Raiding Pally

[holly_bear003]

<p>I have been playing my paladin for a long time and I noticed that as a lvl 80 I cants seem to hold mobs as well as other Pally's. I joined a raiding guild and I think I really need to respec my toon. This are the lines I took. Any help would be great.</p><p>Crusader:</p><p>Str-8, 6, 4,5 ,1</p><p>Sta-4, 4, ,4, 8</p><p>Wis- 8, 4, 4, 6, 1</p><p>Paladin:</p><p>Healing/Support/Wraths to the bottom of the lines.</p><p>I thought this would be a good way to go but maybe I messed up along the way. Before I repec her I want to make sure I have the right lines for maximum defense to be very tanky!</p><p>-Holly</p>

[Boli32]

<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=458663" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=458663</a></p><p>just like 8 posts further down under the name "paladin specs", second post.</p>

[Nikadaimon]

<p>wis = healing spec.. (if I remember correctly.. )</p><p>Better go for Int </p><p>Str  4,4,8,8,2Sta 4,4,8,8,2Int 4,4,8,1</p><p>how much AA you got? </p><p>The difference really kicks in around 170-180AA to my opinion...</p>

[Kigneer]

<p><cite>Nikadaimon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Better go for Int </p><p>Str  4,4,8,8,2Sta 4,4,8,8,2Int 4,4,8,1 </p></blockquote><p>As a raid tank, a Pally isn't going to burn down the baddies, he'll be trying to hold them while the DPS crowd does that (the opposite is true for a MA/OT Paladin). STR line all the way down; STA all the way down; WIS is probably a good choice for the group buffs it can offer plus max power, but if you have anti-fear gear it's not necessary to go down the complete line, which will leave some AAs for INT.</p><p>Still recommend going down the AGI tree to Trample (auto-attack will be much more powerful than spells, especially with a Myth and +melee crits and +double attack. The most powerful attacks I have with just a fabled weapon is with auto-attack. Smite Evil and Refusal of Atonement are great spells, but the damage is half that with Smite Evil on other baddies that aren't undead; and Refusal of Atonement is a single target spell. Melee auto-attack makes no distinction. When buffed, expect 6k+ double hits to be common with a Fabled, more so with a Myth -- which is why I believe the devs made sure some instances that a Pally has to disable Trample. High double attack chance, and you can cook a baddie/baddies without losing power, too).</p><p>It's important to note that SKs are spell/AoE tanks and their main 2 stats are STR/INT, where STR/WIS is what Paladins need. Besides the bonus of WIS with the fabled/epic, makes no sense just to go down the INT line just for some extra spell damage. Marr's Favor engages frequently enough that it makes up for a tad less in the INT line (and that extra 500-600 AoE damage is better than the AA +Spell crits that offer less damage, anyway -- and Marr's Favor rarely misses).</p><p>Any <strong>passive</strong> CA/spell you can have is better -- so up that Trample +melee crits and +double attacks and raise WIS as much as possible (ideally at or close to 1000 in Wrath Stance, unbuffed). Then add as much +parry as you can, you'll not only stay up with less need to heal/ward, you can actually do *some* dps as well.</p><p>Too many Paladins ignore WIS in the misconception INT is "where it's at" because it's so tempting to join the DPS types. But a Paladin needs all stats, and we can't compete with dedicated classes -- like SKs for spell damage/hate gain over time; Guardians for overall mit (why +parry is so essential if you're going to be a meat tank, which further will reduce your INT anyway as you'll be in Knight Stance mode, not Wrath); Bezerkers for melee DPS.</p>

[Boli32]

<p>+parry and +defensive gear waste of time as you gear up; and whilst the wisdom stat is *nice* for the proc from your myth... it is not gonna win any awards either; in general you ignore your "stats" such as int, wis, str etc.. and just choose gear on pure merits alone.</p><p>Below is pretty much the ONLY specs you should be thinking about; wisdom line is a joke.</p><p><span ><p style="padding-left: 30px;">> One DPS/Instance/Add spec (taking trample from the Agility line)</p><p style="padding-left: 30px;">> One pure Tank Spec (taking Divine Aura from the Stamina Line)</p><p style="padding-left: 30px;">In both cases you:</p><p style="padding-left: 30px;">> Get full Strength Line, Spell Crits from inteligence line on the Crusader Tree</p><p style="padding-left: 30px;">> Get "Cure Spells", "Smite Evil" and "Blocking Mastery" from the Paladin tree</p><p style="padding-left: 30px;">> Get "Knights Stance", enhance your Blessed Weapon damage, your regenerating ward, Faithful Cry and "Aura of the Crusader".</p></span></p>

[Kigneer]

