Rework of the Fencer Line (Wisdom line for Rogues)?

[Darkor]

<p>We all remember the rework of the buckler line for warrior. Things changed and it was not a viable spec anymore and the same happend pretty much to the wisdom line for rogues. Noone is going to spec that anymore because the loss of dps is huge. I remember a red name saying that they are planing a rework of the fencer line. I dont remember if it was Aeralik or Rothar. Does anyone happen to have a link?</p><p>To the dev: Do you still plan to change/upgrade this line into something usefull and if so when can we expect a change? Any information are appreciated.</p>

[Aeralik]

<p>I was actually going to upgrade this line with the rogue/summoner changes that are coming up at some point.  I'm likely not going to give out percentage based double attack improvements though and it will upgrade already existing elements of the rogue instead.</p>

[Coho1]

<p>Thanks...<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Darkor]

<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I was actually going to upgrade this line with the rogue/summoner changes that are coming up at some point.  I'm likely not going to give out percentage based double attack improvements though and it will upgrade already existing elements of the rogue instead.</p></blockquote><p>Thanks for the answer. If you actually need ideas, let us know. We will gladly give out some ideas on what the tree could look like.</p>

[Trojenn]

<p>Eh, heard a wierd rumor floating around the channels today about the update to the Swash Wisdom Line</p><p>I heard that they were going to replace the DA% of the WIS line with Flurry instead but keep the 1 Weapon restriction with upping the chance from the 51.5% to 75%. So with current gear and buffs we could have 100% DA with and 75% Flurry chance however only equipping 1 weapon.</p><p>If this is true, would it help the rouge or just give us the same useless WIS line we already have. I am not 100% on how flurry works but a little guess work.</p><p>Flurry is a chance to hit the mob Multiple Times with your primary weapon on a succesful attack.</p><p>Question 1 :  Can you Flurry on a double attack? If you can does both hits flurry or just the initial one.</p><p>Question 2 : Exactly how many succesive hits do you get on a flurry " 2 - 3 - 4  ect... " or is it just an increased hit.</p><p>So after putting together some numbers here is what I came up with.. Giving Question # 2 the answer of 4 hits.</p><p>Weapons : Both are represented at each doing 500 Damage</p><ul><li> <ul><li>Single Wield with Flurry on initial hit only.</li><li>100 Hits at 75% Flurry and 100% DA, Single Wield</li><li>75% out of 100 would be 75 times. So out of 100 you would hit for 2500, 75 times, and 1000, 25 times.</li><li>187500 + 25000 = 212500 Total Damage</li><li>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</li><li>Single Wield with Flurry on both hits.</li><li>100 Hits at 75% Flurry and 100% DA, Single Wield</li><li>75% out of 100 would be 75 times. So out of 100 you would hit for 4000, 75 times, and 1000, 25 times.</li><li>300000 + 25000 = 325000 Total Damage</li><li>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</li><li>Dual Wield with No Flurry</li><li>100 Hits at 0% Flurry and 100% DA Duel Wield</li><li>100% out of 100 would be 100 times. So out of 100 you would hit for 2000 100 times.</li><li>200000 Total Damage</li><li>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</li><li>Duel Wield with Flury on initial hit only.</li><li>100 Hits at 5% Flurry and 100% DA Dual Wield</li><li>5% out of 100 would be 5 times. So out of 100 you would hit for 3500 5 times, and 2000 95 times.</li><li>17500 + 190000 = 207500 Total Damage</li><li>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</li><li>Dual Wield with Flury on both hits.</li><li>100 Hits at 5% Flurry and 100% DA Dual Wield</li><li>5% out of 100 would be 5 times. So out of 100 you would hit for 5000 5 times, and 2000 95 times.</li><li>25000 + 190000 = 215000 Total Damage</li></ul></li></ul><p>Now with using just base Numbers, you can see that with using 1 Weapon equiped you would get a slight increase of damage, secondaly there is not weapon out there that hits as hard as our Mythical. However you would loose the stats and bonuses of that offhand weapon by using the Wis Line if indeed it does get changed to this. Either way on how Flurry Works with double attack, it would still be better to have 1 Weapon with 75% Flurry 100% DA then having two weapons with 5% Flurry and 100% DA.</p><p>I would even wager that with difference in damage from our Myth to other offhands in game, if they left the % of increase at 51.5% we would still do more Damage with 100% DA and 51.5% Flurry " Along with Lunge Reversal " then we would Dual Wielding with 5% Flurry and 100% DA..</p><p>Opinions please.</p><p>I do not think this would be overpowering due to the fact that we would be giving up the stats from offhand weapons to obtain this increase. It would be a risk vs reward situation pertaining to bonuses offhands would provide in game. If this rumor is not true, how about some opinions on if you would like to see this implemented.</p>

