Brawler AA's

[Kaliguwra]

<p>Please fix Crane Twirl. It proc hardly crits and appears to be using SPELL CRIT. Its a melee ability. If Cacophony of Blades can crit off of melee crit, then this ability should too.</p>

[Aule]

They don't care. They've been notified about this over and over again and the best response anybody's gotten is "wait until the expansion". Unfortunately, you're not an Assassin, you don't get fixed until the expansion, maybe.

[Dechau]

<p>I'm guessing with the changes to crit it will be changed, and therefor they have it way down theyr Priority list..</p><p>Sucks to be us with that, but I guess not all classes can have a wonder dev like assassins do..</p>

[Kaliguwra]

<p>Moved thread and no answer.</p>

[Aull]

<p>Not that I look down on brawlers but honestly I seen along time ago that brawlers were not going to be a wanted tank in this expansion. Again not that brawlers suck but to me they are just less effective running aoe instances. I retired my bruiser for the most part and rolled a swashbuckler. It was the best move I have made.</p><p>I enjoyed my bruiser but the frustrations of rejections as a group tank in tso has just wore me to thin to continue. I am not saying that every brawler needs to ditch their passion for the the class but for me the rewards have been far greater rolling a desirable class than waiting for any type appeal my bruiser could have had six months ago.</p>

[Kaliguwra]

<p>Go post that rubbish elsewhere. This isn't about a brawler's tanking ability, its about an ability that was never moved in the right direction when everything else was.</p>

[Aule]

He happens to be correct though. Now I do happen to tank everything instance-wise with my bruiser, but then I generally get to pick my group too. SOE made the choice that brawlers would not be desired for raiding or grouping with. SOE also made the decision to do nothing about it. The dev team can't even claim to be unaware of the problems, as I've pm'd Aerilak about them and received replies. The bottom line is they just don't care. (But we all know that if this was an assassin issue it would have been fixed already, because their issues were taken care of immediately.)

[Dechau]

<p>Lets try to keep focus here peeps..</p><p>This is not a -Brawlers can't tank- tread, we've already had plenty of those, and they all failed since we have CLEARLY seen that Bruiser can tank ANYTHING in the game.. "Youtube is your friend here"</p><p>This is about fixing things that are obvious wrong, Brawlers should really not have to get spell crit to max their dps, lets leave that to the casters instead..</p><p>From start, all Brawler dps enhancement should be focused on DPS mod, MC and DA..</p><p>Sure it will be fixed in the next X-pack, but why should we wait 3-4 MONTHS for something that should already work now ?</p><p>With all those PM's to Aerilak, they SHOULD be aware of the problem, and with us paying the bill monthly they should also fix it..</p>

[Kaliguwra]

<p>Bump. Again. For. Great. Justice!</p>

[jrolla777]

<p><cite>Dechau wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sure it will be fixed in the next X-pack, but why should we wait 3-4 MONTHS for something that should already work now?</p></blockquote><p>why? because it's not worth the dev's time to fix it. just like our avatar bp had less crit mit than others' bps. it was /bugged and posted about, but since they were going to change avatar items in 5 months, they told us to suck it up. Pred's spell crit aa line was changed specifically for that update. We were not. riddle me that?</p>

[Aeralik]

<p><cite>Mancy@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Dechau wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sure it will be fixed in the next X-pack, but why should we wait 3-4 MONTHS for something that should already work now?</p></blockquote><p>why? because it's not worth the dev's time to fix it. just like our avatar bp had less crit mit than others' bps. it was /bugged and posted about, but since they were going to change avatar items in 5 months, they told us to suck it up.</p></blockquote><p>It's honestly a similar situation.  We held back on the bp because there was no point to increase it one day only to have it reduced again shortly thereafter.  The same thing applies here.  I'd rather not make an adjustment in haste for the next update only to see changes with it for the next update that follows.  Brawlers are getting a lot of changes with the expansion so I would recommend a little patience until we can reveal the full scope of what is being done.</p>

[Davngr1]

<p><cite>Kaliguwra@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Please fix Crane Twirl. It proc hardly crits and appears to be using SPELL CRIT. Its a melee ability. If Cacophony of Blades can crit off of melee crit, then this ability should too.</p></blockquote><p>this does not matter at all..  tbh they can go ahead and remove crane twirl all together and i would not bat an eyelash.. </p><p>   on the other hand what my bruiser does need and needs it before the expansion is TRUE aoe attack...  make it 40% and make it happen ASAP.   it's hard tanking TSO(this expansion) with out any TRUE aoe attack and it's down right unfair that the best aoe classes in game (sk/zerk) have true aoe attack on their AA lines and brawlers don't.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kaliguwra@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Please fix Crane Twirl. It proc hardly crits and appears to be using SPELL CRIT. Its a melee ability. If Cacophony of Blades can crit off of melee crit, then this ability should too.</p></blockquote><p>this does not matter at all..  tbh they can go ahead and remove crane twirl all together and i would not bat an eyelash.. </p><p>   on the other hand what my bruiser does need and needs it before the expansion is TRUE aoe attack...  make it 40% and make it happen ASAP.   it's hard tanking TSO(this expansion) with out any TRUE aoe attack and it's down right unfair that the best aoe classes in game (sk/zerk) have true aoe attack on their AA lines and brawlers don't.</p></blockquote><p>Wow I wonder what you are doing wrong since in an AE fight cranetwirl is by far my highest damage attack besides auto attack.  If they took it away I would lose a huge amount of dps and eyelashes would be batted.</p>

[Dechau]

