and in the monk forum i did not complain about DPSing i complained about tanking group encounters, single mobs are easy and i can do it with out breaking a sweet. and if i remember correctly since you could not your were the only one trying to laugh at me in the monk forums, everyone else was not. but hey if you want to come to my guild hall be my guest just find somthing that last 1 min and bring it on over</span></blockquote><p>I would be happy to come and laugh at your attempts to spam ca DPS.  Fact is you have already proven you don't know what you are talking about and that you won't listen to better players.  With your horrible method you are probably losing an auto every 10 seconds which at an average of 12-15k damage per auto attack is huge on the big picture.  Now as far as questioning my AA's goes I quadruple your parses while also managing to be able to tank every mob in this game so keep talking because thats all you have you have nothing to back it up.</p><p>Ill take your offer for the guild hall it is very simple we pop a training dummy and you spam all you like for 1 minute, I am extremely confident the dummy will not die if you stay out of auto attack range and just use your CA's we can even add 1 CA to your total amount at the end since using dev fist would be detrimental to this test.  My guess is you probably end up with maybe 45 to 50 CA's in that minute if you are lucky which would be meh an extra 11k dps max hardly worth losting 6 auto attacks or 72k-90k total dps.  My guess would be you need probably 110 CA's in that 60 seconds to even come close to breaking even good luck with that.</p></blockquote><p>Why does he have to stand out of auto attack range?  The fact is you will delay maybe 1 auto attack by spamming during rampage being up.  Nobody said you couldn't stand in auto attack range.  The fact is even if you are spamming CAs your auto attacks will slide in in between CAs which are fast casting.</p><p>Whatever though.  Its like arguing with a wall that spits crap out every once in a while.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Why does he have to stand out of auto attack range?  The fact is you will delay maybe 1 auto attack by spamming during rampage being up.  Nobody said you couldn't stand in auto attack range.  The fact is even if you are spamming CAs your auto attacks will slide in in between CAs which are fast casting.</p><p>Whatever though.  Its like arguing with a wall that spits crap out every once in a while.</p></blockquote><p>Wrong he will delay more then that.  Even with chi up he is still looking at .5 cast/recovery time with spamming unless he was absolutely perfect every single auto attack would be delayed and chi is only up for half of that minute.  The reason why he would stand out of auto attack range is so the dummy doesnt die even with his probably 5k dps if hes lucky on a training dummy it will still die in under a minute, the idea is to get 60 seconds of his best CA spamming skills.</p>

[Mosha D'Khan]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span>and you said you know what you are talking about. crane flock sets DA to 100% and then adds a AE effect that hits up to 4 targets with in auto attack range. so that being said it is a flurry effect.</span></blockquote><p>That is an ae auto attack effect.  Are you trolling here or is it possible you are playing a different game then the rest of us.</p></blockquote><p>then what is you definition of a flurry?</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span >then what is you definition of a flurry?</span></blockquote><p>EQ2's definition of flurry is "target has a x% chance of having their primary weapon's AutoAttack strike the target multiple times."</p>

[Landiin]

Doesn't multiple mean more then once? So if u have 100% DA your auto attack hits the mob multiple times so I guess that is basically a flurry by your definition.. I know just saying .. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Boli32]

<p>Flurry = something akin to:</p><p>5% chance to flurry</p><p>Your primary weapon will then hit the target again</p><p>there is then a 50% chance the weapon will hit the target again</p><p>there is then a 50% chance the weapon will hit the target again</p><p>there is then a 50% chance the weapon will hit the target again</p><p>there is then a 50% chance the weapon will hit the target again</p><p>there is then a 50% chance the weapon will hit the target again</p><p>there is then a 50% chance the weapon will hit the target again</p><p>etc.</p><p>Even if one of these misses you'll still have a chance to flurry to the next; so you could do anythgin from a single to multiple flurries making it the single most powerful weapon damage multiplier in the game.</p><p>At least that's myt take on how an "autoattack flurry" works.</p><p>Anyways... back to the orginal post... tbh comparing and contrasting these procs is totally meaningless. The brawler allows spike damage and is independant of other people. The helm is a proc but its damage is relative to how many others in the group/raid are hitting the mob so whilst its potential is quite high the actual dps resulting from it varies tremendosly.</p><p>How about we all just go away thinking that "hey these are two different procs and they have their own own use" instead of ego tripping to find which one is better or worse... they are just "different".</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Doesn't multiple mean more then once? So if u have 100% DA your auto attack hits the mob multiple times so I guess that is basically a flurry by your definition.. I know just saying .. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote><p>No a double attack is a different thing then a flurry, they are as different as a parry or dodge in the end they both do dps but they aren't the same mechanic.</p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Doesn't multiple mean more then once? So if u have 100% DA your auto attack hits the mob multiple times so I guess that is basically a flurry by your definition.. I know just saying .. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote><p>No a double attack is a different thing then a flurry, they are as different as a parry or dodge in the end they both do dps but they aren't the same mechanic.</p></blockquote><p>You said flurry is a % chance from primary weapon to do multiple hits. Double attack is multiple hits so is it multiple hits or not? I'm just going off your def is all.</p>

