Guards vs SK [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Disma

10-23-2009, 11:56 PM

Warriors, especially guardians, used to be the best raid tanks and other tanks needed to be adjusted to bring them in line with warriors. I remember a time when Crusaders could not use bows and the best shields they could use were kite shields, this was unfair and a change was needed and a change was implemented. I am not asking that anyone be nerfed I would rather warriors be brought up to the same level as crusaders. Nothing a Guardian gets even comes close to a Shadowknight's Grave Sacrament threat increase. In the screenshot Provoke is a M2 and is the highest threat increase a Guardian gets besides rescue. Unyeilding Will is a death save like Bloodletter but the Guardian spell only heals for 40% health and kills the caster on termination. The single target taunt, Insidious Whisper, Sks get has a higher base value than the Guard one. Dps=hate and I have seen crusaders do 10-12k dps and with their taunts already at a higher base value this is just another slap in the face to Guardians. Taunts need to be the same base vaule but have a different effect like debuffs, interrupts, or stuns and if there is damage they all need to have the same damage values.This does not include the other things they get like Deathmarch which makes them and their group immune to control effects for 10 seconds. A guardian has a group intercept, but if you are fighting a mob with an aoe its an instant death as the damage to the guardian is unmitigated(not absorbed by armor) and only has a chance to proc when it is up. Divine aura which is a 100% parry is much like the warrior endline Dragoon's Reflexes, but their is one significant difference, a warrior cannot cast and does not autoattack while Dragoon's Reflexes is active. An Sks mythical also has a proc that gives them 300% of the health they are healed for with life taps in hate with this active Harmtouch would be one of the highest hate increases in the game. The damage and 300% of what it healed the Sk for would all be turned to hate. A class that has no problem holding agro is given yet another tool to do so. Guardian myths proc an immunity to control effects and makes them immune to riposte damage, but in the Guardian tree one of the end line abilities is Cripple and reduces damage of ripostes by 75%. I also play a Mythical wiz and I wont hardly go to a heroic zone with a Guardian anymore. Guardians have rely too much on hate transfers and gains from other classes to keep hate and have agro control problems in heoric zones. Seriously nobody has questioned why there are so many crusaders right now???? Not only are Crusaders the the best agro controlling tanks, but their solo ability right now is insane with their heals, dps, and plate mitigation.<img src="http://i829.photobucket.com/albums/zz220/magicman3030/EQ2_000001.jpg?t=1256356104" width="1022" height="612" />EDIT: Made the picture bigger

Bruener

10-25-2009, 05:03 PM

Hhhmmmm what do we see when we look at this.....A lvl 52 ability compared to a lvl 68 ability.An inflated SK ST taunt, its probably the threat it would do for a Guard. Believe me I have the spell mastered and my stats are very high and it is 500 less threat.A level 35 ability compared to a level 80 ability.A SK Mythical which has less overall stats and less survivability.Do you even try to compare Apples to Apples?What about the fact that GS is tremendously situational. Half the time I can't pop it because its like Zerker Gibe where it will pull mobs you don't want to pull. As an OT the last thing you want to do is rip the named off the MT and wipe the raid.But, go ahead and keep posting what you don't seem to know about.

Disma

10-25-2009, 05:47 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hhhmmmm what do we see when we look at this.....A lvl 52 ability compared to a lvl 68 ability.An inflated SK ST taunt, its probably the threat it would do for a Guard. Believe me I have the spell mastered and my stats are very high and it is 500 less threat.A level 35 ability compared to a level 80 ability.A SK Mythical which has less overall stats and less survivability.Do you even try to compare Apples to Apples?What about the fact that GS is tremendously situational. Half the time I can't pop it because its like Zerker Gibe where it will pull mobs you don't want to pull. As an OT the last thing you want to do is rip the named off the MT and wipe the raid.But, go ahead and keep posting what you don't seem to know about.</blockquote>Ya what DO we see here, a 52 level ability comapred to a 68 level ability and a 35 ability compared to an 80 one BECAUSE these are the closest thing that a guardian gets to those SK ablities, and thus was the point of my post. The level 35 spell is the only death save a guard gets so there is NO level 80 spell that I can compare to Bloodletter. Reinforcement is a level 52 ability and increases threat priority by 1 position same as Grave Sacrament but only has a threat increase of 610 while Grave Sacrament is 4-5k. As for the threat values, they are more for my guardian BECAUSE of an aa in my group setup that I have that increases base threat values. I see you totally ignored the fact that a Master 2 taunt, which is the highest threat increase ability that a guardian gets, has less base taunt value than the SK single target taunt that is Master I, but yet a guardian is supposed to be the "best" single target tank. Apples to Apples is exactly what I am comparing we are supposed to both be tank classes. If you are an offtank then no you would not cast grave sacrament...nor would I cast reinforcement...so why even bring it up? A lot of spells are situational I didn't say they weren't, but your AOE taunt works on single targets and AOE encounters, Guardian single target taunts do NOT. There are more aoe and multiple mobe encounters in the game than single target anymore, raid and heroic alike. The main thing I am trying to bring to people's attention is that Sks have more base taunt values on thier abilities and have less of a problem holding agro, while a guardian has to rely on group setup and hate transfers.As far as myth goes I was not even talking about stats...while the Sk myth has less Str Sta and Agi it has Int, which increases spell damage....so why complain about that? The procs are what I was comparing. The 300% in health from life taps added as hate to the mob(PROCS 2.4 TIMES PER MIN), while the guardian one is a 10 second immunity to control effects (PROCS 1.8 TIMES PER MIN) Sk can do this with Death March and TSO aa ability (tso aa is 1 min recast) the guardian myth proc also reduces physical damage done by 5%, and if you really want to compare the rest I will. Sks get a clicky that will absorb all physical attacks if they are greater than 60% of the Sks health(so with KOS, Crusader, and TSO tree this makes 4 absorb abilities an sk can get all on different timers fyi) so the Sk myth has more survivability and it has a 10% hate gain increase at the same time and can be used every 6 minutes. A guardian gets immunity to riposte damage...which I already covered is crap since in our guardian tree we get an ability that reduces riposte damage by 75%....so REALLY which myth would you rather have?????So if you have anymore questions about my post feel free to ask...because I DO know what I am talking about, next time do a little research.But I would really like someone from SOE to comment on this though...Why is there such a difference in threat on these abilities? 4-5k threat vs 610 threat and a M2 taunt less than a M1????????Edited: for spelling errors.

thial

10-26-2009, 05:40 PM

Good luck getting a response from the devs, I made a similar post about this in beta before tso went live, the devs response was that it all is fine but I will tweak if needed, well the tweak is needed and waiting a year + is crap. Sure the devs can give SK's there pet back but they can’t tweak taunts. (Fluff yes but it took time) But it's like beating a dead horse you have incompetent devs in one hand and ignorant players in the other that don't see things both ways.

Nicholai24

10-26-2009, 11:15 PM

ITT: Guardians QQ'ing about the good ol' days of.. err.. every other expansion before TSO.Suck it up, big guys -- I mean, that IS the class description, right?

Disma

10-27-2009, 02:51 PM

<cite>Nicholai24 wrote:</cite><blockquote>ITT: Guardians QQ'ing about the good ol' days of.. err.. every other expansion before TSO.Suck it up, big guys -- I mean, that IS the class description, right?</blockquote>Nowhere in my post did I say bring us back to where we were or to nerf shadowknights. The point of the this post is to show that abilities are way out of balance and the base threat values of similar abilities are insanely different. The thing I said is bring us up to where crusaders especially Sks are on agro control. So you really think a M2 taunt should have a lower threat increase than a M1 taunt and remember this is the HIGHEST threat increase ability a guardian gets besides rescue. I remember countless threads when Sks couldnt use bows or tower shields....then it was we dont have the survivability.......it was unfair and needed a change and it got changed. If all you have to say is QQ without offering anything constructive why even post??????

Bruener

10-27-2009, 05:58 PM

<cite>Dismall@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nicholai24 wrote:</cite><blockquote>ITT: Guardians QQ'ing about the good ol' days of.. err.. every other expansion before TSO.Suck it up, big guys -- I mean, that IS the class description, right?</blockquote>Nowhere in my post did I say bring us back to where we were or to nerf shadowknights. The point of the this post is to show that abilities are way out of balance and the base threat values of similar abilities are insanely different. The thing I said is bring us up to where crusaders especially Sks are on agro control. So you really think a M2 taunt should have a lower threat increase than a M1 taunt and remember this is the HIGHEST threat increase ability a guardian gets besides rescue. I remember countless threads when Sks couldnt use bows or tower shields....then it was we dont have the survivability.......it was unfair and needed a change and it got changed. If all you have to say is QQ without offering anything constructive why even post??????</blockquote>THE TAUNT DOES NOT HAVE A LOWER THREAT AMOUNT!!!! I already told you, as a top geared SK the numbers my taunt show are 500 threat lower than yours. Just because it shows those numbers for you doesn't mean that is what SKs see. The threat number I see is slightly lower the the Guard threat number you see. How well geared are you?So the SK ability shows more hate for you, but SKs actually get less threat from it....and that is unfair? Just because you have to look at the ability and it shows a higher number? Go check out some other abilities too....guess what I bet Ice Comet for you does less damage than what it would for a SK.....OMG.Its getting old having to correct a lot of you and what you assume. GS is completely situational. It does not have the focus that reinforcement has, nor does it have the recast timer Reinforcement has. Bloodletter is a level 80 ability, and you are comparing it to a level 35 ability. What do Guards get at level 80? Recapture? Playing with a Guard that is decent you learn how good of an ability Recapture really is. It is a huge raid saving ability, and the recast on it is pretty fast. Such a nice ability with all these mem-wiping mobs in TSO.Stop bringing up things that are not accurate at all. Guards need more hate, we get it. Not nearly as much as you claim.

Vlahkmaak

10-27-2009, 08:59 PM

Recapture does not put the mob on the guardian - it puts the mob on the OTHER tanks - essentially our end line ability is to give you other tanks even more aggro - get it? It is situaltional - Switchmaster yellow vision is a decent example of when we'd use it. It works on Maestro, Pawbuster back when it was hard, Naga if other tanks are not detrimented too, etc. It raises all other tanks agro - it does not "recapture" the mob and put it on the guardian. Its essentially tank CC for bouncing aggro when needed quickly not for recapturing aggro by the guardain.

Disma

10-28-2009, 01:39 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dismall@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nicholai24 wrote:</cite><blockquote>ITT: Guardians QQ'ing about the good ol' days of.. err.. every other expansion before TSO.Suck it up, big guys -- I mean, that IS the class description, right?</blockquote>Nowhere in my post did I say bring us back to where we were or to nerf shadowknights. The point of the this post is to show that abilities are way out of balance and the base threat values of similar abilities are insanely different. The thing I said is bring us up to where crusaders especially Sks are on agro control. So you really think a M2 taunt should have a lower threat increase than a M1 taunt and remember this is the HIGHEST threat increase ability a guardian gets besides rescue. I remember countless threads when Sks couldnt use bows or tower shields....then it was we dont have the survivability.......it was unfair and needed a change and it got changed. If all you have to say is QQ without offering anything constructive why even post??????</blockquote>THE TAUNT DOES NOT HAVE A LOWER THREAT AMOUNT!!!! I already told you, as a top geared SK the numbers my taunt show are 500 threat lower than yours. Just because it shows those numbers for you doesn't mean that is what SKs see. The threat number I see is slightly lower the the Guard threat number you see. How well geared are you?PUTTING IT HERE TOO SO MAYBE NOW YOU'LL SEE IT GUARDIANS HAVE AN AA THAT INCREASES THREAT VALUES IN THEIR STR LINE I HAD THIS AA WHEN I DID THE SCREENSHOTSo the SK ability shows more hate for you, but SKs actually get less threat from it....and that is unfair? Just because you have to look at the ability and it shows a higher number? Go check out some other abilities too....guess what I bet Ice Comet for you does less damage than what it would for a SK.....OMG.AGAIN THIS IS BECAUSE OF THE STR AAIts getting old having to correct a lot of you and what you assume. GS is completely situational. It does not have the focus that reinforcement has, nor does it have the recast timer Reinforcement has. Bloodletter is a level 80 ability, and you are comparing it to a level 35 ability. What do Guards get at level 80? Recapture? Playing with a Guard that is decent you learn how good of an ability Recapture really is. It is a huge raid saving ability, and the recast on it is pretty fast. Such a nice ability with all these mem-wiping mobs in TSO.Stop bringing up things that are not accurate at all. Guards need more hate, we get it. Not nearly as much as you claim.</blockquote>Ok just gonna repost the screenshot without the AA spec that increases all base threat values so you will shutup about it already. If you would have read before you would have seen I had an AA that increased ALL the values by the same percentage (SK AND GUARD VALUES ALIKE)NOW in this sceenshot all the values should be the same as yours or at least close (THEY MAYBE a little different because of + taunt gear btw looking at THREAT VALUES NOT DAMAGE!!!!) And look not only the SK threat values decreased the guardian ones did too imagine that!! Like I said before, if you had bothered to read I had an AA that increased the threat values, but I guess you only read the parts you want to and just post after that....and recapture is such a great ability (/sarcasm). Ill trade you anytime a deathsave for a crap ability that increases other fighters threat positions.And I already addressed why I am comparing a level 35 ability with an 80 ability that is the ONLY deathsave a guardian gets!!!And the SK taunt is still more than the Guardian one even though the guardian one is a M2 and the other is a M1 and has threat over time increase.So now we have Grave Sacrament threat(never said this was not situational) increase is 3k to 4k while Reinforcement is 492Master I Insidious Whisper 2k to 2500 threat with a threat increase over timeMaster II Provoke is 1500 to 1900 threatIf you would like to make a post and show me what the values are for you go ahead I welcome it until then stop saying you need to correct people you aren't correcting anything or posting anything of value or providing anything to support your claims. Again if you have any questions just ask instead of attacking and assuming I am incorrect when I am not. You were actually incorrect and I showed you in an earlier post that you were but I guess you did not read it. So now I posted this screenshot so you can see the values now without that group aa spec I told you before increased the threat values.Ice Comet would be less for me because my INT is low. Sks also have an AA in the TSO tree that increases base threat value of taunts so your threat values will probably be higher than mine now. Gear with +taunt on it will effect the values as well, and guess whos pvp gear has that??? Oh yea crusaders imagine that(no + taunt stat on guardian pvp armor btw).As for my gear I have full pvp gear for armor and some pvp jewlery and my Myth.<img src="http://i829.photobucket.com/albums/zz220/magicman3030/EQ2_000001-1.jpg?t=1256704437" width="1022" height="604" />Edited for spelling errors....man my spelling sucks lol

Razzak

10-28-2009, 11:56 AM

Guardians are broken. We all know it. I don't see the Devs changing anything until the expansion comes out. Of course, they will most likely not fix Guardians and instead give Brawlers a whole crap load of utility.My opinion: If you roll a Guardian you should be looking to do one thin better than any other class: Tank. We should be the end all be all for tanking. I don't want to hear SK's, Pally's, Zerkers, Monks or Bruisers crying that they should be able to tank just as well because it just should not be. I mean lets face it folks, what else do we have to offer? DPS? Pfft... I'm lucky if I'm able to pull 7k in a raid and that's with BC. Every other tanking class can "fill-in" on a raid spot for extra DPS. When was the last time a Guardian was used to "Fill-in". Boy, we could really use that extra DPS and HP buff that Guardian gives, through him in the scout group. Nope, we tank, plain and simple. At least we are supposed to. I'm not sure what the future holds for us but I for one will stick with it no matter what and roll with the punches.