<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mancy@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Dechau wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sure it will be fixed in the next X-pack, but why should we wait 3-4 MONTHS for something that should already work now?</p></blockquote><p>why? because it's not worth the dev's time to fix it. just like our avatar bp had less crit mit than others' bps. it was /bugged and posted about, but since they were going to change avatar items in 5 months, they told us to suck it up.</p></blockquote><p>It's honestly a similar situation.  We held back on the bp because there was no point to increase it one day only to have it reduced again shortly thereafter.  The same thing applies here.  I'd rather not make an adjustment in haste for the next update only to see changes with it for the next update that follows.  Brawlers are getting a lot of changes with the expansion so I would recommend a little patience until we can reveal the full scope of what is being done.</p></blockquote><p>First off..</p><p>Welcome to the fighter forum, its nice to see that you know we actually exist <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Now, with your post you have with guarantee made a LOT of people wait for next update, there are some things that needs to be adressed, and with all the changes you say, I sure hope you are thinking it all through..</p><p>Sure would be nice to be able to log in and play the entire weekend and not stumble over something that should have been changed <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Anyways, thanks for answering, its nice to know that something is about to happen <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[NamaeZero]

<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It's honestly a similar situation.  We held back on the bp because there was no point to increase it one day only to have it reduced again shortly thereafter.  The same thing applies here.  I'd rather not make an adjustment in haste for the next update only to see changes with it for the next update that follows.  Brawlers are getting a lot of changes with the expansion so I would recommend a little patience until we can reveal the full scope of what is being done.</p></blockquote><p>But there is a point! If there is something obviously broken in a classes itemization it should be fixed even if a large blanket change *might* be coming soon. Those larger changes have a tendancy to get delayed, and if you fix it you can prove you're responsive to class issues on classes beyond assassins and SK's.</p><p>Look at the situation in reverse: If the mitigation had been much higher than all other classes, would it have been worth it to fix the item immediately, or wait 5 months for it to be adjusted with everything else?</p><p>I am excited to hear that Brawlers are getting a lot of changes in the new expansion. We really, really need them. Thank you for sharing that!</p>

[Kaliguwra]

<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mancy@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Dechau wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sure it will be fixed in the next X-pack, but why should we wait 3-4 MONTHS for something that should already work now?</p></blockquote><p>why? because it's not worth the dev's time to fix it. just like our avatar bp had less crit mit than others' bps. it was /bugged and posted about, but since they were going to change avatar items in 5 months, they told us to suck it up.</p></blockquote><p>It's honestly a similar situation.  We held back on the bp because there was no point to increase it one day only to have it reduced again shortly thereafter.  The same thing applies here.  I'd rather not make an adjustment in haste for the next update only to see changes with it for the next update that follows.  Brawlers are getting a lot of changes with the expansion so I would recommend a little patience until we can reveal the full scope of what is being done.</p></blockquote><p>I know I've been /bugging this since May.</p><p>So either you don't want to address a certain class community unless they actually post something and complain or you just ignore any reports about the class and what could be done better to fix it.</p><p>God forbid, if we were scouts, this would have been in a hotfix months ago. Just because the two subclasses are getting changed next xpac doesn't mean they are not entitled to a FIX that should have been fixed a long long time ago.</p>

[Aull]

<p>Thanks for the reply Aeralik.</p>

[Aule]

The whole attitude behind the argument of "we're fixing something 5-10 mo's from now so since it'll be done then there's no point in doing it now" speaks volumes as to why the player base has a disconnect from the design team. Nobody who actually played the game and experienced obvious, glaring problems that were easily fixed would come up with something like this. The evidence is there for this as it's well known that Aerilak plays an assassin and the evidence also supports that assassin class issues get addressed other than at expansion time. Why is it the brawler class related issues are simply met with /ignore? Tell you what, why don't you change assassinate to be boosted by base spell damage instead of base ca damage and then tell the assassin community that it'll be fixed in the expansion? Pick 3 or 4 other random assassin abilities to go along with it. How well do you think that would go over? It's like you guys get a flat tire on your car, and then drive around on the donut for 9 more months because the other tires will be getting replaced then so there's no point in getting the flat one fixed now.

[Gortha]

<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite> </cite></p><p>It's honestly a similar situation.  We held back on the bp because there was no point to increase it one day only to have it reduced again shortly thereafter.  The same thing applies here.  I'd rather not make an adjustment in haste for the next update only to see changes with it for the next update that follows.  Brawlers are getting a lot of changes with the expansion so I would recommend a little patience until we can reveal the full scope of what is being done.</p></blockquote><p>you know, this sounds exactly like something I tried to tell my mom when I was 8;</p><p>"why should I make my bed, its only gonna get messed up again tomorrow!?!?</p><p>it didn't work on mom then, and its not working on me now....</p><p>telling brawlers to "have a little patience" at this stage is a bit insulting to be perfectly honest.</p><p>you REALLY need a Dev that play a Brawler class as their Main.... just sayin'</p><p>Edit - Or you could Hire me <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I work cheap</p>

[Aeralik]

