Strikethrough in T9 [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

ChaoticVisions

10-21-2009, 11:12 PM

First let me say that this is not a rage post. I'm speaking from a realistic standpoint here. You really need to consider making some sort of signet, gear proc, or other way of giving strikethrough to damage based scouts in future PvP updates.With all the uncontested avoidance adornments, gear, and AAs, you are making it near impossible for the scout to capitalize on what they do best. Damage.We all know that 100% parry moves have really gone too far, particularly nowadays with monks and brawlers having not only 1 but 2 each (on short re-uses), and of course the ridiculous SK furor. These moves were brought into the game with PvE in mind and I can almost say for certain that if this game was first and foremost a PvP game, moves that made you invincible to damage would surely give you some sort of penalties or drawbacks while using them. As it stands, they are more or less god mode buttons that completely shut down scout classes.Please spare me the "learn to play" stuff and the "don't attack them" crap. This is going too far and in T9, unless strikethrough is introduced, it's only going to get worse. I wouldn't be surprised if they added a 3rd parry move with the new AA lines coming out to the brawler lines.A short duration buff or proc to give strikethough really doesn't seem all that overpowered. It would be a counterpart to the parry moves.Scouts do not have long term survivability. You deal damage and you kill or you die. Meanwhile you have Crusaders and Brawlers who can not only avoid or absorb 100% damage, they can heal, cure CC, deal more than enough damage, and on top of all that, they have one of the most powerful utilities for group PvP. Taunt. All these abilities are on relatively short re-uses, meanwhile my hardest and best CA can only be dropped down to 8 minutes.I understand that fighters are supposed to be formidable, but this is really going too far. Where do you draw the line on what is acceptable and what isn't? As it stands, brawlers and crusaders are more or less gods in 1 v 1 or other small group based fights.Strikethrough in T9 is going to be a must at the very least for an assassin who relies more heavily on CAs than any of the other damage based scouts in the game. I really can't think of any other way to counter all the 100% and uncontested avoidance available in this game at endgame T8. If they can have that, then why can't we have that? It only seems logical and fair to me. These, of course, could trigger off the "Must be engaged in PvP combat" flag if the devs were concerned about ruining PvE content with such abilities.Please consider this.

Ambrin

10-22-2009, 02:40 AM

According to a recent post, brawler's will be made immune to strikethrough in T9, we will also have increased avoidance scores over those we have now and double attacks will work differently against us than other classes (this was not elaborated). Your main concern is that brawlers are very deadly to scouts in PvP? Tough, it is only going to get worse. I do agree with giving you some strikethrough though, I believe other plate tanks have to much avoidance. But if you take away the brawlers ability to take out melee we really don't have a lot going for us in PvP.EDIT: By the way, if you don't want to have to worry so much about people avoiding your attacks in melee I would suggest rolling a monk, our mythical has 50% strikethrough on it.

Darkor

10-22-2009, 04:30 AM

This is a serious point and i can only QFE it. All those 100 % avoidance move totally fubared up melee based scouts.

MokiCh

10-22-2009, 07:16 AM

What about Rangers and Bards, then? If you do something like this it should be for all scout classes, not just melee based ones.Personally, I don't see a great need for strikethrough with the way things are now. I duo with an Assassin a lot, and neither of us has any problem backing off for a few when we see the immunity icons pop. What I'd much rather see is Rangers getting Focus Aim back in some form. With damage crit, crit mit and crit heals being what they are right now, there's no reason not to give us back our best skill for PvP. I don't have a problem with people popping immunities on me, but in turn I'd like to be able to really blow them up again instead of dealing roughly equal damage with half the survivability.

Wytie

10-22-2009, 10:53 AM

I guess its a good thing only scouts can have the 100% parry belt.Funny how its not so fun when tanks get their own parry abilitys.

Darkor

10-22-2009, 11:08 AM

Rangers dont need any type of help. They have a very high hit chance and actually hit throu some avoidance moves and the most important part, they deal their dmg from range (safety!).And anyone comparing 100 % avoidance move with minuts of recast to the scout parry belt, a lower tier item on a 30 minut re-use is clueless anyway.

Mosha D'Khan

10-22-2009, 11:08 AM

with the brawlers parry buffs, well atleast the bruisers only last for 30sec total (that is combined). so if you cant last 30sec with you snares and ranged attacks then well there are problems there. with a scout you should beable to hit use with your attacks before we even see you or you should beable to just stall out. dont know why you think it was for just PvE. if brawlers did not have it in PvP then they would be killed to easy. and you said they where short timers. well for bruisers one is a 1.5 mins and the myth clicky is a 4.5 min (roughly the timers) well if a big zone of PvP people dont have that 1.5 mins to wait.

Darkor

10-22-2009, 11:22 AM

Its not like the avoidance isnt fubared WITHOUT 100 % avoidance move. Scroll down the forum, i posted a picture of a brawler fighting 3 scouts and avoiding 85 % of all attacks in that minute+ fight. Keep in mind that ranged attacks have both sides and brawlers have more than 1 way to get back in range. We could argue this all day, theres no point. But i welcome you to bring a melee scout of your choice and i bring a brawler of my choice and we'll see how it turns out. This is the same offer i made to someone who said a brigand shouldnt lose to healers. I offered him to bring a brig of his choice and i'll bring a healer of my choice.

ulleulle

10-22-2009, 11:25 AM

Any and all longlasting dmg avoidence moves should have a stifle component attached, maybe just a stifle for offensive based actions would be enough here,after all in my book i see moves like these as ways of avoiding dmg in a situation where you are in dire straits,and not for running up to people and smash em around while you yourself have immunity.I dunno,always a sensitive subject this when there are situations where it is working fine and others where it is straight up unfair =)CheersJabib

Wytie

10-22-2009, 11:34 AM

Oh but the parry belt is just fine... You guys are a jokeQQ and cry more about tanks avoiding your damage, this thread might make sense if you were upset about any other class avoiding your attacks other than a tank. lulz

Darkor

10-22-2009, 11:40 AM

<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh but the parry belt is just fine... You guys are a jokeQQ and cry more about tanks avoiding your damage, this thread might make sense if you were upset about any other class avoiding your attacks other than a tank. lulz</blockquote>Avoiding the dmg is fine, dealing insane dmg out while having the avoidance is the problem. Either give melee scouts a chance to strikethrou the out of controll getting avoidance or lessen the dps of tanks. Pail you are the last one telling anyone to QQ, your sk died what, 5 times in a row to a brigand? Wow.

Costa

10-22-2009, 11:41 AM

Well seeing as i play a tank i like the fact that with gear scouts can't rip me apart in seconds. Untill i had that gear i thought it was crazy that as a plate tank a scout would kill me in litterally 5 seconds. We're supposed to take damage just because we make you have to work to kill us makes us OP? Sorry but we don't wear cloth and allow you to pretty much 1 shot us. Most plate tanks are running around with between 60-70% mit and avoidance (gear and stance wil very this) plus most have 60%+ crit mit. We're designed to take damage and thats exactly what we do although most of us if we choose to go offensive can also kick out nice damage also. Warriors and Brawlers tend to need to DW to do that where as Crusaders have the luxury of keeping their shield on.Some fighters have better scout management abilites than others and as far as i'm aware SK's through most tiers can generally keep melee scouts at bay. Playing a warrior still takes a lot of work to stop them overwelming me quickly and surviving all the temps most people run in with.Also something i saw last night is that monk avoidance buff works on melee attacks only. Rangers doing range will still damage them if they put it up so it's not all doom and gloom for scouts.

