Poisons ARE a rogue/predator professional spell! [Archive]

Davngr1

10-18-2009, 04:10 AM

poison is a professional spell. my scouts have used them since a very low level and with the coming changes to crits and crit bonus being directly tied to class, the crits would be self regulated naturally. when the changes to regulate "item proc dmg" where made there was no reason to include poisons, since poisons are not an "item" they are an abiity that can only be used by certain professions in other words a professional spell. clearly these changes where made because certain items where becoming to hard to control BUT another reason that these changes where made is because certain classes that where not suppose to do large amount of dmg where indeed using these items to "pad" their dmg. it is then understandable that you would want to limit the damge of these "items" that can basically be worn by any class(tanks,healers) BUT poisons are in fact limite to 4 dps classes and are very much part of these classes professional duties as dmg classes. lets face it.. these 4 scout classes are invited to raids to provide dmg crippling a dmg source that has been with these classes since day one is not what these changes where intended to do and said changes should be reverted to original status as a proffesional spell. i welcome and input or views on the matter, thanks.

Kulaf

10-18-2009, 06:04 PM

Applying the poison is the class skill. The poison itself is a proc and should be bound by any and all game mechanics that cover weapon procs.

Davngr1

10-18-2009, 09:47 PM

that makes no sense.. procs where not nerfed it was item/gear procs that where nerfed. poison is as much part of the rogue/pred class as arias or friggid gift is part of the troubs and wizards. soe dropped the ball letting poisons get bunched in with item/gear procs. people who enjoy playing scouts should understand that this is an unjustifiable nerf to a scout professional ability. this is how it starts and then come next expansion rogue/preds will be part of the useless bunch... poison dmg was never over powerd or out of line. these changes should have never happend and sure they don't seem like that big of a deal now but come next expansion when everyone is running around with 100% crit melee/spell/range/heal, this will make a difference.

Kulaf

10-19-2009, 12:51 PM

Sure it does. The poison is made my Alchemists.....not Scouts. So why should the Scouts base damage mods affect the damage of the poisons?

Nevao

10-20-2009, 10:40 AM

A couple of questions:<ol><li>What class are you playing? <ul><li>If it's a Predator class then the Spell Crit Bonus you were getting from the AA line pre-change was adjusted to give a similar amount of damage bonus to poisons. It might have been a small drop, but my parses were not significantly different. Now those who had a 100% Spell Crit would obviously see downward difference but I would love to see how anyone but very top-end raiders with Avatar quality gear did that without sacrificing Ranged Crit, Ranged Double Attack, DPS and Haste.</li><li>If it's a Rogue class than just how much spell crit did you really have? I fail to see how you could have had enough to truly affect your DPS, but I could be wrong on that.</li></ul></li><li>What were your parses pre-change and post-change? Have you seen a significant drop that you can then show to back up your claims. "It feels like it's less" is not enough to start making mechanics changes.</li><li>If you can't provide parses can you show us the math where we have theoretically significant shifts in DPS?</li></ol>These questions are of course assuming that you are trying to prove we lost something (which you have not proven). If you're just asking for a flat DPS increase you need be more clear and state that that is what you are looking for and that this is the method you think should be pursued. Either way at the moment you are claiming a massive injustice has been done, but you haven't done anything to back it up other than state "Facts" that are solely your opinion.And please, don't pull out the sky is falling, the dominoes are about to start falling argument. That rhetoric does nothing to advance the discussion and only alienates your point by driving people away.

Davngr1

10-20-2009, 01:01 PM

<cite>Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sure it does. The poison is made my Alchemists.....not Scouts. So why should the Scouts base damage mods affect the damage of the poisons?</blockquote> so how does a proc made by alchys that can only be used by 4 profession in anyway make it an item/gear proc? it's not, it's of its own brand and that in it self makes it a professional spell NOT a generic gear/item proc.

Davngr1

10-20-2009, 01:16 PM

<cite>Nevao wrote:</cite><blockquote>A couple of questions:<ol><li>What class are you playing? <ul><li>If it's a Predator class then the Spell Crit Bonus you were getting from the AA line pre-change was adjusted to give a similar amount of damage bonus to poisons. It might have been a small drop, but my parses were not significantly different. Now those who had a 100% Spell Crit would obviously see downward difference but I would love to see how anyone but very top-end raiders with Avatar quality gear did that without sacrificing Ranged Crit, Ranged Double Attack, DPS and Haste.</li><li>If it's a Rogue class than just how much spell crit did you really have? I fail to see how you could have had enough to truly affect your DPS, but I could be wrong on that.</li></ul></li><li>What were your parses pre-change and post-change? Have you seen a significant drop that you can then show to back up your claims. "It feels like it's less" is not enough to start making mechanics changes.</li><li>If you can't provide parses can you show us the math where we have theoretically significant shifts in DPS?</li></ol>These questions are of course assuming that you are trying to prove we lost something (which you have not proven). If you're just asking for a flat DPS increase you need be more clear and state that that is what you are looking for and that this is the method you think should be pursued. Either way at the moment you are claiming a massive injustice has been done, but you haven't done anything to back it up other than state "Facts" that are solely your opinion.And please, don't pull out the sky is falling, the dominoes are about to start falling argument. That rhetoric does nothing to advance the discussion and only alienates your point by driving people away. </blockquote> my scouts did not have a huge dps drop from the changes BUT that does not mean that poison is not a professional ability. after all ONLY 4 professions can use them. im not starting a "teh sky is falling" thread and i never once said "i feel like it's less". you need to read my post again and realize that, what i have written clearly has more to do with future changes then it does with current mechanics. exactly, there was not a huge drop in dps, because? poison was not out of line or overpowered AND come next expansion(100% crit melee/spell/heal/range) the fact that it can't crit/modified will indeed break that professional ability. i have seen this happen to my guard, necro and troub. it starts small or with something insignificant but as new expansions roll out with new mechanics the class falls off.

