***'Dal

[Verrie77]

<p>What kinds of diffrent ***'Dals do we have in this game..would be nice to collect them inone spot...and also what are they...I know they are elves..but dont cant remember exactly what type is what...and if there are more out there.</p><p><span style="color: #ffcc00;">Koada'DalTeir' Dal</span></p><p>and so on...</p>

[Xalmat]

<p><a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Dal" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Dal</a></p><p>Koada'Dal - High Elf</p><p>Renda'Dal - New Tunarean</p><p>Fier'Dal - Wood Elf</p><p>Tier'Dal - Dark Elf</p><p>Sul'Dal - "Desert" Elf</p><p>Ayr'Dal - Half Elf</p><p>Myr'Dal - "Underground" Elf</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sul'Dal - "Desert" Elf</p><p>Myr'Dal - "Underground" Elf</p></blockquote><p>Sul still leads more to the fact that they worship Anashti Sul and are quite Undead, to me. I think Sul means Eternal.</p><p>The Myr'Dal are more like abominations who want to be left alone after Mistmoore created them. Undergound could be an appropriate word, but they're also found on an exile island in New Tunaria, so....</p><p>I wish we could get a confirmation on what Sul and Myr means.</p><p>And then there's the Ara'Dal who exist in one of the 4 courts in Living Tombs.</p>

[Obzidian]

<p><span><p>Ara'Dal -- found in Living Tombs, probably a social class related distinction</p><p>Ayr'Dal-- half elves</p><p>Feir'Dal -- wood elves</p><p>Koada'Dal  -- high elves</p><p>Myr'Dal  -- found in mistmoor catacombs</p><p>Renda'Dal -- the "pure" elves found in New Tunaria</p><p>Rin'Dal -- found in Living Tombs, <span>probably a social class related distinction</span></p><p>Rowen'Dal -- "Rowen" seems to translate to "Royal" elves, so elves of royal bloodlines, fair warning, from EQOA</p><p>Shenba'Dal -- wandering/gypsy elves found in the EQ RPG</p><p>Sul'Dal -- Sul still remains a mystery, but is associated with Undeath.  Elves that are associated with Anashti'Sul basically, like Rin'Dal and Ara'Dal, probably related to social class</p><p>Teir'Dal -- modern Dark elves, "Elves of the Abyss" a la everquest2.com</p><p>Y'Dal -- original dark elves</p><p>Edit:  Added the note about the meaning of Teir</p></span></p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>Obzidian wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span><p>Ara'Dal -- found in Living Tombs, probably a social class related distinction</p><p>Ayr'Dal-- half elves</p><p>Feir'Dal -- wood elves</p><p>Koada'Dal  -- high elves</p><p>Myr'Dal  -- found in mistmoor catacombs</p><p>Renda'Dal -- the "pure" elves found in New Tunaria</p><p>Rin'Dal -- found in Living Tombs, <span>probably a social class related distinction</span></p><p>Rowen'Dal -- "Rowen" seems to translate to "Royal" elves, so elves of royal bloodlines, fair warning, from EQOA</p><p>Shenba'Dal -- wandering/gypsy elves found in the EQ RPG</p><p>Sul'Dal -- Sul still remains a mystery, but is associated with Undeath.  Elves that are associated with Anashti'Sul basically, like Rin'Dal and Ara'Dal, probably related to social class</p><p>Teir'Dal -- modern Dark elves</p><p>Y'Dal -- original dark elves</p></span></p></blockquote><p>Lets not call the Y'dal elves please. Unless someone out there can provide some lore to prove that Tunare created them, then they are NOT elves.</p><p>Tunare created the elves. She didn't copy someone else's work. They <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">are </span>were her greatest creation. The Tier'Dal were Inny's perversion of her race. Why the devs are creating another elf-like race that existed before elves were created is simply beyond me, but until we have more lore on this including Mayong's race in the list of elves is not only premature, but inappropriate.</p>

[Obzidian]

<p>They are Dal . . . Dal means elf.  Therefore, they are considered by Norrath's population as elves.  A creation mythos doesn't mean that something is or is not an elf.  Just because you view elves as being ONLY those races created by Tunare and their derivatives does not negate the fact that the Y'dal are elves.</p><p>Any god's creation of a race is a mythos, a mythology that is commonly accepted but not necessarily "THE TRUTH".  The whole problem with the idea of canon lore is that people tend to take a certain group/race's lore and present it as if its the be all end all truth of the game.  Unless it comes directly from a dev, that isn't so.  History (and that's what lore is) is full of differing tales.  We only think we know the truth about things in game, but all we have is what people recorded or chose to believe. Conflicting stories only serve to enrich the game and the reality it presents.</p><p>Furthermore, Tunare's creation of a certain type of elf does not proclude the existence or creation of other types of elves.  In addition, our history of all the races is limited.  It doesn't extend to the very beginning of that race's origin, just to how far back our records for that race go.  Some records are older than others.  Its why we can talk about the creation tales of dal, but say, not so much the trolls or ratonga. </p><p>Inclusion of Y'Dal into the listing of "dal" and classing it as an elf is entirely appropriate.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p><cite>Obzidian wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sul'Dal -- Sul still remains a mystery, but is associated with Undeath.  Elves that are associated with Anashti'Sul basically, like Rin'Dal and Ara'Dal, probably related to social class</p></blockquote><p>Weren't the Sul'Dal elves actively worshipping Anashti Sul before she got banished to the Void?</p>

[Banditman]

<p>Anashti was the Goddess of Health before she was banished . . . probably a lot more than just Elves worshipping her at that point.</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Anashti was the Goddess of Health before she was banished . . . probably a lot more than just Elves worshipping her at that point.</p></blockquote><p>Considering her name was Anashti Sul back then and still is now, I've always thought of it as a direct religious connection. Directly taking the "Sul" from her name and adapting it to the elven language to directly express the fact that they worship her.</p><p><cite>Obzidian wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They are Dal . . . Dal means elf.  Therefore, they are considered by Norrath's population as elves.  A creation mythos doesn't mean that something is or is not an elf.  Just because you view elves as being ONLY those races created by Tunare and their derivatives does not negate the fact that the Y'dal are elves.</p><p>Any god's creation of a race is a mythos, a mythology that is commonly accepted but not necessarily "THE TRUTH".  The whole problem with the idea of canon lore is that people tend to take a certain group/race's lore and present it as if its the be all end all truth of the game.  Unless it comes directly from a dev, that isn't so.  History (and that's what lore is) is full of differing tales.  We only think we know the truth about things in game, but all we have is what people recorded or chose to believe. Conflicting stories only serve to enrich the game and the reality it presents.</p><p>Furthermore, Tunare's creation of a certain type of elf does not proclude the existence or creation of other types of elves.  In addition, our history of all the races is limited.  It doesn't extend to the very beginning of that race's origin, just to how far back our records for that race go.  Some records are older than others.  Its why we can talk about the creation tales of dal, but say, not so much the trolls or ratonga. </p><p>Inclusion of Y'Dal into the listing of "dal" and classing it as an elf is entirely appropriate.</p></blockquote><p>I thought it was originally Ydal. Not Y'Dal, but Ydal. I haven't had a chance to look into the Mistmoore Catacombs quests too much, but when I first saw the word, it looked like Ydal, so an elven connection never occured to me. All other elven names clearly have the appostraphe seperating the first word from Dal.</p><p>All the same though, this is something just being written and introduced right now, so it goes without saying that we need more evidence to uncover the truth behind it.</p>

[Garnaf]

<p>Sul in elven (at least from what I gather) is "living".  As in the Ewer of Sul'Dae, which is, at least once in the peacock timeline, refered to as the Ewer of Living Water (granted Dae could be living as well, but somehow "Water Elves" makes less sense than "Living Elves" in this context).  In more modern elven a better translation would probably be "Everliving" or "undead".  but in context, Living makes sense.  (though as pointed out, Sul'Dal are simply Eldaar Elves that worshiped Anashti Sul)</p><p>I have nothing else to add to this conversation other than a question.  What's the original elven name for the Eldaar Elves?</p>

[Aurel]

<p>Incoming stupidness.  You all know I suck at lore and should never try.  (;</p><p>But this is something that I have always wondered...  Do we know for certain that the Ewer of Sul'Dae means the Ewer of Living Water?  Has that been stated or is that something we're assuming?  It's probably been stated so just cut me off right here.  My "always wondered" was what if Sul is just a reference to Anashti Sul?  So it'd be the Ewer of Anashti's Water?  and the Sul'Dal would be Anashti's Elves?  Or something.</p><p>Again, lore failure, right here, hiya.  Please /whap me gently!</p>

[Garnaf]

<p>I thought it was stated in the Peacock timeline when that guy sent you to retreve it, but it's been a LONG time since I did that part of the quest and I can't remember, but yea it's probably guesswork on some level to see what makes the most contextual sense.</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p><cite>Dranikos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I thought it was stated in the Peacock timeline when that guy sent you to retreve it, but it's been a LONG time since I did that part of the quest and I can't remember, but yea it's probably guesswork on some level to see what makes the most contextual sense.</p></blockquote><p>You know, now that you mention it, I think I remember hearing what it meant exactly as well. Either through the questline or through Vhalen.</p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>Obzidian wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They are Dal . . . Dal means elf.  Therefore, they are considered by Norrath's population as elves.  A creation mythos doesn't mean that something is or is not an elf.  Just because you view elves as being ONLY those races created by Tunare and their derivatives does not negate the fact that the Y'dal are elves.</p><p>Any god's creation of a race is a mythos, a mythology that is commonly accepted but not necessarily "THE TRUTH".  The whole problem with the idea of canon lore is that people tend to take a certain group/race's lore and present it as if its the be all end all truth of the game.  Unless it comes directly from a dev, that isn't so.  History (and that's what lore is) is full of differing tales.  We only think we know the truth about things in game, but all we have is what people recorded or chose to believe. Conflicting stories only serve to enrich the game and the reality it presents.</p><p>Furthermore, Tunare's creation of a certain type of elf does not proclude the existence or creation of other types of elves.  In addition, our history of all the races is limited.  It doesn't extend to the very beginning of that race's origin, just to how far back our records for that race go.  Some records are older than others.  Its why we can talk about the creation tales of dal, but say, not so much the trolls or ratonga. </p><p>Inclusion of Y'Dal into the listing of "dal" and classing it as an elf is entirely appropriate.</p></blockquote><p>And therapist consists of the words the and [Removed for Content]. The'[Removed for Content] should be its proper spelling then and all therapists should be suspects in sex crimes, right? Can you come up with one in-game source that spells Ydal with any punctuation marks in the name? I haven't seen one. While it is a reasonable assumption to make that the devs that came up with the Ydal name for Mayong's race wanted you to make the elf association, you'll also notice they didn't include the accent mark.</p><p>So, going by your argument would you say Veeshan exists or not? Other than the meer existance of dragons, we can't confirm the existance of Veeshan. She's never appeared. She has no direct influence on Norrath. She doesn't speak to even her own children. There exists a huge set of vallies and some ice with very strange properties that are reported to be her creation. But again, no real proof other than LORE to suggest that Veeshan actually exists.</p><p>So, no. Spelling Ydal with a ' in the middle is the inappropriate action, and including Y'dal in the list still seems hugely premature on anyone's part. Wait for a dev to further retcon the world until everything we "know" is wrong. Soon we'll know the Nameless.../sigh</p>

[Zabjade]

<p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Lera'Dal Frostfell Elves is unofficial and a tease to a DE Paladin on AB server Lera who always deny's that she is really a Frostfell Elf. </span></p>

[Lodrelhai]

<p>I would think the "Myr" of the Myr'Dal would refer to them being creations of Mayong.  There's a few items related to him which are called "myr" somethingorother, and isn't one of the Mistmoore TSO zones Mystmyr Manor?</p>

