Healers got Screwed...

[Vual]

<p>So for now the two hardest mobs in the game are Munzok and Miragul.</p><p>They both drop some nice pieces for every class except healers pretty much got left with 1 nice item between both mobs compared to the 5 items scouts and tanks get get...</p><p>Scouts:</p><p>Two Rings</p><p>An Offhand Weapon</p><p>A decent charm also</p><p>Mages:</p><p>Kickass Symbol</p><p>A nice neck</p><p>and no mage stuff has been dropped by miragul yet, although even the munzok loot for mages is better than all of the healer loot from both mobs</p><p>Tanks:</p><p>Very nice charm</p><p>A ring</p><p>an earring</p><p>and a bow</p><p>Healers:</p><p>2 almost identical necklaces, which admitedly they are nice, but one from each mob? just why? this is essentially one item for us</p><p>a shield. great. the soh one has the same proc, more protection, and 5 cast haste is better than the 3 crit bonus imho if not better it is very comparable (and we can just assume everyone who kills these has 100 crit easily right? and ignore the 3% more the munzok one has)</p><p>and a charm from miragul - a not that great one I might add, pretend like you drop rodcet nife for it, ok so you gain what? 3 crit bonus, and 2m onto all your heals range and radius? (nobody should still have power issues) and you lose a proc and 75 heal mod from the nife charm, once again two very comparable items so not really an upgrade</p><p>oh and the mount from munzok is a nice scout/fighter mount.. just one more thing they get</p><p>after nerfing all of the avatar gear and taking so much away from us it seems you've given at least some nice new shiny items to every class except healers...</p><p>we still lack a decent ring (to complement ykesha's of course) most are still wearing a legendary collection item...</p><p>why would you not make one of the mobs drop a necklace and the other drop a ring? or some other item of value...</p><p>at least the other three classes could wear every single item that drops off of both of these mobs (assuming miragul doesn't drop a mage neck...) we can't even wear all of our if we wanted to</p><p>please do something about this, change the proc slightly (or not) on the miragul/munzok necklace and change it into a ring please.</p><p>thanks</p>

[Tehom]

<p>Honestly, given how strong the priest necks are in terms of an upgrade compared to upgrades other people get, it seemed like priests made out pretty well. The SoH/sidegrade shield is admittedly underwhelming and needs 5 cast speed, but I'm not too broken up with just eventually getting the buckler from enraged haladan instead unless I want to have the defensive proc. The priest charm from miragul is a big shrug, but that's more due to how strong the priest avatar charms were, so I don't really have any complaints there either.</p>

[Korrupt]

<p>Tbh that only means all the other healer necks in game are junk, meaning you can put just about anything in that slot on these mobs and it would be a huge upgrade.</p>

[Gormak]

<p>Im hoping that devs have thought of this already (perty please)....</p><p>But it would be super if raid bosses come TSF dropped item crates much like in the loping plains instances.</p><p>Loot can be picked from a choice. Farmability and repeatability are still there, since guilds will still want to equip all its members.</p><p>This then has the onset effect of not having to worry about "smart loot", and alleviates the issue of constant complaints about "why wont xxxxxxxxxx ever drop".</p><p>Im sure some people will complain about the "thrill" of getting the loot-by-chance, but frankly the day and age of 999999 kill-rince-repeat farm cycles are gone. We are faster and faster getting into a fast-food era of online gaming, not just EQ2, everywhere. But this is getting into another discussion.</p><p>anyway, just some thoughts</p>

[Hina]

<p>item crates in raids seems like a REALLY bad idea to me.  If you're on a DKP system.. well.. then everyone is dropping a crap load on every upgrade, and that doesnt help anything-- it just bottle necks imo when you have everyone fighting over the same drops.  If you have leader assigned loot.. well.. that also creates problems.  Im not a big fan of competing against 24 ppl for gear versus 6-10 depending on what role you play.  maybe it would all balance out in the end, but it doesnt sound like a great idea to me, especially with how some classes are more competative with DKP than others (tanks get everything pretty cheap compared to scouts or mages).  The only positive i see in dropping crates is at least you wouldnt be going through an entire zone and giving everything to alts because the RNG wont coopertate-- doesnt seem like big enough incentive to me for such a huge change.</p>