Disma

10-28-2009, 12:30 PM

<cite>Razzak wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guardians are broken. We all know it. I don't see the Devs changing anything until the expansion comes out. Of course, they will most likely not fix Guardians and instead give Brawlers a whole crap load of utility.My opinion: If you roll a Guardian you should be looking to do one thin better than any other class: Tank. We should be the end all be all for tanking. I don't want to hear SK's, Pally's, Zerkers, Monks or Bruisers crying that they should be able to tank just as well because it just should not be. I mean lets face it folks, what else do we have to offer? DPS? Pfft... I'm lucky if I'm able to pull 7k in a raid and that's with BC. Every other tanking class can "fill-in" on a raid spot for extra DPS. When was the last time a Guardian was used to "Fill-in". Boy, we could really use that extra DPS and HP buff that Guardian gives, through him in the scout group. Nope, we tank, plain and simple. At least we are supposed to. I'm not sure what the future holds for us but I for one will stick with it no matter what and roll with the punches.</blockquote>Your right they are completely broken. What I want to know is how do they expect us to hold agro when our threat values are less AND our dps in in the dirt. I just don't understand it. I have played a guardian since early 2007 and I have enjoyed doing instances and raids with him, but now I wont take him anywhere unless I have a dirge or coercer in the group. There are only two things a tank needs to be able to do: Take a hit and Hold agro thats it. Guards can definitely take a hit but holding agro is tough when your threat values and dps are crap.

Yimway

10-28-2009, 12:37 PM

<cite>Dismall@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your right they are completely broken. What I want to know is how do they expect us to hold agro when our threat values are less AND our dps in in the dirt. I just don't understand it. I have played a guardian since early 2007 and I have enjoyed doing instances and raids with him, but now I wont take him anywhere unless I have a dirge or coercer in the group. There are only two things a tank needs to be able to do: Take a hit and Hold agro thats it. Guards can definitely take a hit but holding agro is tough when your threat values and dps are crap.</blockquote>They expect us to drop the shield which 90% of our survivability is tied to in order to generate sufficient hate to keep the mob interested in us.In truth, its all just punishment to guards that opposed the fighter revamp. They knew when they reverted the round 2 fighter revamp that they needed to revert round 1 as well, but they chose not to.Your broken, you'll continue to be broken until atleast SF.After SF, we'll all have to see what the best MT class will be. In the interim, find some other class to play.

RafaelSmith

10-28-2009, 01:40 PM

All this talk about fighter balance, who is OP, who is not isnt really addressing the main issue. The main issue is that SOE wants the role of tank to be nothing more than a plug in "widget" for a group. They are slowing removing any skill involved in tanking, removing the need for everyone in the group to take part in aggro. Giving SKs over the top aggro...which as many of have seen has very little to do with experience, skill or gear is an example. Fighter Revamp would have been the next phase........turning the rest of us into mindless aggro bots. I cant recall which Dev it was but one of them said something to the effect that they want any fighter regardless of gear-level to be able to tank for any group no matter what the gear level of the others is. SKs can do that now....to a certain degree so can Pallys....my guess is come Feb we all will. Ive moved on to focus on a different class...just do not aprove of the direction they are heading with tanks....personally I think all tanks should be about where Guards are now........we should all have to fight tooth and nail for aggro......we should all require that everyone in the group do their part. Thats not the case anymore with Crusaders....soon for all of us.Also, this whole stat consolidation is just another part of dumbing everything down.

Davngr1

10-29-2009, 07:04 AM

<cite>Nicholai24 wrote:</cite><blockquote>ITT: Guardians QQ'ing about the good ol' days of.. err.. every other expansion before TSO.Suck it up, big guys -- I mean, that IS the class description, right?</blockquote>wow.. people like you are truely noobs to this game. every class in T5 was broken in a good or bad way but either way balance was SHOT guards where JUNK/GARBAGE UNWANTED in DOF.. guards where LACK LUSTER in KOS.. i rember people asking me why? i played a guard if i dont raid.. because they SUCKED, UNLESS THEY HAD A RAID BUFFING THEM.. in EOF all tanks reached a pretty close balance.. yes the mitigation/stat revamp changed all the rules about tanking BUT it worked and there where WORLD CLASS guilds with sk/zerk/pally/guard tanks ALL tanking was balanced. then came ROK a SINGLE targe expansion, i can coun't the multiple mob encounters in ROK on my fingers. guards ar a single target tank.. so finally guards get ONE, JUST ONE!! single target expansion DOF,KOS,EOF where ALL AE HEAVY EXPANSIONS.. YES THE ROK MYTHICAL GUARD WAS OVERPOWERD.. but the regular non-myth guard was NOT!!! so.. HOW DOES THAT ADD UP TO:ITT: Guardians QQ'ing about the good ol' days of.. err.. every other expansion before TSO ??????? it most certainly does not... so please stop being ignorant. the shadow knight is exactly where it should be.. soe finally got it right. but they did not have to break my guard to accomplish it.

Bruener

10-29-2009, 11:28 AM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nicholai24 wrote:</cite><blockquote>ITT: Guardians QQ'ing about the good ol' days of.. err.. every other expansion before TSO.Suck it up, big guys -- I mean, that IS the class description, right?</blockquote>wow.. people like you are truely noobs to this game. every class in T5 was broken in a good or bad way but either way balance was SHOTYes, and Guards were on the very good side of that broken spectrum. guards where JUNK/GARBAGE UNWANTED in DOF..LU 13 all tanks took a hit. In fact some tanks had to put up with the stupid ToT, which was garbage. Guards were still the premier MT of choice. guards where LACK LUSTER in KOS.. i rember people asking me why? i played a guard if i dont raid.. because they SUCKED, UNLESS THEY HAD A RAID BUFFING THEM..KOS. Good old KoS when Warriors were given the OP'd buckler line. Yes, Guards had no problem doing their job in KoS, and Zerkers were pretty sweet. Of course when you could DA almost every attack what a difference that made. in EOF all tanks reached a pretty close balance.. yes the mitigation/stat revamp changed all the rules about tanking BUT it worked and there where WORLD CLASS guilds with sk/zerk/pally/guard tanks ALL tanking was balanced.EOF things did finally seem to come closer together. You could easily swap in either Warrior and get the job done. Paladins got some sweet AAs that really helped them out with survivability. Again, an expansion where level cap did not increase and finally moving far into diminishing returns things started leveling out. then came ROK a SINGLE targe expansion, i can coun't the multiple mob encounters in ROK on my fingers. guards ar a single target tank.. so finally guards get ONE, JUST ONE!! single target expansion DOF,KOS,EOF where ALL AE HEAVY EXPANSIONS.. ROK was hands down the Guards x-pac by a mile. The expansion was basically all ST. And no, DOF,KOS,EOF were not AE heavy expansions. They just happened to have some AE encounters. TSO is an AE heavy expansion. So finally an AE heavy xpac was introduced. YES THE ROK MYTHICAL GUARD WAS OVERPOWERD.. but the regular non-myth guard was NOT!!!Words cannot describe how awesome the Guard Mythical was compared to the other tanks. Things become so backwards because of it. I remember SKs, the offensive tanks, going to second to the bottom in DPS, second only to Paladins. Guard Mythical provided Guards with top DPS for fighters, the BEST survivability, and Hate was no problem. Add in the fact that the game was almost all ST and you had a tank that was lightyears ahead of the other 3. so.. HOW DOES THAT ADD UP TO:ITT: Guardians QQ'ing about the good ol' days of.. err.. every other expansion before TSO ??????? it most certainly does not... so please stop being ignorant. the shadow knight is exactly where it should be.. soe finally got it right. but they did not have to break my guard to accomplish it.</blockquote>People seem to have pretty short memories. False statements to boost arguments that might be true. I agree Guards could use a little love in the hate department....especially at the Heroic level. But posting this junk about previous expansions is not going to help. Other tanks lived in the shadow of Guards since launch. You are not going to get sympathy from other classes about previous expansions because most people remember what Guards really had.

RafaelSmith

10-29-2009, 02:01 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>But posting this junk about previous expansions is not going to help.</blockquote>Pot meet kettle?

Wasuna

10-29-2009, 02:25 PM

I didn't agree that Guardians were the only tank of choice during the various changes/expansions of the game. I do not agree that Crusaders are the tank of choice now.Make my Guardian viable in terms of hate generation so that I can experiance the game like all classes are suppose to be able to do. SOE has designed a game and set expectations(sp?) with SK agro that just do not allow most other tanks to be acceptable. Not only that, Guardian hate generations means that we specifically can not group with certin classes, like warlocks.I ran a TSO instance with my Troubador last night and the group had a Guardian tank. The tank did not have hate transfer, corercer or dirge. We just had my hate reduction song. It was very painful to watch. The wizard and conjour died several times and had countless close calls. I have run Mistmyr Manor with my Troubador with an SK tank without a corercer, dirge or hate transfer and he would run into the room, agro everything and AoE it till it was all dead.If SOE says that is an acceptable balance then they are either doing drugs or play an SK.Fix it.

Davngr1

10-29-2009, 08:15 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>LU 13 all tanks took a hit. In fact some tanks had to put up with the stupid ToT, which was garbage. Guards were still the premier MT of choice. in DoF guards where useless. sure some raid guilds might have used them but the class was junk.expansion 1= not a guard expansionKOS. Good old KoS when Warriors were given the OP'd buckler line. Yes, Guards had no problem doing their job in KoS, and Zerkers were pretty sweet. Of course when you could DA almost every attack what a difference that made. again for guards KoS was not a good expansion for guard. sure raids used them but the other 90% of the content? offensive tanks and the mighty pally ruled. expansion 2 = not a guard expansion TSO is an AE heavy expansion. So finally an AE heavy xpac was introduced. i think we can agree that this is not a guard expansion, right?expansion 4 = not a guard expansion</blockquote>People seem to have pretty short memories. False statements to boost arguments that might be true. nothing outlined in my post was false, not one thing.. i belive a vast majority suffer from limited memory as opposed to short. guardian was the tank of choice for a "limited" facet of the game. how much end game raiding was going on in these expansions? less then 10% how many casual raid forces insisted on having a guardian because sk/pally/zerk could just simply not tank low end raid content? i never heard of it, did you? did anyone? RoK was an abismal time for SK no one ever said other wise, you can go into old threads and you wont find [Removed for Content] saying "SK are fine" and suck up SK's~ that's why it's so furstrating when people try to live the entire game in one expansion, RoK was in fact the only guard expansion. </blockquote>

Bruener

10-30-2009, 01:24 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>LU 13 all tanks took a hit. In fact some tanks had to put up with the stupid ToT, which was garbage. Guards were still the premier MT of choice. in DoF guards where useless. sure some raid guilds might have used them but the class was junk.expansion 1= not a guard expansionKOS. Good old KoS when Warriors were given the OP'd buckler line. Yes, Guards had no problem doing their job in KoS, and Zerkers were pretty sweet. Of course when you could DA almost every attack what a difference that made. again for guards KoS was not a good expansion for guard. sure raids used them but the other 90% of the content? offensive tanks and the mighty pally ruled. expansion 2 = not a guard expansion TSO is an AE heavy expansion. So finally an AE heavy xpac was introduced. i think we can agree that this is not a guard expansion, right?expansion 4 = not a guard expansion</blockquote>People seem to have pretty short memories. False statements to boost arguments that might be true. nothing outlined in my post was false, not one thing.. i belive a vast majority suffer from limited memory as opposed to short. guardian was the tank of choice for a "limited" facet of the game. how much end game raiding was going on in these expansions? less then 10% how many casual raid forces insisted on having a guardian because sk/pally/zerk could just simply not tank low end raid content? i never heard of it, did you? did anyone? RoK was an abismal time for SK no one ever said other wise, you can go into old threads and you wont find [Removed for Content] saying "SK are fine" and suck up SK's~ that's why it's so furstrating when people try to live the entire game in one expansion, RoK was in fact the only guard expansion. </blockquote></blockquote>Repeating it is not going to make it true. Sorry. The fact is RoK was definitely Guard expansion, and all expansions before that were Warrior x-pacs...more times than not with Guards being the FoTM tank class. There wasn't such a thing as AE heavy xpacs until TSO. 2 mobs is not AE heavy. A raid zone that has a few AE encounters is not AE heavy. Go back through the xpacs and count the named encounters that actually have more than 2 mobs in em.And yeah, you can go through the forums about SKs and you will see plenty of Guards, and others, saying SKs are fine...etc. The classic line was well SKs are not real tanks.That being said a lot of people have recognized that Guards could use a little boost for hate, specifically at the heroic level. At the raid level tanks are definitely more balanced than ever. But you guys continuiously are beating a dead horse. SOE has already announced the tank revamp that is going to happen for the next xpac. BETA testing for that is right around the corner and I suggest that all of you that love to keep bringing all this stuff up go and test it out...but my guess is that it is just a lot easier for you to be the squeaky wheel and let others do the work for you. We are near the end of the xpac and it is pretty obvious that the tank changes aren't happening until February. So why keep QQ about it?

Evette23

10-31-2009, 03:20 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>We are near the end of the xpac and it is pretty obvious that the tank changes aren't happening until February. So why keep QQ about it?</blockquote>Why do you bother posting daily on the fighter's board, and now the guard boards? Do you believe someone gives a sht what you have to say?

RafaelSmith

10-31-2009, 06:50 PM

<cite>Evette23 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>We are near the end of the xpac and it is pretty obvious that the tank changes aren't happening until February. So why keep QQ about it?</blockquote>Why do you bother posting daily on the fighter's board, and now the guard boards? Do you believe someone gives a sht what you have to say?</blockquote>Usually when someone has to post on every single thread that points out something....in this case that SKs are in fact OP when compared to the other classes ...spewing the same nonsense its a sign they realize they are OP and are just desperate to keep it that way.I like how he flames someone for bringing up old stuff when all he does himself is constantly bring up how bad poor ol SKs had it in the past and how everyone else deserves to be broken as some sorta 'payment'. Hypocrisy at its worst.If only his dad had been smart and used a rubber.