<p><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>+parry and +defensive gear waste of time as you gear up</p></blockquote><p>He's a 80 level raiding Paladin being specced for <strong>defensive</strong> tanking, Boli. At that stage yes +parry and +defensive matter (and gear to seek if he's MTing, as any meat tank needs to survive). Crit mit by itself is a joke. The tanks I've seen without it just die, and why the defensive tanks I know load up on +parry like Mages on +spell crits.</p><p>@ Holly -- Make sure to go down the Hero line for the blocking mastery. The shield is a mainstay in TSO. Get every adorn you can that riposites/parrys as well (even the cheaper +4 parry ones will do for the forearms as they stack. If you can afford the T8 ones for the wrists (and have decent bracelets), and the Balanced Ayr Stone on the myth, that's a 9% riposite/parry. With the raid food/drink that's additional 4.4% parry -- pure defensive tankage. What doesn't hit you doesn't need to be healed/warded. Also put AAs in the TSO taunts to go along with the AAs for hate gain in the STR line -- big hate improvement. Faithful Cry is the godsend for initial hate gain and building it (it's also an excellent single target puller), use it religiously. This spec will also help you since there's just 1 AA saved profile, and this can double as a solo/group one (as folks don't raid 24/7) and will help when losing the healing line power reduction/reuse speed AAs and STR (the penalty for being defensive) which will lower max power.</p>

[Boli32]

<p>This is about a "raiding pally spec and setup".. .not an instance one where untill debuffs are in parry and defence are pretty much 0; after debuffs are in a scout could tank the mob most of the time.</p><p>uncontested avoidance may be nerfed thanks to strikethrough but it is still valid.. more valid than a simple +4 parry is on an item anyways.</p>

[Theren]

Every time a Pally specs wisdom God kills a kitten.... Please think of the Kittens!!!! STR 4-4-8-6-2 STA 4-4-8-6-2 (yes i have DA [Removed for Content] off) INT 4-4-8 AGI 4-1 (Joust is fun)

[Kigneer]

<p><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This is about a "raiding pally spec and setup".. .not an instance one where untill debuffs are in parry and defence are pretty much 0; after debuffs are in a scout could tank the mob most of the time.</p><p>uncontested avoidance may be nerfed thanks to strikethrough but it is still valid.. more valid than a simple +4 parry is on an item anyways.</p></blockquote><p>This is exactly the setup I see of raiding Pally MTs coming out of ToMC. Yes, it's an instance, but it's a raid zone regardless (we don't know what raiding his guild does, anyway).</p><p>Been experimenting with parry and/or straight mit, and the difference between them are night and day -- especially how much of a mob you can hold and mow down with +parry/+1000 WIS (not AA but via gear)/Trample.</p>

[Maamadex]

<p>What Boli said is pretty much standard raid pally philosophy.</p><p>Here is some advice for you Kigneer since you seem deadset on adding your ignorant perspective on things here and elsewhere. Join a guild of skilled players, raid with them and let it sink in. Get some gear, some perspective on actual raiding end game content or anything of the sort and let it color your perceptions a bit before you talk about things you have no idea about. You may find yourself agreeing with some of these folks if you do.</p>

[Kigneer]

<p><cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What Boli said is pretty much standard raid pally philosophy.</p><p>Here is some advice for you Kigneer since you seem deadset on adding your ignorant perspective on things here and elsewhere. Join a guild of skilled players, raid with them and let it sink in. Get some gear, some perspective on actual raiding end game content or anything of the sort and let it color your perceptions a bit before you talk about things you have no idea about. You may find yourself agreeing with some of these folks if you do.</p></blockquote><p>If the game was so cookie-cutter, we certainly wouldn't have choices. Something for the ignorant to remember.</p><p>The choices are for those who play, not those who try to impose an idea at any expense.</p>

[Maamadex]

<p>Just friendly advice, take it or leave it. /shrug</p>

[Kigneer]

<p><cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">friendly</span> advice, take it or leave it. /shrug</p></blockquote><p>/shrug</p><p>Now that that's settled, there is no "one way" to play a raiding Paladin. There's so many setups for different playstyles even for raiders and what role they play. To have the "only/should/must" added to it, is just plain wrong.</p>

[Maamadex]

<p>I guess the questions would be what have you raided? Why don't you have gear? Why don't you even have your myth? Why are you even here discussing what raid paladins do? Is it all secondhand? Don't give advice if you are woefully inadequate to the task. I'm not being mean here, these are honest questions. What makes you think you know what raid paladins do? Or anyone for that matter who raids?</p>

[Maamadex]