[Zin`Car]

<p>Ydal are not elves.  Teir`Dal are the original as well as ONLY dark elves in the game.  When you read the history of their creation, Tearis and Cristanos being the first, are called Teir`dal.  Being as they are <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">The FIRST</span> </strong>and were called <em>Teir`Dal</em> from their inception... there is no other race which can be even considered to be the first or called by any other name BUT Teir`Dal.</p><p>there is no apostrophe in Ydal... they aren't elves.  <a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Search?search=ydal&go=1" target="_blank"><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">Here's a cursory search on EQ2i about what is found for the Ydal</span></strong></a>.  Notice, no apostrophes.  so much fail... so little knowledge</p><p>Teir`dal is spelled E I, not the other way around.</p><p style="padding-left: 30px;"><span style="font-size: xx-small;"><span style="color: #99ccff;">Tier <span ><strong><em>–noun </em></strong></span></span></span><table ><tbody><tr><td width="35"><span style="color: #99ccff; font-size: xx-small;">1.</span></td><td><span style="color: #99ccff; font-size: xx-small;">one of a series of rows or ranks rising one behind or above another, as of seats in an amphitheater, boxes in a theater, guns in a man-of-war, or oars in an ancient galley.</span></td></tr></tbody></table><table ><tbody><tr><td width="35"><span style="color: #99ccff; font-size: xx-small;">2.</span></td><td><span style="color: #99ccff; font-size: xx-small;">one of a number of galleries, as in a theater.</span></td></tr></tbody></table><table ><tbody><tr><td width="35"><span style="color: #99ccff; font-size: xx-small;">3.</span></td><td><span style="font-size: xx-small;"><span style="color: #99ccff;">a layer; level; stratum: <span ><em>The wedding cake had six tiers. All three tiers of the firm's management now report to one director. </em></span></span></span></td></tr></tbody></table><table ><tbody><tr><td width="35"><span style="color: #99ccff; font-size: xx-small;">4.</span></td><td><span style="font-size: xx-small;"><span style="color: #99ccff;"><span ><span ><em>Australian</em></span>. </span>a mountain range.</span></span></td></tr></tbody></table></p><p>As you can see... their's nothing to do with elves in that definition at all... what-so-ever.  Rows of elves?  Levels of Elves?  Gun elves?  Oar Elves?  Layer elves?  Mountain range elves?</p><p>no.  and um.. no.  near as i can tell... no.  quite possibly... no. </p><p>Please remember to spell Teir`dal and their inferior cousins' name, Feir`dal correctly from here on out.  A side note, should you find it spelled I E in game, that is a typo, nothing more.  For every singular instance you find the typo, you will find 4 dozen correct spellings.</p><p>This has been a public service announcement.</p>

[Aurel]

<p>While yes, it is spelled Teir and not Tier, the real-world definition of a word has little to do with something in a fictional language.  d:  Teir has no definition that has anything to do with elves, y'know.</p><p>And please refrain from the tone used in your PSA; even if it wasn't directed at me, it's not very respectful, especially when we take into consideration your misuse of "their" in place of "there."  An honest mistake, but considering many people who spell it Tier'Dal are also making honest mistakes, it's somewhat hypocritical.  d;</p>

[Anestacia]

<p>With the update today on Test, we meet a High Elf who lived in Neriak (unharmed) who can translate the language of <strong>Dyth'Dal</strong>.  Any ideas on what this race could be?  Has it ever been mentioned before?</p>

[Windslasher]

<p>Dyth'dal is an ancient elven language, but it does not correspond to any separate or unknown race of elves. A few of the oldest elves might remember when it was spoken, but now only a few very accomplished scholars read and write it.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>How is it related to Akhetian or Elder Elvish/Elder Tier'Dal? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Powers]

<p><cite>Luinne@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Please remember to spell Teir`dal and their inferior cousins' name, Feir`dal correctly from here on out.</blockquote><p>You would do well to heed your own advice on the spelling of "Fier'Dal".</p><p>Powers  &8^]</p>

[Obzidian]

<p><cite>Luinne@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ydal are not elves.  Teir`Dal are the original as well as ONLY dark elves in the game.  When you read the history of their creation, Tearis and Cristanos being the first, are called Teir`dal.  Being as they are <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">The FIRST</span> </strong>and were called <em>Teir`Dal</em> from their inception... there is no other race which can be even considered to be the first or called by any other name BUT Teir`Dal.</p><p>there is no apostrophe in Ydal... they aren't elves.  <a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Search?search=ydal&go=1" target="_blank"><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">Here's a cursory search on EQ2i about what is found for the Ydal</span></strong></a>.  Notice, no apostrophes.  so much fail... so little knowledge</p></blockquote><p>Except here's direct in game evidence suggesting that the Ydal are elves.(Not my picture.  I decided to reuse others images since they provided them so kindly in various threads already in the lore forums).</p><p><img src="http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f52/darkmoon_legion/EQ2_001432-1.jpg" width="1022" height="779" /></p><p>Oh, and all those Ydal mobs in the Mistmoore instances?  They are ghosts (drop ghost L&L parts and everything), but their models are those of elves, specifically those similar to dark elves.  In fact, its almost as if they are dark elf models turned into ghosts, a fact supported by the fact that if you possess essence the mob and cast an illusion on it, you get a ghost of whatever race you illusioned it too.  They have pointy ears and everything.  Its uncanny, I tell you.</p><p>When I suggested that Ydal were elves, I was doing so given the information that I had that suggests that ydal predate the naming conventions of koada'dal, teir'dal, and feir'dal and all the other dal that came after it.  I suggest predating, given the information we have about the Ewer of Sul'Dae and Anashti'Sul.  While I originally used an apostrophe for Ydal by mistake, I am of the opinion that the current naming convention for elves is linguistically derived from a language wherein the apostrophe wasn't used (or wasn't used as predominantly) as a form of conjuction (as the apostrophe is used in current elven languages) making Ydal an elf (or the original elf) conotation.  It could also be that the ydal were the first race of elves and as such, no apostrophe was necessary and that the idea of dal with subtypes came later.</p><p>The fact of the matter is that if you want to define elves as only those creations made or derived from creations made by Tunare, then I can't convince you that Ydal are elves.  If you want to limit yourself to the lore that we've been given in the past (which is in itself limited), then I can't convince you that Ydal are elves.  The fact of the matter is, there IS lore AND evidence specifically naming the Ydal as elves.  Furthermore, our knowledge (including creation myths) is, as I mentioned previously, limited and finite, based upon what is commonly accepted.  There are different accounts amongst different races and even those accounts can shift based upon who is in power.  There's already evidence of dark elf leadership that predates or conflicts with the Thexian dynasty. Conflicting truths already exist in in game and out of game sources (and aren't really "inconsistencies" so much as they are different histories).  People can say Ydal aren't elves but there is in game source material that says they are, making them fully, completely and appropriately discussed as an elf in a discussion of what elves exist(ed) in Norrath.  There's a lot of evidence suggesting that the pieces we have had up until now are only tiny parts of the story.  There's certainly a plethora of information about Norrath's history that we don't know and only have the tiniest bits of information about.</p><p>I don't understand all this fighting against including Ydal into the category of elves and I certainly don't understand the level of condescension in this thread against those of us who do incude them there.  Growing information, though different from what has been commonly accepted, only enriches the world.  Information about Mistmoore and the Ydal is incredibly interesting and helpful to figuring out the history of Norrath and what's going on now. </p><p>Basically, if you don't think the Ydal are elves, fine and dandy.  However, please do not act like those of us who do include them in the category of elves are somehow unintelligent for doing so.  Just as those of you who don't think they are have evidence that is conclusive to you about them not being elves, so do those of us who consider them elves have evidence that is conclusive to us. </p>

[Rezikai]

<p><cite>Obzidian wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>-text-pic-text- </blockquote><blockquote>There's already evidence of dark elf leadership that predates or conflicts with the Thexian dynasty.                   </blockquote><blockquote>-text-</blockquote><p>Indeed, Vhalen told us over 3 years ago about some of the power struggle among the Dark Elven provinces that predated the Thex dynasty, and we sat there and didnt really go into depth on it, possibly because he revealed this in the same post about the origin of the dolls of <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=187454�" target="_blank">Nyth</a> and with barely a second guess we let it drop, ...silly of us.</p><p>A theory I had was that Naythox when invading Faydwer was paying homage to his old dark elven hierarchy that are now all but nearly extinct, and was sending the dragoons to offer homage in that chest full of treasure we read about in the Raincaller HQ.</p><p>eh off the wall i know.. but our lack of investigation has only gave us the scraps we now try to piece together, seems we need to throw some more wild speculation around and see if we hit anything.</p>

[DukeOccam]

<p><cite>Obzidian wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I don't understand all this fighting against including Ydal into the category of elves and I certainly don't understand the level of condescension in this thread against those of us who do incude them there.  Growing information, though different from what has been commonly accepted, only enriches the world.  Information about Mistmoore and the Ydal is incredibly interesting and helpful to figuring out the history of Norrath and what's going on now.</blockquote><p>I think it's because until now, that in-game evidence hadn't been presented. It was someone saying "Ydal are elves" and other people saying "we don't know that for sure." Until now, I was on the side of those saying to hold off. It's not that we knew for a fact that they weren't, but we didn't know for a fact that they were, and so under those conditions it's perfectly reasonable to wait and gather more information before making it official.With this screenshot, though, I'd say it's pretty [Removed for Content] official.<em>The Ydal were the first dark elf race created in the Plane of Hate by the evil god, Innoruuk. The dark elves would be spawned from dark ancient rituals cast upon the product of a single drop of Innoruuk's blood, poured from the Ewer of Sul'Dae. These Ydal would share some of the powers and appearances of their deity. This is one of many talismans that represent their time of dominance!</em>It's in-game, verifiable evidence. I've been won over.</p>

[Wilde_Night]

<p>Note how it says "dark elf race", which in my mind makes them perhaps more like the Dark Elves of the Dragonlance world - outcasts thought evil, but not necessarily of black skin.  I suppose we'll have to wait for them to finish TSF and move onto the next expansion before we find out more.  It would explain too, with Mayong being the last, why vampires all look similar.  They perhaps not only undergo the transformation of undeath, they may be his way of trying to perpetuate his race.  It never sat right with me that they just don't look like pale versions of themselves.  The Mayong vampires all take on the same racial characteristics.</p><p>Which also brings up the questions:  What made them extinct?  Does it have to do with the fact that Innoruuk was not permitted to create his own race?  Which is why we always assumed that the Teir'dal were made in spite.  But perhaps they were also made to try to preserve his original creations.</p>

[Rezikai]

<p><cite>Aeviel@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Note how it says "dark elf race", which in my mind makes them perhaps more like the Dark Elves of the Dragonlance world - outcasts thought evil, but not necessarily of black skin.  I suppose we'll have to wait for them to finish TSF and move onto the next expansion before we find out more.  It would explain too, with Mayong being the last, why vampires all look similar.  They perhaps not only undergo the transformation of undeath, they may be his way of trying to perpetuate his race.  It never sat right with me that they just don't look like pale versions of themselves.  The Mayong vampires all take on the same racial characteristics.</p><p>Which also brings up the questions:  What made them extinct?  Does it have to do with the fact that Innoruuk was not permitted to create his own race?  Which is why we always assumed that the Teir'dal were made in spite.  But perhaps they were also made to try to preserve his original creations.</p></blockquote><p>This was something that i kind of wondered about myself. I remember reading about the creation story and the Thexian King and Queen, Naythox and Cristanos. There was a passage about an entire city created for a race that was not to be, or something like that. That part always set odd with me, Innoruuk was to father the race, but even with... generous timing... to colonize a city would be quite ahem.. tiring.</p>

