DO SOMETHING WITH US [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

BChizzle

09-20-2009, 07:08 PM

<cite>AbbuCloudshaper wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah, brawlers in general have been ignored. Bruisers are having as hard of a time as monks.Unless you're in a major raiding guild, its extremely hard to get into raids or any of the high end single group instances. Monk's just aren't desired. Unless we have all T4/200AA's/Myth'd. even then, in a x4 raid they aren't gonna let us tank. Maybe WoE...maybe.I just want us to be considered viable at SOMETHING. Whether it be tanking or DPS'ing. If its tanking, then bump our mitigation, or make our avoidance actually mean something. If its DPS, then make it so we do more than a quarter of the damage of a wiz or assassin. We shouldn't out DPS scouts, but we should be hitting a little closer. Although I'd like to see us go the way of tanking, since we are fighters. But honestly I'll take anything more specific then what we are now. </blockquote>You guys need to stop crying and make something of yourselves. We dps more then any other tank and can tank anything. I don't know why you would expect to just hop in a raid without the proper amount of crit mit and expect to MT against probably well established tanks who were already in the guild ahead of you. It is just rediculous to think so, earn your spot gear up CORRECTLY and you will be doing excellent dps and able to tank anything. Most of the problem we have is people saying outlandish things like "We don't do 25% of wizard dps" people read that crap and then you expect to get invited to groups, good luck with that.

BChizzle

09-20-2009, 07:15 PM

<cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>well i would like to have the bawler class be like furys, where we can either spec AA for tanking or DPS. make it where it is only 1 or the other. for me i dont care much about tanking and only do it when i have to, but my dps is no high enough to get into very many good groups. mostly only get into groups that a guildy forms or a person in the groups has grouped with me before. i hate doing the LS, EF, and abbey groups over and over again it gets really old really fast.</blockquote>New flash priests are a broken class, you want us to be like a class that cant do their jobs and are underpowered compared to the other subclasses grats according to people here we are already that.

Aull

09-20-2009, 07:17 PM

Tanking on my zerker or sk provides both survivability and good dps. Aoe aggro and dps sky rockets on aoe fights for sk's and zerkers. Brawlers have good dps and survivability is only good if the gear is top items for the tier. Aoe aggro and dps for brawlers is far below the zerker, sk, and even the paladin. Not say that brawlers need to become aoe damage specialist but they do need better aoe aggro. Even the guards need it as well.If aoe aggro could be managed better for brawlers then that will help greatly for pug instance grouping. Tabbing through mobs is a pain but that is the only way any brawler has a snowballs chance in hades in holding aggro.

BChizzle

09-20-2009, 09:50 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tanking on my zerker or sk provides both survivability and good dps. Aoe aggro and dps sky rockets on aoe fights for sk's and zerkers. Brawlers have good dps and survivability is only good if the gear is top items for the tier. Aoe aggro and dps for brawlers is far below the zerker, sk, and even the paladin. Not say that brawlers need to become aoe damage specialist but they do need better aoe aggro. Even the guards need it as well.If aoe aggro could be managed better for brawlers then that will help greatly for pug instance grouping. Tabbing through mobs is a pain but that is the only way any brawler has a snowballs chance in hades in holding aggro.</blockquote>Funny I hit craneflock and I have fine ae dps. As far as far as top items for this tier goes I call BS since I tanked every instance in this tier in RoK gear. But hey way to make your argument that ae tank classes hold ae agro better to a single target tank.

cr0wangel

09-20-2009, 11:31 PM

Monks were made to be some kind of Jack-of-all-trades. I like the class like this, if your main goal is to raid, pick another class, simple as that...

Mosha D'Khan

09-21-2009, 01:18 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>well i would like to have the bawler class be like furys, where we can either spec AA for tanking or DPS. make it where it is only 1 or the other. for me i dont care much about tanking and only do it when i have to, but my dps is no high enough to get into very many good groups. mostly only get into groups that a guildy forms or a person in the groups has grouped with me before. i hate doing the LS, EF, and abbey groups over and over again it gets really old really fast.</blockquote>New flash priests are a broken class, you want us to be like a class that cant do their jobs and are underpowered compared to the other subclasses grats according to people here we are already that.</blockquote>well if you have not noticed lately we ARE A BROKEN CLASS!!!!! and as far and MT raids i dont care to do, i am just fine dpsing in them. but with my 52% mit crit i guess that is not good enough then. i am T3 and up for all but shoulders (still T2) and have all fabled jewelry. as for the dps factor i hit about 6k on raids with and can spike up to 9k. the problem i am having is tanking a zone because i die to dang quick and cant keep agro on aoe and group mobs. as a bruiser with no self haste crane flock is crap and does me no good. the only real reason i get into raids is because of my guild and that i am the only person in the guild that plays a brawler for there main. the brawlers need some work done to them so we can tank the high end zones like PoF and outer guk. i am sick of being passed up for another tank when i can hold agro way better than any of the ones i get passed up by. i guess the point i am trying to make is i want to beable to dps when i dont have to tank and tank where needed. make the dang class have a reason for still being around. and on the matter of being highes dps out of the fighters.... i call major BS because i struggle to stay ahead of of the tanks in my guild on raids and on some pulls depending on how the fight goes they will out dps me. and on most names like Thet in TOMC i do get out dpsed even when i am on the mob the whole time. if they can dps and tank in offensive stance we are pretty much usless unless for sisters in Shard of Hate.

BChizzle

09-21-2009, 01:48 AM

<cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>well if you have not noticed lately we ARE A BROKEN CLASS!!!!! and as far and MT raids i dont care to do, i am just fine dpsing in them. but with my 52% mit crit i guess that is not good enough then. i am T3 and up for all but shoulders (still T2) and have all fabled jewelry. as for the dps factor i hit about 6k on raids with and can spike up to 9k. the problem i am having is tanking a zone because i die to dang quick and cant keep agro on aoe and group mobs. as a bruiser with no self haste crane flock is crap and does me no good. the only real reason i get into raids is because of my guild and that i am the only person in the guild that plays a brawler for there main. the brawlers need some work done to them so we can tank the high end zones like PoF and outer guk. i am sick of being passed up for another tank when i can hold agro way better than any of the ones i get passed up by. i guess the point i am trying to make is i want to beable to dps when i dont have to tank and tank where needed. make the dang class have a reason for still being around. and on the matter of being highes dps out of the fighters.... i call major BS because i struggle to stay ahead of of the tanks in my guild on raids and on some pulls depending on how the fight goes they will out dps me. and on most names like Thet in TOMC i do get out dpsed even when i am on the mob the whole time. if they can dps and tank in offensive stance we are pretty much usless unless for sisters in Shard of Hate.</blockquote>I tanked Outer Guk and POF before T3 gear existed, you clearly just aren't very good at your class. But hey they should just change our whole class because Mosha here can't figure out how to tank on his bruiser.

BChizzle

09-21-2009, 01:49 AM

<cite>Narringan@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Monks were made to be some kind of Jack-of-all-trades. I like the class like this, if your main goal is to raid, pick another class, simple as that...</blockquote>Incorrect, monks were made to be fighters aka tanks and did great at it until they took away our shields.

Aull

09-21-2009, 10:49 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Narringan@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Monks were made to be some kind of Jack-of-all-trades. I like the class like this, if your main goal is to raid, pick another class, simple as that...</blockquote>Incorrect, monks were made to be fighters aka tanks and did great at it until they took away our shields.</blockquote>Wait just a minute. I though you said monks were fine, but now I am reading this as they are less of a tank since shields have been taken away?

Mosha D'Khan

09-21-2009, 11:06 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>well if you have not noticed lately we ARE A BROKEN CLASS!!!!! and as far and MT raids i dont care to do, i am just fine dpsing in them. but with my 52% mit crit i guess that is not good enough then. i am T3 and up for all but shoulders (still T2) and have all fabled jewelry. as for the dps factor i hit about 6k on raids with and can spike up to 9k. the problem i am having is tanking a zone because i die to dang quick and cant keep agro on aoe and group mobs. as a bruiser with no self haste crane flock is crap and does me no good. the only real reason i get into raids is because of my guild and that i am the only person in the guild that plays a brawler for there main. the brawlers need some work done to them so we can tank the high end zones like PoF and outer guk. i am sick of being passed up for another tank when i can hold agro way better than any of the ones i get passed up by. i guess the point i am trying to make is i want to beable to dps when i dont have to tank and tank where needed. make the dang class have a reason for still being around. and on the matter of being highes dps out of the fighters.... i call major BS because i struggle to stay ahead of of the tanks in my guild on raids and on some pulls depending on how the fight goes they will out dps me. and on most names like Thet in TOMC i do get out dpsed even when i am on the mob the whole time. if they can dps and tank in offensive stance we are pretty much usless unless for sisters in Shard of Hate.</blockquote>I tanked Outer Guk and POF before T3 gear existed, you clearly just aren't very good at your class. But hey they should just change our whole class because Mosha here can't figure out how to tank on his bruiser.</blockquote>you said you have tanked all this stuff and said you have done it is RoK gear? is this gear RoK VP gear or RoK avatar gear? because if it is either of those then your tanking it with some of the higher end gear that most players cant obtain, because like you said we have to earn our spot and with the way the brawler class is you cant have that chance in getting in the raid to earn your spot because most raids dont want us. SORRY WE ARE ALL NOT LIKE YOU WITH A RAID SPOT AND THE BEST GEAR FOR THE TIER!!!!

BChizzle

09-21-2009, 07:43 PM

<cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>you said you have tanked all this stuff and said you have done it is RoK gear? is this gear RoK VP gear or RoK avatar gear? because if it is either of those then your tanking it with some of the higher end gear that most players cant obtain, because like you said we have to earn our spot and with the way the brawler class is you cant have that chance in getting in the raid to earn your spot because most raids dont want us. SORRY WE ARE ALL NOT LIKE YOU WITH A RAID SPOT AND THE BEST GEAR FOR THE TIER!!!! </blockquote>T2 gear > RoK gear, but if you must get technical I was wearing a EoF lvl 70 avatar crit robe which in no way helps with sirvuvability but was good for dps. Like I said most raids don't want you because you are taking a self defeating attitude. I mean seriously you complain about tanking WOE well form your own woe then and learn it. Here is a hint though, spec craneflock its not useless.

BChizzle

09-21-2009, 07:59 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Narringan@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Monks were made to be some kind of Jack-of-all-trades. I like the class like this, if your main goal is to raid, pick another class, simple as that...</blockquote>Incorrect, monks were made to be fighters aka tanks and did great at it until they took away our shields.</blockquote>Wait just a minute. I though you said monks were fine, but now I am reading this as they are less of a tank since shields have been taken away?</blockquote>There was a dip in monk tanking from lvl 50 to EoF which created this whole nonsense, SOE has taken HUGE strides in making monk tanks viable and a monk has tanked every bit of end game content since EoF launch. It's funny though that people always claim we get no attention or help even though last BETA they dedicated a huge amount of time revamping our KoS str line which is one of our best lines to choose from.

Aull

09-21-2009, 09:41 PM

Just a honest question for BChizzle and I am not trying to rip here. What area(s) other than aoe aggro would you suggest for the average monk.

Mosha D'Khan

09-22-2009, 12:34 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>you said you have tanked all this stuff and said you have done it is RoK gear? is this gear RoK VP gear or RoK avatar gear? because if it is either of those then your tanking it with some of the higher end gear that most players cant obtain, because like you said we have to earn our spot and with the way the brawler class is you cant have that chance in getting in the raid to earn your spot because most raids dont want us. SORRY WE ARE ALL NOT LIKE YOU WITH A RAID SPOT AND THE BEST GEAR FOR THE TIER!!!! </blockquote>T2 gear > RoK gear, but if you must get technical I was wearing a EoF lvl 70 avatar crit robe which in no way helps with sirvuvability but was good for dps. Like I said most raids don't want you because you are taking a self defeating attitude. I mean seriously you complain about tanking WOE well form your own woe then and learn it. Here is a hint though, spec craneflock its not useless.</blockquote>1. you where wearing a lvl 70 robe, i highly doubt you tanked an PoF zone in it because i dps in the zone with guildies and die pretty fast with my T3 chest piece..... like i said earlier i have all T3 other than my T2 shoulders and T4 bracers. my jewelry are all fabled and have 200AA. so dont know how you with your 70 lvl gear takes this stuff and highly doubt you do it unless you have so major BA healers and a dirge and corcer for major hate gain.2. you never have said anything about a bad attitude. you said i was poorly geared. and thought i expected to just have a spot. during raid that i do, do with my guild i hardly say much and just try and get my job done. the only time i will get made is if i ever pull agro and they complain about me doing so. i still cant see why i pull agro so easy with the deagro buff though aa so that is still confusing to me. but over all i dont see where you pulled that one out of. changing what you said ealier shows you are just try to prove people wrong. i am will to bet your main is a gaurd or SK and you dont want your brawler to pass him because you put so much time in your other character.3. i have yet to say something about tanking WOE. there has nothing been about tanking raids in my post. in earlier post you would have read i dont care for tanking a raid if you read my earlier post. so again i dont know where you pulled that one out of.4. craneflock is worthless for a bruiser as we have no self haste and with a delay of 2.2 sec that means i get 4 attacks off. so that is 8 hits total and with the ability it make it 16 hits (on single mob). where if i spec for chi i can cast faster and reuse things faster while i have knockout up. if you bothered to read my first post you would have know that i am a bruiser not a monk.

BChizzle

09-22-2009, 02:18 AM

<cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote><table cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td align="left" valign="top"></td> <td height="28" valign="top"><table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td width="100%"><img src="../styles/EQ2/eq2_default/images/common/icon_minipost.gif" border="0" width="12" height="9" /> 09/21/2009 20:34:16 Subject: Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />O SOMETHING WITH US </td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2"><hr /></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2"><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>you said you have tanked all this stuff and said you have done it is RoK gear? is this gear RoK VP gear or RoK avatar gear? because if it is either of those then your tanking it with some of the higher end gear that most players cant obtain, because like you said we have to earn our spot and with the way the brawler class is you cant have that chance in getting in the raid to earn your spot because most raids dont want us. SORRY WE ARE ALL NOT LIKE YOU WITH A RAID SPOT AND THE BEST GEAR FOR THE TIER!!!! </blockquote>T2 gear > RoK gear, but if you must get technical I was wearing a EoF lvl 70 avatar crit robe which in no way helps with sirvuvability but was good for dps. Like I said most raids don't want you because you are taking a self defeating attitude. I mean seriously you complain about tanking WOE well form your own woe then and learn it. Here is a hint though, spec craneflock its not useless.</blockquote>1. you where wearing a lvl 70 robe, i highly doubt you tanked an PoF zone in it because i dps in the zone with guildies and die pretty fast with my T3 chest piece..... like i said earlier i have all T3 other than my T2 shoulders and T4 bracers. my jewelry are all fabled and have 200AA. so dont know how you with your 70 lvl gear takes this stuff and highly doubt you do it unless you have so major BA healers and a dirge and corcer for major hate gain.2. you never have said anything about a bad attitude. you said i was poorly geared. and thought i expected to just have a spot. during raid that i do, do with my guild i hardly say much and just try and get my job done. the only time i will get made is if i ever pull agro and they complain about me doing so. i still cant see why i pull agro so easy with the deagro buff though aa so that is still confusing to me. but over all i dont see where you pulled that one out of. changing what you said ealier shows you are just try to prove people wrong. i am will to bet your main is a gaurd or SK and you dont want your brawler to pass him because you put so much time in your other character.3. i have yet to say something about tanking WOE. there has nothing been about tanking raids in my post. in earlier post you would have read i dont care for tanking a raid if you read my earlier post. so again i dont know where you pulled that one out of.4. craneflock is worthless for a bruiser as we have no self haste and with a delay of 2.2 sec that means i get 4 attacks off. so that is 8 hits total and with the ability it make it 16 hits (on single mob). where if i spec for chi i can cast faster and reuse things faster while i have knockout up. if you bothered to read my first post you would have know that i am a bruiser not a monk.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></blockquote>1. I was wearing the crit robe, the rest I dont care about what gear you have you obviously aren't listening so there is nothing thats going to make you better.2. My main is brawler and it is the top brawler in that game, I am all for getting brawlers buffed I however am not for this throw your hands up and cry BS that it is the end of the world and poor monks/brawlers when I know for a fact most of the complaining comes from brawlers like yourself who really just dont take the time to learn to play their class effectively.3. I was referring to the QQ brawler community in general.4. I already pointed out you should get craneflock, you like chi well get both then if you are so set on it. Also you apparently fail at making groups since you obviously lack in haste for whatever reason yet you arent adding any classes that give you haste. Here is a newsflash though, with our 2.5 delay weapons haste is rather easy to cap even for bruiser. You should still have craneflock but I seriously doubt you will listen so stay being nothing but someone to drop flags.

BChizzle

09-22-2009, 02:20 AM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just a honest question for BChizzle and I am not trying to rip here. What area(s) other than aoe aggro would you suggest for the average monk. </blockquote>I would suggest they stop crying and start doing. And stop listening to people who don't play the class telling them what their class should and shouldn't do.

Mosha D'Khan

09-22-2009, 09:20 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>1. I was wearing the crit robe, the rest I dont care about what gear you have you obviously aren't listening so there is nothing thats going to make you better.2. My main is brawler and it is the top brawler in that game, I am all for getting brawlers buffed I however am not for this throw your hands up and cry BS that it is the end of the world and poor monks/brawlers when I know for a fact most of the complaining comes from brawlers like yourself who really just dont take the time to learn to play their class effectively.3. I was referring to the QQ brawler community in general.4. I already pointed out you should get craneflock, you like chi well get both then if you are so set on it. Also you apparently fail at making groups since you obviously lack in haste for whatever reason yet you arent adding any classes that give you haste. Here is a newsflash though, with our 2.5 delay weapons haste is rather easy to cap even for bruiser. You should still have craneflock but I seriously doubt you will listen so stay being nothing but someone to drop flags.</blockquote>

Mosha D'Khan

09-22-2009, 09:27 AM

eof gear never had crit on it so how did you get crit on it?and i know the class, our suvivablity is the problem so why dont you learn the problems and play the game. i bet you are on of those that have just learned to live with it. well i am not going to just live with it. i want us to be equal with other tanks and to be the class we are suppose to be.sure you were not argueing with me about it but i dont care.and how do you think i can get both with out droping chi? if i dont drop chi i have to drop my Melee Crit which i not going to do until i get it higher (only at 76%, losing 21 Melee Crit is alittle to much for my liking). so if there is another way to get all that let me know but no matter which way you do the aa you cant get all it because of the limit.

Morghus

09-22-2009, 09:44 AM

BChizzle

09-22-2009, 10:24 AM

<cite>Morghus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually, EoF did have some rare pieces with crit. The robe they are talking about though is probably this:<img src="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/examine/-1991121125" width="280" height="450" /></blockquote>He clearly doesn't know what he is talking about, no sense spelling it out for him.

Mosha D'Khan

09-22-2009, 11:16 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Morghus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually, EoF did have some rare pieces with crit. The robe they are talking about though is probably this:<img src="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/examine/-1991121125" width="280" height="450" /></blockquote>He clearly doesn't know what he is talking about, no sense spelling it out for him.</blockquote>you dont either then, when someone now says it is a crit piece they are talking about it has +crit mit, not a proc that gives melee crit. i would say you are stuck in EoF but you cant be doing tso zones. that and the T3 chest piece is still better so still dont see how you can ever tank the zones, so either your other gear is better than you are leading us to believe or your lieing. take your poison, which is it?

Ambrin

09-22-2009, 12:10 PM

I've tanked Guk3 in T2/T3 and my T4 boots, the templar I had to heal me said I was much easier to heal than a plate tank there because by the time I was hit and his reactives went off they where already refreshed from cool down.Monks can tank, it may not be as easy on AoE fights as an SK who can roll his face across they keyboard and hold agro, but it certainly not impossible. Hell, they only time I lost agro in the ring events was when one of the DPS wasn't assisting me and ripped an add, but all I have to do to fix that is hit Hidden Opening...

BChizzle

09-22-2009, 02:40 PM

<cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>you dont either then, when someone now says it is a crit piece they are talking about it has +crit mit, not a proc that gives melee crit. i would say you are stuck in EoF but you cant be doing tso zones. that and the T3 chest piece is still better so still dont see how you can ever tank the zones, so either your other gear is better than you are leading us to believe or your lieing. take your poison, which is it?</blockquote>You really don't have a leg to stand on here, other people besides me are telling you how silly your position is. I tanked PoF without TSO gear when this expansion first came out, this was also BEFORE it was nerfed to make it easy mode, you know the easy mode you are still having difficulty with lol. There isn't really a need to lie about it I just brought it up because of your claims we need all this great TSO gear to tank things. Also, since you seem pretty new to this game you should also know T3 gear didn't exist at TSO launch it didn't come for a few months at the next LU which was delayed alot due to the tank revamp debacle so pretty much every brawler that tanked it back then probably did it in worse gear then you.