Bruener

10-31-2009, 09:05 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Evette23 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>We are near the end of the xpac and it is pretty obvious that the tank changes aren't happening until February. So why keep QQ about it?</blockquote>Why do you bother posting daily on the fighter's board, and now the guard boards? Do you believe someone gives a sht what you have to say?</blockquote>Usually when someone has to post on every single thread that points out something....in this case that SKs are in fact OP when compared to the other classes ...spewing the same nonsense its a sign they realize they are OP and are just desperate to keep it that way.I like how he flames someone for bringing up old stuff when all he does himself is constantly bring up how bad poor ol SKs had it in the past and how everyone else deserves to be broken as some sorta 'payment'. Hypocrisy at its worst.If only his dad had been smart and used a rubber.</blockquote>I post on these threads because for one I am bored at the time, for two I get sick of seeing a few "squeaky wheels" posting multiple times about the same issue and using "made-up" facts to support their stupid logic. Third, go count how many threads on the fighter forums are about the similar topic. Everytime a Guard realizes that they suck compared to people that can out-play them for the simple fact they are BETTER, they decide they have to take it to the official boards and complain about their class. If they put half the time that they spent on these boards whining putting it into making themselves a better tank they would realize that things aren't nearly as bad as they say. Than if they read through some of the non-sense that is posted over and over again in thread after thread they might wake up and realize the guys that are agreeing with them don't have a clue.I know it hurts. The sad part is you can go back through my posts and see what I agree with that Guards could use tweaking in, but just because some little t*wat reverts to insulting my parantege I am not going to fold. Oh, look the big bad poster said something mean so maybe that makes all this crap that a few people love to complain about over and over again right. Sure.The first sign of losing an argument is when people constantly have to revert to personal attacks instead. Keep em coming. I am sure that will make you a better player.

Evette23

11-01-2009, 04:28 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>wall of <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>3 out of 10 starsnerf shadowknights btw tbh.

RafaelSmith

11-01-2009, 12:45 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Evette23 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>We are near the end of the xpac and it is pretty obvious that the tank changes aren't happening until February. So why keep QQ about it?</blockquote>Why do you bother posting daily on the fighter's board, and now the guard boards? Do you believe someone gives a sht what you have to say?</blockquote>Usually when someone has to post on every single thread that points out something....in this case that SKs are in fact OP when compared to the other classes ...spewing the same nonsense its a sign they realize they are OP and are just desperate to keep it that way.I like how he flames someone for bringing up old stuff when all he does himself is constantly bring up how bad poor ol SKs had it in the past and how everyone else deserves to be broken as some sorta 'payment'. Hypocrisy at its worst.If only his dad had been smart and used a rubber.</blockquote>I post on these threads because for one I am bored at the time, for two I get sick of seeing a few "squeaky wheels" posting multiple times about the same issue and using "made-up" facts to support their stupid logic. </blockquote>And what "made up" facts would those be? You think the fact that servers are overflowing with SK alts is simply a fluke? Last night alone on my server there were 6 server wide messages about SKs getting their Myth in a row.I have grouped with countless SKs that if it were not for having stupidly easy aggro could not tank their way out of a paper bag.......that had obviously just made their toon because bad players often flock to OP FOTM classes. THe sad part is nobody really cares because of the stupidily easy aggro they get simply for being a SK and having a few plat.......skill not required. I am not actually complaining anymore about my Guard....he is just fine...given a good group with people that want to play classes smartly I do just fine in anything I serve as MT. But when crappy, virgin, FOTM SK alts can do almost as good is a clear sign class needs to be brought down a few notches. Compare a newly minted Guard to a newly minted SK serving as MT for a instance group and tell me things are "ok".

Aull

11-02-2009, 11:00 AM

Humayon

11-02-2009, 11:42 AM

After reading through some of the points made i was surprised how quickly a valid point turns in to an argument. Even if a SOE developer is reading a thread of ours and that's a big if, he/she will lose interest immediately largely due to the counter arguments.That said, does it even matter which tank class was the king in the last expansion? Not really, the fact is and i know people will disagree again that guardians were hard done by this expansion. I don't care if sks are overpowered or not because frankly that is not how a class should be categorised, if a vast majority sees this difference then there must be something wrong. All tank classes should be balanced in such a way that they are unique in their respective way.Nerfing the sk or any other class for that matter is not an option, SOE really needs to think outside the box and make all tank classes functional so that everyone enjoys playing the class.I, myself play a level 80 guard and raid regularly the instanced zones in TSO. I have tanked a lot of things and can say for sure that our ae counterparts have much better aggro control then us and not to mention their survivability is on par with guards if not better. Now, i never would like to see the other classes getting nerf at our expense but rather would like to see the balance. A guard is a defensive tank excelling at weapon skills and in single target confrontations. That is exactly what we should be all about. I don't care if i parse 1000 dps but what i would like to see is that i can take more hits than any other class and hold aggro on single taget like no other.The reality is far from it at the moment and again i cannot emphasise enough that the need to "nerf" another class so the rival class can feel a little better is illogical to say the least.In conclusion, SOE should review all tank classes, i would include brawlers too and fine tune them in such a way that each class has a role which no other class can carry out. It will be difficult but that does not mean its not worth trying.That was my 50 cent worth.P.S on a polite note, with all due respect to all the other tank classes, if you don't play a guard then i fail to see your involvement in this thread.

Aull

11-02-2009, 01:18 PM

Amen. Well said!

Bruener

11-02-2009, 02:29 PM

<cite>Humayon wrote:</cite><blockquote>P.S on a polite note, with all due respect to all the other tank classes, if you don't play a guard then i fail to see your involvement in this thread.</blockquote>When a thread says Guard v. SK why would you think other tanks shouldn't get involved?I agree with a lot of things you said. And like I pointed out on the first page of this forums there are like 7 threads about the same topic. Than you go into the General Fighter forum and there are probably another 7. Furthermore, just because a Guard happens to get replaced by another tank that person feels justified in coming to the boards and complaining that their class is "broken" which is far from the case. The fact is a lot of really good players play other tanks...and probably just hands down do the job better. The best complaint is...well I was MT than my guild recruited a SK that has better gear and he took my spot. Better gear means more play time, means more experience, means just plain better most likely...but somehow that equals Guards being broken.I mean throw it on the table. What do Guards really want? Now take those wants and make them realistic for balance purposes and what do Guards really need? Basically a bump to agro. Problem solved.

RafaelSmith

11-02-2009, 02:31 PM

Its times like this where I really wish we had class "reps" from SOE taking part in each classes forums. I would be happy with some sorta "state of the class" as viewed from SOE..........so we can at least see if everyone is on the same page or not. As for the topic at hand........ask anyone that knows me.......I hate hate hate nerfs but after looking at this whole fighter situation from the perspective of a Gurad and a Assassin that has gotten to group with just about all the fighter types across all levels of play..........the conclusion sadly is that some have it "too good". Its not healthy for the game as a whole to have a tank class that can tank as easily as an SK can with almost no dependency on gear, experience or skill. Guard has to struggle to do its job and no matter how good he/she is they are sill reliant on everyone in the group doing their job......that IMO is how a Tank class should be.Really hate the direction the game is taking.

Bruener

11-02-2009, 03:41 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its times like this where I really wish we had class "reps" from SOE taking part in each classes forums. I would be happy with some sorta "state of the class" as viewed from SOE..........so we can at least see if everyone is on the same page or not. As for the topic at hand........ask anyone that knows me.......I hate hate hate nerfs but after looking at this whole fighter situation from the perspective of a Gurad and a Assassin that has gotten to group with just about all the fighter types across all levels of play..........the conclusion sadly is that some have it "too good". Its not healthy for the game as a whole to have a tank class that can tank as easily as an SK can with almost no dependency on gear, experience or skill. Guard has to struggle to do its job and no matter how good he/she is they are sill reliant on everyone in the group doing their job......that IMO is how a Tank class should be.Really hate the direction the game is taking.</blockquote>It is the direction the game is going though. Did you have a chance to try out the fighter revamp when it was on test? Literally agro was a joke. A legendary geared tank with a taunt macro could hold agro off of raid geared DPS easy...in defensive. No tank is even close to that today. Even Crusaders that have probably the best agro out there can't come close to that. For all the complaints you guys have for SKs being able to do it, they are not doing it with a 1 button macro sittin there in defensive legendary geared holding agro from raid DPS. Raid geared SKs have to work to keep agro from raid geared DPS if they have no transfers.Based on the original fighter revamp SOE is going to basically make Agro easy-mode for everybody. They do not want people to rely on hate transfers, hence the removal of them on the tank revamp. They want legendary geared tanks to be able to hold agro off of raid geared DPS without these transfers. That is messed up.The worst part is the removal of stance dancing and the consolidation of buffs into stances. Expect it to come again, just like the proc nerf and Avatar gear nerf...all SOE really does is delay it and than basically put it back in like it was even against the out-cry of players. The tank revamp will be much, much worse.So, everybody knows it is coming. SOE has announced they are still going to do it around xpac time. Than why do people keep creating threads like this to vent and complain. 7 similar threads on the first page here. More in the general forums. Its not like SOE is going to read the same stuff over and over again. I suggest that everybody, especially tanks, beta test the next xpac and than make sure mass feedback is given. We are talking a much bigger change to tanks than LU 13.

RafaelSmith

11-02-2009, 04:19 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its times like this where I really wish we had class "reps" from SOE taking part in each classes forums. I would be happy with some sorta "state of the class" as viewed from SOE..........so we can at least see if everyone is on the same page or not.As for the topic at hand........ask anyone that knows me.......I hate hate hate nerfs but after looking at this whole fighter situation from the perspective of a Gurad and a Assassin that has gotten to group with just about all the fighter types across all levels of play..........the conclusion sadly is that some have it "too good". Its not healthy for the game as a whole to have a tank class that can tank as easily as an SK can with almost no dependency on gear, experience or skill.Guard has to struggle to do its job and no matter how good he/she is they are sill reliant on everyone in the group doing their job......that IMO is how a Tank class should be.Really hate the direction the game is taking.</blockquote>It is the direction the game is going though. Did you have a chance to try out the fighter revamp when it was on test? Literally agro was a joke. A legendary geared tank with a taunt macro could hold agro off of raid geared DPS easy...in defensive. No tank is even close to that today. Even Crusaders that have probably the best agro out there can't come close to that. For all the complaints you guys have for SKs being able to do it, they are not doing it with a 1 button macro sittin there in defensive legendary geared holding agro from raid DPS. Raid geared SKs have to work to keep agro from raid geared DPS if they have no transfers.Based on the original fighter revamp SOE is going to basically make Agro easy-mode for everybody. They do not want people to rely on hate transfers, hence the removal of them on the tank revamp. They want legendary geared tanks to be able to hold agro off of raid geared DPS without these transfers. That is messed up.The worst part is the removal of stance dancing and the consolidation of buffs into stances. Expect it to come again, just like the proc nerf and Avatar gear nerf...all SOE really does is delay it and than basically put it back in like it was even against the out-cry of players. The tank revamp will be much, much worse.So, everybody knows it is coming. SOE has announced they are still going to do it around xpac time. Than why do people keep creating threads like this to vent and complain. 7 similar threads on the first page here. More in the general forums. Its not like SOE is going to read the same stuff over and over again. I suggest that everybody, especially tanks, beta test the next xpac and than make sure mass feedback is given. We are talking a much bigger change to tanks than LU 13.</blockquote>Yes I did beta the revamp......hated it. About the only good part was the concept of Taunt crits.....but the rest of the changes were horrible. Sure they would have made my job easy........stupidly easy......but thats the last thing I want. Tanking should be a challenging and fun struggle.........not frustrating and surely not boreing and easy.And again your viewpoint is the limited top-end raid view where I can only assume things don't seem as broken as they do everywhere else. But crappy, barely 2-month old SK alts in T2 with Fabled weapon are in fact able to lock aggro down in just about any group without hate xfer.On my server only a few established raid forces run with a Guard....usually a Guard that has been with them the whole time so has had the chance to get the best gear and such. Everyone else runs with a SK....some with SKs that were created recently because its just so much easier for everyone involved. New Guards or Guards that were just starting to serve thier MT roles stand no chance and are quickly swapped out for SK alt #10000. As with everything else people want the quick and easy way.....sadly today that means SK.I really feel kinda bad for the "old timer" SKs out there that actually know what it likes to struggle as a tank....that realize that showboating is not the way to go. A day doesnt go by that I am not in some group, some raid or just general chat where joking about how obsurd SKs are these days isnt commonplace.I am hanging on til expansion just to see how badly they ruin the role of MT. I am more than confident that the majority of the playerbase will welcome mindless easy-mode tanking.

KinMorbidreamer

11-26-2009, 06:12 AM

<cite>Nicholai24 wrote:</cite><blockquote>ITT: Guardians QQ'ing about the good ol' days of.. err.. every other expansion before TSO.Suck it up, big guys -- I mean, that IS the class description, right?</blockquote>This.Everytime another class gets the ability to tank Guardians cry a river. It was the same way in WoW with warriors once paladins got the ability to tank.I'm beginning to think that it takes a certain crybaby mentality to play a warrior in MMOs... maybe thats why I could never stand rolling one.

Xethren

11-26-2009, 10:44 AM

<cite>Iadenie@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nicholai24 wrote:</cite><blockquote>ITT: Guardians QQ'ing about the good ol' days of.. err.. every other expansion before TSO.Suck it up, big guys -- I mean, that IS the class description, right?</blockquote>This.Everytime another class gets the ability to tank Guardians cry a river. It was the same way in WoW with warriors once paladins got the ability to tank.I'm beginning to think that it takes a certain crybaby mentality to play a warrior in MMOs... maybe thats why I could never stand rolling one.</blockquote>We arent crying that other fighter classes can tank. We are up in arms how a SK can hold aggro against a whole group on their own without hate transfers or the needed classes that need to be paired with a Guardian like a coercer or dirge.We are upset that almost the entirety of TSO is heavily encounter based which is the first strike against a Guard since they have very little AE control, so this means that almost no one would run a TSO dungeon with a guard. You could but you would be there all day. Why take a Guard when you can take an SK and the whole group turns into easymode: no one has to watch their aggro, nukers and DPSers can go all out without fear of ripping off the tank.Almost every class can rip off a guard with little effort. Even duoing I cannot pull mobs off my monk friend, and Im spamming my taunts and CA's endlessly.The only thing guards are the best at anymore is taking the hits, but what good is that slight advantage when we cant even keep hate locked down on us. EQ2 has turned into a game of DPS = hate, since Guards have some of the lowest DPS of any class that is another big strike against us.We are still good for tanking kunark dungeons because of the single mob focus, but the group has to watch their aggro meter. People want to do things in the least amount of time possible. Are they going to take a Guard and spend hours trying that TSO dungeon, or take an SK and breeze right through it.I bet you that if you had your own guardian and realized how behind we are at almost everything you wouldnt be trying to bash a busted class further. You go play a class that not many people need anymore and not try to turn things around for it.

Grumpy_Warrior_01

11-26-2009, 12:35 PM

Aull

11-26-2009, 10:19 PM

Next expac if guards start ripping aggro from sk's like sk's do guards now will that constitute that guards are OP like sk's?

Rahatmattata

11-26-2009, 10:27 PM

<cite>Iadenie@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Everytime another class gets the ability to tank Guardians cry a river. It was the same way in WoW with warriors once paladins got the ability to tank.I'm beginning to think that it takes a certain crybaby mentality to play a warrior in MMOs... maybe thats why I could never stand rolling one.</blockquote>Gratz on proving you are a tool. You don't play a guard, so your opinion here means less than squat. I'm beginning to think it takes a certain [Removed for Content] mentality to look like a complete fool in 3 sentences.