<p><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>The whole attitude behind the argument of "we're fixing something 5-10 mo's from now so since it'll be done then there's no point in doing it now" speaks volumes as to why the player base has a disconnect from the design team. Nobody who actually played the game and experienced obvious, glaring problems that were easily fixed would come up with something like this. The evidence is there for this as it's well known that Aerilak plays an assassin and the evidence also supports that assassin class issues get addressed other than at expansion time. Why is it the brawler class related issues are simply met with /ignore? Tell you what, why don't you change assassinate to be boosted by base spell damage instead of base ca damage and then tell the assassin community that it'll be fixed in the expansion? Pick 3 or 4 other random assassin abilities to go along with it. How well do you think that would go over? It's like you guys get a flat tire on your car, and then drive around on the donut for 9 more months because the other tires will be getting replaced then so there's no point in getting the flat one fixed now.</blockquote><p>I am in no way ignoring the issue.  When I was a player one thing I hated was if something was upgraded one month and then things were reversed the next.  That all I am trying to accomplish right now.  There is lots of discussions over the things you want fixed and how to handle them going forward.  So if something is liable to change I don't want to change it in the current context and make you happy only to take it away in February. </p><p>I realize your frustration and that I am in a no win situation on this specific topic.  Either way you are going to be frustrated.  So I would rather err on going with a complete fix rather than tease you with something today and take it away tomorrow.</p>

[Siatfallen]

<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am in no way ignoring the issue.  When I was a player one thing I hated was if something was upgraded one month and then things were reversed the next.  That all I am trying to accomplish right now.  There is lots of discussions over the things you want fixed and how to handle them going forward.  So if something is liable to change I don't want to change it in the current context and make you happy only to take it away in February. </p><p>I realize your frustration and that I am in a no win situation on this specific topic.  Either way you are going to be frustrated.  So I would rather err on going with a complete fix rather than tease you with something today and take it away tomorrow.</p></blockquote><p>Thank you for taking the time to give a meaningful reply to a brawler thread (well, one post and one clarification of said post, which is even better), seems like it's been a long time since that happened. It's good to know you're working on something - whatever it is.Do you have a timeline for when we'll see the drafts for what you're working on out?As per usual, I imagine the brawlers still playing the game are having trouble communicating with you, since they've little idea what you're looking at at this point.The changes made to brawlers between RoK and tSO were rather large, and it sounds like you may be doing more this time - so having time to help us test this would be good.</p>

[Gortha]

<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>The whole attitude behind the argument of "we're fixing something 5-10 mo's from now so since it'll be done then there's no point in doing it now" speaks volumes as to why the player base has a disconnect from the design team. Nobody who actually played the game and experienced obvious, glaring problems that were easily fixed would come up with something like this. The evidence is there for this as it's well known that Aerilak plays an assassin and the evidence also supports that assassin class issues get addressed other than at expansion time. Why is it the brawler class related issues are simply met with /ignore? Tell you what, why don't you change assassinate to be boosted by base spell damage instead of base ca damage and then tell the assassin community that it'll be fixed in the expansion? Pick 3 or 4 other random assassin abilities to go along with it. How well do you think that would go over? It's like you guys get a flat tire on your car, and then drive around on the donut for 9 more months because the other tires will be getting replaced then so there's no point in getting the flat one fixed now.</blockquote><p>I am in no way ignoring the issue.  When I was a player one thing I hated was if something was upgraded one month and then things were reversed the next.  That all I am trying to accomplish right now.  There is lots of discussions over the things you want fixed and how to handle them going forward.  So if something is liable to change I don't want to change it in the current context and make you happy only to take it away in February. </p><p>I realize your frustration and that I am in a no win situation on this specific topic.  Either way you are going to be frustrated.  So I would rather err on going with a complete fix rather than tease you with something today and take it away tomorrow.</p></blockquote><p>I can appreciate the situation you are in, and I do not want to come off sounding whiney and/or ungrateful - the mere fact that you are working on things is music to my ears, I for one can't wait to see whats coming - I just wish that more attention was paid to the Brawler class as a whole - I think I can safely speak for many Brawlers when I say that whatever is coming - it needs to be REALLY good and REALLY well executed.</p>

[Aull]

<p>One thing the brawlers need to understand is that Aeralik cannot please them all at the same time. What ever changes come about in the future for brawlers will either make players who dislike Aeralik love him and those who praise him now renounce him after the changes.</p><p>I do however understand his logic and it makes sense. Until the changes come forth I will continue on with my zerker, sk, or swash. If I do not like what my bruiser becomes come expac it will be no problem since I haven't focused on that toon in quite some time anyway. No withdrawl symtoms to worry with.</p>

[NamaeZero]

<p><cite>Aull wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>One thing the brawlers need to understand is that Aeralik cannot please them all at the same time. What ever changes come about in the future for brawlers will either make players who dislike Aeralik love him and those who praise him now renounce him after the changes.</p><p>I do however understand his logic and it makes sense. Until the changes come forth I will continue on with my zerker, sk, or swash. If I do not like what my bruiser becomes come expac it will be no problem since I haven't focused on that toon in quite some time anyway. No withdrawl symtoms to worry with.</p></blockquote><p>I think at this point Aull, to paraphrase Lincoln, most of the dedicated brawler base would be happy if some of them were pleased just some of the time. For example, Monk's are still the only class in EQ2 with only 3 end line abilities in their class tree; none of which works exactly the way it's labeled as, or with any regularity. There is tons of Brawler stuff that has been sitting on the known issues list from before TSO launched, without any communication as to whether or not it's broken or will be fixed, ever.</p><p>Thank you Aeralik. I really do look forward to the changes you mentioned. I don't want Brawlers to be better than other classes (though I must admit I wouldn't mind that, for a change) I just want us to have a clear role, Tank or DPS, and be able to fufill that role. Just fixing the many, many broken parts would go a long way towards making Brawlers fun again!</p>

[Aull]