Killque

10-22-2009, 11:46 AM

<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh but the parry belt is just fine... You guys are a jokeQQ and cry more about tanks avoiding your damage, this thread might make sense if you were upset about any other class avoiding your attacks other than a tank. lulz</blockquote>How long does Parry belt last and what is the reuse timer on it? Also having to wear it means what for my waist slot stats?Okay, thanks bye.Funny, you have no problems when other people have "over powered" abilities/gear, but if it affects you HOLD THE PHONE...

Killque

10-22-2009, 11:49 AM

Thinwizzy

10-22-2009, 11:52 AM

I have always thought that tanks where SUPPOSED to be hard to kill with melee. The job of a tank is based off of absorbing and avoiding melee damage. It sounds like if there is a problem with them, it is that they are doing alot of damage at the same time. If their ability to avoid damage where to get nerfed/toned down/changed-to-be-less/or whatever you want to call it, they would loose a very important part (perhaps the most class defining part) of their class. If something needs fixed, I am all for fixing it, but lets make sure we are focusing on the right area. A short stifle could help to balance out some of the avoidance moves, but I do not think they need to be completely removed. I think caution would be need with giving out strike through items to scouts for this reason because it would effect their ability vs all classes, not just fighters.

Darkor

10-22-2009, 11:54 AM

<cite>Bazill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well seeing as i play a tank i like the fact that with gear scouts can't rip me apart in seconds. Untill i had that gear ithought it was crazy that as a plate tank a scout would kill me in litterally 5 seconds.I agree, tanks shouldnt die in 5 seconds.We're supposed to take damage just because we make you have to work to kill us makes us OP? Sorry but we don't wear cloth and allow you to pretty much 1 shot us. Most plate tanks are running around with between 60-70% mit and avoidance (gear and stance wil very this) plus most have 60%+ crit mit. We're designed to take damage and thats exactly what we do although most of us if we choose to go offensive can also kick out nice damage also. Warriors and Brawlers tend to need to DW to do that where as Crusaders have the luxury of keeping their shield on.No tank has to dualwield to do enough dmg to kill a melee based scout. Ive been auto attacked by 1.5k+ from warriors and 2.5+ from crusader in full defensive gear and defensive stance. I dont understand why a tank has the luxury to go full defensive and still do major dps and a scout has to sacrifice all type of defensive to do almost no dmg nowdays? It isnt all about tanks, even good equipped clerics in plate are going to be impossible. Some fighters have better scout management abilites than others and as far as i'm aware SK's through most tiers can generally keep melee scouts at bay. Playing a warrior still takes a lot of work to stop them overwelming me quickly and surviving all the temps most people run in with.Ive seen guardians kill scouts, even at range they will slowly kill the scout when it isnt a ranger. Ive fought a berserker 2 vs 1 and he healed for 50k+ during the fight. How is a single melee scout supposed to win when they cant heal like that??Also something i saw last night is that monk avoidance buff works on melee attacks only. Rangers doing range will still damage them if they put it up so it's not all doom and gloom for scouts.Thats why i said that rangers are fine. Theres no way they need any kind of upgrade. </blockquote>You get the overall point, i have a 80 guardian and a 80 paladin, i also have a 80 brigand, 80 troubador and 80 warden. Some are better equipped than the other but all had their mythical very quick. I also have a Necromancer in T8 so i usually get a general idea of how stuff works. And im totally schocked how things turned out with the release of tso. 100 % avoidance moves have no room in pvp (especially not without a stifle or something) , they just ruin pvp.I'll just wait for the next expansion and hope the lottery makes one of my classes OP again i guess <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Darkor

10-22-2009, 11:57 AM

<cite>Thinwizzy@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have always thought that tanks where SUPPOSED to be hard to kill with melee. The job of a tank is based off of absorbing and avoiding melee damage. It sounds like if there is a problem with them, it is that they are doing alot of damage at the same time. If their ability to avoid damage where to get nerfed/toned down/changed-to-be-less/or whatever you want to call it, they would loose a very important part (perhaps the most class defining part) of their class. If something needs fixed, I am all for fixing it, but lets make sure we are focusing on the right area. A short stifle could help to balance out some of the avoidance moves, but I do not think they need to be completely removed. I think caution would be need with giving out strike through items to scouts for this reason because it would effect their ability vs all classes, not just fighters.</blockquote>Now my version:I have always thought that scouts where SUPPOSED to deal dmg. The job of a scout is based off doing damage to his opponent whether its a cloth wearing caster or a plate wearing tank. It sounds like if theres a problem with them, it is that they are doing 0 dmg while having 0 defensives. I could go on but you get the point i hope.

Faenril

10-22-2009, 12:01 PM

<cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bazill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well seeing as i play a tank i like the fact that with gear scouts can't rip me apart in seconds. Untill i had that gear i thought it was crazy that as a plate tank a scout would kill me in litterally 5 seconds. We're supposed to take damage just because we make you have to work to kill us makes us OP? Sorry but we don't wear cloth and allow you to pretty much 1 shot us. Most plate tanks are running around with between 60-70% mit and avoidance (gear and stance wil very this) plus most have 60%+ crit mit. We're designed to take damage and thats exactly what we do although most of us if we choose to go offensive can also kick out nice damage also. Warriors and Brawlers tend to need to DW to do that where as Crusaders have the luxury of keeping their shield on.Some fighters have better scout management abilites than others and as far as i'm aware SK's through most tiers can generally keep melee scouts at bay. Playing a warrior still takes a lot of work to stop them overwelming me quickly and surviving all the temps most people run in with.Also something i saw last night is that monk avoidance buff works on melee attacks only. Rangers doing range will still damage them if they put it up so it's not all doom and gloom for scouts.</blockquote>So having a 173 kill streak, exactly how hard is it to play a "tank class"? Man, you must REALLY have to give it your all 100% of the time...</blockquote>Well, achieving a 173 kill streak is not really impressive those days, assuming you run around with decent groupmates.We spent 2 hours in TG with a warden and a brig and I don't think I died once after we grouped together.

Faenril

10-22-2009, 12:07 PM

<cite>Darkor@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Thinwizzy@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have always thought that tanks where SUPPOSED to be hard to kill with melee. The job of a tank is based off of absorbing and avoiding melee damage. It sounds like if there is a problem with them, it is that they are doing alot of damage at the same time. If their ability to avoid damage where to get nerfed/toned down/changed-to-be-less/or whatever you want to call it, they would loose a very important part (perhaps the most class defining part) of their class. If something needs fixed, I am all for fixing it, but lets make sure we are focusing on the right area. A short stifle could help to balance out some of the avoidance moves, but I do not think they need to be completely removed. I think caution would be need with giving out strike through items to scouts for this reason because it would effect their ability vs all classes, not just fighters.</blockquote>Now my version:I have always thought that scouts where SUPPOSED to deal dmg. The job of a scout is based off doing damage to his opponent whether its a cloth wearing caster or a plate wearing tank. It sounds like if theres a problem with them, it is that they are doing 0 dmg while having 0 defensives. I could go on but you get the point i hope.</blockquote>But do you have a problem damaging non tank classes besides the lucky parry or stoneskin ? If not, the problem does not lie in your ability to deal damage (and as a consequence there is no need to improve this ability).