<p><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>+parry and +defensive gear waste of time as you gear up; and whilst the wisdom stat is *nice* for the proc from your myth... it is not gonna win any awards either; in general you ignore your "stats" such as int, wis, str etc.. and just choose gear on pure merits alone.</p><p>Below is pretty much the ONLY specs you should be thinking about; wisdom line is a joke.</p><p><span><p style="padding-left: 30px;">> One DPS/Instance/Add spec (taking trample from the Agility line)</p><p style="padding-left: 30px;">> One pure Tank Spec (taking Divine Aura from the Stamina Line)</p><p style="padding-left: 30px;">In both cases you:</p><p style="padding-left: 30px;">> Get full Strength Line, Spell Crits from inteligence line on the Crusader Tree</p><p style="padding-left: 30px;">> Get "Cure Spells", "Smite Evil" and "Blocking Mastery" from the Paladin tree</p><p style="padding-left: 30px;">> Get "Knights Stance", enhance your Blessed Weapon damage, your regenerating ward, Faithful Cry and "Aura of the Crusader".</p></span></p></blockquote><p>I stand by these statements, this is all good advice for a paladin wanting to raid.</p>

[Kigneer]

<p><cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I guess the questions would be what have you raided? Why don't you have gear? Why don't you even have your myth? Why are you even here discussing what raid paladins do? Is it all secondhand? Don't give advice if you are woefully inadequate to the task. I'm not being mean here, these are honest questions. What makes you think you know what raid paladins do? Or anyone for that matter who raids?</p></blockquote><p>I raid on my schedule, Maam. It's that plain and simple. And this isn't a thread about me, anyway. Take your personal conflicts to that forum dedicated for flames. Otherwise here, keep it professional.</p><p>Thank you. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Maamadex]

<p>You never answered my questions. I dunno why you think I have something against you personally, I don't know you. I just hate misinformation and tried to pin down exactly why you pursue in spreading it. I really hate it when someone tries to talk about something they have no firsthand knowledge of, bugs me sorry.</p><p>Thank you too and g'day</p>

[Nikadaimon]

<p>I got confused somewhere between you 2 fighting over eachother <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p><p>Do you state that the +parry isnt any good??  What should we focus on then according to you?</p>

[Maamadex]

<p>Just read what Boli said and go with that. I'd give the same advice.</p>

[Kigneer]

<p><cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just read what Boli said and go with that. I'd give the same advice.</p></blockquote><p>He asked you a question about +parry but you never answered. Can you explain why +parry isn't suited for him? Off the top of your head, even?</p><p><em>...Just saw a 15k HP fabled out raider decked out in +parry gear an hour ago...</em></p>

[Maamadex]

<p>% parry is really good on wrists, lets just say that. I think sages make those adorns.</p>

[Zergosch]

<p>Parry is something nice to have, by myself i got over 500 parry and def at raids. Which means, it doesn´t hurt if you loose some points if you put on another item without parry.</p><p>First i speced my pala for cirt cast + da + fear immun. Another setup which stay till now, maxed crit melee + da + fear immun. Last one works like charm, if raid is proper and you can get over 200 speed.</p><p>With that kind of spec i can mt even without amends <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (colletral happend as my amends target died ^^)</p>

[Boli32]

<p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just read what Boli said and go with that. I'd give the same advice.</p></blockquote><p>He asked you a question about +parry but you never answered. Can you explain why +parry isn't suited for him? Off the top of your head, even?</p><p><em>...Just saw a 15k HP fabled out raider decked out in +parry gear an hour ago...</em></p></blockquote><p>Point 1. +parry is on fabled gear.. but I seriously doubt he choose it JUST for that stat.</p><p>Point 2. 15k heath raider.... nice.... if we're comparsing health I have 17.5k solo buffed and I still need some items.</p><p>Point 3. Contested avoidance and Uncontested avoidance.... do a search for those terms; come back when you've read up on it.</p><p>Point 4. Seriously... at least go anon if you want to give advice on being a raiding paladin if when we do a search for you and find you don't even have your myth and not a bit of decent raid gear. i.e. you are geared like an INSTANCE tank.. not a raiding tank</p><p>Point 5. There *ARE* choices in how you want to spec your AAs... I laid it our specfically to give the minimum required for a raiding paladin (and the two different specs we use).. the rest of the points will change and shift depending on your playstyle.</p><p>Point 6. The answer to the question is.... +parry for the sake of +parry is a waste of time.</p><p>Point 7. If you continue to give miss-informaiton out about paladins in the end game raiding you are only harming the class as a whole.</p><p>Point 8. You are an instance tank; ergo stop giving advice about raid tanking... they are completly different ways of gearing up, AA specing and even mentality, the moment you start raiding halfway decent mobs you'll start to realise this and regret arguing here so please PLEASE, if someone asks about specing towards and gearing towards being a raid pally... listen, read, but don't push your views forwards.</p>

[Kigneer]