Landiin

11-27-2009, 03:59 AM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>Next expac if guards start ripping aggro from sk's like sk's do guards now will that constitute that guards are OP like sk's?</blockquote>Yup, unless the Sk is clearly under geared or skilled. Aggro should be the same across the board for all fighters.

Aull

11-27-2009, 10:25 AM

In all honesty I still think that every fighter should have the capability of holding aggro with good results even if tranfers are not present. I don't think aggro should be super easy either but definately better than what we have now. Once that is achieved each fighter should be known for something special.

Disma

12-07-2009, 04:15 PM

First of all i created this post to show that base threat values on taunts vary from class to class and there is really no reason for this. I did not create this thread to cry and say Crusaders should not be able to tank, but now that they have been given love and can take a hit like the warrior class, the warriors (especially Guards) need to be given some dps love so we can hold agro like they can.It is not uncommon to see a crusader doing 10k-15k dps in a raid situation while tanking, so why are their base threat values on thier taunts higher as well? Crusaders are fine as they are and do not need a nerf what needs to happen is warriors need to be brought up to their level so heroic content and raids are just a little easier to tank. One fighter archetype should not have to rely on threat transfers and group makeup when tanking. As it is now there are two ubertanks that can dps and have great survivablity and have no trouble at all holding agro no matter what situation they are in.The game is at the point now that any fighter can tank any encounter and survive, the focus now needs to be on agro control and balacing the classes this way. A lot of heroic and raid encounters are aoe encounters which most raids and groups will use a crusader or zerker to tank as they have heavy aoe dps and aoe taunts, so why would raids or groups switch between having a Guardian tank one encounter to a Crusader tank the next encounter and so forth? No raid does this, they will just have the aoe crusader tank the single target mobs since aoe taunts are effective against single targets, but this can not work the other way. Single target taunts do not effect aoe encounters. Guardians are the only plate fighter class that does not have aoe taunts. Guards can use the agility aa line and have thier autoattack hit multiple targets in front of them and get an extra aoe ability as well, but this does little to hold aoe agro.I was not calling for a nerf of abilities for any class I was just trying to bring to people's attention that base threat values are vastly different for some reason. It makes no sense to me whatsoever that an aoe tank has a higher base threat increase on a single target taunt ability than a guardian does when the guardian taunt is M2 and the Sk one was just a master 1 it is just mind boggling. And the fact that aoe taunts work on single targets while single target taunts do not will just make them more attractive tanks.And for those of you that think there was nothing wrong with Crusaders their aoe agro has been broken and causing even more threat increase than it was supposed to. This is taken straight from the EQ2 Players page:"First and foremost, we have identified a problem with a couple of abilities for Crusaders; Holy Ground and Grave Sacrament. Those abilities, rather than generating an amount of hate toward the hate list, were in fact moving the crusader up by ranks; thereby practically guaranteeing that crusaders would dominate agro." Read the full article at:<a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/news_archive_content.vm?id=3371&section=News&locale=en_US" target="_blank">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...mp;locale=en_US</a>

Aull

12-07-2009, 04:38 PM

Good post Dismall. I agree with your " It is not uncommon to see a crusader doing 10k-15k dps in a raid situation while tanking, so why are their base threat values on thier taunts higher as well". Being able to hold aggro with dps and have higher taunt values is absurd and that is why we are having issues in todays game. The lower the dps is of an expected fighter class should allow them to have higher taunt values than a fighter know to be higher dps.Many believe that guards shouldn't have it that way cause they are deemed the best raid mt ever, but other crusaders can tank raids too and rock the herioc instances with the greatest of ease. So why can't guards perform as decent in a heroic setting is my argument. I think it would be nice if guards did see increases to their aoe aggro in threat. Not saying that guards should be better but they should be more than capable in a non perfect group setting.

RafaelSmith

12-07-2009, 05:09 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>Good post Dismall. I agree with your " It is not uncommon to see a crusader doing 10k-15k dps in a raid situation while tanking, so why are their base threat values on thier taunts higher as well". Being able to hold aggro with dps and have higher taunt values is absurd and that is why we are having issues in todays game. The lower the dps is of an expected fighter class should allow them to have higher taunt values than a fighter know to be higher dps.Many believe that guards shouldn't have it that way cause they are deemed the best raid mt ever, but other crusaders can tank raids too and rock the herioc instances with the greatest of ease. So why can't guards perform as decent in a heroic setting is my argument. I think it would be nice if guards did see increases to their aoe aggro in threat. Not saying that guards should be better but they should be more than capable in a non perfect group setting.</blockquote>Its the same question ive been asking all along. Why is ok for one fighter type to have been boosted to be fully capable of MTing any raid encounter, remained one of the top two choices for OT, able to put out T2 or better DPS and be superior for group content as well........yet Guard should be content with being "best" choice for a few encounters and worst choice for everything else?I think all fighters should be on equal footing when competing for tanking roles........but it needs to be across all levels of play. Its fine that SKs are now on equal footing for raids......but we need to be on equal footing when competing with them for heroic content. Lets make no bones about it.........filling tank slots for raids and groups needs to be a competition where player skill and gear level is the deciding factor.

MoeSizlak

12-08-2009, 05:36 PM

Interesting statement about HG and GS, thanks for pointing that out, I'd missed it before. The one thing I wonder though is how much it's going to change SKs aggro gen and holding ability. Obviously it's a nerf...but will it be a nerf that will really be felt?I gotta admit though I would LOVE to see all the SKs up in arms about needs aggro buffs all the sudden and just give them a "welcome to our world" response.

Bruener

12-08-2009, 06:30 PM

<cite>Tesar@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Interesting statement about HG and GS, thanks for pointing that out, I'd missed it before. The one thing I wonder though is how much it's going to change SKs aggro gen and holding ability. Obviously it's a nerf...but will it be a nerf that will really be felt?I gotta admit though I would LOVE to see all the SKs up in arms about needs aggro buffs all the sudden and just give them a "welcome to our world" response.</blockquote>Lol, did you just start playing the game in TSO? SKs had more issues than any other tank in RoK. They had the second lowest DPS, worst agro control, and bad survivability. So most of us actually had to deal with issues unlike Guards just having AE agro problems. There a huge gap between what SKs needed and what Guards could use.Furthermore, unlike DPS, hate has a max number of what you need. All the hate above the second person on the hate meter is a waste. Hence, why Guards really don't have an agro problem except when doing lots of AE or from another tank.

Rahatmattata

12-08-2009, 08:00 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hence, why Guards really don't have an agro problem except when doing lots of AE or from another tank.</blockquote>Seriously dude. Maybe you should try and actually play a guardian before you further comment about what it's like to tank with a guard. First of all, if you can't hold aggro from another tank, why not just let the other guy tank? Second, assuming equal gear/skill and no transfers or tank buffs, a guard isn't holding aggro unless ostance + dw. If you have a dirge you can get away with a shield in ostance, or dw in dstance. If you have a dirge + transfer, you can do pretty decent in dstance with shield.In a raid, you aren't holding aggro with templar, defiler, warden, dirge, coercer in dstance with shield unless the raid dps is throttled by running around excetuting scripts or being stifled every 10 seconds. So, you either have to tank in ostance or drop the warden for a swash/assassin. Either way, you are gimping survivability just so you can hold aggro, which makes our sweet survivability advangtage mean squat. It's been said a million times, but for some reason you can't grasp this basic concept of guards having to give up survivability to hold aggro.And really, guard threat in dstance + shield + 3 priests dirge & coercer is fine, assuming other tanks either have the same threat capability OR less survivability. Having to tank with 2 priests and 3 classes buffing your hate because the raid feels like they should be able to go balls out 100% of the time is [Removed for Content]. Either buff guard hate/dps so they can do it with 3 priests while staying defensive, or nerf crusader hate, or nerf crusader survivability, or boost guard survivability even more.

Bruener

12-08-2009, 08:28 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hence, why Guards really don't have an agro problem except when doing lots of AE or from another tank.</blockquote>Seriously dude. Maybe you should try and actually play a guardian before you further comment about what it's like to tank with a guard. First of all, if you can't hold aggro from another tank, why not just let the other guy tank? Second, assuming equal gear/skill and no transfers or tank buffs, a guard isn't holding aggro unless ostance + dw. If you have a dirge you can get away with a shield in ostance, or dw in dstance. If you have a dirge + transfer, you can do pretty decent in dstance with shield.In a raid, you aren't holding aggro with templar, defiler, warden, dirge, coercer in dstance with shield unless the raid dps is throttled by running around excetuting scripts or being stifled every 10 seconds. So, you either have to tank in ostance or drop the warden for a swash/assassin. Either way, you are gimping survivability just so you can hold aggro, which makes our sweet survivability advangtage mean squat. It's been said a million times, but for some reason you can't grasp this basic concept of guards having to give up survivability to hold aggro.And really, guard threat in dstance + shield + 3 priests dirge & coercer is fine, assuming other tanks either have the same threat capability OR less survivability. Having to tank with 2 priests and 3 classes buffing your hate because the raid feels like they should be able to go balls out 100% of the time is [Removed for Content]. Either buff guard hate/dps so they can do it with 3 priests while staying defensive, or nerf crusader hate, or nerf crusader survivability, or boost guard survivability even more.</blockquote>Seriously dude. Maybe you should talk to the Guards that do it every day no problem. And no tank tanks in defensive, hit rate drops too much and it is not worth the very small amount of survivability it gives ya. Furthermore, why do you need 3 healers? There are very few instances where you would throw the warden in the MT group. But yes, a Guard with dirge/coercer/warden/defiler/templar can hold agro off of a high DPS'ing raid. The ones that would give him problems with hate are the other fighters. Think Trumak said it best in a post saying he has no problems holding agro. Guess maybe he just knows what he is doing. The fact is you only need enough agro to be just above the highest agro generating DPS class. Other tanks with more agro learn to control and ride the hate meter below you, usually giving up hate buffs to make sure of it.So please don't bring up D-stance. No tank uses D-stance.

Rahatmattata

12-09-2009, 03:32 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Think Trumak said it best in a post saying he has no problems holding agro. Guess maybe he just knows what he is doing.</blockquote><blockquote>I don't know who your buddy is, but I don't think any guard has problems holding aggro in ostance with a coercer, dirge, and assassin. Plenty of tanks use dstance. Maybe not when you are in T4 gear and have really sweet jewelery, but if you're getting your as handed to you and you stay in ostance you are re tarded. Takes two clicks.</blockquote>

Landiin

12-09-2009, 12:14 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Think Trumak said it best in a post saying he has no problems holding agro. Guess maybe he just knows what he is doing.</blockquote><blockquote>I don't know who your buddy is, but I don't think any guard has problems holding aggro in ostance with a coercer, dirge, and assassin. Plenty of tanks use dstance. Maybe not when you are in T4 gear and have really sweet jewelery, but if you're getting your as handed to you and you stay in ostance you are re tarded. Takes two clicks.</blockquote></blockquote>Don't let Bruener tweak you, he is a tool and likes to hear his self talk. EVERYONE knows we have issues holding aggro except a few people like Breuener that can't seem to grasp it. Best thing to to is not to feed the troll.

Davngr1

12-09-2009, 01:10 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't know who your buddy is, but I don't think any CLASS has problems holding aggro in ostance with a coercer, dirge, and assassin. Plenty of tanks use dstance. Maybe not when you are in T4 gear and have really sweet jewelery, but if you're getting your as handed to you and you stay in ostance you are re tarded. Takes two clicks.</blockquote> with that set up a fregging cleric could hold agro.. lol

Bruener

12-09-2009, 01:26 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Think Trumak said it best in a post saying he has no problems holding agro. Guess maybe he just knows what he is doing.</blockquote><blockquote>I don't know who your buddy is, but I don't think any guard has problems holding aggro in ostance with a coercer, dirge, and assassin. Plenty of tanks use dstance. Maybe not when you are in T4 gear and have really sweet jewelery, but if you're getting your as handed to you and you stay in ostance you are re tarded. Takes two clicks.</blockquote></blockquote>Lol, what it takes 2 clicks to toggle D-stance for a few seconds and than 2 clicks right back to O-stance. D-stance is a waste 99% of the time, and you will be using O-stance. With a correct set up and fighter can hold agro easily. So I corrected him because he stated with an awesome set-up he could not hold agro. Well maybe the problem is that he is sitting in D-stance and not actually balancing hate with survivability. Cause 99% of the time D-stance is not worth using.

RafaelSmith

12-09-2009, 04:40 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote> With a correct set up and fighter can hold agro easily. So I corrected him because he stated with an awesome set-up he could not hold agro. Well maybe the problem is that he is sitting in D-stance and not actually balancing hate with survivability. Cause 99% of the time D-stance is not worth using.</blockquote>Once again your speaking from a vary narrow point of view....where top end gear and absolute optimal group construction is the norm.I dont know how many times it needs to be mentioned but the problems Guards are facing outside of that environment are real and not in balance with the other fighter types. You say things are fine......ok they are at your level........but they are not elsewhere. Good balance needs to be uniform across all levels of play and its currently not...in fact it gets more and more out of whack the lower you go. What a newly minted SK with very little actual experience is able to get away with in terms of effectively tanking groups or beginner raids like WoE is absurd. Everyone that actually looks at the game across all levels of play knows it.

Bruener

12-09-2009, 06:25 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote> With a correct set up and fighter can hold agro easily. So I corrected him because he stated with an awesome set-up he could not hold agro. Well maybe the problem is that he is sitting in D-stance and not actually balancing hate with survivability. Cause 99% of the time D-stance is not worth using.</blockquote>Once again your speaking from a vary narrow point of view....where top end gear and absolute optimal group construction is the norm.I dont know how many times it needs to be mentioned but the problems Guards are facing outside of that environment are real and not in balance with the other fighter types. You say things are fine......ok they are at your level........but they are not elsewhere. Good balance needs to be uniform across all levels of play and its currently not...in fact it gets more and more out of whack the lower you go. What a newly minted SK with very little actual experience is able to get away with in terms of effectively tanking groups or beginner raids like WoE is absurd. Everyone that actually looks at the game across all levels of play knows it.</blockquote>This is not a narrow view-point at all. The fact is at level cap, 80, you know where everybody has been playing and where the majority of your playing will happen. At cap 99% of the time defensive stance is not worth going into. The loss to DPS/agro is not worth the very small survivability increase. This is very common knowledge.It is also very common knowledge that a monkey could hold agro with a group set up of coercer/dirge/assassin. So, instead of throwing outrageous claims out there and asking for the moon I corrected what was obviously a false statement. Tweaks, not revamps are needed.

Landiin

12-09-2009, 07:14 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote> So, instead of throwing outrageous claims out there and asking for the moon I corrected what was obviously a false statement. Tweaks, not revamps are needed.</blockquote>Why not you do ever post you make..