[Ambrin]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span>what are you smoking? 12k to 15k per auto attack. lets see that whould be doing what 3k per auto attack (3*4) most dont hit for 3k+ per auto attack bchizzle.</span></blockquote><p>If you are good enough to own this helm you are good enough to hit for 3k+ per auto attack and thats on the conservative side since its not counting flurrys.</p></blockquote><p>Even with my garbage offhand and a crappy group setup for my guilds second Miragul run (troub, illy, warden, no IA, no +DPS buffs, using Temporal Bludgeon from that I acquired from Haladan during the run as an offhand) my average auto attack was around 2200 with the max just a bit shy of 4000. Keep in mind this is in Miragul's, including fights like Glaciactus where you are disarmed for a decent portion of the fight (my min hit zonewide is 168 damage). Considering my DPS mod was only around 70 in this group setup and my garbage offhand (the ones in palace haven't dropped yet) I have no problem believing an average auto attack round of ~16,000. I could even easily see auto attack rounds of ~22,000+ in the right group/gear setup before even considering procs that only proc off auto attacks.</p><p>So even assuming you used Chi + Knockout Combo + Rampage, does the extra damage added from these abilities make up the damage lost of even a single auto attack round? Let's say because you are killing Gozak for the helm that you are likely to have a decent gear/group setup and can therefore do a 16,000 auto attack round rather consistently. Even if we assume you only miss one auto attack for the duration of the buff, can you make up that 16,000 damage (excluding any auto attack only procs or the chance at a flurry) from combat art related procs alone? I would bet the best you could do is break even, *maybe* beat it by a small amount.</p><p>Now what happens if you miss 2 auto attacks? Suddenly you are 32,000 damage in the hole and I very much doubt you will ever make that back from the combat art procs alone.</p><p>Finally, if you are doing nothing but spamming CA's while you have all these buffs up you are going to be missing far more than one or two auto attacks and you are going to be losing massive amounts of damage. And before you try to say you are getting extra damage from CA's themselves, you would still likely need 3-4 of your hardest hitting CA's being fired off for their max damage to make up the damage of even one missed auto attack. In the Miragul run I described above I did have some of my CA's max hitting at around 5000-6500 damage with my max Five Rings at 10,000 damage and my Devastation fist at 16,000 damage, but the average hits of these CA's was much less, about 2/3 of the max hit in most cases.</p><p>There is just no possible way for spamming CA's to produce more DPS than timing your CA's with auto attacks unless you are horribly under geared (maybe RoK treasured would do it?).</p><p>Also, a note on hitting multiple CA's/per auto attack...</p><p>If you have max haste you will auto attack once per 1.5s. Most of our CA's have a 0.5 second casting time with a 0.5 second recovery time. The only way you could possibly hit 3 CA's/auto attack is if you had a 100% reduction to both your casting and recovery time. You would also need to be a computer because there is no way a human could time CA's with the level of precision needed to fire of those CA's without missing a single auto attack. Even to move to 2 CA's/auto attack you would need to get the total time it takes to use a CA down to 0.75 seconds. You can achieve this with Chi and the reuse buff from Baton Flurry, but you are back to having to be a computer with zero lag in order to actually pull this off without missing any auto attacks.</p><p>In summary, if you are a raiding brawler with good enough gear to kill Gozak / get the helm from him, than you are going to be well geared enough that you will lose DPS doing anything other than timing your CA's with your attacks at a rate of 1 CA per auto attack, even with all the procs that trigger of CA's that you could ever possibly acquire. This means that at the absolute maximum you can hit (60/1.5) = 40 CA's (assuming you have 1 off reuse for every round of auto attacks), and if the helm hits for its full ~1100 damage each round you will do (40*1100/60) = 733 DPS for the duration the helm is active.</p><p>Even if you assumed the helm hit higher and could actually do 800 DPS while active for the brawler, the longer the duration of the fight the worse the DPS on this helm gets (assuming that for the entire duration of the buff the brawler can hit exactly the max number of CA's theoretically possible, assuming perfect conditions such as no jousting, no deaths, etc):</p><p>1 min: 800 DPS</p><p>2 min: 400 DPS</p><p>3 min: 267 DPS</p><p>4 min: 200 DPS</p><p>5 min: 160 DPS</p><p>6 min: 267 DPS (you have used it twice as it has come off reuse)</p><p>7 min: 229 DPS</p><p>8 min: 200 DPS</p><p>9 min: 178 DPS</p><p>10 min: 160 DPS</p><p>11 min: 218 DPS (used it a third time)</p><p>As a previous poster has said, our helm is very nice for short duration fights and for burst DPS, so it is in fact a very useful item, but it is a different type of proc than one that can be maintained on the mob for an entire fight and do constant DPS. As can be seen from the table above even under perfect conditions this helm goes down in DPS very quickly as the duration of the fight is extended and that it will eventually end up in a range of 160-267 DPS for most (boss) fights in the game, but considering you have to joust AE's and deal with other things, for most fights the helm will parse considerably lower. I would say that in all likely hood the plate helm produces better sustained DPS while the brawler helm produces better burst DPS. Overall, I think these two helms are fairly equal once you consider that they are different procs with different uses.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Doesn't multiple mean more then once? So if u have 100% DA your auto attack hits the mob multiple times so I guess that is basically a flurry by your definition.. I know just saying .. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote><p>No a double attack is a different thing then a flurry, they are as different as a parry or dodge in the end they both do dps but they aren't the same mechanic.</p></blockquote><p>You said flurry is a % chance from primary weapon to do multiple hits. Double attack is multiple hits so is it multiple hits or not? I'm just going off your def is all.</p></blockquote><p>No, I gave you EQ2's definition of a flurry.  I didn't at all break down the differences between the two because this thread isn't called "What are the differences between flurry and double attack?" if you need to be explained the differences I suggest you start your own thread this one is about pointing out how horribly wrong Bruener is.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p>This thread is quite probably the biggest wall of fail I've seen on these boards in a long while.</p>

