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Foolsfolly

09-18-2009, 01:55 PM

I predict that Erollisi Marr is going to be revived, via the Tinkerbell method.However, it will not be the love and compassion of children all over Norrath which brings her back. Rather, it will be the mourning and regret of her many followers that brings her back! And thus newly infused with negative energies, she will no longer be the goddess of love; she will be the goddess of despair!But of course Norrath already has a god of despair. Erollisi Marr will prompty usurp Rolfron`Zek's demiplane of despair, merge it with her former demiplane of love, and together they will form a new full-plane of despair. Rolfron will be chained up in the basement of the new plane, where he will be used to satiate the part of Erollisi that still remembers love; twisted as that part has now become.Eventually Erollisi and Rolfron will spawn a new race of gothic kobald-men, who will set out to undermine all social order throughout Norrath, thus bringing hopeless despair to mortals and further empowering their goddess.Meanwhile, despondent over the loss of his sister, combined with the many decades of torture he has endured over the course of his godly life, Mithaniel will finally cave under the accumulated pressure and part with all remaining sense of reason. Mithaniel will reshape his Avatar into a female form, declare himself the new goddess of love, and start running around Norrath demanding that mortals love him.Witnessing this disgrace, the Pantheon will quickly decide to put an end to it. They will lock Mithaniel away in Zebuxorruk's old chamber within the Plane of Time.With both the goddess of love and the god of valor now missing from Norrath, and emo kobalds running amuck, the scales of power have been tipped too far towards the dark side. The Tribunal take it upon themselves to set things right again. They petition Tarrew Marr to create a new god, whom they personally train to embrace both love and valor, and also justice. In doing so, they inadvertantly create a god more powerful than both of the Marr twins combined. This new child of Marr will raise an army of frogloks and barbarians, and use them to lead an assault on the plane of despair. This utlimately results in the banishment of Erollisi to the void, and the freeing of Rolfron so he can resume his modest role as a demigod.However this plan backfires, when Erollisi takes over the remnants of Anashti's void empire, and uses the interplanetary void portals to pull strength from the despair of many worlds simultaneously, thus making her the most powerful god in existance!After many failed attempts to restrain Erollisi, the Pantheon is finally forced to admit that even their combined strength is no match for her newfound power. Thus they are forced to try something desperate and stupid...they forcibly merge the new child of Marr with Mithaniel, thus restoring his sanity and power just long enough for him to make a desperate plea to Erollisi to remember what she once was. It works; Erollisi gives up her newfound power, and joins Mithaniel in the prison within the Plane of Time, where they will wrestle with their despair and insanity forever.You read it. You cannot unread it.

Cusashorn

09-19-2009, 01:25 AM

I don't know if you're serious about that post or just making light of things, but there are just so many things that are conceptually wrong... :/However... Rolfron Zek is the demi god of the Forlorn, not dispair.

Foolsfolly

09-19-2009, 03:35 AM

<a href="http://eq2.zam.com/wiki/eq:Rolfron_Zek" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2.zam.com/wiki/eq:Rolfron_Zek</a>Rallos then forged the despair ridden soul into a sword for his new demi-god, Rolfron Zek, the Lord of Despair.<a href="http://everquestlore.wikia.com/wiki/Rolfron_Zek" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://everquestlore.wikia.com/wiki/Rolfron_Zek</a>He is also known as the Hollow God and the Lord of Despair.Just because his name is an anagram does not make him the god of forlorness.As for the rest, it's not a joke, it is my prophecy of what is to come. If you don't like it, prove it can't happen as I've described. Or write your own prediction, and convince me it's better than mine!

