Ultera and Norrathian Cosmology

[Greyquill]

<p>Judging from some of the goodies that await us on Test, we're going to be introduced to visitors from a realm called Ultera. Is there any speculation from those who have been testing the new events as to where Ultera fits into the Norrathian universe? From the looks of the events, these "entities" are attracted to the work being done to restore and tune the Erudian teleportation network. So, is Ultera "The Space In between"? Where living matter resides temporarily while in transport? The name immediately recalls the device located at the top of the Oracle Tower in Antonica, the Ulteris... a possible connection? How long have the Erudites been sitting on this piece of knowledge? Is there a functional difference between Ulterian Spires (3 pronged and built by us prior to the release of the KoS expansion) and the existing Combine Spires (4 tined, very large, and usually made out of heavy gray masonry)?</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>I have a feeling it has to do with the rebuilt Nexus. I suspect Ultera, whatever it might be, will be a hub for accessing Odus as well.</p>

[Maergoth]

<p>I still believe Ultera was just a renamed Odus after the energy channeled by the new spire system elevated it to a planar state. It doesn't make sense for a plane of existence to just happen to be there for the past who knows how long.</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p><cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I still believe Ultera was just a renamed Odus after the energy channeled by the new spire system elevated it to a planar state. It doesn't make sense for a plane of existence to just happen to be there for the past who knows how long.</p></blockquote><p>This. The Erudites probably renamed their own continent after they turned into the race of Quellithulians they are today.</p>

[DukeOccam]

<p><cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I still believe Ultera was just a renamed Odus after the energy channeled by the new spire system elevated it to a planar state. It doesn't make sense for a plane of existence to just happen to be there for the past who knows how long.</p></blockquote><p>I certainly hope this is the case. I don't think this game needs more aliens from other dimensions.</p>

[Coniaric]

<p>Okay ... so ... if "Ultera" is a renamed Odus ...</p><p>Then why are there attacks from this Ultera?</p><p>Quellithulians are clearly able to travel to and from their home continent. Since Quellithulians are basically evolved Erudites and are from Odus, so why are the spires being attacked while it's being retuned and rebuilt?</p>

[kelvmor]

<p>It's not Odus. When you go into Ultera during the events, it's an endless dimension of the color caramel with a similarly colored haze. It's sort of a Nexus dimension.</p>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<p>PLEASE, no more alternate dimentions!!!  I am dimentioned-out. </p><p>What is wrong with good ol' orcs, dragons, goblins, gnolls and the denziens of a fantasy milleu? </p><p>Do we HAVE to conjure up aliens, alternate dimentions, and planar villians for every expansion anymore? </p><p>It's starting to stretch this game into something bizzare, grotesque, and unrecognizable  A caraciture of the sword and sorcery genre.</p><p>Maybe a little more plot development on the rivlries between Freeport and Qeynos might be refreshing.</p>

[Morghus]

<p><cite>Mary the Prophetess wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>PLEASE, no more alternate dimentions!!!  I am dimentioned-out. </p><p>What is wrong with good ol' orcs, dragons, goblins, gnolls and the denziens of a fantasy milleu? </p><p>Do we HAVE to conjure up aliens, alternate dimentions, and planar villians for every expansion anymore? </p><p>It's starting to stretch this game into something bizzare, grotesque, and unrecognizable  A caraciture of the sword and sorcery genre.</p><p>Maybe a little more plot development on the rivlries between Freeport and Qeynos might be refreshing.</p></blockquote><p>I'm sure there are many of us that are already sick and tired of the shadow odyssey's bizzare creatures.  But I don't know what they could really do with our "next big threat".</p><p>The orcs havent been a real threat since Desert of Flames where they were at their strongest in their capital of Rujark.</p><p>The goblins united briefly in runnyeye 2 but were stopped.</p><p>The gnolls have been out of the picture really since splitpaw.</p><p>The dragon race as a whole has been on the decline since the first game and all attempts at regaining power on their part has ended with the deaths of their more influential members, and given their typically low rate of reproduction I dont see them being a major threat/player in the storyline for a long time..</p>

[kelvmor]

<p>To be honest, there's not a whole lot of dimensions. Ultera is only for an event, it's not going to be there forever, by the time this event's over Norrathians won't have to worry about them.</p><p>Also. There aren't any other dimensions with attackers besides the Void.</p><p>Unless you think the Order of Rime came from some ice dimension.</p>

[Liched]

<p>To be fair it's probably all related to EQ1's ancient history that's starting to be unfolded now through various games. The whole story took an arc at 2003 to make way for EQ2 and probably for other games like EQOA but that's not to say that when EQ1's ancient history has finally been dusted off and a few things explained that we can't carry on the way we knew and loved Norrath but with a little more backstory and a few more of the older hidden races. It takes a little while to do it all across 3 games simultaneously and i'm sure it's been a busy busy few years for the devs since 2006. We've always known about the UFO in Qeynos and our alien friend Rodcet Nife since the early days so it's not like they've just run out of ideas and started sticking random things in. Hopefully it'll play out nicely over the next year or so, EQOA, EQ1 and EQ2 will finally be all synchronised lore wise then we start looking at the future rather than the past. *Fingers crossed*</p>

[Vanisher123]