Costa

10-22-2009, 12:11 PM

No, i have been enjoying TG zerg with good healers. Although not been on Bazill much the last few days due to the servers being up and down and my play times. I'm sure i'll go out and lose that kill streak in a couple days.Although the last pvp fight i had i was jumped by an Onyx scout but because they were messing around they didn't kill me neither did the 2 q's that decided to have a go when i was at 10% health. Thankfully for me 2 other FP came in at that point and finished the q's off and the exiled ran off when i had him down to 30% for the 2nd time. I should not have survived that fight as i was down to the yellow within 3 seconds of the fight starting but the exiled was more interested in playing with me than killing me so i had chance to get temps up, shield on and switch stance.To look at my kill streak is a pointless exercise with the TG fighting going on at the moment. I could have over 200 in a few days then it will be to nothing again. It's not like i can evac to save my kill streak but at the same time i'm not going to go running around in the mass zerg with no healers.

Wytie

10-22-2009, 12:12 PM

<cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh but the parry belt is just fine... You guys are a jokeQQ and cry more about tanks avoiding your damage, this thread might make sense if you were upset about any other class avoiding your attacks other than a tank. lulz</blockquote>How long does Parry belt last and what is the reuse timer on it? Also having to wear it means what for my waist slot stats?Okay, thanks bye.Funny, you have no problems when other people have "over powered" abilities/gear, but if it affects you HOLD THE PHONE...</blockquote>Interesting how the parry belt doesnt count, even tho basicly every scout who can does have one, and it has no stifle effect or down side to useing it, and once you pop it you can swap out a better dps belt to wait out its cool down.Im a caster I have to deal with something worse than 100% parry moves, I get to deal with reflects that not only negate all the damage I would have done for a spell but toss a % of it right back in my face along with any CC effect attached to it.You guys should really L2P, if a parry move from a tank is popped on you, kite them till its gone just like your suppose to do with manashield if you cant burn it out or through it.I underestand its much much easier to QQ than to L2P but seriously QQ'n about a tank avoiding damage is well dumb, if you want to cry about the dps they can do while avoiding such damage, thats a whole another issue and the real one you should be upset about. Being able to mitigate tons of damage AND dps is really the problem. Not the fact that they can avoid it cause thats what they are suppose to do.

ChaoticVisions

10-22-2009, 12:29 PM

A) The previous stated facts about the parry belt is incorrect. It is on a 1 HOUR recast and it is a 10 second buff.B) A strikethrough change might actually get the clowns that still use this item to stop using it? It's T8, soon to be T9 already. Can we move out of having to use a T6 item now, please?Good riddance to the parry belt, and all the other moves like it.We already know that fighter damage might be a bit over the top, but when the devs proposed a change to this matter, the community threw a little fit and they were forced to recall the fighter revamp. So if we aren't allowed to lower their damage, we have to look at the next best fix. We need to be able to hit them when their overpowered 100% avoidance moves are running. As was said earlier, these are doubling as extremely potent offensive tools, not defensive.Also, yes scouts are supposed to be able to get the surprise attack on you and that is their strength. I couldn't agree more. HOWEVER, when my "surprise" attack can be instantly negated by use of a CC effect negater (pot, signet, or class ability) and then have a 100% avoidance move popped on me, there's not much I can do at this point save running away. Fine. Now I'm engaged in combat and while chances are I might be able to escape this fight, it gets a bit redundant when these moves will be back up almost as soon as we get out of combat so there is no chance of coming back when it's down.Anyone who would argue that 100% avoidance moves with no penalties are legitimate in a PvP game seriously needs to get their head out of the clouds.A few better examples of moves that are more in line with what PvP should be all about is the STAMINA endline for predators "Impenetrable": 12 seconds of 100% avoidance though the player is dazed and stifled for it's duration (I believe warriors share this AA, too), Berserker's Adrenaline: (while this isn't 100% avoidance, it's a great DR move) 50% damage absorbed at a huge power cost (40%), Sorcerer's Manashield: Damage absorbed comes at the cost of their power pool. There are all penalties for using these moves and that's the way it should be.The real crying is coming from the fighter community who refuses to give up anything they have. This was shown with the previous and no longer existant fighter revamp. They want the survivability, they want the CC removing abilities, they want the ability to tank while being "offensive", and they want the damage on top of all that. And that is fine by me. But give us scouts a way to counter all this stuff by way of PvP strikethrough. I really don't see any other solution at this point. If anyone has any, I'm all ears.

ChaoticVisions

10-22-2009, 12:34 PM

<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh but the parry belt is just fine... You guys are a jokeQQ and cry more about tanks avoiding your damage, this thread might make sense if you were upset about any other class avoiding your attacks other than a tank. lulz</blockquote>How long does Parry belt last and what is the reuse timer on it? Also having to wear it means what for my waist slot stats?Okay, thanks bye.Funny, you have no problems when other people have "over powered" abilities/gear, but if it affects you HOLD THE PHONE...</blockquote>Interesting how the parry belt doesnt count, even tho basicly every scout who can does have one, and it has no stifle effect or down side to useing it, and once you pop it you can swap out a better dps belt to wait out its cool down.Im a caster I have to deal with something worse than 100% parry moves, I get to deal with reflects that not only negate all the damage I would have done for a spell but toss a % of it right back in my face along with any CC effect attached to it.You guys should really L2P, if a parry move from a tank is popped on you, kite them till its gone just like your suppose to do with manashield if you cant burn it out or through it.I underestand its much much easier to QQ than to L2P but seriously QQ'n about a tank avoiding damage is well dumb, if you want to cry about the dps they can do while avoiding such damage, thats a whole another issue and the real one you should be upset about. Being able to mitigate tons of damage AND dps is really the problem. Not the fact that they can avoid it cause thats what they are suppose to do.</blockquote>Paill, please, please show me any scout who can beat some of the better brawlers/crusaders in the game today on ANY consistent basis. I'm not talking about some fresh off the boat brawler or crusader either. I'm talking about someone who has been around, knows their class, and is very well geared.It's not QQ, it's called wanting balance. I know that's something you have trouble comprehending as you apparently have an SK alt? :pAnyway, I challenge you. Find a swashie, brigand, or assassin who can destroy any of the top brawlers/crusaders in the game right now. I'm not asking sarcastically either. Because maybe after the years I've been playing my toon and all the tactics I've considered, I've somehow missed something in my strategies.Or even better yet, show me doing it yourself, since it's apparently that simple. Let's see it.

Costa

10-22-2009, 12:43 PM

Darkor i wished i could heal like that as a zerk in PVP <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but at the same time i know i have gaps in my gear that need upgrading for pvp and pve.There are some issues that probably need adjusting for pvp but at the same time the game was never built for pvp so sadly there will be certain classes that will be able to kill other classes easily where as others not so. From my own experiences in 1v1 pvp i am still yet to find a class i can kill easily as a zerk. I think the problem we're going to have with this thread is that the OP is asking for strike through for t9 due to having a hard time killing certain tank classes yet if thats applied it will make it so that some classes really would stand no chance to melee scouts in pvp.Asking for some fighter dps to be toned down is a resonable request i feel however we are all still awaiting the announcement about the next fighter changes with the next expansion so who knows which way things will go?As for scout dps from what i see they are still doing the most damage in PVP it's just that fighters have been given better ways to negate this in TSO. Crit mit has been one of the biggest methods at reducing damage being done as well as the changes to procs and poisens etc.The other side of it also is the fact that this is still pretty much gear based so if your trying to hit a tso raid/pvp geared fighter who is fully mastered etc and your running around in less than equal gear and abilities then yes you are going to find it hard to hurt them <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Raznor2

10-22-2009, 12:49 PM

<cite>Trilli@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>...We all know that 100% parry moves have really gone too far, particularly nowadays with monks and brawlers having not only 1 but 2 each (on short re-uses), and of course the ridiculous SK furor. These moves were brought into the game with PvE in mind and I can almost say for certain that if this game was first and foremost a PvP game, moves that made you invincible to damage would surely give you some sort of penalties or drawbacks while using them...</blockquote> First and Foremost a pvp game? There's going to be two pvp servers left, two. This game is designed for pve with pvp as an after thought.