Mosha D'Khan

09-22-2009, 08:01 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>you dont either then, when someone now says it is a crit piece they are talking about it has +crit mit, not a proc that gives melee crit. i would say you are stuck in EoF but you cant be doing tso zones. that and the T3 chest piece is still better so still dont see how you can ever tank the zones, so either your other gear is better than you are leading us to believe or your lieing. take your poison, which is it?</blockquote>You really don't have a leg to stand on here, other people besides me are telling you how silly your position is. I tanked PoF without TSO gear when this expansion first came out, this was also BEFORE it was nerfed to make it easy mode, you know the easy mode you are still having difficulty with lol. There isn't really a need to lie about it I just brought it up because of your claims we need all this great TSO gear to tank things. Also, since you seem pretty new to this game you should also know T3 gear didn't exist at TSO launch it didn't come for a few months at the next LU which was delayed alot due to the tank revamp debacle so pretty much every brawler that tanked it back then probably did it in worse gear then you.</blockquote>well from what i have read the past 3 days now?... i think you the only one to argue about we can tank other than the guy that just posted above your last post. you dont have anyone claiming about tanking pof before the update and well if i am correct many raiders had a good few T4 pieces before the LU. and apperently you are not seeing what i am agrueing about i want sony to fix. that and you said pretty much every brawler has tanked it (in bold). well i dont think there is a group on my server that will ever let a brawler tank unless they have high end gear. pls read the forum again and try and see my point and if you are going to do the you said such and such pls make sure i said it noob. i never said you needed T4 gear to take PoF or do raids. i dont care about tanking a raid so count that out. and for pof if they would just make our avoidance worth **** and nerf the aviodance plate tanks get from shield avoidance they would get hit harder and it would even us out. i am just sick of getting pasted oer for another tank because they do think i can do the zone. i am sick of being passed up by others that cant hold agro better then me. we brawlers are like scouts, our mit does not even compare to scouts and our avoidance does not matter if gaurds and other plate tanks have the same amount. either make us the uber dps of fighters where the others cant come close to even scratching ours, or nerf the shields bonuses and let us be the avoidance tank we are suppose to be.on another not which of the brawlers is the aoe tank. i have heard that bruisers are but how is that. i got 2 aoes (not AA based) and both are on 30sec + timers. so how are we the aoe tanks?

BChizzle

09-22-2009, 09:40 PM

Bruisers have the highest melee aes of all tanks that is why you are considered the ae class. As far as the other stuff I really am not here to teach a bruiser how to play his class. This is the monk forum sorry maybe your bruiser friends can help you. I suggest you ask Crabbok for help he's a bruiser that does everything you cant.

Mosha D'Khan

09-23-2009, 12:26 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bruisers have the highest melee aes of all tanks that is why you are considered the ae class. As far as the other stuff I really am not here to teach a bruiser how to play his class. This is the monk forum sorry maybe your bruiser friends can help you. I suggest you ask Crabbok for help he's a bruiser that does everything you cant.</blockquote>lol your like arguing with a brick wall and nothing gets through to you does it. the second post was complaining about brawlers so may be you should complain and have sony make a brawler from for things like this. as for highest melee aes i would say zerker does, out of bruisers and monks, i might agree with the melee part but that is not what counts it is over all aes. i have asked crabbok some question (not directly but have asked and he has responded) and it did me no good what so ever. i dont need someone to teach me how to play the class, because there are 1000 ways to play the class depending on your play style. and if you cant agree with that then you are one of those high end raiders that only cares about himself and should stop posting on forums period.the overall fact is that brawlers are underpowered if you match a non raider plate tank to a non raid brawler. the thing is in duels if i dont kill you in the frist roughly 45sec to 1min you have me beat. that is tank vs tank. and that is just not right because our aviodance should make up for our lower mit which it never does.for once can you just consider what this whole post was about and think of what is best for the overall game play of tank. and pls get out of your small little world of high in raiding and think about the people who dont!!!!!

BChizzle

09-23-2009, 01:04 AM

<cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>lol your like arguing with a brick wall and nothing gets through to you does it. the second post was complaining about brawlers so may be you should complain and have sony make a brawler from for things like this. as for highest melee aes i would say zerker does, out of bruisers and monks, i might agree with the melee part but that is not what counts it is over all aes. i have asked crabbok some question (not directly but have asked and he has responded) and it did me no good what so ever. i dont need someone to teach me how to play the class, because there are 1000 ways to play the class depending on your play style. and if you cant agree with that then you are one of those high end raiders that only cares about himself and should stop posting on forums period.the overall fact is that brawlers are underpowered if you match a non raider plate tank to a non raid brawler. the thing is in duels if i dont kill you in the frist roughly 45sec to 1min you have me beat. that is tank vs tank. and that is just not right because our aviodance should make up for our lower mit which it never does.for once can you just consider what this whole post was about and think of what is best for the overall game play of tank. and pls get out of your small little world of high in raiding and think about the people who dont!!!!!</blockquote>Thank you for making it perfectly clear you that you are a bad brawler because you can't listen to advice, you pretty much proved my whole point about you with this one post. I could talk more about how so far off you are about brawlers not completely owning plate tanks in duels and how you shouldn't comment on zerk aes either since you clearly don't have a clue about that as well but I'll just end it here by laughing at your pathetic attempt to first call me a liar then now all of a sudden I am a small world high raider whats next rl examples? I mean seriously when you don't have a leg to stand on putting your foot in your mouth is a remarkable feat.

Mosha D'Khan

09-23-2009, 09:29 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>lol your like arguing with a brick wall and nothing gets through to you does it. the second post was complaining about brawlers so may be you should complain and have sony make a brawler from for things like this. as for highest melee aes i would say zerker does, out of bruisers and monks, i might agree with the melee part but that is not what counts it is over all aes. i have asked crabbok some question (not directly but have asked and he has responded) and it did me no good what so ever. i dont need someone to teach me how to play the class, because there are 1000 ways to play the class depending on your play style. and if you cant agree with that then you are one of those high end raiders that only cares about himself and should stop posting on forums period.the overall fact is that brawlers are underpowered if you match a non raider plate tank to a non raid brawler. the thing is in duels if i dont kill you in the frist roughly 45sec to 1min you have me beat. that is tank vs tank. and that is just not right because our aviodance should make up for our lower mit which it never does.for once can you just consider what this whole post was about and think of what is best for the overall game play of tank. and pls get out of your small little world of high in raiding and think about the people who dont!!!!!</blockquote>Thank you for making it perfectly clear you that you are a bad brawler because you can't listen to advice, you pretty much proved my whole point about you with this one post. I could talk more about how so far off you are about brawlers not completely owning plate tanks in duels and how you shouldn't comment on zerk aes either since you clearly don't have a clue about that as well but I'll just end it here by laughing at your pathetic attempt to first call me a liar then now all of a sudden I am a small world high raider whats next rl examples? I mean seriously when you don't have a leg to stand on putting your foot in your mouth is a remarkable feat.</blockquote>see that was my whole point of the last post you loser, you are completely just self centered and all you care about is yourself. maybe you should start a bruiser and see my point because apperently you dont know what a bruiser can do because your a monk. so unless you have a bruiser stop telling people what they can do based off a monks view. your saying that i am a bad brawler. well yeah maybe at tanking, not single mobs about aes yeah. dps i am fine, guessing your going to say something about it after it tell you that i am roughtly to 7 or 8 in my guild raids behind the assassins and wizzy, and may a illy. your going to say something like the guild raids must suck but what ever. you are a self center high end raider that does not care about others. i dont care about owning a plate tank in duels. all i care about being equal for once, if brawlers cant be a tank that can compete with gaurds then make us the dps by a landside. so bchizzle either post over the topic or dont and go back to your small little world you live in where it is all about you.

Magnis

09-23-2009, 10:41 AM

I started reading this thread because of all the good info i was finding in the earlier posts, but all that bickering is really useless and straying away from how good this thread could be.

Ambrin

09-23-2009, 12:14 PM

<cite>Magnis@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I started reading this thread because of all the good info i was finding in the earlier posts, but all that bickering is really useless and straying away from how good this thread could be. </blockquote>Unfortunately you have two people who don't seem to be the most... compromising... people ever taking up opposite view points on the class. I noticed that you are on the same server as me, if you need any help feel free to send me a tell any time and I will certainly try to help you out.As for the state of the monk class, I don't think they are as bad off as some people would have you believe, I know I have talked to a lot of people in my guild and otherwise and they really like grouping with me on my monk. I've had my fair share of people saying "Wow, I didn't know monks could tank / DPS / PvP / whatever like that" and I've had an equal number of players who wouldn't give me the time of day because I play the class I enjoy playing. Overall, I do think the monk class could use some buffs in terms of AoE agro generation and the current state of avoidance tanking (particularly strike-through) but these are easy fixes in my opinion and we are hardly [Removed for Content] who can't earn a spot in a group..

BChizzle

09-23-2009, 01:22 PM

<cite>Ambrin@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Magnis@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I started reading this thread because of all the good info i was finding in the earlier posts, but all that bickering is really useless and straying away from how good this thread could be. </blockquote>Unfortunately you have two people who don't seem to be the most... compromising... people ever taking up opposite view points on the class. I noticed that you are on the same server as me, if you need any help feel free to send me a tell any time and I will certainly try to help you out.As for the state of the monk class, I don't think they are as bad off as some people would have you believe, I know I have talked to a lot of people in my guild and otherwise and they really like grouping with me on my monk. I've had my fair share of people saying "Wow, I didn't know monks could tank / DPS / PvP / whatever like that" and I've had an equal number of players who wouldn't give me the time of day because I play the class I enjoy playing. Overall, I do think the monk class could use some buffs in terms of AoE agro generation and the current state of avoidance tanking (particularly strike-through) but these are easy fixes in my opinion and we are hardly [Removed for Content] who can't earn a spot in a group..</blockquote>Fact is you have a scrub player here complaining he can't tank and we should be buffed to be better tanks. Then he says he doesn't care about tanking so he obviously hasn't tried, now when called out on it he's crying. Go back to your bruiser forum and QQ there thx.

Mosha D'Khan

09-23-2009, 06:25 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ambrin@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Magnis@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I started reading this thread because of all the good info i was finding in the earlier posts, but all that bickering is really useless and straying away from how good this thread could be. </blockquote>Unfortunately you have two people who don't seem to be the most... compromising... people ever taking up opposite view points on the class. I noticed that you are on the same server as me, if you need any help feel free to send me a tell any time and I will certainly try to help you out.As for the state of the monk class, I don't think they are as bad off as some people would have you believe, I know I have talked to a lot of people in my guild and otherwise and they really like grouping with me on my monk. I've had my fair share of people saying "Wow, I didn't know monks could tank / DPS / PvP / whatever like that" and I've had an equal number of players who wouldn't give me the time of day because I play the class I enjoy playing. Overall, I do think the monk class could use some buffs in terms of AoE agro generation and the current state of avoidance tanking (particularly strike-through) but these are easy fixes in my opinion and we are hardly [Removed for Content] who can't earn a spot in a group..</blockquote>Fact is you have a scrub player here complaining he can't tank and we should be buffed to be better tanks. Then he says he doesn't care about tanking so he obviously hasn't tried, now when called out on it he's crying. Go back to your bruiser forum and QQ there thx.</blockquote>ARE YOU RETARTED!!!! i have never cared about tanking just wanted to be useful for once. make us one of the classes people want to group with. you never read the post and what it was about. so i am just not going to post anymore because arguing with A RETARTED is a waste of my time. but before i stop posting, put yourself in other brawlers shoes that dont raid and dont have the raid spot you do. if you where them would you be happy. and dont tell me that you would work to better youself because that would be you being full of [Removed for Content] that you have been this whole post. and even if you say that you could not better yourself because you could not get in the groups you could now. so just think about that if you can process that.

BChizzle

09-23-2009, 07:29 PM

<cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>i am just not going to post anymore</blockquote>Great, let me be the first to thank you for not posting anymore, this forum just got better by subtraction.

Caethre

09-23-2009, 09:12 PM

(( Mosha, take absolutely no notice of BChizzle, he is the Monk forum's resident troll, who takes pleasure in trying to wind up others. Take this thread for example, he has already posted 15 times on it out of 38 posts, in an attempt to ram his petty opinion down the throat of every other monk player. He does the same on every thread, and I am a little surprised Kiara has not given him a boot up the behind by now, he is certainly needing one.Ignoring the one troll and everything he says, most monk (well, brawler) players know the class is suffering a little at the moment. In monk form, I too have been refused raids and even groups just because of my class alone (and told I would be welcome as one of my other characters - it is purely a class issue). I know many others who are reporting the same thing. And indeed, most non-brawler players that I have heard comment, say the same things as well.The brawler classes are needing a bit of attention. I am not talking about the hardcore raiding minority here, I am referring to the mass of normal players - the monk can* do what any plate tank can do, but just needs to be a lot better geared to do the same thing. Same goes for DPS role vs the scout classes.SOE are not exactly fast reacting, but they are not blind either. Until then, I'll concentrate on other characters more. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ))

BChizzle

09-23-2009, 09:39 PM

<cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>(( Mosha, take absolutely no notice of BChizzle, he is the Monk forum's resident troll, who takes pleasure in trying to wind up others. Take this thread for example, he has already posted 15 times on it out of 38 posts, in an attempt to ram his petty opinion down the throat of every other monk player. He does the same on every thread, and I am a little surprised Kiara has not given him a boot up the behind by now, he is certainly needing one.Ignoring the one troll and everything he says, most monk (well, brawler) players know the class is suffering a little at the moment. In monk form, I too have been refused raids and even groups just because of my class alone (and told I would be welcome as one of my other characters - it is purely a class issue). I know many others who are reporting the same thing. And indeed, most non-brawler players that I have heard comment, say the same things as well.The brawler classes are needing a bit of attention. I am not talking about the hardcore raiding minority here, I am referring to the mass of normal players - the monk can* do what any plate tank can do, but just needs to be a lot better geared to do the same thing. Same goes for DPS role vs the scout classes.SOE are not exactly fast reacting, but they are not blind either. Until then, I'll concentrate on other characters more. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> ))</blockquote>Calling me a troll won't change the fact monks can and do tank effectively and anyone crying by saying they can't are talking pure nonsense. That is the point, and in my experience is devs are much more inclined to respond to ration thought out arguments rather then throw your hands up in the air hyperbole.

Dorieon

09-23-2009, 10:07 PM

<cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>{0}</blockquote>BChizzle isn't the only monk that tanked PoF before it was nerfed. I did it as well and I did it with just the T2 shoulders and RoK gear. Bchizzle's guild kills avatars mine barely cleared VP before TSO so there is a bit of a gear difference there. It is completely possible to tank PoF in T2 gear btw and easy to do it in T3. Guk3 may be a little harder for a brawler that is not accustomed to tab fighting for agro but its easily doable as well.The problem with brawlers is that so many of us don't really know how to gear for tanking or dps or both(well that and there are a lot of crappy brawlers giving decent ones a bad name). Learn to take a hit on your crit or DA for better tank stats (ones that actually matter) and you can tank anything in the game. I am not the best geared monk on my server but I am one of if not the first to get asked to tank 'hard' pug groups or WoE/KT x2.As far as dpsing. I am also one of the highest dps in my guild's raids (when I'm not tanking...and if I am MTing my dps is higher than when I OT btw). Even as a bruiser, Craneflock will help your ae agro and you don't have to lose your crits to get it (drop agi line instead if crits are that big a deal).The problem with Bchizzle is he is actually right but he is a tad abrasive because people do whine too much. Maybe try his and others advice before getting totally defensive and arguing.

Timaarit

09-24-2009, 04:18 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Funny I hit craneflock and I have fine ae dps. As far as far as top items for this tier goes I call BS since I tanked every instance in this tier in RoK gear. But hey way to make your argument that ae tank classes hold ae agro better to a single target tank.</blockquote>Ooh, so you hit Craneflock and have fine AE dps!! Know what, I dont even have to hit any special abilities to have better AE dps on my zerker than what I have on my monk. On the other hand, when I hit Open Wounds on my zerker... now if you dont have a zerker, you propably dont even want to know.

BChizzle

09-24-2009, 06:43 AM

<cite>Timaarit wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Funny I hit craneflock and I have fine ae dps. As far as far as top items for this tier goes I call BS since I tanked every instance in this tier in RoK gear. But hey way to make your argument that ae tank classes hold ae agro better to a single target tank.</blockquote>Ooh, so you hit Craneflock and have fine AE dps!! Know what, I dont even have to hit any special abilities to have better AE dps on my zerker than what I have on my monk. On the other hand, when I hit Open Wounds on my zerker... now if you dont have a zerker, you propably dont even want to know.</blockquote>You are comparing an AE tank to a single target one. Its like a zerk complaining about the monk generating higher single target agro.

Cusashorn

09-24-2009, 10:53 AM

All tanking issues aside (which I think we really do need to be seriously overpowered to make up for everything), One of the biggest issues that has plagued the class since Launch is that the mindset of the population in general says that we arn't as good as any other classes.Most players in this game only want what is best. They only want the best gear, the best weapons, the best spell qualities, the best abilities that make the game easier to play.Sadly, this means that they will always think of a plate tank to actually tank, and they will always take a scout to do DPS. SoE isn't helping any in this regard by not giving us any true definition as a class, and constantly ignoring our pleas.I think our class needs to be overpowered compaired to the others. I really mean it. For the sake of balance among the tank classes, the only way to balance us is to overpower us. Think of it as a scale. On one side of the scale, we have 4 50 pound weights that represent the Gaurdian, Paladin, Berzerker, and Shadowknight. On the other side, we have the Monk and Bruiser represented by 2 50 pound weights. If you were to weigh these classes, the 4 would obviously be heavier (thus, stronger) than the 2. In order to balance them out, there would need to be significant weight added to the 2 brawler classes to even them out with the other 4. Those two 50 pound weights would need to be changed to 100 pound weights to even things out. I use "Weight" as a metaphore for class strength. The only way to balance us out is to give us so much that it won't be fair to the others.That's my feelings on the issue. The point is that SoE needs to convince the player base as a whole that our class can do anything just as good as the other tank classes, and they need to show proof of such. SoE says that we can do anything just as good as any other, but they don't do anything to support that claim. They say that if a raid guild has the mindset that they absolutely need to have a plate tank as their main tank, then their way of thinking is wrong. It's a Public Relations issue.

Siatfallen

09-24-2009, 02:45 PM

Arguing that there's a lot of bad brawlers around is a rather flighty argument - what do you support it with, to make brawlers lower-than-average skilled players? Skimpy clothing attracting a cyber-crowd? I would have agreed (regrettably - AB player here) up until they gave everyone gis, making this argument pretty much moot since RoK launch.Higher soloability leading to lower group experience? We're not the strongest solo fighters anymore. Shiny farmers? Rarely see those in group anyway.Rather than arguing that we're worse players, I'd say we're categorically confused (pardon the pun); our class has been changing definition in the game as the wind has been blowing. Players, myself included, are sometimes really slow to adjust. When I started raiding (KoS) I was told rather directly that what I needed to watch was the parse. Brawlers were a DPS class, end of story.This lasted until around the end of where we got to in RoK (and instanced content on farm status for months on end, no serious attention given to contested content).In tSO, it felt very much as if the developers up and decided that was no longer going to be viable - so they nerfed that aspect of the class and gave us more tanking tools instead.With the release of DoF, from my understanding, they did much the same.With LU1, they did, again, pretty much the same.With the release of the game as compared to eq1, again, the brawler (vs eq1 monk) was fundamentally changed.This is the problem with brawlers, and this is why the class has a bad name; some players pick up quickly and accept new roles. Some don't, mope about them for years, and give the class a bad name. I'm currently enjoying that particular solution greatly myself, because this is not the class I signed on to play, whatever relevance or merit it may now have. The fault in this? Bad development decisions based on lack of vision for the class.I'd be happy arguing what I think would be a fun brawler class - but that's not the point here. I don't think it's even possible to argue what the class should be come next expansion. It certainly does not feel as if the developers know.Claiming to be "one of the highest DPSers" on a raid is all good and well, and I could say much the same in RoK. If you're seriously saying you raid higher-end tSO content and land in the top 4-5 of the parse on a regular basis... Please show me zonewide parses? I've been gone from the game since SF went on hiatus and don't much like the idea of spread misinformation when I do post here now and then - but I do not much trust claims without documentation here either.Also, if we are to ignore BChizzle, feel free to ignore Felishanna as well; she's the resident "holier than thou" type troll on the forums. I like both, really, but take what they say with a bucket-load of salt. If anyone wonders why they've yet to be banned, I'm guessing it's because they often make sensible points - although they do have a way of doing it that tends to offend people.Finally, Cusashorn: Brawlers need to be overpowered to be balanced? Look up the words - you'll realise they're mutually exclusive pretty quickly. Brawlers are fewer in number and have exclusive (and hence comparatively rare) loot because we're the only leather-wearing fighters, and this is a problem, you're correct.Two obvious solutions: Either, universalize gear (deflection chance = block chance etc) which will be hard with leather vs. plate armor.Or: Make sure brawlers do something that plate tanks do not. So a specialisation argument, I could follow to some extent - though I'll dread seeing the class changed again to achieve it.