Nevao

10-20-2009, 01:58 PM

Woot! The quote game! I can play it too.<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote> people who enjoy playing scouts should understand that this is an unjustifiable nerf to a scout professional ability. this is how it starts and then come next expansion rogue/preds will be part of the useless bunch... poison dmg was never over powerd or out of line. these changes should have never happend and sure they don't seem like that big of a deal now but come next expansion when everyone is running around with 100% crit melee/spell/range/heal, this will make a difference.</blockquote>You also go on in your last post to say it starts small and start citing other classes that you feel are not where they should be. Sounds suspiciously to me like the sky is falling. But I am a simpleton with reading comprhension skill issues. Regardless we're both digressesing from the content of your original post.The point I'm trying to make though is that you are saying "WE'VE BEEN NERFED!" (I can break out the quotes if you want again) and that "we're going to feel it in the future!" But you haven't shown any proof how we're being affected today much less in the future. If you provided some kind of math or theory than we could have a proper discussion, but you're not. Working backwards to your first point I will have to say I whole heartedly disagree that Poisons are proffesion spells. Do you cast them? Do they appear in your knoweldge book? Are they unique to a class? Do you get them automatically as you level? The answer is No to all of those questions. Due to that, espcially the knowledge book and casting points I would say they are not Profession spells and have never been. Further to the point, all item procs were acting as spells. That was the stated reason for the "changes" to the Warlock Propogations AA when RoK hit and why it was Intelligence and Spell Crit modifying them, not Strength or Mellee/Ranged crit like you would expect for these four classes.But regardless of if they are proffession spells or not you are asking them to do something today that they do not do. Crit. They have in the past but they do not today and their damage was adjusted to compensate for them not. To state the obvious: Making them profression spells so they can Crit, per your request, will make them do more damage. I stand by my original assessment that you are asking for a Damage Increase to four classes. However you have provided no proof that those four classes are out of line DPS wise, or are being negatively impacted today or in the next expansion. You simply want them to behave a certain way that they are not and phrasing it as a "Fact" that they should.

Kulaf

10-20-2009, 02:22 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sure it does. The poison is made my Alchemists.....not Scouts. So why should the Scouts base damage mods affect the damage of the poisons?</blockquote> so how does a proc made by alchys that can only be used by 4 profession in anyway make it an item/gear proc? it's not, it's of its own brand and that in it self makes it a professional spell NOT a generic gear/item proc.</blockquote>It is a temporary item proc that is in effect "added" to the weapon. But it is still an item proc not a spell.

Davngr1

10-20-2009, 06:00 PM

<cite>Nevao wrote:</cite><blockquote>Woot! The quote game! I can play it too.<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote> people who enjoy playing scouts should understand that this is an unjustifiable nerf to a scout professional ability. this is how it starts and then come next expansion rogue/preds will be part of the useless bunch... poison dmg was never over powerd or out of line. these changes should have never happend and sure they don't seem like that big of a deal now but come next expansion when everyone is running around with 100% crit melee/spell/range/heal, this will make a difference.</blockquote>You also go on in your last post to say it starts small and start citing other classes that you feel are not where they should be. Sounds suspiciously to me like the sky is falling. But I am a simpleton with reading comprhension skill issues. Regardless we're both digressesing from the content of your original post.The point I'm trying to make though is that you are saying "WE'VE BEEN NERFED!" (I can break out the quotes if you want again) and that "we're going to feel it in the future!" But you haven't shown any proof how we're being affected today much less in the future. If you provided some kind of math or theory than we could have a proper discussion, but you're not. Working backwards to your first point I will have to say I whole heartedly disagree that Poisons are proffesion spells. Do you cast them? Do they appear in your knoweldge book? Are they unique to a class? Do you get them automatically as you level? The answer is No to all of those questions. Due to that, espcially the knowledge book and casting points I would say they are not Profession spells and have never been. Further to the point, all item procs were acting as spells. That was the stated reason for the "changes" to the Warlock Propogations AA when RoK hit and why it was Intelligence and Spell Crit modifying them, not Strength or Mellee/Ranged crit like you would expect for these four classes.But regardless of if they are proffession spells or not you are asking them to do something today that they do not do. Crit. They have in the past but they do not today and their damage was adjusted to compensate for them not. To state the obvious: Making them profression spells so they can Crit, per your request, will make them do more damage. I stand by my original assessment that you are asking for a Damage Increase to four classes. However you have provided no proof that those four classes are out of line DPS wise, or are being negatively impacted today or in the next expansion. You simply want them to behave a certain way that they are not and phrasing it as a "Fact" that they should.</blockquote> not really sure what "the quote game" is.. i just quote so it's easy to see what i'm responding to. yes yes so how does the saying go about half truths? clearly you're not understanding why i made this post and i guess time will tell. not really sure how else i can make you understand that ALL classes will have 100% crit for EVERYTHING. this will mean that preds/rogues will miss out on potential dmg since they will have zero use for spell crit. poison is part of those classes profession, thus should not have been affected by said adjustment. i'm sick and tired of devs breaking one thing to fix another.

Davngr1

10-20-2009, 06:04 PM

<cite>Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sure it does. The poison is made my Alchemists.....not Scouts. So why should the Scouts base damage mods affect the damage of the poisons?</blockquote> so how does a proc made by alchys that can only be used by 4 profession in anyway make it an item/gear proc? it's not, it's of its own brand and that in it self makes it a professional spell NOT a generic gear/item proc.</blockquote>It is a temporary item proc that is in effect "added" to the weapon. But it is still an item proc not a spell.</blockquote> it's a professional ablity, that's why only my rogue and pred can use it. proc's where not adjusted, only non-professional item/gear proc's where adjusted, poison is not a generic proc ANY class can equip it's dedicated to 4 professions.