Costa

10-22-2009, 12:56 PM

<cite>Trilli@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>A) The previous stated facts about the parry belt is incorrect. It is on a 1 HOUR recast and it is a 10 second buff.B) A strikethrough change might actually get the clowns that still use this item to stop using it? It's T8, soon to be T9 already. Can we move out of having to use a T6 item now, please?Good riddance to the parry belt, and all the other moves like it.We already know that fighter damage might be a bit over the top, but when the devs proposed a change to this matter, the community threw a little fit and they were forced to recall the fighter revamp. So if we aren't allowed to lower their damage, we have to look at the next best fix. We need to be able to hit them when their overpowered 100% avoidance moves are running. As was said earlier, these are doubling as extremely potent offensive tools, not defensive.Also, yes scouts are supposed to be able to get the surprise attack on you and that is their strength. I couldn't agree more. HOWEVER, when my "surprise" attack can be instantly negated by use of a CC effect negater (pot, signet, or class ability) and then have a 100% avoidance move popped on me, there's not much I can do at this point save running away. Fine. Now I'm engaged in combat and while chances are I might be able to escape this fight, it gets a bit redundant when these moves will be back up almost as soon as we get out of combat so there is no chance of coming back when it's down.Anyone who would argue that 100% avoidance moves with no penalties are legitimate in a PvP game seriously needs to get their head out of the clouds.A few better examples of moves that are more in line with what PvP should be all about is the STAMINA endline for predators "Impenetrable": 12 seconds of 100% avoidance though the player is dazed and stifled for it's duration (I believe warriors share this AA, too), Berserker's Adrenaline: (while this isn't 100% avoidance, it's a great DR move) 50% damage absorbed at a huge power cost (40%), Sorcerer's Manashield: Damage absorbed comes at the cost of their power pool. There are all penalties for using these moves and that's the way it should be.The real crying is coming from the fighter community who refuses to give up anything they have. This was shown with the previous and no longer existant fighter revamp. They want the survivability, they want the CC removing abilities, they want the ability to tank while being "offensive", and they want the damage on top of all that. And that is fine by me. But give us scouts a way to counter all this stuff by way of PvP strikethrough. I really don't see any other solution at this point. If anyone has any, I'm all ears.</blockquote>Please, please, PLEASE!!! Stop saying fighters when you actually mean SK's and brawlers. Sorry but 3 out of 6 fighters is not all of us. SK is OP no hiding that fact in anything they do. They were given much love in TSO and are now ahead of pretty much all other fighters in most aspects of the game if that is PVP and PVE.The proposed previouse fighter changes were garbage based on the fact all fighters would have kept their current survivability but given more and bigger taunts at a cost of doing it all in def stance and not needing to bother with melee damage to do anything. The idea was to turn all fighters into taunt bots which would make tanking nearly as boring as playing a defiler <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Like i just said in my previouse post, yes some fighters need their dps toned down but as someone else has asked is it just fighters that are crazy hard to kill or do you have issues killing others also? And as it stands is it just the brawlers and sk's you struggle with or all 6 fighter classes?

Wytie

10-22-2009, 01:03 PM

<cite>Trilli@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh but the parry belt is just fine... You guys are a jokeQQ and cry more about tanks avoiding your damage, this thread might make sense if you were upset about any other class avoiding your attacks other than a tank. lulz</blockquote>How long does Parry belt last and what is the reuse timer on it? Also having to wear it means what for my waist slot stats?Okay, thanks bye.Funny, you have no problems when other people have "over powered" abilities/gear, but if it affects you HOLD THE PHONE...</blockquote>Interesting how the parry belt doesnt count, even tho basicly every scout who can does have one, and it has no stifle effect or down side to useing it, and once you pop it you can swap out a better dps belt to wait out its cool down.Im a caster I have to deal with something worse than 100% parry moves, I get to deal with reflects that not only negate all the damage I would have done for a spell but toss a % of it right back in my face along with any CC effect attached to it.You guys should really L2P, if a parry move from a tank is popped on you, kite them till its gone just like your suppose to do with manashield if you cant burn it out or through it.I underestand its much much easier to QQ than to L2P but seriously QQ'n about a tank avoiding damage is well dumb, if you want to cry about the dps they can do while avoiding such damage, thats a whole another issue and the real one you should be upset about. Being able to mitigate tons of damage AND dps is really the problem. Not the fact that they can avoid it cause thats what they are suppose to do.</blockquote>Paill, please, please show me any scout who can beat some of the better brawlers/crusaders in the game today on ANY consistent basis. I'm not talking about some fresh off the boat brawler or crusader either. I'm talking about someone who has been around, knows their class, and is very well geared.I dont disagree with you, but attacking tanks survivablitly, I do disagree it being the wrong issue here imo.It's not QQ, it's called wanting balance. I know that's something you have trouble comprehending as you apparently have an SK alt? :pIm horriable on my sk, but you cant kill anyone by just avoiding attacks.Anyway, I challenge you. Find a swashie, brigand, or assassin who can destroy any of the top brawlers/crusaders in the game right now. I'm not asking sarcastically either. Please. Show me. Because maybe after the years I've been playing my toon, I've somehow missed something in my strategies.So what, scouts are the sissors to the tanks rock now. You are just use to the last few xpacs where scouts were the win all class by popping temps and doing a straight burn on pretty much any class. That doesnt always work anymore like it use too, exp on tanks like it shouldnt ever have. You just have to be more aware of what your target is doing and what temps they are now popping, just like everyone else.</blockquote>I see scouts everyday doing exactly what they are supose to be doing, you do this too Trilli.Waiting for exact right second to drop in on their target and strike, then if that strike doesnt work, they back out and kite or run. It actually requires startagy now rather than pop temps, burn, collect chest from every class type.Now classes have counters that you actually have to deal with, that goes for all dps classes really.

ulleulle

10-22-2009, 01:08 PM

<cite>Bazill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Darkor i wished i could heal like that as a zerk in PVP <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /> but at the same time i know i have gaps in my gear that need upgrading for pvp and pve.There are some issues that probably need adjusting for pvp but at the same time the game was never built for pvp so sadly there will be certain classes that will be able to kill other classes easily where as others not so. From my own experiences in 1v1 pvp i am still yet to find a class i can kill easily as a zerk. I think the problem we're going to have with this thread is that the OP is asking for strike through for t9 due to having a hard time killing certain tank classes yet if thats applied it will make it so that some classes really would stand no chance to melee scouts in pvp.Asking for some fighter dps to be toned down is a resonable request i feel however we are all still awaiting the announcement about the next fighter changes with the next expansion so who knows which way things will go?As for scout dps from what i see they are still doing the most damage in PVP it's just that fighters have been given better ways to negate this in TSO. Crit mit has been one of the biggest methods at reducing damage being done as well as the changes to procs and poisens etc.The other side of it also is the fact that this is still pretty much gear based so if your trying to hit a tso raid/pvp geared fighter who is fully mastered etc and your running around in less than equal gear and abilities then yes you are going to find it hard to hurt them <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I call serious [Removed for Content] on the statement in blue.May i recommend you start using ACT instead of roling with a hunch.CheersJabib