<p><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Point 7. If you continue to give miss-informaiton out about paladins in the end game raiding you are only harming the class as a whole.</p><p>Point 8. You are an instance tank; ergo stop giving advice about raid tanking... they are completly different ways of gearing up, AA specing and even mentality, the moment you start raiding halfway decent mobs you'll start to realise this and regret arguing here so please PLEASE, if someone asks about specing towards and gearing towards being a raid pally... listen, read, but don't push your views forwards.</p></blockquote><p><em>When the subject becomes the person, the accuser has lost the debate. Debating 101.</em></p><p>What some of you guys need to do is just stop giving end-game advice to those <strong>still building their tank</strong>. Enough confusion out there as it is, to come across a tank (as I mentor a lot) who reads such threads and still dumbfounded as they're short of AAs and wonder why they can't perform like others. It's bad enough that I have to clear up the mess that's sprouted, as they don't have the gear; the AAs or the experience with zones and beasties. You kill more tanks with this cookie-cutter approach than not, as it's a chore to keep a new tank tanking when they're frustrated.</p><p>He sought advice to build his tank, not race to the finish line tomorrow. It would help that you read, not copy/paste suggestions as well. It's the individual and their play style, not some template that matters.</p>

[Maamadex]

<p>Well the whole problem is, this isn't endgame advice. It holds true no matter what on earth you are doing. It holds true whether you are doing PR or Avatars for godsakes.If you wanna debate take a few individual points that are inaccurate and point them out to us. If anyone spreads confusion it is you. What are you disagreeing with? There isn't a whole lot of room for variation if one is talking about the ideal raiding pally philosophy in terms of gear, spec, etc. There are things that will help you be a good raid tank, and those that don't. Boli put them all succinctly.</p>

[Oglock]

<p>@Kigneer</p><p>I've been raiding on my pally since the beginning of the year, I've since seen cleared all of ROK's (non avatar) mobs/zones, and since TSO Tomc/Palace up to and including Mynzak, I couldn't have done this without following the suggestions of those that know how to raid on a pally like Boli.   I've got my 5 set tso (If only the dam legs pattern dropped) and about 16k HP.</p><p>If I switched to your suggestion of wis line who knows it might work, but heres the problem, now because I'm not avoiding as many attacks and trying to soak them up, the healers in the raid are healing me more often instead of looking after everyone, their power is draining faster, the chanters have to power feed them more regularly so their dps drops a bit, my raid leader is shouting at everyone to get their dps up to where it should be, but its not their fault, its mine for Wis that lead to this problem. Oh and my raid leader is also shouting at me to get my dps up too cus I don't have enough spell crit.</p><p>Avoidance is really important, If you let us know what mobs you raid perhaps we can all contribute a reason why the spec you use works and where it will have difficulties. </p>

[Kigneer]

<p><cite>Oglock@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>my raid leader is shouting at everyone to get their dps up to where it should be, but its not their fault, its mine for Wis that lead to this problem. Oh and my raid leader is also shouting at me to get my dps up too cus I don't have enough spell crit.</p></blockquote><p>This is funny. First, we get folks who claim they *never* have problems with hate gain/aggro control (which is contradicted by other Paladin claims). Then we get folks who claim, avoidance isn't important (contradicted again by other Paladins in full +parry gear, heck, even going down the AGI line even). And now we have folks who claim WIS isn't important, too (again contradicted).</p><p>Then when Paladins come to these types of threads and read the suggestions, and they apply it to themselves, they wonder why they aren't improving, either. Why? Because these players aren't playing Paladins anymore, they want to be dps tanks with heals, instead.</p><p>If your raid leader wants a dps tank, he should get one. Paladins don't have dps, even if your spell crits were at 100% and a Dirge was chained to your side.</p>

[Maamadex]

<p>Kigneer, sigh. Wis isn't important its a secondary stat. We use it, but it isn't something to focus upon. The Wis spec itself is worse than useless. Once again Kigneer, +parry isn't completely useless but its not something to focus upon either if you exclude other things. Look up contested/uncontested avoidance please. And agi? ROFL. Yeah we focus on AGI line for the avoidance boost....uh-huh. Hey, look up a thing called strikethrough too. Every tank uses DPS to hold aggro. Saying paladins dont is just plain ridiculous. Just because you do not believe in it cause well, you are you, don't apply the statement to others. The heading says "Raiding Pally". Learn what that is.</p>

[Boli32]