<p><cite>kelvmor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>To be honest, there's not a whole lot of dimensions. Ultera is only for an event, it's not going to be there forever, by the time this event's over Norrathians won't have to worry about them.</p></blockquote><p>Well unless the Erudites find a away to teleport without using Ultera as a nexus, or find a way to seal it to prevent "leaks", I have a feeling we'll be hearing of it more, it would be worse to just fade it away without explaining why its no longer leaking.</p><p>Besides, these invaders "leaking" out of Ultera could be the danger the books have been hinting at. (Perhaps even thats why the old spires were destroyed, not by beings/events of Norrath, but Ulteran invaders presumably angry we're using their world as a shortcut)</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p><cite>Vanisher123 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Besides, these invaders "leaking" out of Ultera could be the danger the books have been hinting at. (Perhaps even thats why the old spires were destroyed, not by beings/events of Norrath, but Ulteran invaders presumably angry we're using their world as a shortcut)</p></blockquote><p>Reminds me of Nightcrawler from the X-Men. his ability to teleport actually takes him through another dimension where demonic creatures live.</p><p>They never notice that he's traveling there because he's doing it so fast, though.</p>

[Liched]

<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vanisher123 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Besides, these invaders "leaking" out of Ultera could be the danger the books have been hinting at. (Perhaps even thats why the old spires were destroyed, not by beings/events of Norrath, but Ulteran invaders presumably angry we're using their world as a shortcut)</p></blockquote><p>Reminds me of Nightcrawler from the X-Men. his ability to teleport actually takes him through another dimension where demonic creatures live.</p><p>They never notice that he's traveling there because he's doing it so fast, though.</p></blockquote><p>Wow! I had never heard that, that's amazing!</p>

[RaphaNissi]

<p>Ultera is the dimension passed through during teleportation like used by the Ulteran spires or when certain classes shadowstep.  Typically it's a place that is passed through so quickly that you don't even know it's there.  Something obviously went awry to cause us to be able to spend lengthy time in this place.  Come to think of it, it's more like WE are the invaders in this realm since we aren't supposed to even really be there like we are currently.  If these beings are native to this realm, it's no wonder they don't want us there.</p>

[Greyquill]

<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vanisher123 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Besides, these invaders "leaking" out of Ultera could be the danger the books have been hinting at. (Perhaps even thats why the old spires were destroyed, not by beings/events of Norrath, but Ulteran invaders presumably angry we're using their world as a shortcut)</p></blockquote><p>Reminds me of Nightcrawler from the X-Men. his ability to teleport actually takes him through another dimension where demonic creatures live.</p><p>They never notice that he's traveling there because he's doing it so fast, though.</p></blockquote><p>This is actually what I had in mind when they first mentioned Ultera in connection with the spire network. That the Erudites had co-opted some planar crack in the multiverse to allow their teleportation magics to function. What I'm left wondering is do the new spires on the Ulteran network function differently from the old Combine spires? Was Ultera ultimately responsible for the collapse of the Combine nexus and the explosion of Luclin?</p>

[Liched]

<p>i wonder if they will start hunting us Shadow Men down? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Cusashorn]

<p><cite>Liched@Runnyeye wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>i wonder if they will start hunting us Shadow Men down? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>I C what you did thar.</p>

[DeBasilisk]

<p>Seems like it's pretty much the same as the Plane of Shadow from Dungeons and Dragons (3rd edition). It's the medium for a lot of teleportation spells, but also has it's own inhabitants. Kind of like a road.</p><p>It also reminds me of a Star Trek TNG episode where a character (Barclay) gets stuck in the transporter and is attacked by some trans-temporal worm alien.</p><p>I think it would be fun if, when you use the Ulteran spires, every now and then you would get a random encounter fight with a few mobs. Make it optional though, so you can decline the adventure if you're really in a hurry. The same should happen with boat travel - pirates off the port bow!</p>

[Spirit]

<p><cite>Mary the Prophetess wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>PLEASE, no more alternate dimentions!!!  I am dimentioned-out. </p><p>What is wrong with good ol' orcs, dragons, goblins, gnolls and the denziens of a fantasy milleu? </p><p>Do we HAVE to conjure up aliens, alternate dimentions, and planar villians for every expansion anymore? </p><p>It's starting to stretch this game into something bizzare, grotesque, and unrecognizable  A caraciture of the sword and sorcery genre.</p><p>Maybe a little more plot development on the rivlries between Freeport and Qeynos might be refreshing.</p></blockquote><p>The Shattering is over. Done. Finished. History. Nobody needs 'sheltering' anymore. Yet Dark Elves and Iksar are still playing pat-a-cake with D'Lere. Barbarians, bred for war, curtseying in Qeynos. Everyone not going any further than giving each other "the frowning of their lives".</p><p>What the hell happened to Norrath?</p><p>It's about time a race stood up and did something about all this nonsense. There's a world out there, just waiting to be claimed. And it would be as easy to do right now, as just walking out those gates and taking it.</p><p>The real enemy isn't in some extra-planar void freak show. The real enemy is the Fae your Ogre is exchanging soft furnishing tips with. WAKE UP, races of Norrath.</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p><cite>Spirited wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The Shattering is over. Done. Finished. History. Nobody needs 'sheltering' anymore. Yet Dark Elves and Iksar are still playing pat-a-cake with D'Lere. Barbarians, bred for war, curtseying in Qeynos. Everyone not going any further than giving each other "the frowning of their lives".</p><p>What the hell happened to Norrath?</p><p>It's about time a race stood up and did something about all this nonsense. There's a world out there, just waiting to be claimed. And it would be as easy to do right now, as just walking out those gates and taking it.</p><p>The real enemy isn't in some extra-planar void freak show. The real enemy is the Fae your Ogre is exchanging soft furnishing tips with. WAKE UP, races of Norrath.</p></blockquote><p>The Barbarians weren't "Bred for war". You make it sound like they're genetically engineered like the Sarnak, and are by nature, blood-thirsty warmongers like the Ogres. A Barbarian living in Qeynos among their human cousins is nothing out of character for them.</p><p>Rallos Zek and the Ogres realized that the world was out there, just waiting to be claimed. Thats why they started the 2nd Rallosian War. They tried to take the world by force, to claim it as thier own, and look what happened to them: They almost became extinct by the Greenmist. Only those who remained were the ogres who were already living in and fighting for Freeport of their own choice, the group of ogres who split off to attack the Frogloks and for some unexplained reason ended up fusing with the Greenmist, and any ogres who weren't involved in the war altogether.</p><p>I agree that this game needs to stop hashing up plots that involve an extra-dimensional enemy where the concequences for failure means the absolute annihilation of existance itself. I want to return to the days when the greatest threat were the orcs and goblins, or a power hungry dictator who wants to control all the inhabitants of the land, but right now we have to finish up the Void storyline with this next expansion.</p>