[jrolla777]

<p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Doesn't multiple mean more then once? So if u have 100% DA your auto attack hits the mob multiple times so I guess that is basically a flurry by your definition.. I know just saying .. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote><p>Thats what a buff that gives you flurry says in its description. Bchizzle wasnt trying to explain the mechanics. But i hate to see people walking away from a thread confused or having misinformation, so  Ill try to break it down.</p><p>In one autoattack round:</p><p>you hit the mob (independent of flurry)</p><p>you doubleattack the mob (independent of flurry)</p><p>you have a % chance (depending on if you have the assassin myth, dirge BC, or anashti blessing) to the hit the mob again up to 4 or is it 5 times(i forget the exact amount)</p>

[jrolla777]

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This thread is quite probably the biggest wall of fail I've seen on these boards in a long while.</p></blockquote><p>actually i think its good for people who are vocal on these boards and other boards to discuss mechanics. if SOE isnt going to chime in, the masses need to hear the truth and stop passing misinformation.</p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>Mancy@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Doesn't multiple mean more then once? So if u have 100% DA your auto attack hits the mob multiple times so I guess that is basically a flurry by your definition.. I know just saying .. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote><p>Thats what a buff that gives you flurry says in its description. Bchizzle wasnt trying to explain the mechanics. But i hate to see people walking away from a thread confused or having misinformation, so  Ill try to break it down.</p><p>In one autoattack round:</p><p>you hit the mob (independent of flurry)</p><p>you doubleattack the mob (independent of flurry)</p><p>you have a % chance (depending on if you have the assassin myth, dirge BC, or anashti blessing) to the hit the mob again up to 4 or is it 5 times(i forget the exact amount)</p></blockquote><p>I can't do it any more.. You've ruint my fun!! I was just messing with Bc in the definition he gave (even if it is what is in game).</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I can't do it any more.. You've ruint my fun!! I was just messing with Bc in the definition he gave (even if it is what is in game).</p></blockquote><p>The problem is people like Mosha have trouble understanding these things and while you think you are being funny somehow all you are is just confusing him worse.</p>

[Mosha D'Khan]