<p>For the record:</p><p>Avoidance is made up of two parts, uncontested and contested; contested avoidance works thus:</p><p>Mob attacks you and their "crushing" skill is factored against your "parry" skill, a level 80 mob vs a level 80 paladin with no skill increasers will have a crushing of "400" against a parry of "400"; this will mean there is say a 20% chance of you parrying the attack.</p><p>This is the basic avoidance check, but it is factored against both your parry and the mobs crushing, so say you have a 500 parry and the mob had a 400 crushing there will be a 30% chance to avoid this attack. Debuffing the mob's +crushing  to say 300 crushing will increase this chance to say 40% chance to parry.</p><p>Now, all fine and dandy and youre prob thinking "ah HA I knew I was right +parry gear is important", but this is where things start to alter. First of all lets take a normal level 85 Orange raid mob so a basic check will check your 400 parry against a crushing value of 425, so your 20% chance to parry is reduced to say 15% chance to parry.</p><p>Increasing your parry to 500 vs the same level 85 mob will only give you say a 20% chance to parry... meaning you have increase you parry vastly to maintain the same parry rate as if the mob was level 80.</p><p>This however is only a small part of the story, when a mobs con colour changes to say yellow, orange or red this gives a modifier for the mob to hit; meaning you have to debuff the mobs +crushing skill even further in order for you to maintain the 20% chance to parry.</p><p>All these numbers are just made up.. but it shows how a contested attack roll works, it is checking against relative levels, relative skills, the skills can be altered by buffs and debuffs, the levels also can but rarer.</p><p>The table below demonstrates this contested check easier.</p> <table ><tbody><tr><td><span style="color: #ffffff;"> </span></td> <td><span style="color: #ffffff;">400 crushing</span></td> <td><span style="color: #ffffff;">500 crushing</span></td> <td><span style="color: #ffffff;">level 85</span></td></tr> <tr><td><span style="color: #ffffff;">400 parry</span></td> <td><span style="color: #ffffff;"> 20%</span></td> <td><span style="color: #ffffff;">15% </span></td> <td><span style="color: #ffffff;">10% </span></td></tr> <tr><td><span style="color: #ffffff;">500 parry</span></td> <td><span style="color: #ffffff;"> 25%</span></td> <td><span style="color: #ffffff;">20% </span></td> <td><span style="color: #ffffff;"> 15%</span></td></tr> <tr><td><span style="color: #ffffff;">Debuff mob by 100 crushing</span></td> <td><span style="color: #ffffff;"> 30%</span></td> <td><span style="color: #ffffff;">15%</span></td> <td><span style="color: #ffffff;">20% </span></td></tr></tbody></table><p>Now, that is just *normal* mobs... raid mobs work differently, there are two additional checks that need to be factored into it.</p><p>1. Raid mobs especially named raid mobs have an additional chance to hit the tank, it is the equivilent of the accuracy stat we have  on the Player side</p><p>2. Raid mobs, especially named mobs also have a strike-through check; meaning that even if you make the avoidance check the mob has like a 25% chance of striking through and hitting anyways.</p><p>Factoring in those we can alter the table as shown above to reflect this...</p> <table ><tbody><tr><td><span style="color: #ffffff;"> </span></td> <td><span style="color: #ffffff;">400 crushing</span></td> <td><span style="color: #ffffff;">500 crushing</span></td> <td><span style="color: #ffffff;">level 85</span></td></tr> <tr><td><span style="color: #ffffff;">400 parry</span></td> <td><span style="color: #ffffff;"> 5%</span></td> <td><span style="color: #ffffff;">2% </span></td> <td><span style="color: #ffffff;">1% </span></td></tr> <tr><td><span style="color: #ffffff;">500 parry</span></td> <td><span style="color: #ffffff;"> 10%</span></td> <td><span style="color: #ffffff;">5% </span></td> <td><span style="color: #ffffff;">2%</span></td></tr> <tr><td><span style="color: #ffffff;">Debuff mob by 100 crushing</span></td> <td><span style="color: #ffffff;"> 15%</span></td> <td><span style="color: #ffffff;">10%</span></td> <td><span style="color: #ffffff;">5% </span></td></tr></tbody></table><p>The more you debuff the mobs +crushing skill the higher chance you will have to parry, but the mob will STILL have the ability to strikethrough that successful avoidance check.</p><p>That is contested avoidance, and this happens both with +parry as well as +defence</p><p>UNCONTESTED avoidance however works differently, if say you have a 30% chance to block an attack, this is a 30% chance to block an attack and is separate from the skill checks of your parry and the mobs crushing and/or level</p><table ><tbody><tr><td><span style="color: #ffffff;"> </span></td> <td><span style="color: #ffffff;">400 crushing</span></td> <td><span style="color: #ffffff;">500 crushing</span></td> <td><span style="color: #ffffff;">level 85</span></td></tr> <tr><td><span style="color: #ffffff;">block (30%)</span></td> <td><span style="color: #ffffff;"> 30%</span></td> <td><span style="color: #ffffff;">30%</span></td> <td><span style="color: #ffffff;">30% </span></td></tr></tbody></table><p>The strikethrough check will still occur tho and the 30% chance against herioc mobs will be reduced to around 25% for raid mobs; but it is VASTLY better than the contested avoidance.</p><p>When an item/adorn says "% chance to parry an attack"; or "% chance to riposte an attack, this ia also uncontested avoidance.</p><p>In RoK loading up with uncontested avoidance items meant you could survive the hits from the raid mobs. with the strikethrough chance now in place with TSO this is less important but it is still a way of increasing your survibility.</p><p>I reach 80% avoidance in full MT spec and easily cap out +parry and +defence and have high AGI BUT... when you look at the parses this avoidance is a *lot* lower. my total uncontested avoidance is around 50% or so and on average my avoidance is close to 60% the majority of that coming from stoneskin checks, block, and fighter/cleric avoidance uncontested parry adorns make up most of the rest and finally contested avoidance prob makes 5% of my total avoidance and most of that *after* the mob has been debuffed.</p><p>We are not talking out of our behind when we say that +parry gear for the sake of +parry gear is useless in RAIDING. I hope you can read and understand WHY we say that capping out your parry is great sure.. but it doesn't give the bonuses seen by hovering over your avoidance score.</p><p>Next week I'll talk about wisdom and show whilst it is NICE... it like parry should not be concentrated upon. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Point 7. If you continue to give miss-informaiton out about paladins in the end game raiding you are only harming the class as a whole.</p><p>Point 8. You are an instance tank; ergo stop giving advice about raid tanking... they are completly different ways of gearing up, AA specing and even mentality, the moment you start raiding halfway decent mobs you'll start to realise this and regret arguing here so please PLEASE, if someone asks about specing towards and gearing towards being a raid pally... listen, read, but don't push your views forwards.</p></blockquote><p><em>When the subject becomes the person, the accuser has lost the debate. Debating 101.</em></p><p>What some of you guys need to do is just stop giving end-game advice to those <strong>still building their tank</strong>. Enough confusion out there as it is, to come across a tank (as I mentor a lot) who reads such threads and still dumbfounded as they're short of AAs and wonder why they can't perform like others. It's bad enough that I have to clear up the mess that's sprouted, as they don't have the gear; the AAs or the experience with zones and beasties. You kill more tanks with this cookie-cutter approach than not, as it's a chore to keep a new tank tanking when they're frustrated.</p><p>He sought advice to build his tank, not race to the finish line tomorrow. It would help that you read, not copy/paste suggestions as well. It's the individual and their play style, not some template that matters.</p></blockquote><p>Kigneer, you realize you walk into every forum and start claiming to be an expert? Then people like me (well informed in all aspects of crafting even if I do say so myself) disagree with you and present reasonable arguments against your position. You just blow them off and restate your origional position without being able to either better state your position or refute any legitimate points brought against your argument.</p><p>You do this in every post I've seen your name come up in. Would you consider that maybe just maybe everybody else isn't wrong all the time?</p>