Nevao

10-20-2009, 06:58 PM

You don't cast a poison in a fight to do damage, you cast them on your weapon and they then "proc" from the weapon damage. If you wanted to you could compare them to the offensive stance (I'm surprised you did not) but at the same time the offensive stance is in your knowlegde book and doesn't run out (again indicative of it not being a spell) requiring you to go buy more.And no, they are not unique to a class. To your point 4 classes can use them. By definition that is not unique. Poisons are like weapon adornments that apply a proc.And you're right I'm not sure why you made the post. It's full of opinion touted as "fact". You're making claims that we've been wronged (which you have not attempted to back up with any kind of numerical evidence) and making claims that we're going to be wronged more (which you have no way of knowing since none of us know what changes are in the pipe yet). I'm assuming you think that those problems would be fixed if they just crit poison's which to be honest if you believe that it's a bit naive. Scout DPS is dependent on much more than poisons and there are other issues in this expansion that much more problematic to scout DPS such as melee/ranged hit rates against orange conned mobs vs spell/combat art hit rates. It still appears you are saying GIVE US MORE DPS, but you're not backing up how we're out of line with other classes, or how we lost DPS after this change, just that you don't think a mechanic is right. Class balance can't be done against "I don't like how this one piece works, make it this way" and changing this would affect class balance. If you want it changed by the devs, or at least convince others that you are right you're going to need at least a semblance of supporting data that things are significantly out of whack and that this is the reason they are.(on a side note I have no idea what the saying about half-truths are, but I do see how it's possible to take a single sentance out of context and use it prove your point)

Davngr1

10-21-2009, 03:56 AM

<cite>Nevao wrote:</cite><blockquote>You don't cast a poison in a fight to do damage, you cast them on your weapon and they then "proc" from the weapon damage. If you wanted to you could compare them to the offensive stance (I'm surprised you did not) but at the same time the offensive stance is in your knowlegde book and doesn't run out (again indicative of it not being a spell) requiring you to go buy more.And no, they are not unique to a class. To your point 4 classes can use them. By definition that is not unique. Poisons are like weapon adornments that apply a proc.And you're right I'm not sure why you made the post. It's full of opinion touted as "fact". You're making claims that we've been wronged (which you have not attempted to back up with any kind of numerical evidence) and making claims that we're going to be wronged more (which you have no way of knowing since none of us know what changes are in the pipe yet). I'm assuming you think that those problems would be fixed if they just crit poison's which to be honest if you believe that it's a bit naive. Scout DPS is dependent on much more than poisons and there are other issues in this expansion that much more problematic to scout DPS such as melee/ranged hit rates against orange conned mobs vs spell/combat art hit rates. It still appears you are saying GIVE US MORE DPS, but you're not backing up how we're out of line with other classes, or how we lost DPS after this change, just that you don't think a mechanic is right. Class balance can't be done against "I don't like how this one piece works, make it this way" and changing this would affect class balance. If you want it changed by the devs, or at least convince others that you are right you're going to need at least a semblance of supporting data that things are significantly out of whack and that this is the reason they are.(on a side note I have no idea what the saying about half-truths are, but I do see how it's possible to take a single sentance out of context and use it prove your point)</blockquote>lol.. ok man if you must insist on "not understanding" let me make it really clear for you. 1. next expansion all classes will recive 100% crit everything. that will mean that procs that "can crit" will crit 100% of the time. 2. poison is NOTHING like an item/gear proc(since they have been part of the rogue/pred class since day one) thus poison should not have been adjusted like item/gear procs. you can try to reason in circles but the fact is that poison is a professional ability. i mean seriously.. preds/rogues have AA devoted specifically to them. you see any aa out there devoted to void bane or mutagenic burst??3. this is not about "MORE DPS" this is about a "MISTAKE" made my devs by classifying poison as a generic proc when in fact it's a professional ability only 4 professions can use. sure it's not a big deal but never the less it should benefit from crit and mods the same way other professional abilitys do. this is a simple fix, i guess the scout community is not intersted but at least i have made them aware of it.

Chefren

10-21-2009, 03:57 AM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote> clearly you're not understanding why i made this post and i guess time will tell. not really sure how else i can make you understand that ALL classes will have 100% crit for EVERYTHING. this will mean that preds/rogues will miss out on potential dmg since they will have zero use for spell crit.</blockquote>Didn't you hear they are making all the old gear degrade when you level so that they can design new gear that will be "better" at level 90 without everyone capping everything? Plus crit will work differently in general as well.

Kulaf

10-21-2009, 12:42 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>1. next expansion all classes will recive 100% crit everything. that will mean that procs that "can crit" will crit 100% of the time. 2. poison is NOTHING like an item/gear proc(since they have been part of the rogue/pred class since day one) thus poison should not have been adjusted like item/gear procs. you can try to reason in circles but the fact is that poison is a professional ability. i mean seriously.. preds/rogues have AA devoted specifically to them. you see any aa out there devoted to void bane or mutagenic burst??3. this is not about "MORE DPS" this is about a "MISTAKE" made my devs by classifying poison as a generic proc when in fact it's a professional ability only 4 professions can use. sure it's not a big deal but never the less it should benefit from crit and mods the same way other professional abilitys do. this is a simple fix, i guess the scout community is not intersted but at least i have made them aware of it. </blockquote>1) Well I am glad your crystal ball is working....mine is in the shop getting repaired. But everything I have read indicates that you are wrong. Item degredation being introduced means all of your existing level 80 gear is going to be nearly worthless at level 90 meaning you will have to re-gear and we have NO CLUE what that gear will or will not have for crit mods.2) As I recall poisons weren't even in the game at launch.......as memory serves. They had to add it in at a later patch and it is still an Alchemist that makes them. You might actually have a point if the classes could make their own poisons....but that can't. The AA's increase the trigger counts on the poisons which demonstrates their skill at not using up all of the poisons on their weapons with one strike.3) Aeralik made this change. He is the mechanics Dev. He also plays an Assassin as his main character. This was NOT a "mistake". And you also got compensated for the change: (from the Producer's Letter)"Predators will see a change to Toxic Expertise, The spell will now improve the base damage of poisons. We're also making adjustments to the Death Mark and Inspired Daring spell lines so that they trigger melee attacks instead of spell based attacks. This is to refocus the combat art back to improved poison damage, rather than the spell crit damage it has been doing."So honestly.......what's the problem?