[shadowscale]

<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I agree that this game needs to stop hashing up plots that involve an extra-dimensional enemy where the concequences for failure means the absolute annihilation of existance itself. I want to return to the days when the greatest threat were the orcs and goblins, or a power hungry dictator who wants to control all the inhabitants of the land, but right now we have to finish up the Void storyline with this next expansion.</p></blockquote><p>exept, even after the next expantion the dooms day clock is still ticking yes? while it would be nice for a break. i dont think the void suff is preventing ages end.</p>

[Liched]

<p>And it'll look great in the movie <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Cusashorn]

<p><cite>shadowscale wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I agree that this game needs to stop hashing up plots that involve an extra-dimensional enemy where the concequences for failure means the absolute annihilation of existance itself. I want to return to the days when the greatest threat were the orcs and goblins, or a power hungry dictator who wants to control all the inhabitants of the land, but right now we have to finish up the Void storyline with this next expansion.</p></blockquote><p>exept, even after the next expantion the dooms day clock is still ticking yes? while it would be nice for a break. i dont think the void suff is preventing ages end.</p></blockquote><p>Well the devs stated clearly that the next expansion will be THE END to the Void story line, and yeah.. they pretty much want to erase Norrath from existance. It's just the way the shadowmen operate. They take over a world, destroy all life on it, and anchor themselves to it in order to prevent thier own eventual distruction by the giant black hole in the void until that world is eventually pulled in, where they start all over again.</p>

[Spirit]

<p>I'm relatively new to EQ2, having only really started playing seriously a short while ago, but I don't think I've been less enthused about lore since I went into space 500 years ago and found cat men on the Moon.</p><p>Have we got room for The Shadowmen revealing themselves to be Galactus, and all of Norrath collectively waking up in the shower after having a 'Bobby in Dallas' moment?</p>

[RaphaNissi]

<p><cite>shadowscale wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I agree that this game needs to stop hashing up plots that involve an extra-dimensional enemy where the concequences for failure means the absolute annihilation of existance itself. I want to return to the days when the greatest threat were the orcs and goblins, or a power hungry dictator who wants to control all the inhabitants of the land, but right now we have to finish up the Void storyline with this next expansion.</p></blockquote><p>exept, even after the next expantion the dooms day clock is still ticking yes? while it would be nice for a break. i dont think the void suff is preventing ages end.</p></blockquote><p>I completely agree with you on this one.  Though the void might play a "time" on the "clock" that we have uncovered, I don't believe it is all there is to it.  Norrath is still ticking down the events to the Age's End.  One of the symbols on the calendar is closely related to Odus that we have seen.  I would suggest we are moving from one position on the calender to another one.  Yes, we are suposed to see the void storyline "wrapped up" in the next expansion, but that doesn't mean it's ALL going to be about the void.  There are other players waiting for their part to come in all of this.  We don't know for sure what these extra-dimentional beings are doing.  Seems to me they are invading us because WE INVADED THEM first.  We are fixing the spires.  We are entering their world.  They are trying to keep us from patching things up with the spires.  I'm going to go out on a limb here and say they are not after Norrathian world domination.</p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>RaphaNissi wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>shadowscale wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I agree that this game needs to stop hashing up plots that involve an extra-dimensional enemy where the concequences for failure means the absolute annihilation of existance itself. I want to return to the days when the greatest threat were the orcs and goblins, or a power hungry dictator who wants to control all the inhabitants of the land, but right now we have to finish up the Void storyline with this next expansion.</p></blockquote><p>exept, even after the next expantion the dooms day clock is still ticking yes? while it would be nice for a break. i dont think the void suff is preventing ages end.</p></blockquote><p>I completely agree with you on this one.  Though the void might play a "time" on the "clock" that we have uncovered, I don't believe it is all there is to it.  Norrath is still ticking down the events to the Age's End.  One of the symbols on the calendar is closely related to Odus that we have seen.  I would suggest we are moving from one position on the calender to another one.  Yes, we are suposed to see the void storyline "wrapped up" in the next expansion, but that doesn't mean it's ALL going to be about the void.  There are other players waiting for their part to come in all of this.  We don't know for sure what these extra-dimentional beings are doing.  Seems to me they are invading us because WE INVADED THEM first.  We are fixing the spires.  We are entering their world.  They are trying to keep us from patching things up with the spires.  I'm going to go out on a limb here and say they are not after Norrathian world domination.</p></blockquote><p>As long as we're getting out the tinfoil hats and cooking up our own homebrew conspiricy theories for future events...</p><p>Maybe after the Shissar Callender is over and "Age's End" comes to pass we'll see a time-traveling Shissar City show up on the other half of Kunark (the part we didn't explore) and a whole new Iksar slave army will be driven to conquer Kunark lead by their Shissar masters.</p><p>Or maybe in fighting Theer we'll manage to release him from the void instead of destroying him. Instead of turning his attentions to the Norrathian Pathenon and taking his revenge the raid will get treated to a cut sceen where you witness Theer taking on truely epic size and proportions as he regains his full power. As he turns to Norrath he is attacked by a dragon that dwarfs both Theer and Norrath. Thus is herald the return of Veeshan, and the final test of the Norrath Pathenon as they all turn their efforts to repel Veeshan from reclaiming Norrath for her brood. Will Keryfym be an ally of Veeshan, or an enemy?</p><p>Will the release of Theer instead find him bound to the Tribunal as their executioner, and the gods of Norrath finally made to pay the price for their transgressions now that the Tribunal finally has the means to punish even them? Would Theer become the Final Hammer, with the ability to lead the Tribunal? Would he become a meer puppet under the Tribunal's cold impassionate justice?</p><p>Stay tuned true believer!</p>