<p>If SOE increases brawler tanking skills then many so called dps brawlers are gonna cry "where's the dps?". If SOE increases brawler dps and forsakes any tanking abilities then so called tanking brawlers are gonna cry "where's the tanking tools?"</p><p>I personally do not want "changes". Just saying "changes" or "many changes" does not indicate that those changes are what the community will imbrace with open arms. How about brawlers becoming buff bots?? I personally would hate to see my bruiser being welcomed in groups for my "buffing abilities". No sir/mam.</p><p>What ever happens not every brawler will be satisfied with what ever becomes with their monk or bruiser.</p>

[NamaeZero]

<p><cite>Aull wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If SOE increases brawler tanking skills then many so called dps brawlers are gonna cry "where's the dps?". If SOE increases brawler dps and forsakes any tanking abilities then so called tanking brawlers are gonna cry "where's the tanking tools?"</p><p>I personally do not want "changes". Just saying "changes" or "many changes" does not indicate that those changes are what the community will imbrace with open arms. How about brawlers becoming buff bots?? I personally would hate to see my bruiser being welcomed in groups for my "buffing abilities". No sir/mam.</p><p>What ever happens not every brawler will be satisfied with what ever becomes with their monk or bruiser.</p></blockquote><p>You mean the Bruiser that you haven't focused on in a very long time? What does it matter to you, honestly? If anything, you get a chance that you might want to play your Bruiser again. Right now you don't even have that.</p><p>The important part is that Brawlers get a role of some kind. Sure, some part of the Brawler base won't be happy with what SOE chooses for them, and that's true of any choice someone else makes for you. But at least the remaining part of Brawlers that are willing to adapt will be able to be happy. Right now we face a lot of 'not getting invited to groups/raids because everything we do is done by a factor of 50% or more better by 4+ other classes.' Is it better to stay that way because we can't *all* get what we specifically want?</p>

[Aull]

<p>I agree with you whole-heartedly about brawlers having a role. I do not play my bruiser to the extent that I once did which was everytime I logged into the game.</p><p>My main issue in tso was the fact of aoe aggro being so difficult to accomplish on my bruiser being my reason for gravitating to my sk, zerker, and now swashbuckler. Not that my bruiser couldn't do it but it did take some good effort to get done. So I agree as well its so much harder to get groups with a brawler. For me tanking on the bruiser was never boring, but for the rest of the group it was a different opinions.</p>

[Achala]

<p><cite>Aull wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If SOE increases brawler tanking skills then many so called dps brawlers are gonna cry "where's the dps?".</p></blockquote><p>Shrug.  It has the little Fighter symbol next to my Monk's name in the raid window.  That's why i picked the class.</p><p>A Monk should tank just as well as a comparably equipped (and talented) plate tank.  Clearly, that isn't the case right now or else you wouldn't see almost every group that wants a tank go out of their way to specify "LF plate tank".</p><p>If the devs feel they have to nerf our DPS to balance better survivability, I can live with that.  Anyone who wanted to DPS should have picked a Scout or Mage. </p>

[Aull]

<p><cite>Achala wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aull wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If SOE increases brawler tanking skills then many so called dps brawlers are gonna cry "where's the dps?".</p></blockquote><p>Shrug.  It has the little Fighter symbol next to my Monk's name in the raid window.  That's why i picked the class.</p><p>A Monk should tank just as well as a comparably equipped (and talented) plate tank.  Clearly, that isn't the case right now or else you wouldn't see almost every group that wants a tank go out of their way to specify "LF plate tank".</p><p>If the devs feel they have to nerf our DPS to balance better survivability, I can live with that.  Anyone who wanted to DPS should have picked a Scout or Mage. </p></blockquote><p>Exactly.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p>I am just looking forward to seeing what they are going to come up with.  Aeralik seems to have a good grasp on our issues so I can't wait until BETA, all you brawlers make sure to sign up and give lots of feedback but not the OMG the world is ending devs hate us type be constructive.</p>

[mr23sgte]

<p>Holy #$% a Red name in the Brawler forums - can't wait to see the changes.</p>

[Aull]

<p>Actually its the General Fighter Discussion. Still nice to see a red name answering a brawler subject though. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Aeralik]

<p>It's mainly all avoidance modifications and threat changes for brawlers.  There are changes to how being double attacked works for brawlers, immunity to strikethrough, and an avoidance score that adds to your base avoidance chance.  The score is kinda interesting in that it encourages you to get past the skill and attribute caps for some small additional bonuses unlike our other systems which are all hard capped.</p><p>Other than avoidance changes, its mainly adjusting threat which is something all of the fighters will see.</p>

[Deson]

<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It's mainly all avoidance modifications and threat changes for brawlers.  There are changes to how being double attacked works for brawlers, immunity to strikethrough, and an avoidance score that adds to your base avoidance chance.  The score is kinda interesting in that it encourages you to get past the skill and attribute caps for some small additional bonuses unlike our other systems which are all hard capped.</p><p>Other than avoidance changes, its mainly adjusting threat which is something all of the fighters will see.</p></blockquote><p>A little more detail than you've posted elsewhere and it's appreciated however, are we going to see a more detailed plan/comprehensive listing presented before beta? I'm sure neither of us wants a public discussion repeat of the fighter revamp close to expansion launch.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p>Sounds awesome.</p>

[Dorieon]

<p>Agreed.</p><p>Thx for the update Aeralik.</p>

[Aull]

<p>Yes sir and thanks for the info!</p>

[Aule]

<p>Thank you Aeralik for sharing information. I'm happy to hear that some of the mechanics that result in brawlers having a harder time tanking in raids will be tweaked on the brawler side of the equation. I'll remain hopeful that the consolidation project will successfully repair the problems of the fair number of brawler abilities that use spell crit rate and base spell damage.</p>