Rahatmattata

12-09-2009, 11:15 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>instead of throwing outrageous claims out there and asking for the moon I corrected what was obviously a false statement. Tweaks, not revamps are needed.</blockquote>Asking to be able to tank in dstance, sword & borad, with 3 priests, dirge, and coercer is asking for the moon, and requires a revamp huh? Whatever you say champ.You didn't correct a false statement, you simply squeezed out a pile of steaming crap that has nothing to do with what I was talking about. You said defensive stance is useless and you saw some guy post on the forums that he can hold aggro. That's nice but has nothing to do with what I said. I can "hold aggro" too.This will probably be way far beyond your feeble grasp of common sense, but guards like to get as defensive as possible. There's something satisfying for a certain type of player that plays a pure tank capable of maximizing defense and survivability. When players want to be the biggest, hardest to kill tank, they pick a guardian. There is no other reason to roll a guard over another class in the game, unless you just have a hard-on for the class helm or epic weapon appearance. Guards put up with being a terrible class solo. They don't mind having less dps and very little utility. They don't mind not being able to lock down five million mobs with the push of a single button. They are satisfied in just knowing they survived an encounter when any other tank would have gone down like a ton of bricks.Anyway, you are a waste of time.

Bruener

12-10-2009, 12:11 AM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>When players want to be the biggest, hardest to kill tank, they pick a guardian. There is no other reason to roll a guard over another class in the game, unless you just have a hard-on for the class helm or epic weapon appearance. Guards put up with being a terrible class solo. They don't mind having less dps and very little utility. They don't mind not being able to lock down five million mobs with the push of a single button. They are satisfied in just knowing they survived an encounter when any other tank would have gone down like a ton of bricks.</blockquote>Wow, its about time you admitted what I have been saying. This is what people should roll Guards for, and this is exactly how Guards are designed. They are the biggest, hardest to kill tank. Hence, the popular pick for MT still. So, just like since launch this is what Guards have been designed for and what their niche is. So why do they think they need OT tools. Or why do they think they should excel in heroic where survivability is hardly an issue?This is what I have been telling you. And you just admitted it. People should roll Guards to MT. That is what they do, the best. Stop expecting everything else. 1 tank to fit the MT spot. 3 plates to fit the OT spot. That is 3 competing for 1 spot. When survivability is less of an issue (heroic) the 3 are better choices.STOP ROLLING GUARDS TO NOT MT.

RafaelSmith

12-10-2009, 12:36 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>When players want to be the biggest, hardest to kill tank, they pick a guardian. There is no other reason to roll a guard over another class in the game, unless you just have a hard-on for the class helm or epic weapon appearance. Guards put up with being a terrible class solo. They don't mind having less dps and very little utility. They don't mind not being able to lock down five million mobs with the push of a single button. They are satisfied in just knowing they survived an encounter when any other tank would have gone down like a ton of bricks.</blockquote>Wow, its about time you admitted what I have been saying. This is what people should roll Guards for, and this is exactly how Guards are designed. They are the biggest, hardest to kill tank. Hence, the popular pick for MT still. So, just like since launch this is what Guards have been designed for and what their niche is. So why do they think they need OT tools. Or why do they think they should excel in heroic where survivability is hardly an issue?This is what I have been telling you. And you just admitted it. People should roll Guards to MT. That is what they do, the best. Stop expecting everything else. 1 tank to fit the MT spot. 3 plates to fit the OT spot. That is 3 competing for 1 spot. When survivability is less of an issue (heroic) the 3 are better choices.STOP ROLLING GUARDS TO NOT MT.</blockquote>Ok fine........nerf SKs enough so they cannot serve as raid MTs........so they are forever stuck running heroic instances .......then things are fair? I mean if a Guards only purpose in life is to MT raids then nobody else should be able to fill that slot.Being an SK I am sure you simply forget that being a effective MT involves more than just having high mit %. See you get to have pretty close to Guard surviveability.......and many would argue in some cases higher surviveability that actually matters........over the top DPS......which equals over the top aggro. You take all that stuff for granted. Yes in raids.....for an MT.........DPS and Aggro are rather insignificant.......because your there to take the hits........everyone else handles the DPS and aggro for whichever tank is MT. The acronym MT does not just apply to raids you know? Groups need MTs..........small raids need MTs.......How are things balanced when your class gets all the tools to be effecitve regardless of content while mine only gets tools for raids......and then its only a small segment of raids where those tools actually make a difference?All the mit and avoidance in the world is totally and completely useless if the mobs are off beating on the healer, the warlock and everyone in between. Again you take this stuff for granted......easy mode self generated aggro + more than enough surviveability + stupidly crazy DPS.You are without a doubt one the most closed minded selfish self absorbed players I have come across in any game.

Rahatmattata

12-10-2009, 02:19 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guards have been designed for and what their niche is. So why do they think they need OT tools. Or why do they think they should excel in heroic where survivability is hardly an issue?</blockquote>The same reason shadowknights think they need MT tools. Any fighter should be able to fullfill the job of MT, OT, or emergancy snap tank, with varying degrees of effectiveness. If guards are the best suited fighter for main tanking raids, they should be the least effective OT... but they should be able to do it somewhat effectively. Which they can for the most part, it's just fights like the overking and avatars that have continuous waves of adds where they are all but useless. Again, guards need a small boost to AoE threat.I don't believe guards should excel in heroic content. They should be able to get the job done without having to have the best obtainable gear from heroic content and a perfect group setup, but leave the "excelling in heroic content" to crusaders and zerkers.Regardless of all this crap no dev is going to bother to read, the bottom line is shadowknight is the best fighter for soloing, pvp, and anything having to do with tanking, except main tanking progression raid mobs... and even that can be debated. I'm sure in Brownie's fantasy island all is well and balanced, but in the real world we call this overpowered.Gratz on once again proving you are a fool.

Bruener

12-10-2009, 12:08 PM

Ok, here is the problem. We are at the end of a 2 year level cap of 80. Everybody is so far into diminishing returns that since we are at the end things have started sweeping over to tanks that hold agro more over pure survivability. This is common and part of the problem with the whole diminishing returns mechanic.Now, in February level cap is increasing to level 90. Once again survivability will straight up be king. Temp mit buffs are going to have some real meaning. With a couple minor tweaks to agro Guards are going to be just fine, and at raids are going to be obvious choices for MT still, even more so than now.Furthermore Gaylon your argument for SKs being MT is not accurate at all. Its not like SKs are given tons of tools to MT, what they have is awesome agro and some people like that instead of actually working progression. They would rather just have a tank they can throw in there with a less than ideal set-up to hold agro off the wizards that can't get link. There are just as many Zerkers and Paladins MT, and they actually have better survivability. Paladins take less damage and have even easier agro control. Zerker with Adrenaline are also good choices for MT compared to SKs. However, the best choice is still Guards because they do have enough agro to hold mobs from very high DPS in correct set-ups and they do handle damage the best. It is not a secret.That being said, yes at the end of 2 years everybody being level 80 and even the brawlers climbing real high into diminishing returns for mit things have swung towards the tanks that just plan hold agro the best. Its because at group level a Wizards could tank with a good healer. Please don't forget that there is a level increase right around the corner and that alone is going to mean an expansion where survivability is once again king of all. Mit is not going to be as easily capped. Soaking more damage is going to be extremely important. Hopefully you guys can understand this.

RafaelSmith

12-10-2009, 12:40 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, here is the problem. We are at the end of a 2 year level cap of 80. Everybody is so far into diminishing returns that since we are at the end things have started sweeping over to tanks that hold agro more over pure survivability. This is common and part of the problem with the whole diminishing returns mechanic.Now, in February level cap is increasing to level 90. Once again survivability will straight up be king. Temp mit buffs are going to have some real meaning. With a couple minor tweaks to agro Guards are going to be just fine, and at raids are going to be obvious choices for MT still, even more so than now.Furthermore Gaylon your argument for SKs being MT is not accurate at all. Its not like SKs are given tons of tools to MT, what they have is awesome agro and some people like that instead of actually working progression. They would rather just have a tank they can throw in there with a less than ideal set-up to hold agro off the wizards that can't get link. There are just as many Zerkers and Paladins MT, and they actually have better survivability. Paladins take less damage and have even easier agro control. Zerker with Adrenaline are also good choices for MT compared to SKs. However, the best choice is still Guards because they do have enough agro to hold mobs from very high DPS in correct set-ups and they do handle damage the best. It is not a secret.That being said, yes at the end of 2 years everybody being level 80 and even the brawlers climbing real high into diminishing returns for mit things have swung towards the tanks that just plan hold agro the best. Its because at group level a Wizards could tank with a good healer. Please don't forget that there is a level increase right around the corner and that alone is going to mean an expansion where survivability is once again king of all. Mit is not going to be as easily capped. Soaking more damage is going to be extremely important. Hopefully you guys can understand this.</blockquote>So not only are we suppose to be content with only being useful for raids.......its only until the other tanks have gotten their gear at which point we are back to where we are now...worst choice but for a few select encounters?Thats a really sad way of classs design and balance.

Rahatmattata

12-10-2009, 01:35 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, here is the problem.No, here is the problem. shadowknight is the best fighter for soloing, pvp, and anything having to do with tanking, except main tanking progression raid mobs... and even that can be debated.</blockquote>

Bruener

12-10-2009, 02:12 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, here is the problem. We are at the end of a 2 year level cap of 80. Everybody is so far into diminishing returns that since we are at the end things have started sweeping over to tanks that hold agro more over pure survivability. This is common and part of the problem with the whole diminishing returns mechanic.Now, in February level cap is increasing to level 90. Once again survivability will straight up be king. Temp mit buffs are going to have some real meaning. With a couple minor tweaks to agro Guards are going to be just fine, and at raids are going to be obvious choices for MT still, even more so than now.Furthermore Gaylon your argument for SKs being MT is not accurate at all. Its not like SKs are given tons of tools to MT, what they have is awesome agro and some people like that instead of actually working progression. They would rather just have a tank they can throw in there with a less than ideal set-up to hold agro off the wizards that can't get link. There are just as many Zerkers and Paladins MT, and they actually have better survivability. Paladins take less damage and have even easier agro control. Zerker with Adrenaline are also good choices for MT compared to SKs. However, the best choice is still Guards because they do have enough agro to hold mobs from very high DPS in correct set-ups and they do handle damage the best. It is not a secret.That being said, yes at the end of 2 years everybody being level 80 and even the brawlers climbing real high into diminishing returns for mit things have swung towards the tanks that just plan hold agro the best. Its because at group level a Wizards could tank with a good healer. Please don't forget that there is a level increase right around the corner and that alone is going to mean an expansion where survivability is once again king of all. Mit is not going to be as easily capped. Soaking more damage is going to be extremely important. Hopefully you guys can understand this.</blockquote>So not only are we suppose to be content with only being useful for raids.......its only until the other tanks have gotten their gear at which point we are back to where we are now...worst choice but for a few select encounters?Thats a really sad way of classs design and balance.</blockquote>Yeah, what 2 years from now. Meaning Guards rock it out survivability for an xpac. Until the xpac after comes out than you start seeing the same thing happen. Its not like this is a new phenomenon. EOF was the same way as TSO. Looking back tanks were more balanced than RoK and KoS. Its because of diminishing returns and the other tanks once again caught up to Guards and by the end surpassed them. Zerkers could easily jump into the role of MT. Crusaders were much better off than in KoS and RoK. Than RoK hits and it started the whole process over. Guards owned everything. It wasn't until TSO that other tanks were given survivability to once again close the gap that things came into balance. TSO to a lot of people, minus a few heroic Guards, is more balanced for tanks than it ever has been. Now, what do you know we get another xpac with a level increase where once again survivability is king. They don't make it easy to cap stuff right away. They leave room to do that for the next xpac. If you didn't touch anybody right now and just kept their abilities increasing at the same % into T10 Guards would still rule because of survivability. Now they most likely will get some tweaks to help with agro in the heroic area and suddenly Guards are going to rock. Its no secret and you can go ahead and save this post to come back to it to remind yourself that some people can see patterns a lot easier than others.Guards in SF are going to be happy.And ratattouli you are wrong. Yes SKs are considered one of the best for solo'ing. I wouldn't know PvP because this is not a PvP game. PvP has an entirely different set of rules and that is not what most people are playing. As far as grouping Paladins are just as good as SKs in heroic, and Zerkers rock thru it as well. Last, raiding. Raiding is all about progression. If you are not progression you are not a raiding guild. Thats like saying just because you go raid PR you are a "raider". In real raiding Guards are hands down the best MT. Crusaders and Zerkers competing for the OT spot. What you see is exactly what EoF was sporting and why suddenly people look back and say that EoF was pretty balanced. The same thing will happen when people look back on TSO. Some people can recognize it for what it is right now.Whats funny is because Guards don't have the agro control that Crusaders and Zerkers do, which really affects heroic game-play, they think they are broken and think they deserve to be kings of all tanking all the time. You are already king of one type of tanking, why do you need to have more?

Davngr1

12-10-2009, 02:32 PM

i'm not sure about what will be best for tank balance only someone with no clue would claim to understand ALL aspects of the game and tanking enough make that call. the ONE thing i do know is that you don't need to break/nerf my SK to fix my guard. whatever it is that the community decides to support as far as fix, i hope does not include sucking the fun out of another class. like it was done with the TSO guard, it makes no sense it's stupid.

Grumpy_Warrior_01

12-10-2009, 03:38 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote> the ONE thing i do know is that you don't need to break/nerf my SK to fix my guard. whatever it is that the community decides to support as far as fix, i hope does not include sucking the fun out of another class. like it was done with the TSO guard, it makes no sense it's stupid.</blockquote>Now that we have the expansion coming soon enough to hold subscription rates steady, we no longer need a ridiculously OP class to hold onto the FOTM players who would have just as soon jumped over to WoW or Aion months ago. But those players saw the current incarnation of the Shadowknight class as an instant formula to turn Norrath into one big Harclave's instance, and they were willing to pay monthly for that.With the recent Producer's letter, the gentle nudges have begun as everybody associated with this game has known all along would happen. Due to class ties, Paladins got caught in the wake of the SK's hyperinflation to super-stardom, and you can rest assured their feet will also touch earth again in the days ahead.

RafaelSmith

12-10-2009, 04:49 PM

Here is the problem as I see it with using a class's viability in raids as a counter to its viability for everything else like heroic.In a group....you have one fighter........beit a Brawler, Crusader or Warrior its only job is to Tank for the group.....there is no such thing as OT for heroics...MT and OT are merged into the same thing TANK. This involves pulling the encounters, leading the group, keeping aggro on whatever is pulled and having enough "whatever" such that the healer is able to keep him up along with whatever else healers provide for the group. To do this any fighter in a group needs aggro and survival tools. There is no way a Guard can keep aggro in a group unless that group is drastically ungeared by comparison or the group has the correct class makeup to give the Guard the aggro needed. Its entirely out of the hands of the tank. SKs do not have this limitation.By contrast when it comes to raiding........both SK and Guardian face similar levels of limitations....both are entirely dependent on the raid and its construction for success. Raids have at least 2 different reasons for a fighter to attend so fighters designed better for OT get to shine and fighters better designed for MT get to shine. Everyone wins.Ive seen some of the worst "played" SKs...that would be laughed out any serious raid force........tank groups like they were gods. Ive seen some of the best played Raid Guards look like complete newbs in groups. Sorry but thats messed up.