Nevao

10-21-2009, 01:56 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>lol.. ok man if you must insist on "not understanding" let me make it really clear for you. 1. next expansion all classes will recive 100% crit everything. that will mean that procs that "can crit" will crit 100% of the time. 2. poison is NOTHING like an item/gear proc(since they have been part of the rogue/pred class since day one) thus poison should not have been adjusted like item/gear procs. you can try to reason in circles but the fact is that poison is a professional ability. i mean seriously.. preds/rogues have AA devoted specifically to them. you see any aa out there devoted to void bane or mutagenic burst??3. this is not about "MORE DPS" this is about a "MISTAKE" made my devs by classifying poison as a generic proc when in fact it's a professional ability only 4 professions can use. sure it's not a big deal but never the less it should benefit from crit and mods the same way other professional abilitys do. this is a simple fix, i guess the scout community is not intersted but at least i have made them aware of it.</blockquote><ol><li>Well if you're not going to provide parses or math would you at least provide your references for being able to say that we will be at 100% Crit for all crit types. Then once we've established that we can start working on the math to show that poisons not critting are going to put us at a disadvantage.</li><li>Not specific procs but there are are AA's that increase proc rates for items. Does that mean item procs count as profession spells for Templars? My guild leader who's a Templar would LOVE that.</li><li>Ok, even if this is not a cry for more DPS they already compensated for the fact that they don't crit anymore. So your requested change would give us by definition more DPS? And we're back to class balance issues again. That's a much larger can of worms to play with and your blithely leading us down the path. But if you really do think this is a mistake what are you willing to give up to offset DPS gain from critting poisons?</li></ol>As for a "simple fix" please don't utter those words if you don't actually have access to the code, the design documents and a knowledge of how to change it. As someone who works on a development team (completetly unrelated) I've seen that phrase thrown out far too many times by peole who have no idea what they are talking about and they are almost always wrong.

Davngr1

10-21-2009, 04:33 PM

<cite>Einina@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote> clearly you're not understanding why i made this post and i guess time will tell. not really sure how else i can make you understand that ALL classes will have 100% crit for EVERYTHING. this will mean that preds/rogues will miss out on potential dmg since they will have zero use for spell crit.</blockquote>Didn't you hear they are making all the old gear degrade when you level so that they can design new gear that will be "better" at level 90 without everyone capping everything? Plus crit will work differently in general as well.</blockquote> what's your point? old degrades sure but you really think all characters wont be at 100% crit anymore? so i will level to 90 to be less powerfull then i am now? lol btw yes crit will work differently but it will still offer extra dmg, said dmg will depend on class.

Davngr1

10-21-2009, 04:41 PM

<cite>Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>1. next expansion all classes will recive 100% crit everything. that will mean that procs that "can crit" will crit 100% of the time. 2. poison is NOTHING like an item/gear proc(since they have been part of the rogue/pred class since day one) thus poison should not have been adjusted like item/gear procs. you can try to reason in circles but the fact is that poison is a professional ability. i mean seriously.. preds/rogues have AA devoted specifically to them. you see any aa out there devoted to void bane or mutagenic burst??3. this is not about "MORE DPS" this is about a "MISTAKE" made my devs by classifying poison as a generic proc when in fact it's a professional ability only 4 professions can use. sure it's not a big deal but never the less it should benefit from crit and mods the same way other professional abilitys do. this is a simple fix, i guess the scout community is not intersted but at least i have made them aware of it. </blockquote>1) Well I am glad your crystal ball is working....mine is in the shop getting repaired. But everything I have read indicates that you are wrong. Item degredation being introduced means all of your existing level 80 gear is going to be nearly worthless at level 90 meaning you will have to re-gear and we have NO CLUE what that gear will or will not have for crit mods.2) As I recall poisons weren't even in the game at launch.......as memory serves. They had to add it in at a later patch and it is still an Alchemist that makes them. You might actually have a point if the classes could make their own poisons....but that can't. The AA's increase the trigger counts on the poisons which demonstrates their skill at not using up all of the poisons on their weapons with one strike.3) Aeralik made this change. He is the mechanics Dev. He also plays an Assassin as his main character. This was NOT a "mistake". And you also got compensated for the change: (from the Producer's Letter)"Predators will see a change to Toxic Expertise, The spell will now improve the base damage of poisons. We're also making adjustments to the Death Mark and Inspired Daring spell lines so that they trigger melee attacks instead of spell based attacks. This is to refocus the combat art back to improved poison damage, rather than the spell crit damage it has been doing."So honestly.......what's the problem?</blockquote> well then.. read up on current plans for the future expansion. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Davngr1

10-21-2009, 04:51 PM

<cite>Nevao wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite> </cite><ol><li>Well if you're not going to provide parses or math would you at least provide your references for being able to say that we will be at 100% Crit for all crit types. Then once we've established that we can start working on the math to show that poisons not critting are going to put us at a disadvantage.</li><li>Not specific procs but there are are AA's that increase proc rates for items. Does that mean item procs count as profession spells for Templars? My guild leader who's a Templar would LOVE that.</li><li>Ok, even if this is not a cry for more DPS they already compensated for the fact that they don't crit anymore. So your requested change would give us by definition more DPS? And we're back to class balance issues again. That's a much larger can of worms to play with and your blithely leading us down the path. But if you really do think this is a mistake what are you willing to give up to offset DPS gain from critting poisons?</li></ol>As for a "simple fix" please don't utter those words if you don't actually have access to the code, the design documents and a knowledge of how to change it. As someone who works on a development team (completetly unrelated) I've seen that phrase thrown out far too many times by peole who have no idea what they are talking about and they are almost always wrong.</blockquote>1. how hard is the math? it's 30% more dmg for a crit, i was under the impression that anyone posting would know such basic mechanics. 2. templar/dirge/mystic "proc chance AA" don't benefit one exact proc as pred/rogue aa do. there is no logic behind that statement, unlike my statement that clearly shows that poison dmg is part of the rogue/pred profession. 3. clearly i have "lost" you again.. this change would not net pred/rogue any more dps now, since neither class has any where near 100% crit. the gain would be seen come next expansion when 100% crit or close to that will be the norm for lvl 90 capped characters. it's a simple fix... procs that crit and procs that do crit are all ready in game. all you have to do is unregulate poison.