Wytie

10-22-2009, 01:20 PM

<cite>ulleulle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bazill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Darkor i wished i could heal like that as a zerk in PVP <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /> but at the same time i know i have gaps in my gear that need upgrading for pvp and pve.There are some issues that probably need adjusting for pvp but at the same time the game was never built for pvp so sadly there will be certain classes that will be able to kill other classes easily where as others not so. From my own experiences in 1v1 pvp i am still yet to find a class i can kill easily as a zerk. I think the problem we're going to have with this thread is that the OP is asking for strike through for t9 due to having a hard time killing certain tank classes yet if thats applied it will make it so that some classes really would stand no chance to melee scouts in pvp.Asking for some fighter dps to be toned down is a resonable request i feel however we are all still awaiting the announcement about the next fighter changes with the next expansion so who knows which way things will go?As for scout dps from what i see they are still doing the most damage in PVP it's just that fighters have been given better ways to negate this in TSO. Crit mit has been one of the biggest methods at reducing damage being done as well as the changes to procs and poisens etc.The other side of it also is the fact that this is still pretty much gear based so if your trying to hit a tso raid/pvp geared fighter who is fully mastered etc and your running around in less than equal gear and abilities then yes you are going to find it hard to hurt them <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I call serious [Removed for Content] on the statement in blue.May i recommend you start using ACT instead of roling with a hunch.CheersJabib</blockquote>No doubt mages are the king pvp dps, but they can die instantly if they are not also careful.

ulleulle

10-22-2009, 01:29 PM

<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ulleulle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bazill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Darkor i wished i could heal like that as a zerk in PVP <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /> but at the same time i know i have gaps in my gear that need upgrading for pvp and pve.There are some issues that probably need adjusting for pvp but at the same time the game was never built for pvp so sadly there will be certain classes that will be able to kill other classes easily where as others not so. From my own experiences in 1v1 pvp i am still yet to find a class i can kill easily as a zerk. I think the problem we're going to have with this thread is that the OP is asking for strike through for t9 due to having a hard time killing certain tank classes yet if thats applied it will make it so that some classes really would stand no chance to melee scouts in pvp.Asking for some fighter dps to be toned down is a resonable request i feel however we are all still awaiting the announcement about the next fighter changes with the next expansion so who knows which way things will go?As for scout dps from what i see they are still doing the most damage in PVP it's just that fighters have been given better ways to negate this in TSO. Crit mit has been one of the biggest methods at reducing damage being done as well as the changes to procs and poisens etc.The other side of it also is the fact that this is still pretty much gear based so if your trying to hit a tso raid/pvp geared fighter who is fully mastered etc and your running around in less than equal gear and abilities then yes you are going to find it hard to hurt them <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I call serious [Removed for Content] on the statement in blue.May i recommend you start using ACT instead of roling with a hunch.CheersJabib</blockquote>No doubt mages are the king pvp dps, but they can die instantly if they are not also careful.</blockquote>Indead they can =)Glasscanon is not just a funny word,it actually means what it says.CheersJabib

spudsmckenzie2

10-22-2009, 01:32 PM

i had an assassin burn my guardian down 1v1 in less then 15 sec he he has close to 80% aviodance. you guys dont need strikethrough. as far as bruisers and monks go they have always been the nemesis of scout and it should stay that way imo. gives scouts a little challenge in picking their targets. my 2 cents. -weaklings

Vincente

10-22-2009, 01:37 PM

Strikethrough is a thought, perhaps a better idea would be just to nerf the ability during pvp combat, instead of a shadowknight reposting 100% of frontal attacks make it an uncontested 30% parry for the duration in pvp. You could do something similar with monks tsunami and the bruiser myth.Also L2p is a very weak counter-argument, generally if your a player of any worth your not going to pop furor, or your parry ability and just let somone snare you and run away, If your an SK you can snare, bruisers have drag and sonic punch, most monks have mantis leap. On top of that most players wait to use their flavor of overpowered parry abilities until the middle of the fight so its not likely that the scout has more than half his HP at this point generally getting away is either impossible or a moot point. You seem to have alot of hatred for scouts paill but I suggest you give one a try on test copy or something, they're not all that they're cracked up to be.

Wytie

10-22-2009, 02:01 PM

<cite>Vincente@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Strikethrough is a thought, perhaps a better idea would be just to nerf the ability during pvp combat, instead of a shadowknight reposting 100% of frontal attacks make it an uncontested 30% parry for the duration in pvp. You could do something similar with monks tsunami and the bruiser myth.Also L2p is a very weak counter-argument, generally if your a player of any worth your not going to pop furor, or your parry ability and just let somone snare you and run away, If your an SK you can snare, bruisers have drag and sonic punch, most monks have mantis leap. On top of that most players wait to use their flavor of overpowered parry abilities until the middle of the fight so its not likely that the scout has more than half his HP at this point generally getting away is either impossible or a moot point. You seem to have alot of hatred for scouts paill but I suggest you give one a try on test copy or something, they're not all that they're cracked up to be.</blockquote>Iv been fighting scouts for a long time, up until now( now as in this xpac) they have had just about every advantage in most all aspecs of the game. While I agree Crusaders are over the top, nerfing tanks avoidance moves just doesnt seem the way to go. Reduce the amount of damage they can do while having such high avoidance moves seems more realistic but thats just me I guess. No tank should ever die faster than the rest of the arch classes.

PeaSy1

10-23-2009, 07:58 AM

Dont sins/rangers also have a parry of some sort? At bottom of sta line right?

Paikis

10-23-2009, 09:20 AM

<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>No tank should ever die faster than the rest of the arch classes.</blockquote>And none of them do, even without their 100% avoidance moves.

Faenril

10-23-2009, 09:52 AM

<cite>Denee@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dont sins/rangers also have a parry of some sort? At bottom of sta line right?</blockquote>They do, but they are stiffled for the duration of this ability.

max.power

10-23-2009, 09:54 AM

<cite>Naemesis@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Denee@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dont sins/rangers also have a parry of some sort? At bottom of sta line right?</blockquote>They do, but they are stiffled for the duration of this ability.</blockquote>... and dazed, not to forget.