[hellfire]

<p>The loot system anyone uses wether it be dkp lotto leader assigned should never have a impact on what drops or how a item is designed or nerfed.</p><p>What happens with a pick and choose package is you steam roll through the replayability of a zone and instead of people screaming on the boards about  lack of content or progression 6 months into a expantion it would be that way 3 months into a expack.</p><p>Pct based smart loot is fine till later in a  expantion then becomes full smart loot.But being able to pick and choose  the best items is bad.Some items are very good because they are also very rare.And rarity should still play a role in terms of obtaining a items.Some items should be special where not every Tom Dlck and Harry is rolling with one hence why Najenas ring is  fineand Nizara sash is fine  and the Op items from SoH is fine.</p>

[Quicksilver74]

<p>To the OP - you realize there is still undiscovered loot right?   Fyreflyte posted somewhere else about Munzok's "Mounts", implying there is at least 1 other mount (Might be healer friendly), and there are other items as well. </p>

[Pervis]

<p><cite>Crabbok@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>To the OP - you realize there is still undiscovered loot right?   Fyreflyte posted somewhere else about Munzok's "Mounts", implying there is at least 1 other mount (Might be healer friendly), and there are other items as well. </p></blockquote><p>While this is true, there should never have been two top end healer necklaces to the detriment of other slots.</p>

[Lemilla]

<p>Why is it that people are complaining about everything these days ...</p><p>There are plenty of good healer items for all slots. We priests didn't get screwed, we got <em>choice</em>.</p>

[Pervis]

<p><cite>Lemilla@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>We priests didn't get screwed, we got <em>choice</em>.</blockquote><p>Choice for one slot... but what are your top end choices for, say, the ranged slot?</p>

[Crismorn]

<p><cite>Pervis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lemilla@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>We priests didn't get screwed, we got <em>choice</em>.</blockquote><p>Choice for one slot... but what are your top end choices for, say, the ranged slot?</p></blockquote><p>Avatar symbol.  Oh wait you only go after contested mobs that can be solo'd, my bad.</p>

[Pervis]

<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Avatar symbol.  Oh wait you only go after contested mobs that can be solo'd, my bad.</blockquote><p>While its argueable with Munzok and Miragul, when talking about instanced loot, contested loot is not a factor.</p><p>The items on contested mobs are the only ones in the game that should be developed and discussed seperatly. When talking about instanced loot, discussing a contested item is akin to talking about heroic drops, and claiming a raid drop is a valid upgrade.</p>

[Lemilla]

<p>For a raider, a raiddrop is a valid upgrade over a heroic drop. For non-raiders, the heroic drop is all they need. And Avatars are top end. That not everyone kills them doesn't mean they are not part of the progression.</p><p>And no choice for priest ranged items? Sure, not many are out of raid instances, but there are plenty of good items to choose from. Items with varying effects even, giving you choice.SoD: <span >aITEM 592925683 -7337559:The Arm of Erollisi/aNHT: </span><span >aITEM 1978585608 1204260724:Symbol of Najenaar Dominance/aGuk3: </span> <span >aITEM -1426606283 2049700786:Ferhustr's Furious Rolling-Pin/aSignature: </span>aITEM -1135567544 -584041138:Censer of the Ethernaut Priest /aYzlak: aITEM 1422984091 -312585352:[Contained Idol of Void Mist]/aAvatar: aITEM 1259636405 1967761045:[Symbol of the Faydark]/a</p>

[Pervis]