[Rainmare]

<p>it seemst hat perhaps the Pantheon knows about Ultera and doesn't want us fiddling with it either. the raid spawns a tthe spires before thier final completion seem to be tied to the deities. Lavastorm was reported to spawn a 'Champion of Flame' that has some kind of zonewide emote upon spawning, and LP is reported to have apparently had a Champion of Hate. unfortunately thier zw emote isn't logged, so we'll have to wait for another one and hopefully someone will remember/ copy paste it so we can know what it is they do.</p><p>maybe Ultera is the source of all teleportation, and while the Gods who apparently recharged the 'Combine' spires can tap into it/access it without [Removed for Content] off the inhabitants (or as the case maybe, control the inhabitants), the Quellthulians are deliberatly punching holes in it for thier spires, which is why the Ulterians are fighting back.</p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>it seemst hat perhaps the Pantheon knows about Ultera and doesn't want us fiddling with it either. the raid spawns a tthe spires before thier final completion seem to be tied to the deities. Lavastorm was reported to spawn a 'Champion of Flame' that has some kind of zonewide emote upon spawning, and LP is reported to have apparently had a Champion of Hate. unfortunately thier zw emote isn't logged, so we'll have to wait for another one and hopefully someone will remember/ copy paste it so we can know what it is they do.</p><p>maybe Ultera is the source of all teleportation, and while the Gods who apparently recharged the 'Combine' spires can tap into it/access it without [Removed for Content] off the inhabitants (or as the case maybe, control the inhabitants), the Quellthulians are deliberatly punching holes in it for thier spires, which is why the Ulterians are fighting back.</p></blockquote><p>What leads you to believe that the Combine Spires have anything to do with dieties? Considering that Geomancy was an extremely powerful form of magic only known to the Combine, wouldn't it make more sense to attribute the Combine Spires to a form of Geomancy?</p><p>Currently, we know very little of what Geomancy was capable of. It can certainly be believed that Geomancy was responsable for a lot of the great works the Combine Empire was able to accomplish.</p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>Mary the Prophetess wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>PLEASE, no more alternate dimentions!!!  I am dimentioned-out. </p><p>What is wrong with good ol' orcs, dragons, goblins, gnolls and the denziens of a fantasy milleu? </p><p>Do we HAVE to conjure up aliens, alternate dimentions, and planar villians for every expansion anymore? </p><p>It's starting to stretch this game into something bizzare, grotesque, and unrecognizable  A caraciture of the sword and sorcery genre.</p><p>Maybe a little more plot development on the rivlries between Freeport and Qeynos might be refreshing.</p></blockquote><p>I'm just going to point out a few "normal" fantasy creatures that come from "alternate dimensions":</p><p>Deamons/Devils (unless your cosmology includes flaming pits and a hole underground that is unexplainably accessable anywhere and holds more than it should.)</p><p>Elves (both in Norris and Gaelic mythology)</p><p>Genies (Efreet, Dijin)</p><p>All of these are very traditional, very old "extra dimensional" creatures. More recent fantasy litterature (20th century) is chocked full of beings that come from other dimensions. While I'd like to get back to exploring Norrath myself, having an extra dimensional threat in a fantasy context has a lot of history behind it. Especially when you have a history of teleportation, dimension travel, and extra-planar conquest which is all represented in Norrathian history without the void invasion being taken into account. (In fact, the first Rallosian Army invaded another dimension where it was defeated by the Rathe.)</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> (In fact, the first Rallosian Army invaded another dimension where it was defeated by the Rathe.)</p></blockquote><p>That was the Plane of Earth. They were fought back the first time, but the 2nd invasion resulted in the ogres defeating the Rathe, taking them back to Norrath, and executing them one by one.</p><p>I don't think the Planes count as other dimensions of reality.</p>

[teddyboy4]

<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> (In fact, the first Rallosian Army invaded another dimension where it was defeated by the Rathe.)</p></blockquote><p>......</p><p>I don't think the Planes count as other dimensions of reality.</p></blockquote><p>Of course they do...the Planes of Power are other "planes" of reality, other dimensions is exactly what they are. Lets recall what we know about the Planes...</p><p>They aren't part of the planet Norrath....in other words, the Plane of Water isn't found deep in the ocean, or the Plane of Earth deep underground, etc etc.</p><p>The Planes do have a definite influence on Norrath, and vice-versa.</p><p>They can only be accessed through teleportation magic.</p><p>Yeah, I'd say the Planes are deffinitely other dimensions.</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p>I don't want to really go into the debate, but I don't see the Planes as being different dimensions. Just because you teleport somewhere doesn't make it a different dimension. Luclin wasn't a different dimension. Some of the planes are physically connected to Norrath. Growth, Underfoot, Fear, Mischief, among others. You could see all of Ro's sattelites in the Plane of Sky...</p><p>There has to be a difference between a Plane of reality and a Dimension. Otherwise, we'd be entering the Dimension of Fear, the Dimension of Growth, the Dimension of Love, instead of the Plane.</p><p>We know that the Void is another dimension of reality, because Vhalen said it exists outside of space and time. The planes all exist within the same concept of space.</p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> (In fact, the first Rallosian Army invaded another dimension where it was defeated by the Rathe.)</p></blockquote><p>That was the Plane of Earth. They were fought back the first time, but the 2nd invasion resulted in the ogres defeating the Rathe, taking them back to Norrath, and executing them one by one.</p><p>I don't think the Planes count as other dimensions of reality.</p></blockquote><p>So, the void doesn't count as another dimension of reality because 1) Norrath was created by the Nameless in the void</p><p>and 2) because it is (supposidly) the Nameless's plane?</p><p>That just doesn't sit right.</p>