Feyero

09-24-2009, 02:59 PM

<cite>Dorieon@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>{0}</blockquote>BChizzle isn't the only monk that tanked PoF before it was nerfed. I did it as well and I did it with just the T2 shoulders and RoK gear. Bchizzle's guild kills avatars mine barely cleared VP before TSO so there is a bit of a gear difference there. It is completely possible to tank PoF in T2 gear btw and easy to do it in T3. Guk3 may be a little harder for a brawler that is not accustomed to tab fighting for agro but its easily doable as well.The problem with brawlers is that so many of us don't really know how to gear for tanking or dps or both(well that and there are a lot of crappy brawlers giving decent ones a bad name). Learn to take a hit on your crit or DA for better tank stats (ones that actually matter) and you can tank anything in the game. I am not the best geared monk on my server but I am one of if not the first to get asked to tank 'hard' pug groups or WoE/KT x2.As far as dpsing. I am also one of the highest dps in my guild's raids (when I'm not tanking...and if I am MTing my dps is higher than when I OT btw). Even as a bruiser, Craneflock will help your ae agro and you don't have to lose your crits to get it (drop agi line instead if crits are that big a deal).The problem with Bchizzle is he is actually right but he is a tad abrasive because people do whine too much. Maybe try his and others advice before getting totally defensive and arguing.</blockquote>Can you elaborate on what you've said about taking a hit to your crit or DA for better tank stats. What tank stats actually do matter? There are a lot of different ones, and it might be helpful to know which mean more than others. (deflection/defense/parry/riposite/crit mit/etc)For tank gear, what are the most important stats and what should we be looking for?

Ambrin

09-24-2009, 04:34 PM

I like the defensive stats like +defense, +parry, +deflection because they help me take (or avoid) hits on higher level mobs. Other than that +mitigation and physical resists is nice because it helps us take hits. Getting into T3 or better is huge though, simply because if you want to tank effectively you need critical mitigation.

jrolla777

09-24-2009, 05:32 PM

Dont worry about +deflection, parry or defense too much, these bonus' will come easily from group buffs and brawler specific loot. +skill points are your contested avoidance, even though they do help on debuffed hard mobs, they are drastically inferior to uncontested avoidance.The stats a brawler wants are "deflection chance", x% avoidance increases (like %parry, %dodge, etc), +x mitigation increases and +x% mitigation increases (not specifically in that order).<cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>RETARTED!!!!</blockquote>irony?

BChizzle

09-24-2009, 09:42 PM

BChizzle

09-24-2009, 09:57 PM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>All tanking issues aside (which I think we really do need to be seriously overpowered to make up for everything), One of the biggest issues that has plagued the class since Launch is that the mindset of the population in general says that we arn't as good as any other classes.Most players in this game only want what is best. They only want the best gear, the best weapons, the best spell qualities, the best abilities that make the game easier to play.Sadly, this means that they will always think of a plate tank to actually tank, and they will always take a scout to do DPS. SoE isn't helping any in this regard by not giving us any true definition as a class, and constantly ignoring our pleas.I think our class needs to be overpowered compaired to the others. I really mean it. For the sake of balance among the tank classes, the only way to balance us is to overpower us. Think of it as a scale. On one side of the scale, we have 4 50 pound weights that represent the Gaurdian, Paladin, Berzerker, and Shadowknight. On the other side, we have the Monk and Bruiser represented by 2 50 pound weights. If you were to weigh these classes, the 4 would obviously be heavier (thus, stronger) than the 2. In order to balance them out, there would need to be significant weight added to the 2 brawler classes to even them out with the other 4. Those two 50 pound weights would need to be changed to 100 pound weights to even things out. I use "Weight" as a metaphore for class strength. The only way to balance us out is to give us so much that it won't be fair to the others.That's my feelings on the issue. The point is that SoE needs to convince the player base as a whole that our class can do anything just as good as the other tank classes, and they need to show proof of such. SoE says that we can do anything just as good as any other, but they don't do anything to support that claim. They say that if a raid guild has the mindset that they absolutely need to have a plate tank as their main tank, then their way of thinking is wrong. It's a Public Relations issue.</blockquote>While I'd love to be OP that just creates the same issue for other tanks. A better solution is to take what makes the current best tank (SK) work and have that level across the board for all tanks.

Dorieon

09-25-2009, 01:49 AM

<cite>Siatfallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Arguing that there's a lot of bad brawlers around is a rather flighty argument - what do you support it with, to make brawlers lower-than-average skilled players? Skimpy clothing attracting a cyber-crowd? I would have agreed (regrettably - AB player here) up until they gave everyone gis, making this argument pretty much moot since RoK launch.Higher soloability leading to lower group experience? We're not the strongest solo fighters anymore. Shiny farmers? Rarely see those in group anyway.Rather than arguing that we're worse players, I'd say we're categorically confused (pardon the pun); our class has been changing definition in the game as the wind has been blowing. Players, myself included, are sometimes really slow to adjust.</blockquote>I see your point. There are alot of bad players of all classes tbh. What I meant is that alot of people roll brawlers as alts for the 'shiny farming' or 'dps' and then because they are alts and don't get the attention given to a main they are normally not as well played so don't dps or tank as well. When a brawler who normally is only dps tries to tank and isn't successful they always blame the game instead of themselves for not having tank gear or not having the experience.If it helps, there alot of good brawlers out there too.

Mosha D'Khan

09-25-2009, 01:50 AM

<cite>Nancy@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dont worry about +deflection, parry or defense too much, these bonus' will come easily from group buffs and brawler specific loot. +skill points are your contested avoidance, even though they do help on debuffed hard mobs, they are drastically inferior to uncontested avoidance.The stats a brawler wants are "deflection chance", x% avoidance increases (like %parry, %dodge, etc), +x mitigation increases and +x% mitigation increases (not specifically in that order).<cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>RETARTED!!!!</blockquote>irony?</blockquote>just a little post about the deflection chance. i got 2% deflection change out of the new racial changes and guess how much it boosted my avoidances?.... a HUGE amount of .5%...... if you think that that will help you are retarted like i said and you completly worded my quotes meaning. was not calling the tanking stuff retarted but bchizzle. and if 2% only did that well then i hope they nerf the shield blocking crap because there 15% gives them a hell of alot more than my HUGE 2%.just saying

Dorieon

09-25-2009, 01:53 AM

BChizzle

09-25-2009, 02:09 AM

<cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>just a little post about the deflection chance. i got 2% deflection change out of the new racial changes and guess how much it boosted my avoidances?.... a HUGE amount of .5%...... if you think that that will help you are retarted like i said and you completly worded my quotes meaning. was not calling the tanking stuff retarted but bchizzle. and if 2% only did that well then i hope they nerf the shield blocking crap because there 15% gives them a hell of alot more than my HUGE 2%.just saying</blockquote>Calling names isn't going to help you here. I thought you were going to stop posting anyways? Anyow thanks again for showing you don't have a clue in this post. I think I know your angle now, you are here for comedic value right? You should have choosen a troub or dirge as your class to play they make much better jesters.

Mosha D'Khan

09-25-2009, 06:44 AM

<cite>Dorieon@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nancy@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dont worry about +deflection, parry or defense too much, these bonus' will come easily from group buffs and brawler specific loot. +skill points are your contested avoidance, even though they do help on debuffed hard mobs, they are drastically inferior to uncontested avoidance.The stats a brawler wants are "deflection chance", x% avoidance increases (like %parry, %dodge, etc), +x mitigation increases and +x% mitigation increases (not specifically in that order). </blockquote>This is pretty much exactly what I meant by tank stats that actually matter.All the +defense/deflect/parry stuff is nice but uncontested avoidance and +mit gear trump it handily.</blockquote>but is deflection chance contested or uncontested? if it is contested then your saying that we sould not get it and go after something else before it, but your saying that we should get it so is it uncontested then..... i am alittle confused there. your talking as if it is both.

Mosha D'Khan

09-25-2009, 06:47 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>just a little post about the deflection chance. i got 2% deflection change out of the new racial changes and guess how much it boosted my avoidances?.... a HUGE amount of .5%...... if you think that that will help you are retarted like i said and you completly worded my quotes meaning. was not calling the tanking stuff retarted but bchizzle. and if 2% only did that well then i hope they nerf the shield blocking crap because there 15% gives them a hell of alot more than my HUGE 2%.just saying</blockquote>Calling names isn't going to help you here. I thought you were going to stop posting anyways? Anyow thanks again for showing you don't have a clue in this post. I think I know your angle now, you are here for comedic value right? You should have choosen a troub or dirge as your class to play they make much better jesters.</blockquote>/IGNOREING THE IDIOT (would not let me put re-ta-rd, but one word)

Fluffypaws

09-25-2009, 07:48 AM

IGNOREING eh

Aull

09-25-2009, 10:50 AM

<cite>Dorieon@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siatfallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Arguing that there's a lot of bad brawlers around is a rather flighty argument - what do you support it with, to make brawlers lower-than-average skilled players? Skimpy clothing attracting a cyber-crowd? I would have agreed (regrettably - AB player here) up until they gave everyone gis, making this argument pretty much moot since RoK launch.Higher soloability leading to lower group experience? We're not the strongest solo fighters anymore. Shiny farmers? Rarely see those in group anyway.Rather than arguing that we're worse players, I'd say we're categorically confused (pardon the pun); our class has been changing definition in the game as the wind has been blowing. Players, myself included, are sometimes really slow to adjust.</blockquote>I see your point. There are alot of bad players of all classes tbh. What I meant is that alot of people roll brawlers as alts for the 'shiny farming' or 'dps' and then because they are alts and don't get the attention given to a main they are normally not as well played so don't dps or tank as well. When a brawler who normally is only dps tries to tank and isn't successful they always blame the game instead of themselves for not having tank gear or not having the experience.If it helps, there alot of good brawlers out there too.</blockquote>Good post. I feel most of the issue lies in the fact that most brawler are dps gearing/speccing and when they do need to tank they cannot. Honestly brawlers first call to duty is to be a tank and dps is secondary. While brawlers can gear and spec for just dps and do fairly well that is something that sk's, zerkers, and any other fighter can do also.

BChizzle

09-25-2009, 12:46 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>Good post. I feel most of the issue lies in the fact that most brawler are dps gearing/speccing and when they do need to tank they cannot. Honestly brawlers first call to duty is to be a tank and dps is secondary. While brawlers can gear and spec for just dps and do fairly well that is something that sk's, zerkers, and any other fighter can do also.</blockquote>Other tanks can't touch us on dps though. Pretty much you have to have a huge number of adds for an AE tank to even come close to us, while the rest of the single target tanks don't even come close. So while we might have to sacrifice some offensive stats to become more effective at tanking, plate tanks sacrifice defensive stats to become more effective at dps, its just to ends of the spectrum. A perfect example of this is the start of the expansion I was all defensive gear while my plate tanks were gearing more offense, dps was close with me just beating them out, soon as I started adding offensive gear they can't touch me anymore when it comes to pure dps mode, I however can throw on my defensive stuff and be just as effective of a tank.

BChizzle

09-25-2009, 12:47 PM

<cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>/IGNOREING THE IDIOT (would not let me put re-ta-rd, but one word)</blockquote>I am not the one who can't figure our how deflection chance works.

Aull

09-25-2009, 02:50 PM

I was trying to imply that even plate tanks that gear/spec for strictly dps concerns will not tank as effectively either. I remember sk's that where so focused on gearing/ speccing for dps that when it was time to actually do what they are intended to do and be a tank they failed horrendously. The same happens to brawlers daily.

Moiya

09-25-2009, 06:13 PM

Half the reason most grps or raids don't wanna have the brawlers in grps with them is because they have either had a brawler that couldn't play their toon properly in grp b4 and sucked at it OR and this is the main reason they have HEARD all the people saying about how we suck including the people who play the brawlers saying that. Yeah OK we may not be as great as some classes but we do still have some good uses and yes while I would like to see something more done with our classes to make us one or the other I don't sit around wondering and complaining about I get out there and keep doing wat I do best and thats going in there and beating the crap out of the mobs and bosses lol and I still manage to get in raids etc in fact I'm still wanted more than most pallys, berserkers etc and its because I go in there and just do my hardest.So stop complaining and just start trying to help each other more with wat specs are better etc and wat gear could benefit better etc and I'm talking about all gear not just raiding gear, so come on everyone show the brawlers you have some love instead of always asking everyone else to show you some love

Setsuka

09-26-2009, 05:03 AM

Honestly, I like the role that we have now and do not think it should be changed. The biggest reason I have enjoyed playing the Monk class is that we are able to DPS well and tank well. I don't mind being a little bit of an underdog classwise as long as we are able to keep what we are now. But I do agree that we do need a little upgrading, but nothing so drastic as to be overpowered as some have said or to be all tank or all dps as others have said. I have tried pure dps classes and pure tank classes and neither of them are very exciting to me, which is what drew me into the monk class in the first place, you can do both fairly well. I personally think that some of the AAs that we've gotten were a step in the right direction. Removing the stun from Iron Stance was very helpful in eliminating some of the mitigation problems we've been experiencing in the past, and our two final abilities have helped out with some hate issues as well as giving us a handy second avoidance buff when we need it. Personally, I was kind of disappointed that some of the proposed Brawler/Monk changes were not implemented since the fighter revamp never went live. I think the 40% heal from Meditative healing would have done a lot for the occasional problems we have with spike damage and I think that Crane Twirl needs to be upgraded into something more than it is now. Really, having more damage and an increased proc chance from it or changing it to a good chance of having our auto attack effect multiple targets would solve most of the problems we have with multiple mob encounters. These things would make us more desirable to have around as tanks or as dps in groups. But I really don't think we are in quite that dire straits that some think we are. Overall a couple of upgrades in the aoe dps department and a couple of ways to compensate for taking damage and we should be fine.

Dorieon

09-26-2009, 09:02 AM

<cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>just a little post about the deflection chance. i got 2% deflection change out of the new racial changes and guess how much it boosted my avoidances?.... a HUGE amount of .5%...... if you think that that will help you are retarted like i said and you completly worded my quotes meaning. was not calling the tanking stuff retarted but bchizzle. and if 2% only did that well then i hope they nerf the shield blocking crap because there 15% gives them a hell of alot more than my HUGE 2%.just saying</blockquote>Ok, because no one has ever explained this to you (and yet you still talk like you know).Deflection and Deflection Chance are totally different skills. Yes they both work off of the deflection skill but deflection is a flat increase, it says +5 you get +5....normal avoidance. All that avoidance is great until you fight a mob over level 80 (or whatever lvl you may be). Its normally fine for herioc content, but if you think it doesn't help on level 85+ mobs you are wrong.After that it diminishes and the only avoidance that matters is +deflection/parry/riposte CHANCE. The chance part of that statement means that it is included even against mobs higher level than you (whether you are are 50 or 80) thats why it is better.No it will not give you a huge boost in your avoid window (unless your avoid is already really low) but it does increase total avoidance against higher level mobs, which will make you a better tank in this expansion.PS. Would I totally blow your mind if I told you there was Deflection, Deflection Chance and Minimum Deflection Chance?

Mosha D'Khan

09-27-2009, 01:35 AM

<cite>Dorieon@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>just a little post about the deflection chance. i got 2% deflection change out of the new racial changes and guess how much it boosted my avoidances?.... a HUGE amount of .5%...... if you think that that will help you are retarted like i said and you completly worded my quotes meaning. was not calling the tanking stuff retarted but bchizzle. and if 2% only did that well then i hope they nerf the shield blocking crap because there 15% gives them a hell of alot more than my HUGE 2%.just saying</blockquote>Ok, because no one has ever explained this to you (and yet you still talk like you know).Deflection and Deflection Chance are totally different skills. Yes they both work off of the deflection skill but deflection is a flat increase, it says +5 you get +5....normal avoidance. All that avoidance is great until you fight a mob over level 80 (or whatever lvl you may be). Its normally fine for herioc content, but if you think it doesn't help on level 85+ mobs you are wrong.After that it diminishes and the only avoidance that matters is +deflection/parry/riposte CHANCE. The chance part of that statement means that it is included even against mobs higher level than you (whether you are are 50 or 80) thats why it is better.No it will not give you a huge boost in your avoid window (unless your avoid is already really low) but it does increase total avoidance against higher level mobs, which will make you a better tank in this expansion.PS. Would I totally blow your mind if I told you there was Deflection, Deflection Chance and Minimum Deflection Chance?</blockquote>so it is still contested? in which case like everyone is telling me (because i am a noob apperently) is not worth getting it. so if that is so then why are you all wanting it? your telling me i dont know what i am talking about but you all are saying 1 thing and doing another. so which is it?

lavrence

09-27-2009, 04:31 AM

<cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>so it is still contested? in which case like everyone is telling me (because i am a noob apperently) is not worth getting it. so if that is so then why are you all wanting it? your telling me i dont know what i am talking about but you all are saying 1 thing and doing another. so which is it?</blockquote>Mosha do u even no the difference between contested and uncontested avoidance?Im not a expert on this or anything butcontested checks mobs level, IE deflection skill gives a diminished return on mobs greater than your current level.uncontested avoidance does not check agained the mobs level. Knowing that figure out if deflection chance (and riposte chance parry chance and the like) are uncontested.which if you would have accually read what dorieon wrote you would have pulled that information out of it.

Feyero

09-27-2009, 02:21 PM

Whoever said that monks aren't desired because there are so many people out there who are undergeared or don't know how to play the class makes a good point.There are definitely a lot of monk alts out there and just bad monks who don't get it. But its like that with any class, however I guess there are more of them playing monks since we are a trickery class to play and you have to actually be really good at what you do to be a monk. I've worked incredibly hard this year gearing up---getting my fabled epic, then my mythical, getting shard gear, my TSO chapter quests, etc. I recently did a ton of research and reorganized all of my AA's into a tank spec and DPS spec. And I consider myself a highly effective tank. I get compliments from group mates after we run a zone at how good I was tanking. People are surprised when they see a really good monk. I went on a x4 raid the other night and ended up parsing 7th overall in DPS, which I think is pretty [Removed for Content] good for a monk out of 24 people.I think the main problem we have is AE aggro control. We simply need one more AE taunt. I keep AE aggro decently, but nowhere near as well as other tanks.The other problem with monks is that we have low mitigation to begin with, so until we've really geared up we are not very effective tanks. Even after we're geared up, our mitigation won't be nearly as high as a plate tank. Having our mythical raise our mit to rival chain is great, but I think we need more little boosts like that. Why not have some armor set bonuses give us +mit? Or just having select armor pieces that give +mit.I'm not asking to make us overpowered, I just want the gap between us and plate tanks closed a little bit.

lavrence

09-27-2009, 02:37 PM

FYI the t3 lava boots do give +mit, i wear them every once in a while but over all they are still not worthwhile

Siatfallen

09-27-2009, 02:55 PM

<cite>lavrence wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>so it is still contested? in which case like everyone is telling me (because i am a noob apperently) is not worth getting it. so if that is so then why are you all wanting it? your telling me i dont know what i am talking about but you all are saying 1 thing and doing another. so which is it?</blockquote>Mosha do u even no the difference between contested and uncontested avoidance?Im not a expert on this or anything butcontested checks mobs level, IE deflection skill gives a diminished return on mobs greater than your current level.uncontested avoidance does not check agained the mobs level. Knowing that figure out if deflection chance (and riposte chance parry chance and the like) are uncontested.which if you would have accually read what dorieon wrote you would have pulled that information out of it.</blockquote>Okay, this is just getting more confusing by the minute. Here's the mechanics of deflection, minimum deflection and deflection chance:Deflection is a defensive skill more or less like parry, defense, block and riposte. Only brawlers have it, and only brawlers will see any benefit from it.Minimum deflection is uncontested avoidance. Minimum deflection does not add to deflection, but replaces contested avoidance with uncontested - the formulation on our balanced and defensive stances are different, but it's basically the same there.Deflection Chance increases deflection AND minimum deflection by a percentage.Let's say you have 10% minimum deflection, 50% deflection and 0% minimum deflection. You now equip an item giving you 10% minimum deflection. As a result, you will now have 11% minimum deflection and 55% deflection.That, in a nutshell, is how these three forms of deflection work. Unless it's been so long since I bothered to log into my mon that I've gone and messed it up - and I doubt it.