[Aeralik]

<p><cite>Trojenn@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Eh, heard a wierd rumor floating around the channels today about the update to the Swash Wisdom Line</p><p>I heard that they were going to replace the DA% of the WIS line with Flurry instead but keep the 1 Weapon restriction with upping the chance from the 51.5% to 75%. So with current gear and buffs we could have 100% DA with and 75% Flurry chance however only equipping 1 weapon.</p></blockquote><p>I can confirm that rumor is totally wrong and not even close to what is planned since the one hand restriction.  It then becomes more inline with something you expect from a rogue <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Just remember, Mr. "A reliable source" ( or any of his associates ) is often more wrong than right.</p>

[Dannnybones]

<p>Please just make sure it does not give da, or crit since we cap both of those with a good amount of ease on raid.  Thanks : )</p>

[Trojenn]

<p>Can you give us a slight inclination of what the change will be <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</p><p>Saying it will be changed to be inline with the rogue roll is a very vast and wide spectrum. A little narrowing it down and well, insight as to when we could see this on test would relieve ALOT of us so we can start feed back.</p>

[Aeralik]

<p><cite>Dilbert@The Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Can you give us a slight inclination of what the change will be <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />.</p><p>Saying it will be changed to be inline with the rogue roll is a very vast and wide spectrum. A little narrowing it down and well, insight as to when we could see this on test would relieve ALOT of us so we can start feed back.</p></blockquote><p>I think that narrowed it down quite a bit to be honest <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Dannnybones]

<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Dilbert@The Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Can you give us a slight inclination of what the change will be <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />.</p><p>Saying it will be changed to be inline with the rogue roll is a very vast and wide spectrum. A little narrowing it down and well, insight as to when we could see this on test would relieve ALOT of us so we can start feed back.</p></blockquote><p>I think that narrowed it down quite a bit to be honest <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>What he's saying there is if he gives us something that actually benefitted our dps, it would put us to close to his classes!</p>

[Wilin]

<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Dilbert@The Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Can you give us a slight inclination of what the change will be <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />.</p><p>Saying it will be changed to be inline with the rogue roll is a very vast and wide spectrum. A little narrowing it down and well, insight as to when we could see this on test would relieve ALOT of us so we can start feed back.</p></blockquote><p>I think that narrowed it down quite a bit to be honest <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Debuffs.</p>

[RingleToo]