Rainmare

09-19-2009, 09:01 AM

Prove it can't happen? that shouldn't be too hard.Rolfron doesn't have a demiplane. like Sullon, talon, and vallon, they all reside in the plane of war/drunder with thier maker, Rallos. (as far as I am aware. I know Sullon has a tower of her own, tallon and valon are often found at Rallos' side.)Mithaniel Marr is lifted from his sorrow and despair after we, in a show of valor, knock some sense into him. he is heading back to Valor to deal with the situation that apparently Ullthoruuk(sp) has caused which resulted in Erollisis's 'Death'. and is no where near close to 'insanity'.It took the combined powers of many of the gods, including the Elemental Gods, to bind Zeb. they can't afford to unleash or probably can't even used that kind of power again yet, as they are newly resotring themselves to norrath as it is, and many cannot even control the etirety of thier own planes. (hence the shards)the Tribunal never have, never will, take sides. in fact, the Plane of Justice is a prison, literally...where they are constantly holding court and trying mortal souls. they would no more plead to Tarew Marr then they would ask Innorruuk to stop spreading Hate. it means nothing to them. they are interested in Justice, not Balance.Again, there are only two instances of a deity/avatar being banished to the void, and one race. and it is mentioned it takes the combined pantheon to do it. and they aren't in a position to be weilding that kind of power just yet. also there are no 'remnants' of Anashti's 'void empire' she still has full control of them, as demonstrated in her avatar fight, and in her deity text about using thier forces to assault the Plane of Health.Only once have dieties 'merged' in the eq universe, and it was the Elemental Gods, who chose to combine thier powers into the form of Quarm. it is unlikely that any deity can be forcibly merged into another. (save demigods, who are simply stripped of the power thier 'parent' god gave them). or I imagine E'ci would have/be trying to force/forced the other two of the Triumverate to merge with her. (she's not known for being overly friendly)And as to the premise that requires Erollisi to become an 'evil' goddess and that Mithaniel is to go 'insane' neither of these events being even remotely likely. Odds are the way she'd return, as her last act was a sacrifice of pure love, is that Tarew will divinely ressurect his daughter and restore her to the pantheon as the Goddess of Love again in reverance to her 'final' act for her twin...adn she'll probably come to us mortals to act as her calvary to aid Mithaniel in Valor, as he faces Hate and Betrayal there. and she will come to us not as the Goddess of Love, in a beutiful form or passion and love...but as the Goddess of the Hunt, in ranger regalia, and ready to kick some rear and take some names.

CraigH

09-19-2009, 12:33 PM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't know if you're serious about that post or just making light of things, but there are just so many things that are conceptually wrong... :/However... Rolfron Zek is the demi god of the Forlorn, not dispair.</blockquote>Forlorn and despair are synonyms. Unless you actually meant "dispair," which means to separate. However, I'm not sure what it would mean to be the demi-god of separation.