Queen Alexandria

09-29-2009, 02:45 PM

I want brawlers to be buffed so i can hit autoattack, qeue a couple of skills, walk away and make a sandwich and come back in time for the death blow so i can rinse and repeat.This way I can do instance groups, tank raids and get my daily chores out of the way.Whats the point of a single target tank when all the stuff we fight is multiple targets? Does a group seriously want me to go in and maticulately pull encounters one by one and not be able to manage when an extra encounter adds?I did guk the other night and quickly realized i couldnt hold agro vs encounters unless I waited for crane flock (which only hits 4 targets max), and have a dirge/coercer in the group for hate transfer. But that has to do with group composition. Just like other classes we need certain ones to help us accomplish our goal.If you have a dirge and coercer both at the same time with a solid healer you can take on pretty much anything. Sometimes full on defensive is not the way for us to go... its a mixture of both that allows us to hold agro and effectively kill stuff faster (thanks BChizzle on that). I found the most effective is what boosts uncontested avoidance. Adding adornments to weapons with 3% to riposte, adornments to wrists for 3%, and ward items like the Ring off Byzola, Ring from Evernight Abbey, Wrist from Xebnok and a ward belt from either Kurns Tower x2, Frenzied Ghoul from Guk etc is a good combination of items to wear when tanking either solo or in a group. Parry food and drink are good to have as well.The rest of my gear is full on offensive since killing stuff faster in turn makes the battle end quickly.

Morrolan V

09-29-2009, 04:51 PM

<cite>Siatfallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>lavrence wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>so it is still contested? in which case like everyone is telling me (because i am a noob apperently) is not worth getting it. so if that is so then why are you all wanting it? your telling me i dont know what i am talking about but you all are saying 1 thing and doing another. so which is it?</blockquote>Mosha do u even no the difference between contested and uncontested avoidance?Im not a expert on this or anything butcontested checks mobs level, IE deflection skill gives a diminished return on mobs greater than your current level.uncontested avoidance does not check agained the mobs level. Knowing that figure out if deflection chance (and riposte chance parry chance and the like) are uncontested.which if you would have accually read what dorieon wrote you would have pulled that information out of it.</blockquote>Okay, this is just getting more confusing by the minute. Here's the mechanics of deflection, minimum deflection and deflection chance:Deflection is a defensive skill more or less like parry, defense, block and riposte. Only brawlers have it, and only brawlers will see any benefit from it.Minimum deflection is uncontested avoidance. Minimum deflection does not add to deflection, but replaces contested avoidance with uncontested - the formulation on our balanced and defensive stances are different, but it's basically the same there.Deflection Chance increases deflection AND minimum deflection by a percentage.Let's say you have 10% minimum deflection, 50% deflection and 0 + Deflection Chance. You now equip an item giving you +10 Deflection Chance. As a result, you will now have 11% minimum deflection and 55% deflection.That, in a nutshell, is how these three forms of deflection work. Unless it's been so long since I bothered to log into my mon that I've gone and messed it up - and I doubt it.</blockquote>Fixed it for you, Siat.The bottom line is that you can (almost) completely ignore everything except minimum deflection and uncontested avoidance items for raid tanking. Over time, your ACT avoidance report when tanking raid mobs will show that actual avoidance on your own (e.g. not including another fighter's avoidance checks, shield ally, stone skin) will = minimum deflection + (total of all % riposte and parry items) + a very small amount (under 5%) for all contested avoidance.

BChizzle

09-29-2009, 05:39 PM

<cite>Rythalian@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fixed it for you, Siat.The bottom line is that you can (almost) completely ignore everything except minimum deflection and uncontested avoidance items for raid tanking. Over time, your ACT avoidance report when tanking raid mobs will show that actual avoidance on your own (e.g. not including another fighter's avoidance checks, shield ally, stone skin) will = minimum deflection + (total of all % riposte and parry items) + a very small amount (under 5%) for all contested avoidance.</blockquote>That is incorrect. Contested avoidance is worth more then 5%, fight a non TSO raid mob, one that doesn't strikethrough and you will see that it matters alot.EDIT: Or tank in offensive stance.

Morrolan V

09-29-2009, 08:27 PM

I was only talking about things where it matters - TSO raid names. I have lots and lots of parse data to back up my statements above, as regards x4 raid bosses in TSO.

BChizzle

09-29-2009, 08:50 PM

<cite>Rythalian@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was only talking about things where it matters - TSO raid names. I have lots and lots of parse data to back up my statements above, as regards x4 raid bosses in TSO.</blockquote>You dont get it. Strikethrough makes your avoid as displayed in ACT look stupid on TSO raidmobs making your believe contested avoidance is worthless, like I said it is very valuable, tank in offensive you will still avoid 30-40% on a TSO raid mob instead of 60-70% which should show you it is important.

Morrolan V

09-30-2009, 02:59 AM

Yep. If you are tanking in offensive, and are specced right, you still have at least 7-10% minimum deflection. You also likely have some riposte or parry adornments and perhaps parry food and drink, plus you will likely be hitting tsunami frequently, all of which is uncontested. That, plus a minimal amount of avoids coming from your contested avoidance checks could easily get you to 30-40%.I never said uncontested avoidance is worthless -- those are your words. It's not worthless. However, 1 point of uncontested avoidance is worth ~5-7 points of contested. I have never seen uncontested avoidance itself account for more than 10-12% avoidance against a tough TSO raid name. Usually it's closer to 5-7%. That's with my avoidance displaying at over 22K.

Prestissimo

09-30-2009, 07:04 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You guys need to stop crying and make something of yourselves. We dps more then any other tank and can tank anything. I don't know why you would expect to just hop in a raid without the proper amount of crit mit and expect to MT against probably well established tanks who were already in the guild ahead of you. It is just rediculous to think so, earn your spot gear up CORRECTLY and you will be doing excellent dps and able to tank anything. Most of the problem we have is people saying outlandish things like "We don't do 25% of wizard dps" people read that crap and then you expect to get invited to groups, good luck with that.</blockquote>I actually have to agree to a degree with this perspective because personally I run with a particular brawler tank any chance I get not because he has T4/etc/etc w/e mad phat lewtz, but because he knows what he's doing more so than alot of tanks that are far better geared. He sets up with a group that is made with the consideration that he'll need more wards and restoration healing than other tanks would, and sets up with more attack speed since he's a bruiser, and sets up the dps to play in conjunction with him. He obviously had to work at all this, but he achieved his guild MT possition back in the very end of KoS and early part of RoK. He's not the only one I've run with either that knows what he's doing. There are about 5 brawler tanks I run with frequently on my wizzy, warden, and soon troub as well, so it's not like it's as impossible as brawler tanking is being made out to be. Granted it is more difficult than plate tanks (guardians in TSO probably don't have it that much easier) but it's by no means impossible, and if anything it should motivate you to show people wrong and prove that as a brawler you can be a good tank just in a different way.Playing my paladin tank often times nets me those awesome stereotypes of "afk easymode tank" and other garbage like that. It doesn't discourage me from playing him because I know what I have to do to keep agro against multiple dpsers is way above and beyond the call for the other plate tanks, and for those that don't know it is freaking rediculous how hard it is. Much harder than playing my monk as a tank ever was because unlike multi-mob tanking with a brawler, people expect you to have solid hate 24/7 as a plate tank even in a situation where you physically will not have the hate required because of their actions and by no fault of your own. As a paladin if there are 2 dpsers ping-ponging the parse, you might as well just /quit and save yourself the large number of deaths and the killer migraine that you will garunteed have by the end of it. Despite that though, I still welcome the challenge, because overcoming that type of obstical is what makes you a better player and better tank.On a somewhat more pessimistic note, at least you remain broken and can count on nothing changing much. As a paladin, each and every game update I have to remove the nerf bat from my butt and figure out whats changed so that I can relearn how to tank with my class. Despite how rational, logical, and well thought out the paladin complaints about horribly underpowered abilities such as stonewall are, SOE refuses to acknowledge them and remains steadfast with their infatuation for nerfing paladins.Also, at least you can use stoneskins and other such abilities to counter large haymaker shots against you or to avoid damage. The paladins can only bolster their life and mitigation more and if it's not enough hp to take the hit or enough heals to take the shots, our only real form of recourse is to accept it and bend over for the big ones.In conclusion, you shouldn't look at what you don't have, you should look at what you DO have, and try to work with that because doing something will earn you alot more than doing nothing and whining about it, especially considering standing track records and the yearly refreshed resolution to listen to and not ignore the playerbase.

BChizzle

09-30-2009, 04:16 PM

<cite>Rythalian@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yep. If you are tanking in offensive, and are specced right, you still have at least 7-10% minimum deflection. You also likely have some riposte or parry adornments and perhaps parry food and drink, plus you will likely be hitting tsunami frequently, all of which is uncontested. That, plus a minimal amount of avoids coming from your contested avoidance checks could easily get you to 30-40%.I never said uncontested avoidance is worthless -- those are your words. It's not worthless. However, 1 point of uncontested avoidance is worth ~5-7 points of contested. I have never seen uncontested avoidance itself account for more than 10-12% avoidance against a tough TSO raid name. Usually it's closer to 5-7%. That's with my avoidance displaying at over 22K.</blockquote>Wrong if you are going all out offensive you are using +CA adorns. Also stop making stuff up, ACT does not tell you if an avoid that was made was done so as a contested or uncontested avoid so you have no clue what you are talking about. The best way to see contested avoidance is to drop all of your uncontested and tank with that and compare, something you clearly have not done as evidence of your posting. You aren't qualified to make the statements you are making. Very simply contested avoid works great and people who say it doesn't haven't done the testing, you claim to have "lots and lots of parse data to back up my statements" well show us this parse data since I know for a fact it doesn't exist.

Morrolan V

09-30-2009, 04:46 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rythalian@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yep. If you are tanking in offensive, and are specced right, you still have at least 7-10% minimum deflection. You also likely have some riposte or parry adornments and perhaps parry food and drink, plus you will likely be hitting tsunami frequently, all of which is uncontested. That, plus a minimal amount of avoids coming from your contested avoidance checks could easily get you to 30-40%.I never said uncontested avoidance is worthless -- those are your words. It's not worthless. However, 1 point of uncontested avoidance is worth ~5-7 points of contested. I have never seen uncontested avoidance itself account for more than 10-12% avoidance against a tough TSO raid name. Usually it's closer to 5-7%. That's with my avoidance displaying at over 22K.</blockquote>Wrong if you are going all out offensive you are using +CA adorns. Also stop making stuff up, ACT does not tell you if an avoid that was made was done so as a contested or uncontested avoid so you have no clue what you are talking about. The best way to see contested avoidance is to drop all of your uncontested and tank with that and compare, something you clearly have not done as evidence of your posting. You aren't qualified to make the statements you are making. Very simply contested avoid works great and people who say it doesn't haven't done the testing, you claim to have "lots and lots of parse data to back up my statements" well show us this parse data since I know for a fact it doesn't exist.</blockquote>Your assumptions are incorrect, and, as usual, your belief that you are the only one who "knows" and everybody else is an idiot undermines rather than supports the points you want to make.Case in point:1. I know very well that ACT does not differentiate between "contested" and "uncontested" avoidance checks. Nor does the log data. I made no claim otherwise - again, your words, not mine. I reach the conclusions I have reached on the basis of looking at the overall numbers of ripostes, parries, dodges and deflections in various situations, with various setups, against various MoBs. If you look at where the numbers land with various levels of uncontested and contested avoidance, you can draw some conclusions, which I have done.2. "Very simply contested works great" is a silly statement. It works. It works at various levels against various mobs. Does it reduce incoming damage against even the toughest orange TSO raid bosses with strikethrough? Yes it does. Does it reduce very much in those situations? No, it doesn't.Unlike you, I don't believe that I know everything about this topic. That's why I continue to test these things, parse them and come here to have discussions about them. That said, it's SO aggravating to get involved in these discussions with you, when you persist in being so incredibly aggressive and abusive, that I may well stop. It's really unfortunate, because I think that you DO know quite a bit and have helpful stuff to add to the discussion. A shame, really.

BChizzle

09-30-2009, 06:14 PM

<cite>Rythalian@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your assumptions are incorrect, and, as usual, your belief that you are the only one who "knows" and everybody else is an idiot undermines rather than supports the points you want to make.Case in point:1. I know very well that ACT does not differentiate between "contested" and "uncontested" avoidance checks. Nor does the log data. I made no claim otherwise - again, your words, not mine. I reach the conclusions I have reached on the basis of looking at the overall numbers of ripostes, parries, dodges and deflections in various situations, with various setups, against various MoBs. If you look at where the numbers land with various levels of uncontested and contested avoidance, you can draw some conclusions, which I have done.2. "Very simply contested works great" is a silly statement. It works. It works at various levels against various mobs. Does it reduce incoming damage against even the toughest orange TSO raid bosses with strikethrough? Yes it does. Does it reduce very much in those situations? No, it doesn't.Unlike you, I don't believe that I know everything about this topic. That's why I continue to test these things, parse them and come here to have discussions about them. That said, it's SO aggravating to get involved in these discussions with you, when you persist in being so incredibly aggressive and abusive, that I may well stop. It's really unfortunate, because I think that you DO know quite a bit and have helpful stuff to add to the discussion. A shame, really.</blockquote>Take your own adivce and stop then because making up numbers like contested avoid does less then 5% of avoid is spreading misinformation and harmful to people trying to better themselves in this class. People come here for help not to have BS rammed into them. Quite simply you made a BS statement with nothing but fantasy to back it up.EDIT: I also want to point out that I plainly said you are wrong, I have not called you an idiot or taken it to a personal level despite your weak attempt to do so in this post. If you have an issue about being told you are wrong when you are in FACT wrong, well if you are going to make outlandish false statements with nothing but feelings to back them you might want to get used to the idea of being called wrong.

Mosha D'Khan

09-30-2009, 07:36 PM

and this is the problem with the fighter post. only if Bchizzle would never say anything and just was never negative, then these fighter post might be helpful to others.

BChizzle

09-30-2009, 08:01 PM

<cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>and this is the problem with the fighter post. only if Bchizzle would never say anything and just was never negative, then these fighter post might be helpful to others.</blockquote>Because the people saying things which are completely untrue like yourself are doing a great job helping others right? Fact is as long as people like you exist there will be people like me to point out to you that you are wrong, stop crying about it and live with it, I would think you would be used to it by now.

Morrolan V

09-30-2009, 10:36 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Take your own adivce and stop then because making up numbers like contested avoid does less then 5% of avoid is spreading misinformation and harmful to people trying to better themselves in this class. People come here for help not to have BS rammed into them. Quite simply you made a BS statement with nothing but fantasy to back it up.EDIT: I also want to point out that I plainly said you are wrong, I have not called you an idiot or taken it to a personal level despite your weak attempt to do so in this post. If you have an issue about being told you are wrong when you are in FACT wrong, well if you are going to make outlandish false statements with nothing but feelings to back them you might want to get used to the idea of being called wrong.</blockquote>Unlike you, I don't make stuff up.Below are two avoidance reports. The first is from several pulls with me tanking the first two names in Miragul's. I merged only the named fights. The second is me tanking Gynok. In both cases, I was in defensive, with tanking gear. I had 41% minimum deflection and ~22.5K overall avoidance (displays as about 92% against level 80). I had a 3.0% riposte adornment on my offhand weapon and one 3.0% parry adornment on a wrist. 2.2% parry food and 2.2% dodge drink. I was hitting tsunami in each case every time it was up, with alacrity or jesters.Miragul's:<img src="http://www.trustinginfate.com:8080/tif/download/file.php?id=754" />Gynok:<img src="http://www.trustinginfate.com:8080/tif/download/file.php?id=753" />So, looking these over, the one part it's a little hard to account for is the influence of Tsunami. Certainly, the large number of ripostes in each case is in no small part a result of it's being up often.What is clear, though, is that contested avoidance did very, very little for me. My deflection results in each case were about 1/2 of the displayed minimum deflection number. If you also assume for a moment that the "uncontested" numbers from the adornments and food/drink were about 50% effective, that means that about 1.5% of my ripostes, ~2.5% of my parries and 1% of my dodges were from those uncontested sources. Laying aside the ripostes, due to tsunami, you have about 4% parry from contested parry and 1% dodges from contested dodge. Or . . . about the 5% I mentioned before.So, there's a small sample of my data. Where's your data for the 30-40% avoidance you supposedly get when tanking in offensive gear?

BChizzle

10-01-2009, 04:12 AM

<cite>Rythalian@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Take your own adivce and stop then because making up numbers like contested avoid does less then 5% of avoid is spreading misinformation and harmful to people trying to better themselves in this class. People come here for help not to have BS rammed into them. Quite simply you made a BS statement with nothing but fantasy to back it up.EDIT: I also want to point out that I plainly said you are wrong, I have not called you an idiot or taken it to a personal level despite your weak attempt to do so in this post. If you have an issue about being told you are wrong when you are in FACT wrong, well if you are going to make outlandish false statements with nothing but feelings to back them you might want to get used to the idea of being called wrong.</blockquote>Unlike you, I don't make stuff up.Below are two avoidance reports. The first is from several pulls with me tanking the first two names in Miragul's. I merged only the named fights. The second is me tanking Gynok. In both cases, I was in defensive, with tanking gear. I had 41% minimum deflection and ~22.5K overall avoidance (displays as about 92% against level 80). I had a 3.0% riposte adornment on my offhand weapon and one 3.0% parry adornment on a wrist. 2.2% parry food and 2.2% dodge drink. I was hitting tsunami in each case every time it was up, with alacrity or jesters.Miragul's:<img src="http://www.trustinginfate.com:8080/tif/download/file.php?id=754" />Gynok:<img src="http://www.trustinginfate.com:8080/tif/download/file.php?id=753" />So, looking these over, the one part it's a little hard to account for is the influence of Tsunami. Certainly, the large number of ripostes in each case is in no small part a result of it's being up often.What is clear, though, is that uncontested avoidance did very, very little for me. My deflection results in each case were about 1/2 of the displayed minimum deflection number. If you also assume for a moment that the "uncontested" numbers from the adornments and food/drink were about 50% effective, that means that about 1.5% of my ripostes, ~2.5% of my parries and 1% of my dodges were from those uncontested sources. Laying aside the ripostes, due to tsunami, you have about 4% parry from contested parry and 1% dodges from contested dodge. Or . . . about the 5% I mentioned before.So, there's a small sample of my data. Where's your data for the 30-40% avoidance you supposedly get when tanking in offensive gear?</blockquote>Nowhere on your parses does it say contested avoidance is less then 5% keep trying.

Morrolan V

10-01-2009, 11:51 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nowhere on your parses does it say contested avoidance is less then 5% keep trying.</blockquote>My turn to call BS. You pulled your 30-40% numbers out of your nether regions and have posted no back up.You can disagree with numbers, but I posted my data and analysis.I am done with you. If others want to discuss this, I am happy to.

mr23sgte

10-01-2009, 03:23 PM

He will never stop until he gets the last word ....you my as well save your time IMO.

BChizzle

10-01-2009, 04:00 PM

<cite>Rythalian@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nowhere on your parses does it say contested avoidance is less then 5% keep trying.</blockquote>My turn to call BS. You pulled your 30-40% numbers out of your nether regions and have posted no back up.You can disagree with numbers, but I posted my data and analysis.I am done with you. If others want to discuss this, I am happy to. </blockquote>LOL, quite simply I told you how to check your contested avoid numbers, I am not going to do all the work for you because me posting an avoidance report here means little or nothing, people like you have to see it for yourselves, so go tank those same mobs in offensive let me know what your avoid is, or how about this, why don't you just look at one of your plate tanks avoidance numbers next time they are DW tanking, either way both prove my point.

BChizzle

10-01-2009, 04:08 PM

<cite>Dredful@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>He will never stop until he gets the last word ....you my as well save your time IMO.</blockquote>Honestly this guy needs help, I mean seriously he's tanking mobs without any type of avoid check on him from either a templar or another tank, but you know having the last word is important when someone who doesn't have a clue what he's talking about is trying to spread misinformation.

Traxor

10-01-2009, 05:36 PM

obviously avoidance works as intended. We can have 92% avoidance and still hit 65%. Hell i had 85% avoidance against Leviathen (doesn't have strikethrough) and still wasn't getting 70% avoidance. Spamming tsunami and dodge and weave/Masters avoidance every time it was up. ON a 17min fight time. You know how many of those i got off?