<p><cite>Ambrin@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span>what are you smoking? 12k to 15k per auto attack. lets see that whould be doing what 3k per auto attack (3*4) most dont hit for 3k+ per auto attack bchizzle.</span></blockquote><p>If you are good enough to own this helm you are good enough to hit for 3k+ per auto attack and thats on the conservative side since its not counting flurrys.</p></blockquote><p>Even with my garbage offhand and a crappy group setup for my guilds second Miragul run (troub, illy, warden, no IA, no +DPS buffs, using Temporal Bludgeon from that I acquired from Haladan during the run as an offhand) my average auto attack was around 2200 with the max just a bit shy of 4000. Keep in mind this is in Miragul's, including fights like Glaciactus where you are disarmed for a decent portion of the fight (my min hit zonewide is 168 damage). Considering my DPS mod was only around 70 in this group setup and my garbage offhand (the ones in palace haven't dropped yet) I have no problem believing an average auto attack round of ~16,000. I could even easily see auto attack rounds of ~22,000+ in the right group/gear setup before even considering procs that only proc off auto attacks.</p><p>So even assuming you used Chi + Knockout Combo + Rampage, does the extra damage added from these abilities make up the damage lost of even a single auto attack round? Let's say because you are killing Gozak for the helm that you are likely to have a decent gear/group setup and can therefore do a 16,000 auto attack round rather consistently. Even if we assume you only miss one auto attack for the duration of the buff, can you make up that 16,000 damage (excluding any auto attack only procs or the chance at a flurry) from combat art related procs alone? I would bet the best you could do is break even, *maybe* beat it by a small amount.</p><p>Now what happens if you miss 2 auto attacks? Suddenly you are 32,000 damage in the hole and I very much doubt you will ever make that back from the combat art procs alone.</p><p>Finally, if you are doing nothing but spamming CA's while you have all these buffs up you are going to be missing far more than one or two auto attacks and you are going to be losing massive amounts of damage. And before you try to say you are getting extra damage from CA's themselves, you would still likely need 3-4 of your hardest hitting CA's being fired off for their max damage to make up the damage of even one missed auto attack. In the Miragul run I described above I did have some of my CA's max hitting at around 5000-6500 damage with my max Five Rings at 10,000 damage and my Devastation fist at 16,000 damage, but the average hits of these CA's was much less, about 2/3 of the max hit in most cases.</p><p>There is just no possible way for spamming CA's to produce more DPS than timing your CA's with auto attacks unless you are horribly under geared (maybe RoK treasured would do it?).</p><p>Also, a note on hitting multiple CA's/per auto attack...</p><p>If you have max haste you will auto attack once per 1.5s. Most of our CA's have a 0.5 second casting time with a 0.5 second recovery time. The only way you could possibly hit 3 CA's/auto attack is if you had a 100% reduction to both your casting and recovery time. You would also need to be a computer because there is no way a human could time CA's with the level of precision needed to fire of those CA's without missing a single auto attack. Even to move to 2 CA's/auto attack you would need to get the total time it takes to use a CA down to 0.75 seconds. You can achieve this with Chi and the reuse buff from Baton Flurry, but you are back to having to be a computer with zero lag in order to actually pull this off without missing any auto attacks.</p><p>In summary, if you are a raiding brawler with good enough gear to kill Gozak / get the helm from him, than you are going to be well geared enough that you will lose DPS doing anything other than timing your CA's with your attacks at a rate of 1 CA per auto attack, even with all the procs that trigger of CA's that you could ever possibly acquire. This means that at the absolute maximum you can hit (60/1.5) = 40 CA's (assuming you have 1 off reuse for every round of auto attacks), and if the helm hits for its full ~1100 damage each round you will do (40*1100/60) = 733 DPS for the duration the helm is active.</p><p>Even if you assumed the helm hit higher and could actually do 800 DPS while active for the brawler, the longer the duration of the fight the worse the DPS on this helm gets (assuming that for the entire duration of the buff the brawler can hit exactly the max number of CA's theoretically possible, assuming perfect conditions such as no jousting, no deaths, etc):</p><p>1 min: 800 DPS</p><p>2 min: 400 DPS</p><p>3 min: 267 DPS</p><p>4 min: 200 DPS</p><p>5 min: 160 DPS</p><p>6 min: 267 DPS (you have used it twice as it has come off reuse)</p><p>7 min: 229 DPS</p><p>8 min: 200 DPS</p><p>9 min: 178 DPS</p><p>10 min: 160 DPS</p><p>11 min: 218 DPS (used it a third time)</p><p>As a previous poster has said, our helm is very nice for short duration fights and for burst DPS, so it is in fact a very useful item, but it is a different type of proc than one that can be maintained on the mob for an entire fight and do constant DPS. As can be seen from the table above even under perfect conditions this helm goes down in DPS very quickly as the duration of the fight is extended and that it will eventually end up in a range of 160-267 DPS for most (boss) fights in the game, but considering you have to joust AE's and deal with other things, for most fights the helm will parse considerably lower. I would say that in all likely hood the plate helm produces better sustained DPS while the brawler helm produces better burst DPS. Overall, I think these two helms are fairly equal once you consider that they are different procs with different uses.</p></blockquote><p>you are just like bchizzle only worse. you dont miss and attack noob you only delay it so i dont miss a 16k damage i only delay it .1 sec. and if guys ever ever took the time to look at different set ups you would have known with baton flurry i get recovery to .38sec with a .48 cast time. with both that and chi up i get to a cast time of .25sec and recovery of .25 sec. meaning it takes .5 sec to cast a spell. also with a 1.5sec  auto attack. so 1.5 / .5 =3... meaning i get 3CAs off and just as the last one lands my auto attack goes off. and if you are not good enough to have a CA Queded and ready you dont know your CAs well enough to pick or you are stupid and cant get to them in time, or maybe you are not organized with your CAs which i dont think is the problem if you are raiding the content you are saying you are. so before you say that spamming is going to lower you dps, why dont you do your research before you tell people the wrong thing. (that includes you too bchizzle)</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span>you are just like bchizzle only worse. you dont miss and attack noob you only delay it so i dont miss a 16k damage i only delay it .1 sec. and if guys ever ever took the time to look at different set ups you would have known with baton flurry i get recovery to .38sec with a .48 cast time. with both that and chi up i get to a cast time of .25sec and recovery of .25 sec. meaning it takes .5 sec to cast a spell. also with a 1.5sec  auto attack. so 1.5 / .5 =3... meaning i get 3CAs off and just as the last one lands my auto attack goes off. and if you are not good enough to have a CA Queded and ready you dont know your CAs well enough to pick or you are stupid and cant get to them in time, or maybe you are not organized with your CAs which i dont think is the problem if you are raiding the content you are saying you are. so before you say that spamming is going to lower you dps, why dont you do your research before you tell people the wrong thing. (that includes you too bchizzle)</span></blockquote><p>Don't call names it isn't nice also when you can't even figure out the difference between a flurry and an ae auto attack it really doesn't sit well.  Like I said provide your server Ill come there and we'll time you for 60 seconds see how many CA's you can get off.</p><p>EDIT: BTW the way you describe how you do your attacks is the EXACT opposite of the most effective way to dps.</p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I can't do it any more.. You've ruint my fun!! I was just messing with Bc in the definition he gave (even if it is what is in game).</p></blockquote><p>The problem is people like Mosha have trouble understanding these things and while you think you are being funny somehow all you are is just confusing him worse.</p></blockquote><p>Where did I say I was being funny? I was having fun with you. You because people like you can't shut up even though they have proved a point you still think people care what you have to say.  So I like people like you that have easy buttons to push and can't help but not respond to even the dumbest of post.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I can't do it any more.. You've ruint my fun!! I was just messing with Bc in the definition he gave (even if it is what is in game).</p></blockquote><p>The problem is people like Mosha have trouble understanding these things and while you think you are being funny somehow all you are is just confusing him worse.</p></blockquote><p>Where did I say I was being funny? I was having fun with you. You because people like you can't shut up even though they have proved a point you still think people care what you have to say. You just like thinking you know more then every one else. So I like people like you that have easy buttons to push and can't help but not respond to even the dumbest of post.</p></blockquote><p>So you are a troll, grats on that it will probably be your lifes greatest accomplishment, I bet your parents are proud.</p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I can't do it any more.. You've ruint my fun!! I was just messing with Bc in the definition he gave (even if it is what is in game).</p></blockquote><p>The problem is people like Mosha have trouble understanding these things and while you think you are being funny somehow all you are is just confusing him worse.</p></blockquote><p>Where did I say I was being funny? I was having fun with you. You because people like you can't shut up even though they have proved a point you still think people care what you have to say. You just like thinking you know more then every one else. So I like people like you that have easy buttons to push and can't help but not respond to even the dumbest of post.</p></blockquote><p>So you are a troll, grats on that it will probably be your lifes greatest accomplishment, I bet your parents are proud.</p></blockquote><p>Oh we have resorted to insults now? We all know what it means when it comes down to personal insults.</p><p>I'm sorry I'll leave you alone to keep on repeating the same thing you have been for the last countless posts..</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Oh we have resorted to insults now? We all know what it means when it comes down to personal insults.</p><p>I'm sorry I'll leave you alone to keep on repeating the same thing you have been for the last countless posts..</p></blockquote><p>It isn't an insult, you just described yourself as the exact definition of a troll I was assuming you were proud of it.</p>