[Obzidian]

<p>There's always been lots of tidbits, tiny pieces of archeological data, which pointed towards a dark elf empire that we never really heard much about.  It was never solidly in the lore, and yet there was evidence of it around.  I wouldn't be surprised if, with the ydal, we're being set up for lore which would synthesize all the dark elf lore we have, including beta lore (which, while wasn't the lore that went live, was lore that helped develop the game and thus had an impact on geography and zone and world design, which thereby incorporates them into future lore and world development).  Its like the Ydal fit in the puzzle to help make things make sense, including the whole chelsith symbol that is found all over the place, old elven ruins in places where the koada'dal empires never were, dark elf presences in places it would seem unlikely, etc. </p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>Obzidian wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Luinne@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ydal are not elves.  Teir`Dal are the original as well as ONLY dark elves in the game.  When you read the history of their creation, Tearis and Cristanos being the first, are called Teir`dal.  Being as they are <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">The FIRST</span> </strong>and were called <em>Teir`Dal</em> from their inception... there is no other race which can be even considered to be the first or called by any other name BUT Teir`Dal.</p><p>there is no apostrophe in Ydal... they aren't elves.  <a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Search?search=ydal&go=1" target="_blank"><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">Here's a cursory search on EQ2i about what is found for the Ydal</span></strong></a>.  Notice, no apostrophes.  so much fail... so little knowledge</p></blockquote><p>Except here's direct in game evidence suggesting that the Ydal are elves.(Not my picture.  I decided to reuse others images since they provided them so kindly in various threads already in the lore forums).</p><p>Oh, and all those Ydal mobs in the Mistmoore instances?  They are ghosts (drop ghost L&L parts and everything), but their models are those of elves, specifically those similar to dark elves.  In fact, its almost as if they are dark elf models turned into ghosts, a fact supported by the fact that if you possess essence the mob and cast an illusion on it, you get a ghost of whatever race you illusioned it too.  They have pointy ears and everything.  Its uncanny, I tell you.</p><p>When I suggested that Ydal were elves, I was doing so given the information that I had that suggests that ydal predate the naming conventions of koada'dal, teir'dal, and feir'dal and all the other dal that came after it.  I suggest predating, given the information we have about the Ewer of Sul'Dae and Anashti'Sul.  While I originally used an apostrophe for Ydal by mistake, I am of the opinion that the current naming convention for elves is linguistically derived from a language wherein the apostrophe wasn't used (or wasn't used as predominantly) as a form of conjuction (as the apostrophe is used in current elven languages) making Ydal an elf (or the original elf) conotation.  It could also be that the ydal were the first race of elves and as such, no apostrophe was necessary and that the idea of dal with subtypes came later.</p><p>The fact of the matter is that if you want to define elves as only those creations made or derived from creations made by Tunare, then I can't convince you that Ydal are elves.  If you want to limit yourself to the lore that we've been given in the past (which is in itself limited), then I can't convince you that Ydal are elves.  The fact of the matter is, there IS lore AND evidence specifically naming the Ydal as elves.  Furthermore, our knowledge (including creation myths) is, as I mentioned previously, limited and finite, based upon what is commonly accepted.  There are different accounts amongst different races and even those accounts can shift based upon who is in power.  There's already evidence of dark elf leadership that predates or conflicts with the Thexian dynasty. Conflicting truths already exist in in game and out of game sources (and aren't really "inconsistencies" so much as they are different histories).  People can say Ydal aren't elves but there is in game source material that says they are, making them fully, completely and appropriately discussed as an elf in a discussion of what elves exist(ed) in Norrath.  There's a lot of evidence suggesting that the pieces we have had up until now are only tiny parts of the story.  There's certainly a plethora of information about Norrath's history that we don't know and only have the tiniest bits of information about.</p><p>I don't understand all this fighting against including Ydal into the category of elves and I certainly don't understand the level of condescension in this thread against those of us who do incude them there.  Growing information, though different from what has been commonly accepted, only enriches the world.  Information about Mistmoore and the Ydal is incredibly interesting and helpful to figuring out the history of Norrath and what's going on now. </p><p>Basically, if you don't think the Ydal are elves, fine and dandy.  However, please do not act like those of us who do include them in the category of elves are somehow unintelligent for doing so.  Just as those of you who don't think they are have evidence that is conclusive to you about them not being elves, so do those of us who consider them elves have evidence that is conclusive to us. </p></blockquote><p>So the Ewer of Sul'Dae is suppose to be responsable for the creation of the Ydal race? How old is this race suppose to be? Veeshan lore states that dragons were the first race to walk Norrath. The Pathanon of Norrath Lore states the gods started placing races on Norrath in response to Veeshan's claim on Norrath and the placement of the First Brood. Mayong's own lore has him claim to have witnessed the birth of the First Brood. Dragon Lore places the only competition the First Brood faced was from the now extinct race of Leviathans which were described only as "great beasts". Anashti'Sul lore points to the Sul'Dal being her worshiping race that first received the Ewer of Sul'Dae. Note: the Sul'Dal are Elves that were living in Tunaria that turned away from the worship of Tunare to embrace Anashti'Sul and her promise of eternal life. When Solusek Ro smote Tunaria the Sul'Dal were "saved" by their goddess by being turned into undead.</p><p>So, for this to all make sense, the Ewer of Sul'Dae has to have existed before Veeshan laid claim to Norrath. Infact, Anashti'Sul and Innoruuk had to exist before the Pathenon turned its attention to Norrath. That means Anashti'Sul and Innoruuk existed in a time that could conceivably pre-date the existance of the rest of the Gods of Influence. Not only that, but Mayong's entire race would have to have gone extinct prior to the First Brood being planted. Since the Ewer is around, that also means undeath should exist at this point. This also means the Ewer made it to the Sul'Dal without any assistance from their goddess who was at the time trapped in the void with no way to communicate with them. It also means that Norrath went without a Prime Healer from pre-Veeshan to nearly EQ1 Live. Why even mention the title was passed on to Rodcet when it didn't exist for the entire existance of every intelligent race? Undead are now older creations than Dragons. Anashti'Sul's origional worshipers that she was trying to make immortal are now older than the dragons! Does this mean the Ydal are worshipers of Anashti'Sul? Did she create her own? Before this we always belived the Sul'Dal were her origional worshipers and she was banished after they became undead. There are races that predate the Leviathians and the Dragons, and Tunare and the High Elves are all liars who claim to have created the Elven race, which went extinct and was brought back by Tunare and the Tier'Dal are copies of Inny's first race made from Tunare's work? Why? Because Inny is too lazy to reclaim the Ewer? It didn't take us longer than a few quests to manage it back in DoF.</p><p>That brings up an even better question. If Inny has possession of the Ewer, doesn't than mean he got when Anashti'Sul was banished to the Void? She was banished for the creation of undeath. So, in effect, she had a worshiping race that she desired to make immortal before the creation of the Ydal!!! So who exactly were these worshipers, who pre-dated the dragons and Ydal, and what happen to them other than some of them becomming undead? I mean really...the implications are huge and a total retcon for almost all known creation lore.</p><p>Even better, you mean to say that there is an entire network of Ydal cities in the underdark that wern't overrun by thousands of years of Goblins, Dwarves, Kobolts, Ratonga, and Burnyai before the Tier'dal were created? Why? Because Inny cared so much about his lost race that he'd protect their sacred cities but wouldn't resurrect the race himself?</p><p>This Lore created far more headaches than its worth. This is a really, really bad example of new Devs trying to shoehorn in new Lore to explain old Lore which gets in the way of a whole lot of other lore. So, what do you want to belive? That all this is correct and now you don't know anything that happened in ages past and it all becomes suspect all the way from Veeshan to today, or that maybe all isn't as they collection peices seem to suggest?</p>

[Lodrelhai]

<p>One correction, which might clear up some of the conflicts in the godly timeline.  Per <a href="http://www.lorelibrary.com/?page=book&bid=107" target="_blank">The Tale of Ahket Aken</a>, the Sul'Dal were worshipping the forgotten, and they followed a prophet of oblivion who had the power of the nonexistant.  Sounds like Anashti Sul was already in the Void at that time, so the Sul'Dal were not her original worshippers.</p><p>Personally, I think there probably was life on Norrath before the First Brood.  I think that age before the First Brood were when Anashti brought undeath to Norrath, and was banished to the Void.  I think that was the age when mortals huddled in fear of the gods.  I think Inny did get a hold of the Ewer after Anashti was banished, and created the Ydal, of whom Mayong is one - maybe the last one.  And I think the Ydal did something big, something terrible, something that obliterated life on Norrath for a long, long time.  I think Veeshan came along later and transformed the world back into a habitable place.  And when the rest of the pantheon realized the world was habitable again, I think they barred Innoruuk from making a new race because of what the last race he created did.</p><p>After defeating Trak, a dark elf who hails Mayong will be told they remind him of himself - and he hopes, for the sake of Norrath, that their path does not follow his (one of these days I will find that screenshot someone posted on these boards again).  Also, the <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ym9hIEbnijw" target="_blank">original intro to EQLive</a> shows Norrath as a barren rock before Veeshan reshapes it.   A Norrath before our Norrath, where Anashti created undeath and Innoruuk made the Ydal who then destroyed the world, makes sense with what we know.</p>

[Rezikai]