Mosha D'Khan

10-01-2009, 07:07 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dredful@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>He will never stop until he gets the last word ....you my as well save your time IMO.</blockquote>Honestly this guy needs help, I mean seriously he's tanking mobs without any type of avoid check on him from either a templar or another tank, but you know having the last word is important when someone who doesn't have a clue what he's talking about is trying to spread misinformation.</blockquote>lol i think it is funny i tried the spec bchizzle said for AE agro and still had a hard time to keep agro on group mobs. that and my dps did not increase what so ever. so not sure why you think it is better than what others may have, but it is not. just accept that you maybe wrong every now and again.

BChizzle

10-01-2009, 07:25 PM

<cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>lol i think it is funny i tried the spec bchizzle said for AE agro and still had a hard time to keep agro on group mobs. that and my dps did not increase what so ever. so not sure why you think it is better than what others may have, but it is not. just accept that you maybe wrong every now and again.</blockquote>Stop lying, it is absolutely stupid for you to say having an ae auto attack and an ae proc didnt improve your ae agro.

Dorieon

10-02-2009, 07:43 AM

Ry, I don't want to get in between you and B on this but I think you are referencing uncontested avoidance when you want to be refering to contested. Just something I noticed when you said uncontested didn't mean much. Just wondering if you meant that or it was a typo because it was in a few of your post.Also, in your chart even if you credit all your deflection and riposte to uncontested unavoidance, the contested portion is still bigger than 5%. Now I think you were just exaggerating with the 5% but once you throw a number out it is out there. No big deal, its not 30% just bigger than 5%.

Mosha D'Khan

10-02-2009, 11:00 AM

Kigneer

10-02-2009, 11:33 AM

<cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>you said you have tanked all this stuff and said you have done it is RoK gear? is this gear RoK VP gear or RoK avatar gear? because if it is either of those then your tanking it with some of the higher end gear that most players cant obtain [...]</blockquote>Precisely.The ones who make it look so easy either had the top of the line gear, and in specific hardcore raid guilds to gain it. For the typical raider in the game, they'll acquire gear that their guild (or they can get into) raids, which often isn't on par as they don't progress as fast.They'll also dance around these threads insulting folks who don't have their gear (surprise, surprise, surprise because they're not invited on raids...you can't get the gear unless you are, and if you're in a smaller or a casual guild, good luck on finding x4 raids weekly[and if you're a certain unwanted class, you're in casual guilds because they'll take every class, which raid guilds will not]), and hurl insults like that will save SoE from responsibility of making some of the most unbalanced and broken classes in gaming...I have NEVER played a game that is so class broken, nor so discriminatory per class than EQ2. It's the #1 pet peeve I have of EQ2 -- deny access not on abilities just gear and class.Just seeing the title of this thread is simply sad. Sad that EQ2 became like this, sad that players who really enjoy their class have to sit on the sidelines as devs only concentrate on one class per expansion. People pick classes for their mains because it's what THEY like to play, they don't want to keep rolling the "latest flavor" just to play.Bad and broken game design.

BChizzle

10-02-2009, 12:49 PM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>you said you have tanked all this stuff and said you have done it is RoK gear? is this gear RoK VP gear or RoK avatar gear? because if it is either of those then your tanking it with some of the higher end gear that most players cant obtain [...]</blockquote>Precisely.The ones who make it look so easy either had the top of the line gear, and in specific hardcore raid guilds to gain it. For the typical raider in the game, they'll acquire gear that their guild (or they can get into) raids, which often isn't on par as they don't progress as fast.They'll also dance around these threads insulting folks who don't have their gear (surprise, surprise, surprise because they're not invited on raids...you can't get the gear unless you are, and if you're in a smaller or a casual guild, good luck on finding x4 raids weekly[and if you're a certain unwanted class, you're in casual guilds because they'll take every class, which raid guilds will not]), and hurl insults like that will save SoE from responsibility of making some of the most unbalanced and broken classes in gaming...I have NEVER played a game that is so class broken, nor so discriminatory per class than EQ2. It's the #1 pet peeve I have of EQ2 -- deny access not on abilities just gear and class.Just seeing the title of this thread is simply sad. Sad that EQ2 became like this, sad that players who really enjoy their class have to sit on the sidelines as devs only concentrate on one class per expansion. People pick classes for their mains because it's what THEY like to play, they don't want to keep rolling the "latest flavor" just to play.Bad and broken game design.</blockquote>This is such a lie, we are on the same server and I see plenty of undergeared players get in raids and raidguilds. Hell with the state of the game right now undergeared and untalented players are more and more in end game guilds just due to the fact that their is less of a talent pool to draw from. All I see from you is QQ about things you NEVER try, I have NEVER seen you in 79 chat looking for a raid. As far as this guy goes he is complaining about ae agro yet he doesn't listen on how to play his toon from better players then him, he must be an expert because while the rest of us enjoy our class and tank fine as evidence with the amount of people here talking about how a brawler can tank. As I have always said you guys always complain about the wrong things and then you wonder why a dev can't figure out how to make our class better.

Morrolan V

10-02-2009, 01:58 PM

<cite>Dorieon@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ry, I don't want to get in between you and B on this but I think you are referencing uncontested avoidance when you want to be refering to contested. Just something I noticed when you said uncontested didn't mean much. Just wondering if you meant that or it was a typo because it was in a few of your post.Also, in your chart even if you credit all your deflection and riposte to uncontested unavoidance, the contested portion is still bigger than 5%. Now I think you were just exaggerating with the 5% but once you throw a number out it is out there. No big deal, its not 30% just bigger than 5%.</blockquote>You are absolutely right. There was a typo in the conclusion of my post with the avoidance parses where I said "uncontested" and meant "contested." I edited it in the post. Thanks for pointing it out.As to the numbers, my 5% number is probably at the low end, but I don't think crazily so. You have to make estimates based on what we know are the uncontested amounts - minimum deflection and the "caster will parry/riposte/dodge x% of incoming attacks" on adornments and food/drink. Tsunami and bob and weave also give uncontested avoidance checks (100% riposte for tsunami, 50% dodge and 50% parry for bob and weave).I admit it's hard to break the numbers down. I will, however, stand by the analysis and my consistent observation that my actual avoidance against TSO raid names is usually uncontested avoidance + 5% or so.At the end of the day, fighting about the exact numbers is not the point. The point is that, for survivability, uncontested avoidance is more important than contested. Maximize your minimum deflection, get your adornments, etc.I would be remiss if I didn't point out that maximizing mitigation, and perhaps using a ward-proc item or two is also very important. Even at very, very high avoidance numbers, relying on it is dangerous. It's still subject to streaks and spikes that can kill us. Mitigation and wards help reduce those spikes and help our survivability.

Siatfallen

10-02-2009, 06:46 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>you said you have tanked all this stuff and said you have done it is RoK gear? is this gear RoK VP gear or RoK avatar gear? because if it is either of those then your tanking it with some of the higher end gear that most players cant obtain [...]</blockquote>Precisely.The ones who make it look so easy either had the top of the line gear, and in specific hardcore raid guilds to gain it. For the typical raider in the game, they'll acquire gear that their guild (or they can get into) raids, which often isn't on par as they don't progress as fast.They'll also dance around these threads insulting folks who don't have their gear (surprise, surprise, surprise because they're not invited on raids...you can't get the gear unless you are, and if you're in a smaller or a casual guild, good luck on finding x4 raids weekly[and if you're a certain unwanted class, you're in casual guilds because they'll take every class, which raid guilds will not]), and hurl insults like that will save SoE from responsibility of making some of the most unbalanced and broken classes in gaming...I have NEVER played a game that is so class broken, nor so discriminatory per class than EQ2. It's the #1 pet peeve I have of EQ2 -- deny access not on abilities just gear and class.Just seeing the title of this thread is simply sad. Sad that EQ2 became like this, sad that players who really enjoy their class have to sit on the sidelines as devs only concentrate on one class per expansion. People pick classes for their mains because it's what THEY like to play, they don't want to keep rolling the "latest flavor" just to play.Bad and broken game design.</blockquote>This is such a lie, we are on the same server and I see plenty of undergeared players get in raids and raidguilds. Hell with the state of the game right now undergeared and untalented players are more and more in end game guilds just due to the fact that their is less of a talent pool to draw from. All I see from you is QQ about things you NEVER try, I have NEVER seen you in 79 chat looking for a raid. As far as this guy goes he is complaining about ae agro yet he doesn't listen on how to play his toon from better players then him, he must be an expert because while the rest of us enjoy our class and tank fine as evidence with the amount of people here talking about how a brawler can tank. As I have always said you guys always complain about the wrong things and then you wonder why a dev can't figure out how to make our class better.</blockquote>Look...The description given by Kigneer sounds about accurate for many brawlers - It's exceedingly simple to understand why. When's the last time your guild went out of their way to recruit a new brawler B? I mean I suppose that with them having you around there's not much point keeping a second? How many other classes would that be true for?And while it's not impossible to get on raids as a monk, if you "go fish" for pickup raids, as a brawler, you end up as filler. Just like most other fighters really. I don't know how pickup or casual raids work on your end, but here it's usually at least most of the MT group established looking for more - and who is going to pick a monk they do not know for OTing, if they can take a zerker or an SK? It's the nature of the beast.Some of us are in raid guilds (were in raid guilds in my case); we don't really have this problem. Hard numbers were posted on "that other site", though, counting classes in top-end raid guilds. You can argue mechanics if you want, but the numbers do speak for themselves. For whatever reason (I'd argue mechanics, you're welcome to say player perception), brawlers happen to be the least sought-after fighter subclass in these raid guilds.But it's not like I'm telling you something new here, is it?I do not know what Kigneer does or does not do, but calling what he's saying stupid is paramount to ignorance.As for bad game design, let's just start with the fact that the game has 24 different classes. I mean, I'd hold the imbalances against current design decisions and whatnot, but the classes have been set up like this from launch, and it's the source of so many of the problems we're seeing. Going over that point once again is old hat, but that does not make it incorrect.As for complaining about the wrong things, hasn't it been well enough established over the course of this expansion that one of the core problems here is that brawlers, as a class, lack a fundamental role that spans the entirety of content, not to mention a unity of vision within the playerbase?If so, then why exactly does it surprise anyone that complaints are lacking a specific focus?I can understand "we're not really that bad off" rhetorics. I disagree, but that's because I do not like the direction of the monk class as per tSO launch - I suppose that's just me. But saying "monks are fine, just deal with it" is exactly as misleading as the "help us, the sky is falling" nonsense.

BChizzle

10-02-2009, 07:16 PM

<cite>Siatfallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Look...The description given by Kigneer sounds about accurate for many brawlers</blockquote>I stopped right here, no sense in reading your post much like most of your posts it is filled with double talk and uniformed blabber. Kigneer is a PALI. You don't even play anymore, but I'll tell you what any point you can try and make is undone by the fact that the top guild on your server has multiple brawlers that raid regularily, we can go down the list if you like to and guess what most guilds have a brawler.

Mosha D'Khan

10-03-2009, 01:22 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siatfallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Look...The description given by Kigneer sounds about accurate for many brawlers</blockquote>I stopped right here, no sense in reading your post much like most of your posts it is filled with double talk and uniformed blabber. Kigneer is a PALI. You don't even play anymore, but I'll tell you what any point you can try and make is undone by the fact that the top guild on your server has multiple brawlers that raid regularily, we can go down the list if you like to and guess what most guilds have a brawler.</blockquote>if you would have read his post is says that at most a guild will carry 1. you stating that guilds run with multiple brawlers is wrong. everyone has their alt brawler, but none really have a main brawler. i know that when i am not on, in my guild there is not other person that plays a brawler as there main. and most of the time when i am not on they avoid things that require a brawler for that very reason. you are still looking at it 1 sided.

Dorieon

10-03-2009, 03:40 AM

<cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>if you would have read his post is says that at most a guild will carry 1. you stating that guilds run with multiple brawlers is wrong. everyone has their alt brawler, but none really have a main brawler. i know that when i am not on, in my guild there is not other person that plays a brawler as there main. and most of the time when i am not on they avoid things that require a brawler for that very reason. you are still looking at it 1 sided.</blockquote>The whole 'there is only room for one brawler in a raid' arguement is old and has run its course. Most serious raid guilds will only carry 1 guard, or 1 SK/Zerk/Pally as well. The ones who do have multiples of an archtype (pally/sk) either have two very good players or can't find someone else. Guilds may roll with 2 crusaders as mt/ot for the ae agro but most don't. The guilds with extra fighter mains also are not taking more than 2-3 fighters on a raid so the other guys are sitting or playing alts until another fighter is needed.While I do agree there are certain small tweaks needed, I fail to see the problem with only 1 or 2 brawler mains in a raid guild. If your guard isn't on is there another person that has a guard main in guild?And Ry, I 100% agree that uncontested is the vast majority of our raid avoidance and that people who don't use +mit and ward items are far less successful tanks.

Kigneer

10-03-2009, 03:59 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is such a lie, we are on the same server</blockquote>Never knew you, nor ever saw you. Did you live in the GH by chance?

Kigneer

10-03-2009, 04:35 AM

<cite>Siatfallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>And while it's not impossible to get on raids as a monk, if you "go fish" for pickup raids, as a brawler, you end up as filler. Just like most other fighters really. I don't know how pickup or casual raids work on your end, but here it's usually at least most of the MT group established looking for more - and who is going to pick a monk they do not know for OTing, if they can take a zerker or an SK? It's the nature of the beast.</blockquote>Same on Permafrost. The calls are usually for "heals and high dps"...endless calls for these. When they have such calls, the tank group is filled. The ones saying otherwise are in guilds that raid 3+ a week, so they tend to be the ones that say, "I see nothing..." (right, see nothing outside their own guild, gear and group makeup. It's really funny when you confront such types who complain that "you don't try" to whip up a PuG, and they claim next, "I'm too lazy"...lol).But I grouped with a Monk who really is into his class, and that's a nice treat, to actually group with a main, not some 32nd alt.As for that complainer complaining about me: so many claim to know so-and-so, but unless they were me, they're clueless about my own experience (and if I have to point that out in the first place, more so). It's the same experience as countless others who wait and wait and wait for a chance to raid, because they're a class that isn't the "favorite flavor".

BChizzle

10-03-2009, 10:07 AM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siatfallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>And while it's not impossible to get on raids as a monk, if you "go fish" for pickup raids, as a brawler, you end up as filler. Just like most other fighters really. I don't know how pickup or casual raids work on your end, but here it's usually at least most of the MT group established looking for more - and who is going to pick a monk they do not know for OTing, if they can take a zerker or an SK? It's the nature of the beast.</blockquote>Same on Permafrost. The calls are usually for "heals and high dps"...endless calls for these. When they have such calls, the tank group is filled. The ones saying otherwise are in guilds that raid 3+ a week, so they tend to be the ones that say, "I see nothing..." (right, see nothing outside their own guild, gear and group makeup. It's really funny when you confront such types who complain that "you don't try" to whip up a PuG, and they claim next, "I'm too lazy"...lol).But I grouped with a Monk who really is into his class, and that's a nice treat, to actually group with a main, not some 32nd alt.As for that complainer complaining about me: so many claim to know so-and-so, but unless they were me, they're clueless about my own experience (and if I have to point that out in the first place, more so). It's the same experience as countless others who wait and wait and wait for a chance to raid, because they're a class that isn't the "favorite flavor".</blockquote>I love this. You on one hand try and insult me by saying I stay in my guild hall yet you don't get out of yours long enough to realise the server you play on has a HUGE amount of main monks that both raid and group all the time. Matter of fact 3 out of the top 5 tanks on our server are monks. Go back to the pali forum please and cry there about how you can't find a group or get invited to raid even though you play a plate tank which are supposedly OP.

Mosha D'Khan

10-03-2009, 10:50 AM

<cite>Dorieon@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>While I do agree there are certain small tweaks needed, I fail to see the problem with only 1 or 2 brawler mains in a raid guild. If your guard isn't on is there another person that has a guard main in guild?</blockquote>in a raid guild maybe, but my guild is not a hard core raid guild. we are mostly just a family guild. and like i said i am the only main brawler in the guild. on my server you hardly ever see another brawler lfg, maybe 2-3 but other than that none. i know most raid guilds on the server runs with 1 but they hardly ever look for group.

Kigneer

10-03-2009, 11:33 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I love this. You on one hand try and insult me by saying I stay in my guild hall yet you don't get out of yours</blockquote>You're not helping Permafrost attract players when this is what they'll see (and what I post about class discrimination is exactly what players on Permafrost have said. It's no different what other players on other servers have said, either. So you can drop the "poor me" excuse like yesterday). Secondly, if you even knew me, BChizzle, you'd notice at GH level 22, I wouldn't even have a GH to "get out of".And I'm not interested in joining PuGs if this is the quality of the group member/raider anyway (who would?). If these Brawlers got the same lip, who blames them in having their viewpoint as well? Jumping up and down claiming, "We have a Monk that is..." doesn't remove the fact that 1001 guilds and raids don't accept Monks to play with, and purely by class discrimination.Like the challenge I gave that boy in world chat who claims I have to "try" harder, I'll challenge you and everyone else with that mindset the same: make daily PuG x4 raids and invite the classes that aren't getting invited to gear up -- and actually get a chance to tank (only way to learn). Surely if "I can do this..." types can, they can with players who don't have the 24 people online to raid with in their guilds; who don't have the gear (as they can't get into the x4 raids to get it); still maybe even getting their masters; and getting their myth updates.It's one thing to mouth, it's another to put the money where the mouth is. Heck, if I knew the maps, BChizzle, I'd do it myself as I play to have fun, and helping others have some as well IS fun (and if anyone who really knew me in game knows, I help, and help a-l-o-t)!Sidenote: there are exceptional end-game raiders on Permafrost who are mature and really are good role models who have helped not only myself others along the way (especially learning roles and maps), and it's those that are the credit to their class, guild and EQ2. Not ragtags that don't ever have time to help anyone but themselves, and spend their days showing by how much.

BChizzle

10-03-2009, 11:44 AM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I love this. You on one hand try and insult me by saying I stay in my guild hall yet you don't get out of yours</blockquote>You're not helping Permafrost attract players when this is what they'll see (and what I post about class discrimination is exactly what players on Permafrost have said. It's no different what other players on other servers have said, either. So you can drop the "poor me" excuse like yesterday). Secondly, if you even knew me, BChizzle, you'd notice at GH level 22, I wouldn't even have a GH to "get out of".And I'm not interested in joining PuGs if this is the quality of the group member/raider anyway (who would?). If these Brawlers got the same lip, who blames them in having their viewpoint as well? Jumping up and down claiming, "We have a Monk that is..." doesn't remove the fact that 1001 guilds and raids don't accept Monks to play with, and purely by class discrimination.Like the challenge I gave that boy in world chat who claims I have to "try" harder, I'll challenge you and everyone else with that mindset the same: make daily PuG x4 raids and invite the classes that aren't getting invited to gear up -- and actually get a chance to tank (only way to learn). Surely if "I can do this..." types can, they can with players who don't have the 24 people online to raid with in their guilds; who don't have the gear (as they can't get into the x4 raids to get it); still maybe even getting their masters; and getting their myth updates.It's one thing to mouth, it's another to put the money where the mouth is. Heck, if I knew the maps, BChizzle, I'd do it myself as I play to have fun, and helping others have some as well IS fun (and if anyone who really knew me in game knows, I help, and help a-l-o-t)!Sidenote: there are exceptional end-game raiders on Permafrost who are mature and really are good role models who have helped not only myself others along the way (especially learning roles and maps), and it's those that are the credit to their class, guild and EQ2. Not ragtags that don't ever have time to help anyone but themselves, and spend their days showing by how much.</blockquote>Quit crying and go back to the pali forums, it is blatently clear you would like everything handed to you and don't have the desire to put the time in to make yourself better. As far as end game raiders helping people go I help more people then you could ever dream of, as testiment to the many brawlers that thank me all the time for putting the research and time and sharing on how we can be better. You are completely derailing this topic with your QQ on how you can't find a raid group which has nothing to do with monk you don't even play one. Matter of fact I am striking you off my raid list, never done it before but you won't be getting into any of my raids with that attitude ever, you know the raids you cry about not existing that apparently go on right under your ignorant nose, I'll take anyone in my raids it doesn't matter since I usually do enough dps to cover for people like you who don't carry their weight, you'll never see it though.'I am probably not the first to cut you off from grouping with them, I would suggest your problems grouping stem less from the class you play and more from the persona of fail that you exude. Why don't you go work on not being such a hanger on for a while instead of posting on here about things you don't really have a clue about.