Nevao

10-21-2009, 06:30 PM

Ok, let's try this in simple words and not bring in other points. What post do you have that shows we will be at 100% Crit next expansion. You are stating this as fact. Prove it. Since that seem to be part of your justification let's get that out of the way before we "discuss" anything else.

Prestissimo

10-23-2009, 07:35 AM

Is the poison an item or piece of gear? Since it is a stackable item that you cast upon yourself which then maintains, that translates into it being an item. Therefore it's an item/gear type proc and falls under the changes to items and gear procs. Plain and simple.My troub's harmonization is broken, the bards can't use poisons unlike all the other scouts, my paladin gains 3% hate transfer he wouldn't have had from amends in normal groups and gains nothing in raids since he's capped on transfer before amends is even cast, my TSO T4 5 piece bonus on my paladin does nothing and with the change to procs it completely negates the 5 piece bonus on my troub's set, my wizzy's weapon's auto attack doesn't get used because I get killed by reposte thanks to no mitigation or decent health on my gear nor does it get boosted by my crit chance and looking at how much damage your auto attack can do you must obviously see why that hinders my wizzies potential dps output (in which case I'd like to either have a way to keep casting without power like scouts can auto attack, or boost mage's dps to compensate), my warden's heals don't do anything unless there is health missing from someone's health pool and is thus completely wasted, and I could go on with things such as the brawler's procs having been broken for longer than the predators have enjoyed the crit poison benefits or the summoners and their multitude of issues. The point being it's all a matter of perspective and seeing how little predators/rogues are losing I honestly can't comprehend why your knickers are so bunched up over it. Try really losing something because seriously the whole sky is falling garbage just makes your thread and fellow scouts look bad by association.Your perspective is that you want the crits to stay the way they were because they had potential to be abused and exploited, or you just don't like getting nerfed even when it shouldn't affect you hardly at all nevermind this change should help make scouts even better than mages since the scouts aren't losing hardly anything in comparison, make your itemization simpler and more functional, and as an added bonus it will end up slightly nerfing mage's dps potential which results in making predators and rogues look better. There are alot of classes that have it MUCH worse and some are losing a lot more such as the troub's losing an entire piece of their top tier armor's set bonus which is coincidentally able to cause poisons to proc more frequently.On another note, they're currently on a path to consolidate crits which will almost garunteed bork crits or severely deminish the benefits of which you would see especially on something like poisons in which case you'd be better off NOT having poisons follow the current system and rather just simply take the changes they're making since it will make you impervious to all of that drama that will undoubtably ensue and which will cripple a respectably significant portion of mage dps.

Davngr1

10-24-2009, 06:29 AM

<cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is the poison an item or piece of gear? Since it is a stackable item that you cast upon yourself which then maintains, that translates into it being an item. Therefore it's an item/gear type proc and falls under the changes to items and gear procs. Plain and simple.My troub's harmonization is broken, the bards can't use poisons unlike all the other scouts, my paladin gains 3% hate transfer he wouldn't have had from amends in normal groups and gains nothing in raids since he's capped on transfer before amends is even cast, my TSO T4 5 piece bonus on my paladin does nothing and with the change to procs it completely negates the 5 piece bonus on my troub's set, my wizzy's weapon's auto attack doesn't get used because I get killed by reposte thanks to no mitigation or decent health on my gear nor does it get boosted by my crit chance and looking at how much damage your auto attack can do you must obviously see why that hinders my wizzies potential dps output (in which case I'd like to either have a way to keep casting without power like scouts can auto attack, or boost mage's dps to compensate), my warden's heals don't do anything unless there is health missing from someone's health pool and is thus completely wasted, and I could go on with things such as the brawler's procs having been broken for longer than the predators have enjoyed the crit poison benefits or the summoners and their multitude of issues. The point being it's all a matter of perspective and seeing how little predators/rogues are losing I honestly can't comprehend why your knickers are so bunched up over it. Try really losing something because seriously the whole sky is falling garbage just makes your thread and fellow scouts look bad by association.Your perspective is that you want the crits to stay the way they were because they had potential to be abused and exploited, or you just don't like getting nerfed even when it shouldn't affect you hardly at all nevermind this change should help make scouts even better than mages since the scouts aren't losing hardly anything in comparison, make your itemization simpler and more functional, and as an added bonus it will end up slightly nerfing mage's dps potential which results in making predators and rogues look better. There are alot of classes that have it MUCH worse and some are losing a lot more such as the troub's losing an entire piece of their top tier armor's set bonus which is coincidentally able to cause poisons to proc more frequently.On another note, they're currently on a path to consolidate crits which will almost garunteed bork crits or severely deminish the benefits of which you would see especially on something like poisons in which case you'd be better off NOT having poisons follow the current system and rather just simply take the changes they're making since it will make you impervious to all of that drama that will undoubtably ensue and which will cripple a respectably significant portion of mage dps.</blockquote> first off.. im gonna give you some credit for at least knowing about what im posting in regards to, before posting against it. but.... poison is not an item, it's a temporary spell/buff that shows on BOTH maintained AND normal buff window ( unlike item most item/gear buffs ) that can only be used by 4 professions. said 4 professions are dps professions, the main reason that item/gear buffs where adjusted is because there where non-dps classes ( healers/tanks/whatever ) padding their dmg with said procs. you're just WRONG about bard proc bonus being negated or rendered useless by these changes or the palading 5 set bonus.. is not the paladin 5 set bonus just like every other tanks? +500 hp? i mean unless i misunderstood what you said and if i did and you care to explain, i would like to know about this *bug* or whatever it is you are experiencing. now ( today in game )... mages are not behind scout in dmg potential. both are pretty equal and if anything when it comes to high end encounters ( you know the ones that drop the good gear ), scouts fall short unless they have a VERY good group and gear/skill. the stuns/detrimentals/aoe's beat the snot out of melee dps. i play mages and am rather exited about changes coming up for the class. having 100% melee will give a small boost to the dmg all ready being done by all mages that know, it's important to melee a mob to squeeze every bit of dmg and TBH i feel that dev's should develop some caster range items with caster stats to deal out some range dmg while casting. i mean casters all ready have a dead range ammo slot, my casters currently have a +1 STR arrow from DFC. granted on some mobs you would not want to, even if mages had substantial auto attack dmg because of the reason give earlier. btw.. you use the word exploit.. buy your own reasoning, i guess a paladin is exploiting because he has close to 100% melee/spell/heal crit? a chanter with STR line is exploiting too? really?