<p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So the Ewer of Sul'Dae is suppose to be responsable for the creation of the Ydal race? How old is this race suppose to be? Veeshan lore states that dragons were the first race to walk Norrath. The Pathanon of Norrath Lore states the gods started placing races on Norrath in response to Veeshan's claim on Norrath and the placement of the First Brood.</p><p>Mayong's own lore has him claim to have witnessed the birth of the First Brood. <span style="color: #ff6600;">He does say he watched Veeshan's brood start i remember that but i think a misconception is that he was alone in watching it, he might have been part of his race that witnessed the beginging of Veeshans children, then again look at the source its Mayong, someone who does like to lie to make himself seem more powerfull/imporatant.</span></p><p>Dragon Lore places the only competition the First Brood faced was from the now extinct race of Leviathans which were described only as "great beasts". <span style="color: #ff6600;">Remember there was at least one other race that stood against the dragons, the stories from OolS talking about races that lived long ago like the Xulous proving there were indeed other early races on Norrath.</span></p><p>Anashti'Sul lore points to the Sul'Dal being her worshiping race that first received the Ewer of Sul'Dae. Note: the Sul'Dal are Elves that were living in Tunaria that turned away from the worship of Tunare to embrace Anashti'Sul and her promise of eternal life. When Solusek Ro smote Tunaria the Sul'Dal were "saved" by their goddess by being turned into undead.</p><p>So, for this to all make sense, the Ewer of Sul'Dae has to have existed before Veeshan laid claim to Norrath. Infact, Anashti'Sul and Innoruuk had to exist before the Pathenon turned its attention to Norrath. That means Anashti'Sul and Innoruuk existed in a time that could conceivably pre-date the existance of the rest of the Gods of Influence.Not only that, but Mayong's entire race would have to have gone extinct prior to the First Brood being planted. Since the Ewer is around, that also means undeath should exist at this point. <span style="color: #ff6600;">Not entirely, the race was created in the Plane of Hate, weather or not Anashti was banished yet, or that any other races existed yet on Norrath isnt stated. Inny could have obtained the Ewer early on in the Elddar Elves history. The First Dark elf race could still have been created after those elddar elves the only time snag is if we assume Mayong is one of these Ydal. The term Spawned, is odd to see, but eh.. </span></p><p>This also means the Ewer made it to the Sul'Dal without any assistance from their goddess who was at the time trapped in the void with no way to communicate with them. It also means that Norrath went without a Prime Healer from pre-Veeshan to nearly EQ1 Live.Why even mention the title was passed on to Rodcet when it didn't exist for the entire existance of every intelligent race? <span style="color: #ff6600;">I think the banishment happened after the creation of the Elddar elves, an assumption yes but one that im more willing to believe.</span> <span style="color: #ff6600;">We know that the Sul' Dal were alive in Akhet Aken after the Ewer had gotten into the hands of Malkonis D'Morte, how exactly he gained it i dont recall but he fled from Neriak with it as well as the other survivors of his houses destruction, and brought it back to them. </span></p><p>Undead are now older creations than Dragons. Anashti'Sul's origional worshipers that she was trying to make immortal are now older than the dragons! Does this mean the Ydal are worshipers of Anashti'Sul? Did she create her own? Before this we always belived the Sul'Dal were her origional worshipers and she was banished after they became undead. There are races that predate the Leviathians and the Dragons, and Tunare and the High Elves are all liars who claim to have created the Elven race, which went extinct and was brought back by Tunare and the Tier'Dal are copies of Inny's first race made from Tunare's work? Why? Because Inny is too lazy to reclaim the Ewer? It didn't take us longer than a few quests to manage it back in DoF. <span style="color: #ff6600;">The real issue i think is how/when Inny got ahold of the Ewer. As for the Sul'Dal I'm thinking the unleashing of Undeath wasn't total, nor widespread as a city full as we know before Anashti was banished. The Peacock line talks of Malkonis and the priestess having blood rituals killing many residents of the silent city which would mean they were still living and mortal after Malkonis had returned the Ewer. So I'm thinking Anashti was banished for unleashing undeath after the Elddar elves were established, but before Inny got ahold of it.</span></p><p>That brings up an even better question. If Inny has possession of the Ewer, doesn't than mean he got when Anashti'Sul was banished to the Void? She was banished for the creation of undeath. So, in effect, she had a worshiping race that she desired to make immortal before the creation of the Ydal!!! So who exactly were these worshipers, who pre-dated the dragons and Ydal, and what happen to them other than some of them becomming undead? I mean really...the implications are huge and a total retcon for almost all known creation lore. <span style="color: #ff6600;">Eh, i'm thinking it was after the banishment, yes, but the Elddar elves had been established. It's never said that the Ydal were on Norrath before the Elddar, just in the plane of hate.</span></p><p>Even better, you mean to say that there is an entire network of Ydal cities in the underdark that wern't overrun by thousands of years of Goblins, Dwarves, Kobolts, Ratonga, and Burnyai before the Tier'dal were created? Why? Because Inny cared so much about his lost race that he'd protect their sacred cities but wouldn't resurrect the race himself?</p><p>This Lore created far more headaches than its worth. This is a really, really bad example of new Devs trying to shoehorn in new Lore to explain old Lore which gets in the way of a whole lot of other lore. <span style="color: #ff6600;">Eh this i have to contest, Vhalen set up the guidelines and plot points for these devs for TsO so this was his to let out he's just not aroun to open the door. The actual existence of a forgotten race wasnt totally lost either, we knew they existed we knew the might have been an advanced civilization from the clues we were given, we just never knew the name/exact locals where.. perhaps Ydal was the name we were never given.</span></p><p>So, what do you want to belive? That all this is correct and now you don't know anything that happened in ages past and it all becomes suspect all the way from Veeshan to today, or that maybe all isn't as they collection peices seem to suggest?</p></blockquote><p>You bring up some nice points meirril, i am hoping the devs look at your timeframes to doublecheck and make sure the timelines are matching up correctly and we dont have any "oops" situations forming. The theory that the old beta lore was the Ydal race and that the old tale of Caer'thiel was that empire seems... odd.  However it wouldn't surprise me if the devs make it so when the Ydal race did leave the plane of hate were put on Faydwer. This would match up with Mistmoores presence there.</p><p>As for the whole "recognition and validation"of the beta lore as some have come to see it as,.. eh.. I do have an issue if thats what they are trying to do. Vhalen made the universal timeline for the everquest universe back in eq2's production, so if that is indeed what happened the devs know this already and have known it for some time. If infact its new devs coming to the team and deciding they "liked" the old beta lore better... well then its time to reconsider what i like to think is a good story... because changing the games fable on the whim of the new captains at the helm, is rather.. disturbing, I hope they aren't going that route tbh.</p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>One correction, which might clear up some of the conflicts in the godly timeline.  Per <a href="http://www.lorelibrary.com/?page=book&bid=107" target="_blank">The Tale of Ahket Aken</a>, the Sul'Dal were worshipping the forgotten, and they followed a prophet of oblivion who had the power of the nonexistant.  Sounds like Anashti Sul was already in the Void at that time, so the Sul'Dal were not her original worshippers.</p><p>Personally, I think there probably was life on Norrath before the First Brood.  I think that age before the First Brood were when Anashti brought undeath to Norrath, and was banished to the Void.  I think that was the age when mortals huddled in fear of the gods.  I think Inny did get a hold of the Ewer after Anashti was banished, and created the Ydal, of whom Mayong is one - maybe the last one.  And I think the Ydal did something big, something terrible, something that obliterated life on Norrath for a long, long time.  I think Veeshan came along later and transformed the world back into a habitable place.  And when the rest of the pantheon realized the world was habitable again, I think they barred Innoruuk from making a new race because of what the last race he created did.</p><p>After defeating Trak, a dark elf who hails Mayong will be told they remind him of himself - and he hopes, for the sake of Norrath, that their path does not follow his (one of these days I will find that screenshot someone posted on these boards again).  Also, the <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ym9hIEbnijw" target="_blank">original intro to EQLive</a> shows Norrath as a barren rock before Veeshan reshapes it.   A Norrath before our Norrath, where Anashti created undeath and Innoruuk made the Ydal who then destroyed the world, makes sense with what we know.</p></blockquote><p>Another part of the Tunare creation myth is that she created the plants and animals. In effect, before Tunare started creating life, the dragons were existing on a truely barren planet. The elves were the greatest of her creations, but far from being the only creation. It also explains why most of her guardians in EQ1 were animals, and not elves. They wern't talking animals either, just regular but powerful animals. The same creation story explains that Tunare also created Treants and other intelligent plant life.</p><p>All in all, everything in the Ydal history points to an entire history of Norrath before the existance of Veeshan which was the motive force behind everything the gods were created to take care of. I don't have a copy of the diety creation mythos in front of me, but I seem to remember a lot of the dieties were created in response to Veeshan's actions. Inny being one of the lowest class dieties (god of influence) he shouldn't have even existed before Veeshan came to Norrath because hate depends on the existance of intelligent beings to feel hatred. Even Cazic (who probably is the oldest <em>[edit] influence</em> diety) shouldn't have existed pre-Veehsan.</p>

[Lethe5683]

<p><cite>Verrie77 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What kinds of diffrent ***'Dals do we have in this game..would be nice to collect them inone spot...and also what are they...I know they are elves..but dont cant remember exactly what type is what...and if there are more out there.</p><p><span style="color: #ffcc00;">Koada'DalTeir' Dal</span></p><p>and so on...</p></blockquote><p>I hate elfs!</p>

[Hamervelder]

<p><cite>Obzidian wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Luinne@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ydal are not elves.  Teir`Dal are the original as well as ONLY dark elves in the game.  When you read the history of their creation, Tearis and Cristanos being the first, are called Teir`dal.  Being as they are <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">The FIRST</span> </strong>and were called <em>Teir`Dal</em> from their inception... there is no other race which can be even considered to be the first or called by any other name BUT Teir`Dal.</p><p>there is no apostrophe in Ydal... they aren't elves.  <a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Search?search=ydal&go=1" target="_blank"><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">Here's a cursory search on EQ2i about what is found for the Ydal</span></strong></a>.  Notice, no apostrophes.  so much fail... so little knowledge</p></blockquote><p>Except here's direct in game evidence suggesting that the Ydal are elves.(Not my picture.  I decided to reuse others images since they provided them so kindly in various threads already in the lore forums).</p><p><img src="http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f52/darkmoon_legion/EQ2_001432-1.jpg" width="1022" height="779" /></p><p>Oh, and all those Ydal mobs in the Mistmoore instances?  They are ghosts (drop ghost L&L parts and everything), but their models are those of elves, specifically those similar to dark elves.  In fact, its almost as if they are dark elf models turned into ghosts, a fact supported by the fact that if you possess essence the mob and cast an illusion on it, you get a ghost of whatever race you illusioned it too.  They have pointy ears and everything.  Its uncanny, I tell you.</p><p>When I suggested that Ydal were elves, I was doing so given the information that I had that suggests that ydal predate the naming conventions of koada'dal, teir'dal, and feir'dal and all the other dal that came after it.  I suggest predating, given the information we have about the Ewer of Sul'Dae and Anashti'Sul.  While I originally used an apostrophe for Ydal by mistake, I am of the opinion that the current naming convention for elves is linguistically derived from a language wherein the apostrophe wasn't used (or wasn't used as predominantly) as a form of conjuction (as the apostrophe is used in current elven languages) making Ydal an elf (or the original elf) conotation.  It could also be that the ydal were the first race of elves and as such, no apostrophe was necessary and that the idea of dal with subtypes came later.</p><p>The fact of the matter is that if you want to define elves as only those creations made or derived from creations made by Tunare, then I can't convince you that Ydal are elves.  If you want to limit yourself to the lore that we've been given in the past (which is in itself limited), then I can't convince you that Ydal are elves.  The fact of the matter is, there IS lore AND evidence specifically naming the Ydal as elves.  Furthermore, our knowledge (including creation myths) is, as I mentioned previously, limited and finite, based upon what is commonly accepted.  There are different accounts amongst different races and even those accounts can shift based upon who is in power.  There's already evidence of dark elf leadership that predates or conflicts with the Thexian dynasty. Conflicting truths already exist in in game and out of game sources (and aren't really "inconsistencies" so much as they are different histories).  People can say Ydal aren't elves but there is in game source material that says they are, making them fully, completely and appropriately discussed as an elf in a discussion of what elves exist(ed) in Norrath.  There's a lot of evidence suggesting that the pieces we have had up until now are only tiny parts of the story.  There's certainly a plethora of information about Norrath's history that we don't know and only have the tiniest bits of information about.</p><p>I don't understand all this fighting against including Ydal into the category of elves and I certainly don't understand the level of condescension in this thread against those of us who do incude them there.  Growing information, though different from what has been commonly accepted, only enriches the world.  Information about Mistmoore and the Ydal is incredibly interesting and helpful to figuring out the history of Norrath and what's going on now. </p><p>Basically, if you don't think the Ydal are elves, fine and dandy.  However, please do not act like those of us who do include them in the category of elves are somehow unintelligent for doing so.  Just as those of you who don't think they are have evidence that is conclusive to you about them not being elves, so do those of us who consider them elves have evidence that is conclusive to us. </p></blockquote><p>This was perhaps one of the best counterpoints that I've seen.  Well done.</p>

[Obzidian]