<p><cite>Lemilla@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>For a raider, a raiddrop is a valid upgrade over a heroic drop. For non-raiders, the heroic drop is all they need. And Avatars are top end. That not everyone kills them doesn't mean they are not part of the progression.</p><p>And no choice for priest ranged items? Sure, not many are out of raid instances, but there are plenty of good items to choose from. Items with varying effects even, giving you choice.SoD: <span>aITEM 592925683 -7337559:The Arm of Erollisi/aNHT: </span><span>aITEM 1978585608 1204260724:Symbol of Najenaar Dominance/aGuk3: </span><span>aITEM -1426606283 2049700786:Ferhustr's Furious Rolling-Pin/aSignature: </span>aITEM -1135567544 -584041138:Censer of the Ethernaut Priest /aYzlak: aITEM 1422984091 -312585352:[Contained Idol of Void Mist]/aAvatar: aITEM 1259636405 1967761045:[Symbol of the Faydark]/a</p></blockquote><p>Interesting post.</p><p>In a matter of seconds, you managed to totally miss my point, and yet prove it. Not only that, but you managed to do this using incorrect information.</p><p>All said and done, thats quite an accomplishment.</p><p>OK. First, I never said avatar loot is not a part of progression, as it clearly is. What I said, and what I have been saying for many years, is that avatar loot is its own part of progression.</p><p>Not providing an instance raid upgrade to for a slot to an entire archtype is akin to not providing any heroic upgrades in an entire expansion to that same slot.</p><p>Itemization should be done in four stages. Solo obtained items, which has practically no progression within. Heroic itemization, which has plenty of room for progression within just this one stage, a stage that starts where solo obtained left off. Instaced raid, which has a similar amount of progression to heroic and starts after it leaves off. Finally there is contested raid, which is at the end of progression, and as such has no internal progression (in general).</p><p>Now on to your list of items.</p><p>The Arm of Erollisi is not from the Swords of Destiny, as you claim. It is from teh Claymore quest series. This is the incorrect piece of information I mentioned above. This item is almost 4 years old, to call it an end game item is a disgrace, yet is also fairly accurate.</p><p>Symbol of Najenar Dominance, Ferhustr's Rolling-Pin and Censer of the Ethernaut Priest are all heroic obtained. They do not fit the discription of a raid dropped healer symbol.</p><p>Contained Idol of Void Mist is even more of a disgrace than The Arm of Erollisi. It is a current raid drop that is not even almost as good as a current heroic dropped item, nor a quest reward from 4 years ago.</p><p>Symbol of Faydark, as mentioned above, also does not fit in with instanced raid items, as it is not instanced.</p><p>So, thank you for proving my point. The only raid dropped healer symbol in the game is a disgrace, and healers would be forgiven for using a 4 year old item in that slot, assuming they do not have access to contested raid items. Ergo, either of the necklaces mentioned in the OP should have instead been a healer symbol, as there is no need for two top end instanced raid healer necklaces, especially in teh absence of a top end instanced raid healer symbol.</p>

[Tehom]

<p><cite>Pervis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Avatar symbol.  Oh wait you only go after contested mobs that can be solo'd, my bad.</blockquote><p>While its argueable with Munzok and Miragul, when talking about instanced loot, contested loot is not a factor.</p><p>The items on contested mobs are the only ones in the game that should be developed and discussed seperatly. When talking about instanced loot, discussing a contested item is akin to talking about heroic drops, and claiming a raid drop is a valid upgrade.</p></blockquote><p>Symbol from Yzlak, rolling pin, the equivalent to rolling pin from kurns x2 are all valid range-slot choices without access to Symbol of the Faydark, especially since priest shield from enraged haladan gave a pretty good choice if you're not married to the stoneskin proc from brace of corporeal darklight or munzok shield. You might say Contained Idol of Void Mist is a 'disgrace', but I'd just say that your priests have no idea what to chase if they think that. 5 reuse/cast speed is a lot better than pretty much any other option for the slot, given the degree to which healing is based on procs now. I'm sorry if you're unable to see that.</p><p>Priests have seen a lot of itemization options lately that largely make avatar loot irrelevant since you can replace any slot with items that are roughly comparable now.</p>

[Pervis]

<p><cite>Chath@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>5 reuse/cast speed is a lot better than pretty much any other option for the slot</blockquote><p>Except for that item from 4 expansions ago, and thw two other items with the same effect.</p><p>The copy/paste of the rolling pin is the only upgrade in TSO instanced raiding to the Arm, and its hard to consider that top end gear in the same light as the necklaces in question.</p><p>Point is, there are other slots that are missing top end instanced raid items. You can sit here and list off all the items for that slot, but until you can give me a link to a top end instanced raid healer symbol that is on par with those necklaces, my point stands.</p><p>Its such a shame really.</p>

[Banditman]

<p>You cannot compare a neck slot to a ranged slot, the "rules" governing the slots are completely different.</p>

[Hecula]