Kigneer

10-03-2009, 12:46 PM

The challenge still remains, all the "hoofing and puffing" won't change that fact.Now prove these Brawlers wrong, BChizzle, and offer the opprotunities so they can earn their gear and tank like anyone else. You know the beauty of grouping and raiding is sharing and all? So show us how you support your fellow EQ players.That's more useful and resourceful, than crying about me. Folks don't care about personality issues, anyway. Popcorn and peanut worthy only. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

BChizzle

10-03-2009, 12:54 PM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote>The challenge still remains, all the "hoofing and puffing" won't change that fact.Now prove these Brawlers wrong, BChizzle, and offer the opprotunities so they can earn their gear and tank like anyone else. You know the beauty of grouping and raiding is sharing and all? So show us how you support your fellow EQ players.That's more useful and resourceful, than crying about me. Folks don't care about personality issues, anyway. Popcorn and peanut worthy only. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>You already lost this stupid 'challenge' before you even started. Seriously eat some more popcorn it sounds like that is the only thing you are good at.

Mosha D'Khan

10-03-2009, 02:52 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I love this. You on one hand try and insult me by saying I stay in my guild hall yet you don't get out of yours</blockquote>You're not helping Permafrost attract players when this is what they'll see (and what I post about class discrimination is exactly what players on Permafrost have said. It's no different what other players on other servers have said, either. So you can drop the "poor me" excuse like yesterday). Secondly, if you even knew me, BChizzle, you'd notice at GH level 22, I wouldn't even have a GH to "get out of".And I'm not interested in joining PuGs if this is the quality of the group member/raider anyway (who would?). If these Brawlers got the same lip, who blames them in having their viewpoint as well? Jumping up and down claiming, "We have a Monk that is..." doesn't remove the fact that 1001 guilds and raids don't accept Monks to play with, and purely by class discrimination.Like the challenge I gave that boy in world chat who claims I have to "try" harder, I'll challenge you and everyone else with that mindset the same: make daily PuG x4 raids and invite the classes that aren't getting invited to gear up -- and actually get a chance to tank (only way to learn). Surely if "I can do this..." types can, they can with players who don't have the 24 people online to raid with in their guilds; who don't have the gear (as they can't get into the x4 raids to get it); still maybe even getting their masters; and getting their myth updates.It's one thing to mouth, it's another to put the money where the mouth is. Heck, if I knew the maps, BChizzle, I'd do it myself as I play to have fun, and helping others have some as well IS fun (and if anyone who really knew me in game knows, I help, and help a-l-o-t)!Sidenote: there are exceptional end-game raiders on Permafrost who are mature and really are good role models who have helped not only myself others along the way (especially learning roles and maps), and it's those that are the credit to their class, guild and EQ2. Not ragtags that don't ever have time to help anyone but themselves, and spend their days showing by how much.</blockquote>Quit crying and go back to the pali forums, it is blatently clear you would like everything handed to you and don't have the desire to put the time in to make yourself better. As far as end game raiders helping people go I help more people then you could ever dream of, as testiment to the many brawlers that thank me all the time for putting the research and time and sharing on how we can be better. You are completely derailing this topic with your QQ on how you can't find a raid group which has nothing to do with monk you don't even play one. Matter of fact I am striking you off my raid list, never done it before but you won't be getting into any of my raids with that attitude ever, you know the raids you cry about not existing that apparently go on right under your ignorant nose, I'll take anyone in my raids it doesn't matter since I usually do enough dps to cover for people like you who don't carry their weight, you'll never see it though.'I am probably not the first to cut you off from grouping with them, I would suggest your problems grouping stem less from the class you play and more from the persona of fail that you exude. Why don't you go work on not being such a hanger on for a while instead of posting on here about things you don't really have a clue about.</blockquote>i better not be on that list.... i should be on the list of people you have not helped what so ever. you AA set up was crap for me so start a list of people you have set back, and start adding alot of people.

BChizzle

10-03-2009, 03:00 PM

<cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>i better not be on that list.... i should be on the list of people you have not helped what so ever. you AA set up was crap for me so start a list of people you have set back, and start adding alot of people.</blockquote>You sir are irrelevant and on 0 lists, sorry you can't hold agro and won't listen to the top brawlers in this game when they try and help you out. Your choice Crabbok and myself both tried to help you but you wouldn't listen, until you start listening you will still be crying about how you suck to anyone that will listen. On the monk forum however, I think you've run your course, so move along little scrub.

Mosha D'Khan

10-03-2009, 06:24 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>i better not be on that list.... i should be on the list of people you have not helped what so ever. you AA set up was crap for me so start a list of people you have set back, and start adding alot of people.</blockquote>You sir are irrelevant and on 0 lists, sorry you can't hold agro and won't listen to the top brawlers in this game when they try and help you out. Your choice Crabbok and myself both tried to help you but you wouldn't listen, until you start listening you will still be crying about how you suck to anyone that will listen. On the monk forum however, I think you've run your course, so move along little scrub.</blockquote>[Removed for Content]..... you...in the top brawers of the game.... lol great joke. as for crabbok helping me he has and i did listen to him. he has helped me out but you ..... your just a joke. you think you maybe a top brawler, and you maybe in some views. but a top players is not rude and selfcentered arount them selfs. so you can take yourself off that list. and the last post was a joke you noob. you are so up-tight, self centered, and rude. theses characteristics dont make a top brawlers sorry to burst your bubble.

Kigneer

10-03-2009, 06:38 PM

Just ignore him. When anyone has to get personal to win "points" with the peanut gallery, they lost long ago, and it doesn't matter what gear they have; their ranking; what guild they're in; or what server they come from. It's the character of the individual that counts.Either way, hope you Brawlers will get your "fix", as well as other classes experiencing trouble. Rolling another alt to be just play the game isn't any fun. We roll mains to have fun, and if they're mothballed it isn't any.

Maamadex

10-04-2009, 03:19 AM

You couldn't raid tank your way out of a paper bag Foreen, so what are you doing in the monk forum offering advice?

Kigneer

10-04-2009, 03:52 AM

<cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite><blockquote>You couldn't raid tank your way out of a paper bag Foreen, so what are you doing in the monk forum offering advice?</blockquote>...Kiara's advice is pretty good: forum trolls need to be placed on a strict diet of no peanuts and popcorn...

Dorieon

10-04-2009, 07:16 AM

Mosha- sorry crane flock didn't work for you. I have an alt bruiser that is not geared all that well and it helps him. I only use it in zones where it may matter, so maybe that is the difference (AA mirror ftw). Regardless, it was good advice imo and trying it once and failing doesn't mean the advice was bad.Kigneer- Go back to your own forums, you know very little about brawlers. Our problems are few, AE agro and spike damage (which can be mitigated to an extent with diff gear). Neither of which keep us from doing our job, they just make us work harder or need a bit more gear than a plate tank.With T2 gear, all that 'I can't get the gear to compete' crap is now BS. All classes can now gear in T2/T3 and compete for a raid slot if they play the class well. They may not steal a slot from a better geared player but they can get their name out there just by playing well in pugs. And that leads to more. Its the same for all classes.

Kigneer

10-04-2009, 01:31 PM

<cite>Dorieon@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Mosha- sorry crane flock didn't work for you. I have an alt bruiser that is not geared all that well and it helps him. I only use it in zones where it may matter, so maybe that is the difference (AA mirror ftw). Regardless, it was good advice imo and trying it once and failing doesn't mean the advice was bad.Kigneer- Go back to your own forums, you know very little about brawlers.</blockquote>Never gave any advice as playing a Brawler isn't my main, because things like the above happens if you do. Saving face after frustration later doesn't help the Brawlers. Wisdom 101 for you.You're better off getting advice in game with players you know and trust, anyway. It bypasses the soap operas, and "hurt feelings" of those who claim they know XYZ, in a group based game where achievements are rarely earned individually to show they actually do know their class. Anyone can rattle off stats, anyone can show off gear (often it's bought anyway), so beware...

BChizzle

10-04-2009, 07:58 PM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Never gave any advice as playing a Brawler isn't my main, because things like the above happens if you do. Saving face after frustration later doesn't help the Brawlers. Wisdom 101 for you.You're better off getting advice in game with players you know and trust, anyway. It bypasses the soap operas, and "hurt feelings" of those who claim they know XYZ, in a group based game where achievements are rarely earned individually to show they actually do know their class. Anyone can rattle off stats, anyone can show off gear (often it's bought anyway), so beware...</blockquote>Then follow your own advice and head back to the pali forums. We are talking about MONK's here and offering advice on things you aren't qualified to talk about. Hell you really aren't qualified to even talk about your own class, you haven't even played enough to get your mythical.

Kigneer

10-04-2009, 08:19 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>We are talking about MONK's here</blockquote>....Correction: The Monks have been ignoring the troll for a day now, and he feels left out...

BChizzle

10-04-2009, 11:06 PM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>We are talking about MONK's here</blockquote>....Correction: The Monks have been ignoring the troll for a day now, and he feels left out...</blockquote>You truly believe the delusional drivel you spout don't you? They have rubber rooms for people like you, enjoy bouncing off the walls. You can't call someone a troll when you are for one in a forum where you really have no qualifications to help telling people how and how they shouldn't play their toons and attempting to influence them and two offering nothing but useless drivel. Pretty much sir you are the definition of a forum troll in the flesh, funny part is though, while you think people are feeding you Mr Troll all we are really seeing is you with a mouthful of crap.Facts are you are a Paly who can't manage to get his mythical trying to tell monks how to play. If they were to listen to you we'd have a bunch of monks without their mythicals who are in a guild all by themselves because nobody wants to group with them who sit and tradeskill all day then come here and complain about how they can't get a group. You are welcome to your own little niche role but it is hardly the normal behaviour for players in an MMO. I would suggest to you instead of acting like a pompous know it all who really knows little that you try maybe to embrace the social aspects of this game, so far all I do is see you show up in threads acting like you are some expert at this game when you have been playing all of a year and haven't even experienced most of it. You are pretty much qualified to comment on new player experience since thats is about all you have experienced please stick to your role and when the bigboys whip out their Tonka trucks just stay in your little corner of the sandbox and learn.The sad part is despite multiple people telling you to take a hike, you'll probably just keep on posting here. The difference between me and you is I tried to help Mosha despite his self defeating attitude and so have others, all you are doing is preaching some fantasy idealisms which have nothing at all to do with the topic and throwing in some me me me garbage about palys which doesn't belong in the monk forum.

Kigneer

10-04-2009, 11:58 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>We are talking about MONK's here</blockquote>....Correction: The Monks have been ignoring the troll for a day now, and he feels left out...</blockquote>You truly believe the delusional drivel you spout don't you? They have rubber rooms for people like you, enjoy bouncing off the walls. You can't call someone a troll when you are for one in a forum where you really have no qualifications to help telling people how and how they shouldn't play their toons and attempting to influence them and two offering nothing but useless drivel. Pretty much sir you are the definition of a forum troll in the flesh, funny part is though, while you think people are feeding you Mr Troll all we are really seeing is you with a mouthful of crap.Facts are you are a Paly who can't manage to get his mythical trying to tell monks how to play. If they were to listen to you we'd have a bunch of monks without their mythicals who are in a guild all by themselves because nobody wants to group with them who sit and tradeskill all day then come here and complain about how they can't get a group. You are welcome to your own little niche role but it is hardly the normal behaviour for players in an MMO. I would suggest to you instead of acting like a pompous know it all who really knows little that you try maybe to embrace the social aspects of this game, so far all I do is see you show up in threads acting like you are some expert at this game when you have been playing all of a year and haven't even experienced most of it. You are pretty much qualified to comment on new player experience since thats is about all you have experienced please stick to your role and when the bigboys whip out their Tonka trucks just stay in your little corner of the sandbox and learn.The sad part is despite multiple people telling you to take a hike, you'll probably just keep on posting here. The difference between me and you is I tried to help Mosha despite his self defeating attitude and so have others, all you are doing is preaching some fantasy idealisms which have nothing at all to do with the topic and throwing in some me me me garbage about palys which doesn't belong in the monk forum.</blockquote>... It gets old... <a href="http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/poisoning-the-well.html">http://www.nizkor.org/features/fall...g-the-well.html</a> ...

BChizzle

10-05-2009, 01:15 AM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>The sad part is despite multiple people telling you to take a hike, you'll probably just keep on posting here. The difference between me and you is I tried to help Mosha despite his self defeating attitude and so have others, all you are doing is preaching some fantasy idealisms which have nothing at all to do with the topic and throwing in some me me me garbage about palys which doesn't belong in the monk forum.</blockquote>... It gets old... <a href="http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/poisoning-the-well.html">http://www.nizkor.org/features/fall...g-the-well.html</a> ...</blockquote>Thanks for proving my point, next up you will start spouting more garbage that isn't related to anything about being a monk once again proving my point. The paly forum is just a few clicks down if you keep trying real hard maybe you will be able to find it.

ShinGoku

10-05-2009, 05:16 AM

Ok to get this stupid pi55ing contest under control:I have a lvl 80 Monk, not yet mythicaled but on the path now, I only have 139AA atm but I do have mostly AD3 / Masters, gear wise I am split between T1 shard and some RoK 77 MC, tell me this, why is it I can tank AND dps better on both my 76 SK AND my newbie 39 zerker? I realise its apples and oranges but I'm making a point here.My point of references are as follows:Mobs that can whip my 80 monk are much easier to tank on my 76 sk. This shouldnt be should it? Also I tested my avoidance against the same mob several times and each time, my monk avoidance didn't work consistently.Edit for further clarity:My point is monks need SOMETHING done with them to make them either a better tank or better dps even yet follow through on the highbrid theory and give us a form of group utility to assist others.Of the scout arch types (totally different ballgame I know but go with me..) 2 are dps, 2 are debuffers and 2 are utility. Why not follow the pattern through? As is, devs have tried to push us into the tank arena by using our mythical to fix us to be more competative as tanks. I'm sure a dev stated that no class should every NEED equipment to function properly!

BChizzle

10-05-2009, 06:46 AM

<cite>ShinGoku wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok to get this stupid pi55ing contest under control:I have a lvl 80 Monk, not yet mythicaled but on the path now, I only have 139AA atm but I do have mostly AD3 / Masters, gear wise I am split between T1 shard and some RoK 77 MC, tell me this, why is it I can tank AND dps better on both my 76 SK AND my newbie 39 zerker? I realise its apples and oranges but I'm making a point here.My point of references are as follows:Mobs that can whip my 80 monk are much easier to tank on my 76 sk. This shouldnt be should it? Also I tested my avoidance against the same mob several times and each time, my monk avoidance didn't work consistently.Edit for further clarity:My point is monks need SOMETHING done with them to make them either a better tank or better dps even yet follow through on the highbrid theory and give us a form of group utility to assist others.Of the scout arch types (totally different ballgame I know but go with me..) 2 are dps, 2 are debuffers and 2 are utility. Why not follow the pattern through? As is, devs have tried to push us into the tank arena by using our mythical to fix us to be more competative as tanks. I'm sure a dev stated that no class should every NEED equipment to function properly!</blockquote>First you are doing something seriously wrong if your lvl 80 monk isn't tanking as good as a level 76 sk. Second get your myth then come back, it is an absolutely essential part of the monk class, a dev may have stated you don't need an item to function properly but this whole expansion was balanced around people wearing their mythicals like it or not. No plate tank is doing an effective job without their mythicals either plain and simple no matter what people might tell you they are that overpowered. 10 times out of 10 a mythical geared person of the same tank class will be a better choice over a non mythicaled one, don't believe any of the ideological crap people might spew about it. Anyone says differently they are delusional. It is certainly part of the balance problem that mythicals are so OP but hopefully that is fixed in the next expansion when we out level them.There is no way around it really, you can load up on mit to help but it makes that much of a difference.

Mosha D'Khan

10-05-2009, 11:07 AM

k bchizzle i got a few questions for you because you say you know what you are talking about. i went back and tried that aa set up again but had different set up in the group and then used the same group for different zones. but before i say what results i got i got a few questions.1. on raids do you run with +hate gain (dirge, corcer)? rate it on a scale of 1-10. 1 being never 10 being always2. in groups do you run with +hate gain (dirge, corcer)? rate it on a scale of 1-10. 1 being never 10 being alwaysthis is what i am wondering and i saw a difference in agro. dont care about dps atm

BChizzle

10-05-2009, 11:18 AM

<cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>k bchizzle i got a few questions for you because you say you know what you are talking about. i went back and tried that aa set up again but had different set up in the group and then used the same group for different zones. but before i say what results i got i got a few questions.1. on raids do you run with +hate gain (dirge, corcer)? rate it on a scale of 1-10. 1 being never 10 being always2. in groups do you run with +hate gain (dirge, corcer)? rate it on a scale of 1-10. 1 being never 10 being alwaysthis is what i am wondering and i saw a difference in agro. dont care about dps atm</blockquote>In groups I dont need hate but in raids yes I need hate, sorry but tanks just cant hold agro off avatar geared dps consistently without hate buffs but every tank needs that. I also would suggest you get hate whenever you can and form your own groups and make them good for you, a chanter+bard combo will make things less frustrating for you especially since you are newer to tanking later on when you gear better its not as important. Glad craneflock is working for you, haste is not really a problem if you have a dirge cob or an illusionist etc

Mosha D'Khan

10-05-2009, 11:42 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>k bchizzle i got a few questions for you because you say you know what you are talking about. i went back and tried that aa set up again but had different set up in the group and then used the same group for different zones. but before i say what results i got i got a few questions.1. on raids do you run with +hate gain (dirge, corcer)? rate it on a scale of 1-10. 1 being never 10 being always2. in groups do you run with +hate gain (dirge, corcer)? rate it on a scale of 1-10. 1 being never 10 being alwaysthis is what i am wondering and i saw a difference in agro. dont care about dps atm</blockquote>In groups I dont need hate but in raids yes I need hate, sorry but tanks just cant hold agro off avatar geared dps consistently without hate buffs but every tank needs that. I also would suggest you get hate whenever you can and form your own groups and make them good for you, a chanter+bard combo will make things less frustrating for you especially since you are newer to tanking later on when you gear better its not as important. Glad craneflock is working for you, haste is not really a problem if you have a dirge cob or an illusionist etc</blockquote>well this weekend ran with a dirge in the group that gave me +42 hate gain and in both aa set ups i never saw some one go above 18% on the closest person on the hate meter (little yellow numbers). in my normal on (not the one you suggested, i would hit my 2 AEs then never worry about it. with you one you suggested i would hit the 3 AEs and then use crane flock to jsut up my dps. with the dirge's 10% crit modifier i saw that dps was about the same. but the thing i am trying to focus on is agro atm, and with a dirge it seems i can do either AA set up to keep agro but seems that with a dirge and the hate gain the AE proc helps alittle more with agro. but i dont always have a dirge or corcer = (

BChizzle

10-05-2009, 01:57 PM

<cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>well this weekend ran with a dirge in the group that gave me +42 hate gain and in both aa set ups i never saw some one go above 18% on the closest person on the hate meter (little yellow numbers). in my normal on (not the one you suggested, i would hit my 2 AEs then never worry about it. with you one you suggested i would hit the 3 AEs and then use crane flock to jsut up my dps. with the dirge's 10% crit modifier i saw that dps was about the same. but the thing i am trying to focus on is agro atm, and with a dirge it seems i can do either AA set up to keep agro but seems that with a dirge and the hate gain the AE proc helps alittle more with agro. but i dont always have a dirge or corcer = (</blockquote>At this point Id say its time for you to talk with your bruiser kin, for a monk dirge coercer is just pure awesomeness, throw in a good swashy/assassin and well ae isnt an issue anymore, as far as bruiser goes you guys might be better with maybe an illy or something along those lines for the haste. Keep in mind you wont find a tank class that doesnt want a dirge and chanter in the group it doesn't make us different really. You will see as you get better with zones and gear up things will improve. I'll also point out that being smart with your aes is pretty important, for example if I have all 3 of my aes up plus taunt ae I probably wont use craneflock on that fight, but the next fight I will probably use it due to our dragon ae. I am not a bruiser but you probably have the same sort of thing plus u have that ae target lock thing as well, you will get a feel soon enough on what to use when to use it etc.

Morrolan V

10-05-2009, 02:54 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>At this point Id say its time for you to talk with your bruiser kin, for a monk dirge coercer is just pure awesomeness, throw in a good swashy/assassin and well ae isnt an issue anymore, as far as bruiser goes you guys might be better with maybe an illy or something along those lines for the haste. Keep in mind you wont find a tank class that doesnt want a dirge and chanter in the group it doesn't make us different really. You will see as you get better with zones and gear up things will improve. I'll also point out that being smart with your aes is pretty important, for example if I have all 3 of my aes up plus taunt ae I probably wont use craneflock on that fight, but the next fight I will probably use it due to our dragon ae. I am not a bruiser but you probably have the same sort of thing plus u have that ae target lock thing as well, you will get a feel soon enough on what to use when to use it etc.</blockquote>This.Good advice.