<p style="text-align: left;">Here is part of original history of Norrath story, a la the wayback machine which has archives of the EverQuest site from ages ago. Please note that nowhere does it say that there was nothing on Norrath before Veeshan, merely that she was the first of the pantheon to make stake a claim.  Furthermore, the story is framed as "it is said . . ." and "it is written. .  ." enforcing the idea of it as a mythos.<span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;"><strong><span style="color: #ffffff;">From the Dawn of Time to the Present Day: The History of Norrath</span></strong></span></p> <p><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">It is said that outside of space and time an entity known only as the Nameless exists, and that this being created all that there is and was and will be. It is also written in ancient texts that from His mind sprang not only the universe and its countless suns and worlds, but also a myriad of sentient, powerful, yet finite creatures whom one such as a man, or elf, or dwarf, would call a god.</span></p> <p><strong><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">In aeons past came one of these gods upon the world Norrath. Veeshan, Crystalline Dragon and ruler of the Plane of Sky, found this world pleasing and deposited her brood onto the frozen continent of Velious. With one swipe of her mighty claws, Veeshan opened several great wounds upon the surface of Norrath, staking her claim to this promising new world. Dragons then walked the land and flew the skies, powerful beings of great intellect, wisdom, and strength. Thus began the Age of Scale.</span></strong></p> <p><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">In time the other gods noticed Veeshan's work, and being often petty and jealous beings, they too came upon Norrath, intent upon leaving their mark. Brell Serilis was first, and from his Plane of Underfoot, a dark realm of vast caves and endless tunnels, he quietly created a magical portal to a cavern deep in the belly of Norrath. Through this portal the Duke of Underfoot seeded the depths of Norrath with all manner of creatures. Brell then returned home, sealing his portal within a labyrinthine chamber of mystical Living Stone. </span></p> <p><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">And when the other gods came to Norrath, Brell Serilis approached each of them, and after some time convinced them to meet as one to discuss the fate of the world. The Great Mother Tunare, and Prexus, The Oceanlord were in attendance, and Rallos Zek, the warlord, was also there, yet in mistrust kept his distance. Brell, carefully avoiding all queries as to the origins of his information, told of Veeshan's discovery of the new and potentially powerful world in which she had deposited her brood. Words befit of the King of Thieves poured forth from Brell's lips and he proposed that they accept an alliance of sorts, to which all save Rallos Zek agreed, ignorant of the fact that Brell had already released some of his creations into the Underfoot of this new world. The planet that would be called Norrath was divvied up between these beings of power for the purpose of keeping the Wurmqueen in check. Each would create a race of beings to watch over Norrath and keep a vigilant eye on the schemes of Dragonkind. Brell claimed the bowels of the planet and created the Dwarves, stout and strong, deep beneath the mountains of Norrath. In the abysmal depths of the oceans Prexus left his children, the Kedge, hearty aquatic beings of great mental power and stamina. And on the surface of Norrath did Tunare create the Elves, creatures of limitless grace and beauty, and Rallos Zek the Giants, fierce and formidable beings, intent upon the defense of their lands. Thus began the Elder Age. </span></p> <p><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">It was inevitable that such energies involved in seeding planets with life would attract even more of the gods, and it was the Elves who drew the unwanted attention of Innoruuk, Prince of Hate. In a decrepit tower overlooking the dark decaying alleys of the Plane over which he ruled, Innoruuk waited, stoking the fire of his Hate until it was a raging inferno. He cursed his fellow gods for not including him in their pact and vowed to make them regret such disrespect. From the halls of the Elves' fair city, Takish-Hiz, the Prince of Hate snatched away the first Elven King and Queen. In his realm of pain and anger he slowly tore them apart, physically and mentally, over the course of three hundred years. He then gathered the quivering remnants of these beings of light and rebuilt them into his own dark sadistic image, a twisted mockery of Tunare's noble children. In depositing the Teir'Dal, as Innoruuk's Dark Elven creations would come to be called, back into the Underfoot of Norrath, the seeds for The Prince of Hate's final revenge were sown.</span></p> <p><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">Fizzlethorpe Bristlebane and Cazic-Thule came next to Norrath, and Brell met them, concocting a second pact with these latter gods, wishing another excuse to create more peoples into the world. Rallos Zek again watched from afar, determined to add to his creation as well, and this time Brell convinced the Warlord to join the pact, assuring him that it was indeed an appropriate time to fulfill his desires. Deep in the earth did Brell return to create the gnomes, resembling dwarves to some extent, yet more wiry and gnarled, consumed with tinkering with devices more so than their cousins. On the surface, away from Elves and Giants, Bristlebane made the Halflings, short and stubby folk, agile and with a propensity to meddle and even pilfer at times. Cazic-Thule, Lord of Fear, was drawn to the swamps and jungles of Norrath and there created the green skinned Trolls and reptilian Lizard Men. And Rallos Zek returned to the surface, pleased with his sanction to create even more peoples for his army. He made then the Ogres, massive, unmovable beings of questionable intelligence, and the Orcs, bred for battle and singled-minded in their desire for conquest. </span></p> <p><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">By this time, those who are now known as the elder races of Norrath had begun to expand and mature. Villages became cities, and cities became kingdoms. Several of the races became bent on expansion and warfare became part of their developing cultures. And of all the races, it was the Ogres who quickly proved the most interested in battle and plunder, and their empire grew outward from their mountain home until it eventually encompassed a large portion of Tunaria, largest of the known continents. Their knowledge of magic grew as did their greed, until they became weary of only Norrath, and when they learned of other planes and dimensions, invaded the Plane of Earth itself. Rallos Zek watched with pride as his creations challenged the gods of that realm, and when they eventually knew defeat, the Warlord himself led a second invasion. The war that ensued shook the heavens and angered the greater gods. Through their combined might, Rallos Zek was finally thwarted and forced back to his domain, after which a great barrier to the Planes of Power was erected, denying entry to both the lesser gods and mortals as well. And then, in what some view as spite and others justice, the gods cursed the Warlord's creations. Thousands of Ogres were slain and their empire collapsed around them. The Giants were spread from one end of the earth to the other, forced to flee their homes as the gods brought snow and ice to their previously lush lands. And the goblins were also cursed, but no writings remain of their punishment as they no longer keep records of their history (which is perhaps some indication as to the severity of their curse). Thus began the Age of Monuments.</span></p> <p><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">As the dust settled, the last of the gods came to Norrath. Mithaniel Marr, god of Valor, and Erollisi Marr, goddess of Love, created the Barbarians, a hardy race who settled the cold and rugged northlands, near the ruins of the Giant empire. Being the youngest race, they were generally unwashed and rugged, possessing very few social graces. And while they too had a warlike culture, there were those amongst them who began to believe in something more. By this time the other civilizations of Norrath had either long since declined, or were well on their way, and this small minority of Barbarians saw an opportunity to triumph where the others had failed. Perhaps this was a seed of wisdom planted by the Marr Twins, or perhaps it was only by chance, but as the Barbarians spread out across the lands, warring with both each other and any other race encountered, this tiny movement continued to grow. And so even amidst desolation and war, there was hope. Thus began the Age of Blood.</span></p><p align="CENTER">__________________________________________________ ___________________________________________</p><p style="text-align: left;">I really don't see anything with the Ydal that conflict with timelines, just convolute them.  We know of several extinct or nearly extinct races whose histories don't fit neatly within the timelines created by the histories we know.  For instance, where do the Shissar fit in?  We know they existed, but what timeline?  How did they get here?  There are so many questions around them.  We know they were destroyed by the Greenmist and that they had Chelsith but there is little other information except that they had a major impact upon the world around us.  We could also talk about the Xulous, the Jal'Raeth, and Leviathans. And yet none of these races so far have been accused of breaking the timelines, of not making sense or anything else.  Why can we accept some races who have histories that don't fit neatly into what has been laid out in the past and not accept others? </p><p style="text-align: left;">Lets also talk about the fact that the original history of Norrath is obviously missing some information (as supported by its it is written and it is said lines which are manners of saying, "this isn't everything").  There's no mention of the first Lord of Death and Decay whom Bertox replaces (by the way, that lore was Vhalen period lore, supported by EQ live lore) or Anashti Sul (also lore being developed DURING not AFTER Vhalen's time).  Nor of course, the aforementioned extinct or nearly extinct races.  There's actually nothing that says that life didn't exist on Norrath before Veeshan put the dragons here.  Its just that of the gods that recovered recorded history mentions, she was the first to put minions down.  Its almost as if the dragons ruled during the Age of Scale and managed to control what history survived in the manner that all ruling empires try to control information.</p><p style="text-align: left;">Now, on to the lore of Anashti.  Anashti's first worship wasn't by the Sul'Dal.  The Sul'Dal started to worship her after her banishment and she did manage to communicate with them, specifically with her prophet through the void. All this info is revealed in the Deserts of Flame lore.  You can find it in the books and the Peacock Club quest.  There's also some evidence of Theer being able to communicate with people on Norrath despite being banished to the void.  After all, shadowed men have been present in Norrath for a very long time.   The Ethernaut history suggests void influence back during Shissar/Leviathan/Yha-lei dominant time periods that predate the Bayle line.  The history of the Ewer is that it was in Ahket Aken at one point and then, we don't know how, it wasn't anymore and then it is returned to Ahket Aken by Malkonis D'Morte.  Of course, the Ewer pre-existed Ahket Aken as well and how it got to the city in the first place isn't known either. </p><p style="text-align: left;">Also, Anashti and Innoruuk did exist before the gods turned their attention to Norrath.  All the gods did.  Its not that they mystically predate the existence of the rest of the gods.  The gods didn't just exist right before they marked Norrath.  They existed before known Norrathian history.  The Ydal story does not mess with the story of the existence or creation of the gods in any way. In fact, with the exception of a few deities, we DO NOT know how the gods came into being other than that the Nameless made them.</p><p style="text-align: left;">The thing about the Age of Scale?  Its timeline is a little messy.  We know that it roughly lasted around 3000 years.  We know is that the dragons were the dominant race and that they had the majority of the control over Norrath, during it.  Other races did exist during this time, including the Shissar.  In fact, Shissar lore suggests the co-existence of Shissar and dragons.</p><p>The truth of the matter is, the history we have had leaves out a lot OR only includes tidbits.  These tidbits are often overlooked or forgotten, but they still exist.  When did the Ydal evolve?  We don't know.  Prior to the existence of the Teir'dal.  If Mayong is indeed a Ydal as evidence seems to suggest and tells the truth, then they predate the dragons on Norrath.  What the current history listed above would be, then, is the history of a re-settled Norrath.  For that matter, the Ydal could have existed on another planet and then some escaped here.  We don't know.  We don't know the exact timeline of a lot of things.  Theer's banishment, Anashti's banishment, Bertox's destruction of the Xulous and his ascension to godhood, the Prime Healer's ascension to Anashti's role, etc. etc.  The story we have been told leaves plenty of information out.  We don't know who Anashti's original worshippers were.  The lore has always suggested that the Sul'Dal were Anashti's worshippers AFTER her banishment, but that they worshipped her still as a goddess of life, health, etc, which is the way that Anashti percieved herself. </p><p>Again, conflicts in lore do not mean retconning, they do not mean people are screwing up.  Lore is history.  History is perspective and often told from the side that wants to make themselves look the best.  Lore has always been suspect.  There has always been conflicts in it.  And maybe I'm the only one, but I have never considered this a problem, because I've always recognized that history isn't truth, but a version of it.  Conflicts, discrepancies, new information.  To me, all of these things are what make the history such a good, believable story.  They add a touch of reality that makes the world that much more vibrant.</p><p style="text-align: left;">As for my argument about beta lore.  Let me state it more clearly.  EverQuest was still being developed in beta, and the lore established during beta was what helped the developers create the world, name it, shape it.  Even though the beta lore wasn't the lore published when the game went live, it still had a part in developing the game.  When the game went live, developers didn't just suddenly go wipe out all vestiges of those old stories from their geography, decoration, etc.  If, in fact, you have read all the beta lore, you can see that many vestiges of it were present in live game.    You can find mention of Dagnor (named Dagnor the Butcher), Butcherblock Mts, Wielle, Ocean of Tears, Hills of Shade, Ogguk (which according to bete lore means Revenge in Ogre), the history of the Thex dynasty naming Cristanos and Naythox as usurpers, Serpent Spine Mts, Loping Plains, Kaladim, Mounts of Steam (aka Steamfont Mts), Crushbone (and why it is where it is), etc.  I could go on and on listing things from beta lore.  These things make it to live game.  Miragul's story was beta lore that made it to live game.  The names of these places, many of which were based upon the stories (i.e., Dagnor's Cauldron) made it to live game.   All of which supports the idea that beta lore had an impact and helped shaped live game.  Therefore, any good story teller (and Vhalen is a good story teller as is the rest of the lore team.  The lore team for EQ and EQ2 has always been full of excellent storytellers, lets not malign them based upon our own lack of information) is going to find a way to fold in those histories, those stories into their larger tale.  Doing so enriches a tale and helps develop the world.  Folding in doesn't mean including them verbatim, but it does mean figuring out a way to have them mesh</p><p style="text-align: left;">Vhalen left his farewell is April of 2008.  TSO was released in November 2008, started betaing in September.  They don't just develop all the lore and a full expac in 5 months.  It was in development in April of 08, which means that Vhalen had a hand in it.  In addition, the suggestions of the Ydal (such as Mistmoore's comment about Teir'dal being so alike) predate TSO.  This is not new lore devs shoehorning in things and quite frankly, its rather offensive and disrespectful to other or new lore devs to act like they are some how inferior to Vhalen simply because they are newer to the lore team or are less vocal members of it.  Lore has always been a collaborative effort between a vast team that is developing a game, from concept art being worked into lore to quest writers to zone designers, etc.  All those artists contribute to lore. </p><p style="text-align: left;">We must recognize the limitations of the creation stories and old stories.  For instance, the original creation story from above does not include a plethora of races that undoubtably existed, notably most NPC races.  These histories came later, as we uncovered their own stories.   Its not only that the history was made predominantly for the PC races, but also that the PC races were the dominant races on Norrath, the ones with the power and their stories became important.</p>