Foolsfolly

09-19-2009, 01:44 PM

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Rolfron doesn't have a demiplane. like Sullon, talon, and vallon, they all reside in the plane of war/drunder with thier maker, Rallos. (as far as I am aware. I know Sullon has a tower of her own, tallon and valon are often found at Rallos' side.)</blockquote>Can you cite a source on that? From what I've seen, all demigods have demiplanes. Many of them simply have not been visited by mortals yet.<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>It took the combined powers of many of the gods, including the Elemental Gods, to bind Zeb. they can't afford to unleash or probably can't even used that kind of power again yet, as they are newly resotring themselves to norrath as it is, and many cannot even control the etirety of thier own planes. (hence the shards)</blockquote>It was not the binding that required the power of many gods, it was the defense of the prison against mortals who had become powerful and coordinated enough to kill gods.Cazic has already demonstrated that a single powerful god can restrain a lesser god when he bound Mithaniel before. And Mithaniel is just as weakened as any of the other gods from their ordeal; he should be fairly easily restrained.<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>the Tribunal never have, never will, take sides. in fact, the Plane of Justice is a prison, literally...where they are constantly holding court and trying mortal souls. they would no more plead to Tarew Marr then they would ask Innorruuk to stop spreading Hate. it means nothing to them. they are interested in Justice, not Balance.</blockquote>Justice is synonymous with equity and balance. It's not just about punishing the wicked, it's about maintaining order. The Tribunal are neutral; they do not want evil gods dominating norrath any more than they want good gods dominating. With 2 good gods down, and 1 extra evil god running around, that is sufficient cause for them to take action and restore the balance.<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Again, there are only two instances of a deity/avatar being banished to the void, and one race. and it is mentioned it takes the combined pantheon to do it. and they aren't in a position to be weilding that kind of power just yet. also there are no 'remnants' of Anashti's 'void empire' she still has full control of them, as demonstrated in her avatar fight, and in her deity text about using thier forces to assault the Plane of Health.</blockquote>In the past it has required the combined energies of many gods to open a portal to the void; that's why it makes such a great prison for naughty gods. However, the current presence of void anchors across Norrath clearly make the void much more accessible.While Anashti's current control over void forces is somewhat debatable after players defeated her, it's entirely beside the point. The anchors have been set up which connect many worlds besides Norrath, and an ambitious god should be able to use these connections to leech off the energies of mortals from many worlds simultaneously. Anashti couldn't get much juice from the other worlds since she currently embodies undeath, which is likely scarce on other worlds. But despair is a universal constant, so evil Erollisi would have much to gain.<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Only once have dieties 'merged' in the eq universe, and it was the Elemental Gods, who chose to combine thier powers into the form of Quarm. it is unlikely that any deity can be forcibly merged into another. (save demigods, who are simply stripped of the power thier 'parent' god gave them). or I imagine E'ci would have/be trying to force/forced the other two of the Triumverate to merge with her. (she's not known for being overly friendly)</blockquote>The new child of Marr would likely be willing to sacrifice himself, since it's the only hope of saving the universe from an evil god who has grown out of control. As for Mithaniel, he's presently insane; he's not going to put up much of a fight.E'ci likely does want to merge with the triumvirate, but she's outnumbered 2 to 1, which makes it a no-go. As you pointed out, the gods have to be willing to merge, or victim of massively overwhelming force.