<p><cite>Bigron@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What happens with a pick and choose package is you steam roll through the replayability of a zone and instead of people screaming on the boards about  lack of content or progression 6 months into a expantion it would be that way 3 months into a expack.</p></blockquote><p>Exactly right. I heard that the devs felt it was a huge mistake doing what they did for Mystmyr and Ravenscale with the loot crates and that it will likely not be duplicated in a serious capacity. In a raid, loot crates would be like smartloot on steroids.</p>

[Pervis]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>You cannot compare a neck slot to a ranged slot, the "rules" governing the slots are completely different.</blockquote><p>I wasn't and didn't directly compare any items from differnt slots, I mearly pointed out that there is not a single top end instanced healer symbol, yet there are multiple top end instanced healer neck slot items.</p><p>If I wanted to go in to detail, however, it wouldn't be that hard to look at items for healers from both slots, and from various times in the games history, to determine that symbols, in general, have a higher allocation than neck slot items do.</p><p>Since they are items for different slots though, thats not an argument I wanted to get in to. As I said, I was mearly pointing out the total absence of top end instanced healer symbols. Either prove that wrong (the only thing I am claiming in this thread) or don't bother arguing, as its pointless to try to argue a point that no one is trying to make.</p>

[Banditman]

<p><cite>Pervis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Point is, there are other slots that are missing top end instanced raid items. You can sit here and list off all the items for that slot, but <strong>until you can give me a link to a top end instanced raid healer symbol that is on par with those necklaces, </strong>my point stands.</p><p>Its such a shame really.</p></blockquote><p>You were indeed trying to compare a neck to a symbol, I'm glad you're now backing off of that.</p><p>The problem however is still there.  As they say, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder".  What are you wanting to see?  There are numerous healer shields out there.  Trakanon drops a Symbol with an interesting clicky, given all the crazy mem wiping mobs.</p><p>You're never really said what you're looking for, just said "better than X".  Better how?</p>

[Telden]

<p><cite>Lemilla@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Why is it that people are complaining about everything these days ...</p></blockquote><p>I want to complain about all the complaining! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Pervis]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Pervis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Point is, there are other slots that are missing top end instanced raid items. You can sit here and list off all the items for that slot, but <strong>until you can give me a link to a top end instanced raid healer symbol that is on par with those necklaces, </strong>my point stands.</p><p>Its such a shame really.</p></blockquote><p>You were indeed trying to compare a neck to a symbol, I'm glad you're now backing off of that.</p></blockquote><p>Notice I said on par with, not directly comparible to?</p><p>While there are a few healer shields out there - including a few very nice ones - that doesn't fit the criteria here (I asked specifically for ranged slot items, because I know there are enough shields).</p><p>If your best suggestion is from last expansion, you are only further proving my point.</p><p>As for what I am looking for - obviously an upgrade to the Rolling-Pin/Arm/KTx2 symbol. Basically, a symbol that drops off a top end instanced raid mob, and has appropriate stats and effects. I don't think its too much to ask for, and I don't get why you are against it.</p>

[Vual]

<p>Not sure why you guys are arguing about heroic instanced loot and easy raid loot in my thread... but since apparently it's needed i'll make my point clear for everyone</p><p><span style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px;"><strong><span style="font-size: large;">The other three archetypes could wear every single item that drops off of both of these mobs healers can't even wear all of ours if we wanted to.</span></strong></span></p><p>This fact if very annoying on an <strong>ENDGAME</strong> mob. And yes the other three Archetypes do get several pieces of loot that are way more than just <strong>SIDEGRADES </strong>which are all that most of the healer items are. Buff some of the healer items, or change one of the necklaces. And don't give us any crap about you can't make such a drastic change to which slot an item uses after it has already been discovered, I doubt more than 4-5 of these necklaces (of each one) exist WW and after changing the Anashti Belt changing a couple necklaces should be easy in comparison.</p><p>@Crabbok - Yes I know there is undiscovered loot, aside from the possibility of a healer mount though I doubt any more healer items are left to be discovered on these mobs, 2 Items for each class on each mob seems to be the usual for SOE recently (excluding items like mounts)</p>

[Avirodar]