Kulaf

10-24-2009, 02:18 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>first off.. im gonna give you some credit for at least knowing about what im posting in regards to, before posting against it. but.... poison is not an item, it's a temporary spell/buff that shows on BOTH maintained AND normal buff window ( unlike item most item/gear buffs ) that can only be used by 4 professions. said 4 professions are dps professions, the main reason that item/gear buffs where adjusted is because there where non-dps classes ( healers/tanks/whatever ) padding their dmg with said procs. you're just WRONG about bard proc bonus being negated or rendered useless by these changes or the palading 5 set bonus.. is not the paladin 5 set bonus just like every other tanks? +500 hp? i mean unless i misunderstood what you said and if i did and you care to explain, i would like to know about this *bug* or whatever it is you are experiencing. now ( today in game )... mages are not behind scout in dmg potential. both are pretty equal and if anything when it comes to high end encounters ( you know the ones that drop the good gear ), scouts fall short unless they have a VERY good group and gear/skill. the stuns/detrimentals/aoe's beat the snot out of melee dps. i play mages and am rather exited about changes coming up for the class. having 100% melee will give a small boost to the dmg all ready being done by all mages that know, it's important to melee a mob to squeeze every bit of dmg and TBH i feel that dev's should develop some caster range items with caster stats to deal out some range dmg while casting. i mean casters all ready have a dead range ammo slot, my casters currently have a +1 STR arrow from DFC. granted on some mobs you would not want to, even if mages had substantial auto attack dmg because of the reason give earlier. btw.. you use the word exploit.. buy your own reasoning, i guess a paladin is exploiting because he has close to 100% melee/spell/heal crit? a chanter with STR line is exploiting too? really? </blockquote>First off in your OP you said you welcome input and views from people, so don't get snippy just because we share a different opinion by implying we don't understand the issue.Poison is an item. I see it in my Rangers inventory. When I "consume" it it goes in the maintained window because it has a number of applications that the game needs to keep track of, and to let the player know that it is actually in use. I honestly wish poisons had never been put in the game just to add some extra damage to four classes. If you wanted to get technical none of the "good" classes should even be using poisons and in most games they are only used by "evil" people.He also is not WRONG about the Troub set bonus. It adds an effect to Perfection of the Maestro that increases the proc trigger for items by 33%. When the change went in that made certain procs not able to be modified except by direct means that nerfed the effect of the set bonus. I personally don't think it is a big deal but some folks might. I cannot speak to the Paladin effects as I don't play a Paladin.As I said earlier, this change was made by the mechanics Dev who plays an Assassin. It was not a mistake, and it likely will NEVER change. So I am just going to move along with the understanding that I am never going to seemingly be able to convince you of that single immutable fact.Out.

Davngr1

10-24-2009, 11:39 PM

<cite>Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>1. First off in your OP you said you welcome input and views from people, so don't get snippy just because we share a different opinion by implying we don't understand the issue.2. Poison is an item. I see it in my Rangers inventory. When I "consume" it it goes in the maintained window because it has a number of applications that the game needs to keep track of, and to let the player know that it is actually in use. I honestly wish poisons had never been put in the game just to add some extra damage to four classes. If you wanted to get technical none of the "good" classes should even be using poisons and in most games they are only used by "evil" people.3. He also is not WRONG about the Troub set bonus. It adds an effect to Perfection of the Maestro that increases the proc trigger for items by 33%. When the change went in that made certain procs not able to be modified except by direct means that nerfed the effect of the set bonus. I personally don't think it is a big deal but some folks might. I cannot speak to the Paladin effects as I don't play a Paladin.4. As I said earlier, this change was made by the mechanics Dev who plays an Assassin. It was not a mistake, and it likely will NEVER change. So I am just going to move along with the understanding that I am never going to seemingly be able to convince you of that single immutable fact.Out.</blockquote>1. my exact statement was: " i welcome and(any) input or views on the matter, thanks." now you must understand that if you and the other 2 posters had "asked" about what you did not understand from OP, for one this would have been a different exchange but instead you (and others) decided to tell me, im "wrong" and write it off as nonsensical jiber jaber.. i don't fee i was "snippy" what so ever, instead my where very informative, you're welcome. 2. this is not about lore, this is about poison being part of pred/rogue profession. this is not some generic gear proc you can loot in an instance/raid. this is highly specialized ability designed just for 4 classes. 3. again BOTH of you need to get you FACTs straight before you post WRONG information. the adjustments did nothing to procs other then take their ability to crit and modified by spell dmg, any proc that is not affected by the bard gear bonus NEVER WAS. 4. see, i would rather keep the personal aspects about this argument out. if we start bringing into the discussion that the dev plays an assassin they you would have to prove that he still plays one and well... see that's personal and the dev's business. i think i'm gonna have to take the high road here and avoid your entire comment about that since it would be in bad taste. on the other hand i can comment about your "immutable fact". it's called feed back, it's called participation, im trying to do my part to point out possible issues that take fun out of a class that i like playing. i already stated earlier that, clearly there isn't any interest in this subject now but it maybe become an issue with future planned changes and im looking ahead. ps. this is a damage source all pred/rogue can benefit from, granted the high end assassin with endless "high procs" might have needs an adjustment to said "high end" damage sources BUT the casual pred/rouge NEEDS that class professional ability to stay competitive. indeed adjusting this source of damage works against balance in it's totality.

Nevao

10-25-2009, 12:42 AM

<cite>Nevao wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, let's try this in simple words and not bring in other points. What post do you have that shows we will be at 100% Crit next expansion. You are stating this as fact. Prove it. Since that seem to be part of your justification let's get that out of the way before we "discuss" anything else.</blockquote>/sigh no response to this one yet. Oh well.