[Obzidian]

<p>Btw, the Shissar lore I refered to above is from the EQ mac manual which includes up to PoP and is therefore considered canon story. </p> <p>"<strong><em>Shissar Kingdom</em></strong><em> While the dragons took centuries to grow and organize, a race of intelligent snake men - the Shissar - assumed the forefront. The Shissar were a brutal race who enslaved the Iksar, using Vanusk's ancestors for workers and food. From their capital of Chelsith in what is now The Overthere, they explored dark rites and forgotten evils which would lay the foundation for much of Iksar knowledge and philosophy.</em></p> <p><em>As learned from the rest of Norrath, nothing is permanent. Eventually, the Shissar angered even their own gods. A horrible plague destroyed many Shissar; however, the Iksar survived unscathed."</em></p><p>Source:  <a href="http://eqmac.station.sony.com/manual_detail.jsp?chapter=2" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eqmac.station.sony.com/manua...l.jsp?chapter=2</a></p>

[Rainmare]

<p>the reason people are annoyed/dislike the Ydal being 'shoehorned' in is very simple. First, it destroys given relationships between members of the pantheon, and 2, it totally destroys the timeline.</p><p>the whole big contention between Inny and Tunare was the creation of the Elves, and his twisting of them into the Teir'dal. Other then that, these two dieties really have no contention with eachother except on the most basic good/evil premise.</p><p>the other point here is that Anashti Sul made the Ewer, it was her creation to give to her followers in Aket'Akhen, otherwise known as the Silent City. this city wasn't formed until well after the dieties had places thier creations, as it was an Elddar Elf city for elves that chose to worship Anashti rather then Tunare.</p><p>She handed then the Ewer as a gift, a promise of enternal life. the result was the creation/unleashing of undeath upon norrath, for which she was banished to the void.</p><p>only after this event could Inny have taken the Ewer to make his Ydal. which means Mayong as a Ydal, seeing has he predates the elves supposedly in his comments/remarks about him being here to witness the first brood's coming to norrath doesn't mesh at all with the timeline established since eq1. and destroys the idea of inny being [Removed for Content] that he wasn't allowed to create a race, as he obviously did if the Ydal are his creation. in fact, if mayong was a ydal, it means that inny is the only deity besides Brell to have made a race on norrath before the first pact was made to 'counter' Veeshan.</p><p>this is why generally peopel are disregaurding the ydal as a real race, and considering it more a myth/self-written creation idea like the sarnak one then an actually event.</p>

[Obzidian]

<p>The Ydal don't destroy the timeline.  They fit into blank parts of it that we don't have full histories for.</p><p>The Ydal don't destroy the relationships between members of the pantheon.  The Ydal are not the Teir'dal.  The existence of the Ydal does not eliminate the Teir'dal and Innoruuk/Tunare storyline. </p><p>Furthermore, the Ewer of Sul'Dae predates Ahken Aket.  If you read the 1001 Tales of Maj'Dul - The Tale of Ahket Aken, you read how the prophet is of the forgotten and oblivion and promises eternal life.  It is clear that Anashti has been banished and was able to communicate through the void to her prophet.  This prophet gained followers that worshipped her in secret in the city of Ahket Aken.  They risked themselves by worshipping her because worship of Anashti was forbidden.  When Solusek Ro was about to raise the Serpent Spine Mts to generate the Deserts of Ro, Anashti bid her followers drink from the Ewer of Sul'Dae (which, "sprang life to the Fyr'Un, the River of Life that ran through the celestial worlds" and predates Ahket Aken) in order to save them from the death that Takish'Hiz suffered.  In the Anashti'Sul deity quests, we see that the Ewer is her most prized possession.  It is likely, but not confirmed via any sources, that the creation of the Ewer to harvest the powers of the Fyr'Un and deliver them to mortals is what got Anashti banished in the first place.  Undeath already existed prior to the fall of Takish Hiz and the creation of Ahket Aken. </p><p>We don't know when the rituals were performed with Innoruuk's blood and the Ewer to create the Ydal.  Its very likely that it was just after Anashti was banished, before her position was usurped.  This would fit in with the Norrathian timeline.  We do know that the Ewer has had several major events along the way and has constantly and consistently made its way back to Neriak (as if its history in the creation of the Ydal were known by some in the city).  From the lore panel presentation regarding the Nights of the Dead, "<em>Meanwhile now, in Neriak, it was revealed that Queen Cristanos would not allow the city to openly celebrate the holiday.  Though only hinted at, it was due of the danger it signified.  The Dark Bargainers of Neriak had been appointed by the Queen to repair the broken Ewer of Sul'Dae, a planar artifact secretly removed from the lost city of Ahket Ahken within the Desert of Ro. The Dark Bargainers were working feverishly to obtain secret recipes and techniques to repair the planar artifact, but this was, in fact, the item that triggered the undead assault upon Maj'Dul back in the Age of Destiny.  She is not afraid of undead, but she did not want others to learn of the planar item The Dark Bargainers had retrieved.  The celebration of the holiday within Neriak she felt was too close for comfort."</em>  So the Ewer gets removed and taken by the Queen.  Then we have it stolen by Malkonis D'Morte and returned to Ahket Aken and then we destroy it in the Peacock club timeline.  Teir'dal get it again and start trying to repair it, with complications.  Finally, it is rebuilt in the Anashti'Sul timeline and returned it to her. </p><p>Again, no timelines are broken, but holes in the timeline could have been filled.  The pact of the gods that we hear about, well, I already mentioned how its got the qualifiers.  In addition, there is already evidence (which again I already mentioned) that the creation story doesn't include everything and likely represents certain races' historical view on the history of Norrath. </p><p>I keep hearing two main points of contention.  The first is that Mayong is a Ydal (which evidence supports but no lore source that I've seen directly supports) and because he says he saw the first brood's coming to Norrath, it breaks everything.  This isn't true.  Again, races existed on Norrath at the same time that the dragons did and possibly before (Xulous, Shissar).   The existence of the Ydal just further proves that the creation story is limited (a fact already proven by the existence of races not mentioned in the creation story, races which are verified by EQ1 lore before the timeline split and again this is supported by the language of the history itself).  The second point is that Innoruuk only created one race, the Teir'dal, by manipulation of the koada'dal and that he was left out of the pact, in the history.  Therefore, his creation of the Ydal violates the timelines.  See my aforementioned point, this doesn't break the timeline, merely conflicts with one historical perspective of it.   </p><p>I'm starting to feel like a broken record =p</p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>Obzidian wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The Ydal don't destroy the timeline.  They fit into blank parts of it that we don't have full histories for.</p><p>The Ydal don't destroy the relationships between members of the pantheon.  The Ydal are not the Teir'dal.  The existence of the Ydal does not eliminate the Teir'dal and Innoruuk/Tunare storyline. </p><p>Furthermore, the Ewer of Sul'Dae predates Ahken Aket.  If you read the 1001 Tales of Maj'Dul - The Tale of Ahket Aken, you read how the prophet is of the forgotten and oblivion and promises eternal life.  It is clear that Anashti has been banished and was able to communicate through the void to her prophet.  This prophet gained followers that worshipped her in secret in the city of Ahket Aken.  They risked themselves by worshipping her because worship of Anashti was forbidden.  When Solusek Ro was about to raise the Serpent Spine Mts to generate the Deserts of Ro, Anashti bid her followers drink from the Ewer of Sul'Dae (which, "sprang life to the Fyr'Un, the River of Life that ran through the celestial worlds" and predates Ahket Aken) in order to save them from the death that Takish'Hiz suffered.  In the Anashti'Sul deity quests, we see that the Ewer is her most prized possession.  It is likely, but not confirmed via any sources, that the creation of the Ewer to harvest the powers of the Fyr'Un and deliver them to mortals is what got Anashti banished in the first place.  Undeath already existed prior to the fall of Takish Hiz and the creation of Ahket Aken. </p><p>We don't know when the rituals were performed with Innoruuk's blood and the Ewer to create the Ydal.  Its very likely that it was just after Anashti was banished, before her position was usurped.  This would fit in with the Norrathian timeline.  We do know that the Ewer has had several major events along the way and has constantly and consistently made its way back to Neriak (as if its history in the creation of the Ydal were known by some in the city).  From the lore panel presentation regarding the Nights of the Dead, "<em>Meanwhile now, in Neriak, it was revealed that Queen Cristanos would not allow the city to openly celebrate the holiday.  Though only hinted at, it was due of the danger it signified.  The Dark Bargainers of Neriak had been appointed by the Queen to repair the broken Ewer of Sul'Dae, a planar artifact secretly removed from the lost city of Ahket Ahken within the Desert of Ro. The Dark Bargainers were working feverishly to obtain secret recipes and techniques to repair the planar artifact, but this was, in fact, the item that triggered the undead assault upon Maj'Dul back in the Age of Destiny.  She is not afraid of undead, but she did not want others to learn of the planar item The Dark Bargainers had retrieved.  The celebration of the holiday within Neriak she felt was too close for comfort."</em>  So the Ewer gets removed and taken by the Queen.  Then we have it stolen by Malkonis D'Morte and returned to Ahket Aken and then we destroy it in the Peacock club timeline.  Teir'dal get it again and start trying to repair it, with complications.  Finally, it is rebuilt in the Anashti'Sul timeline and returned it to her. </p><p>Again, no timelines are broken, but holes in the timeline could have been filled.  The pact of the gods that we hear about, well, I already mentioned how its got the qualifiers.  In addition, there is already evidence (which again I already mentioned) that the creation story doesn't include everything and likely represents certain races' historical view on the history of Norrath. </p><p>I keep hearing two main points of contention.  The first is that Mayong is a Ydal (which evidence supports but no lore source that I've seen directly supports) and because he says he saw the first brood's coming to Norrath, it breaks everything.  This isn't true.  Again, races existed on Norrath at the same time that the dragons did and possibly before (Xulous, Shissar).   The existence of the Ydal just further proves that the creation story is limited (a fact already proven by the existence of races not mentioned in the creation story, races which are verified by EQ1 lore before the timeline split and again this is supported by the language of the history itself).  The second point is that Innoruuk only created one race, the Teir'dal, by manipulation of the koada'dal and that he was left out of the pact, in the history.  Therefore, his creation of the Ydal violates the timelines.  See my aforementioned point, this doesn't break the timeline, merely conflicts with one historical perspective of it.   </p><p>I'm starting to feel like a broken record =p</p></blockquote><p>Every expansion adds to, and even slightly modifies the Lore of Norrath. In all cases, it eventaully gets fit in. Some lore out there has direct conflicts built into it, as it does represent the viewpoint of a certain race, or a certain diety.</p><p>However, up until the Ydal all Lore has agreed on some central points. First: Veeshan was first in depositing her brood on Norrath and then followed by the rest of the gods. Dragon lore doesn't include Veeshan in the Norrath Pathenon! There is a huge amount of circumstantial evidence to point to Veeshan not communicating with the rest of the gods. It is even probable that the Nameless didn't create Veeshan. The Ydal lore firmly disagrees with this main contention. You can fit Anashti's banishment after the first brood, and indeed after the creation of the other major races of Norrath. But if you take Ydal history to be correct, not only do you have the Ydal pre-date the first race on Norrath, but you need a second to worship Anashti and the rest of the gods to be around to banish her. Oh, and lets not forget that Theer has to be banished as well. While I highly suspect he was banished first, its possible he was banished later. Though, if Theer was around why not just execute Anashti instead of banishing her?</p><p>Also, if Innoruuk created the Ydal then why wouldn't he have claimed to have created the elves in the first place? Simply because they are light skinned and gentle (and the exact same appearance as Tunare, where as Innoruuk is reported to have many different appearances). Its perfectly within his nature to shout that kind of rehtoric, to call Tunare a thief and a forger if she coppied his race. He has claimed to be the father of the elves, but only to the Teir'dal. He also takes great pleasure in taking and twisting Tunare's creations. He didn't create a race in EQ1 until the fishmen were introduced as his new favored race (and creation).</p><p>We've known Mayong to claim many things. Its been suspected that some of those claims are lies. We've had accusations of him being made a god, and then returned to being a mortal. How much of this information is the truth, and how much is Mayong's fabrications? We're also relying in information gathered from a collectable's description. I'm not arguing that it isn't worth including in Lore, but it is maddning that we're getting a scrap of information that isn't backed up by a more traditional source of Lore. A few books on the subject would of been nice. When we're relying more on information from a collection peice than we are from the Lore created to back an entire expansion it feels lik the tail is wagging the dog.</p>