<p><cite>Vual@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>@Crabbok - Yes I know there is undiscovered loot, aside from the possibility of a healer mount though I doubt any more healer items are left to be discovered on these mobs, 2 Items for each class on each mob seems to be the usual for SOE recently (excluding items like mounts)</p></blockquote><p>Based on other mounts, if there was a "healer mount", it would be an underwhelming pile of pure suckage, that is vastly inferior to the mount you purchase with shards from a Moors vendor mob. If undiscovered loot was a legitimate topic, mounts are not something worth alluding to a possibility of.</p>

[profe]

<p>Funny, I got the impression that everyone except healers got screwed. The classic dilemma for maximizing heals is choosing between base/mod/bonus/crit (size) and reuse/cast (speed). The circumstances determine which one is the most important. With the drops from Miragul's and Munzok's, we can rise to the occasion.</p><p>Neck:Talisman of the Prime Healer, Munzok (size)Choker of Memories, Miragul (speed)</p><p>Ear:aITEM 273246243 890145727:[Hoop of Hope]/a, Qxectus (size and bonus stifle immunity)aITEM 1163785546 -116266709:[Loop of Frozen Memories]/a, Haladan Enraged (speed)</p><p>Secondary:aITEM -1892643530 -1411917123 82533628:Baneward, Barrier of Shadow/a, Munzok (size)aITEM 1776875071 414451537:[Iced Buckler of Reminiscence]/a, Haladan Enraged (speed)</p>

[Pervis]

<p><cite>profe wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>The classic dilemma for maximizing heals is choosing between base/mod/bonus/crit (size) and reuse/cast (speed)</blockquote><p>What makes you think this "dilemma" is healer specific?</p><p>Replace the word heals for DPS, and the statement holds equally true. The difference is, when it comes to loot off Munzok and Miragul, us mages don't have a choice to make, we just equip it all.</p>

[profe]

<p>Actually, no, the circumstance of purposefully choosing a lesser stat in order to yield greater gains applies to healers and specifically addresses the difference between incoming spike damage to one ally versus incoming sustained damage to many allies. Unless they like to suck, DPS should only select stats in order to maximize instantaneous damage (which parallels sustained damage) and is quite easily calculable. The point of my post was to refute the idea that "healers got screwed" wherein I show how we received some much needed variety.</p>

[Pervis]

<p><cite>profe wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Actually, no, the circumstance of purposefully choosing a lesser stat in order to yield greater gains applies to healers and specifically addresses the difference between incoming spike damage to one ally versus incoming sustained damage to many allies. Unless they like to suck, DPS should only select stats in order to maximize instantaneous damage (which parallels sustained damage) and is quite easily calculable. The point of my post was to refute the idea that "healers got screwed" wherein I show how we received some much needed variety.</blockquote><p>Actually, no.</p><p>This still applies to all DPS, and for similar reasons. As an example, on my wizard, on AE encounters, I want a lot more reuse reduction items than would be practicle for a single target fight. I will equip items with reuse speed over items with otherwise better effects in order to get that.</p><p>This applies in an almost identicle manner as it does to healers. When you have a group to heal, you want to heal fast, when you have one target to heal, you want to heal big. When I have a group of mobs to hit, I want to hit fast, when I have one mob to hit, I want to hit big.</p><p>While the practicle gains in both your situation and mine are small, it is those small gains that set players appart. Using loot from Munzok and Miragul, I am able to gear out for both fast hitting and big hitting at the same time.</p><p>You are not able to equip both fast healing and big healing items from Miragul and Munzok at the same time. Hence this thread.</p>

[Vual]