[Gilasil]

<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It's mainly all avoidance modifications and threat changes for brawlers.  There are changes to how being double attacked works for brawlers, immunity to strikethrough, and an avoidance score that adds to your base avoidance chance.  The score is kinda interesting in that it encourages you to get past the skill and attribute caps for some small additional bonuses unlike our other systems which are all hard capped.</p><p>Other than avoidance changes, its mainly adjusting threat which is something all of the fighters will see.</p></blockquote><p>Thank you for the info.  It's good to know there may be a future for brawlers.</p><p>I can easily wait until the next expansion since I"m hardly playing EQ2 at all right now.</p>

[Troy]

<p>It nice to see <span ><cite>Aeralik trying to address our brawler concerns and I hope the changes stated will be beautifully intergrated into the design of the game, - but - knowing the 'history' here - I take all this info with a grain of salt. I hope to be proved wrong.</cite></span></p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Leere@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It nice to see <span><cite>Aeralik trying to address our brawler concerns and I hope the changes stated will be beautifully intergrated into the design of the game, - but - knowing the 'history' here - I take all this info with a grain of salt. I hope to be proved wrong.</cite></span></p></blockquote><p>The 'history' is Aeralik has improved the brawler classes year after year since he's been in charge, he also took a relatively garbage SK tank and made them into pure awesome, if history is what we are going by then we are in good hands.</p>

[Aull]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Leere@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It nice to see <span><cite>Aeralik trying to address our brawler concerns and I hope the changes stated will be beautifully intergrated into the design of the game, - but - knowing the 'history' here - I take all this info with a grain of salt. I hope to be proved wrong.</cite></span></p></blockquote><p>The 'history' is Aeralik has improved the brawler classes year after year since he's been in charge, he also took a relatively garbage SK tank and made them into pure awesome, if history is what we are going by then we are in good hands.</p></blockquote><p>Well said.</p>

[Rotate]

<p>After those avoidance changes go threw i think the other tanks are gunna cry lol..</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Rotate@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>After those avoidance changes go threw i think the other tanks are gunna cry lol..</p></blockquote><p>Hopefully they get some stuff too and everyone is happy.</p>

[Aull]

<p>The new changes will definately bring brawlers up to par with plate tanks. Plate tanks will still be #1 in the minds of most players when looking for a tank. It will also be great once those changes take place that brawlers will be filling the tank role better than they are now and hopefully silencing those who think that brawlers are just a dps class and not tanks.</p>

[Lethe5683]

<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mancy@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Dechau wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sure it will be fixed in the next X-pack, but why should we wait 3-4 MONTHS for something that should already work now?</p></blockquote><p>why? because it's not worth the dev's time to fix it. just like our avatar bp had less crit mit than others' bps. it was /bugged and posted about, but since they were going to change avatar items in 5 months, they told us to suck it up.</p></blockquote><p>It's honestly a similar situation.  We held back on the bp because there was no point to increase it one day only to have it reduced again shortly thereafter.  The same thing applies here.  I'd rather not make an adjustment in haste for the next update only to see changes with it for the next update that follows.  Brawlers are getting a lot of changes with the expansion so I would recommend a little patience until we can reveal the full scope of what is being done.</p></blockquote><p>Hopefully that is true, but you must understand my doubts that you really plan to do anything significantly good.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It's honestly a similar situation.  We held back on the bp because there was no point to increase it one day only to have it reduced again shortly thereafter.  The same thing applies here.  I'd rather not make an adjustment in haste for the next update only to see changes with it for the next update that follows.  Brawlers are getting a lot of changes with the expansion so I would recommend a little patience until we can reveal the full scope of what is being done.</p></blockquote><p>Hopefully that is true, but you must understand my doubts that you really plan to do anything significantly good.</p></blockquote><p>Plans and Deliverables are two wildly seperate things <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I'm sure though, given the promise of plenty of testing time for these changes, we'll be able to log in to test around Dec 1st and start getting a feal for it.</p>

[alabama]

<p><cite>Aull wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If SOE increases brawler tanking skills then many so called dps brawlers are gonna cry "where's the dps?". If SOE increases brawler dps and forsakes any tanking abilities then so called tanking brawlers are gonna cry "where's the tanking tools?"</p><p><strong>I personally do not want "changes".</strong> Just saying "changes" or "many changes" does not indicate that those changes are what the community will imbrace with open arms. How about brawlers becoming buff bots?? I personally would hate to see my bruiser being welcomed in groups for my "buffing abilities". No sir/mam.</p><p>What ever happens not every brawler will be satisfied with what ever becomes with their monk or bruiser.</p></blockquote><p>I agree with Aull on the bolded part. When the dev says "changes" it worries me. Been playing my bruiser since pvp launched. Toughed it out through all the changes, the "fixes" that broke us worse, and the very few "fixes that helped us out. The garbage aa that still dont work and the ones that for some reason are under par compared to our plate wearing brothers. I enjoy my bruiser, out of all the characters ive made in eq and eq2, bruis is my favorite char by far. When i decode what they mean by "changes" (just from being a member of this game for so long and seeing how the dev work) it means imo they are reworking the class. A class i enjoy playing. And the outcome will probably be less resemblance of the class i enjoy then fixing problems with my class that do need fixed. At this point in the game i think its obvious the plate tanks are better all around tanks then us brawlers. Brawler dps/tank is a diff argument and i dont wanna go into that now but imo our class is not very far from being fixed. We just need some aoe hate gain so we can control aoe agro better, we need our avoidance fixed (and brawlers need to be ABove all other classes in avoidance period since we wear leather and the plate boys wear plate and have almost the same avoidance.) and we need our dps upped a little bit. We should not parse higher then the predators or mages but out of the fighters we should hands down be the dps class of the fighters.( and im not taalking avatar geared toons im talking normal geared joes should have the same class avatar toons have. Now to make sure you understand what i mean im not saying treasured wearing soloers need to have the same dps or abilties as avatar geared toons, what im saying is you should not have to have end game gear for your class to perform correctly and work as intended.....All those are small tweaks (except for fixing avoidance). I like this class. If they change it to much im afraid i wont like what we become. Having said that its nice to see they are finally looking into brawlers...we shall see if they follow through.</p>