Cusashorn

09-19-2009, 02:09 PM

<cite>Foolsfolly wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>It took the combined powers of many of the gods, including the Elemental Gods, to bind Zeb. they can't afford to unleash or probably can't even used that kind of power again yet, as they are newly resotring themselves to norrath as it is, and many cannot even control the etirety of thier own planes. (hence the shards)</blockquote>It was not the binding that required the power of many gods, it was the defense of the prison against mortals who had become powerful and coordinated enough to kill gods.Cazic has already demonstrated that a single powerful god can restrain a lesser god when he bound Mithaniel before. And Mithaniel is just as weakened as any of the other gods from their ordeal; he should be fairly easily restrained.Cazic Thule *AND* Terris Thule. It was both of them who restrained him, not one or the other.<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>the Tribunal never have, never will, take sides. in fact, the Plane of Justice is a prison, literally...where they are constantly holding court and trying mortal souls. they would no more plead to Tarew Marr then they would ask Innorruuk to stop spreading Hate. it means nothing to them. they are interested in Justice, not Balance.</blockquote>Justice is synonymous with equity and balance. It's not just about punishing the wicked, it's about maintaining order. The Tribunal are neutral; they do not want evil gods dominating norrath any more than they want good gods dominating. With 2 good gods down, and 1 extra evil god running around, that is sufficient cause for them to take action and restore the balance.The Tribunal is the best embodiment of concept of Lawful Neutral in the Norrathian Pantheon. They do not care about Balance. only Justice, as Rainmare stated. They punish mortals based on the crimes commited against their own cultures. Obviously, murdering someone in Neriak is nothing special, since it's part of their culture to backstab others, both figuratively and literally, whereas murdering someone in Kelethin is still murder regardless of the intention. If they cared about balance, then pretty much every Dark Elf, Ogre, Troll, and Iksar in history would be sentenced to punishment for murder. They do not, and will not get themselves involved in the affairs of the other gods. They're not the police who arrest these criminals, just the judges who determine if you're guilty or innocent. If there were Laws put in place by the gods themselves that only the gods had to follow, then the gods themselves would then be subject to their rulings to whether they commited a crime or not. If this were the case, then Rallos Zek would have been sentenced for the crimes of trying to obliterate the face of Norrath (with Solusek Ro as an accomplice), Taking over the Plane of Earth, Blowing up Luclin (with Solusek Ro as an accomplice again,) or trying to take over Norrath with his races (again, with Solusek Ro as an accomplice.. or at least his avatar if nothing else.)<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Only once have dieties 'merged' in the eq universe, and it was the Elemental Gods, who chose to combine thier powers into the form of Quarm. it is unlikely that any deity can be forcibly merged into another. (save demigods, who are simply stripped of the power thier 'parent' god gave them). or I imagine E'ci would have/be trying to force/forced the other two of the Triumverate to merge with her. (she's not known for being overly friendly)</blockquote>The new child of Marr would likely be willing to sacrifice himself, since it's the only hope of saving the universe from an evil god who has grown out of control. As for Mithaniel, he's presently insane; he's not going to put up much of a fight.E'ci likely does want to merge with the triumvirate, but she's outnumbered 2 to 1, which makes it a no-go. As you pointed out, the gods have to be willing to merge, or victim of massively overwhelming force.Who are you to claim that Mithanial Marr has lost his sanity? You can't make such claims just because he freaked out ONCE over her death. As for E'Ci. The Triumverate of Water Elemental Gods are each separate gods with separate personalities, and at the same time are also one god united. They don't have to merge with each other into one entity (except when representing themselves as a physical avatar, like in the Plane of Water,) to be one entity. Their rule over the 3 physical forms of the element of water unites them already as it is.</blockquote>

Rainmare

09-19-2009, 02:22 PM

None of the Zek family seem to have demi planes. Tallon and Vallon are in Drunder, planning nad coordinating attacks. Sullon's rage was so great from EQ1 that as far as we know, she is still locked away in a tower. Gorynn(sp) Zek, the same from the Mythical Brusier weapon, was/is the Champion of the Arena's in the plane of War/Drunder. Rallos himself resides there as well. it's much easier to believe that Rolfron simply, like the other Zek demigods, inhabit's his 'father's plane in some part of it. (EQ1 Drunder has Tallon and Vallon there. Gorynn is said in the bruiser epic line what/where he was, Sullon was from an eq1 expansion where you had to find out how Rallos kept her locked in the tower)They state in teh Plane of Time that it was the Binding of Zeb into his prision that left them all so horribly drained that we were able to defeat them. We basically came in right after the bound him, and they are angry/shocked/dismay that we breached into Time at the worst possible moment for them.And Cazic did not bind mith marr on his own. I believe Cazic/Terris/and possibly Inny all worked together to bind Mithaniel, and that's when he was basically little more then a newborn god. Mith Marr and Inny have battled before to a stalemate. (I believe this is told in the Malevolence story, that's how inny lost the blade was during a battle with Mithaniel)Justice in not synonymous with balance. what is justice for me, may not be for you. it is based on ideaology. we see it in the real world in modern times. in singapore, caning is a perfectly acceptable form of enacting justice. in the middle east, stealing can get your hand cut off. both of these would be/are considered a outrage in the US, and are 'cruel and unusual'. that is even the case now. 'evil' deities (if you include demigods in the equation) signifigantly outnumber 'good deities. yet we see no outrage or requests from the Tribunal.and it's been stated before on the Void that the other Gods FEAR it. they threw Anashti and Theer in there, and both times they had to combine thier power to do so. the reason Anasthi can't siphon power like your suggesting is that the void consumes those worlds into oblivion. there's nothing left of those worlds. even the chunks of earth in the void are swirling around and towards that 'black hole'. even the void men in Palace, when they die, they say 'I go the way of all things' and thier fighting cry is 'the end is not Death, but Oblivion!' they are trying to avoid oblivion by getting out of the Void. nothing in there WANTS to be in there or wants to stay in there once it is. Even Theer, arugably the most powerful being in existance outside the Nameless itself, wants OUT of the void, and hasn't been able to 'harness' the anchors to do it. the anchors are just that, anchors. they consume what they are attached to into the void, tearing it apart in teh process (as witnessed with Kurn's Tower) so world consumed by the void are just that...consumed. there's nothing left of them.Your basing much of this on the idea that sometime between SoL and E.Marrs possible return that Mithaniel will go insane. your also assuming that if E.marr came back 'tainted' to teh pantheon, that she'd be able to best Rolfron for his 'demigod' status. Rolfron may rule despair, but he ia still a brutal, powerful, blooodthirsty and savage warrior of the highest caliber, or he wouldn't have caught Rallos' eye in the first place. I doubt a newly rebirthed E.marr could best the veteran and seasoned Rolfron to 'usurp' him.Mithaniel is in full control of his mental state after the shard of love encounter. even during the shard of love encounter, he's not insane, he's just depressed and overcome with grief.