[Hikinami]

<p>I noticed you mentioned getting the "cure spells" AA, Boli. Playing a wizard as my other class I can see the usefulness of being able to cure it and help pick up some of the stress on your healers on certain fights. I'm wondering though if you notice that the aoe taunt it does helps more than say filling out wraths with those extra points though? Been trying to tweak my spec a little and I'm curious as to your results.</p>

[Boli32]

<p><cite>Peralin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I noticed you mentioned getting the "cure spells" AA, Boli. Playing a wizard as my other class I can see the usefulness of being able to cure it and help pick up some of the stress on your healers on certain fights. I'm wondering though if you notice that the aoe taunt it does helps more than say filling out wraths with those extra points though? Been trying to tweak my spec a little and I'm curious as to your results.</p></blockquote><p>The only way you'll notice the cure hate effect is if you are fighting more than 8 mobs as the AoE taunt effect has no max targets; that combined with mutagenic burst it is possible to contol more than 8 targets on you without sigil (group zones) or concecrate (raid).</p><p>Its a nice bonus... but it is not reliable enough to be championed as a great way to hold AoE agro... considering you first have to have effects to cure, and then cure them to gain the effect.</p><p>The cure is most effective at being able to keep yourself cured; the recast of 5s (4.5s with str line) is the best part of it.. it doens't help the group so much but it keeps 90% of detrimentals cured off you ASAP; and if you're alive the group has got a better chance of survival.</p>

[Kigneer]

<p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Kigneer, you realize you walk into every forum and start claiming to be an expert?</p></blockquote><p>Nope.</p><p>Only folks who notice are those who are offended, and that's pretty sad that they "get off" by it, too. Especially when they take a game so seriously.</p>

[OrcSlayer96]

<p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Kigneer, you realize you walk into every forum and start claiming to be an expert?</p></blockquote><p>Nope.</p><p>Only folks who notice are those who are offended, and that's pretty sad that they "get off" by it, too. Especially when they take a game so seriously.</p></blockquote><p>Boli and others that have been correcting you on the Paladin raiding specs are not doing it to snub you, they are trying to make the point that in the current TSO environment, the spec that Boli talks about maximizes the survival and agro/dps of a paladin to MT/OT on Epic/raid encounters.  Back in the day before STR line was overhauled and we were given DA and better casting/recast/reuse, wisdom line was used by many as the line for antifear/ support section for paladins that were already capped or have not progressed far enough to  need other than wisdom line.  I used to use the wisdom line for a long time with running instances and intial raid content, but found that it wasnt enough for my raids and minimal on instances when new instances/raids came up.  Any paladin has the option/right to ignore our advice, but don't discount the advice as "wrong" for current raiding.</p><p>On the matter of "cure spells" it is one of my favorite and most used AA's.  I find myself doing alot of intances with less than ideal setups and not having to rely on healers curing ASAP helps out alot.  Even on the normal raids with some of the best healers i have ever had, it is nice to cure before a grp cure may or may not hit(lots of stuns/interupts/stifles in the TSO raid encounters with some horrible raid fail conditions).  The power cost is minimal and the recast is 1/3rd the time of the sharable timer of a cure potion.  It has saved a ton of plat for me in the game for cure potions.  I may not be as uber geared as some other posters, but anybody that knows me in the game will tell you i am very knowledable of playing a paladin.  Choose to ignore Boli's help but imo you lessen your chances on tanking in tso raids...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Kigneer]