[Landiin]

<p>Derailed.. mission accomplished. Brawlers shouldn't be tank in the next exp. Comments?</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Derailed.. mission accomplished. Brawlers shouldn't be tank in the next exp. Comments?</p></blockquote><p>Wow you are delusional to think this thread is derailed from this little side conversation, the threads been over and done with since Bruener conceded he was wrong and stopped posting, now it is just Mosha being taught the basics of dps 101 which really has nothing to do with the original topic and you failing at trolling.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Derailed.. mission accomplished. Brawlers shouldn't be tank in the next exp. Comments?</p></blockquote><p>Wow you are delusional to think this thread is derailed from this little side conversation, the threads been over and done with since Bruener conceded he was wrong and stopped posting, now it is just Mosha being taught the basics of dps 101 which really has nothing to do with the original topic and you failing at trolling.</p></blockquote><p>I didn't concede anything.  It just happens that I heard from a littler birdy that the things that were wrong with this helm are going to be addressed.  Specifically the debuff stacking issue.  Don't worry, I'll be sure to post things when they hit the update notes.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Derailed.. mission accomplished. Brawlers shouldn't be tank in the next exp. Comments?</p></blockquote><p>Wow you are delusional to think this thread is derailed from this little side conversation, the threads been over and done with since Bruener conceded he was wrong and stopped posting, now it is just Mosha being taught the basics of dps 101 which really has nothing to do with the original topic and you failing at trolling.</p></blockquote><p>I didn't concede anything.  It just happens that I heard from a littler birdy that the things that were wrong with this helm are going to be addressed.  Specifically the debuff stacking issue.  Don't worry, I'll be sure to post things when they hit the update notes.</p></blockquote><p>Hopefully they lower the damage to 1/5th of what it is now then.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Derailed.. mission accomplished. Brawlers shouldn't be tank in the next exp. Comments?</p></blockquote><p>Wow you are delusional to think this thread is derailed from this little side conversation, the threads been over and done with since Bruener conceded he was wrong and stopped posting, now it is just Mosha being taught the basics of dps 101 which really has nothing to do with the original topic and you failing at trolling.</p></blockquote><p>I didn't concede anything.  It just happens that I heard from a littler birdy that the things that were wrong with this helm are going to be addressed.  Specifically the debuff stacking issue.  Don't worry, I'll be sure to post things when they hit the update notes.</p></blockquote><p>Hopefully they lower the damage to 1/5th of what it is now then.</p></blockquote><p>LoL......it burns doesn't it?</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>LoL......it burns doesn't it?</p></blockquote><p>The whole point of it being as OP as it was is because it didn't stack if a dev is dumb enough to listen to you grats to plate tanks everywhere I am not going to hate about it even if it isn't balanced.  Time and time again the devs have botched itemization it wouldn't surprise me to see them do it again which is why I can buy your little story.  Anyways I don't know why you would think I would burn about anything, more dps for my tanks doesn't hurt me in anyway.  I guess we will wait for the patch notes right?  But I bet you the proc gets nerfed not buffed if it starts stacking.</p><p>EDIT:  Get it?  It isnt a surprise to anyone that SOE would buff an already proven superior item and it doesn't change the argument you have only proven you can QQ alot.  It fits the pattern, plate tanks get more gear choices better gear choices etc it has always been like this it isn't a surprise anymore.  If they make this item stack they just made something that was already better even better.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>LoL......it burns doesn't it?</p></blockquote><p>The whole point of it being as OP as it was is because it didn't stack if a dev is dumb enough to listen to you grats to plate tanks everywhere I am not going to hate about it even if it isn't balanced.  Time and time again the devs have botched itemization it wouldn't surprise me to see them do it again which is why I can buy your little story.  Anyways I don't know why you would think I would burn about anything, more dps for my tanks doesn't hurt me in anyway.  I guess we will wait for the patch notes right?  But I bet you the proc gets nerfed not buffed if it starts stacking.</p></blockquote><p>The fact is you are wrong.  The proc is not OP'd and despite your amazing 49 sec parse the helm will hardly ever even break 100 DPS.  There is a reason that your plate tanks don't wear the helm which you mentioned earlier in the thread.  Furthermore, you are the one that had a problem with this entire thread.  I stated the problems with it specifically and offered some suggestions.  Its not my fault you came in here all on a high horse, swingin your [Removed for Content] around, having something to prove.  The fact is the proc debuff not stacking is broken.  That alone causes it to do low DPS most of the time.  But we will see.  Sorry that things once again just didn't work out the way you thought they would.  I am sure your ego will recover in a couple min.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>QQ b/c I need my ego stroked.</p></blockquote><p>Fixed.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>LoL......it burns doesn't it?</p></blockquote><p>The whole point of it being as OP as it was is because it didn't stack if a dev is dumb enough to listen to you grats to plate tanks everywhere I am not going to hate about it even if it isn't balanced.  Time and time again the devs have botched itemization it wouldn't surprise me to see them do it again which is why I can buy your little story.  Anyways I don't know why you would think I would burn about anything, more dps for my tanks doesn't hurt me in anyway.  I guess we will wait for the patch notes right?  But I bet you the proc gets nerfed not buffed if it starts stacking.</p></blockquote><p>The fact is you are wrong.  The proc is not OP'd and despite your amazing 49 sec parse the helm will hardly ever even break 100 DPS.  There is a reason that your plate tanks don't wear the helm which you mentioned earlier in the thread.  Furthermore, you are the one that had a problem with this entire thread.  I stated the problems with it specifically and offered some suggestions.  Its not my fault you came in here all on a high horse, swingin your [Removed for Content] around, having something to prove.  The fact is the proc debuff not stacking is broken.  That alone causes it to do low DPS most of the time.  But we will see.  Sorry that things once again just didn't work out the way you thought they would.  I am sure your ego will recover in a couple min.