Prestissimo

10-25-2009, 03:54 AM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><snip> poison is not an item, it's a temporary spell/buff that shows on BOTH maintained AND normal buff window ( unlike item most item/gear buffs ) that can only be used by 4 professions. said 4 professions are dps professions, the main reason that item/gear buffs where adjusted is because there where non-dps classes ( healers/tanks/whatever ) padding their dmg with said procs. you're just WRONG about bard proc bonus being negated or rendered useless by these changes or the palading 5 set bonus.. is not the paladin 5 set bonus just like every other tanks? +500 hp? i mean unless i misunderstood what you said and if i did and you care to explain, i would like to know about this *bug* or whatever it is you are experiencing. now ( today in game )... mages are not behind scout in dmg potential. both are pretty equal and if anything when it comes to high end encounters ( you know the ones that drop the good gear ), scouts fall short unless they have a VERY good group and gear/skill. the stuns/detrimentals/aoe's beat the snot out of melee dps. i play mages and am rather exited about changes coming up for the class. having 100% melee will give a small boost to the dmg all ready being done by all mages that know, it's important to melee a mob to squeeze every bit of dmg and TBH i feel that dev's should develop some caster range items with caster stats to deal out some range dmg while casting. i mean casters all ready have a dead range ammo slot, my casters currently have a +1 STR arrow from DFC. granted on some mobs you would not want to, even if mages had substantial auto attack dmg because of the reason give earlier. btw.. you use the word exploit.. buy your own reasoning, i guess a paladin is exploiting because he has close to 100% melee/spell/heal crit? a chanter with STR line is exploiting too? really?</blockquote>Whoops, meant the 4 piece. The paladin 4 piece set bonus is a reduction to our 12 second death "save" stiffle (durring which we are left at low health without the capability of using our heals that we were using prior to hitting red which translates into minus that much more from our incoming heals and you are garunteed death and very very poor chance of surviving especially compared to coagulate and bloodletter from a class that is respectively equivilant in required healing). Instead of being 12 seconds of stiffled suckiness, it's only 6 seconds of stiffled suckiness. Awesome 4 piece set bonus, especially considering we can just cancel divine favor and avoid the stiffle (not like any other tanks have to put up with that bs, so if theres a work around, why should we put up with it?)Paladins do not get a 100% of all crits. Please, oh please, prove how any paladin can get that because they cannot and I would LOVE to see you try to prove even that they can get 100% melee crit and heal crit nevermind the double attack that we need badly or the other things we need. The crit changes will have more to them than just making all crits the same stat which as far as I currently know it includes effectiveness variations to each of the crit functions which will slaughter paladins effectiveness more so than anyone else (since SKs gain life tap crits off of damage spell crit and would therefore be affected the same % where as paladins need BOTH heal crit and damage spell crit to do what sks can with just spell crit and other fighters don't care about spell or heal crits and since crusaders are inherrently half casters, half melee I suspect spell damage crit wont be torpedoed that hard but knowing the track record of anti-paladin behavior exhibited by the devs I would bet on paladins being nerf batted into oblivion by this change. If they aren't, it would be one of the first times since GU13 they didn't get slapped silly with a nerf).As for mage dps, what ever happened to heavy power draining fights, or fights with long range aoes because mages are quite squishy and take dirt naps when the mob farts where as a scout has a higher probability of living through it (if not by that great of a chance). Mages get additional damage from procs which have had their crits removed, scouts use poisons for additional damage in the same manner and practice so I do not see how nerfing poison procs to be the same as all other procs is out of line. By doing what mages do, they proc damage procs off of spell casts. By doing what they do, scouts proc their poisons off of attacks. Scouts have a variety of poisons just as mages have a variety of procs. Poisons cost extra to use where as mage procs don't run out, but scouts are much less bound by power restrictions than mages and have options in terms of effective poisons where as mages proc choices are pretty much damage or a farse proc.To give you an idea of what that troub proc nerf did, my paladin will proc his damage on attack proc about 16 times a minute with potm's bonus up for only ~30 seconds and it also allowed me to spam everything quickly to proc more procs in a shorter time thanks to the higher % to proc. Without it about 6-8 times and my casting order stayed in it's "steady" cycle because there was no reason to try to proc things more. (Don't make me go get the parse logs, they're 2 gb and thats only this years logs.)This variation in proc rate had to do with saving my fast casting abilities and the fact my weapon is 6 seconds which the longer delay increases the chance of a proc when I actually do hit after all the math is said and done which allows me to artificially increase my average proc rate. That 33% extra proc chance may not seem like a lot, but imagine an entire high end raid force with lots of procs going off getting an extra 33% to all proc chances alike across the entire raid for ~30 seconds. Thats not something to scoff at, and it DID affect alot of procs before they made procs unaffected by other procs, otherwise there would be very few bards that dropped their T4 5+ piece bonuses in favor of getting the additional spell and ca damage proc from 3 pieces.

Davngr1

10-25-2009, 05:20 AM

<cite>Nevao wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nevao wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, let's try this in simple words and not bring in other points. What post do you have that shows we will be at 100% Crit next expansion. You are stating this as fact. Prove it. Since that seem to be part of your justification let's get that out of the way before we "discuss" anything else.</blockquote>/sigh no response to this one yet. Oh well.</blockquote>look up fan fair post on the interwebz man. i'm here discuss future impact to scouts that use poison not tell nevao about up and coming content. you're a smart dude, i knowz you can do eeeet!