[alabama]

<p><cite>Achala wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aull wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If SOE increases brawler tanking skills then many so called dps brawlers are gonna cry "where's the dps?".</p></blockquote><p>Shrug.  It has the little Fighter symbol next to my Monk's name in the raid window.  That's why i picked the class.</p><p>A Monk should tank just as well as a comparably equipped (and talented) plate tank.  Clearly, that isn't the case right now or else you wouldn't see almost every group that wants a tank go out of their way to specify "LF plate tank".</p><p>If the devs feel they have to nerf our DPS to balance better survivability, I can live with that.  Anyone who wanted to DPS should have picked a Scout or Mage. </p></blockquote><p>i could use that same argument on you. if you wanted to play a tank you should of rolled a plate wearing tank. under the fighter symbol it said wears leather and smashes faces in. that should of been a clue. i wanted a very versitile class who could tank somewhat less then the plates but in return dps more. that was the description of our class...</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>alabama wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I agree with Aull on the bolded part. When the dev says "changes" it worries me. Been playing my bruiser since pvp launched. Toughed it out through all the changes, the "fixes" that broke us worse, and the very few "fixes that helped us out. The garbage aa that still dont work and the ones that for some reason are under par compared to our plate wearing brothers. I enjoy my bruiser, out of all the characters ive made in eq and eq2, bruis is my favorite char by far. When i decode what they mean by "changes" (just from being a member of this game for so long and seeing how the dev work) it means imo they are reworking the class. A class i enjoy playing. And the outcome will probably be less resemblance of the class i enjoy then fixing problems with my class that do need fixed. At this point in the game i think its obvious the plate tanks are better all around tanks then us brawlers. Brawler dps/tank is a diff argument and i dont wanna go into that now but imo our class is not very far from being fixed. We just need some aoe hate gain so we can control aoe agro better, we need our avoidance fixed (and brawlers need to be ABove all other classes in avoidance period since we wear leather and the plate boys wear plate and have almost the same avoidance.) and we need our dps upped a little bit. We should not parse higher then the predators or mages but out of the fighters we should hands down be the dps class of the fighters.( and im not taalking avatar geared toons im talking normal geared joes should have the same class avatar toons have. Now to make sure you understand what i mean im not saying treasured wearing soloers need to have the same dps or abilties as avatar geared toons, what im saying is you should not have to have end game gear for your class to perform correctly and work as intended.....All those are small tweaks (except for fixing avoidance). I like this class. If they change it to much im afraid i wont like what we become. Having said that its nice to see they are finally looking into brawlers...we shall see if they follow through.</p></blockquote><p>It isn't too hard to figure out what the changes will be with all the hints that are being dropped.</p><p>Avoidance will be fixed and our agro generation will be buffed by the fighter changes from last winter coming back.  There are many other things which would be great if fixed on brawlers but at least those are the 2 that are most needed.</p>

[Gilasil]

<p>Hopefully they'll do something about raids usually needing no more then two fighters if that.   Fixing brawlers is great, and I have high hopes, but it WILL put us squarely into the tank pigeonhole.</p><p>I really like to tank, but I want to be included even more.</p><p>Of course, if small groups can get gear comparable to what raids can get (with comparable difficulty) then a lot of those problems diminish.</p>

[Aull]

<p>The only way I see brawlers showing any increase come next expansion is if the plate fighters do not receive any improvements. Otherwise if plates are increased to have better performance along side brawlers then what ever saving grace that brawlers do get will go unnoticed. In turn brawlers will still have the same issues all over again.</p><p>Not that I wish plates not to see any increases to their abilities since I have two of them. In all reality it will be interesting to see what happens for brawlers.</p>

[alabama]

<p>Dont limit our ability to use our fighter stances the way we choose when you rework fighters. That was my only problem with the fighter changes they scrapped few months back. Our stances already have bonuses to each play style tank/dps/middle stance. We should be free do do any role we choose with any of those stances. I and most of the good tanks i know, know how to effectively stance dance when the time is right. Removing that option takes my ability to play my guy how i want. If i want to main tank raids in offensive (and maybe die instantly) that should be my choice, if i want to dps in defensive (and miss half my hits) that is my choice. Dont corner us into what playstyle our stances are suposed to be used for. The whole lose agro in offensive and gain agro in deffensive idea to fix our hate problems was bonkers. Please leave that idea dead and come up with a alternate way of fixing us fighters that gives us the freedom to play how we choose still.</p>

[sensie]

<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It's mainly all avoidance modifications and threat changes for brawlers.  There are changes to how being double attacked works for brawlers, immunity to strikethrough, and an avoidance score that adds to your base avoidance chance.  The score is kinda interesting in that it encourages you to get past the skill and attribute caps for some small additional bonuses unlike our other systems which are all hard capped.</p><p>Other than avoidance changes, its mainly adjusting threat which is something all of the fighters will see.</p></blockquote><p>Its nice to see things are being looked at, but I am somewhat skeptical.  The reason being even if we get small additional bonuses to our avoidence, unless the way avoidence is checked I do not see it making brawlers any better.  We can up our base avoidence, deflection, and parry to all past the hard cap, however since we have 3 checks for avoidence that are all pretty low based off a RNG, and if we receiver too much we become unhittable (overpowered).  This is why I believe the whole system of avoidence tanking needs to be looked at.</p>

[Aule]

I think the whole system of absolutes derived from only having the options of {hit|miss} is the problem. Stoneskin is a big part of this too. The end result is that mobs have to hit really freaking hard so that when they do finally land a hit, it's for a decent amount. I would be in favor of changing all (or nearly all) methods that completely avoid being struck and instead change them to reduce damage by various percentages.