[Lodrelhai]

<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't want to really go into the debate, but I don't see the Planes as being different dimensions. Just because you teleport somewhere doesn't make it a different dimension. Luclin wasn't a different dimension. Some of the planes are physically connected to Norrath. Growth, Underfoot, Fear, Mischief, among others. You could see all of Ro's sattelites in the Plane of Sky...</p><p>There has to be a difference between a Plane of reality and a Dimension. Otherwise, we'd be entering the Dimension of Fear, the Dimension of Growth, the Dimension of Love, instead of the Plane.</p><p>We know that the Void is another dimension of reality, because Vhalen said it exists outside of space and time. The planes all exist within the same concept of space.</p></blockquote><p>My understanding of that was that the Void was basically the space between the various Planes - like the Planes were the floors of a building, and the Void the crawlspaces between the floors.  Not actually part of any of the floors/Planes, and the elevators (standard teleports) don't typically stop there, but it still exists.  And if you know where to find the access, or how to punch through the floor/ceiling/wall properly, you can get to this netherspace that's neither here nor there, but someplace in between.</p><p>As for the things trying to stop the rebuilding of the full Ulterian Nexus, I do think it's being backed by the gods, and the Quellithulians probably know it but aren't being up front with the adventurers they're recruiting to fight them.  I haven't seen a spire completed, but I have done the ring event in one of the planar tears a couple times.  The named boss that spawns with the final group in there a Guardian of (insert name here) - we fought a Guardian of Storms the first time, and a Guardian of Justice the next.  Sounds like representatives of Karana and the Tribunal to me.</p><p>I'm half-wondering if this "Ultera" is actually the ruined remains of the Godplanes, the parts decayed so far as to be unrecognizeable any more.  In which case the Quellithulians and the gods could be in a sort of race to stake claims on the raw planar material.  I'm betting that could be one hell of a power source for whoever could harness and shape it correctly.</p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't want to really go into the debate, but I don't see the Planes as being different dimensions. Just because you teleport somewhere doesn't make it a different dimension. Luclin wasn't a different dimension. Some of the planes are physically connected to Norrath. Growth, Underfoot, Fear, Mischief, among others. You could see all of Ro's sattelites in the Plane of Sky...</p><p>There has to be a difference between a Plane of reality and a Dimension. Otherwise, we'd be entering the Dimension of Fear, the Dimension of Growth, the Dimension of Love, instead of the Plane.</p><p>We know that the Void is another dimension of reality, because Vhalen said it exists outside of space and time. The planes all exist within the same concept of space.</p></blockquote><p>All of the previous planes had a portal to get there except for Plane of Sky which was accessable via a single combine spire with a wizard using a component and special spell.</p><p>All of the planes reflect the being that rules over it. The Plane of Disease is a massive living being that is suffering from disease. The Plane of Tranquility forbids all forms of combat. The Plane of Water is a massive ocean. The Plane of Hate reflects the complicated and convoluted relationships Inny uses to foster hate amongst his followers. The Plane of Time doesn't play nice with the Norrathian concept of time and space either and it is definately a plane. The same could be said of the Plane of Nightmare.</p><p>Yes, there are dimensional portals to the planes in areas where the dieties in control of that plane have a close association with Norrath. Basically as a matter of convience to the devs. If you were following more "traditional" magic you'd have wizards and priests doing rituals to open a portal in different locations closely associated with the dieties. EQ is a bit more friendly in saying that you don't need the complicated ritual to go visit your god's home plane/dimension/realm or whatever you want to call it. I don't buy the difference between dimension and plane as being anything more than semantics.</p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't want to really go into the debate, but I don't see the Planes as being different dimensions. Just because you teleport somewhere doesn't make it a different dimension. Luclin wasn't a different dimension. Some of the planes are physically connected to Norrath. Growth, Underfoot, Fear, Mischief, among others. You could see all of Ro's sattelites in the Plane of Sky...</p><p>There has to be a difference between a Plane of reality and a Dimension. Otherwise, we'd be entering the Dimension of Fear, the Dimension of Growth, the Dimension of Love, instead of the Plane.</p><p>We know that the Void is another dimension of reality, because Vhalen said it exists outside of space and time. The planes all exist within the same concept of space.</p></blockquote><p>My understanding of that was that the Void was basically the space between the various Planes - like the Planes were the floors of a building, and the Void the crawlspaces between the floors.  Not actually part of any of the floors/Planes, and the elevators (standard teleports) don't typically stop there, but it still exists.  And if you know where to find the access, or how to punch through the floor/ceiling/wall properly, you can get to this netherspace that's neither here nor there, but someplace in between.</p><p>As for the things trying to stop the rebuilding of the full Ulterian Nexus, I do think it's being backed by the gods, and the Quellithulians probably know it but aren't being up front with the adventurers they're recruiting to fight them.  I haven't seen a spire completed, but I have done the ring event in one of the planar tears a couple times.  The named boss that spawns with the final group in there a Guardian of (insert name here) - we fought a Guardian of Storms the first time, and a Guardian of Justice the next.  Sounds like representatives of Karana and the Tribunal to me.</p><p>I'm half-wondering if this "Ultera" is actually the ruined remains of the Godplanes, the parts decayed so far as to be unrecognizeable any more.  In which case the Quellithulians and the gods could be in a sort of race to stake claims on the raw planar material.  I'm betting that could be one hell of a power source for whoever could harness and shape it correctly.</p></blockquote><p>Interesting thought.</p>