Mosha D'Khan

10-05-2009, 08:29 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>well this weekend ran with a dirge in the group that gave me +42 hate gain and in both aa set ups i never saw some one go above 18% on the closest person on the hate meter (little yellow numbers). in my normal on (not the one you suggested, i would hit my 2 AEs then never worry about it. with you one you suggested i would hit the 3 AEs and then use crane flock to jsut up my dps. with the dirge's 10% crit modifier i saw that dps was about the same. but the thing i am trying to focus on is agro atm, and with a dirge it seems i can do either AA set up to keep agro but seems that with a dirge and the hate gain the AE proc helps alittle more with agro. but i dont always have a dirge or corcer = (</blockquote>At this point Id say its time for you to talk with your bruiser kin, for a monk dirge coercer is just pure awesomeness, throw in a good swashy/assassin and well ae isnt an issue anymore, as far as bruiser goes you guys might be better with maybe an illy or something along those lines for the haste. Keep in mind you wont find a tank class that doesnt want a dirge and chanter in the group it doesn't make us different really. You will see as you get better with zones and gear up things will improve. I'll also point out that being smart with your aes is pretty important, for example if I have all 3 of my aes up plus taunt ae I probably wont use craneflock on that fight, but the next fight I will probably use it due to our dragon ae. I am not a bruiser but you probably have the same sort of thing plus u have that ae target lock thing as well, you will get a feel soon enough on what to use when to use it etc.</blockquote>dont think gear is the problem, just that i dont have a AE taunt (it is group) and the AE lock you speak of is a encounter one. other than that the only thing that would help is a few pieces of +hate gain i would say.i hope this link works but this is my character:<a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=635359111">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...terId=635359111</a>and the bio is statments are all true. (well the Highest dps on parse (non name^^^) needs to be changed. have it written down some where but dont fell like looking it up)

Dorieon

10-06-2009, 06:36 AM

Mosha your gear is fine. More than fine really. I think you really just need a bit more experience tanking. And the only way to get that is to keep doing it. Most of us that say we have no problem tanking have been doing it since we rolled the toon (4-5 yrs for some) so we have a leg up on you. Just keep doing it and ask people what works and eventually you will have no issue.

BChizzle

10-06-2009, 07:14 AM

Ya your gears good, I would say drop the lava lotus/jin drake stuff for the hybrid set when you get the chance, the dps gains from the hybrid set completely offset any defensive help you get from the tank set and you did mention taking damage wasn't an issue for you. As far as +hate stuff goes, I barely ever put it on, I use it in situations only in raids where I dont get hate from a buff which for me is rarely. However, with your gear you should be able to tank anything in this game up until probably gynok progression.

Aull

10-06-2009, 03:17 PM

What is the hybrid set named please.Thanks in advance.

Morrolan V

10-06-2009, 03:44 PM

Wilderness Warrior (T2) and Elemental Infused (T3) are the hybrid dps sets. In particular the shoulders (+8 or +9 base CA) and the 3 piece bonus on the sets (+4 base CA) are a big deal. For DPS, I run with 3 pieces of the T3 gear, including shoulders.I have heard that some folks run 3 pieces of T3 and 3 pieces of T2 hybrid gear to get both 3 piece bonuses. Haven't tried that myself.Mosha, only other thing I note about your gear is your charm items. Can readily get much better from TSO instances (Yciid outrider charm from trash in ravenscale and Dangling Skull Bone Chip from final boss in NA).

BChizzle

10-06-2009, 04:06 PM

<cite>Rythalian@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have heard that some folks run 3 pieces of T3 and 3 pieces of T2 hybrid gear to get both 3 piece bonuses. Haven't tried that myself.</blockquote>This works great, now that it is out there though expect it to get nerfed.

Mosha D'Khan

10-06-2009, 07:41 PM

<cite>Rythalian@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wilderness Warrior (T2) and Elemental Infused (T3) are the hybrid dps sets. In particular the shoulders (+8 or +9 base CA) and the 3 piece bonus on the sets (+4 base CA) are a big deal. For DPS, I run with 3 pieces of the T3 gear, including shoulders.I have heard that some folks run 3 pieces of T3 and 3 pieces of T2 hybrid gear to get both 3 piece bonuses. Haven't tried that myself.Mosha, only other thing I note about your gear is your charm items. Can readily get much better from TSO instances (Yciid outrider charm from trash in ravenscale and Dangling Skull Bone Chip from final boss in NA).</blockquote>reason i did not go with the hybrid set is because i prefer the melee crit than the DA the hybrid gives. as for charms i know that they suck and could be better but until i get into the higher zones (ravenscale, outerguk, only done Pof once, ect).always wondered how big of a deal is +base crit? like does +1 base crit = 1%, if so that is not that big on attacks that do 4000k, that would only be +40 damage which is not a big deal if you ask me.

BChizzle

10-06-2009, 08:26 PM

<cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>reason i did not go with the hybrid set is because i prefer the melee crit than the DA the hybrid gives. as for charms i know that they suck and could be better but until i get into the higher zones (ravenscale, outerguk, only done Pof once, ect).always wondered how big of a deal is +base crit? like does +1 base crit = 1%, if so that is not that big on attacks that do 4000k, that would only be +40 damage which is not a big deal if you ask me.</blockquote>Its base ca dmg we are talking about and it is a big deal especially even more so for a bruiser.

Mosha D'Khan

10-07-2009, 01:16 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>reason i did not go with the hybrid set is because i prefer the melee crit than the DA the hybrid gives. as for charms i know that they suck and could be better but until i get into the higher zones (ravenscale, outerguk, only done Pof once, ect).always wondered how big of a deal is +base crit? like does +1 base crit = 1%, if so that is not that big on attacks that do 4000k, that would only be +40 damage which is not a big deal if you ask me.</blockquote>Its base ca dmg we are talking about and it is a big deal especially even more so for a bruiser.</blockquote>opps.... that is what i ment that base crit should be "base CA". sorry for the typo. but seriously what is the damage increase is it ever point is a % or what?

Raznor2

10-07-2009, 04:22 AM

I recently retired my Monk and began working on a swashbucker as my main. It wasn't because I felt Monks couldn't tank, they can and I could. It had to do with a few things: The first reason was the role for Monks in raids. Generally our guild has two or three plate tanks that are well geared and attended reguarly so I basicly served as a moderate dpser with a good tank buff and raid buff. This wasn't what I was wanting to do on raids. I wanted to see some fights where avoidance was needed for the raid mob or for a portion of a raid encounter and brawlers would serve as tanks for those fights. But I never saw that sort of fight. Perhaps there's more farther in progression but as far as I've gotten (past snake in tomc, past first two names in poa, vp, past maestro in poh) I haven't seen them. At some point I realized I was trying to fit into a dps role as a tank and it didn't make sense, so that's the first reason I switched. The second is how tanking stances are working. Not being in defensive always seemed counter intuitive, I need to take the hits, so I should maximize my defenses right? It doesn't work like that though. Defensive is wretched for holding onto mobs, so much so that most tanks tank in offensive stance for the dps to control mobs. I was excited about the hate changes in the proposed tank revamp but it got scrapped. I know the offensive stance changes would have left tanks stuck using defensive stance all the time but, the idea of havig higher taunt amounts and less dependancy on hate transfers, allowing tanks to use defensive stance more and be less dependant on certain classes was a good idea. The last reason was the brawlers' lack of control for group encounters. Even with crane flock it was getting tedious: tab, hit, taunt, tab repeat. With two mobs it's doable, three gets difficult and after that it becomes a mess. In contrast to other tanks, it feels even worse. After awhile it just wasn't fun, I'd come out of zones frustrated with having to switch targets constantly to keep a handle on everything. I doubt I'll ever see the types of changes to raid encounters that I have in mind. However, I do hope they look at brawlers when or if they ever do a fighter revamp. Some percentage of auto attack going to ae, a passive taunt based on avoidance, some stronger green and blue background taunts along with making defensive stance more attractive to use would go a long way towards making brawlers better for tanking.~Raithan

BChizzle

10-07-2009, 09:31 AM

<cite>Raznor269 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I recently retired my Monk and began working on a swashbucker as my main. It wasn't because I felt Monks couldn't tank, they can and I could. It had to do with a few things: The first reason was the role for Monks in raids. Generally our guild has two or three plate tanks that are well geared and attended reguarly so I basicly served as a moderate dpser with a good tank buff and raid buff. This wasn't what I was wanting to do on raids. I wanted to see some fights where avoidance was needed for the raid mob or for a portion of a raid encounter and brawlers would serve as tanks for those fights. But I never saw that sort of fight. Perhaps there's more farther in progression but as far as I've gotten (past snake in tomc, past first two names in poa, vp, past maestro in poh) I haven't seen them. At some point I realized I was trying to fit into a dps role as a tank and it didn't make sense, so that's the first reason I switched. The second is how tanking stances are working. Not being in defensive always seemed counter intuitive, I need to take the hits, so I should maximize my defenses right? It doesn't work like that though. Defensive is wretched for holding onto mobs, so much so that most tanks tank in offensive stance for the dps to control mobs. I was excited about the hate changes in the proposed tank revamp but it got scrapped. I know the offensive stance changes would have left tanks stuck using defensive stance all the time but, the idea of havig higher taunt amounts and less dependancy on hate transfers, allowing tanks to use defensive stance more and be less dependant on certain classes was a good idea. The last reason was the brawlers' lack of control for group encounters. Even with crane flock it was getting tedious: tab, hit, taunt, tab repeat. With two mobs it's doable, three gets difficult and after that it becomes a mess. In contrast to other tanks, it feels even worse. After awhile it just wasn't fun, I'd come out of zones frustrated with having to switch targets constantly to keep a handle on everything. I doubt I'll ever see the types of changes to raid encounters that I have in mind. However, I do hope they look at brawlers when or if they ever do a fighter revamp. Some percentage of auto attack going to ae, a passive taunt based on avoidance, some stronger green and blue background taunts along with making defensive stance more attractive to use would go a long way towards making brawlers better for tanking.~Raithan</blockquote>There isnt really a fight where avoidance is better then mit, but there does come a point where a brawlers mit is just as good as a plate if that is any help. Fighter 2.0 changes were imbraced pretty much universally by monks it was an excellent change for us and addressed some of the areas we need improving. As far as ae auto and taunt based on avoidence I don't really like those ideas but some do. For the ae auto I like the originality of crane twirl it just needs to be more effective and for taunt while avoiding well you should talk to zerkers they gain hate when they get hit and that dynamic ends up sucking if you aren't always holding agro, I'd rather depend on things you can do to hold hate rather then things other people shouldn't do.

Rhod

11-09-2009, 07:27 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>lol i think it is funny i tried the spec bchizzle said for AE agro and still had a hard time to keep agro on group mobs. that and my dps did not increase what so ever. so not sure why you think it is better than what others may have, but it is not. just accept that you maybe wrong every now and again.</blockquote>Stop lying, it is absolutely stupid for you to say having an ae auto attack and an ae proc didnt improve your ae agro.</blockquote>Hi guys, can you please link the post with Bchizzle's AE aggro spec (Im assuming this is an AA configuration). I have had a look but cant find it. I currently use a mirror to switch between offensive and defensive AA sets, and would like some guidance on tweaking the defensive set.I am only really just starting to get into tanking with my monk and find it a challenge to maintain aggro in group mob situations, seems I need to tab/cycle through mobs regularly to one of the mob's Im not directly targetting from bleeding off me. Is this normal or more likely a consequence of how Im going about things?In other words, if 3 mobs are grouped as a linked encounter, do they all sit equally on the hate table, ie: do the two not directly targetted have the same hate as the one Im beating up? Do most monks regularly tab/rotate through linked encounter targets?I am enjoying tanking and would like to get better at it, and I find these forums very useful, for example I never really understood the difference between avoidance increase and avoidance chance increase and/or contested versus uncontested, so this thread has been very helpful. For example, I have just respecced both my weapon adornments to plus 3% riposte after reading through this thread.When tanking I find my survivability is very good and if I am wearing my tanking gear quite often my health bar hardly moves, but the trade off is DPS and consequently hate management as my damage output drops significantly when I switch from my dps gear to my defensive gear. I have two full T3 sets (Monk set and hybrid/dps set). Note that I have only ever tanked heroics and have not attempted any raid level tanking.I am currently at about 86.5% avoidance self buffed in my defensive AA set + defensive equipment + defensive stance. This seems low compared to some posters who mention having over 90%.Ok thanks!

BChizzle

11-09-2009, 08:19 PM

<cite>Rhod wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hi guys, can you please link the post with Bchizzle's AE aggro spec (Im assuming this is an AA configuration). I have had a look but cant find it. I currently use a mirror to switch between offensive and defensive AA sets, and would like some guidance on tweaking the defensive set.I am only really just starting to get into tanking with my monk and find it a challenge to maintain aggro in group mob situations, seems I need to tab/cycle through mobs regularly to one of the mob's Im not directly targetting from bleeding off me. Is this normal or more likely a consequence of how Im going about things?In other words, if 3 mobs are grouped as a linked encounter, do they all sit equally on the hate table, ie: do the two not directly targetted have the same hate as the one Im beating up? Do most monks regularly tab/rotate through linked encounter targets?I am enjoying tanking and would like to get better at it, and I find these forums very useful, for example I never really understood the difference between avoidance increase and avoidance chance increase and/or contested versus uncontested, so this thread has been very helpful. For example, I have just respecced both my weapon adornments to plus 3% riposte after reading through this thread.When tanking I find my survivability is very good and if I am wearing my tanking gear quite often my health bar hardly moves, but the trade off is DPS and consequently hate management as my damage output drops significantly when I switch from my dps gear to my defensive gear. I have two full T3 sets (Monk set and hybrid/dps set). Note that I have only ever tanked heroics and have not attempted any raid level tanking.I am currently at about 86.5% avoidance self buffed in my defensive AA set + defensive equipment + defensive stance. This seems low compared to some posters who mention having over 90%.Ok thanks!</blockquote>Challenge, crane flock, crane twirl, crane sweep, dragon fire, crescent strike are all our ae abilities. What I tend to do is crecent strike, crane twirl (pro) and challenge are going to be up every group pull usually so you would always use those now the rest of the abilities you can alternate through so that for the most part at least one of them will be up with those abilities, you can also use tsunami to help hold agro with the riposte effect dps. Situations might happen where you might have to tab but it shouldn't really happen too much if your group is following you target.

Ambrin

11-09-2009, 11:57 PM

For AE agro the most important thing you can do is pick up the following pieces:* Hood of Chaotic Manipulation from the last name in Scion of IceaITEM 24063942 343632270:[Hood of Chaotic Manipulation]/a* Burning Lavastud from the last name in Deep Forge aITEM 208242699 1861817281:[Burning Lavastud]/a* Charm of the Lost from the Undead Jester in Befallen: Caverns of the AfflictedaITEM -774841730 -2045188570:[Charm of the Lost]/a* Buckle of Light and Darkness from trash mobs in Necrotic AsylumaITEM -1853218638 101467932:[Buckle of Light and Darkness]/a* Survival Accord BadgeaITEM 261749425 -1858555654:[Survival Accord Badge]/aThe above items basically all proc some kind of reactive damage or a damage and a heal, the most important of these are the hat, the charm, and the earring as they deal AoE damage Wearing the gear I listed above I have parsed as high as 14000DPS just letting mobs hit me (massive, massive swarms of mobs). This has made AE agro very easy for me, and I do not even have all the reactive damage gear available to me. Just a quick note, a lot of these items are rather rare and can take some time to farm. There are more items with reactive procs, but these are the ones I have in my inventory at the moment.

BChizzle

11-10-2009, 12:02 AM

<cite>Ambrin@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>For AE agro the most important thing you can do is pick up the following pieces:* Hood of Chaotic Manipulation from the last name in Scion of IceaITEM 24063942 343632270:[Hood of Chaotic Manipulation]/a* Burning Lavastud from the last name in Deep Forge aITEM 208242699 1861817281:[Burning Lavastud]/a* Charm of the Lost from the Undead Jester in Befallen: Caverns of the AfflictedaITEM -774841730 -2045188570:[Charm of the Lost]/a* Buckle of Light and Darkness from trash mobs in Necrotic AsylumaITEM -1853218638 101467932:[Buckle of Light and Darkness]/a* Survival Accord BadgeaITEM 261749425 -1858555654:[Survival Accord Badge]/aThe above items basically all proc some kind of reactive damage or a damage and a heal, the most important of these are the hat, the charm, and the earring as they deal AoE damage Wearing the gear I listed above I have parsed as high as 14000DPS just letting mobs hit me (massive, massive swarms of mobs). This has made AE agro very easy for me, and I do not even have all the reactive damage gear available to me. Just a quick note, a lot of these items are rather rare and can take some time to farm. There are more items with reactive procs, but these are the ones I have in my inventory at the moment.</blockquote>The only thing I can say about this is the idea as an avoidance tank is not to get hit, stuns tsunami bob and weave plain avoidance all create scenarios where reactive gear is not as effective. Better to create your agro for yourself rather then to depend on a reactive.

Ambrin

11-10-2009, 12:22 AM

I agree with that completely and have specced all the way down wisdom, but there is no denying that you will get hit and these reactive can help a lot, especially when you've pulled an entire level in CL1 or an entire room in almost any other zone.

BChizzle

11-10-2009, 01:00 AM

<cite>Ambrin@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree with that completely and have specced all the way down wisdom, but there is no denying that you will get hit and these reactive can help a lot, especially when you've pulled an entire level in CL1 or an entire room in almost any other zone.</blockquote>Ya I am not saying don't use it(I mean I wear a reactive ear) what I am saying is they should worry about getting good at holding 1 or two groups before they get into pulling whole rooms.

Rhod

11-10-2009, 06:58 AM

Hi Bchizzle and Ambrin - thanks for the info and tips.One thing, with the items in the post above I can see the AE procs on the Hat and the burning lavastud. But the charm doesnt seem to have a proc?Cheers

jrolla777

11-10-2009, 09:22 AM

the survival charm does have a reactive damage proc, its just smaller and not aoe

Ambrin

11-10-2009, 12:39 PM

Charm of the Lost and Burning Lavastud both have the Mutagenic Burst proc on them which is an AE direct damage proc that has a 10% chance of triggering whenever you take any damage. The Survival Accord Badge is a small single target direct damage proc which also heals you a small amount when it triggers, it has a 8% chance of proccing when you take any damage.

Rhod

11-11-2009, 04:52 AM

Thanks for the info.The Charm of the Lost at LootDB doesnt have a proc on it, so is it wrong?aITEM -774841730 -2045188570:Charm of the Lost/a

Ambrin

11-11-2009, 05:33 PM

Yes, the Charm of the Lost does have the mutagenic proc on it, if LootDB says otherwise than LootDB is wrong.

Saphirewind

11-29-2009, 07:45 PM

I know I am a little late joining in the fun, I attribute it to rarely checking these forums since it seems that there is rarely anything going on on them. This thread made me LOL though. I love tanking, and I love DPSing. I thought it was awesome when I was invited to a pick up raid a while back and the raid leader asked me to MT rather than one of the 5 other plate tanks. I started playing EQ2 around when ROK came out I think and my monk was my first toon on the game. Since then I have fought tooth and nail and clawed my way up the heap and become one of the top monks on the server, if nothing else my expirence should show that with hard work and determination it is possible for a monk to get into a top end raid guild by knowing their class, and being a good player, no matter when they started playing the game. As for B, he is rough, coarse, and brusque, but he knows what he is talking about. If you are gonna ask something instead of putting in hours and hours (not to mention a vast quantity of plat on AA respecs to tweak you AA lines) to test, re test, compare, test again, change, and then decide that you want to go a different direction all together; listen to the advice that you are given.Now, for my 2cp on AE aggro control: Crane Flock + Tsunami = win. I will often run into a room full of mobs, hit Full Moon (now Crescent Strike II or something like that) on my way in, then back into a corner and hit Crane Flock followed immediately by Tsunami. With Dragon Rage going, I do not have much, if any, trouble with aggro after this combo. Not only that but with the Shadow AA ability that increases my riposte dmg by the time CF and Tsunami are down, about 85-90% of the mobs I aggroed are dead having killed themselves on my ripostes. This is because (afaik and feel free to correct me if I am mistaken) a riposte is a form of an auto attack and is therefore affected by CF. In short, since you are riposting 100% of the incoming attacks on you (by being backed into a corner) from Tsunami, each riposte you make from every single mob attacking you is turned into an AE double attack. I am not entirely sure if my mechanics theorys are completely correct, but I can verify that in practice, this works quite well and the more mobs you can aggro at once on pull with this combination the faster they kill themselves. Combine that with the 5 piece T2 or T3 hybrid set bonus that can proc a group heal when you melee attack, you can practically keep a group healed with this move as well if you have a dirge to increase your proc trigger rate. Just a little trick I worked out one day. Hope it helps some of you out there.