bladechef

10-23-2009, 10:08 AM

This argument may appear relevant to some scout mains, but I think the (major concern of this thread) avoidance short-terms are exactly where they should be. Yes avoidance is high for well-geared fighters. Yes some of them have 12-15 second buffs for 100% parry/riposte or whathaveyou. With the exception of the Shadowknight AA "Furor" I think they all do exactly as they should. Now, as stated in previous posts, SKs are in a league of their own (as we all know... which is why there are hundreds of SKs all over PvP servers atm). This being a separate issue I won't go into it much, but suffice it to say I think they require some ... "toning" in all aspects. Hard to disagree with it reguardless of your class/playstyle.There are numerous abilities in the game that allow, briefly, for different classes to avoid damage: crusader/cleric DA, monk tsunami, bruiser myth clickey... to name a few. From the point of view of a melee scout they definitely pose a threat, but look how long they last! Aside from Manashield (which can be as much a curse as a benefit) none exceed 15 seconds. Scouts get the tools AND the adaptability to counter these things. Not unlike a mage popping MS, the fighters are begging to be CCd while immunities are up. Maybe your class doesn't have the proper non-melee CC? Find a different route. With crit mit and overall avoidances as they are a monk doesn't pump out DPS by any stretch of the imagination... and unlike a bruiser they only have one leap to close the gap between a fleeing player. Should they lose Tsunami in PvP because some scouts don't have the sense to snare/sprint/cheapshot/deaggro whatever to get away for 12 seconds?With the use of tactics and some minimal attention being paid to opponent's buffs most scouts can still do deadly damage to most fighter classes. Can you wade in and brute-force burn them like you did in RoK? Not nearly so many. Are any fighters completely unkillable for any scout? Some may be much tougher than others, but aside from SKs or a player with the very "Best-of-the-Best" gear I don't see that being the case.My point is: There should be a counterpoint. Brawlers are supposed to be an extremely hard fight for melee. Scouts have massive inherent adaptability via the use of different poisons/AA specs or gear choices, still put up outstanding numbers in PvP (if they're worth their salt) and have the tools to assess and/or get away (tracking and uninterruptable evac) should the situation be less ideal than they wish to partake. TG zerg does NOT come into this considerationcorrect me if I'm wrong

MokiCh

10-23-2009, 12:13 PM

I'm not sure why, in this discussion of 100% avoidance moves, all everyone talks about is the plight of the melee scouts. I don't think any scouts need strikethrough, but if you do want to give it to them, why only the melees? As a ranger I have just as many problems with 100% avoidance moves as a melee based scout, with the possible exception that I may or may not have to deal with frontal riposte damage if I'm at range, which isn't always the case. Bards have some spell damage that they can use to bypass the avoidance, but they also have a lot of combat art/AA damage, why do they not merit strikethrough?In the history of EQ2 PvP, scouts, and melee scouts in particular, have always been right at the top for PvP classes. They've lost the top spot to SKs and Paladins (yes, them too) for now, but they still have all the tools they need to beat a tank popping a 100% avoidance move. The real problem, as Paill rightly points out, is that tanks are suddenly able to dish out almost scout level dps while having all this defence and avoidance. It follows, then, that what needs to be done is not to give scouts a powerful ability that they don't need, but rather to tone down tank dps.With TSO, rather than do some real class balancing in PvP to combat the problem of the legions of scout gankers, what Sony did was make everyone a winner. Even utility and healers can put out a lot of damage in pvp with the right spec now. For tanks in particular, their offense went up considerably with no cutbacks in their defense. I think the solution would be to do what should have been done with EOF, when it was already abundantly clear that PvP was seriously out of whack: do some real class balancing in T9. Tanks tank, healers heal, dpsers dps.

Chia_Pet

10-23-2009, 12:31 PM

Well Im decently Geared with full PvP armor and jewelry and I still find scouts that can kick my behind. the ones that do know to back off when i pop my Divine aura then return and finish me. keep in mind I have My Lay on Hands base heal maxed out so i can get a [Removed for Content] good heal from it, with also 15k Hp self buffed.So im wondering, if other scouts( not rangers) can kill me, why is there a problem? seems to me some people dont come up with gear choices the best suit PvP, how many scouts have stun/stifle gear on when fighting a tank? and no the tribunal cloak isnt enough. sometimes you need to switch your gear out for what/who you are fighting, a Toxic BL breastplate for an SK for example, a switch to jewery with stun/stifle procs for other tanks. keep a slight distance from the tank as you move around him, stun him right before you go in to do your damage so his auto attack doesnt land and is wasted, crap like this wins fights, and quite frankly i dont think scouts should have a fair time killing tanks at all. scouts tear every other class up, they dont need to do it with tanks.As a tank, i get one shotted by thinwizzy who just posted, odd he has a problem with us doing decent damage yet, i not only get one shotted, its withOUT being critted on, and i have 15k Hp? how fair is that? better suggestion is, if you dont think you can kill a tank one on one, dont, quit complaining like you should be able to own every class.theres a outcry from scouts because they cant kill fighters, wohhooppdeedoooo

Chia_Pet

10-23-2009, 12:39 PM

<cite>MokiChan wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not sure why, in this discussion of 100% avoidance moves, all everyone talks about is the plight of the melee scouts. I don't think any scouts need strikethrough, but if you do want to give it to them, why only the melees? As a ranger I have just as many problems with 100% avoidance moves as a melee based scout, with the possible exception that I may or may not have to deal with frontal riposte damage if I'm at range, which isn't always the case. Bards have some spell damage that they can use to bypass the avoidance, but they also have a lot of combat art/AA damage, why do they not merit strikethrough?In the history of EQ2 PvP, scouts, and melee scouts in particular, have always been right at the top for PvP classes. They've lost the top spot to SKs and Paladins (yes, them too) for now, but they still have all the tools they need to beat a tank popping a 100% avoidance move. The real problem, as Paill rightly points out, is that tanks are suddenly able to dish out almost scout level dps while having all this defence and avoidance. It follows, then, that what needs to be done is not to give scouts a powerful ability that they don't need, but rather to tone down tank dps.With TSO, rather than do some real class balancing in PvP to combat the problem of the legions of scout gankers, what Sony did was make everyone a winner. Even utility and healers can put out a lot of damage in pvp with the right spec now. For tanks in particular, their offense went up considerably with no cutbacks in their defense. I think the solution would be to do what should have been done with EOF, when it was already abundantly clear that PvP was seriously out of whack: do some real class balancing in T9. Tanks tank, healers heal, dpsers dps.</blockquote>Then we go RIGHT back to where we were a year ago where all the people running around are scouts and all the players with the most kills are scouts and all the players with the least deaths are scouts....no thank you. everyone should have a fair shot at killing most other classes with a set of classes that they cant or have extreme difficulty in dealing with.WE SHOULD NOT GO BACK TO WHERE THE ONLY PLAYERS THAT CAN KILL ARE SCOUTS.Now you wanna drop some of the damage a SK does? I can see that, they are a dime a dozen now, with thier taps healing them at the same time they are doing damage is insane. whoever made the desicion to increase the damage of HT again was amoron, especially since its on a 5 min timer that can be reduced AND is a spell so if its resisted it can be recast 2 secs later till it lands. Ive seen people who literally BLOW at this game make a SK and do decently with it simply because of the easy mode. Now as a Pally i dont see anything too wrong with our DPS in fights, we only top parses when we AOE, but individually one on one, except for faithful cry, we dont do a whole lot of damage. granted when you start putting certain peices of gear together that increase Base damage coupled with the Shadow tree that also increases Base damage on some CA's i can see if there might be a problem, but scouts do PLENTY of damage as it is.

Chia_Pet

10-23-2009, 12:46 PM

Also I dont understand this cry of insane DPS for tanks...I mean really, do tanks tear you down in less then 5 secs? like scouts do to everyone else? NO I fight a scout it takes awhile to drop him, and if the scout is worried about taking damage, boost yer own avoidance for crying outloud. quit trying to max yer melee crit work on just double attack, wear stuff that boosts you own avoidance, hell tanks are melee too ya know.