[Wilin]

<p><cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm half-wondering if this "Ultera" is actually the ruined remains of the Godplanes, the parts decayed so far as to be unrecognizeable any more.  In which case the Quellithulians and the gods could be in a sort of race to stake claims on the raw planar material.  I'm betting that could be one hell of a power source for whoever could harness and shape it correctly.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, fire up the space bridge and harvest energon cubes for the glory of Cybertr...err Norrath! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[ke'la]

<p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>it seemst hat perhaps the Pantheon knows about Ultera and doesn't want us fiddling with it either. the raid spawns a tthe spires before thier final completion seem to be tied to the deities. Lavastorm was reported to spawn a 'Champion of Flame' that has some kind of zonewide emote upon spawning, and LP is reported to have apparently had a Champion of Hate. unfortunately thier zw emote isn't logged, so we'll have to wait for another one and hopefully someone will remember/ copy paste it so we can know what it is they do.</p><p>maybe Ultera is the source of all teleportation, and while the Gods who apparently recharged the 'Combine' spires can tap into it/access it without [Removed for Content] off the inhabitants (or as the case maybe, control the inhabitants), the Quellthulians are deliberatly punching holes in it for thier spires, which is why the Ulterians are fighting back.</p></blockquote><p>What leads you to believe that the Combine Spires have anything to do with dieties? Considering that Geomancy was an extremely powerful form of magic only known to the Combine, wouldn't it make more sense to attribute the Combine Spires to a form of Geomancy?</p><p>Currently, we know very little of what Geomancy was capable of. It can certainly be believed that Geomancy was responsable for a lot of the great works the Combine Empire was able to accomplish.</p></blockquote><p>The only connection I can see between the Combine Spires and the Gods, is that both them(and the Druid Rings) where re-empowered at the same time that the gods returned, could there be a connection? Maybe, or it could just be a cowinidance.</p>

[Obzidian]

<p>There's a link between Ultera (and the Ulteran Spires) and the void.  In fact, the Ulteran Spires are powered by the void, or shards from it.</p><p>In Moors of Ykesha, there is a quest from the Quellthulians by all the void shard vendors which are all Quellthulians.  In fact, the Quellthulians have been after us to get void shards from the beginning.  Now we know why.</p><p>Hail, Suel A'jilbir <Keeper of Kaborite>  (Note:  Kaborite -- a metal named after Al'Kabor?)</p><p>Suel A'jilbir says to you, "Ah, greetings my friend.  I am pleased you have come to see me.  I am hoping I can borrow a moment of your time to provide me a service."</p><p>You say to Suel A'jilbir, "Perhaps, what is it you are looking to have done?"</p><p>Suel A'jilbir says to you, "I am pleased you asked!  You see, I need a shipment delivered to one of the material processors at the broken Ulteran Spires.  They are in need of these materials, and I believe this would be a fine way for me to get what they need to them, and for you to contribute to the effort of fixing the spires."</p><p>You say to Suel A'jilbir, "Materials?  What are these?"</p><p>Suel A'jilbir says to you, "Indeed! <strong> These are crates of prepared Kaborite - the material that provides the spires with their magical properties.  They will need to infuse this into the spires to get them fully functional."</strong></p><p>You say to Suel A'jilbir, "Kaborite?  Where did this all come from?"</p><p>Suel A'jilbir says to you, "<strong>Why you adventurers brought them, of course.  What did you think these Void Shards were?"</strong></p><p>You say to Suel A'jilbir, "Wait. . . What?  The Void Shards were Kaborite?"</p><p>Suel A'jilbir says to you, "Indeed, I could discuss it in more detail, but the prepared Kaborite must be delivered.  Would you be willing to take this to one of the broken spires in either Everfrost, Lavastorm, the Orcish Wastes or the Loping Plains?  Just give it to the materials processor, and they will know what to do with it." </p><p>You say to Suel A'jilbir, "Very well.  I will take the Kaborite to the materials processor."</p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>kela wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span ><span style="color: #ffffff; font-size: x-small;"> </span><p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>it seemst hat perhaps the Pantheon knows about Ultera and doesn't want us fiddling with it either. the raid spawns a tthe spires before thier final completion seem to be tied to the deities. Lavastorm was reported to spawn a 'Champion of Flame' that has some kind of zonewide emote upon spawning, and LP is reported to have apparently had a Champion of Hate. unfortunately thier zw emote isn't logged, so we'll have to wait for another one and hopefully someone will remember/ copy paste it so we can know what it is they do.</p><p>maybe Ultera is the source of all teleportation, and while the Gods who apparently recharged the 'Combine' spires can tap into it/access it without [Removed for Content] off the inhabitants (or as the case maybe, control the inhabitants), the Quellthulians are deliberatly punching holes in it for thier spires, which is why the Ulterians are fighting back.</p></blockquote><p>What leads you to believe that the Combine Spires have anything to do with dieties? Considering that Geomancy was an extremely powerful form of magic only known to the Combine, wouldn't it make more sense to attribute the Combine Spires to a form of Geomancy?</p><p>Currently, we know very little of what Geomancy was capable of. It can certainly be believed that Geomancy was responsable for a lot of the great works the Combine Empire was able to accomplish.</p></blockquote><p>The only connection I can see between the Combine Spires and the Gods, is that both them(and the Druid Rings) where re-empowered at the same time that the gods returned, could there be a connection? Maybe, or it could just be a cowinidance.</p></span></blockquote><p>We had working teleportation before the gods returned. Spires were rebuild KoS erra, and I believe I remember druid and wizard teleports were working before that. The first dieties to return were with EoF one year later. </p>