Davngr1

12-11-2009, 06:39 AM

<cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote> the ONE thing i do know is that you don't need to break/nerf my SK to fix my guard. whatever it is that the community decides to support as far as fix, i hope does not include sucking the fun out of another class. like it was done with the TSO guard, it makes no sense it's stupid.</blockquote>Now that we have the expansion coming soon enough to hold subscription rates steady, we no longer need a ridiculously OP class to hold onto the FOTM players who would have just as soon jumped over to WoW or Aion months ago. But those players saw the current incarnation of the Shadowknight class as an instant formula to turn Norrath into one big Harclave's instance, and they were willing to pay monthly for that.With the recent Producer's letter, the gentle nudges have begun as everybody associated with this game has known all along would happen. Due to class ties, Paladins got caught in the wake of the SK's hyperinflation to super-stardom, and you can rest assured their feet will also touch earth again in the days ahead.</blockquote>i could understand how you would think that. ofcourse the "flavor of the expac" class has less to do with marketing and more to do with dev's giving said class extra attention. you saw it in dof/kos with rangers, brigs, furys followed by necros then wizards,assassins and illy/dirges. i don't think players want one class to becomes useless so that another can shine, player skill/gear and dedication should make a class shine. when anyone can pick up an over powerd class, "scrub buttons" and achive better results then better players you know something is wrong. for sent i hope devs finaly get it right and achive or at least shoot for true balance. BTW.. the SK issue has years in the making, the "hate over time" and dot dmg of sk always made them the stepchild of agro. what you saw in TSO was the result of two years worth of AA that din't quite click being fixed and an aoe expansion.edit. typos. im sure i didn't get them all :

Grumpy_Warrior_01

12-11-2009, 01:20 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>i could understand how you would think that. ofcourse the "flavor of the expac" class has less to do with marketing and more to do with dev's giving said class extra attention. you saw it in dof/kos with rangers, brigs, furys followed by necros then wizards,assassins and illy/dirges. i don't think players want one class to becomes useless so that another can shine, player skill/gear and dedication should make a class shine. when anyone can pick up an over powerd class, "scrub buttons" and achive better results then better players you know something is wrong. for sent i hope devs finaly get it right and achive or at least shoot for true balance. BTW.. the SK issue has years in the making, the "hate over time" and dot dmg of sk always made them the stepchild of agro. what you saw in TSO was the result of two years worth of AA that din't quite click being fixed and an aoe expansion.edit. typos. im sure i didn't get them all :</blockquote>I'll try to be more concise:November 13, 2008: Blizzard releases Wrath of the Lich King expansion, including the all-new Deathknight. The Deathknight is the first of a new WoW class called the "Hero Class." It is a hybrid (melee + dark magic spellcaster) designed as a DPS tank, that comes pre-leveled to 55 with all spells and abilities pre-loaded, all world mount stations pre-earned, a unique, powerful rune system, pre-kitted with legendary-level gear, with a fabled-level set of gear attainable in the starting area.November 18, 2008: Sony Online releases The Shadowknight Odyssey expansion and proceeds to compete with the Deathknight concept in the most logical, straightforward way imaginable.Bruener goes to bed every night with a smile on his face, believing in his heart of hearts that the SK class has been lovingly revamped over the past year as fair and due compensation for all the emotional scars he suffered through during the dreaded RoK expansion. As much as we want this game to be driven 100% by the amazing artists, designers and balancers on our behalf, at times we have to think beyond the box to a larger picture which rightly involves market competition and the business of running a business. As I have said before, the OP'ing of the Shadowknight was not an accident. The folks that run this show know exactly what they are doing. As long as we can see a return to order at some point in the near future, and an end to non-Guardians strutting into our house schooling us on how to tank, what balanced means, and what to think, then I for one am fine with that.

Bruener

12-11-2009, 02:41 PM

<cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote>As long as we can see a return to order at some point in the near future, and an end to non-Guardians strutting into our house schooling us on how to tank, what balanced means, and what to think, then I for one am fine with that.</blockquote>Sounds like a personal problem. Many Guards out there still tearing it up. The problem now is that the "non-Guardian" tanks got the tools to compete and the good players will always win.So, since you have it all figured out smarty than what triggered Guards being OP'd in RoK? Or Warriors being OP'd in KoS? I mean what expansions came out with the "Guard" class to compete all of a sudden.Yes I agree the timing was perfect and was probably the reason that SKs got some major luvin sooner rather than later. But the changes were very over-due and coming down from the pipe-line were in the works for quite a while. The release of the WoW Deathknight just lit the fire.So, SF is releasing...based on your theory than no class is going to get serious luvin because well....marketing has no reason to. Lol. Or we most likely will see Druids rocking it out like crazy, Brawlers getting some sweet tools, and Summoners given even more reasons to be around. In the mix there, probably some tweaks to Guards at the heroic level.Darn, no OP'd Guard next x-pac like half of you are hoping for.

JohnDoe032

12-11-2009, 05:32 PM

Even though I've been playing since release, I don't usually bother to post or take part in the forums... but I felt the need to chime in here. I've read through all of these posts back and forth at length, and I think the larger point is being missed. Guardians got severely nerfed with the "fighter revamp #1" in prep. for the following revamp... which never materialized due to extensive bickering from high end players. They did not want to "lose DPS and become a taunt bot" to be viable. Well... you lost DPS and now taunts don't amount to much of anything. I assume much of the railing against revamp #2 started from the false conclusion that they would roll back the Guardian class to pre-revamp#1 status if #2 never went in. The fact is... that was never EVER an option. Everyone who was so up in arms only managed to leave the Guardian holding the short stick at the hands of the nerf bat when the dust cleared.Guardians CAN still hold agro, yes, but not nearly as well as ANY of our counterparts. At the high end we need a perfectly kitted raid party... that means plenty of hate transfer and +agro... (swash/coercer/dirge) as has been mentioned a million times. Link and Troubs to help lower the agro of the balls to the wall DPS freaks, etc. A silly meter will NOT discourage them. In fact, all it does these days is let me know, "Well crap, I'm about to lose agro and watch that Paladin/Wizard die again!" The larger problem in my eyes is that much of our agro is *ALSO* reliant upon a singular item from LAST EXPANSION... Stormbringer Bulwark of the Unstoppable. Even having said shield... with the caps to agro transfer and hate increase in place, at the VERY high end game, it is still a great struggle to hold agro as a Guardian these days once dps and other tanks get stacked. Speaking of end game and carry-overs from previous expansion, I know a LOT of guards who are trading their Myth in for a better weapon out of TSO since it truly is rather sub-par. As you admitted already... with buffs, diminishing returns, and getting rid of uncontested mitigation... most other plate-tanks are more than capable of filling our damage-taking roles. With a much more solid(and less frustrating/difficult to gain) agro. Having a cadre of 80s including coercer, guardian, fury, templar, dirge... I've seen it from all sides on raids this expansion. I hate to admit it, but I'd much rather have anything but a Guardian, my own included, in my groups when doing zones... and even most raids.Let us recap and get back on track...What is a Guardian's role in the game? To get and hold agro so that we may take the blows!!So in order to do one of our core functionalities... aka take the blows, we must logically be able to hold and pull agro. Why must we be so heavily reliant on an entire raid party and/or perfect group setup and/or a singular item from a previous expansion to hold agro? It seems completely counterinuitive. If we are the most defensive tank in the game, we should be able to do 2 things that outpace our competition: Agro and take blows. If that means making us "taunt bots" fine... whatever. Zerkers are there to be our DPS counterpart/brother, so they can have it. They do it exceedingly well.I'm not going to jump on the "Nerf this, Nerf that" bandwagon... more tanks out there are always welcome! Enjoy the buff to your class! But at the same time, you have to understand where most Guardians are coming from. We got nerfed HARD with revamp 1, and other tanks got put up on considerable pedistal.TSO for Guardians:<ul><li>Our myth turned from OP to complete crap. </li><li>Our AA lines were decimated due to the removal of some uncontested mit, double attack, etc. </li><li>Speaking of... uncontested mitigation went away making the diminishing returns of mit/stats all the more noticeable for us. </li><li>Under the hood of the game engine... they lowered OUR base damage tables, and "tweaked" the base mitigation tables of all fighter classes. </li><li>We were promised "Oh the fix is a month away" on MANY MANY occasions only to have it yanked out from under us... the day OF the patch on at least 2 or 3 occasion.</li></ul> It is simply fact that we were beat down hard in preparation for a change, and never had anything put back in its place... THAT is why we are complaining as Guardians. Go fight for agro against an entire raid of well geared players on the Anashti Sul fight as a Guardian. Let me know how that goes for you and your stress level.

Rahatmattata

12-11-2009, 08:08 PM

<cite>JohnDoe032 wrote:</cite><blockquote>TSO for Guardians:<ul><li>Our myth turned from OP to complete crap. </li><li>Our AA lines were decimated due to the removal of some uncontested mit, double attack, etc. </li><li>Speaking of... uncontested mitigation went away making the diminishing returns of mit/stats all the more noticeable for us. </li><li>Under the hood of the game engine... they lowered OUR base damage tables, and "tweaked" the base mitigation tables of all fighter classes. </li><li>We were promised "Oh the fix is a month away" on MANY MANY occasions only to have it yanked out from under us... the day OF the patch on at least 2 or 3 occasion.</li></ul> It is simply fact that we were beat down hard in preparation for a change, and never had anything put back in its place... THAT is why we are complaining as Guardians. Go fight for agro against an entire raid of well geared players on the Anashti Sul fight as a Guardian. Let me know how that goes for you and your stress level.</blockquote>Don't you mean uncontested avoidance from the 8% riposte in stamina line? That was turned into shield effectiveness so there is still some element of uncontested avoidance. Not that past expansions matter, but the only OP guards in RoK were ones with the mythical epic weapon. Being able to have that much self buffed double attack & 8% riposte with a tower shield, while zerkers and non-epic guards had to use a buckler with little protection was what made players consider them OP. I didn't get my mythical epic until TSO, and in RoK when I had to tank a hard hitting mob using a tower shield, threat control was worse than it is now.Zerkers didn't get hit the same way with the KoS AA changes. They lost a good bit of double attack, but gained back the use of a tower shield. So they did lose some single target dps, their aoe dps was unaffected and they gained survivability. The change to stamina line nerfed the guardian epic to be one of the worst in the game, certainly among fighters. In addition, the loss of double attack took months to gain back from gear.There are posts back a page or two from Aerilik explaining why we were nerfed and how it was only the first step in a new balancing process... over a year later nothing has changed. We were just straight up nerfed. Non myth guards really ate sht with his idiotic move.

dr4gonUK

12-14-2009, 05:38 AM

Personally i didnt mind crusaders getting buffed in tso. But losing guards 500dps in one update was demoralising. Part of me still beleives if they had left guards melee dps alone we wouldnt have had any outcry, dps = hate right?People who play sk and troll these forums seem adamant about keeping guards nose in the dirt.And grave sacrament.... I went and rolled an sk to see for myself. Then i understood why subpar geared sks were ripping aggro from me in raids, and there was nothing i could do to change that. = retired guard.Why would anyone want to play a so called "single target" tank that cant keep aggro on a single target.

Wasuna

12-14-2009, 03:22 PM

Tanked for part of a VP raid last night. My Guardian is 15K self buffed and 73% Avoidance, 68% Mitigation in defensive with shield. Raid Buffed I was ~20K HP, 75% Avoidance, 73% Mitigation. I had something like 70% DA, 130 DPS and my STR was 1000+. My Hate was something like 65% so I was capped in hate. I also have all master spells.We had just killed Nexoma so the Bezerker OT was all raid hate buffed with a dirge, coercer and Assassin. I has a Swashbuckler, Dirge and Coercer.We got a trash add going to wing 2 so the Bezerker jumped up and stood right next to me with his mob. I had to use EVERY SINGLE SNAP I had to keep agro off him and he wasn't even attacking my mob. I went full offensive with dual wield and still couldn't keep agro. In the end he tanked both mobs. From then on I'd pull and about 5 seconds into the fight he'd get agro and I'd just lean back and drink some tea. I just told the raid leader to switch us and I coasted the rest of the raid and tanked a couple adds till the Bezerker got agro off me 10 seconds into me picking it up.I do not care what he was doing or what spell/buff he poped up. That is not acceptable that I can't even hold agro with Cry of the Warrior, Reinforcement, Rescue and the TSO AA rescue.Guardian agro MUST be fixed in this expansion or mine will be dead to me. I love tanking and leading the group. I research and watch and learn all I can just so I can do that effectivly and it means nothing right now.

JohnDoe032

12-14-2009, 05:11 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JohnDoe032 wrote:</cite><blockquote>TSO for Guardians:<ul><li>Our myth turned from OP to complete crap. </li><li>Our AA lines were decimated due to the removal of some uncontested mit, double attack, etc. </li><li>Speaking of... uncontested mitigation went away making the diminishing returns of mit/stats all the more noticeable for us. </li><li>Under the hood of the game engine... they lowered OUR base damage tables, and "tweaked" the base mitigation tables of all fighter classes. </li><li>We were promised "Oh the fix is a month away" on MANY MANY occasions only to have it yanked out from under us... the day OF the patch on at least 2 or 3 occasion.</li></ul> It is simply fact that we were beat down hard in preparation for a change, and never had anything put back in its place... THAT is why we are complaining as Guardians. Go fight for agro against an entire raid of well geared players on the Anashti Sul fight as a Guardian. Let me know how that goes for you and your stress level.</blockquote>Don't you mean uncontested avoidance from the 8% riposte in stamina line? That was turned into shield effectiveness so there is still some element of uncontested avoidance. Not that past expansions matter, but the only OP guards in RoK were ones with the mythical epic weapon. Being able to have that much self buffed double attack & 8% riposte with a tower shield, while zerkers and non-epic guards had to use a buckler with little protection was what made players consider them OP. I didn't get my mythical epic until TSO, and in RoK when I had to tank a hard hitting mob using a tower shield, threat control was worse than it is now.Zerkers didn't get hit the same way with the KoS AA changes. They lost a good bit of double attack, but gained back the use of a tower shield. So they did lose some single target dps, their aoe dps was unaffected and they gained survivability. The change to stamina line nerfed the guardian epic to be one of the worst in the game, certainly among fighters. In addition, the loss of double attack took months to gain back from gear.There are posts back a page or two from Aerilik explaining why we were nerfed and how it was only the first step in a new balancing process... over a year later nothing has changed. We were just straight up nerfed. Non myth guards really ate sht with his idiotic move.</blockquote>Well, the uncontested mitigation/avoidance changes from the STA line were an issue, yes, but the way that mitigation is calculated in-game as a whole was changed. Pre-TSO, straight % from things like adornments, and shield effectiveness from armor, etc. were a bigger boost over the caps. They largely made types/sources of uncontested mitigation now contested with the TSO expansion... for everyone. However, with us already being so close to the caps and diminishing return marks, it basically was a back-ended nerf to us. It allowed a greater level of equality to avoidance and mitigation to non-guardian plate tanks. I can't speak for myself, because I had my myth in the early stages of RoK as a guardian, so have no idea what it was like to tank without myth in TSO. I do however, have a number of lowbie Guardian friends with fabled epics who say tanking is about the same or worse in TSO for them than it was in RoK just due to the big jumps other classes got in DPS from T2 shard armor and goodies alone. I guess I'll take that with a grain of salt since like I said, i have no personal basis for comparison.Did you mean the TSO AA changes? You're right... actually zerkers benefitted from a number of the changes in TSO... their base damage tables, etc. were unmodified unlike Guardian. Not having to carry around a crappy buckler all the time, and instead being free to dual wield was a large plus for them as well. I played as a Berzerker all through EOF until we started raiding harder content and the guild wanted another Guardian to kick around... then I progressed through all of RoK and TSO as a Guardian. I know both of the mirrors quite well, and I've been sorely tempted to go back to being a berzerker again... but ehhh.Myth guards as well as non-myth guards got the size-9 in the poopchute alike... the guardian community as a whole. My hopes are just that SF will bring back some love to guardians. I do really enjoy the role of the class in gameplay, it is just unfortunate like you said, "We were just straight up nerfed."