[Rezikai]

<p><cite>Obzidian wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The Ydal don't destroy the timeline.  They fit into blank parts of it that we don't have full histories for.</p><p>The Ydal don't destroy the relationships between members of the pantheon.  The Ydal are not the Teir'dal.  The existence of the Ydal does not eliminate the Teir'dal and Innoruuk/Tunare storyline. </p><p>Furthermore, the Ewer of Sul'Dae predates Ahken Aket.  If you read the 1001 Tales of Maj'Dul - The Tale of Ahket Aken, you read how the prophet is of the forgotten and oblivion and promises eternal life.  It is clear that Anashti has been banished and was able to communicate through the void to her prophet.  This prophet gained followers that worshipped her in secret in the city of Ahket Aken.  They risked themselves by worshipping her because worship of Anashti was forbidden.  When Solusek Ro was about to raise the Serpent Spine Mts to generate the Deserts of Ro, Anashti bid her followers drink from the Ewer of Sul'Dae (which, "sprang life to the Fyr'Un, the River of Life that ran through the celestial worlds" and predates Ahket Aken) in order to save them from the death that Takish'Hiz suffered.  In the Anashti'Sul deity quests, we see that the Ewer is her most prized possession.  It is likely, but not confirmed via any sources, that the creation of the Ewer to harvest the powers of the Fyr'Un and deliver them to mortals is what got Anashti banished in the first place.  Undeath already existed prior to the fall of Takish Hiz and the creation of Ahket Aken. </p><p>We don't know when the rituals were performed with Innoruuk's blood and the Ewer to create the Ydal.  Its very likely that it was just after Anashti was banished, before her position was usurped.  This would fit in with the Norrathian timeline.  We do know that the Ewer has had several major events along the way and has constantly and consistently made its way back to Neriak (as if its history in the creation of the Ydal were known by some in the city).  From the lore panel presentation regarding the Nights of the Dead, "<em>Meanwhile now, in Neriak, it was revealed that Queen Cristanos would not allow the city to openly celebrate the holiday.  Though only hinted at, it was due of the danger it signified.  The Dark Bargainers of Neriak had been appointed by the Queen to repair the broken Ewer of Sul'Dae, a planar artifact secretly removed from the lost city of Ahket Ahken within the Desert of Ro. The Dark Bargainers were working feverishly to obtain secret recipes and techniques to repair the planar artifact, but this was, in fact, the item that triggered the undead assault upon Maj'Dul back in the Age of Destiny.  She is not afraid of undead, but she did not want others to learn of the planar item The Dark Bargainers had retrieved.  The celebration of the holiday within Neriak she felt was too close for comfort."</em>  So the Ewer gets removed and taken by the Queen.  Then we have it stolen by Malkonis D'Morte and returned to Ahket Aken and then we destroy it in the Peacock club timeline.  Teir'dal get it again and start trying to repair it, with complications.  Finally, it is rebuilt in the Anashti'Sul timeline and returned it to her. <span style="color: #ff6600;">Hehe... this was the more recent time, remember it was originally Naythox way back when that originally ordered the D'Morte House destroyed because of the Ewer turning them into Vamps, and then Malkonis fled to the Elddar Forrest with it. The more recent time of the Queen not allowing people to worship the Nights of the Dead is a much more recent event in the Age of Destiny, where the Ewer was in the Dark Bargainer's hands after they recovered it after we shattered it in the DoF/Peacok line.</span></p><p>Again, no timelines are broken, but holes in the timeline could have been filled.  The pact of the gods that we hear about, well, I already mentioned how its got the qualifiers.  In addition, there is already evidence (which again I already mentioned) that the creation story doesn't include everything and likely represents certain races' historical view on the history of Norrath. </p><p>I keep hearing two main points of contention.  The first is that Mayong is a Ydal (which evidence supports but no lore source that I've seen directly supports) and because he says he saw the first brood's coming to Norrath, it breaks everything.  This isn't true.  Again, races existed on Norrath at the same time that the dragons did and possibly before (Xulous, Shissar).   The existence of the Ydal just further proves that the creation story is limited (a fact already proven by the existence of races not mentioned in the creation story, races which are verified by EQ1 lore before the timeline split and again this is supported by the language of the history itself).  The second point is that Innoruuk only created one race, the Teir'dal, by manipulation of the koada'dal and that he was left out of the pact, in the history.  Therefore, his creation of the Ydal violates the timelines.  See my aforementioned point, this doesn't break the timeline, merely conflicts with one historical perspective of it.   </p><p>I'm starting to feel like a broken record =p</p></blockquote><p>I agree to be honest, the really only points of contention for me are,...</p><p>Mayongs claim to see the 1st brood of Dragons.. which "could" be close to true if his race was around early on when the Elddar Elves were around to see them to, the dragons would have been established of course but seeing the original first brood may be more of what he was meaning rather then saying he saw Veeshan actually strike Norrath.</p><p>Ydal themselves being the original race Innoruuk created for Norrath, we assume he was making them for Norrath.. we assume to be a first race possibly because he was upset he didnt get to make one with the original crew Brell allowed (I assume the Ydal were made just after the Elddar Elves), and thats the reason for the empty city in the plane of Hate in the Teir`Dal origin story. I'd like to have seen more evidence of the ancient elven race prior to this, although technichally.... hmmm there is some in-game now that i start to think of it.</p><p>Maybe this was something Vhalen (who was cryptic every time he spoke of ancient figures) spoke so cryptic of we never understood, something we didnt figure out.</p>

[Rezikai]

<p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Obzidian wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The Ydal don't destroy the timeline.  They fit into blank parts of it that we don't have full histories for.</p><p>The Ydal don't destroy the relationships between members of the pantheon.  The Ydal are not the Teir'dal.  The existence of the Ydal does not eliminate the Teir'dal and Innoruuk/Tunare storyline. </p><p>Furthermore, the Ewer of Sul'Dae predates Ahken Aket.  If you read the 1001 Tales of Maj'Dul - The Tale of Ahket Aken, you read how the prophet is of the forgotten and oblivion and promises eternal life.  It is clear that Anashti has been banished and was able to communicate through the void to her prophet.  This prophet gained followers that worshipped her in secret in the city of Ahket Aken.  They risked themselves by worshipping her because worship of Anashti was forbidden.  When Solusek Ro was about to raise the Serpent Spine Mts to generate the Deserts of Ro, Anashti bid her followers drink from the Ewer of Sul'Dae (which, "sprang life to the Fyr'Un, the River of Life that ran through the celestial worlds" and predates Ahket Aken) in order to save them from the death that Takish'Hiz suffered.  In the Anashti'Sul deity quests, we see that the Ewer is her most prized possession.  It is likely, but not confirmed via any sources, that the creation of the Ewer to harvest the powers of the Fyr'Un and deliver them to mortals is what got Anashti banished in the first place.  Undeath already existed prior to the fall of Takish Hiz and the creation of Ahket Aken. </p><p>We don't know when the rituals were performed with Innoruuk's blood and the Ewer to create the Ydal.  Its very likely that it was just after Anashti was banished, before her position was usurped.  This would fit in with the Norrathian timeline.  We do know that the Ewer has had several major events along the way and has constantly and consistently made its way back to Neriak (as if its history in the creation of the Ydal were known by some in the city).  From the lore panel presentation regarding the Nights of the Dead, "<em>Meanwhile now, in Neriak, it was revealed that Queen Cristanos would not allow the city to openly celebrate the holiday.  Though only hinted at, it was due of the danger it signified.  The Dark Bargainers of Neriak had been appointed by the Queen to repair the broken Ewer of Sul'Dae, a planar artifact secretly removed from the lost city of Ahket Ahken within the Desert of Ro. The Dark Bargainers were working feverishly to obtain secret recipes and techniques to repair the planar artifact, but this was, in fact, the item that triggered the undead assault upon Maj'Dul back in the Age of Destiny.  She is not afraid of undead, but she did not want others to learn of the planar item The Dark Bargainers had retrieved.  The celebration of the holiday within Neriak she felt was too close for comfort."</em>  So the Ewer gets removed and taken by the Queen.  Then we have it stolen by Malkonis D'Morte and returned to Ahket Aken and then we destroy it in the Peacock club timeline.  Teir'dal get it again and start trying to repair it, with complications.  Finally, it is rebuilt in the Anashti'Sul timeline and returned it to her. </p><p>Again, no timelines are broken, but holes in the timeline could have been filled.  The pact of the gods that we hear about, well, I already mentioned how its got the qualifiers.  In addition, there is already evidence (which again I already mentioned) that the creation story doesn't include everything and likely represents certain races' historical view on the history of Norrath. </p><p>I keep hearing two main points of contention.  The first is that Mayong is a Ydal (which evidence supports but no lore source that I've seen directly supports) and because he says he saw the first brood's coming to Norrath, it breaks everything.  This isn't true.  Again, races existed on Norrath at the same time that the dragons did and possibly before (Xulous, Shissar).   The existence of the Ydal just further proves that the creation story is limited (a fact already proven by the existence of races not mentioned in the creation story, races which are verified by EQ1 lore before the timeline split and again this is supported by the language of the history itself).  The second point is that Innoruuk only created one race, the Teir'dal, by manipulation of the koada'dal and that he was left out of the pact, in the history.  Therefore, his creation of the Ydal violates the timelines.  See my aforementioned point, this doesn't break the timeline, merely conflicts with one historical perspective of it.   </p><p>I'm starting to feel like a broken record =p</p></blockquote><p>Every expansion adds to, and even slightly modifies the Lore of Norrath. In all cases, it eventaully gets fit in. Some lore out there has direct conflicts built into it, as it does represent the viewpoint of a certain race, or a certain diety.</p><p>However, up until the Ydal all Lore has agreed on some central points. First: Veeshan was first in depositing her brood on Norrath and then followed by the rest of the gods. Dragon lore doesn't include Veeshan in the Norrath Pathenon! <span style="color: #ff00ff;"><em><strong>There is a huge amount of circumstantial evidence to point to Veeshan not communicating with the rest of the gods. It is even probable that the Nameless didn't create Veeshan. The Ydal lore firmly disagrees with this main contention. </strong></em></span>You can fit Anashti's banishment after the first brood, and indeed after the creation of the other major races of Norrath. But if you take Ydal history to be correct, not only do you have the Ydal pre-date the first race on Norrath, but you need a second to worship Anashti and the rest of the gods to be around to banish her. Oh, and lets not forget that Theer has to be banished as well. While I highly suspect he was banished first, its possible he was banished later. Though, if Theer was around why not just execute Anashti instead of banishing her?</p><p>Also, if Innoruuk created the Ydal then why wouldn't he have claimed to have created the elves in the first place? Simply because they are light skinned and gentle (and the exact same appearance as Tunare, where as Innoruuk is reported to have many different appearances). Its perfectly within his nature to shout that kind of rehtoric, to call Tunare a thief and a forger if she coppied his race. He has claimed to be the father of the elves, but only to the Teir'dal. He also takes great pleasure in taking and twisting Tunare's creations. He didn't create a race in EQ1 until the fishmen were introduced as his new favored race (and creation).</p><p>We've known Mayong to claim many things. Its been suspected that some of those claims are lies. We've had accusations of him being made a god, and then returned to being a mortal. How much of this information is the truth, and how much is Mayong's fabrications? We're also relying in information gathered from a collectable's description. I'm not arguing that it isn't worth including in Lore, but it is maddning that we're getting a scrap of information that isn't backed up by a more traditional source of Lore. A few books on the subject would of been nice. When we're relying more on information from a collection peice than we are from the Lore created to back an entire expansion it feels lik the tail is wagging the dog.</p></blockquote><p>This i have to disagree with, we simply dont know when it happened. I assume after Anashti was banished, we assume Mayong is Ydal, .. Mayong aside we dont have anything to say they were a race on Norrath 1st before any of the other early races.</p>