[Rainmare]

<p>We didn't get wizard teleports or druid for that matter until EoF. the story introducing it was that of a pair walking in Gfay, talking about the past and the former use of the combine spires, when a cloaked 'figure' the say went to teh Gfay spire and touched it, adn they thing blazed to life. adn then the cloaked figure vanished.</p><p>we got the Ulteran spires to KoS, but that was it. they didn't teleport anyplace else or had any other means to teleport until EoF, if I recall correctly.</p>

[ke'la]

<p><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>We didn't get wizard teleports or druid for that matter until EoF. the story introducing it was that of a pair walking in Gfay, talking about the past and the former use of the combine spires, when a cloaked 'figure' the say went to teh Gfay spire and touched it, adn they thing blazed to life. adn then the cloaked figure vanished.</p><p>we got the Ulteran spires to KoS, but that was it. they didn't teleport anyplace else or had any other means to teleport until EoF, if I recall correctly.</p></blockquote><p>Yep, and if I remember correctly it was an Elder and a Younger Kinsmen that where walking together, and the reactivation of the spires greatly worried the Elder, saying something like they are comming again.</p><p>::EDIT::I was wrong about him saying something about them returning, but <a href="http://www.lorelibrary.com/?page=website&wid=47" target="_blank">Here</a> is the story that shows them getting reempowered.</p>

[teddyboy4]

<p><cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>...</p><p>As for the things trying to stop the rebuilding of the full Ulterian Nexus, I do think it's being backed by the gods, and the Quellithulians probably know it but aren't being up front with the adventurers they're recruiting to fight them.  I haven't seen a spire completed, but I have done the ring event in one of the planar tears a couple times.  The named boss that spawns with the final group in there a Guardian of (insert name here) - we fought a Guardian of Storms the first time, and a Guardian of Justice the next.  Sounds like representatives of Karana and the Tribunal to me.</p><p>...</p></blockquote><p>You know, I didn't put it together until you just mentioned this, but when I cleared out one of the tears I too got a "boss" mob, and he was a Guardian of Flame...I wondered what a being of Flame would be doing in this tear, but never really gave it anymore thought. Now that you say there are other Guardians, with names representing other dieties aspects....well, that is more then coincidence and it seems that either the gods are actively opposing the rebuilding of the Quellthulian spires, these Guardians are acting on their own volition, or someone/something else is controlling them.</p><p>Whatever the case may be, it's a very interesting connection to the gods and I can't wait to find out what it's all about.</p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>Eandiil@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>...</p><p>As for the things trying to stop the rebuilding of the full Ulterian Nexus, I do think it's being backed by the gods, and the Quellithulians probably know it but aren't being up front with the adventurers they're recruiting to fight them.  I haven't seen a spire completed, but I have done the ring event in one of the planar tears a couple times.  The named boss that spawns with the final group in there a Guardian of (insert name here) - we fought a Guardian of Storms the first time, and a Guardian of Justice the next.  Sounds like representatives of Karana and the Tribunal to me.</p><p>...</p></blockquote><p>You know, I didn't put it together until you just mentioned this, but when I cleared out one of the tears I too got a "boss" mob, and he was a Guardian of Flame...I wondered what a being of Flame would be doing in this tear, but never really gave it anymore thought. Now that you say there are other Guardians, with names representing other dieties aspects....well, that is more then coincidence and it seems that either the gods are actively opposing the rebuilding of the Quellthulian spires, these Guardians are acting on their own volition, or someone/something else is controlling them.</p><p>Whatever the case may be, it's a very interesting connection to the gods and I can't wait to find out what it's all about.</p></blockquote><p>I've only seen 4 different guardians after trying a lot of these instances in different zones. Storms (Karana), Justice (Mar? Tribunal seems more likely due to the hammer and cowl), Flame (Ro) and Hate (Inny). Has anyone seen any other guardians? We hit Antonica, Commonlands, Enchanted Lands and Nektulous Forest for our search. It seems like you just get a random 1 of the 4 for each zone with maybe some kind of weighting system for each zone. Hate/Justice seemed much more likely in the commonlands, while Storms/Flame seemed much more likely in Antonica.</p>

[Obzidian]