JohnDoe032

12-14-2009, 05:15 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tanked for part of a VP raid last night. My Guardian is 15K self buffed and 73% Avoidance, 68% Mitigation in defensive with shield. Raid Buffed I was ~20K HP, 75% Avoidance, 73% Mitigation. I had something like 70% DA, 130 DPS and my STR was 1000+. My Hate was something like 65% so I was capped in hate. I also have all master spells.We had just killed Nexoma so the Bezerker OT was all raid hate buffed with a dirge, coercer and Assassin. I has a Swashbuckler, Dirge and Coercer.We got a trash add going to wing 2 so the Bezerker jumped up and stood right next to me with his mob. I had to use EVERY SINGLE SNAP I had to keep agro off him and he wasn't even attacking my mob. I went full offensive with dual wield and still couldn't keep agro. In the end he tanked both mobs. From then on I'd pull and about 5 seconds into the fight he'd get agro and I'd just lean back and drink some tea. I just told the raid leader to switch us and I coasted the rest of the raid and tanked a couple adds till the Bezerker got agro off me 10 seconds into me picking it up.I do not care what he was doing or what spell/buff he poped up. That is not acceptable that I can't even hold agro with Cry of the Warrior, Reinforcement, Rescue and the TSO AA rescue.Guardian agro MUST be fixed in this expansion or mine will be dead to me. I love tanking and leading the group. I research and watch and learn all I can just so I can do that effectivly and it means nothing right now.</blockquote>Another happy customer. All I can say is Amen to that. I've had this same experience in so many different situations throughout both expansions now more times than I can count. Reading your example was like deja vu.

Grumpy_Warrior_01

12-15-2009, 11:46 AM

<cite>JohnDoe032 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tanked for part of a VP raid last night. My Guardian is 15K self buffed and 73% Avoidance, 68% Mitigation in defensive with shield. Raid Buffed I was ~20K HP, 75% Avoidance, 73% Mitigation. I had something like 70% DA, 130 DPS and my STR was 1000+. My Hate was something like 65% so I was capped in hate. I also have all master spells.We had just killed Nexoma so the Bezerker OT was all raid hate buffed with a dirge, coercer and Assassin. I has a Swashbuckler, Dirge and Coercer.We got a trash add going to wing 2 so the Bezerker jumped up and stood right next to me with his mob. I had to use EVERY SINGLE SNAP I had to keep agro off him and he wasn't even attacking my mob. I went full offensive with dual wield and still couldn't keep agro. In the end he tanked both mobs. From then on I'd pull and about 5 seconds into the fight he'd get agro and I'd just lean back and drink some tea. I just told the raid leader to switch us and I coasted the rest of the raid and tanked a couple adds till the Bezerker got agro off me 10 seconds into me picking it up.I do not care what he was doing or what spell/buff he poped up. That is not acceptable that I can't even hold agro with Cry of the Warrior, Reinforcement, Rescue and the TSO AA rescue.Guardian agro MUST be fixed in this expansion or mine will be dead to me. I love tanking and leading the group. I research and watch and learn all I can just so I can do that effectivly and it means nothing right now.</blockquote>Another happy customer. All I can say is Amen to that. I've had this same experience in so many different situations throughout both expansions now more times than I can count. Reading your example was like deja vu.</blockquote>Same experience many times over. One alternative is to leave the berserker sitting in the guild hall next time and find an OT that can control himself. Your raid will still succeed, and with less aggro-flicking it will probably go a bit smoother for everyone.There's two parts to buffed threat: flat hate gain (Hyran's and Demeanor) and combat hate percent transfer (Swarthy, Murderous and Demeanor). The hate number on the persona window only shows the raw hate gain since that's a known quantity. The transfer on the other hand varies depending on how much hate is being generated during combat by the buffer, so there's no visible stat for that. If the buffer is dead or afk generating zero hate on their own, then there's nothing transferred. If they are pumping a lot of hate, generally via damage, that hidden value can go up considerably to help the guardian stay closer to the top of the hate list.(I know you already know this Wasuna, I'm just making sure anybody who reads this is clear on the basics. Did you parse the VP run, and how was the dps output of the scouts and coercers? If the OT scout/coercer were doing better than yours dps-wise, this may have been a hidden contributor to the misery. Also all 4 classes you mentioned can swing overall threat the wrong way by choosing the wrong ally to put other buffs on -- dps, hemo, etc.)Since the fighter revamp debacle, some folks have been making the case to put all threat generation responsibilities onto the fighter himself to prevent the co-dependence some fighter classes (namely guardians) have on other classes in raids and groups. The only thing tolerable about the failed changes was the fact that a fighter could choose whether he was +threat or -threat. This way, you can choose a tank deliberately and the non-tanking fighters have no excuse for "accidentally" ganking aggro 100x per night.

Grumpy_Warrior_01

12-15-2009, 12:16 PM

<cite>JohnDoe032 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let us recap and get back on track...What is a Guardian's role in the game? To get and hold agro so that we may take the blows!!So in order to do one of our core functionalities... aka take the blows, we must logically be able to hold and pull agro. Why must we be so heavily reliant on an entire raid party and/or perfect group setup and/or a singular item from a previous expansion to hold agro? It seems completely counterinuitive. If we are the most defensive tank in the game, we should be able to do 2 things that outpace our competition: Agro and take blows. If that means making us "taunt bots" fine... whatever. Zerkers are there to be our DPS counterpart/brother, so they can have it. They do it exceedingly well.</blockquote>I'm with you 100% on that, JohnDoe. I can accept complete lack of any utility while crusaders and brawlers get tons of it. I can accept pathetic damage numbers as compared to all the other fighters. Durability is our gig, and even though it's nearly equal atm for all 6 classes, I think we still have a small edge there on certain encounters, which in my mind balances the major utility and dps advantages all the other fighters have enjoyed for 80 levels. But I cannot accept loss of aggro as a balancing factor for fighters. It's like telling a templar he can't heal since he has a slight edge on hp buffs.Who decided a fully leveled, fully AA'd, fully mastered, fully fabled, mythicaled guardian with over 500 days played should have to chase mobs down all night, while a legendary SK alt of a mystic with 39 days played, on the same content, should not? I've seen that with my own eyes. Maybe I just suck as a player. But I can't possibly suck that bad.

Davngr1

12-16-2009, 04:29 AM

<cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JohnDoe032 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let us recap and get back on track...What is a Guardian's role in the game? To get and hold agro so that we may take the blows!!So in order to do one of our core functionalities... aka take the blows, we must logically be able to hold and pull agro. Why must we be so heavily reliant on an entire raid party and/or perfect group setup and/or a singular item from a previous expansion to hold agro? It seems completely counterinuitive. If we are the most defensive tank in the game, we should be able to do 2 things that outpace our competition: Agro and take blows. If that means making us "taunt bots" fine... whatever. Zerkers are there to be our DPS counterpart/brother, so they can have it. They do it exceedingly well.</blockquote>I'm with you 100% on that, JohnDoe. I can accept complete lack of any utility while crusaders and brawlers get tons of it. I can accept pathetic damage numbers as compared to all the other fighters. Durability is our gig, and even though it's nearly equal atm for all 6 classes, I think we still have a small edge there on certain encounters, which in my mind balances the major utility and dps advantages all the other fighters have enjoyed for 80 levels. But I cannot accept loss of aggro as a balancing factor for fighters. It's like telling a templar he can't heal since he has a slight edge on hp buffs.Who decided a fully leveled, fully AA'd, fully mastered, fully fabled, mythicaled guardian with over 500 days played should have to chase mobs down all night, while a legendary SK alt of a mystic with 39 days played, on the same content, should not? I've seen that with my own eyes. Maybe I just suck as a player. But I can't possibly suck that bad.</blockquote> i agree with you both BUT i will say that you're sorta coming down hard on sk for no reason since pallys can still hold agro better and easier then any tank including sk. right now both crusaders are agro machines and that's a good thing for the raid force and for herroic content. the bad thing is that guards can't hold agro unless being played by a top notch player AND even then it's highly dependednt on buffs. seriously when i box my guard and a dps class my brig and my assassin can literaly gank agro from my guard just on auto attack.

Wasuna

12-16-2009, 03:31 PM

Paladin holds arego better than a SK ONLY when they have the correct type of Amends target and if that target is super duper. Last time a I ran a WoE raid with my Troubador I had a paladin MT and I would swap the assassin and Warlock in and out of the MT group for better agro on specific fights. Agro wasn't an issue at all but I wanted the DPS to be wide open so I did the small move.Now, the SK will keep agro all by their self and will ALSO challenge the healers in the heal parse and out DPS all the other classes in the group/raid but possibly a Warlock on big group fights.With my Guardian I don't crack the top 3-5 in raid DPS in WoE raids and that is with all the good buffs fromt he Dirge, Coercer .. etc. I don't heal anything, I don't have bloodletter (sp?) and the smarter SK's now actually get some tanking gear and have HP/MIT/AVOID almost equal to me. All those numbers are over the 75% number anyway so who gives a crap above that since your on the flat part of the curve already.SK's, Paladin's and Bezerkers do multiple times the DPS I can do, hold hate MUCH better and can tank just as good as I can. What the heck good is a Guardian?SoE better fix this in the expansion. I'm sick and tired of people asking if they can roll for their SK for WoE gear when I form them up. I'm tired of having an OT in any raid just rip agro off me while they are afk autoattacking. I'm tired of having like 1800 days played and not being able to hold agro from a 2 month old Bezerker/SK/Paladin with Legendary gear and mythical even with me fully raid buffed. I play my Trouabdor mostly now becasue I just get mad when I play my Guardian.

MoeSizlak

12-16-2009, 05:47 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>SK's, Paladin's and Bezerkers do multiple times the DPS I can do, hold hate MUCH better and can tank just as good as I can. What the heck good is a Guardian?</blockquote>For absorbing hits with their slighly superior mitigation, having slightly more base HPs and having slightly better damage absorbing tools (ToS) compared to the other plate tanks.You know...that maybe 5% increase in survivability that guardians have that totally makes up for the 200% decrease in aggro gen and DPS ability. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />

Aull

12-16-2009, 06:26 PM

<cite>Tesar@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>SK's, Paladin's and Bezerkers do multiple times the DPS I can do, hold hate MUCH better and can tank just as good as I can. What the heck good is a Guardian?</blockquote>For absorbing hits with their slighly superior mitigation, having slightly more base HPs and having slightly better damage absorbing tools (ToS) compared to the other plate tanks.You know...that maybe 5% increase in survivability that guardians have that totally makes up for the 200% decrease in aggro gen and DPS ability. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I don't know what the true percentage would be on that but I would think you are very close. This is exactly how it is though and it is sad that many claim this is why a guard should not have equal aggro as the crusaders because of their survival is so far and above all other fighters. That might be true when compairing to the brawlers but the other plates are not that far behind.

MaCloud1032

12-17-2009, 12:32 AM

I currently have a 80 sk and guard. Back in KoS/EoF my sk was my main. For raiding we had a guard up front and i was right next to him. Then end of EoF rolled around and our guard was thinking about playing a alt a bit more so i started rolling up a guard. RoK came out and the diffrences between the 2 classes couldnt of been bigger. On my guard agro came as easy as turning on my auto attack. My SK had to work his butt off to mix and match for gear that got me str sta and int. Seamed every peice of gear i found for my guard was str, sta, agi. RoK let it be knowen that guards were the tank to be seen. Then came TSO was a compleat change from single target everything. Almost all encounters have 3 mobs.(perfect number for sk's) Gear was revamped to help out hybred classes (melee healers, crusader's, and bards) finding gear with str, sta, int, wis on it for crusaders was a god send. Items with spell and melee crit and double attack. These itmes along would of been enough to make us viable again. Allowing these classes to reach crit caps made for extream changes in how the parses looked.Due to many people complaining they also went back and changed up hate on the 2 classes. Giving % base increases to hate coupled with the gear inhansments only ensured that agro would be stupid easy for us.(i dont agree at all with this) I totaly agree that guards need a major increase to hate. Notice i said hate not dps. I also feel SK's should have there hate decreased again hate not dps. Personaly i feel plate wise dps should go SK, zerk, pally, guard and the reverse is true for raw hate generation/surviavability.I think if sony wants to keep the classes even they need to adjust how things are going. This flavor or the month crap needs to go. Seeing a massive influx of players going to a class is very detrimental to the game. Find a way to ballance fighters, healer, and dps. If that means reinstateing the Teirs then do it. IMO a class that can debuff the way a brig/swash does should not be able to dps like a ranger/assassan. Same goes for tanks a guard taunts a sk DPS's either way they should both beable to do the same job evenly.

Wasuna

12-17-2009, 03:38 PM

Giving Guardians a way to keep agro is a MUST.Keeping SK's where they do +40% zone wide dps in a gorup with a mythical wizard and mythical conjour and do +20% of the total zone wide HEAL parse is a big problem. Those are actual numbers. Any kind of tank should NEVER be even close to either of those numbers.SK's and Paladins need to think long and hard about what's going to happen to them.I just want my Guardian to be able to hold Agro. I ran DF/NHT last night for a guild mate and had an Assasin and Dirge for agro and a Ranger and Wizard fort more dps. I parsed the second lowest just ahead of the templar and I didn't hold agro on a single fight while in Offensive and Dual Weilding.