<p><cite>OrcSlayer96 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong><em>Any paladin has the option/right to ignore our advice, but don't discount the advice as "wrong" for current raiding.</em></strong></p></blockquote><p>That's the point that isn't being read, at all. Everyone plays their class differently. I still know level 80 Paladins to this day that still have end-line WIS and AGI specs in TSO. They prefer it. It's how they like to play. Are they wrong? Nope.</p><p>I consulted with some of the best Paladins on my server on specs. Got nice advice (much, much better than what I could find on the forum, and without the whines/cries/moans), and tailored it to how I play the game. It works for me, and I stated that it does.</p><p>That anyone got their panties in a wad over specs that isn't cookie-cutter, says more than whatever I posted. For they forgot or unwilling to accept that people play this game for their enjoyment and style. Some Paladins want to fight like Guardians, some prefer being AoE kings, but that's their choice not some committee.</p>

[Maamadex]

<p>You are perfectly right. To each his own. There may be a ranger out there who likes charming animals and took that spec as well. Its about choices and playstyle. Problem is all the aa choices aren't equally beneficial. What Boli, me and others tried to point out were optimal raiding paladin specs and points about contested/uncontested avoidance or wisdom that you didn't really read or comprehend. Thats it.</p>

[Boli32]

<p>What we are trying to do is create a discussion of oppinions backed up by FACTs; rather than just say how we are moaning have a read at what we have written and talk from your own experiance to the relavent area of raiding paladins please.</p><p>Every class has optimal line(s) to go down and core lines... have a look in EVERY forum either here or ... the other place...; we are not talking about cookie cutter... we are talking about the most optimal AA for a budding raiding paladin.</p>

[Oglock]

<p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Oglock@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>my raid leader is shouting at everyone to get their dps up to where it should be, but its not their fault, its mine for Wis that lead to this problem. Oh and my raid leader is also shouting at me to get my dps up too cus I don't have enough spell crit.</p></blockquote><p>This is funny. First, we get folks who claim they *never* have problems with hate gain/aggro control (which is contradicted by other Paladin claims). Then we get folks who claim, avoidance isn't important (contradicted again by other Paladins in full +parry gear, heck, even going down the AGI line even). And now we have folks who claim WIS isn't important, too (again contradicted).</p><p>Then when Paladins come to these types of threads and read the suggestions, and they apply it to themselves, they wonder why they aren't improving, either. Why? Because these players aren't playing Paladins anymore, they want to be dps tanks with heals, instead.</p><p>If your raid leader wants a dps tank, he should get one. Paladins don't have dps, even if your spell crits were at 100% and a Dirge was chained to your side.</p></blockquote><p>I can do around 5k+ parses regularly on single targets (I know I'm slacking), I have 78%+ avoid in defensive and 73% in offensive with a dirge/healers how much do you manage?  </p><p>Another question for you Kigneer - say using your approach how many times on a lvl 87 epic mob do you get hit vs the avoidance gear/aa setup every other raid pally uses?  Answer for you is: Its going to be more, which means as I put in another part of the post more healing to be done to keep you alive, more healing = more power usage, and less over all dps, and if you don't get how important dps/power is you truely don't understand raiding!</p><p>Judging by the quality of your paladins gear on:</p><p><a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=938197202">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...terId=938197202</a></p><p>Which is mostly tso teir2 void shard, fabled epic and legendary gear (not there's anything wrong with this, we all started out that way) and only one piece of fabled which looks like its from Ward of Elements, I have to assume that your raid experience is very limited on your pally?  As such seem to me to be ignoring those that have alot better understanding of raiding and being a raid pally, while at the same time trying to put across a view that everyone does their aa's their own way - this is correct at the begining, but if you wanna progress as a tank and move on from the easiest raid mobs you look for better solutions and the one that boli has said many times works best, its the most optimal approach.</p><p>Kigneer, your gear which great for most tso instances won't carry you through anything harder than the first two named in Tomb of the mad crusader, the lack of hit points (11k self buffed on the player profile) and low avoidance will get you owned fast, try to put it this really basic way, against a lvl 80 mob your total self buff avoidance of 55%, so you have a chance of avoiding 55% of incoming attacks, however against a lvl 87 epic mob that drops to about 40 - 45% so the mobs will hit more frequently and it takes alot more effort on the part of the healers to kill you alive.  Now imaging theres 3 lvl 87% epic mobs hitting - do you get it now?  The healers in raids are always busy so anything you can do to prevent yourself getting hit as hard helps them, they have to cure afflictions, curses, keep everyone up, and occasionally res the dead, focusing their efforts on a low hp, low avoidance paladin doesn't help them at all.</p><p>Most raiding pallies with a good level of t4 gear have very high mitigation, avoidance and good dps parses.</p>