Liched

09-19-2009, 02:59 PM

Some notes from the Froglok Creation stories:<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>And Cazic did not bind mith marr on his own. I believe Cazic/Terris/and possibly Inny all worked together to bind Mithaniel, and that's when he was basically little more then a newborn god. Mith Marr and Inny have battled before to a stalemate. (I believe this is told in the Malevolence story, that's how inny lost the blade was during a battle with Mithaniel)</blockquote><h3>From Pond to Paladin Vol. I-II</h3><a href="http://www.lorelibrary.com/?page=book&bid=170">http://www.lorelibrary.com/?page=book&bid=170</a>'While Erollisi fended off the advances of Innoruuk's mortal agents, the forces of Cazic-Thule beset her twin brother, Mithaniel Marr. Serpents, phantoms, and all manner of frightful creatures conjured and commanded by Cazic-Thule mortal minions came to Mithaniel to assault his body and mind. Mithaniel was no mortal however, and his will was strong, the minions of Thule could not instill within him the fear of their dark lord. They did succeed however, in luring the brave Mithaniel to the swamps of Norrath, the deadly, dank, lands where the creatures of Cazic-Thule were the strongest and most numerous. An army of Trolls, Lizard Folk, and forgotten creatures of unspeakable horror beset Mithaniel Marr, and so it came to pass that he became a captive to the minions of the Lord of Fear. Mithaniel, imprisoned in magical bonds provided to his captors by Cazic-Thule, and tortured by relentless monstrosities, prayed to his father day and night for forgiveness and salvation. The prayers continued, unanswered, until the brave God, weary from torture and weakened by the dark magic of Cazic-Thule fell into a deep slumber. It was then that Terris-Thule visited the slumbering God to inflict his sleep with nightmares more horrible than the events he had endured at the hands of his captors during his waking hours. However, at the beseeching of her father, Cazic-Thule, Terris was not permitted to inflict such terror onto Mithaniel Marr until after she first deceived him through his dreams and stole the gift of life from his body. So Terris did as her father commanded and then the slumbering horrors began.'........'Morell-Thule, the forsaken son of Cazic, and brother of Terris, took notice of Terris manipulations of the slumbering God, for while Terris is the Queen of Nightmares, Morell is the King of Dreams. For reasons unknown, perhaps simply to foul the plans of his wicked father and sister, Morell-Thule stole the gift of life that had been taken from the slumbering Mithaniel and escaped into his Demi-Plane of Dreams. Knowing that his enraged family would soon visit his home, Morell divided Mithaniel's Gift of Life, scattering one half across all the swamps of Norrath, the sacred lands of his father, Cazic-Thule. Where Mithaniel�s Gift of Life fell upon the swamps of Norrath, the first Froglok Tads were born. Those first Tads had the hardest trials of our people. Until that point, the swamps belonged only to the foul and destructive creatures of the dark gods. Fortunately the gift of life that had brought our first ancestors into being also empowered them with the bravery and valor Mithaniel Marr had exhibited during his trials in the mortal realms.'