Davngr1

10-25-2009, 05:47 AM

<cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Whoops, meant the 4 piece. The paladin 4 piece set bonus is a reduction to our 12 second death "save" stiffle (durring which we are left at low health without the capability of using our heals that we were using prior to hitting red which translates into minus that much more from our incoming heals and you are garunteed death and very very poor chance of surviving especially compared to coagulate and bloodletter from a class that is respectively equivilant in required healing). Instead of being 12 seconds of stiffled suckiness, it's only 6 seconds of stiffled suckiness. Awesome 4 piece set bonus, especially considering we can just cancel divine favor and avoid the stiffle (not like any other tanks have to put up with that bs, so if theres a work around, why should we put up with it?) this has nothing to do with the proc changes man. sorry pally death save sucks?Paladins do not get a 100% of all crits. Please, oh please, prove how any paladin can get that because they cannot and I would LOVE to see you try to prove even that they can get 100% melee crit and heal crit nevermind the double attack that we need badly or the other things we need. The crit changes will have more to them than just making all crits the same stat which as far as I currently know it includes effectiveness variations to each of the crit functions which will slaughter paladins effectiveness more so than anyone else (since SKs gain life tap crits off of damage spell crit and would therefore be affected the same % where as paladins need BOTH heal crit and damage spell crit to do what sks can with just spell crit and other fighters don't care about spell or heal crits and since crusaders are inherrently half casters, half melee I suspect spell damage crit wont be torpedoed that hard but knowing the track record of anti-paladin behavior exhibited by the devs I would bet on paladins being nerf batted into oblivion by this change. If they aren't, it would be one of the first times since GU13 they didn't get slapped silly with a nerf). pretty sure i said "close to" and it's not so hard to bring all your crits up quite high in raid, either way that is not an exploit. so how would preds/rogues being able to use their 100% crit an exploit? it's not. also you're making alot of assumptions about future changes. granted i am too, since the changes have not happend but my assumptions are direct and clear "this will happen because 100% crit" your assumptions are " the 100% crit will not work and my class will be hurt and everyone exept rogue/pred will be hurt, so rogue/pred don't have the right" see? fact is pred/rogue have had poison since the start and their dmg depends on it. sure the aa changes are ok for now but when other classes start making better use of 100% crit the issues will ariase.As for mage dps, what ever happened to heavy power draining fights, or fights with long range aoes because mages are quite squishy and take dirt naps when the mob farts where as a scout has a higher probability of living through it (if not by that great of a chance). Mages get additional damage from procs which have had their crits removed, scouts use poisons for additional damage in the same manner and practice so I do not see how nerfing poison procs to be the same as all other procs is out of line. By doing what mages do, they proc damage procs off of spell casts. By doing what they do, scouts proc their poisons off of attacks. Scouts have a variety of poisons just as mages have a variety of procs. Poisons cost extra to use where as mage procs don't run out, but scouts are much less bound by power restrictions than mages and have options in terms of effective poisons where as mages proc choices are pretty much damage or a farse proc. i have raided scouts and mages and let me tell you what both die if they take agro or if a big aoe hits, mater of fact mages with stone sking gear have better survivabiilty then dps spec rogue/pred. the picture you're painting is simply not true, when i raid my scouts i dont engage the mob and experiance an "easy mode" fight just like mages scout cary their down falls. poison is part of the 4 professions i have mentioned and should benefit from professional percs. the high end scout won't care about 30% more dmg to their poison but the casual scout needs every little bit of dmg and taking that dmg is stealing fun from the classs and creating inbalance. this is wrong! proc chance was not adjusted only prco criticals and base spell mods where adjusted.To give you an idea of what that troub proc nerf did, my paladin will proc his damage on attack proc about 16 times a minute with potm's bonus up for only ~30 seconds and it also allowed me to spam everything quickly to proc more procs in a shorter time thanks to the higher % to proc. Without it about 6-8 times and my casting order stayed in it's "steady" cycle because there was no reason to try to proc things more. (Don't make me go get the parse logs, they're 2 gb and thats only this years logs.)This variation in proc rate had to do with saving my fast casting abilities and the fact my weapon is 6 seconds which the longer delay increases the chance of a proc when I actually do hit after all the math is said and done which allows me to artificially increase my average proc rate. That 33% extra proc chance may not seem like a lot, but imagine an entire high end raid force with lots of procs going off getting an extra 33% to all proc chances alike across the entire raid for ~30 seconds. Thats not something to scoff at, and it DID affect alot of procs before they made procs unaffected by other procs, otherwise there would be very few bards that dropped their T4 5+ piece bonuses in favor of getting the additional spell and ca damage proc from 3 pieces.</blockquote>

Nevao

10-25-2009, 08:37 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nevao wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nevao wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, let's try this in simple words and not bring in other points. What post do you have that shows we will be at 100% Crit next expansion. You are stating this as fact. Prove it. Since that seem to be part of your justification let's get that out of the way before we "discuss" anything else.</blockquote>/sigh no response to this one yet. Oh well.</blockquote>look up fan fair post on the interwebz man. i'm here discuss future impact to scouts that use poison not tell nevao about up and coming content. you're a smart dude, i knowz you can do eeeet!</blockquote>Sorry but I haven't been able to find that "fact" anywhere on the internet, despite "searching the interwebz", and I'm not the first person to question you "knowledge" on this claim. You are either mistaken or making up it up. However after repeated requests to back up your "Facts" you have not which leads me to believe that you are not interested in discussions, you're not interested in differening views. Instead you just seem to want us to rubber stamp your OPINIONS. That said there's not point in continuing on as you will most like just keep spouting more items that you refuse to back up and think that that constitutes a valid argument. Good luck with your endever, though I personally feel you're far past left field on this one.

Davngr1

10-25-2009, 08:51 PM

<cite>Nevao wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry but I haven't been able to find that "fact" anywhere on the internet, despite "searching the interwebz", and I'm not the first person to question you "knowledge" on this claim. You are either mistaken or making up it up. However after repeated requests to back up your "Facts" you have not which leads me to believe that you are not interested in discussions, you're not interested in differening views. Instead you just seem to want us to rubber stamp your OPINIONS. That said there's not point in continuing on as you will most like just keep spouting more items that you refuse to back up and think that that constitutes a valid argument. Good luck with your endever, though I personally feel you're far past left field on this one.</blockquote> i apologice if i came off as rude, now i understand the tone of your post since you had no idea about future changes. http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=460198 thre you go man.. that shows a small tid bit into future mechanics in game. granted nothing is solid but at least you will understand the general dirrection and why i made this post. perhaps this post was a tad bit premature but.. i dumb like that sometimes :