[VALKOR]

<p>My advice pretty much follows along the lines of Boli et. al.</p><p>I have 2 AA specs - one for dps/instances with Trample and the other with STA for Divine Aura.  I have the STR endline in both.</p><p>Don't forget that one of the advantages to having your spell crit maxed out is Bane Warding.  When you are raiding, you'll likely have a shaman with enough pieces for Greater Bane Warding and that will be a lot of your DPS.  It has accounted for anywher from 10% to over 20% of my DPS and helped place me high up on the raid parse.</p><p>I used Wisdom for a while but the ward is too minor and while the skill boost is arguably useful for orange mobs it just isn't as good as the INT line.</p><p>I also had the heal for a while but switched to the cure.  There are a lot of effects to cure in TSO and being able to slap that on myself to help out the healers is a big plus.  It's also useful to cure the irritating detrimentals like the elemental reducing your damage to 1.</p><p>Get 5 T2 shard armor pieces, get 5 T3/WoE shard armor pieces, and save up your T4 pieces for late in the game.  I find the gloves to be the best T4 piece to wear due to the big crit mit jump and you can then use bracers, boots, or helm for the 7th slot (5 for your T2/T3 gear).  Once you get shoulders or legs, you'll be deep into TSO raiding and no doubt know when you want to switch to T4 gear.</p><p>I've also been swapping in the Varsoon shoulders every now and then because the mit loss is less than the block increase from the shoulders.</p><p>There are certainly a number of ways to play a paladin, but the advice from Boli and the others who added on to his suggestions is sound in my experience.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p>The main thing about paladins in regards to specs is that it depends highly on what you fight, who you fight with, and what your gear doesn't cover.  The reason other paladins experience different levels of success is because unlike other tanks paladins rely on player skill with knowing how to play with their hate and their current setup a LOT more than other tanks do since paladins use hate manipulation versus the other tanks use hate gain.  Manipulation requires alot more care and micromanagement because you are dependant on other players doing their job correctly and using their hate to get/create yours where as with hate gain it's pretty much auto pilot & moar transfers and moar dps!1 than anyone else in raid.</p><p>Regardless of what you do with your paladin, you will always rely on hate manipulation more than the other tanks ebcause that is how they were designed and you will have a higher chance of hate going sour.  Paladin tanking is not something that can be formulated on a post, it's an interactive and largely subjective thing that requires you know how to handle it in different situations.  Other tanks hate management can be sumed up by spam more damage, get a dirge, and coercer if you need more, and a troub to boot if those 2 aren't enough.</p><p>Personally, I run pretty much full defensive bonuses on my gear with my AAs str, wis, int line, cure spec, shield, wraths, and tso tree is typical setup.  The SOLE reason I do this is because of our setup and in places like the Tomb of Thuuga when we go to get alts or new folks their myth updates I'm the only one standing there not feared which I then use my cure to cure the inq, and he cures with his myth clickie or I cure a healer that has a group cure for the fear.  The fear doesn't last that long, but when you macro these types of actions it makes that fear nothing and the same applies to other situations that my fear immunity and cures come in handy.  I keep my spec because other than fights with fear or dots/detrimentals that my aura+cure help counter I'm typically on my warden, wizzy, or troub.</p><p>In otherwords, I know my setup which is pretty stable, I know my role which is mostly OT and definately situational, and I have setup accordingly and I can easily take a trip to my spec mirror and pull out the gear from bags 5&6 if I need to change it.  That same setup would not work if I were to go into harder zones because it just isn't good enough in tanking respects for being used to tank the harder zones in which case I would switch to the other spec or we'd bring another tank that is dedicated to that particular setup.  Sure I can do things like PoF or Guk: OS but they're not nearly as easy in the wis setup and thats not what I use my paladin for.  Because my needs when tanking are specific, I run a specific setup that compliments it and it works for me but only considering I'm fighting appropriate content.</p><p>When you get to the hard content, you'll find very quickly that you will need to adjust your spec in order to live, or will have to noticeably outgear the content.  Seeing as you can't outgear the highest end of content, it forces players fighting that type of content to utilize better specs and skills which doesn't allow them to chose things agi just because they like to joust.  The spec threads are aimed at that type of content or scenario when your spec matters, not specs for fun or trivial difficulty content.</p>