<div><p><cite>profe wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Funny, I got the impression that everyone except healers got screwed. The classic dilemma for maximizing heals is choosing between base/mod/bonus/crit (size) and reuse/cast (speed). The circumstances determine which one is the most important. With the drops from Miragul's and Munzok's, we can rise to the occasion.</p><p>Neck:Talisman of the Prime Healer, Munzok (size)Choker of Memories, Miragul (speed)</p><p>Ear:aITEM 273246243 890145727:[Hoop of Hope]/a, Qxectus (size and bonus stifle immunity)aITEM 1163785546 -116266709:[Loop of Frozen Memories]/a, Haladan Enraged (speed)</p><p>Secondary:aITEM -1892643530 -1411917123 82533628:Baneward, Barrier of Shadow/a, Munzok (size)aITEM 1776875071 414451537:[Iced Buckler of Reminiscence]/a, Haladan Enraged (speed)</p></blockquote></div><p><span style="color: #ffffff;">Neck:</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffffff;">We can only equip one and in almost every case the Choker is the obvious choice.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffffff;">Ear:</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffffff;">We already have avatar earring, zarrakon earring, and then for munzok we are forced to wear his earring that is pretty much crap, these two are essentially a waste, the only one worth wearing is the loop and you can only really put it on for easy mobs</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffffff;">Secondary:</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffffff;">Ummm you must not be a healer? the SOH shield is arguably better than BOTH of those, definately the first one, and better than haladans in different situations</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffffff;">so QUIT giving us SIDEGRADES that we would almost NEVER use, we get ONE decent item between both of the hardest mobs in the game as Opposed to what Pervis pointed out, mages who just put on everything from these mobs because they are ALL UPGRADES</span></p>

[Quicksilver74]

<p><cite>Vual@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>@Crabbok - Yes I know there is undiscovered loot, aside from the possibility of a healer mount though I doubt any more healer items are left to be discovered on these mobs, 2 Items for each class on each mob seems to be the usual for SOE recently (excluding items like mounts)</p></blockquote><p>Maybe, but I happen to know there is a 1 handed crush weapon, which is more of a brawler weapon but I'm pretty sure it's priest useable. </p>

[Vual]

<p><cite>Crabbok@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vual@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>@Crabbok - Yes I know there is undiscovered loot, aside from the possibility of a healer mount though I doubt any more healer items are left to be discovered on these mobs, 2 Items for each class on each mob seems to be the usual for SOE recently (excluding items like mounts)</p></blockquote><p>Maybe, but I happen to know there is a 1 handed crush weapon, which is more of a brawler weapon but I'm pretty sure it's priest useable. </p></blockquote><p>Because crush weapons are just what us priests are after <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Lethe5683]

<p><cite>Vual@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So for now the two hardest mobs in the game are Munzok and Miragul.</p><p>They both drop some nice pieces for every class except healers pretty much got left with 1 nice item between both mobs compared to the <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">5</span> <span style="color: #00ccff;">4</span> items scouts and tanks get get...</p></blockquote><p>You only listed 4 items not 5.</p>

[LardLord]

<p>If you consider that the drops from Enraged Haladan provide end-game upgrades for healers (shield and earring) while the scout/fighter(and mage?) drops from that mob are situational or incremental upgrades, the situation doesn't look quite so bleak.</p><p>Plus, I'd say that part of the reason Miragul's priest charm doesn't look so great to you is that the healer charms from avatars survived the nerfs a little better than the others.  While the damage reduction on the fighter charm seems better than any of the similar bonuses for the other archetypes, the mage and scout charms pretty well mirror what healers got.</p>

[Pervis]

<p><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>If you consider that the drops from Enraged Haladan provide end-game upgrades for healers (shield and earring) while the scout/fighter(and mage?) drops from that mob are situational or incremental upgrades, the situation doesn't look quite so bleak.</blockquote><p>Actually, it still looks the same, if not worse.</p><p>One of the items from Enraged, as you said yourself, is a shield. Hey guess what! munzok has a shield too!</p><p>That said, the item quality of items on Enraged vs the item quality of item on Munzok or Miragul is much lower. While Enraged items may have an itemization total of 100 "points' (arbitrary number, as we do not know the actual numbers), Miragul and Munzok would be closer to 120 points.</p><p>The reason Enraged was not included in the OP is simply because his loot is on par with Anushti loot, not Miragul or Munzok, which is a definate step above.</p><p>If we were to follow your logic here, we would arrive at the eventual understanding that there are no itemization issues, as there is a best-in-slot item for every single slot in the game. If thats what you want to think, more power to you imo.</p>

[LardLord]

<p><cite>Pervis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If we were to follow your logic here, we would arrive at the eventual understanding that there are no itemization issues</p></blockquote><p>Not really, but sorry to interrupt your complaining <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p><p>(By the way, I agree it's dumb to have two almost equally great necklaces but only one high-end ring.  However, I think it's worthwhile to look at more than one "level" of itemization at a time, while you apparently do not.)</p>