<p><cite>Dilbert@The Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Eh, heard a wierd rumor floating around the channels today about the update to the Swash Wisdom Line</p><p>I heard that they were going to replace the DA% of the WIS line with Flurry instead but keep the 1 Weapon restriction with upping the chance from the 51.5% to 75%. So with current gear and buffs we could have 100% DA with and 75% Flurry chance however only equipping 1 weapon.</p><p>If this is true, would it help the rouge or just give us the same useless WIS line we already have. I am not 100% on how flurry works but a little guess work.</p><p>Flurry is a chance to hit the mob Multiple Times with your primary weapon on a succesful attack.</p><p>Question 1 :  Can you Flurry on a double attack? If you can does both hits flurry or just the initial one.</p><p>Question 2 : Exactly how many succesive hits do you get on a flurry " 2 - 3 - 4  ect... " or is it just an increased hit.</p><p>So after putting together some numbers here is what I came up with.. Giving Question # 2 the answer of 4 hits.</p><p>Weapons : Both are represented at each doing 500 Damage</p><ul><li> <ul><li>Single Wield with Flurry on initial hit only.</li><li>100 Hits at 75% Flurry and 100% DA, Single Wield</li><li>75% out of 100 would be 75 times. So out of 100 you would hit for 2500, 75 times, and 1000, 25 times.</li><li>187500 + 25000 = 212500 Total Damage</li><li>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</li><li>Single Wield with Flurry on both hits.</li><li>100 Hits at 75% Flurry and 100% DA, Single Wield</li><li>75% out of 100 would be 75 times. So out of 100 you would hit for 4000, 75 times, and 1000, 25 times.</li><li>300000 + 25000 = 325000 Total Damage</li><li>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</li><li>Dual Wield with No Flurry</li><li>100 Hits at 0% Flurry and 100% DA Duel Wield</li><li>100% out of 100 would be 100 times. So out of 100 you would hit for 2000 100 times.</li><li>200000 Total Damage</li><li>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</li><li>Duel Wield with Flury on initial hit only.</li><li>100 Hits at 5% Flurry and 100% DA Dual Wield</li><li>5% out of 100 would be 5 times. So out of 100 you would hit for 3500 5 times, and 2000 95 times.</li><li>17500 + 190000 = 207500 Total Damage</li><li>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</li><li>Dual Wield with Flury on both hits.</li><li>100 Hits at 5% Flurry and 100% DA Dual Wield</li><li>5% out of 100 would be 5 times. So out of 100 you would hit for 5000 5 times, and 2000 95 times.</li><li>25000 + 190000 = 215000 Total Damage</li></ul></li></ul><p>Now with using just base Numbers, you can see that with using 1 Weapon equiped you would get a slight increase of damage, secondaly there is not weapon out there that hits as hard as our Mythical. However you would loose the stats and bonuses of that offhand weapon by using the Wis Line if indeed it does get changed to this. Either way on how Flurry Works with double attack, it would still be better to have 1 Weapon with 75% Flurry 100% DA then having two weapons with 5% Flurry and 100% DA.</p><p>I would even wager that with difference in damage from our Myth to other offhands in game, if they left the % of increase at 51.5% we would still do more Damage with 100% DA and 51.5% Flurry " Along with Lunge Reversal " then we would Dual Wielding with 5% Flurry and 100% DA..</p><p>Opinions please.</p><p>I do not think this would be overpowering due to the fact that we would be giving up the stats from offhand weapons to obtain this increase. It would be a risk vs reward situation pertaining to bonuses offhands would provide in game. If this rumor is not true, how about some opinions on if you would like to see this implemented.</p></blockquote><p>Over the years I've gone back and forth on dual vs. single for the very reason that the off hand weapon can provide some very nice bonuses - Nox Noctis as one example. I just don't know how one factors in Nox Noctis bonuses +35 Str, +7 damage per second and +5 double attack as well as Blackest Night in the above example. If having one weapon still has the advantage, it can't be by much. I don't think I'd be persuaded to switch from dual wield, but Ccertainly, implementing flurry is a nice idea and wouldn't be overpowering.</p>

[Trojenn]

<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Dilbert@The Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Can you give us a slight inclination of what the change will be <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />.</p><p>Saying it will be changed to be inline with the rogue roll is a very vast and wide spectrum. A little narrowing it down and well, insight as to when we could see this on test would relieve ALOT of us so we can start feed back.</p></blockquote><p>I think that narrowed it down quite a bit to be honest <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Hmm.. Well, you have said yourself that Rogues primary ability was DPS / not Debuffs, so stating that it will be more inline with Rogues, then I can see it being a boost to DPS .. Now, if you go back to pre-ROK/TSO were Rogues were debuff monsters, then yes, WIS line change for debuffs. I wouldn't think a Dev would go back on what they defined our class for witch was primarily DPS now.</p>

[-=Hoss=-]

<p>Well, the flurry rumor was interesting.  Too bad it wasn't true.  But did you take into account that with a single weapon you're also actually swinging it faster?  50% faster if memory serves. </p><p>Anyway, is there any recent word on this since the dev who responded is no longer there? </p><p>PS i think the 'role of a rogue' that he was referring to was tanking.</p>

[Cucuy]

<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Trojenn@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Eh, heard a wierd rumor floating around the channels today about the update to the Swash Wisdom Line</p><p>I heard that they were going to replace the DA% of the WIS line with Flurry instead but keep the 1 Weapon restriction with upping the chance from the 51.5% to 75%. So with current gear and buffs we could have 100% DA with and 75% Flurry chance however only equipping 1 weapon.</p></blockquote><p><strong>I can confirm that rumor is totally wrong and not even close to what is planned since the one hand restriction</strong>.  It then becomes more inline with something you expect from a rogue <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />  Just remember, Mr. "A reliable source" ( or any of his associates ) is often more wrong than right.</p></blockquote><p>I'm not sure if I'm reading that right, but does that mean there won't be a one hand restriction to whatever is done to the WIS line?</p>

[TheSpin]

<p>A lot of changes are coming to AA trees with the expansion and this will just be one of em.  I'm tryin not to worry or think too much about it all until I see it for myself.  Beta isn't too far off anyway.</p>

[Thunndar316]

<p>These changes dead or what?</p><p>Buelar?</p>

[Darkor]

<p>they are dead, the wis line is still pretty terrible on beta. Noone has cared for us =x</p>

[Lookout]

<p>eulogy for aeralik</p>