</p></blockquote><p>You have provided 0 evidence I have provided 2 back to back parses I ever provided a 5 minute fight with your helm doing more dps please stop talking all this nonsense you don't have a leg to stand on.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>LoL......it burns doesn't it?</p></blockquote><p>The whole point of it being as OP as it was is because it didn't stack if a dev is dumb enough to listen to you grats to plate tanks everywhere I am not going to hate about it even if it isn't balanced.  Time and time again the devs have botched itemization it wouldn't surprise me to see them do it again which is why I can buy your little story.  Anyways I don't know why you would think I would burn about anything, more dps for my tanks doesn't hurt me in anyway.  I guess we will wait for the patch notes right?  But I bet you the proc gets nerfed not buffed if it starts stacking.</p></blockquote><p>The fact is you are wrong.  The proc is not OP'd and despite your amazing 49 sec parse the helm will hardly ever even break 100 DPS.  There is a reason that your plate tanks don't wear the helm which you mentioned earlier in the thread.  Furthermore, you are the one that had a problem with this entire thread.  I stated the problems with it specifically and offered some suggestions.  Its not my fault you came in here all on a high horse, swingin your [Removed for Content] around, having something to prove.  The fact is the proc debuff not stacking is broken.  That alone causes it to do low DPS most of the time.  But we will see.  Sorry that things once again just didn't work out the way you thought they would.  I am sure your ego will recover in a couple min.</p></blockquote><p>You have provided 0 evidence I have provided 2 back to back parses I ever provided a 5 minute fight with your helm doing more dps please stop talking all this nonsense you don't have a leg to stand on.</p></blockquote><p>You provided 49 sec parses on the easiest x4 encounter in TSO.  Like I said its simple math, I could easily take my brawler and have him hit on a training dummy with his clicky activated and show the proc doing 1200+ damage.  But that isn't relevant and doesn't help anything.  I posted the numbers I see from this helm and just because it isn't in a little white box doesn't change the fact that they are accurate.  You lose.  You lost from the very beginning because all you do is jump into a thread looking for an argument.  I wonder what the next one will be, I am sure you are just sitting at your desk salivating waiting for somebody to post a legitimat post and you are right there ready to pounce like some deranged individual that has nothing better to do.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I got called out on my BS so bad I am now creating fake quotes as a desperate and completely fail last resort.  I like to make stuff up too the helm only parses 25 dps its true but I dont want to actually post a parse because MS paint is banned in the mental institution I play from.</p></blockquote><p>/yawn</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You provided 49 sec parses on the easiest x4 encounter in TSO.  Like I said its simple math, I could easily take my brawler and have him hit on a training dummy with his clicky activated and show the proc doing 1200+ damage.  But that isn't relevant and doesn't help anything.  I posted the numbers I see from this helm and just because it isn't in a little white box doesn't change the fact that they are accurate.  You lose.  You lost from the very beginning because all you do is jump into a thread looking for an argument.  I wonder what the next one will be, I am sure you are just sitting at your desk salivating waiting for somebody to post a legitimat post and you are right there ready to pounce like some deranged individual that has nothing better to do.</p></blockquote><p>Qix Qix in Miraguls is the easiest encounter in TSO?  Cause there goes your whole easiest encounter angle.  Please post your brawlers dps on a training dummy I could use the laugh.  1200 dps riiiight, back up you claim already.  Fact is you haven't posted ANYTHING all you have done is run your mouth I am not sure any of your parses are legit I think you are just making it up and I doubt you will post an actual legitimate parse ever.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I kill kittens because it makes me feel better about myself.</p></blockquote><p>Yep, like I said deranged.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yep, like I said deranged.</p></blockquote><p>Still waiting for your proof?  We will never see it though.  Enjoy your rubber room tonight.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You provided 49 sec parses on the easiest x4 encounter in TSO.  Like I said its simple math, I could easily take my brawler and have him hit on a training dummy with his clicky activated and show the proc doing 1200+ damage.  But that isn't relevant and doesn't help anything.  I posted the numbers I see from this helm and just because it isn't in a little white box doesn't change the fact that they are accurate.  You lose.  You lost from the very beginning because all you do is jump into a thread looking for an argument.  I wonder what the next one will be, I am sure you are just sitting at your desk salivating waiting for somebody to post a legitimat post and you are right there ready to pounce like some deranged individual that has nothing better to do.</p></blockquote><p>Qix Qix in Miraguls is the easiest encounter in TSO?  Cause there goes your whole easiest encounter angle.  Please post your brawlers dps on a training dummy I could use the laugh.  1200 dps riiiight, back up you claim already.  Fact is you haven't posted ANYTHING all you have done is run your mouth I am not sure any of your parses are legit I think you are just making it up and I doubt you will post an actual legitimate parse ever.</p></blockquote><p>Sorry you fail at Qix Qix.  The fact is rampage does a lot more DPS most of the time.  Oh and it stacks in raids AND it isn't hinged on your raids DPS as a whole to do better.</p><p>You can think all you want, but the fact is the numbers are there.  Just like you can go onto flames and check out parses in the SK and Paladin forums that show Bludgeon doing low DPS.  In fact, so low that usually it is not even showing up on the main page of damage break down.</p><p>Do you fail at life as bad as you do on the forums?</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sorry you fail at Qix Qix.  The fact is rampage does a lot more DPS most of the time.  Oh and it stacks in raids AND it isn't hinged on your raids DPS as a whole to do better.</p><p>You can think all you want, but the fact is the numbers are there.  Just like you can go onto flames and check out parses in the SK and Paladin forums that show Bludgeon doing low DPS.  In fact, so low that usually it is not even showing up on the main page of damage break down.</p><p>Do you fail at life as bad as you do on the forums?</p></blockquote><p>Yes I out parse you on Qix Qix as a single target tank and fail.  Where does that put you again?  Oh thats right in fantasy land talking about fantasy numbers.</p>