[Pervis]

<p><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Pervis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If we were to follow your logic here, we would arrive at the eventual understanding that there are no itemization issues</p></blockquote><p>Not really, but sorry to interrupt your complaining <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p><p>(By the way, I agree it's dumb to have two almost equally great necklaces but only one high-end ring.  However, I think it's worthwhile to look at more than one "level" of itemization at a time, while you apparently do not.)</p></blockquote><p>I've always said instanced raid itemization needs to be looked at as a whole. That has not changed.</p><p>As a whole, healer based instanced raid itemization has 4 items. These are the drops from Munzok and Miraguls. Everything else that drops off instanced raid is < top end.</p><p>As a mage, I have 4 top end instanced items as well, but I can equip all of them. Saying its ok that healers have 2 top end instanced neckalaces because they have a less than top end earring that drops off a less than top end mob seems, at least to me, rather an odd thing to say.</p>

[LardLord]

<p><cite>Pervis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As a mage, I have 4 top end instanced items as well, but I can equip all of them.</p></blockquote><p>So you aren't one of the mages who complains how the Ykesha and Miragul belts are too similar? 'Cause that would be a lot like these healer complaints.</p><p>I'm not trying to say itemization is perfect, but I don't think healers are "screwed" by it more than anyone else, really.</p>

[Pervis]

<p><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>So you aren't one of the mages who complains how the Ykesha and Miragul belts are too similar? 'Cause that would be a lot like these healer complaints.</blockquote><p>Nope, because if I did, I would also complain about Anushti and munzok necks.</p><p>Munzok and Miragul are the top end instanced mobs in the game right now. When talking about top end instanced loot (not the best item for each slot, but rather the small number of actual top end instanced items), these are teh two mobs that count.</p><p>In my opinion, they are the only two mobs in the game that should have gear better than avatar gear, and them having a drop that makes an item that drops off a lesser encounter is not only expected, but an actual certianty.</p><p>Again, this is why Enraged loot has no bearing on this discussion, he is not top end.</p>

[Vual]

<p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vual@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So for now the two hardest mobs in the game are Munzok and Miragul.</p><p>They both drop some nice pieces for every class except healers pretty much got left with 1 nice item between both mobs compared to the <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">5</span> <span style="color: #00ccff;">4</span> items scouts and tanks get get...</p></blockquote><p>You only listed 4 items not 5.</p></blockquote><p>The fifth item is the mount - yeah that's pushing it because it's a mount but *shrug* I'm counting it!</p><p>and the second mount of munzok we discovered yesterday, nothing to do with healers so unless there is a 3rd mount still only 1decent healer item among the two mobs</p><p>@people saying haladan has good healer loot</p><p>and as for haladan enraged, as I've already pointed out the earring is not as good as zarrakon, and we already have zarrakon, avatar, and then sometimes we are forced to put on munzok quested one that we wear, occasionally I wear the enraged one but more often than not i'm rolling zarrakon/avatar or zarrakon/munzok</p><p>and as for the shield, it's good for templars, for other classes soh shield is often the preferred shield</p><p>@people saying the healer neck is so GODLY it makes up for the other pieces of crap we get...</p><p>The only reason the necklaces are considered really good is because we've needed a decent necklace for a LONG time, people still wear the necklace from PR for the heal mod... yet another ROK item we've had to endure for almost two expansions</p><p>The proc on the necklaces aren't much better than the proc on the avatar chain BP, and most people don't even wear that BP anymore since nerfs. The necklaces are in the same boat, once people get over all the hype about having a new item to upgrade our old ROK stuff, they'll realize it really isn't anything all that special, how many ward items do we have now? 4-5 that people wear regularly...</p><p>AND @ whoever said our charm seems so bad because our avatar charms weren't nerfed as bad...</p><p>I'm not sure what makes you think our's weren't nerfed as bad? maybe you fail to realize that the majority of the stats on them we already have capped, and the procs on them are mediocre at best. (rodcet nife proc is a joke)</p><p>EXCLUDING the miragul charm, out of the two choices for my charm slot neither would be a good avatar charm. (Anashti + octagon, from one of the joke mobs in miragulx4 instance)</p>