Foolsfolly

09-19-2009, 06:15 PM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Foolsfolly wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>the Tribunal never have, never will, take sides. in fact, the Plane of Justice is a prison, literally...where they are constantly holding court and trying mortal souls. they would no more plead to Tarew Marr then they would ask Innorruuk to stop spreading Hate. it means nothing to them. they are interested in Justice, not Balance.</blockquote>Justice is synonymous with equity and balance. It's not just about punishing the wicked, it's about maintaining order. The Tribunal are neutral; they do not want evil gods dominating norrath any more than they want good gods dominating. With 2 good gods down, and 1 extra evil god running around, that is sufficient cause for them to take action and restore the balance.The Tribunal is the best embodiment of concept of Lawful Neutral in the Norrathian Pantheon. They do not care about Balance. only Justice, as Rainmare stated. They punish mortals based on the crimes commited against their own cultures. Obviously, murdering someone in Neriak is nothing special, since it's part of their culture to backstab others, both figuratively and literally, whereas murdering someone in Kelethin is still murder regardless of the intention. If they cared about balance, then pretty much every Dark Elf, Ogre, Troll, and Iksar in history would be sentenced to punishment for murder. They do not, and will not get themselves involved in the affairs of the other gods. They're not the police who arrest these criminals, just the judges who determine if you're guilty or innocent. If there were Laws put in place by the gods themselves that only the gods had to follow, then the gods themselves would then be subject to their rulings to whether they commited a crime or not. If this were the case, then Rallos Zek would have been sentenced for the crimes of trying to obliterate the face of Norrath (with Solusek Ro as an accomplice), Taking over the Plane of Earth, Blowing up Luclin (with Solusek Ro as an accomplice again,) or trying to take over Norrath with his races (again, with Solusek Ro as an accomplice.. or at least his avatar if nothing else.)</blockquote></blockquote>Well said. However, the gods exist within a culture set up by the Nameless, in which they all counterbalance eachother so that none of them ever grows too powerful. The cataclysms caused by the gods and the daily murders in neriak are all just proper counters to other events.However, having 1 god removed from service and another turned to the dark side, that disrupts the order of things and allows for the evil gods to gain too much power. Love and virtue have been supported by the gods for a long time, and they must continue to be supported if everything is to balance out.

Meirril

09-22-2009, 03:57 AM

<cite>Foolsfolly wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well said. However, the gods exist within a culture set up by the Nameless, in which they all counterbalance eachother so that none of them ever grows too powerful. The cataclysms caused by the gods and the daily murders in neriak are all just proper counters to other events.However, having 1 god removed from service and another turned to the dark side, that disrupts the order of things and allows for the evil gods to gain too much power. Love and virtue have been supported by the gods for a long time, and they must continue to be supported if everything is to balance out.</blockquote>Point of order: The Nameless is responsable for the elemental gods. All of the lesser dieites are the work of the elemental gods. The Nameless started the ball rolling, but he didn't dictate any of his creation's actions after he created them and gave them their first commandments.

Liched

09-22-2009, 04:31 AM

<cite>Foolsfolly wrote:</cite><blockquote>However, having 1 god removed from service and another turned to the dark side, that disrupts the order of things and allows for the evil gods to gain too much power. Love and virtue have been supported by the gods for a long time, and they must continue to be supported if everything is to balance out.</blockquote>Maybe the nameless is balancing out us, taking our Plane of Health god and replacing him with an opposite might sway our destiny of becoming god like and ruining all his system. In this microcosm we are the only beings to have true free will, we're kind of invaders in his well thought out universe.