[perkins007]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span>you are just like bchizzle only worse. you dont miss and attack noob you only delay it so i dont miss a 16k damage i only delay it .1 sec. and if guys ever ever took the time to look at different set ups you would have known with baton flurry i get recovery to .38sec with a .48 cast time. with both that and chi up i get to a cast time of .25sec and recovery of .25 sec. meaning it takes .5 sec to cast a spell. also with a 1.5sec  auto attack. so 1.5 / .5 =3... meaning i get 3CAs off and just as the last one lands my auto attack goes off. and if you are not good enough to have a CA Queded and ready you dont know your CAs well enough to pick or you are stupid and cant get to them in time, or maybe you are not organized with your CAs which i dont think is the problem if you are raiding the content you are saying you are. so before you say that spamming is going to lower you dps, why dont you do your research before you tell people the wrong thing. (that includes you too bchizzle)</span></blockquote><p>Don't call names it isn't nice also when you can't even figure out the difference between a flurry and an ae auto attack it really doesn't sit well.  Like I said provide your server Ill come there and we'll time you for 60 seconds see how many CA's you can get off.</p><p>EDIT: BTW the way you describe how you do your attacks is the EXACT opposite of the most effective way to dps.</p></blockquote><p>Bchizzle is right. You do delay your auto atks which means you do loose dps. You can only queve up 1 auto atk. Which gets delayed as you cast. When you finish casting, your queved auto atk fires. Then it starts the timer for your next auto atk. In other words you loose the time. You can easily test this by casting a 30 sec item and turning on auto atk. In theory you should auto atk at least 10 times when you finish casting but it will only fire off 1 auto atk as soon as you are done casting. By delaying auto atks you are still loosing dps and auto atks.</p><p>Also i find it funny how no one could provide a single parse showing the brawlers proc doing more damage then the plate version.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Crimsonblade@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Bchizzle is right. You do delay your auto atks which means you do loose dps. You can only queve up 1 auto atk. Which gets delayed as you cast. When you finish casting, your queved auto atk fires. Then it starts the timer for your next auto atk. In other words you loose the time. You can easily test this by casting a 30 sec item and turning on auto atk. In theory you should auto atk at least 10 times when you finish casting but it will only fire off 1 auto atk as soon as you are done casting. By delaying auto atks you are still loosing dps and auto atks.</p><p>Also i find it funny how no one could provide a single parse showing the brawlers proc doing more damage then the plate version.</p></blockquote><p>I have tried to help this guy before he just doesn't listen, good luck with it.</p><p>As far as the helms go the brawler one is good because of the heal and thats mostly in solo situations.  Raidwise the proc helps brawlers with AE dps which we need the help, but straight DPS wise the plate one is far superior.</p>

[Mosha D'Khan]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Derailed.. mission accomplished. Brawlers shouldn't be tank in the next exp. Comments?</p></blockquote><p>Wow you are delusional to think this thread is derailed from this little side conversation, the threads been over and done with since Bruener conceded he was wrong and stopped posting, now it is just Mosha being taught the basics of dps 101 which really has nothing to do with the original topic and you failing at trolling.</p></blockquote><p>i am still on topic you where the one who got it off. i was showing you how that i use CAs better than you and dont miss a auto attack. so congrats on being wrong and how about do a parse where you do dps with CAs like i can and then see how much the item does</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span >i am still on topic you where the one who got it off. i was showing you how that i use CAs better than you and dont miss a auto attack. so congrats on being wrong and how about do a parse where you do dps with CAs like i can and then see how much the item does</span></blockquote><p>You saying you are right doesn't make it so, I am in game right now I can be in your guildhall in less then 5 minutes and we can do your 60 second challenge.  It will be a valuable learning experience for you.  All you have to lose is 60 seconds of your time.</p>