BChizzle

11-29-2009, 09:56 PM

<cite>Saphirewind@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote> This is because (afaik and feel free to correct me if I am mistaken) a riposte is a form of an auto attack and is therefore affected by CF. In short, since you are riposting 100% of the incoming attacks on you (by being backed into a corner) from Tsunami, each riposte you make from every single mob attacking you is turned into an AE double attack. I am not entirely sure if my mechanics theorys are completely correct, but I can verify that in practice, this works quite well and the more mobs you can aggro at once on pull with this combination the faster they kill themselves. </blockquote>This is wrong, but the thought is right using tsunami when pulling rooms is great because every time the mobs swing at you they are dealt riposte dmg which really adds up when you have 20 mobs on you.

Morgane

12-02-2009, 05:41 PM

Yeesh, some things never change. A year ago this forum looked exactly the same, with most Monks begging SOE to do something, anything, to increase raid desireability for the brawler class and the same one or two persons arguing with and harassing everyone else.A year later (which I've spent rolling, leveling and gearing up a class that will actually get me a raid spot ), I come back to see what's going on with Monks and... guess what? Nothing. Same old same old. Monks are in the same rut and brawlers are still begging SOE to do something with the class. My advice (if you want a regular raid spot, that is... because Monks are still a darn good solo class) is to retire your Monk, spend the time rollling another class and leave these sad forums to the trolls, who will then probably turn on each other simply for lack of anyone else to disagree with. LOL

Aull

12-02-2009, 06:12 PM

For some reason people tend to always look for the bad, pitiful, or anything else that is negative before looking at anything positive. Not saying that monks or brawlers do not have issues.SOE needs to get an "active" class representative to get on these forums and start communicating with the players. One developer trying to answer for guards, zerks, sks, paladins, monks, bruisers has failed.A simple class or sub class update every thirty or forty five days would not be a bad idea. Possibly explaining anything that is currently under review or fixing pre exsisting issues would be great.Lack of communication and procastination is hurting this game. Not acting on known issues within an alotted time is also a huge bane that makes many ask "does SOE give a rats a@@".This has been the best game that I have played, but it has lost a large margin of ground this year.Once the huge communication rift between players and devs happens I think there will be much less confusion and upsets with players. Basically a great deal of communication and alot more action would be nice.

BChizzle

12-02-2009, 10:49 PM

<cite>Morghasi@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>My advice (if you want a regular raid spot, that is... because Monks are still a darn good solo class) is to retire your Monk, spend the time rollling another class and leave these sad forums to the trolls, who will then probably turn on each other simply for lack of anyone else to disagree with. LOL</blockquote>Why is it the people who offer this type of advice never follow it themselves? Sorry you weren't good enough to raid on your monk, that doesn't make all monks worthless. Enjoy your time playing a dirge, me personally I find the dirge class to be an absolute bore. But you know I prefer playing a class that can actually do things besides buff others, to each their own I guess.

Morgane

12-03-2009, 12:52 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>Once the huge communication rift between players and devs happens I think there will be much less confusion and upsets with players. Basically a great deal of communication and alot more action would be nice.</blockquote>True, but in all fairness, the fighter revamp was a good idea and would have been good for brawlers, but I guess the uproar from a lot of the player base nixed that idea. I remember huge threads and heated arguments about that fighter revamp. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" />

Morgane

12-03-2009, 12:58 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Morghasi@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>My advice (if you want a regular raid spot, that is... because Monks are still a darn good solo class) is to retire your Monk, spend the time rollling another class and leave these sad forums to the trolls, who will then probably turn on each other simply for lack of anyone else to disagree with. LOL</blockquote>Why is it the people who offer this type of advice never follow it themselves? Sorry you weren't good enough to raid on your monk, that doesn't make all monks worthless. Enjoy your time playing a dirge, me personally I find the dirge class to be an absolute bore. But you know I prefer playing a class that can actually do things besides buff others, to each their own I guess.</blockquote>Aw Chizzy... you must think I care about your opinion. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />I raided with my monk, darlin. But let me spell it out for you... most raids only roll with one brawler class. They'd rather have several plate tanks than two or three brawlers. This means that quite a few Monks get passed over when the RL starts building the raid. For solo play we're great... for most groups, we're just fine (an AOE taunt ability would be nice but whatever). For raids? Not so much... we need more raid desirability, which requires making us stronger tanks or higher dps.

Aull

12-03-2009, 01:04 PM

There were great ideas with the fighter revamp but I think it had other bad areas that would have made tanking stink.Fighters like the warriors and brawlers need better chances at holding aggro than they do now. The fighter revamp would have made aggro lock down so easy that there would be no chance of any dps class ripping aggro which would take a great deal of excitement out of the game.Forcing tanks to use defensive stance as the only means of aggro retention was for the dogs. Offensive stance for fighters generating less and less hate yet scouts in offensive stance generation more and more hate didn't make sense.Sorry for the rambling.

Morgane

12-03-2009, 04:38 PM

Ramble away. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I think in the end, it comes down to what you want to do in the game. If soloing/occasional grouping is what you'll be doing than I think the monk is more than able to handle that. TSO mobs get a little hairy for a tanking monk because you have to constantly be switching targets... more than a few mobs and this gets old fast.But if you intend to raid in this game, I'd say forget it and just roll another class. Some folks here might think they are some sort of one-man raid by listening to them blather on, but the majority of brawlers are going to be fairly limited as far as raiding goes. Sure, you might get lucky enough to get into a guild starting out and grab the brawler spot on the roster. Or maybe you'll act as back up brawler until the main raiding brawler gets bored or takes a break. Other than that, good luck getting a regular raid spot.Maybe SOE never intended brawlers to be raiders? Perhaps there should be a warning that flashes across your screen when you roll a Monk... "WARNING! ALERT! This class is best suited for solo and group play. Do not roll this class if raiding is end-goal."Anyway... I wish you all the best of luck. I really do like the class... just would like to see us have a bit more raid desireability.

Aull

12-03-2009, 05:37 PM

<cite>Morghasi@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ramble away. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />I think in the end, it comes down to what you want to do in the game. If soloing/occasional grouping is what you'll be doing than I think the monk is more than able to handle that. TSO mobs get a little hairy for a tanking monk because you have to constantly be switching targets... more than a few mobs and this gets old fast.But if you intend to raid in this game, I'd say forget it and just roll another class. Some folks here might think they are some sort of one-man raid by listening to them blather on, but the majority of brawlers are going to be fairly limited as far as raiding goes. Sure, you might get lucky enough to get into a guild starting out and grab the brawler spot on the roster. Or maybe you'll act as back up brawler until the main raiding brawler gets bored or takes a break. Other than that, good luck getting a regular raid spot.Maybe SOE never intended brawlers to be raiders? Perhaps there should be a warning that flashes across your screen when you roll a Monk... "WARNING! ALERT! This class is best suited for solo and group play. Do not roll this class if raiding is end-goal."Anyway... I wish you all the best of luck. I really do like the class... just would like to see us have a bit more raid desireability.</blockquote>LOL! It would really be nice if the classes had better descriptions than what they do now. If I had known that paladins are actually better aoe than zerkers (non-mythicaled) then I would have never rolled a zerker to begin with.

BChizzle

12-03-2009, 05:53 PM

<cite>Morghasi@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ramble away. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />I think in the end, it comes down to what you want to do in the game. If soloing/occasional grouping is what you'll be doing than I think the monk is more than able to handle that. TSO mobs get a little hairy for a tanking monk because you have to constantly be switching targets... more than a few mobs and this gets old fast.But if you intend to raid in this game, I'd say forget it and just roll another class. Some folks here might think they are some sort of one-man raid by listening to them blather on, but the majority of brawlers are going to be fairly limited as far as raiding goes. Sure, you might get lucky enough to get into a guild starting out and grab the brawler spot on the roster. Or maybe you'll act as back up brawler until the main raiding brawler gets bored or takes a break. Other than that, good luck getting a regular raid spot.Maybe SOE never intended brawlers to be raiders? Perhaps there should be a warning that flashes across your screen when you roll a Monk... "WARNING! ALERT! This class is best suited for solo and group play. Do not roll this class if raiding is end-goal."Anyway... I wish you all the best of luck. I really do like the class... just would like to see us have a bit more raid desireability.</blockquote>/yawnYou do realize most of the top raids guilds in this game use a brawler right? Fact is with 3-4 tank spots open in a raid guild and 6 tanks not every guild is going to need you, it is just as likely that a zerker can say the exact same thing about finding a home to raid. As far as PUG's go if they don't take a monk then they are just stupid since our raidwide is huge in a group thats not used to raiding together.

Morgane

12-03-2009, 06:55 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>/yawnYou do realize most of the top raids guilds in this game use a brawler right? Fact is with 3-4 tank spots open in a raid guild and 6 tanks not every guild is going to need you, it is just as likely that a zerker can say the exact same thing about finding a home to raid. As far as PUG's go if they don't take a monk then they are just stupid since our raidwide is huge in a group thats not used to raiding together.</blockquote>You made my point. "a brawler" as opposed to three or four plate tanks. And while "a brawler" is nice to have, it's certainly not going to be a raid-breaker if one isn't present. In fact I'd venture to guess that depending on the raid, some RL's would prefer more utility or more dps.And I've said all along that monks are fine for solo and group play, so I'm not sure what your point is in brinding that up.

Morgane

12-03-2009, 06:55 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>LOL! It would really be nice if the classes had better descriptions than what they do now. If I had known that paladins are actually better aoe than zerkers (non-mythicaled) then I would have never rolled a zerker to begin with.</blockquote>Agreed!

BChizzle

12-03-2009, 07:26 PM

<cite>Morghasi@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>You made my point. "a brawler" as opposed to three or four plate tanks. And while "a brawler" is nice to have, it's certainly not going to be a raid-breaker if one isn't present. In fact I'd venture to guess that depending on the raid, some RL's would prefer more utility or more dps.And I've said all along that monks are fine for solo and group play, so I'm not sure what your point is in brinding that up. </blockquote>Its not a raid breaker if you dont have <insert any tank> what is your point? Monks are great raid play they have an excellent raidwide they can tank any mob in this game and they put out decent dps.

Morgane

12-03-2009, 09:09 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Monks are great raid play they have an excellent raidwide they can tank any mob in this game and they put out decent dps.</blockquote>Yeah, they're perfect. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /> I'll have what he's having, please... must be some good stuff.

BChizzle

12-03-2009, 10:41 PM

<cite>Morghasi@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah, they're perfect. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /> I'll have what he's having, please... must be some good stuff.</blockquote>Stick to your buff bot, the concept is too difficult for you to grasp.

Morgane

12-04-2009, 11:38 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Morghasi@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah, they're perfect. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /> I'll have what he's having, please... must be some good stuff.</blockquote>Stick to your buff bot, the concept is too difficult for you to grasp.</blockquote>Are there psyhcological reasons for your constant need to insult everyone who disagrees with you? I'm sure some of your guildmates would love to hear your view on their class. Although I tend to think you are simply being ugly to get under my skin. FAIL <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" />Monks are a good class... I'd like to see them made a bit more viable for raiding. Which is why I'd like to see us have a little TLC from the devs. There ARE issues, and they should be addressed. All your puffery doesn't change that.

BChizzle

12-04-2009, 08:07 PM

<cite>Morghasi@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Are there psyhcological reasons for your constant need to insult everyone who disagrees with you? I'm sure some of your guildmates would love to hear your view on their class. Although I tend to think you are simply being ugly to get under my skin. FAIL <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" />Monks are a good class... I'd like to see them made a bit more viable for raiding. Which is why I'd like to see us have a little TLC from the devs. There ARE issues, and they should be addressed. All your puffery doesn't change that.</blockquote>You came to the monk forum and told monks to reroll their classes and that monks are basically worthless. Not only that but you also told them they should just leave these forums yet you still keep coming back. Basically you came here to talk trash about the monk class because you couldn't hack it and had to roll a buff bot to get a place in raids. You insulted a whole class in this game don't QQ if I point out that your bitterness is because you just weren't that good at playing a monk.

Morgane

12-05-2009, 11:37 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You came to the monk forum and told monks to reroll their classes and that monks are basically worthless. Not only that but you also told them they should just leave these forums yet you still keep coming back. Basically you came here to talk trash about the monk class because you couldn't hack it and had to roll a buff bot to get a place in raids. You insulted a whole class in this game don't QQ if I point out that your bitterness is because you just weren't that good at playing a monk.</blockquote>I came to the Monk forums because I HAVE a monk, have played a monk for over two years, have raided with my Monk, have solo'd with my Monk and have grouped with my Monk. I have a right to post my frustration with lack of dev attention to the class and you can stuff it if you don't like it. I have not trash talked monks, but nice try attempting to make up facts for yourself. I said, and please allow me to draw you a picture if you STILL can't get it through your thick skull: Monks are great soloers... Monks do ok in groups... Monks need help in a raid-setting. What I actually "said", which you seem to have ignored in your ignorance and your attempts to constantly be right... is that if someone wants to raid, they can probably save themselves a lot of frustration by rolling another class until the devs can fix our issues. You made my very point!!!! by saying what I had already said... most raids roll with ONE brawler. Some don't even need/want that. That leaves alot of us in the dust and frustrated because raids would rather have something else... another plate tank, utility (oh so worthless in your opinion), more dps.It seems that you have no problem getting into a raid... that's just jim dandy fine for you, buddy... but this "I have mine so screw you" attitude is just classic BChizzle.One only has to look at your posting history to find many, many, many examples of threads in this and other forums that have degenerated into flame wars becasuse you, sir, are a flaming troll who can only feel superior by insulting others. YOU accuse me of insulting a class (which I did not) and turn around and do the exact same thing. You distort facts, strut around these forums like a puffed up banty rooster, exhaulting to all who can stand to listen to you about your prowess and how you can do this fine, just fine! so what's your problem?I never said Monks were worthless so you can take your distorted view of what I said and stuff it. My opinion still stands... we are fine in most group setting and for solo play we rock (notice how I said that AGAIN... in the vain hopes that your wee little brain can process it) but in raid setting we need some help. If you don't agree with me than that is certainly your right but the fact that you feel you have to constantly insult me is where you turn into nothing but a petulent troll who can't have a debate without resorting to insults and falsehoods.I see now why you do not make your player information public.Back to you, Chizzy... I've got all day, bud.

BChizzle

12-05-2009, 11:40 AM

Morgane

12-05-2009, 11:50 AM

BChizzle

12-05-2009, 12:11 PM

<cite>Morghasi@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aww... I think I see what the problem is now. I mentioned "trolls" and you immediately popped up on the defensive!LOL - Too funny.</blockquote>Yes it is funny how the ones who usually mention trolls are being trolls in their posts. I am still waiting for you to follow your own advice, I mean seriously you give advice that you don't follow yourself, I wonder what the means about anything you might say.

Morgane

12-05-2009, 01:09 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes it is funny how the ones who usually mention trolls are being trolls in their posts. I am still waiting for you to follow your own advice, I mean seriously you give advice that you don't follow yourself, I wonder what the means about anything you might say.</blockquote>LOL yeah yeah... ok Chizzy ok. I'll let you have the last word if it'll sooth your hurt feelings.

BChizzle

12-05-2009, 01:25 PM

<cite>Morghasi@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>LOL yeah yeah... ok Chizzy ok. I'll let you have the last word if it'll sooth your hurt feelings.</blockquote>The fact is you are just the next guy in the long line of people that seem to like to come on the monk forums usually about once a month and cry about a class they either don't play anymore or don't play effectively and won't take anyones advice on how to play effectively. There is PLENTY of evidence which has even had a bunch provided in this very thread on how effective a monk can be in this game. It is ok someone will take up your mantle next month too and we will have to listen to the same old song yet again. In the meantime the monk population that stuck it out in this class will chuckle like I do on our little secret...monks are awesome and fun to play and so diverse and that feeling we get when we are in a group with people that have been here and bought into all the QQ drama about brawlers sucking and then they see how completely own we are well those comments we get are priceless, sucks your missing out tbh I seriously doubt you will find that feeling playing a buffbot.EDIT: I mean seriously its like...Oh we can't parse and I throw up 20k+ parses for everyone to see, then its like...Oh we can't tank and I throw up a video of me tanking seriously hard raid mobs. What else do you guys need?

Morgane

12-05-2009, 02:00 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>The fact is you are just the next guy in the long line of people that seem to like to come on the monk forums usually about once a month and cry about a class they either don't play anymore or don't play effectively and won't take anyones advice on how to play effectively. There is PLENTY of evidence which has even had a bunch provided in this very thread on how effective a monk can be in this game. It is ok someone will take up your mantle next month too and we will have to listen to the same old song yet again. In the meantime the monk population that stuck it out in this class will chuckle like I do on our little secret...monks are awesome and fun to play and so diverse and that feeling we get when we are in a group with people that have been here and bought into all the QQ drama about brawlers sucking and then they see how completely own we are well those comments we get are priceless, sucks your missing out tbh I seriously doubt you will find that feeling playing a buffbot.EDIT: I mean seriously its like...Oh we can't parse and I throw up 20k+ parses for everyone to see, then its like...Oh we can't tank and I throw up a video of me tanking seriously hard raid mobs. What else do you guys need?</blockquote>Done now? Feel better?<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Morgane

12-05-2009, 02:06 PM

As an aside... I used to post here all the time. I got tired of being insulted by you... repeatedly. Endlessly. To just about every post I made here. There's no reason for all that and you should not be allowed to continuously do it, but yet here you are day in and day out, insulting people who don't agree with you.I read the monk forum every week... it's my hope that some sort of figher revamp will come back to the table. I simply stopped adding my opinion because you lurk on this forum waiting to pounce on anyone who doesn't agree with you.I love the Monk class... always have. And I hope they address some of the issues we have. You seem to be of the opinion that we are perfect the way we are. So be it. You're allowed to have your opinion, just as others are allowed to have theirs.

Gorjuss

12-17-2009, 02:39 PM

Honestly, I love my Monk, Elevane is dps specc'd and dps geared her dps is fairly high but since so many people view the monk class as "shiny farmers" I would have to agree, I would love to have some love from the Devs. Ele parces between 3k-6k but that's not enough to be considered dps when I am looking for a raid. Getting her myth was a pita because I was constantly told "no fighters" I can and have tanked Seb but tanking isn't what she's set up for. I prefer not to tank although I have grouped with tanking monks. I just think it would be great to see a little more of one or the other for the Brawler class. I love her and will keep playing her but until I can get into raids with my "shiny farmer" I suppose I will be playing my defiler for raids <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" />

circusgirl

12-18-2009, 07:41 PM

I love playing my monk. Its fun, interesting, versatile, and I truly feel useful on our raids, especially on those hard mobs like Ykesha. Are we perfect? no. Do some things need to be fixed? yes.But I do think we'd be much better off registering for Beta and giving solid feedback about what needs to be fixed than we are trying to convince each other that we suck.

Aull

12-18-2009, 09:41 PM

Awesome advise Vinka. I myself fell into the "oh my class sucks" and made comments on the forums that was no where near as bad as I stated it to be and I offically apologize to you all.Thing is we all need to be honest about the info we type here on the forums. Giving false info might help in the short run but can lead to nerfs later down the road and I wouldn't want that for monks and bruisers.

BChizzle

12-19-2009, 12:11 AM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>Awesome advise Vinka. I myself fell into the "oh my class sucks" and made comments on the forums that was no where near as bad as I stated it to be and I offically apologize to you all.Thing is we all need to be honest about the info we type here on the forums. Giving false info might help in the short run but can lead to nerfs later down the road and I wouldn't want that for monks and bruisers.</blockquote>Its easy to do man, especially when you feel like just a tweak here or there would really bring us in line with everyone else. We can't change what happened this year but the fact is had the fighter changes gone through we would have been alot more powerful, instead it got scrapped and we got scrapped. That doesn't mean we can't do our jobs though because I can tell you I can and have tanked everything there is to tank in TSO and done it much more effectively out of any of the expansions. We are stronger then we have ever been there is more +mit choice out there then I can ever recall to tighten the mit gap and our avoidance has never been higher (Not counting strikethrough of course).