[Obzidian]

<p>So, when I was searching for information on Velious and its races, I found this from the the official website history release of Velious. </p><p><em><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Before recorded time</span>, Veeshan the great Crystalline Dragon marked Norrath by striking the continent of Velious with her foreclaw, and deposited her brood there to dwell. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">The legends of that time</span> also tell that Veeshan blasted Velious with her breath, encasing it in eternal ice and creating a barrier of deadly ice flows and stormy weather. This marked the beginning of the Age of Scale. The <span style="text-decoration: underline;">Age of Scale lasted untold millennia</span>. From the tidbits of information passed down, it is known that a group of dragons mastered magic and spellcasting during this era. Additionally, dragons of power and influence among their kind gathered together and formed a hereditary ruling council known as the Claws of Veeshan, who rule the dragons of Velious to this day. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">Few of Norrath’s inhabitants know more of this Age,and none that do would dare to speak.</span></em></p><p>I think with the Ydal and the Shissar and the Xulous and other races that are lost and that we have basically no information on, we're looking at things during the Age of Scale or possibly before it.   I really disagree that all lore has Veeshan's kids being the first on Norrath because we do have the Shissar, we do have the Xulous, etc.  We have evidence that suggests races that existed before the races we know of in the Elder Age and that they existed with or possibly before the dragons or maybe they were here when Veeshan put her kids here.  But honestly, even if that's what is written, its really not surprising.  We do have lost gods, remember?  There would be no reason for a god who is gone to have information presented in Norrathian histories.  No reason for any races that are gone to have been mentioned because very few would even know of their existence to account for them.  Any information about Anashti was intentionally removed from Norrathian histories when she was banished.  And it was the other gods that banished Anashti NOT Theer.  You're right that Theer's banishment likely predates Anashti's.  Theer wouldn't necessarily kill Anashti because he was about preserving the balance of powers.  The gods who banished Anashti to the void did so because they didn't like her attempt at curing death because it gave mortals more power by making them undead.  The Ydal were created in part from the Ewer of Sul'Dae, an Ewer who's history would have been largely destroyed.  There's lots of possible explainations for who they were and why they existed and where and why we don't have any history.  There's not even any guarantee that they first existed on Norrath, for that matter, only that they came to exist on Norrath.</p><p>While its sad that the majority of the information we have is in the form of collectibles and quests (the Ydal are mentioned in quests and dialogue within the Mistmoore instances, not just the collectibles), it makes utter and perfect sense that this is the case.  There is other lore that supports the Ydal's existence, its just not written lore.  Its geography, ruins, existence of various populations, the Teir'dal's constant attempts to secure the Ewer.  Personally, I wonder if Queen Cristanos, in her attempts to become a goddess, wasn't trying to replicate the creation of the Ydal with experiments with the Ewer.  Why would she think to do this?  Well, there's this powerful scroll in Neriak that I believe (I'll have to go double check the dialogue and history) is from Hate and all the guilds in Neriak are debating over who gets possession of it. </p><p>I actually expect that we're going to get more information on the Ydal in the next expansion.  Its pretty common for us to get tidbits of info and then have more info presented in the future.</p>

[Lera]

<p><cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Lera'Dal Frostfell Elves is unofficial and a tease to a DE Paladin on AB server Lera who always deny's that she is really a Frostfell Elf. </span></p></blockquote><p>Because SHE IS NOT A FROSTFELL ELF!</p>

[Hamervelder]

<p><cite>Lera wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Lera'Dal Frostfell Elves is unofficial and a tease to a DE Paladin on AB server Lera who always deny's that she is really a Frostfell Elf. </span></p></blockquote><p>Because SHE IS NOT A FROSTFELL ELF!</p></blockquote><p>Denial. It's not just a river in Egypt.</p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>Obzidian wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So, when I was searching for information on Velious and its races, I found this from the the official website history release of Velious. </p><p><em><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Before recorded time</span>, Veeshan the great Crystalline Dragon marked Norrath by striking the continent of Velious with her foreclaw, and deposited her brood there to dwell. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">The legends of that time</span> also tell that Veeshan blasted Velious with her breath, encasing it in eternal ice and creating a barrier of deadly ice flows and stormy weather. This marked the beginning of the Age of Scale. The <span style="text-decoration: underline;">Age of Scale lasted untold millennia</span>. From the tidbits of information passed down, it is known that a group of dragons mastered magic and spellcasting during this era. Additionally, dragons of power and influence among their kind gathered together and formed a hereditary ruling council known as the Claws of Veeshan, who rule the dragons of Velious to this day. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">Few of Norrath’s inhabitants know more of this Age,and none that do would dare to speak.</span></em></p><p>I think with the Ydal and the Shissar and the Xulous and other races that are lost and that we have basically no information on, we're looking at things during the Age of Scale or possibly before it.   I really disagree that all lore has Veeshan's kids being the first on Norrath because we do have the Shissar, we do have the Xulous, etc.  We have evidence that suggests races that existed before the races we know of in the Elder Age and that they existed with or possibly before the dragons or maybe they were here when Veeshan put her kids here.  But honestly, even if that's what is written, its really not surprising.  We do have lost gods, remember?  There would be no reason for a god who is gone to have information presented in Norrathian histories.  No reason for any races that are gone to have been mentioned because very few would even know of their existence to account for them.  Any information about Anashti was intentionally removed from Norrathian histories when she was banished.  And it was the other gods that banished Anashti NOT Theer.  You're right that Theer's banishment likely predates Anashti's.  Theer wouldn't necessarily kill Anashti because he was about preserving the balance of powers.  The gods who banished Anashti to the void did so because they didn't like her attempt at curing death because it gave mortals more power by making them undead.  The Ydal were created in part from the Ewer of Sul'Dae, an Ewer who's history would have been largely destroyed.  There's lots of possible explainations for who they were and why they existed and where and why we don't have any history.  There's not even any guarantee that they first existed on Norrath, for that matter, only that they came to exist on Norrath.</p><p>While its sad that the majority of the information we have is in the form of collectibles and quests (the Ydal are mentioned in quests and dialogue within the Mistmoore instances, not just the collectibles), it makes utter and perfect sense that this is the case.  There is other lore that supports the Ydal's existence, its just not written lore.  Its geography, ruins, existence of various populations, the Teir'dal's constant attempts to secure the Ewer.  Personally, I wonder if Queen Cristanos, in her attempts to become a goddess, wasn't trying to replicate the creation of the Ydal with experiments with the Ewer.  Why would she think to do this?  Well, there's this powerful scroll in Neriak that I believe (I'll have to go double check the dialogue and history) is from Hate and all the guilds in Neriak are debating over who gets possession of it. </p><p>I actually expect that we're going to get more information on the Ydal in the next expansion.  Its pretty common for us to get tidbits of info and then have more info presented in the future.</p></blockquote><p>The age of scale lasted for millennia. The many of the other races the gods made came into existance during the age of scale. The Shissar are one of Cazic's creations. They predate the Iksar, and enslaved them. We're not sure if this happened during or after the age of Scale. The various histories of Norrath are reported in such a manner that you don't really have much in the way of common refrence points to link the history of one race to another if the devs could avoid it. Yes, that was done on purpose. Its also the reason for the multiple calendars, to make it harder to nail this stuff down in a specific timeline.</p><p>As for lost gods...your talking about Anashti'Sul and Theer. Gods specifically created to be "lost". Oh, lets not forget Zeb who was also suppose to be hidden. The gods banished Anashti because she created undeath. None of them cared if mortals became more powerful when she was banished, or if they became technically immortal. The objected to the undead being created from their races, and threatning to destroy everything they worked for. Some of the gods found use for the undead afterward, but I think they would all agree they were better off before the undead came into existance. Even Cazic and Bert can't really like undead. After all, the undead may cause fear but they can't feel it. Also the undead can't catch a diesease. What good are followers that can't properly worship their diety?</p><p>If the gods did punish Anashti for attempting to "cure death", then they need to start opposing Rodcet now because he has made the exact same statements. I don't see the entire pathenon lining up to whack Rodcet. That can't be the main reason Anashti got in trouble.</p><p>As for the physical evidence, its pefectly within Mayong's ability to manufacture everything we've seen with the exception of the Ydal spirits. Well, he could manufacture them as well but I can't think of a single reason why he'd want to brainwash his own followers into believing this and then make sure they came back as spirits. That's too machivalian even for Mayong. Its possible that its all true. Its possible its somewhere in between. Its Mayong we're dealing with, and he's hard to trust at face value.</p><p>Now if your ruling over an evil empire and you are trying to make yourself into a god, would you turn down the opportunity to get a hold of a planar artifact? Especially one created by a god that you don't have to worry about comming to look for it? Its the source of the original undead and reported to be used in the creation of an undead army. Why wouldn't you look for it? I'm suprised the Overlord didn't get wind of it and make an attempt to grab it himself. So aside from rumors of creating the Ydal, its still something that Queen Thex would be interested in.</p><p>If the Ydal are used elsewhere, I'm sure we'll here more about their lore. Maybe not next expansion, but sooner or later.</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p>I thought it should be worth mentioning that there *WAS* an ancient Elven language called Dyth'Dal that existed around the same time as proto-humans began to settle into the Plains of Karana. We find out that such a language existed from the Qeynos quest line for the Will of the Tyrant event.</p>