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I think the whole system of absolutes derived from only having the options of {hit|miss} is the problem. Stoneskin is a big part of this too. The end result is that mobs have to hit really freaking hard so that when they do finally land a hit, it's for a decent amount. I would be in favor of changing all (or nearly all) methods that completely avoid being struck and instead change them to reduce damage by various percentages.</blockquote><p>I think the problem is the whole huge hit thing.  They should move away from that and have faster smaller hits.  Mobs just shouldn't hit for max HP ever its turned healers into spam machines, I mean seriously whats an average end game mob do for dps in a tank like 1.5 - 3k no reason why it has to be produced through 20k auto attacks.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p>Well with the rumours Aeralik is gone from SOE I hope our hopes on being buffed don't get mixed up in the power shuffle <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[alabama]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well with the rumours Aeralik is gone from SOE I hope our hopes on being buffed don't get mixed up in the power shuffle <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>agree. whatever glimpse of hope we had (haha hoping on sucklick to fix us haha) has just been shot down. oh well i didnt really expect any changes anyways.</p>

[Eliezer]

<p><cite>alabama wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Dont limit our ability to use our fighter stances the way we choose when you rework fighters. That was my only problem with the fighter changes they scrapped few months back. Our stances already have bonuses to each play style tank/dps/middle stance. We should be free do do any role we choose with any of those stances. I and most of the good tanks i know, know how to effectively stance dance when the time is right. Removing that option takes my ability to play my guy how i want. If i want to main tank raids in offensive (and maybe die instantly) that should be my choice, if i want to dps in defensive (and miss half my hits) that is my choice. Dont corner us into what playstyle our stances are suposed to be used for. The whole lose agro in offensive and gain agro in deffensive idea to fix our hate problems was bonkers. Please leave that idea dead and come up with a alternate way of fixing us fighters that gives us the freedom to play how we choose still.</p></blockquote><p>Sorry, that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  If you try and "tank" in offensive and "maybe die instantly" and/or "dps" in defensive and "miss half (your) hits" that IS making it so you MUST tank in defensive and DPS in offensive, so what are you wanting here? :-p</p><p>"Stance Dancing" has two possible rationales from a gameplay standpoint:  Either it is intended to be done by designers in order to add a skill/difficulty factor to gameplay, or it is an unintended necessity in order to max output.</p><p>In the case of the former, it would be left in, and designed so that its required.  In the case of the latter, the Devs would simply alter the game such that optimum output is reached when in the desired stance and "dancing" doesn't provide a benefit.</p><p>I'm OK with either.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Eliezer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sorry, that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  If you try and "tank" in offensive and "maybe die instantly" and/or "dps" in defensive and "miss half (your) hits" that IS making it so you MUST tank in defensive and DPS in offensive, so what are you wanting here? :-p</p><p>"Stance Dancing" has two possible rationales from a gameplay standpoint:  Either it is intended to be done by designers in order to add a skill/difficulty factor to gameplay, or it is an unintended necessity in order to max output.</p><p>In the case of the former, it would be left in, and designed so that its required.  In the case of the latter, the Devs would simply alter the game such that optimum output is reached when in the desired stance and "dancing" doesn't provide a benefit.</p><p>I'm OK with either.</p></blockquote><p>The fact is there is a progression to tanking in this game.  You start out in defensive and load up on everything you can to survive, as you get better gear and the people around you get better gear you slowly move into an area where you can sacrifice survivability for more dps.  By creating a situation where we are forced to stay in defensive to be effective tanks you effectively eliminate half of a tanks end game which is why people don't like it.  Stances should be PURELY survivability balanced not balanced around agro generation like they were trying in the fighter 2.0 changes, yes there should be an increase in agro generation in defensive just due to the penalty's associated with not hitting as hard or as much so you can live but it should be balanced to the offensive side.  Tanks have no problem sacrificing DPS to go into defensive the problem was they made it so you couldn't hold agro in offensive and thats why everyone freaked out.</p>