MoeSizlak

12-17-2009, 05:23 PM

Prestissimo

12-22-2009, 08:19 AM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Giving Guardians a way to keep agro is a MUST.Keeping SK's where they do +40% zone wide dps in a gorup with a mythical wizard and mythical conjour and do +20% of the total zone wide parse is a big problem. Those are actual numbers. Any kind of tank should NEVER be even close to either of those numbers.SK's and Paladins need to think long and hard about what's going to happen to them.I just want my Guardian to be able to hold Agro. I ran DF/NHT last night for a guild mate and had an Assasin and Dirge for agro and a Ranger and Wizard fort more dps. I parsed the second lowest just ahead of the templar and I didn't hold agro on a single fight while in Offensive and Dual Weilding.</blockquote>Paladins know what will happen to them. If we get nerfed anymore we might actually have to start asking for hate tools back as it will not be possible to keep agro. We have amends, we have holy ground which is only good as long as we continue to target and hit the mob (VERY different from grave sacrement) and is going to be nerfed inevitably due to people crying about it, and sigil of heroism which is only as good as your group's ability to spike agro minus other hate transfers. In otherwords, other than our outright dps which is 40-60% our auto attack, we have basically 3 hate tools, one of which we rely on heavily and the other 2 are for recovery/snap agro. My strongest non-rescue taunt (Mastered, fully aa buffed in every possible way for more hate, and 454 aggression self buffed) hits for about 1,700 threat and is on a 40 second recast. I have 3 taunts total, one is the previously mentioned, another is a shield bash which is about 1,000 threat last i cared to even look at it, and clarion (a grandmaster choice) is still beaten by the splitpaw taunt. In properly formed raids, amends gives us a grand total of an extra 3% hate transfer and actually reduces our overall quality of hate transfered due to shody mechanics when determining the raw numbers transfered. (If a person has 17% transfer of 800 dps, it will average down part of another transfer of 19% at 10k dps. Throw amends onto that, and it averages down the 19% even further if the amends target slacks or is resisted/CCed which everyone knows how common that is in TSO.)God knows our survivability tools are an absolute joke even comparative to the brawler's abilities. Our oh so awesome survivability abilities which happens to consist of only one ability (spare the crusader tree's STA endline for both pali and sk and is limited to less than 50% of hp, 10min recast) is our TSO endline ability that costs 2 points, and is almost a complete copy paste of the guardian's EoF tree endline Block. The only thing ours is missing is that we don't get a AOE block, but we do get to cast things while it's up. I can see how that is totally OPed beyond help.I'm not saying that amends isn't great, and i'm not saying that combined with sigil and holy ground that we don't have some good agro tools and management. What I am saying is that the paladins are by no means easy mode anymore nor are they so astronomically better off, and the majority of the easy mode amends discrimination is left over from before the transfer cap went into play which is a news flash for some that it has been quite a while. The paladins recieve entirely way too much flak for the fact that they can heal at incredibly poor rates, and that they have easy mode amends when in reality amends is highly misunderstood including that it can actually damage your hate gain just as easily as it can help you.What it boils down to is that paladins are also faced with restrictions and considerations that are VERY important for them to keep in mind when forming groups, and despite it appearing easy, you'll notice there are not nearly as many paladins as there was before because most of the inferior paladins betrayed, and those that wanted to enjoy the power of the SKs betrayed leaving those that enjoyed playing the paladin and those that were secure in their possition as a paladin tank. The paladins understand the problems you face much better than you may think they do, but they are hated and attacked still the same and it isn't be the first time the paladin has been misunderstood.The paladins simply want nothing more than to be left alone so that they do not have to continously relearn their class (every game update it seems anymore), and that they have the tools they need in order to hold hate and survive. That is all we are asking for, and seeing as our ONLY survivability tool (stonewall) is STILL messed up since TSO launch it's pretty obvious how well that request is being heard.

Wasuna

12-28-2009, 01:31 AM

I read your post and I understand what you said. The only reply I have is, you tank 100% better than the wizard or ranger. Your saves are better than the Assassin and Warlocks.When Guardians tank the mobs hit the dps. When paladins tank, the mobs hit the Paladin. You say you have to consider who you group with. Maybe you need to sit on the shelf until you get a PERFECT group that the Guardian needs and see how bad Amends is then.This post is about Guardians vs SK but really crusaders are either the problem that needs to be fixed or the gold standard that all of the rest of us need to be brought up to.

Lethe5683

01-02-2010, 09:30 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now, the SK will keep agro all by their self and will ALSO challenge the healers in the heal parse and out DPS all the other classes in the group/raid but possibly a Warlock on big group fights.</blockquote>This is eaxctly the problem but no SKs will admit it. Especially the ones like bruenar who are desperatly trying to keep themselves OP by making up "facts" and abstract examples of where other tanks are actually "better".<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>This post is about Guardians vs SK but really crusaders are either the problem that needs to be fixed or the gold standard that all of the rest of us need to be brought up to.</blockquote> Crusaders need to be nefed especially SKs. It's stupid to just keep constantly making certain classes OP then bringing other classes all up to the same OP level rather than just nerfing the OP ones. If people would stop being such wusses and just accept nerfs when they are reasonable this game would never have gotten so out of hand.

thial

01-03-2010, 07:31 PM

<cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now, the SK will keep agro all by their self and will ALSO challenge the healers in the heal parse and out DPS all the other classes in the group/raid but possibly a Warlock on big group fights.</blockquote>This is eaxctly the problem but no SKs will admit it. Especially the ones like bruenar who are desperatly trying to keep themselves OP by making up "facts" and abstract examples of where other tanks are actually "better".<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>This post is about Guardians vs SK but really crusaders are either the problem that needs to be fixed or the gold standard that all of the rest of us need to be brought up to.</blockquote>Crusaders need to be nefed especially SKs. It's stupid to just keep constantly making certain classes OP then bringing other classes all up to the same OP level rather than just nerfing the OP ones. If people would stop being such wusses and just accept nerfs when they are reasonable this game would never have gotten so out of hand.</blockquote>QFE

Torum

01-04-2010, 08:31 AM

I read this post and laugh, this argument of tank balance has been going on sence t5 and there has never been a proper fix. The game has been live now for how many years and have they every really made an effort to find tank balance. Do you honestly think there going to?

Aull

01-04-2010, 10:36 AM

The day that tank balance becomes reality would be the day of death for eqII. If guardian = berserker = sk = paladin = monk = bruiser in survivability, aggro, dps, aoe aggro/dps, utility, and solo then what has made this game greater than any other will loose its appeal. They are loosing that appeal now and hopefully SOE will get back on track with the ideas of that gave each fighter their identity or better yet their authenticity.

RafaelSmith

01-04-2010, 11:39 AM

They dont want to accept it but something needs to be done with SKs.......[Removed for Content] near top surviveability...absolute top DPS and self generated aggro all in the same fighter class is bad for the archetype and the game. They want to be the best DPS/aggro tank then they should be a total nightmare to keep up and heal. Something has to give.

Aull

01-04-2010, 08:54 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>They dont want to accept it but something needs to be done with SKs.......[Removed for Content] near top surviveability...absolute top DPS and self generated aggro all in the same fighter class is bad for the archetype and the game. They want to be the best DPS/aggro tank then they should be a total nightmare to keep up and heal. Something has to give.</blockquote>I agree. Not that I personally target sk's but any fighter class that has a higher dps rating should not be just as tough as the one who doesn't have the dps potential. A fighter who has good survival coupled with both group and self utility should not be parsing equally to one who doesn't have the survival and utility. There should be a trade off.

Wasuna

01-05-2010, 01:51 PM

Don't forget the heal parse. SK's will be the top of the DPS parse and will also be ~20% of the heal parse in most TSO zones where there are a ton of groups of mobs.That is just stupid. Anybody from SOE that thinks that is OK should get fired.

RafaelSmith

01-05-2010, 03:26 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>They dont want to accept it but something needs to be done with SKs.......[Removed for Content] near top surviveability...absolute top DPS and self generated aggro all in the same fighter class is bad for the archetype and the game. They want to be the best DPS/aggro tank then they should be a total nightmare to keep up and heal. Something has to give.</blockquote>I agree. Not that I personally target sk's but any fighter class that has a higher dps rating should not be just as tough as the one who doesn't have the dps potential. A fighter who has good survival coupled with both group and self utility should not be parsing equally to one who doesn't have the survival and utility. There should be a trade off.</blockquote>While its true that SKs are being singled out....in reality its only because SK is currrently the example of the wrong direction SOE is taking fighters. Too much power in a single class........that not only effects its archetype but crosses over into others is bad balance and not healthy for the game at large. A tank topping the parse for DMG taken is fine and as it should be.....but also topping the DPS and heal parse at the same time is not.Ive been focusing alot lately on my Assassin and thus have had the chance to group with a variety of tanks and its sickening the things SKs are able to get away with in groups and alot of raids. Because I wanted to make sure it just wasnt my Bias due to Guardian being my main I have spoken to alot of others that ive grouped with and there are alot of people that feel like they are just along for the ride when running with a SK as tank. Its created lazy DPS play, lazy healing which is not healthy for the game.Ive gotten to the point where I jump at the chance to group with a Guard or Brawler because the play is much more fun and challenging and more in line with what I think grouping should be like....where everyone ..not just the OP Sk running in rooms and blasting away is responsible for the things that make the group a success. Il run with guild SKs and friend SKs that I know are good players but avoid PuG SKs like the plague they have become.

Owesta

01-08-2010, 12:25 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because I wanted to make sure it just wasnt my Bias due to Guardian being my main I have spoken to alot of others that ive grouped with and there are alot of people that feel like they are just along for the ride when running with a SK as tank. Its created lazy DPS play, lazy healing which is not healthy for the game.</blockquote>I dont post much on the forum but read allot, i do not have serious agro issues as discribed by some guardians (unless i team up with t4 players or the close eyes and shoot regardless dps type players). On those players i dont even bother getting agro back as my motto is you pull it you tank it!.Last night i was on my little half t2/t3 bruiser in a WoE raid where MT was an SK in t2 fepic weapon and there i really saw the difference between a guard and an SK. On pulls the SK dragged the mobs into the raid and started tanking it there and no interupts were casted so while maintianing agro while stunned he kept them and we killed the mobs no problem.If i would do that on my guard it would be insta deaths from a good portion of the raid, sometimes healer were abit slow on first heals and the SK kept himself up till healers jumped in, that situation on my guard would be a insta death for me.The only place i saw the SKs gear failed the raid was at dayakara. Im not screaming for a nerf but something has to give either other tank classes are being brought on par wit the other tank classes with same tier class gear or there has to be a nerf to the SKs abilities

Aull

01-08-2010, 01:08 PM

Well sk's being able to have their higher dps as a threat tool and having better raw threat/hate abilities is why they are so awesome at aggro.If anything guardians need at least similar raw threat/hate abilities to give them a better chance at sustaining aggro. Right now there is no reason why sk's are allowed to have great dps as a fighter, have stronger taunts than other fighters in the game, and having their survivability increased to boot.

Gonzo550

01-13-2010, 07:02 PM

last night a new SK in our guild was topping most parses with 12k against solo mobs. (must hve been an off night for some folks who normally do 15-18k) I kept agro by the skin of my teeth but it hardly seems right. I was doing a comfortable 6k at best dps. I've heard we're being "fixed" and SKs nerfed but until Iget the holy grail beta invite, I will be skeptical and continue to push for guardian reform.

RafaelSmith

01-14-2010, 10:00 AM

<cite>Gonzo550 wrote:</cite><blockquote>last night a new SK in our guild was topping most parses with 12k against solo mobs. (must hve been an off night for some folks who normally do 15-18k) I kept agro by the skin of my teeth but it hardly seems right. I was doing a comfortable 6k at best dps. I've heard we're being "fixed" and SKs nerfed but until Iget the holy grail beta invite, I will be skeptical and continue to push for guardian reform.</blockquote>Those numbers by themselves don't really bother me. Its the fact that they can put out those type of numbers yet not get one-shotted like the mages/scouts that are putting out those numbers or slightly better. SKs are able to achieve things (absurdly high DPS) without giving up a [Removed for Content] thing.........In your case he could just as easily been putting out those numbers and tanking without ever losing aggro. Too much power in a single class without any sacrifice or penalty is broken.

Dalamar777

01-23-2010, 04:24 AM

Well, I haven't read every post but I wanted to reply because I think I have a fairly uniquie point of view here.For a little over a year before ROK I was talking T6 and T7 raids with my SK. These raids were not pugs, but we weren't a raid guild either. That meant we almost never had an enchanter and I don't recall ever seeing a bard. The only aggro help was a swash who's gear wasnt quite as good as mine... EoF Legendary set (not the fabled).Aggro was so easy that at times I would pull a named, park it and go AFK to get a drink, grab some food or do whatever, knowing that when I got back the mob would be around 75% and I would still have aggro. I don't remember what our raid DPS was but it wasn't horrible.Now this was at a time when people refered to SKs as plate casters. Player perception is what caused SOE to decide that crusaders needed a boost. This wasn't true at all. Back then my SK could tank any raid that an equally geared guardian or zerker could. Any raid.Now I'm not saying that they should go back to the way things were because going backwards is dumb. What they need to do is bring that same level of equality back to the classes.I have a zerker now and I can tell you the class sucks when it comes to tanking. Totally useless. In Deep Forge my T2 myth'd zerker with half T8 masters and half T8 experts can barley hold aggro vs a T3 assassin with a dirge in the group. But the SK in crappy T7 fabled armor (not a set, just random gear) and a 72 MC weapon (not a joke) with T7 masters and 6 T8 experts; can hold aggro in the same zone with no aggro help, a necro and wiz burning ever time the spells are up, and a myth'd T3 ranger.Now that the SK is in T2 with fabled I can sleep though almost every encounter. The balance is gone. And its because SOE has a bad habit of catering to people who want those overpowered classes because they are lazy.

Shorcon

05-08-2010, 08:54 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hhhmmmm what do we see when we look at this.....A lvl 52 ability compared to a lvl 68 ability.An inflated SK ST taunt, its probably the threat it would do for a Guard. Believe me I have the spell mastered and my stats are very high and it is 500 less threat.A level 35 ability compared to a level 80 ability.A SK Mythical which has less overall stats and less survivability.Do you even try to compare Apples to Apples?What about the fact that GS is tremendously situational. Half the time I can't pop it because its like Zerker Gibe where it will pull mobs you don't want to pull. As an OT the last thing you want to do is rip the named off the MT and wipe the raid.But, go ahead and keep posting what you don't seem to know about.</blockquote>OMG are you for real? Seriously. First the lvl 35 compared to 80. Let me simplify there bud. We only get a level 35 death save that does not replace. This is in actuality not a save at all but a prolong of the inevitable. We live for 30 seconds longer if we can keep healed with the 40% not 100% of the sk death save that actualy is a save.Now the 52 vs. the 68 ability. This is the comparitive of the closest to similar of the 2 classes. Truth is there is no comparison as guardians after there 1 aoe 2 if speced for it, have to tab target and chase mobs to get the same effect. How many aoe's sk's got? 15 sec for guardian. 20 for sk. This is the most powerful snap ability the guardian has by far. I as a guardian am very patient to use my meger aoe's due to the fact that if i have them up and have to chase mobs i can stay on my target and pull them back. The SK's have aoes out the wazzoo and dont have this worry at all. Let alone they can just tab while staying put and not haveing to fear kiting a epic with a frontal over top of the raid. They cast ranged magic damage which procs GS bringing the mob back to them without moving a foot.Now the good ole myth. Wanna trade? I will take a 6 min reuse on a aoe snap any time of the week over proc to cc imunities. On top of this they get a dps proc which is the bread and butter of the SK agro build. You dont seriously think you have convinced anyone that the guardian myth is worth 2 craps do you?Now... this is the best one....... the whole wipe the raid deal on GS. This is good. You actualy have to know your toon to OT with an SK. There is an SK that knows how to play his toon out there. Grats. Tell your MT that they should have you MT unless they are SK also. It's funny how you just stated the facts as they are. Its harder for a SK to not hold agro than it is for them to hold agro. Easy button SK. Only if your OT do you need tons of skill.This is a problem. It's a big issue in actuality. I know what I am talking about. You do not. You should roll a guardian and see what you think. The fact is they need love. Big huge nasty love.