Chia_Pet

10-23-2009, 12:48 PM

<cite>Vincente@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Strikethrough is a thought, perhaps a better idea would be just to nerf the ability during pvp combat, instead of a shadowknight reposting 100% of frontal attacks make it an uncontested 30% parry for the duration in pvp. You could do something similar with monks tsunami and the bruiser myth.Also L2p is a very weak counter-argument, generally if your a player of any worth your not going to pop furor, or your parry ability and just let somone snare you and run away, If your an SK you can snare, bruisers have drag and sonic punch, most monks have mantis leap. On top of that most players wait to use their flavor of overpowered parry abilities until the middle of the fight so its not likely that the scout has more than half his HP at this point generally getting away is either impossible or a moot point. You seem to have alot of hatred for scouts paill but I suggest you give one a try on test copy or something, they're not all that they're cracked up to be.</blockquote>problem is the L2P arguement doesnt seem to be valid until you realize the scouts that do drop tanks like charmanevac, predacane, Dryken etc arent posting in here...

Chia_Pet

10-23-2009, 12:57 PM

A tank is nothing more then a big peice of meat with a huge weapon, through out history this has been the case. and the best way to beat such a beast has historically always been to either keep your distance and kill him from range, or keep him off balance(stunned) so he cant swing back until you have finished him off. its how warriors in the past took on well armored fighters going back centuries.learn from history, use it to your advantage. get soem freaking cheap stun stifle jelry off the broker, karnors ebony bangle for example, load it on when you go up against a tank, then come back here and tell me you cant drop him.I DARE YOU

Eboncross

10-23-2009, 01:10 PM

<cite>Chia_Pet wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vincente@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Strikethrough is a thought, perhaps a better idea would be just to nerf the ability during pvp combat, instead of a shadowknight reposting 100% of frontal attacks make it an uncontested 30% parry for the duration in pvp. You could do something similar with monks tsunami and the bruiser myth.Also L2p is a very weak counter-argument, generally if your a player of any worth your not going to pop furor, or your parry ability and just let somone snare you and run away, If your an SK you can snare, bruisers have drag and sonic punch, most monks have mantis leap. On top of that most players wait to use their flavor of overpowered parry abilities until the middle of the fight so its not likely that the scout has more than half his HP at this point generally getting away is either impossible or a moot point. You seem to have alot of hatred for scouts paill but I suggest you give one a try on test copy or something, they're not all that they're cracked up to be.</blockquote>problem is the L2P arguement doesnt seem to be valid until you realize the scouts that do drop tanks like charmanevac, predacane, Dryken etc arent posting in here...</blockquote>Totally agree although Dryken is the only one that will actully attack. The other two are runners that only jump in when the odds are in thier favor. Dryken is a tuff cookie to kill. It's funny these guys that have a stun or stifle every 2 seconds go off, fetering poisons going off every second even after you just cure it, evac, stealth, track, and not to mention the in-combat run speed say were OP. Ticks me off.Ill take nerfing my damage to lower amounts for track and class evac hows that sound? QQ

Siphar

10-23-2009, 01:38 PM

<cite>Darkor@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Rangers dont need any type of help. They have a very high hit chance and actually hit throu some avoidance moves and the most important part, they deal their dmg from range (safety!).And anyone comparing 100 % avoidance move with minuts of recast to the scout parry belt, a lower tier item on a 30 minut re-use is clueless anyway.</blockquote>Correct me if i'm wrong but since when does being at range = safety?Have you ever seen a mage in pvp, they cast nicely at range! all scouts and fighters can use a bow and all healers can heal through damage.The only relatively safe distance for any ranger is 35m+ from casters...Focus aim was OP in T7, but it should be given back now - especially if you look at some of the other sick abilities, SK cough...

Siphar

10-23-2009, 01:40 PM

<cite>Denee@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dont sins/rangers also have a parry of some sort? At bottom of sta line right?</blockquote>Yes, but when activated for 12 seconds, you cannot use any other CA/spell or ability... basically just sit there... counting the seconds down and getting powned by spell damage...

Ahlana

10-23-2009, 02:25 PM

<cite>Siphar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Denee@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dont sins/rangers also have a parry of some sort? At bottom of sta line right?</blockquote>Yes, but when activated for 12 seconds, you cannot use any other CA/spell or ability... basically just sit there... counting the seconds down and getting powned by spell damage...</blockquote>Yup not even worth the wasted AA points.

Darkor

10-23-2009, 03:04 PM

<cite>Siphar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkor@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Rangers dont need any type of help. They have a very high hit chance and actually hit throu some avoidance moves and the most important part, they deal their dmg from range (safety!).And anyone comparing 100 % avoidance move with minuts of recast to the scout parry belt, a lower tier item on a 30 minut re-use is clueless anyway.</blockquote>Correct me if i'm wrong but since when does being at range = safety?Have you ever seen a mage in pvp, they cast nicely at range! all scouts and fighters can use a bow and all healers can heal through damage.The only relatively safe distance for any ranger is 35m+ from casters...Focus aim was OP in T7, but it should be given back now - especially if you look at some of the other sick abilities, SK cough...</blockquote>Grats on bringing mages into this thread when its all about T8 avoidance on tanks. No ranger needs ANY type of help against melees.

MokiCh

10-23-2009, 03:07 PM

Just because you get owned by Rangers doesn't mean Siphar doesn't have a point.And no, range does not equal safety unless you're fighting total scrubs fresh off the boat.

Vincente

10-23-2009, 03:28 PM

I have a ranger and an assassin, my ranger can kill just about anything one on one, I don't have any complaints about how he plays atm. My assassin on the other hand is a different story with some effort I was able to kill most warriors and brawlers, but I usually had to pull out my entire bag of tricks to do it and pray that they didn't parry anything big, I didn't even bother engaging any of the SK's after I beat on one for about 7 minutes and couldn't do jack to him. Never had to fight any pallys on venekor but from what I've seen on naggy I probably couldn't beat them on my assassin.

Vincente

10-23-2009, 03:30 PM

<cite>Chia_Pet wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vincente@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Strikethrough is a thought, perhaps a better idea would be just to nerf the ability during pvp combat, instead of a shadowknight reposting 100% of frontal attacks make it an uncontested 30% parry for the duration in pvp. You could do something similar with monks tsunami and the bruiser myth.Also L2p is a very weak counter-argument, generally if your a player of any worth your not going to pop furor, or your parry ability and just let somone snare you and run away, If your an SK you can snare, bruisers have drag and sonic punch, most monks have mantis leap. On top of that most players wait to use their flavor of overpowered parry abilities until the middle of the fight so its not likely that the scout has more than half his HP at this point generally getting away is either impossible or a moot point. You seem to have alot of hatred for scouts paill but I suggest you give one a try on test copy or something, they're not all that they're cracked up to be.</blockquote>problem is the L2P arguement doesnt seem to be valid until you realize the scouts that do drop tanks like charmanevac, predacane, Dryken etc arent posting in here...</blockquote>By that logic I don't see any of the tanks that shrug off a full group beating on them posting here either.

Chia_Pet

10-23-2009, 03:53 PM

Shrugging off full groups is based largely on the poor equipment of the group and the end game Raid gear of the tank. the ones that do it have jewelry that wards against 2k damage and replenishes 1k worth of wards per 2 secs.they wear things like Mark of the Dragonslayer,Ring of Repulsion, Xebnok's Band of might...only one of which is useable by fighters only.Its all about gear, I havent seen many scounts other then onyx scouts with these items...of course Ive shrugged off my share of groups too but apparently you dont know me...