[Eliezer]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>The fact is there is a progression to tanking in this game.  You start out in defensive and load up on everything you can to survive, as you get better gear and the people around you get better gear you slowly move into an area where you can sacrifice survivability for more dps.  By creating a situation where we are forced to stay in defensive to be effective tanks you effectively eliminate half of a tanks end game which is why people don't like it.  Stances should be PURELY survivability balanced not balanced around agro generation like they were trying in the fighter 2.0 changes, yes there should be an increase in agro generation in defensive just due to the penalty's associated with not hitting as hard or as much so you can live but it should be balanced to the offensive side.  Tanks have no problem sacrificing DPS to go into defensive the problem was they made it so you couldn't hold agro in offensive and thats why everyone freaked out.</blockquote><p>I don't really have a problem with your idea, giving tanks more fun is always good.  However, what you describe is trivialized content, not natural progression.</p><p>If it requires Defensive to tank, and then when you have all the best gear, you can tank it in Offensive, then the issue isn't progression.  You simply outgear the encounter such that it is nearing trivialization.</p><p>What you need is harder encounters then :-p</p><p>But its a toss up ultimately like everything else, by linking Aggro Management to Stance, they make it easier for Tanks to switch from tanking to DPS roles.  I mean, isn't a Fighter in Offensive doing DPS?  So wouldn't he or she be naturally out-DPSed by full-time DPS, and therefore they'd lose aggro...</p><p>They probably just need to take stances to the drawing board again to accomodate what you are looking for.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Eliezer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>The fact is there is a progression to tanking in this game.  You start out in defensive and load up on everything you can to survive, as you get better gear and the people around you get better gear you slowly move into an area where you can sacrifice survivability for more dps.  By creating a situation where we are forced to stay in defensive to be effective tanks you effectively eliminate half of a tanks end game which is why people don't like it.  Stances should be PURELY survivability balanced not balanced around agro generation like they were trying in the fighter 2.0 changes, yes there should be an increase in agro generation in defensive just due to the penalty's associated with not hitting as hard or as much so you can live but it should be balanced to the offensive side.  Tanks have no problem sacrificing DPS to go into defensive the problem was they made it so you couldn't hold agro in offensive and thats why everyone freaked out.</blockquote><p>I don't really have a problem with your idea, giving tanks more fun is always good.  However, what you describe is trivialized content, not natural progression.</p><p>If it requires Defensive to tank, and then when you have all the best gear, you can tank it in Offensive, then the issue isn't progression.  You simply outgear the encounter such that it is nearing trivialization.</p><p>What you need is harder encounters then :-p</p><p>But its a toss up ultimately like everything else, by linking Aggro Management to Stance, they make it easier for Tanks to switch from tanking to DPS roles.  I mean, isn't a Fighter in Offensive doing DPS?  So wouldn't he or she be naturally out-DPSed by full-time DPS, and therefore they'd lose aggro...</p><p>They probably just need to take stances to the drawing board again to accomodate what you are looking for.</p></blockquote><p>I disagree, trivialized content doesn't exist until you can full on offensively tank the content thus using this method prolongs the actual challenge of a mob.  So no you don't need to make a mob 1 shot tanks to keep it relevent to progression since there are more measurements then just the mob dead, people like to kill them faster and faster dps higher and higher maybe get a flawless acheivement or sense of urgency etc.</p>

[Eliezer]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I disagree, trivialized content doesn't exist until you can full on offensively tank the content thus using this method prolongs the actual challenge of a mob.  So no you don't need to make a mob 1 shot tanks to keep it relevent to progression since there are more measurements then just the mob dead, people like to kill them faster and faster dps higher and higher maybe get a flawless acheivement or sense of urgency etc.</blockquote><p>Trivialized was perhaps too strong a term, but approaching trivial isn't.</p><p>I stand by my original analysis, the devs should rework stances if stance dancing is something people enjoy doing.  They do not (to me anyway) appear really designed for that purpose.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Eliezer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I disagree, trivialized content doesn't exist until you can full on offensively tank the content thus using this method prolongs the actual challenge of a mob.  So no you don't need to make a mob 1 shot tanks to keep it relevent to progression since there are more measurements then just the mob dead, people like to kill them faster and faster dps higher and higher maybe get a flawless acheivement or sense of urgency etc.</blockquote><p>Trivialized was perhaps too strong a term, but approaching trivial isn't.</p><p>I stand by my original analysis, the devs should rework stances if stance dancing is something people enjoy doing.  They do not (to me anyway) appear really designed for that purpose.</p></blockquote><p>If you don't feel like you are getting stronger and better as you progress through this game then what is the sense of even playing?  I have killed everything there is to kill the whole getting stronger so things are easier part is the carrot that keeps us doing these same encounters over and over again.  And if you are weird and don't want things easier you simply just dont upgrade your items.</p>

[Eliezer]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>If you don't feel like you are getting stronger and better as you progress through this game then what is the sense of even playing?  I have killed everything there is to kill the whole getting stronger so things are easier part is the carrot that keeps us doing these same encounters over and over again.  And if you are weird and don't want things easier you simply just dont upgrade your items.</blockquote><p>You are putting words in my mouth here...  But the games are in some ways a treadmill.  You get more powerful, and what do you do?  Fight more powerful stuff :-p</p><p>If someone is weird and doesn't want more difficulty then can simply fight gray content, touche! :-p</p><p>I think we are at the point where we are debating minutiae.  However, there is a response to your sentiment, its called Sentinel's Fate :-p  You are simply stuck in the gray area where you have beaten all the content and are stuck waiting for the new content.  Now, its a matter of opinion as to whether beating the same old content faster is the same thing as progression.  In my opinion it isn't, but that's just opinion.  Whatever you have fun doing is the right way to play!</p>

[Traxor]

<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It's honestly a similar situation.  We held back on the bp because there was no point to increase it one day only to have it reduced again shortly thereafter.  The same thing applies here.  I'd rather not make an adjustment in haste for the next update only to see changes with it for the next update that follows.  Brawlers are getting a lot of changes with the expansion so I would recommend a little patience until we can reveal the full scope of what is being done.</p></blockquote><p>Ignore This. Reroll before 2010 so you can get max aa at 80 and be ready for the drive to 90.</p>

[Kaliguwra]

<p>Bump. For. Great. Justice. </p><p>I guess it crits now due to the consolidation, but it is no where near as potent as AE Auto attack. Boost the dmg plz. </p>