[Mosha D'Khan]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Crimsonblade@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Bchizzle is right. You do delay your auto atks which means you do loose dps. You can only queve up 1 auto atk. Which gets delayed as you cast. When you finish casting, your queved auto atk fires. Then it starts the timer for your next auto atk. In other words you loose the time. You can easily test this by casting a 30 sec item and turning on auto atk. In theory you should auto atk at least 10 times when you finish casting but it will only fire off 1 auto atk as soon as you are done casting. By delaying auto atks you are still loosing dps and auto atks.</p><p>Also i find it funny how no one could provide a single parse showing the brawlers proc doing more damage then the plate version.</p></blockquote><p>I have tried to help this guy before he just doesn't listen, good luck with it.</p><p>As far as the helms go the brawler one is good because of the heal and thats mostly in solo situations.  Raidwise the proc helps brawlers with AE dps which we need the help, but straight DPS wise the plate one is far superior.</p></blockquote><p>you have not done $%^& for me btw bchizzle. your AA spec was #$%& and your advice was $#^ just like you. you apperently dont under stand that .5*3=1.5 and 1.5-1.5=0 which means i dont delay an auto attack at all during the time Chi is up. so please tell me how you helped me again, because all you have done is wine and cry about how things are not done your way</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span >you have not done $%^& for me btw bchizzle. your AA spec was #$%& and your advice was $#^ just like you. you apperently dont under stand that .5*3=1.5 and 1.5-1.5=0 which means i dont delay an auto attack at all during the time Chi is up. so please tell me how you helped me again, because all you have done is wine and cry about how things are not done your way</span></blockquote><p>Anyone else get a {0} when trying to quote this guy?</p><p>Mosha I am still waiting on your server and GH location.  BTW typing #%^$#%^# in place of what I would assume are bad words might make you feel like an internet tough guy but the rest of us just laugh.  And of course my AA spec wouldn't work for you when you haven't learned the importance of auto attack yet.</p>

[Mosha D'Khan]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span>you have not done $%^& for me btw bchizzle. your AA spec was #$%& and your advice was $#^ just like you. you apperently dont under stand that .5*3=1.5 and 1.5-1.5=0 which means i dont delay an auto attack at all during the time Chi is up. so please tell me how you helped me again, because all you have done is wine and cry about how things are not done your way</span></blockquote><p>Anyone else get a {0} when trying to quote this guy?</p><p>Mosha I am still waiting on your server and GH location.  BTW typing #%^$#%^# in place of what I would assume are bad words might make you feel like an internet tough guy but the rest of us just laugh.  And of course my AA spec wouldn't work for you when you haven't learned the importance of auto attack yet.</p></blockquote><p>cant type bad words $%^&. if you know everything you would have known that and your AA spec is worthless because decreased my dps and did not increase it at all. 16 sec of crane flock is JUNK!!!!</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span >cant type bad words $%^&. if you know everything you would have known that and your AA spec is worthless because decreased my dps and did not increase it at all. 16 sec of crane flock is JUNK!!!!</span></blockquote><p>Seriously what is up with the gaping <span >{0} when quoting you?  I mean I could make so many jokes about it if this wasnt a PG site, did you [Removed for Content] off someone that runs these forums?</span></p><p>As far as 16 secs of craneflock goes, four 4-5k ae auto attacks 10 times every couple of minutes is more dps then you will ever see out of 30 seconds of chi, but hey argue all you want there isn't a brawler worldwide that can touch the parses I put up including you.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>{0}</blockquote><p>BTW if someone wants to look into this above is exactly what happens when I try and quote this guy.</p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span ><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span>you have not done $%^& for me btw bchizzle. your AA spec was #$%& and your advice was $#^ just like you. you apperently dont under stand that .5*3=1.5 and 1.5-1.5=0 which means i dont delay an auto attack at all during the time Chi is up. so please tell me how you helped me again, because all you have done is wine and cry about how things are not done your way</span></blockquote><p>Anyone else get a {0} when trying to quote this guy?</p><p>Mosha I am still waiting on your server and GH location.  BTW typing #%^$#%^# in place of what I would assume are bad words might make you feel like an internet tough guy but the rest of us just laugh.  And of course my AA spec wouldn't work for you when you haven't learned the importance of auto attack yet.</p></blockquote><p>cant type bad words $%^&. if you know everything you would have known that and your AA spec is worthless because decreased my dps and did not increase it at all. 16 sec of crane flock is JUNK!!!!</p></span></blockquote><p>Nope I can quote him just fine. You'll learn how to work forums software someday I am sure.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Toran@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span>you have not done $%^& for me btw bchizzle. your AA spec was #$%& and your advice was $#^ just like you. you apperently dont under stand that .5*3=1.5 and 1.5-1.5=0 which means i dont delay an auto attack at all during the time Chi is up. so please tell me how you helped me again, because all you have done is wine and cry about how things are not done your way</span></blockquote><p>Anyone else get a {0} when trying to quote this guy?</p><p>Mosha I am still waiting on your server and GH location.  BTW typing #%^$#%^# in place of what I would assume are bad words might make you feel like an internet tough guy but the rest of us just laugh.  And of course my AA spec wouldn't work for you when you haven't learned the importance of auto attack yet.</p></blockquote><p>cant type bad words $%^&. if you know everything you would have known that and your AA spec is worthless because decreased my dps and did not increase it at all. 16 sec of crane flock is JUNK!!!!</p></span></blockquote><p>Nope I can quote him just fine. You'll learn how to work forums software someday I am sure.</p></blockquote><p>Good job trollboy!</p>

[Kiara]

<p>Alrighty guys.</p><p>You know the rules <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Gotta play nice and not feed the trolls, lest they get chubby.</p><p>Having nice polite discussions are terrific and debate is even better!  However when things devolve to the level of cranky name calling and symbols in the place of profanity, it's time for the discussion to stop.</p><p>Thanks all!</p>