Sprin

10-23-2009, 04:00 PM

<cite>Trilli@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>With all the uncontested avoidance adornments, gear, and AAs, you are making it near impossible for the scout to capitalize on what they do best. Damage.</blockquote>So you want to make it impossible for tanks to capitalize on what they do best. Absorb / Avoid / block your damage..I see..Certain classes are supposed to beat certain classes, and certain classes are supposed to NOT beat others... Scouts can destroy mages / priests / other scouts easily... and you want to be able to destroy tanks easily too... tuff nuts... thats what tanks are supposed to do, take punches...You just want an "I win" button for your class vs ALL other classes, understood... QQ more, thanks bye

Thinwizzy

10-23-2009, 04:04 PM

<cite>Chia_Pet wrote:</cite><blockquote>As a tank, i get one shotted by thinwizzy who just posted, odd he has a problem with us doing decent damage yet, i not only get one shotted, its withOUT being critted on, and i have 15k Hp? how fair is that? better suggestion is, if you dont think you can kill a tank one on one, dont, quit complaining like you should be able to own every class.theres a outcry from scouts because they cant kill fighters, wohhooppdeedoooo</blockquote>I don't have a problem with tanks doing damage. The point I was trying to make is that fighters are defensive first, offensive 2nd. The job of a tank is based off tanks having high melee avoidance. The OP seems to have an objection to tanks being able to avoid melee damage, particularly while dishing out decent damage at the same time. I was trying to point out that avoidance is more crucial to a fighter, and removing that would be more damaging to that class' role than removing some dps would be. Adding a stifle component to some of the 100% avoidance moves would be much better than introducing multiple strikethrough items to scout classes.Adding in multiple strikethrough items, whether it is signets, item procs, item effects, clickies or anything else, could be very unbalancing. This effect would not work only against the 100% avoidance moves, but it would be effective against all classes at all times.Just out of curiosity, what would the response be if some of us mages asked for an item that made our spells unresistable for 10 seconds?

Sprin

10-23-2009, 04:27 PM

<cite>Thinwizzy@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Chia_Pet wrote:</cite><blockquote>As a tank, i get one shotted by thinwizzy who just posted, odd he has a problem with us doing decent damage yet, i not only get one shotted, its withOUT being critted on, and i have 15k Hp? how fair is that? better suggestion is, if you dont think you can kill a tank one on one, dont, quit complaining like you should be able to own every class.theres a outcry from scouts because they cant kill fighters, wohhooppdeedoooo</blockquote>Just out of curiosity, what would the response be if some of us mages asked for an item that made our spells unresistable for 10 seconds?</blockquote>Resists are broken, i would say fantastic, that would be a start to fixing them... there should be no resists... the level of resist the person has on their gear should absorb a certain amount of the damage...I think the only people that should be able to "resist" a mage attack is another mage..Lore would indicate that long years of training in the arts of magic and the defense against magic would allow you to "counter" the incoming spell, scouts and tanks know how to wear heavy armor avoid / block / dodge melee attacks, because thats what they have trained in...... why the FERK can they outright resist a spell incoming from a mage...the lore in this game is borked.... beyond comprehension... why can a mage avoid or parry a melee attack? they wear no armor and have no shield... they are trained in the arts of spells and magic.....The whole idea of blocking / parrying / avoiding / resisting needs to be completely revamped based on borked rules that were created for the game out of pure laziness..scouts / brawlers are nimble and should have higher avoidance.... much higher then tanks... plate tanks wear heavy armor and can carry heavy shields... their avoidance should be hardly anything,, they cant move in that stuff.....why can a scout, trained only in the arts of trickery, close combat fighting, tracking, control effects resist a magic attack from a mage? [Removed for Content] is that about... what in lore would provide an answer for that? sure his armor / weapons / jewelry should be able to mitigate some of that, as a spell coming in would be able to absorb some of that incoming magical damage, but what is there that could explain an outright "RESISTED" ... [Removed for Content] is that? there is nothing in the scouts (except mabye bards in a limited capacity) arsenal that should alow them to resist a magic attack, nor a tank (except maybe crusaders in a limited capacity)...Resists, avoidance, blocks, dodges, parrys are all borked in the game... so what is the point of crying over how they are borked... one person wants them borked to give their class an advantage, and another wants them borked in a different way..Fix them and then lets see where things stand.... but that will never happen... so we have arguments on here that will never fix anything... only bork it in a different way

Darkor

10-23-2009, 04:37 PM

<cite>MokiChan wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just because you get owned by Rangers doesn't mean Siphar doesn't have a point.And no, range does not equal safety unless you're fighting total scrubs fresh off the boat.</blockquote>I dont get owned by rangers im sorry <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Vincente

10-23-2009, 04:43 PM

Oh, I know you Arthur, hell I used to play with you, I think your a pretty good pally. But what I would like to see changed doesn't even involve the paladin class, I played one on test copy and while I don't think they're perfectly balanced I don't think they're terribly overpowered either.Back on topic this issue is about classes that get some effect where they parry 100% of incoming attacks for x amount of time with no downside. In my proposal I offered a different solution from strikethrough in just reducing the overall effectiveness of the abilities like furor and the myth clicky in pvp, the number I gave may have been a bit extreme, pehaps 50% would be more in line.I'm not really for giving scouts strikethrough I don't think it will really solve this problem without creating others.However at the same time adding a stifle component would either require reworking an ability, which isn't completely a bad thing, as furor is pretty far out of line in comparison to stonewall that pally gets (but will never happen lest the 50,000 shadowknights flip their shiz.) Or scripting it into the only happens during pvp thing, (which hasn't been done before to my knowledge)

MokiCh

10-23-2009, 05:35 PM

<cite>Chia_Pet wrote:</cite><blockquote>Shrugging off full groups is based largely on the poor equipment of the group and the end game Raid gear of the tank. the ones that do it have jewelry that wards against 2k damage and replenishes 1k worth of wards per 2 secs.they wear things like Mark of the Dragonslayer,Ring of Repulsion, Xebnok's Band of might...only one of which is useable by fighters only.Its all about gear, I havent seen many scounts other then onyx scouts with these items...of course Ive shrugged off my share of groups too but apparently you dont know me...</blockquote>While this is true, I don't think the game should be balanced around characters with top end raid gear in every slot. If you're going to bring gear into the equation, balance around full PvP gear + fabled epic weapon.

10-23-2009, 06:21 PM

Yup, cause its so hard to snare and turn around for a few seconds. Brawlers have almost no way to stop people in pvp on top of that. drag itself lasts like 2 seconds, and if you die in that time your horrible.Crusaders on the other hand, just completely overpowered and dont need these abilities.

Imoke

10-23-2009, 09:42 PM

<cite>Darkor@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MokiChan wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just because you get owned by Rangers doesn't mean Siphar doesn't have a point.And no, range does not equal safety unless you're fighting total scrubs fresh off the boat.</blockquote>I dont get owned by rangers im sorry <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>That's not what Pudaan tells me.

Xehx

10-23-2009, 09:53 PM

Uh oh... Here we go!

bladechef

10-23-2009, 10:33 PM

Darkor(x) dies to lvl 77 pally 1v1true storypretty sure Pudaan just needs to blink in his direction to ilicit a revive option

Wytie

10-23-2009, 10:42 PM

<cite>Thinwizzy@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just out of curiosity, what would the response be if some of us mages asked for an item that made our spells unresistable for 10 seconds?</blockquote>Unresistable for 10 sec? Heck Id love to have something that made our spells unreflectable also. We have to bypass 2 checks for spell avoidance and these scouts are upset with one. Thats not counting StoneSkins but everyone has to deal with that.Nothing better than standing there casting for a few seconds only to punch yourself in the face, and prey you didnt just CC yourself. lol

Chia_Pet

10-24-2009, 03:33 AM