<p><cite>Eandiil@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>...</p><p>As for the things trying to stop the rebuilding of the full Ulterian Nexus, I do think it's being backed by the gods, and the Quellithulians probably know it but aren't being up front with the adventurers they're recruiting to fight them.  I haven't seen a spire completed, but I have done the ring event in one of the planar tears a couple times.  The named boss that spawns with the final group in there a Guardian of (insert name here) - we fought a Guardian of Storms the first time, and a Guardian of Justice the next.  Sounds like representatives of Karana and the Tribunal to me.</p><p>...</p></blockquote><p>You know, I didn't put it together until you just mentioned this, but when I cleared out one of the tears I too got a "boss" mob, and he was a Guardian of Flame...I wondered what a being of Flame would be doing in this tear, but never really gave it anymore thought. Now that you say there are other Guardians, with names representing other dieties aspects....well, that is more then coincidence and it seems that either the gods are actively opposing the rebuilding of the Quellthulian spires, these Guardians are acting on their own volition, or someone/something else is controlling them.</p><p>Whatever the case may be, it's a very interesting connection to the gods and I can't wait to find out what it's all about.</p></blockquote><p>I have a working theory on this all. </p><p>Theer & Anashti were both thrown into the Void by the other Gods.  They threw Theer in because they were afraid of him as he's supposed to keep them in balance.  They threw Anashti in because they didn't like what she'd done. </p><p>Now, fast forward through time and we see there really isn't much balance in Norrath, amongst the gods or otherwise.  You do have Theer consisently trying, through the void, to use mortals to enact something of a balance.  He sends through his "arms" (Soulfire, Claymore) and his "hand" (Staff of Theer). Throughout Norrathian written history, Veeshan's lot had most of the power.  Interestingly enough, the dragons try to take the staff of Theer and their prophet from the Ethernauts. . . by force if need be.  Trakanon, on the other hand, was considered something of an ally and he seperates himself from the other dragons.  With PoS, we have dragons doing all kinds of things, including laying the smackdown on some poor unfortunate bird-men.  And suddenly, the Maidens of Theer appear to assist the mortals again. </p><p>So, Theer is constantly trying to use mortals to do his bidding. And . . . mortals do it.</p><p>Right now, we have the actions of mortals having opened the void, mortals being the point of weakness where the void is able to have access to Norrath.  We have the Staff of Theer reappearing.  We see mortals in direct service of Theer (nice to see you again, Varsoon!).  I think there are factions within the Void with some void creatures working with Theer and others just serving their own native void-goals (This means that some of what we see with the Void relates to Theer's motives and others to the voidbeast motives, which makes sense given what we've seen.). </p><p>I think Theer wants free and he's using mortals to accomplish this.  I think that mortals have freed Anashti and that we are going to free Theer.  I think the whole using of void shards to infuse the portals somehow connects the void to Norrath and that the idea probably originated with Theerian influence.  The gods know this.  They know what they've done to Theer, and they are afraid of him being set loose.  Plus, they pulled away from Norrath because they wanted to come back and "save" mortals so that we were grateful to them and would serve them blindly again.  Only, Norrath did alright without them (cue Gloria Gaynor's I Will Survive).  But, some people do want to blindly serve them again and the gods themselves were pretty weakened by their stunt.  Now they need Norrath too, and are hurting from what they've done and their mortals (that they gave up any influence over by walking out that door!) are inviting their arch-enemy over for tea by void-powering the spires.  And thus you have gods sending champions through the spires to try and stop mortals from building the spires. (Of course, the void-linking could also be a possible way to re-institute planar travel or planar thaumaturgy again, which the gods would REALLY not want).</p><p>I think the Quellthulian Erudites have a lot of knowledge they are keeping to themselves.  They are sneaky major players in Norrathian history.  Miragul, Al'Kabor, Varsoon. . .</p><p>And the elves think they have a major impact upon the world!</p><p>Basically, I think Theer will get free and gives the gods the spanking they deserve.  That whole doomsday calendar?  Totally their fault to begin with cause they threw Theer into the void!</p>

[Foolsfolly]

<p>I was in Teren's Grasp today and noticed that the spires there have a sort of shimmering effect in the large engravings on their sides. Was this shimmering always therem or is this something recent?</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p>It's always been that way.</p>

[Rainmare]

<p>I've said it on jethal's show, and I'll say it again:</p><p>The Erudites NEVER have a full handle on what thier doing.</p><p>they tried to make a magical superweapon, and created the Hole. they tried to make thier own teleportation network, and managed to distort thier entire race and phase out thier continent with Norrath itself.</p><p>Now, they are tampering with the energy of the void, in an attempt to 'fully activate' thier ulterean spire network...which we can guess is reallly named after the planar area/realm they are punching through to get it to work.</p><p>go figure, the denizens don't like it, and are fighting back, and apparently have the full support of the dieties in the endeavor...or as someone thought, the ultera 'plane' is the remenants of the planes that has dematerialized into a blank slate, and the gods don't want mortals mucking about in it.</p><p>the Erudites are never, ever, truthful with others about what they are doing and usually because nine times out of ten they don't even know everything that's going on.</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I've said it on jethal's show, and I'll say it again:</p><p>The Erudites NEVER have a full handle on what thier doing.</p><p>they tried to make a magical superweapon, and created the Hole. they tried to make thier own teleportation network, and managed to distort thier entire race and phase out thier continent with Norrath itself.</p><p>the Erudites are never, ever, truthful with others about what they are doing and usually because nine times out of ten they don't even know everything that's going on.</p></blockquote><p>9 times out of 10, they DO know what they're doing. It's true that they don't explain things to other races, but thats because they look down on other races.</p><p>It's the Gnomes who fail more than them.</p><p>They didn't try to create a superweapon that resulted in The Hole. The Erudites and the Heretics became so entranced in thier war with each other that they unleashed titanic magics that ripped the hole out of the earth and teleported it to Luclin. Both sides were terrified by what they had done, and put a stop to the war immediately.</p><p>They created a teleportation network across Norrath that was destroyed by the cataclysms. The metaphysical changes to thier entire race was INTENTIONAL. I thought it was an accident for the longest time too, but then a developer confirmed it wasn't an accident.</p><p>It was an Erudite who figured out the exact specifications to activate the magical properties of the combine spires and enable us to travel to Luclin in the first place.</p><p>Almost everything that went wrong involving the Erudites was either completely accidental or something beyond thier control. Miragul wasn't perfect. He made a slight miscalculation that trapped his soul in his phylactery while his new lich body roamed his menagerie.</p>